# of Forms - deserves it's own thread.

[MightyB]

Never mind the politics. The issue of the number of forms is an interesting one. Besides the weapons forms, which empty hand forms encapsulate the essence of 7* Praying Mantis? You wouldn't think that more than half a dozen is necessary.

One should never look down on "beginner sets". There is a good reason they are the foundation practices.

Good topic for discussion. It doesn't need to be buried in that other thread.

[MightyB]

You need one - it's "Sub Sa Lo" (I always spell it wrong). I've outlined my rationale in other posts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not a PM man, nor have I ever studied Norther PM, but having done MA for over 30 years and having gone through numerous forms in Kyokushin, ITF TKD, Hung Kuen, WC, SPM I can say this:
You don't need them at all.
That said, forms are great fun, if you enjoy them.
At one point I knew about 50 forms and 4 different sanchin forms, LOL !
Nowadays I train 3 forms only - 2 types of Sanchin and the Iron wire.
The rest is freestyle.

[DBAC]

For myself, I feel that I only need a few forms and those forms are ones that I feel cater to my fighting style and methods of conditioning.

For my students, I feel that it is important to pass on all the forms I know.

Who am I to say what forms are necessary. Everyone has a different approach to fighting, so I say that I will give a person all of the tools in the toolbox and focus on teaching them how best to use those tools. Then they can decide which tools are right for them.

[EarthDragon]

As I said in he other thread, (PS sorry it got derailed by the 9 post new guy) I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?

forms are great for telling your story, adding your flavor.

Balance, flexabilty, speed, timing, agility, and cardio are by products.

If you can apply the movements found in your styles forms in combat or in training then how many different ways do you need to reach to same goal?

everthing lse is just for show and collecting

[YouKnowWho]

When you learn a new form, you have to ask yourself, what will this new form help you? What will you miss if you don't learn this new form? Many school had integrated froms from other style. The Nanking CMA Institute and the Shanghai Chinwoo school all integrated Kung Li Chuan from the Kung Li system as their basic training form. Why waste time to learn that form? If you can just scrach the surface of the Kung Li style, it's not going to help you very much.

If you go through elementary school 6 times, you won't get a PhD degree. If you just take one class from college, you won't get your BS/BA degree either.

[MightyB]

came about when a video production client gave me a book called "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong. It's not a technique book. It's just a book that describes the aftermath of violent crimes. It apparently is the same training that police use to understand and deal with sudden violence.

One thing that becomes apparent IMO is that martial arts training as it is currently being trained (sport or traditional) isn't effective for self defense. It's great for focus, spiritual, balance, health... etc, but it's not good self defense- it can be, but it requires a huge mental shift and approach. Read the book for more info.

Anyway- one solid form. Be aggressive in defense. Don't worry about injuries to yourself. K.I.S.S. I think Sub Sa Lo handles this very well for 7* Mantis.

[MightyB]

this isn't to say that I don't respect the system or all of the forms. I just feel that it's not all that necessary to focus on learning all of the forms.

[MightyB]

For myself, I feel that I only need a few forms and those forms are ones that I feel cater to my fighting style and methods of conditioning.

For my students, I feel that it is important to pass on all the forms I know.

Who am I to say what forms are necessary. Everyone has a different approach to fighting, so I say that I will give a person all of the tools in the toolbox and focus on teaching them how best to use those tools. Then they can decide which tools are right for them.

You sound a lot like my Sifu and it's a great teaching philosophy.
----
One thing I should mention... I don't plan on being a Mantis Sifu, so my outlook and approach is definitely unique to me.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't plan on being a Mantis Sifu, so my outlook and approach is definitely unique to me.

Agree on this! Since I no longer want to be a Longfist teacher, I don't teach or train Longfist forms any more (I think Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming is doing a goog job - we share the same Longfist teacher). I had combined all my Longfist form into 1 form, "長拳摘要(Chang Chuan Zhai Yao)". Today I don't even train or teach that form. Today the only thing that I train is "60 different drills".

[mooyingmantis]

MightyB,
Glad to see someone beat me to this. I get tired of sounding like Capt. Continual Questions. :) I'm sure some peeps must think that I don't have anyone else to talk to except the KFO forums. Not true, the voices in my head keep me very busy! :cool:

I teach four mantis forms:

Beng Bu - it covers the twelve keywords
Lanjie - as the name implies, it covers intercepting
Ba Zhou - it emphasizes short power from the core
Diao Fa - it summarizes the trademark clawing and hooking methods

If I were to add another it would be Da Fanche or Xiao Fanche to emphasize long arm attacks.

[YouKnowWho]

Lanjie - as the name implies, it covers intercepting.

The 2nd move of this form, "五打連環劈(Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) is a very important intermediate training method in the 7 star Mantis system. It forces you to use your body to pull your arm up, down, left, right, and forward (body pull limbs). You don't see that in the Beng Bu. This's why this form is so important in the Mantis intermediate level training. You only see the body move and you don't see the limbs moves. This Shenfa is quite different from the Karate downward or upward block that you only see the arm move and you don't see the body move.

[mooyingmantis]

The 2nd move of this form, "五打連環劈(Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) is a very important intermediate training method in the 7 star Mantis system. It forces you you to use your body to pull your arm up, down, left, right, and forward. You don't see that in the Beng Bu. This's why this form is so important in the Mantis intermediate level training.

Not all 7* schools include that in their Lanjie. :( Though it is found in TJPM, TJMHPM and CCKTJPM. CCKTJPM actually has lengthened it to more than 5 moves (10 moves if memory serves me correctly).

Though excellent point about Five Strike Continuous Circle Splitting (五打連環劈(Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) YouKnowWho!

[chusauli]

At one time I learned over a dozen mantis sets... eventually, I forgot most of them except Beng Bu and Shi Ba Shou. I still play Beng Bu a lot for fun, or if people want to see fancy gung fu, rather than ugly WCK, and I don't feel like doing Hung Kuen.

The 3 Mei Hua sets are good.

The Zai Yao sets are good also.

Tang Lang Chu Dong is also very good.

I have learned too many forms. Its better to have the essence in one set.

[YouKnowWho]

CCKTJPM actually has lengthened it to more than 5 moves (10 moves if memory serves me correctly).

I saw Mantis master 孫德隆(Sun De Long) did that. I think he combined "左右二陰陽(Zuo You Er Yin Yang) - left and right double circles" and then added a forward 陰陽(Yin Yang) at the end. Nothing wrong with that. It balanced pretty good too.


The Zai Yao sets are good also.
It was so funny that Mantis system tried to use Zai Yao to summarize (draw conclusion) all their information in their last form. They ended up with more than one Zai Yao (summary) instead.

Same reason as the last Harry Potter movie will end with 2 movies. It may be too long to be in one movie, or the movie company just tried to make more money out of it toward the end.

[LaterthanNever]

"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?

Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of "this alone is not enough"..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.

This isn't to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient...

But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the "what if" factor pops up. "What if" being "well..what if this doesn't work..I need to have option B".

[iunojupiter]

Maybe it's me, but I don't believe more forms equals more techniques to apply to different situations. Shouldn't the techniques you've learned be applicable to multiple situations? My teacher always stresses that every movement in a form has multiple variations of the movement, slight alterations, and that each of those variations has multiple applications depending on what your opponent sends your way.
And in a fight of equals, isn't it really down to each fighter's skill level, not how many techniques they know?

My sifu always quotes to us that "A jack of all trades is a master of none" when someone asks how many techniques should they learn and how many forms do we need.

But, like I said, I consider myself a novice, so... just my two cents. :D

Cheers!
~josh~

[LaterthanNever]

Josh,

"Shouldn't the techniques you've learned be applicable to multiple situations?"

Yes..of course! But that's STILL not the reason why someone learns more than one form.

No form by itself even with said techniques being applicable to multiple situations, is going to contain all applications.

That's the reason why other forms are developed in the first place!

[MightyB]

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?



Honestly - I'd have no problem fighting someone who claims to know 1000 forms. Doesn't matter because in no way does number of forms learned or known effect one's ability to apply the material.

You have to be able to apply a technique under extreme stress. And forget any notion of "for the street" because all martial arts sport and traditional are poor excuses for self defense in a real life or death violent encounter.

The only thing that can save you is an escape plan, mental preparation, planning and drilling your escape plan with your family, an understanding of the criminal MO (violent criminals are accomplished liars and recidivists meaning they intend to rape and torture your loved ones and kill you so do not believe them when they say do this and you won't get hurt), a complete focus on escape coupled with the notion that injury is to be expected and not feared (you're going to be stabbed and shot while you escape)...

Anyway - got sidetracked... Forms are fun, you can find value in combination set ups through analyzing a form. There's no magic skill that comes from the number of forms you know. After about 3 to 5 empty hand forms, it's all redundant and you won't get anything new - take it from me, I've been taught around 50 or so forms, not saying I remember them all.

And - the most boring form of all is probably the best.

[SoCo KungFu]

"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?

Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of "this alone is not enough"..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.

This isn't to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient...

But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the "what if" factor pops up. "What if" being "well..what if this doesn't work..I need to have option B".

My no forms would beat your many forms like an out of work h00ker.

[Eric Hunstad]

How many forms do you need?

It depends on your goals.

If your goal is perfection of the mind, body, and spirit, the more the merrier.

If your goal is combat alone, you don't need any.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[YouKnowWho]

I like this combo very much - hook punch, turn back/spin kick, back fist.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

It's not in any of the forms that I know. Sometime I wonder whether we should try to take combo out of the forms, or just create combo by using our "common sense".

[LaterthanNever]

"My no forms would beat your many forms like an out of work h00ker"

Do I detect an inappropriate aura of arrogance in these words?

That's a pretty strong statement towards someone you've never met before.


Unless you are either the "Jon Funk is a fraud" Troll or the "Nam Anh" Troll in disguise?:rolleyes: (unless maybe they are the same person).

[Kevin73]

If you look at okinawan karate (more documenation and a little more recent than many kung fu styles) you will see that originally, instructors only had 1 or 2 forms/kata. The rest was two person drills and lots of basics. The forms/katas were a system in and of itself.

If you wanted to learn more skills in an area, you would go to that instructor and learn those skills and a form/kata that emphasized those skills. Eventually instructors started to collect those forms/katas to preserve them.

Gichin Funakoshi attempted to collect many of the forms from Shuri-Te and preserve and pass them on. Mabuni collected all of the shuri-te and naha-te forms and put them in his style (around 50 kata). Some of these forms are VERY close to each other and the material is found in other places, do you really need to incorporate them? Nope, the material is already in there and the only reason is to give students more busy work to keep them happy.

I think the commercialization of the martial arts is what lead to the more is better. It gives someone tons of material to keep working on and coming back for more. Most people would rather keep learning new stuff than working on what they have to master it. Add to the fact that not everyone studies a martial art to be a fighter and you keep adding stuff for them to practice.

I think also, some forms are redundant, in that they are replaced by other forms later on in the system. I have heard of some kung fu styles that a beginner would learn a certain form, and then at the intermediate level would learn a very similiar form with some more advanced principles/concepts to it. Then finally, a third form would be learned with more additional material. So, you would have in this case 3 forms even though by the advanced level you would drop the first two in practice since the lessons are replicated.

[MightyB]

I like this combo very much - hook punch, turn back/spin kick, back fist.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

It's not in any of the forms that I know. Sometime I wonder whether we should try to take combo out of the forms, or just create combo by using our "common sense".

That's basically how my Sifu teaches. He'll find good combos and set ups in the forms and then drills them.

He always says that the best way to analyze the application in a form if I'm unsure and because I live too far away to ask is to go back a couple of movements to an app that I know and then follow it's progression to the move in question. He said that all of the forms are basically combination chains where one move builds upon the previous.

IMO - I think it's probably the most fun way to make sense out of the forms.

[Codeboy]

Heheh, good point Mighty B. You should see the way Sifu trains techniques these days. More organized and more repetition. Good stuff. More simplicity too. Pak sao, diu sao. A key to a lot of things is repetition, repetition, repetition!

[EarthDragon]

laterthannver
"I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what's the point?"

Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?

There is NO martial art that was desgined to fight against itself so your point is irrelavant. So no I do not see the problem arsing. however If your point even ficticious was that one needs more forms to fight because of someone knowing the same forms and youi need to learn 10 more (and mind you this would never happen) but then it would come down to speed skill and strength and how good of a fighter you were, not but knowing another set.

My shifu always all you need to do is master 1 block and 1 punch. Everything else you train for is just extras

[LaterthanNever]

"If you wanted to learn more skills in an area, you would go to that instructor and learn those skills and a form/kata that emphasized those skills."

TA-DAAA!!!! Someone finally gets it :) If someone wanted to learn more SKILLS in that area. The fact that many kung fu styles have "Beginning, Intermediate and Advanced forms" it indicitive of that dynamic. It's not possible to learn advanced material and applications in the first form. Were this not so..there would be no "intermediate" or "advanced" forms.


"I think the commercialization of the martial arts is what lead to the more is better. It gives someone tons of material to keep working on and coming back for more. Most people would rather keep learning new stuff than working on what they have to master it. "

Too true! And I don't mean that one should add forms just for the sake of adding them. I merely mean it is possible to master more than one form.



"I think also, some forms are redundant, in that they are replaced by other forms later on in the system. I have heard of some kung fu styles that a beginner would learn a certain form, and then at the intermediate level would learn a very similiar form with some more advanced principles/concepts to it. Then finally, a third form would be learned with more additional material. So, you would have in this case 3 forms even though by the advanced level you would drop the first two in practice since the lessons are replicated."


Indeed again. Some forms are totally redundant. Lets say that even in an advanced form..you would still get 1/10th the material you learned in the first form, but you would still get added material that just was not privy to a beginner or intermediate. Look at Ying Jow Pai(eagle claw). If you look at the Chin-Na(seize and control joint locks) of what a student learns at the beginning..they are wrist and arm locks..as one progresses(hence..going away from a beginner)..they learn more advanced Chin-Na such as throat locks, leg locks, and supposedly at the upper level of the final 108 locks of General Ngok Fei locks that are designed to kill.

Thus it is the same concept with forms.

[mooyingmantis]

As our friend Bawang might say: More forms = more monies. In other words, keep em busy, keep em paying. This is how the McDojos do it.

Though I do respect the ideas of collecting forms as a way to preserve the arts.

As a self-defense/street emphasis teacher I believe less is more. I teach forms to preserve principles of fighting. My students learn fighting through drilling and FIGHTING. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Though I do respect the ideas of collecting forms as a way to preserve the arts.

It's easy to do in nowdays. Just record all your forms and you will never have to train those forms any more. The day before you want to teach that form, you just look at your DVD again.

[mantis108]

Form(s) should at least "speak" something of your system thus it/they should never be just a bundle or packaging of techniques. Seed forms of a system address not only the fundamentals of the system but also the training methodology. It should also express cosmological viewpoint; hence, it is both metaphysical and pragmatic in nature. More advanced forms should be building on the seed forms and transcend the fundamentals. The system is then transformed into an artful expression of the proponent but not a mere set of functional principles and rules.

Mantis108