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DBAC
09-14-2010, 02:54 PM
"Sho'Nuff"!

But seriously, I created this thread to avoid taking another one further off topic. I was curious about how some people view the word "Master" as a title. On that same note, how do you translate "Sifu"?

Three Harmonies
09-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Sifu is cantonese for the Mandarin Shifu. Literally = teacher-father. Meant to denote when one has been "adopted" into the martial family. Here in the west silly white men, and Chinese who want to profit, use the term loosely in an effort to stroke ego.

In general I avoid anyone who refers to themselves as "master."

JAB

mooyingmantis
09-14-2010, 03:10 PM
What Jake said!

Though I do like it when my wife calls me the "MASTERBLASTER"!

EarthDragon
09-14-2010, 03:14 PM
shifu as Jake said teacher/father.... you can have this term for cooking painting, or any skill, not just MA

Master again in any skill but it means you have learned all thier is to learn and cannot learn anymore.

mooyingmantis
09-14-2010, 06:02 PM
From what I have seen locally it is the TKD schools that abuse the "master" title. Once you turn a 4th degree bb in TKD you can call yourself a "master".

None of the kung fu guys I personally know use the term master.

My Sifu didn't even expect us to call him "sifu". And I have carried on that tradition. My students, if adults, call me Richard. Kids just call me "Mr. Tolson".

Three Harmonies
09-15-2010, 07:12 AM
"Masterblaster" That is some funny **** Richard!:D:D

MightyB
09-15-2010, 07:40 AM
"Sho'Nuff"!

But seriously, I created this thread to avoid taking another one further off topic. I was curious about how some people view the word "Master" as a title. On that same note, how do you translate "Sifu"?

From my limited understanding: "Sifu" is a two-way street, meaning that you have to be accepted as a student by that person in order to call that person Sifu.

Dragonzbane76
09-15-2010, 07:55 AM
don't mind sifu or teacher, but "master" has to many "attachements" to it. I generally stay away from people whom proclaim themselves "masters"

I really don't care if your an 80 year old oriental looking fellow that has been in every style ever taught, master is just a term that is not that favorable with me. each to there own but just my thoughts.

and honestly can anyone say they have mastered something, NO there is always more to learn.

Iron_Eagle_76
09-15-2010, 08:40 AM
don't mind sifu or teacher, but "master" has to many "attachements" to it. I generally stay away from people whom proclaim themselves "masters"

I really don't care if your an 80 year old oriental looking fellow that has been in every style ever taught, master is just a term that is not that favorable with me. each to there own but just my thoughts.

and honestly can anyone say they have mastered something, NO there is always more to learn.

You keep saying things like this and the "Masters" will send their minions out after you!:D

ShaolinDan
09-15-2010, 08:45 AM
I think a lot of schools just translate 'Sigong' as 'Master' for the sake of the public. I agree it's loaded with connotations, but grand-teacher/father doesn't have such a great ring to it in English either.

I think calling oneself master and being called master by one's students/grand-students are two different things. A lot of the time it's the students who write the websites. :)

Dragonzbane76
09-15-2010, 09:42 AM
You keep saying things like this and the "Masters" will send their minions out after you!

Oh I will relish the day... ;)

yu shan
09-15-2010, 01:35 PM
I think of my teaching style more like a coach, so I like Jiao Lian. But I have nice students who call me Shifu.

Three Harmonies
09-15-2010, 04:08 PM
What I find amusing is white people, in the west, straining to use Chinese terms and language!? No other activity does such silliness! Could you imagine a Mongolian trying to teach baseball in Mongolia using English just because the sport was founded in America!? Communicate in the native tongue. Here in the US "Mr." is a sign of respect, or like Jim said "coach" (the English version). "Teacher" is fine no?

JAB

DBAC
09-15-2010, 09:45 PM
What I find amusing is white people, in the west, straining to use Chinese terms and language!? No other activity does such silliness! Could you imagine a Mongolian trying to teach baseball in Mongolia using English just because the sport was founded in America!? Communicate in the native tongue. Here in the US "Mr." is a sign of respect, or like Jim said "coach" (the English version). "Teacher" is fine no?

JAB

You compare your Kung Fu to a sport? How sad...

A teacher using the language of their arts origin is not as silly as you believe. Most aspects of any CMA are very difficult to translate into English. What I find amusing are those who attempt to translate everything into English. More often then not they miss the point and intent behind the original terminology.

As for the question of Master and Sifu (all of my romanization is for Cantonese) I find that the title of Master in a martial arts school is generally held to a different standard than when it is used in other Western fields. This seems especially true for people already involved in martial arts. While titles such as Master Plumber connote expertise in a field or titles such as High Master are honorific and denote a level of authority, there is no usage of the word as a title or adjective that means your expertise is complete. This understanding seems to be reserved for Martial Arts, and even then strictly amongst those already heavily involved.

Perhaps this is because too many have come through the Western world with the title of Master, claiming to know it all, and thus the negative connotation in this field. But as far as the accepted usage of the word across the Western world, the Chinese term "Sifu", both as functional and honorific, translates well into "Master".

Syn7
09-15-2010, 10:57 PM
yeah, master was a term dicsiples used, no??? since they turned their lives over to their sifu... like a vassal would call his lord 'master', a dicsiple would call his sifu 'master'... but a regular student wouldnt be a vassal hence not calling him a master... i dunno, i could be wrong, i know it was like that in other parts of the world...

Three Harmonies
09-16-2010, 07:19 AM
DBAC - Ohhh, you cannot read and comprehend so well. How sad! I did not compare "my" anything to a sport, I used a sports analogy to illustrate a point about language. Read a bit more carefully before unleashing your little fingers to type away!

My main teachers have told me that the term "Shifu" is never used in China. Lasohi = teacher was about as formal as they got.

JAB

MightyB
09-16-2010, 07:53 AM
"Sifu" is a title and an acknowledgement of respect in the HK martial arts community. Unfortunately it is often misused in America. For instance, to be a living breathing and practicing martial artist - "Sifu" is about as high as you can go and it takes a long time to get there. "Sigung" is ultra rare - a "Sijo" is reserved for the Creator of the system. It's also a post humus title. I find it laughable when someone calls them self a "Sijo". How the F*** can that be? Anyway. Now throw in your martial aunts and uncles, your "Sitai" and "Sibok". and don't forget your martial mother "Simo"...

It's best to use the English term "Master" to show respect to someone outside of your system if you respect them. Otherwise it's "Mister". Use the Cantonese terminology within your school with your Sifu and his friends and use the titles that they are comfortable with.

DBAC
09-16-2010, 08:41 AM
DBAC - Ohhh, you cannot read and comprehend so well. How sad! I did not compare "my" anything to a sport, I used a sports analogy to illustrate a point about language. Read a bit more carefully before unleashing your little fingers to type away!

JAB

I see it doesn't take much to get you riled up.

TenTigers
09-16-2010, 10:02 AM
My main teachers have told me that the term "Shifu" is never used in China. Lasohi = teacher was about as formal as they got.

JAB
Every Sifu I know from Mainland as well as Hong Kong use the title Sifu.
They also call the cabbies, bus drivers, etc., "Sifu" as well....

bawang
09-16-2010, 10:47 AM
adopted father is personal and is family relationship. master is impersonal master/slave relationship. the small difference in attitude means student is easier to control and exploit.
this is good in america anyways because 1. most americans westernized people dont feel comfortable getting personal 2. the american family is broken, most people dont understand what real family is. "teacher father" is meaningless and doesnt ilicit the same emotional response 3. many americans are racist and only joined kung fu because its kewl. and since most kung fu schools are all whites now they dont find it intimidating. 4. most teachers want nothing to do with their students just wanna make money.

to a land where 50% of the peoples concept of father is someone who used to visits once a month and takes him out to mcdonalds, then after teen years never see again. teacher-father is meaningless

Lucas
09-16-2010, 01:10 PM
i never cared what i called my teachers. i just follow suite and call them what they prefer or what everyone else calls them. it doesnt really matter. im just there to learn fighting....im a barbarian.

YouKnowWho
09-16-2010, 02:17 PM
I have never heard the term "Sifu" used in Taiwan. I also have never heard the tem "internal" used in Taiwan either. Both "Sifu" and "internal" are popular words used in US today. People love to throw out words such as "internal power", "internal structure", "internal alinment", "internal connection", ... as if the word "internal" can change everything.

This is one of my favor jokes:

There are only 2 kind of people on earth. Those who train "internal", and those who wish they train "internal".

Three Harmonies
09-16-2010, 02:55 PM
Good points John and BWang!

Ten Tigers - To each their own, but the HK scene that I have been exposed to over here are very monetary motivated, for what it is worth.

JAB

bawang
09-16-2010, 04:52 PM
Good points John and BWang!

Ten Tigers - To each their own, but the HK scene that I have been exposed to over here are very monetary motivated, for what it is worth.

JAB

honk kong is the source of the corruption

Tainan Mantis
09-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Could you imagine a Mongolian trying to teach baseball in Mongolia using English just because the sport was founded in America!?

Uhh..yes I can.
In Taiwan they use a lot of American words in baseball, same as in Japan. So I don't think Mongolia would differ so much if they played the game.

Homerun becomes Hompu ruun.
OF course, they also have the regulation Chinese words, but I love the sound of English words turned into Chinese.

ironfenix
09-16-2010, 11:21 PM
In mexico its "hon ron" (own ron), and "pee chair", "ka chair", and "bateador". And we use no-kaut for knockout in boxing. Hello to kevin and all!

Dragonzbane76
09-17-2010, 03:34 AM
I have never heard the term "Sifu" used in Taiwan. I also have never heard the tem "internal" used in Taiwan either. Both "Sifu" and "internal" are popular words used in US today. People love to throw out words such as "internal power", "internal structure", "internal alinment", "internal connection", ... as if the word "internal" can change everything.

This is one of my favor jokes:

There are only 2 kind of people on earth. Those who train "internal", and those who wish they train "internal".

because idiots like to throw words around that they have no comprehension of.

Three Harmonies
09-17-2010, 07:20 AM
Kevin
That is basically Chinese-ifying an English word, not exactly what I was describing.
JAB

Tainan Mantis
09-17-2010, 11:23 AM
I have never heard the term "Sifu" used in Taiwan. I also have never heard the tem "internal" used in Taiwan either.


My motorcycle mechanic was a shifu as was the cook in the restuaruant.
(Here "fu" is not the character for father).

Internal
Very often have I heard those who do nei jia quan say the words 'nei jia quan' or just 'nei jia.'

But, I agree about 'internal' which would be translated as 'nei' which is meaningless.
Since Nei is used for
nei jia quan internal school of fighting
nei li-internal power
nei dan shu- internal alchemy, internal skill of the 'dan.'

jdhowland
09-26-2010, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1039408]I have never heard the term "Sifu" used in Taiwan. QUOTE]

That's interesting. I have a friend from Taiwan who uses the term all the time in referring to his teachers and his students all call him Shifu.

I've brought this up before but one of my pet peeves is when an American insists that he be addressed as sifu. It is honorary and other people may address you as such but to demand it as a title is silliness.

I attended a week-long kung fu seminar a few years ago in which i was one of only two participants who were not already students of the teachers who gave the instruction (one teacher was from Hong Kong, the other a Hawaii-born Chinese American). The other newbie was a kajukenbo instructor who insisted on being addressed as "Sifu So-and-so." He seemed to be afraid that everyone would mistake him for a lowly kung fu student.

The teachers were very kind to me and we spent a lot of time before and after the classes socializing and trading anecdotes about people we knew in common and technical aspects of our arts. During the seminars "Sifu So-and-so" was included in the lines of students and spent many hours practicing hundreds of moves from praying mantis, hsing-i quan, taijiquan. The host instructor took me aside had me practice two postures and some conditioning exercises. That was it for the whole week. On the last day the guest instructor walked by me and commented, "That's an advanced posture." He later confided that he was offended by "Sifu" but neither of them ever let on. I guess we both got what we came for.

Young Mantis
10-05-2010, 11:23 AM
There are actually two ways to write the term SiFu:
師父: Teacher Father
師傅: Teacher Master
So far it seems like everyone has only been referring to the first one.

When a student refers to his own Sifu, he is using the "father" version.
When you refer to another person as a sifu, you are using the second.

Of course when speaking, it is impossible to determine which character you mean but it is implied. So when I see another CMA teacher, I address him as "Surname Sifu" i.e. Wong Sifu, Lee Sifu, etc. When I address my own Sifu, I don't use his surname and it is just Sifu.

It is that second Sifu term that is used when referring to non CMA teachers as Sifu. We refer to chefs, barbers, carpenters, just about any skilled person we want to show respect for their skills with the title sifu. Of course we are not calling them father.

As for the term laoshi, it simply means "old teacher". Growing up, the only context I knew for that term to be used was for my Chinese language school teachers. To my knowledge, Gung fu teachers were always called sifu in China so I am not sure when this term and Jiao Lian (coach) came to be used for gung fu teachers as well. This must be a recent development, maybe post Cultural Revolution?


As for the question of Master and Sifu (all of my romanization is for Cantonese) I find that the title of Master in a martial arts school is generally held to a different standard than when it is used in other Western fields. This seems especially true for people already involved in martial arts. While titles such as Master Plumber connote expertise in a field or titles such as High Master are honorific and denote a level of authority, there is no usage of the word as a title or adjective that means your expertise is complete. This understanding seems to be reserved for Martial Arts, and even then strictly amongst those already heavily involved.

I would agree with this post. I don't think the chefs that participate in the "Top Chef Masters" TV program believe they know everything there is to know about cooking and that they have mastered their trade. It is a honorific title to express a high level of respect for their skill.

David Jamieson
10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
sifu is what a student calls his kungfu teacher.

sensei is what a student calls his JMA teacher

Guru is what a student calls his FMA or Yoga teacher

Patje is what a student calls his kuntao or silat teacher


the whole cultural connection in regards to fillial lineage and everything has for the most part been lost in this time, especially in teh west where people refer to themselves as "sifu" to everyone and anyone because someone bestowed the title on them or they earned it in context to their martial art.

meanwhile, in China, it's not uncommon to call a busdriver sifu. lol

there is a huge disconnect in the martial arts these days regarding this term in many respects and yes it has everything to do with egotistical individuals who have not accomplished much in life and instead cling to what ever they have accomplished and proceed to puff it up a lot.

mind you, there are a lot of boneheads who call themselves all sorts of titles in an effort to project an identity for themselves.

not wanting to be too negative, but I don't go for the filial structure anymore because it simply does not fit in a cultural context to who I am, where I grew up, what my culture is and so on.

Sure i like chinese martial arts, but that doesn't mean I have to adopt the whole dang culture from the 1900's back just to learn a few forms and do some pugilism.

this would be mountains out of molehills in a big way and often is.

Your students call you sifu? cool! you are sifu!

you call yourself sifu to your cab driver? You are a nutbar. period. whether you know your art or not, you are extending the boundaries of the title to where it does not belong and is not relevant.

bawang
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
out of humbleness u call ur teacher shifu meaning father. out of humbleness ur teacher call u tudi. meaning BROTHER

hskwarrior
10-05-2010, 02:48 PM
Stfu bawang

bawang
10-05-2010, 02:56 PM
u have no honor

Dragonzbane76
10-05-2010, 03:13 PM
haha lol bawang ..............your my hero. :)

David Jamieson
10-05-2010, 05:34 PM
well, in fairness, cultural identity is important and it is constructs such as filial lineages that offer this identity and more within that if you choose to go in.

In Kung Fu teachings, it is part fo the character building exercises that are part of the overall training and indeed a huge part of it is a cultural aspect not dissimilar to an adopted family even if the experiences that created the construct are alien or foreign in your world view.

There is a simple lesson in such a structure: In order to lead, you must learn to follow.

Having done that, I no longer feel the need for such a construct so much as I feel a desire to continue with practice and study of what I have learned.

s' all good. :)

taai gihk yahn
10-05-2010, 05:56 PM
most of the time, I call my teacher by his first name (Sat), and he's fine with that; I also call him sifu when the mood strikes me to do so, and he's fine with that as well; in Chinatown, on the rare occasion he goes there (to visit his mother) people call him Hon Sifu, and he's fine with that; at times he is referred to as Master Hon, such as when in a formal situation (e.g. - being introduced as a Taoist teacher at the annual UN ecumenical ceremony), or when being spoken about in public by some of his students, and he's fine with that as well; in other words, he is not requiring anyone to cal him anything other than what they feel is necessary at that moment;

as far as "master" indicating that one has learned all that there to learn about something, I disagree - rather, to me, when one has mastery of one's art, one embodies the principles, the expression of one's art flows with a degree of ease, of effortlessness because one's practice has become interwoven with one's life; one "performs" one's art in a natural, fully integrated manner - in essence, one is living the art: this is mastery; but it does not mean one has stopped learning, it does not mean that one cannot or does not continually go deeper; so that is why, to me referring to my teacher as "master" is not a title that indicates subservience of me the slave, to him the master - he is not the master of me, he is the master of his own practice, of his own "way";

omarthefish
10-05-2010, 06:36 PM
What I find amusing is white people, in the west, straining to use Chinese terms and language!? No other activity does such silliness!


*cough* *cough* ballet *cough* classical music *cough**cough*

David Jamieson
10-05-2010, 06:54 PM
*cough* *cough* ballet *cough* classical music *cough**cough*

*further coughing* fine art *cough* cooking *cough* fencing *cough*


I think I could keep going and puke a lung here... but anyway, yes, yes it is... :p