Over Training, Injuries & The Point of Diminished Returns

[wenshu]

Thought I would invite some feedback on some issues & observations:

Over Training.
Since I am training for self cultivation rather than in a competitive sport capacity this is not really much of an issue outside of general health. However, it seems to me that I am in a perpetual state of overtraining/adaptation. This is with approximately 20 hours/week of training.

I do seem to encounter some symptoms from this; headaches, insomnia, occasional drops in performance capacity. Also I eat like a morbidly obese shut in(well, a vegetarian morbidly obese shut in). Thankfully I haven't had any major injuries. I feel that if I'm not walking around with sore muscles and throbbing connective tissue I'm not training hard enough. This is probably just indicative of some psycho-pathological exercise addiction.

In a combat/self defense scenario one obviously wants peak general physical preparedness and I am sacrificing this for long term developmental goals. Should I be worried about long term general health issues down the line? I really don't see how it can be that bad, and considering the training schedules of the pros in China; Gong Fu basically is over training.


Injuries:
I recently obtained a Xuan Feng Jiao landing on the kicking leg (modern:rolleyes:wushu, I know, but it's so much fun). I've since developed pain a little above the mid point on my right Fibula. The sensation is strikingly similar to medial Tibial Stress Syndrome (shin splints). However my experience with MTSS has always been bilateral. This is only on the right (kicking) leg.

I am hoping this is not indicative of a Fibular stress fracture(s). Could just be tendonitis. The pain is not debilitating, and I have left the XFJ alone for a little while to allow the (hopefully) inflamation to go down. Anyone have any experience with this? In any case I'll continue with the 药, ice and ibuprofen.

The Point of Diminished Returns;
When working on a particular skill or form, I find there is always a threshold where continuing to practice past a certain point (in a single session) is essentially useless and I just start developing bad habits.

This doesn't really apply to strength training because you just reach failure, and the majority of my strength training is sub maximal.

Most recently working on back handsprings I notice that after about 25 reps I start twisting and bending my arms, turning my hands, execution basically falls apart. It is very evident in that case.

Not so much when practicing a form, say Qi Xing Quan but still applicable, in this case maybe more insidious because it is not as self evident.

Of course as the body and nervous system adapts to the skill/form this threshold adapts. The impulse is to keep pushing it past this point with the thinking that it will still help me improve. I guess it would seem better to practice at a sub maximal level rather than risk developing bad habits, but I have yet to notice any glaring bad habits developed in this manner (outside of the fact that I suck at Gong Fu).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Professional athletes, the ELITE of the physical acheivement world, those who's JOBS are their bodies and the skills they have.
Typically, outside of training for high level competition, do NOT train 20 hours a week.
Enough said.
And when they do, it is typically divided in to 2 or 3 training sessions with rest (sleep) and massage in between them and they rarely maintain this past the 8 week mark.
And very rarely is more than ONE session done with high intensity.

[Frost]

overtraining and injuries go hand in hand, one pro i know was considering steriod injections a few years ago to help heal a shoulder injury that would not go away, shortly after he started working with an elite level pro trainer (a guy who trains the national rugby team) who cut his time spent training in half and introduced rest days and massage...low and behold no more injuries.

Pros will normally train more like 10 to 15 hours, and if they do 15 alot of that will be technical, hell the pro rugby teams cut training out at about 10 hours a week

where do you live that you need to be in peak condition and ready for combat all the time, not being funny but no one can achieve peak levels all year round (hence why fighters have camps and other pros off seasons)

[wenshu]

Maybe I could have been a little more precise.

A lot of it is technical. I'm not doing O-lifts, muscle ups and bag work/sparring for 4 hours 5 days a week. The high impact/intensity stuff maxes out at maybe 8-10 hours on a good week. Stretching to increase flexibility eats up a lot of time especially when you reach the over-splits progressions. Stance training. Gymnastic Fundamental Static Position work is a relatively technical set of skill progressions that also require a nice chunk of time every week if progress is to be made. http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/

The work/rest ratio of the modern professional combat athlete is not what I am concerned with. Even though I do admire the intricacies of the sweet science.

Training schedules in China are 6-8 hours a day 6 days a week. 不要懒！


where do you live that you need to be in peak condition and ready for combat all the time

I actually live in Downtown Los Angeles (Skid Row adjacent, as I like to call it), so maybe I should be more oriented towards self-defense.

It was just an aside that a purely self defense oriented training program would want to avoid over training and focus more on GPP. The peak modifier was misleading and imprecise.


one pro i know was considering steriod injections a few years ago to help heal a shoulder injury that would not go away, shortly after he started working with an elite level pro trainer (a guy who trains the national rugby team) who cut his time spent training in half and introduced rest days and massage...low and behold no more injuries.

I have been dealing with some chronic shoulder instability issues myself. Not fun at all, and takes forever to heal. Shoulder stabilization rehabilitation routines can be a taxing workout in and of themselves

[Frost]

Maybe I could have been a little more precise.

A lot of it is technical. I'm not doing O-lifts, muscle ups and bag work/sparring for 4 hours 5 days a week. The high impact/intensity stuff maxes out at maybe 8-10 hours on a good week. Stretching to increase flexibility eats up a lot of time especially when you reach the over-splits progressions. Stance training. Gymnastic Fundamental Static Position work is a relatively technical set of skill progressions that also require a nice chunk of time every week if progress is to be made. http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/

The work/rest ratio of the modern professional combat athlete is not what I am concerned with. Even though I do admire the intricacies of the sweet science.

Training schedules in China are 6-8 hours a day 6 days a week. 不要懒！



I actually live in Downtown Los Angeles (Skid Row adjacent, as I like to call it), so maybe I should be more oriented towards self-defense.

It was just an aside that a purely self defense oriented training program would want to avoid over training and focus more on GPP. The peak modifier was misleading and imprecise.



I have been dealing with some chronic shoulder instability issues myself. Not fun at all, and takes forever to heal. Shoulder stabilization rehabilitation routines can be a taxing workout in and of themselves

YOu may not be concerned with it but if even pro athletes cant follow the sort of training regime you are talking about it should give you pause for thought maybe?

8-10 hours a week is probably still alot more high intense work than any pro will do except 8 weeks out or so from a comp, if you are doing this year round then good luck :)

the chinese follow the russian mentality of survival of the fittest, they have so many people to play with that they can afford to train them 8 hours a day burn out 99% of them and then let the 1% left go off and amaze the world, if you want to follow that programme thats fine but expect to belong to the 99% not being an as$ its just playing the percentage game really

[sanjuro_ronin]

the chinese follow the russian mentality of survival of the fittest, they have so many people to play with that they can afford to train them 8 hours a day burn out 99% of them and then let the 1% left go off and amaze the world, if you want to follow that programme thats fine but expect to belong to the 99% not being an as$ its just playing the percentage game really

To expand on that, they follow the view of "get the most, as fast as you can and screw the rest" ie: screw the health of the athlete.
You don't see many Eastern block or chinese high level athletes in their sports with longevity.
Unless they turn pro and all of a sudden the training chnages because it becomes about lasting as long as you can ( getting the most $$$ that you can out of your career) and not about "sooner rather than later".

[wenshu]

Should point out a terse fact. Pro's spend time, you know, actually competing. I'm not.

For a combat athlete that may only be thirty seconds win or lose, or it could be almost 45 minutes. The science of it, as I'm sure you know, is in structuring a training program that will have the fighters hands up in the last round. The rugby athletes actual games are fairly time intensive I would imagine.

I'm not competing in anything. I can afford to be sore, nursing minor injuries etc. They can't. In any case there is really no comparison between the expenditures of a pro athletes training regime and mine. They assuredly work harder in less time every week than I do.

Elite level Gymnasts train at least 6-7 hours a day 6 days a week, and i believe as comps approach they work even more.

Gong Fu training existed long before the Soviet Union or the modern Olympic Games and was far beyond 20 hours a week.

I have low volume weeks where I take a couple of extra days off to allow for more recovery. And I did not just all of the sudden start training this amount of time out of the blue. I've spent nearly three years building up to this. Its not some goal of time that i have for each week, it is merely the amount of time I find necessary to be able to progress in the disciplines I cultivate.

I don't think the Chinese follow the Russian mentality, the Chinese follow the Chinese mentality. I don't know anything about their Olympic athletes, but for Wushu/Gong Fu, they train 6-8 hours a day, through injuries, because that is what is required to get good, to be able to stand out in a school of ten thousand.

They train this way ten years or more, hit their peak in their late teens early twenties, and then a lot of them go on to other things. Sometimes even more Gong Fu/Wushu. The ones I know, have no health problems.

[Frost]

you wanted feedback and got it, sorry its not what you wanted to hear good luck with your training:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gong Fu training existed long before the Soviet Union or the modern Olympic Games and was far beyond 20 hours a week.

Where is your source on this? because all the studies I have read have never said that.
See: Brian kennedy's work and Meir Shahar.

[Frost]

Where is your source on this? because all the studies I have read have never said that.
See: Brian kennedy's work and Meir Shahar.

i wouldnt bother SJ it seems he has it all figured ut and when he said he wanted feedback i think he really meant come tell me now awsome i am

[sanjuro_ronin]

i wouldnt bother SJ it seems he has it all figured ut and when he said he wanted feedback i think he really meant come tell me now awsome i am

Well...perhaps.
I know that when I was competing I was putting in quiet the time, typically 3 hours per day, 6 days a week and when I was young and single it was still a good 1.5 to 2 every day, 5 days a week.
But with all honesty, those were not straight workouts, they included class time and teaching time too ( except when training for competition).
Studies have shown over and over that you can go hard and short or easy and long, but you can go hard and long, something always gives.
I think people get really hung up on numbers:
Number of forms, number of techniques, number of hours, number of years, know what I mean?
Fact is, there is quality and quantity, which one do you want to have?

[Frost]

Well...perhaps.
I know that when I was competing I was putting in quiet the time, typically 3 hours per day, 6 days a week and when I was young and single it was still a good 1.5 to 2 every day, 5 days a week.
But with all honesty, those were not straight workouts, they included class time and teaching time too ( except when training for competition).
Studies have shown over and over that you can go hard and short or easy and long, but you can go hard and long, something always gives.
I think people get really hung up on numbers:
Number of forms, number of techniques, number of hours, number of years, know what I mean?
Fact is, there is quality and quantity, which one do you want to have?

we have all trained like that when we were younger, question is did it actually help us, i wish i knew then what i know now about training, recovery and injury prevention still it was fun :D

Nice question i remember when my old grappling gym was cleaning up against gyms that taught 7 days a week and my coach only taught 3 nights a week and he also managed to put out fighters in the UFC, the answer was easy quality every time :)

[wenshu]

Sanjuro; I'm not familiar with Kennedy's work, I've read Shahar's Shaolin Monastery several times.

I could be wrong but I don't recall anything about actual training schedules.

Although extant documentation regarding ancient training schedules would be fascinating.

Admittedly a rather weak assumption on my part.

Ultimately my source is my Shifu, while we've never dealt with this subject directly, from what I've learned from him about traditional Gong Fu training practices, professional means pretty much all day almost every day. Often training one movement. 2 years just for 上步推掌。He was miserable for those two years. He says he spent nearly 3 months just practicing the opening movement for Da Tong Bei: 金沙飞掌 jīnshā fēizhǎng. If you are familiar with this movement you can understand how tedious it must have been.


Frost; not necessarily something i didn't want to hear, I just disagree. I appreciate the debate. Try and remember that not everyone has the hard on for UFC that you do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ultimately my source is my Shifu, while we've never dealt with this subject directly, from what I've learned from him about traditional Gong Fu training practices, professional means pretty much all day almost every day. Often training one movement. 2 years just for 上步推掌。He was miserable for those two years. He says he spent nearly 3 months just practicing the opening movement for Da Tong Bei: 金沙飞掌 jīnshā fēizhǎng. If you are familiar with this movement you can understand how tedious it must have been.

There is really no evidence for those anecdotes.
So we really have to use common sense to evalute what we do, how we do it and for how long.
Professional athletes are the pinacle of human physical development, they are faster, stronger, etc, than the lay man and at this point in time, in verifiable history, are the best humans have been.
Take the 100 meter record of 9.58 ( or whatever it is).

So we take what they do, we see it and analyse it and say:
If the best in the world do this, what should I do?

Of course, the best in the world have also the b est HELP, pharamcetical and other, so we must add THAT to the equation also, ex:

If a pro boxer trains 3 hours per day, 5 days a week and has massage therapy, correct diet, excellent supplementation and pharmacetical help to be able to do that. what does that mean for us?

[wenshu]

There is really no evidence for those anecdotes.


Actually. . .

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TJJo_84rLQI/AAAAAAAAAA4/6k_oJreVCa8/s400/IMG_0893.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TJJr0cCO-tI/AAAAAAAAABM/2A21OMnG-fI/s400/IMG_0898.JPG


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TJJo_xFYbBI/AAAAAAAAABA/KekykGoj_kQ/s400/IMG_0915.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TJJr0V54ZkI/AAAAAAAAABQ/HUnxK2nYJ0Y/s400/IMG_0800.JPG


Thats pretty much their day right there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude...I thought we were having a serious discussion here.

[wenshu]

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. . .

I guess you're trying to express incredulity or disgust of some sort.

Where's the evidence for your anecdotes?

pro boxers train 3 hours/day 5/week?

Pacquiao does 4 hour sustained workouts however many days a week, not including roadwork leading into a fight.

Your referencing methodologies from highly specialized competitive athletes without any regard for the context.

Do you have evidence that Olympic Sprinters don't train more than 20 hours a week?

Honestly; you guys are the ones who got all hung up on the numbers. I had other specific concerns, the training schedule is incidental.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. . .

I guess you're trying to express incredulity or disgust of some sort.

Where's the evidence for your anecdotes?

pro boxers train 3 hours/day 5/week?

Pacquiao does 4 hour sustained workouts however many days a week, not including roadwork leading into a fight.

Your referencing methodologies from highly specialized competitive athletes without any regard for the context.

Do you have evidence that Olympic Sprinters don't train more than 20 hours a week?

Ok, we are talking about things that are easily searched on the net, you don't need me to do that for you.
As for Manny:

Manny’s workout at the gym can only be described as awesome. In more than 40 years as a boxing promoter, working with Hall of Fame fighters like Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and Roberto Duran, I’ve never anything like it. His training sessions go on for about four hours without a break. After the usual warming-up exercises, Manny boxes most days with two or more sparring partners, then hits the mitts with Freddie for at least 10 more rounds.

This display of energy and stamina exhausts anyone watching, Manny doesn’t stop. He skips rope and works the heavy and light bags continuously for more than an hour. Only then does Manny finally stand still, which allows his Filipino trainer Buboy Fernandez to pound his midsection with a bamboo pole for about twenty more minutes. The brutal workout finally concludes more than four hours after it starts.

That was taken from http://www.mannypacquiaofights.com/7255/watching-manny-pacquiao-train-in-the-philippines.html

and notice what he says:
Manny’s workout at the gym can only be described as awesome. In more than 40 years as a boxing promoter, working with Hall of Fame fighters like Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and Roberto Duran, I’ve never anything like it.

Manny is a freak, that is NOT the example you wanna follow, just my advice.

As for the sprinter thing, FYI, I trained at the same gym Ben Johnson used to train at York university, I SAW and helped video his and others training sessions so, yes, I do have first hand knowledge of that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You seem to be under the impression that more is better that, if training 2 hours a day is good, that 4 hours is better.
Even though you seem to see the first hand effects that this is NOT the case.

Its your health and your body, in the end, it's up to you.

[bawang]

2 years just for 上步推掌。

congralulations he spent 2 years just to learn step forward and punch . lolololollollo
maybe in 10 more years he learn blocking and dodging. LOLOLOLOLOLOLO

[wenshu]

Being witness to Ben Johnson training is still just an anecdote. Not important I'm just saying, its not evidence.

Plus. Steroids? I mean its pretty much common knowledge that all the sprinters juice, he just got caught. But still, he probably didn't need to push himself very hard. In any event from where I'm standing it's just hearsay.

You're misunderstanding. I'm not arguing that simply more is better. My arguments have been a little more nuanced than that. I'm just saying that outside of high level competitive athletes over training is not as onerous as people make it out to be. The body does adapt.

What i call over training probably isn't even close to what a professional athelete is capable of doing to their body.

Yes Manny is a freak of nature, and I'm not modeling anything on him. I said early on that my workouts are definitely not sustained balls to the wall marathons of physical activity.

Bawang;
17 years later he's pretty good. Glad I'm could give you a chuckle mang.

[Jimbo]

There are points of diminishing returns when it comes to training. It's great to train hard, and to try to extend the boundaries of your abilities, but over the years I've come to realize that quality does trump quantity.

I remember overtraining in my younger years, becoming obsessive about aerobic and overall conditioning, to the point of still doing a grueling run the morning of a competition or a big test. Even against the advice of my teacher(s). Of course, it didn't help. While my opponents were rested and recovered, I would sometimes enter an event feeling somewhat flat. I also caught colds fairly easily during that time. Eventually I got smart and realized, "What the hell am I doing?"

Once I began the routine of preparing for an event about 6 weeks beforehand, increasing the intensity, then lightening up the last week (stopping the hard sparring) and taking about the last 2 or 3 days off before the big day (except for some light exercises and stretching), my mind and body were rested and ready, and my performance results went way up. After the event, I would also rest a couple days, then slowly begin training up to normal intensity again.

There's also been times I've taken days off from training, even a week off from any MA. Invariably, I would feel much better when I came back. Once I took a whole year away from MA, except for some self-training, due to mental burnout. During normal training, IMO there is no need to be in top condition, and it's impossible to maintain peak conditioning for any extended period. Your resistance can go down, you become vulnerable to injury, your practice feels stale, and you develop bad habits. As you get older, injuries heal much more slowly, too.

Clearly, what I did does not compare to a pro athlete. But in the context of what I was doing, I learned a lot about variable intensity, rest, etc. But I could have been a bit more disciplined about my diet back then.

[Frost]

Ok you seem to be under a misapprehension about what I 9and probably Ronin) are saying and you are right not everyone has the heart or ability to be a UFC champ, but if those athletes who are out of most people’s leagues when it comes to abilities limit their trainng time doesn’t that make you think?

If the best in the world, with all the help they can get only manage to train between 10 to 15 hours a week what makes you think that an amateur without the aids they have can get by on MORE training

You brought up May, not only as Ronin pointed out is he considered a freak, but you yourself said it was leading UP to a fight....every athlete pro or AM peaks their training they do NOT train at that intensity all year round they can't.

Now as for how the Chinese train whether they train the way you say or not is largely immaterial (Ronin seems to be talking about old school training where as you sem to be usingmodern wushu schools as your example), for the simple reason those school that may train that way can afford to, people look at that training and imagine they will be the one coming out of the class and going on to be a pro fighter or playing a shaolin monk for the tourists, but more likely they will be with the hundreds sent home through injuries and exhaustion, and yes the Chinese do follow the soviet system of training and it spreads throughout their whole athletic training regime (they implore former east German and east European coaches)

The basic fact is if pro athletes (and amateurs) recognise that over training is a real issue and leads to less than perfect performance and injuries does that not make you wonder about the volume of training you are using?

[wenshu]

I just simply disagree with your numbers in the first place.

Second. By your rationale; an amateur should only train 10-15 hours per week because supposedly pros only train that many hours a week. You simply cannot even compare the work output of a professional in 10-15 hours to an amateur's 10-15 hours. There's no way an amateur is going to match that, therefore over training is not as much of a risk. So long as one is getting enough rest and proper nutrition, 20 hours of work by an amateur probably wouldn't even be equal to 10 of a professional. Mild over training is an easily remedied situation anyways. Rest.

I only bring up Manny to dispute these magic numbers you guys keep throwing out with out referencing any evidence. Ronin is right, Manny's a freak.
Yes, there are myriad examples of fighter's "leaving it in the gym", (The somewhat recent Ward v. Greene fight comes to mind), for boxers, over training is a real danger so they must limit their volume scientifically. In reference to my point above, no one here could manage what Pacman does in 10 hours a week in 20. Maybe more.

I was talking about old school training, like I said, I don't know anything about their Olympic programs and whether or not they employ coaches from Europe and Russia. Traditional does still exist in China, and not all Shaolin Monks are just wushu performers.

Ultimately the risk of over training for an amateur is far less than for a professional. And actual cases of over trained athlete syndrome even among professionals is not exactly common. In fact I think it is basically an excuse people use to justify laziness. Outside of severe cases of exercise addiction, an amateur is not going to reach that level.

[wenshu]

Jimbo;

There are points of diminishing returns when it comes to training. It's great to train hard, and to try to extend the boundaries of your abilities, but over the years I've come to realize that quality does trump quantity.

I was actually talking about diminished returns in regards to the practice of a single technique within a single session or day. At a certain point practice is not really improving anything.

But you bring up a good point by applying it to one's overall training program. Within the particular boundaries of a training program there is a point where continuing to practice becomes detrimental. Obviously to be avoided in a competitive capacity.


I remember overtraining in my younger years, becoming obsessive about aerobic and overall conditioning, to the point of still doing a grueling run the morning of a competition or a big test. Even against the advice of my teacher(s). Of course, it didn't help. While my opponents were rested and recovered, I would sometimes enter an event feeling somewhat flat. I also caught colds fairly easily during that time. Eventually I got smart and realized, "What the hell am I doing?"



Training for competitive athletic performance is difficult precisely because you have to find that exact point where you train just enough to be at your absolute peak, but not one iota past that point otherwise risking a decline in performance ability.



There's also been times I've taken days off from training, even a week off from any MA. Invariably, I would feel much better when I came back. Once I took a whole year away from MA, except for some self-training, due to mental burnout. During normal training, IMO there is no need to be in top condition, and it's impossible to maintain peak conditioning for any extended period. Your resistance can go down, you become vulnerable to injury, your practice feels stale, and you develop bad habits. As you get older, injuries heal much more slowly, too.

Clearly, what I did does not compare to a pro athlete. But in the context of what I was doing, I learned a lot about variable intensity, rest, etc. But I could have been a bit more disciplined about my diet back then.

I also love the feeling of returning to a training program after a low volume week, gives a much better perspective of the progress made thus far.

You are absolutely right that you cannot maintain peak conditioning for extended period of time. However, you can work to raise where that peak is.

[David Jamieson]

Professional athletes, the ELITE of the physical acheivement world, those who's JOBS are their bodies and the skills they have.
Typically, outside of training for high level competition, do NOT train 20 hours a week.
Enough said.
And when they do, it is typically divided in to 2 or 3 training sessions with rest (sleep) and massage in between them and they rarely maintain this past the 8 week mark.
And very rarely is more than ONE session done with high intensity.

Interestingly enough, it has been noted that world class athletes are simply not healthy people.

They actually train to the detriment of their health in many cases.

Mind you, once they stop competing, I would imagine that they would become healthy quite quickly because of the end of ridiculous training regimens and a diet that isn't suitable for day to day, not to mention the injuries and the damage caused by playing through them all the time.

This is also no excuse to sit on one's ass eating cheeseburgers and thinking that life is grand because athletes in general are not the picture of health.

we are all responsible for our own mistakes. :)

[wenshu]

Interestingly enough, it has been noted that world class athletes are simply not healthy people.

They actually train to the detriment of their health in many cases.

Mind you, once they stop competing, I would imagine that they would become healthy quite quickly because of the end of ridiculous training regimens and a diet that isn't suitable for day to day, not to mention the injuries and the damage caused by playing through them all the time.

Especially concerning diet. Gymnasts are notorious for poor diets. I've seen competitive prospects (nothing world class mind you, more like local/state prospect) finish off one of their daily 4 hour workouts with a bag of Doritos and a Coke. Nothing like some corn meal fried in partially hydrogenated corn oil polished off with some high fructose corn syrup (Corn SugarTM, sorry) to fuel a demanding physical regime. In the short term not that detrimental, and with that level of work no real risk of obesity, but still, not exactly healthy, and if this is continued post career, then obesity is only the beginning. I was reading the meal plan of a world class gymnasts during training for competition and it was predominately pasta, eggs and meat. Obviously heavy doses of proteins and carbs are need to maintain that level of activity but when you are getting almost all of your vitamins through supplementation something is not right.

Phelp's supposed 12,000 calorie/day diet has been debunked volume wise, but it included a heavy dose of white bread and mayonnaise. Considering his penchant for herbal remedies that is not entirely surprising.