Eight Chopping Knives, dead or alive?

[LoneTiger108]

On reflection and in response to questions asked by Sifu Robert Chu about my kung fu Uncles (Austin Goh) knife clip on Youtube, I thought that I would respond within my own thread as I think the discussion is worth having openly.

Personally, I'm more interested in how to train well in all areas of the art, and that involes taking the knowledge and images we have kept within the forms to another level completely. After meeting and presenting seminars with my Uncle recently I thought it was quite strange to be questioned so openly about something so personal to me.

Here goes :)


Spencer,

All claims of using two foils to defeat an Olympic Fencer with one aside, is this the BJD form it as you know it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Looks like Yip Chun's form to me. Is it the same as yours? If so, why the descrepancy?

He even wrote a book on it published by Paladin Press where he credits Yip Chun for the set.

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/books/a-c/austin-goh-butterfly-swords-2.jpg

As far as I know, which isn't far at all really, how my Uncle learnt his knife form is his business :cool: What I will ask you is who you think taught Ip Chun the knife form? And why my Uncle would choose to learn from Ip Chun? Performance quality aside, and I do understand the criticisms, that's still my Uncles business ;) He is also still healthy and teaching in the UK and Europe.

As for what I know about the eight chopping knife, my Uncle didn't teach me the form as I had the fortune to learn from another elder student of Lee Shing. And no, my knives do not look like my Uncles. Similar postures, different mechanics to move within them. That knowledge is in fact Jun Mo, not Ching Mo.

I will leave you to come to your own conclusions, but...


An FYI to some of you, shock knives hurt and they give you real feedback, grante dit is not getting 6" of steel in your gut, but the feed back is there.
Dull aluminum knives really freaking hurt !

... I have felt this pain, luckily not on many occassions :D And for the record, we all trained together. A group of 5 with many more students too. Jun Mo is known for it's weaponry interactions and I'm honoured to say that I was a part of the schools history at that specific time. Stick to stick, stick to knife, ring to stick and all that jazz ;)

How many others are still doing this? Daily :eek:

What have you practised with a knife in your hand?

[bawang]

wot u gonna chop with that tiny ass knife? baby carrots?

[chusauli]

Thank you Spencer! That was heartfelt honesty. I also pay very much attention to what you did not say outright.

[k gledhill]

Very much alive, you just need to understand how they work to make them a part of the system and not some 'carrot' you get at the end ;)

We show the knife and pole in the first lesson to begining fighters, so they get the idea of tactics and ballistic force displacement early on. This way we can refer to the ideas straight away without picking them up 6months later, 2 years later 5 , 10....


When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?

[shawchemical]

Very much alive, you just need to understand how they work to make them a part of the system and not some 'carrot' you get at the end ;)

We show the knife and pole in the first lesson to begining fighters, so they get the idea of tactics and ballistic force displacement early on. This way we can refer to the ideas straight away without picking them up 6months later, 2 years later 5 , 10....


When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?

They are never a carrot, however if they are incorporated too early they destroy the ability to learn the empty hands properly.

[k gledhill]

BS right there...I'm talking about HOW to use knives to fight, strategy employed by both knife and bare hand, to a complete beginner. Its pointless giving them the knives to early, not for the 'hands' but the footwork is so different....confusing.
The basic cuts and stabbing with high low turning are shown to student as early on as they can handle it, without confusing them. That's an 'individual' learning curve decision, not a fixed time-line set by anyone but a coach and his /her student.
It helps to develop basic actions and motor coordination, they 'already have' the strategy and know the fighting ideas of a face-off with an equally armed, or barehanded opponent for several years in their minds and using to spar barehanded....crazy idea:rolleyes: to tell a student on the first day the fighting strategy from the knives also applies to our sparring with fists.

[LoneTiger108]

Thank you Spencer! That was heartfelt honesty. I also pay very much attention to what you did not say outright.

If you have paid attention, and appreciate honesty, can you at least answer my questions? Call me curious George, but I'm also intrigued to know what you think I didn't say outright?


When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?

Pretty early on from what I can remember, but I don't think it was 'tactical' so much. The way you seem to separate the movement with the knife footwork as being totally alien to a beginner really doesn't make sense to me either. I've found that quite common in WSL family, as there is a structured approach to learning the forms: BJD being the ultimate and final form. I didn't learn Wing Chun in that way as my mobility work was learnt from day one and the forms just acted as a reminder of what I already knew. So much easier to learn that way from my experience.

I think you've also said before that you like to train with the strategy of the knife in the empty hand, which is fine as long as you understand the restrictions and distancing differences. Trying to slice the inside tendons of elbows with your finger nails isn't really a good idea imho, but a good solid chop works wonders either way ;)

And just to pull something from another thread:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Dale, what is your opinion on these guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oam4l...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spG1ENQHwzk


They are on the right track, although they need to incorporate ground fighting because that's often where it will end up.

With the approach they are using, in about 6 months time they will all be 10x better than someone who sits around practicing butterfly knife sets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Just to be clear, stabbing knives (normally double edged) have nothing whatsoever to do with what we practice in Wing Chun. It isn't a great idea to even compare the training as the clips you share Dale were also described as developing very 'bad habits' which I agree with.

In the UK we have a growing Doce Pares community who compete like this with double stick too and they're superb in their field, against eachother, but I just don't think it can compare with the BJD. I would prefer to get stabbed once knowing that you will lose your head or at least a limb in the process! :D

Joking aside, why do people feel that clips put up on Youtube reflect the skill level of a practitioner?? And why all the Austin Goh bashing?? :mad: He has constantly promoted Wing Chun for over forty years and was doing stuff in the eighties that is being promoted today as more mainland or dare I say 'authentic' WCK! Ask yourself what have YOU done for Wing Chun?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you carry your BJD's around with you ??

[LoneTiger108]

Do you carry your BJD's around with you ??

Yeah right!! In London?? :eek:

They are only carried in my minds eye these days, but I do remember training a lot with them tucked into my sash :D;) But I was also a flag waving, uniformed lunatic in my day :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah right!! In London?? :eek:

They are only carried in my minds eye these days, but I do remember training a lot with them tucked into my sash :D;) But I was also a flag waving, uniformed lunatic in my day :eek:

What do you carry with you? what type of knife?

[LoneTiger108]

What do you carry with you? what type of knife?

Are you serious dude?? This is LONDON, ENGLAND :rolleyes:

I have never really felt the need to carry anything like that unless I was on the way to training. Have you not heard of our knife ban in the UK??? :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a few guys that carry them in the UK, that's why I asked.
So, you don't carry knives, but you train with them and not with practical everyday knives that you would use, but with the BFD's?

Is this correct?

I assume just for tradtion, yes?

[LoneTiger108]

I assume just for tradtion, yes?

Not entirely correct no.

I'm definitely holding onto something that could be considered a tradition, which is why I wouldn't openly 'teach' the knife I know to anyone. Even starting this thread puts me into difficulty with my teacher and seniors to be honest.

I would never think that just training how I have is enough to understand a shorter stabbing/slashing blade and how it can be used. But I do understand common sense and how to transfer knowledge into various scenarios.

I'm just not into 'testing' things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits. But that's only an opinion, not something to get too defensive about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm just not into 'testing' things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits. But that's only an opinion, not something to get too defensive about.

Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?

[LoneTiger108]

Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?

No dude. Again, read what I write :rolleyes:

I'm just not into 'testing' things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits.

I highlight the word definitely as I do feel I have enough experience to see quite easily if an interactive drill, whether in a sparring or more set controlled environment, will create bad habits. And GOOD ones.

I'm afraid the clips I watched would not help the knife man increase his/her skill with the BJD, and that may work the same vice versa too. Point is, weaponry is very specialized and each has their strengths and weaknesses. ;) Even within Wing Chun there are differences to size, shape and ultimately purpose.

Give us an example of how YOU train with the Wing Chun knives...

[Frost]

I know a few guys that carry them in the UK, that's why I asked.
So, you don't carry knives, but you train with them and not with practical everyday knives that you would use, but with the BFD's?

Is this correct?

I assume just for tradtion, yes?

over here carrying can get you jailed sucks but what can you do :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?

lol this answer should be interesting :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

No dude. Again, read what I write :rolleyes:

I'm just not into 'testing' things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits.

I highlight the word definitely as I do feel I have enough experience to see quite easily if an interactive drill, whether in a sparring or more set controlled environment, will create bad habits. And GOOD ones.

I'm afraid the clips I watched would not help the knife man increase his/her skill with the BJD, and that may work the same vice versa too. Point is, weaponry is very specialized and each has their strengths and weaknesses. ;) Even within Wing Chun there are differences to size, shape and ultimately purpose.

Give us an example of how YOU train with the Wing Chun knives...
I was introduced to the double knives when doing moy yat WC under sunny tang.
I prefer the knife training I picked up in the FMA, the drills were more practical and so was the training.

I don't recall any bad habits I have picked up or seen anyone pick up from live drills and sparring with "knives".
Sticks sometimes, but not knives.

[chusauli]

If you have paid attention, and appreciate honesty, can you at least answer my questions? Call me curious George, but I'm also intrigued to know what you think I didn't say outright?



Basically, what you are not saying outright is (and of course, there is speculation into what is not being said):

1) Your BJD set and Austin Goh's are different
2) Lee Shing did not teach Austin Goh the BJD, and he learned it from Yip Chun
3) You don't know why Lee Shing did not teach the knives to Austin Goh..nor is it your business
4) You are also implying that some other source than Yip Man taught Yip Chun the knives (perhaps alluding to Lee Shing)
5) As, let's say, "dramatic", as Austin Goh's performances are, they are not indicative of the entire Lee Shing branch, and that we cannot judge you simply by Austin Goh's performances.
6) And we have not seen the Jun Mo or Yum Yeung WCK (hence, enough of Lee Shing branch) to make a fair assessment...

How's that, for what you did not say outright?

[chusauli]

I would also say here that many people throughout WCK may not use stabbing as much - he preference for a particular type of shape of the knives will indicate who's a slasher, vs. who is a stabber.

Stabbing often produces immediate death, more so than slashing.

[LoneTiger108]

I was introduced to the double knives when doing moy yat WC under sunny tang.
I prefer the knife training I picked up in the FMA, the drills were more practical and so was the training.

I don't recall any bad habits I have picked up or seen anyone pick up from live drills and sparring with "knives".
Sticks sometimes, but not knives.

Why were your drills in FMA more practical? What drills did you do with Sunny Tang? This interests me as I have much respect for the late Moy Yat and his work promoting WCK.



Basically, what you are not saying outright is (and of course, there is speculation into what is not being said):

1) Your BJD set and Austin Goh's are different
2) Lee Shing did not teach Austin Goh the BJD, and he learned it from Yip Chun
3) You don't know why Lee Shing did not teach the knives to Austin Goh..nor is it your business
4) You are also implying that some other source than Yip Man taught Yip Chun the knives (perhaps alluding to Lee Shing)
5) As, let's say, "dramatic", as Austin Goh's performances are, they are not indicative of the entire Lee Shing branch, and that we cannot judge you simply by Austin Goh's performances.
6) And we have not seen the Jun Mo or Yum Yeung WCK (hence, enough of Lee Shing branch) to make a fair assessment...

How's that, for what you did not say outright?

Interesting perception Robert :rolleyes: Here's my view:

1) Not really. No. Similar postures. Different learning. Everyones an individual.
2) As I said. That's his own business. I presume if he printed it in a book it must be true.
3) If it is true, you are correct.
4) Ip Chuns SLT was learnt/refined by the Lee Shing Family, so yes, I believe his weaponry may also be influenced by us. He was very very close to lee Shing.
5) Correct. Just as you shouldn't judge anyones WCK without seeing/feeling it for yourself.
6) I would have to agree with that. ;)

FWIW I spent an evening with some family last night (students of Austin Goh and Joe Lee) and this weaponry question came up. Basically the effectiveness of the knife against the pole was discussed as Lee Shing was known for his quality pole training. He was undefeated with his stick plays, so how could the knives beat the pole?

It was quite obvious that they had not seen the knives move like I demonstrated, and I'm quite out of practise. These guys are family, so if they have yet to see what I was doing then I can only presume that anyone outside the family may never get the chance to see it at all. :(

Seriously, I think you need to be looking at Uncles site as he has placed the entire list of Lee Shings students online recently. Although he himself has had much to do with the external promotions of LSWC there are many more who just aren't as public. He is aware of this too, and quite humble these days as he sees the whole family join together again. Have a look and you will see what I mean. Lee Shing taught everyone individually so they all hold/held something unique.

You should remember that when you're trying to 'label' a practitioner in the future to fit in with what you think we 'should' be or look like! Just a bit of advice. :cool:

http://www.austingoh.com/leeshing/

Would have made a better contribution to your book I think! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why were your drills in FMA more practical? What drills did you do with Sunny Tang? This interests me as I have much respect for the late Moy Yat and his work promoting WCK.


The FMA actually involved fighting.
Most of the drills in WC were WC with knives, almost the very same drills.
Plus the knives use din FMA are more practical too, of course.
But it was far more than that.
Actually hitting things with knives and trying to cut through things to get the feel of how making an impact with something changes the flow of a combination.

[LoneTiger108]

The FMA actually involved fighting.
Most of the drills in WC were WC with knives, almost the very same drills.
Plus the knives use din FMA are more practical too, of course.
But it was far more than that.
Actually hitting things with knives and trying to cut through things to get the feel of how making an impact with something changes the flow of a combination.

Its interesting that you seem to imply that we (or you) didn't 'hit' anything with the BJD, or didn't spar/interact with other weaponry students? This experience in FMA has led you away from us! :eek:

I can see the point of the type of knife used in FMA compared to the traditional looking BJD being or feeling more practical but personally I don't feel that a smaller double edged knife would stop a pole crushing through you. A BJD will :D

But I guess, being practical, nobody will swing a pole at you in the street right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its interesting that you seem to imply that we (or you) didn't 'hit' anything with the BJD, or didn't spar/interact with other weaponry students? This experience in FMA has led you away from us! :eek:

I can see the point of the type of knife used in FMA compared to the traditional looking BJD being or feeling more practical but personally I don't feel that a smaller double edged knife would stop a pole crushing through you. A BJD will :D

But I guess, being practical, nobody will swing a pole at you in the street right?

I didn't imply ANYTHING, I stated my experience with BOTH systems, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, don't get me wrong, there are some FMA out there that are in a nice fantasy land about their knife work and stick work, thinking that a shot along the head with a stick will stop a person in their tracks or that they can sut and NOT get cut.
But if I was to compare, directly, the average FMA with the average WC practioner, in regards to edge and impact weapons, I would typiclaly, give it to the FMA guy.
Form what I have seen.

[LoneTiger108]

But if I was to compare, directly, the average FMA with the average WC practioner, in regards to edge and impact weapons, I would typiclaly, give it to the FMA guy.
Form what I have seen.

If I was to be honest and go by what I have seen (publically) I would probably agree with you.

But what I have actually seen in front of me? There would be a nice exchange :D

[LSWCTN1]

Why were your drills in FMA more practical? What drills did you do with Sunny Tang? This interests me as I have much respect for the late Moy Yat and his work promoting WCK.




Interesting perception Robert :rolleyes: Here's my view:

1) Not really. No. Similar postures. Different learning. Everyones an individual.
2) As I said. That's his own business. I presume if he printed it in a book it must be true.
3) If it is true, you are correct.
4) Ip Chuns SLT was learnt/refined by the Lee Shing Family, so yes, I believe his weaponry may also be influenced by us. He was very very close to lee Shing.
5) Correct. Just as you shouldn't judge anyones WCK without seeing/feeling it for yourself.
6) I would have to agree with that. ;)

FWIW I spent an evening with some family last night (students of Austin Goh and Joe Lee) and this weaponry question came up. Basically the effectiveness of the knife against the pole was discussed as Lee Shing was known for his quality pole training. He was undefeated with his stick plays, so how could the knives beat the pole?

It was quite obvious that they had not seen the knives move like I demonstrated, and I'm quite out of practise. These guys are family, so if they have yet to see what I was doing then I can only presume that anyone outside the family may never get the chance to see it at all. :(

Seriously, I think you need to be looking at Uncles site as he has placed the entire list of Lee Shings students online recently. Although he himself has had much to do with the external promotions of LSWC there are many more who just aren't as public. He is aware of this too, and quite humble these days as he sees the whole family join together again. Have a look and you will see what I mean. Lee Shing taught everyone individually so they all hold/held something unique.

You should remember that when you're trying to 'label' a practitioner in the future to fit in with what you think we 'should' be or look like! Just a bit of advice. :cool:

http://www.austingoh.com/leeshing/

Would have made a better contribution to your book I think! :D

no Joseph Man (or is that Man Nak Chow?)
No Eddie Yeoh?
No Nigel Fan?
No Joseph Cheng? (or is that Cheng Chun?)

man, sometimes...

[LoneTiger108]

no Joseph Man (or is that Man Nak Chow?)
No Eddie Yeoh?
No Nigel Fan?
No Joseph Cheng? (or is that Cheng Chun?)

man, sometimes...

Ah! AND you should know why this is... ;) Only direct students and family of Lee Shing are named and Nigel and Eddie were Joseph Chengs students. (Cheng Chun)

Unfortunately, if you don't know their cantonese names you would draw the same conclusions but I guarantee you they're all there, even if the pinyin spelling is slightly off. :rolleyes:

Joseph Man = Man Sik Jow (Man Sak Chow)

And for the researchers out there, this is (as far as I know) in Sihing to Sidai order reading from left to right. That's why my Sifu is only number 7 and he too has elders. Just a basic guideline to 'who started first' and may not reflect the skill level acheived by individuals (and some are also repeats I think)

Only Joseph Man, Joe Lee and Austin Goh are teaching publically at the moment and they all teach differently.

[Frost]

If I was to be honest and go by what I have seen (publically) I would probably agree with you.

But what I have actually seen in front of me? There would be a nice exchange :D

It amazes me that on virtually every board on this forum people seem to acknowledge teaching by and far sucks in TCMA but somehow they have managed to find the real deal...but of course there are no videos to show it in action as its all private and behing closed doors

[LoneTiger108]

It amazes me that on virtually every board on this forum people seem to acknowledge teaching by and far sucks in TCMA but somehow they have managed to find the real deal...but of course there are no videos to show it in action as its all private and behing closed doors

I find it surprising that people tend to think that everything is out there on Youtube! But Hey! That's just life :rolleyes:

If you've been involved with your Sifu and his family, then you may understand the 'so-called' secrecy surrounding how people are taught and why it isn't just recorded and promoted for other peoples pleasure! Some people want to be known, and others do not seek the limelight.

It is only with the new generations that this attitude can change. Some of us have always been and always will be very open indeed ;)

[Frost]

I find it surprising that people tend to think that everything is out there on Youtube! But Hey! That's just life :rolleyes:

If you've been involved with your Sifu and his family, then you may understand the 'so-called' secrecy surrounding how people are taught and why it isn't just recorded and promoted for other peoples pleasure! Some people want to be known, and others do not seek the limelight.

It is only with the new generations that this attitude can change. Some of us have always been and always will be very open indeed ;)

H*ll they manage to put all the cr*p out there, well what everyone on here considers cr*p, or a bad resresentation of the style, why cant they put the good stuff too?

Its good you and your guys are open, do you have clips we can see of you in action?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find it surprising that people tend to think that everything is out there on Youtube! But Hey! That's just life :rolleyes:

If you've been involved with your Sifu and his family, then you may understand the 'so-called' secrecy surrounding how people are taught and why it isn't just recorded and promoted for other peoples pleasure! Some people want to be known, and others do not seek the limelight.

It is only with the new generations that this attitude can change. Some of us have always been and always will be very open indeed ;)

Actually, if you look on youtube you will find clips of great fighters, great boxers, great masters, you find excellent examples of every MA, from kyokushin to MT to kali to silat, you find excellent examples of knife work, stick work, grappling, striking, you find clips of the best soccer players, best footbal players, best swimmers, best runners, best bodybuilders, best olympians, etc, etc.
So what is wrong with youtube again?

[LoneTiger108]

H*ll they manage to put all the cr*p out there, well what everyone on here considers cr*p, or a bad resresentation of the style, why cant they put the good stuff too?

Its good you and your guys are open, do you have clips we can see of you in action?

I have only put one clip of myself 'training'. More of a test shoot for future things. BUT there are a few 'showreels' I have had the pleasure to be a part of and they're always criticized for being too flowery or NOT like the 'normal' Wing Chun :rolleyes: Can't please everyone! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108#p/u

If you're on Facebook, my Sifu has recently put up clips of him teaching that he would NEVER have done ten years ago. You might want to check them out if you're interested?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/video/?id=1058417759

Of course, you may have to join Facebnook and put in a friend request first ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Do you carry your BJD's around with you ??
Yes, in my car I have two sets of hard plastic "Do" that I use for teaching and a Cocobolo hardwood pair that I can use for "other" purposes. ;)
I keep my many steel pairs at home of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, in my car I have two sets of hard plastic "Do" that I use for teaching and a Cocobolo hardwood pair that I can use for "other" purposes. ;)
I keep my many steel pairs at home of course.

Freaking marines...

[Phil Redmond]

Freaking marines...
LOL, I just love knives. I even sleep with a Ka-Bar. There's a story to that one. My Marine Corps unit was called "Shadow Warriors" and our motto was Death in the Dark. I can talk about a real knife fight from experience.
I'm not ever sure how many BJD I have. I know that I have 440 steel, "blue" steel, Damascus steel, I'm not sure what steel my Cold Steel pair is made of. Sifu John Lee of http://www.itg8.com/ made some of mine. He even has lets you test the cutting/slicing capability of any knife or sword before you buy it. btw, whether you believe it or not I did have to slap a guy across the side of the face with the flat part of one of my knives when I lived in CT. There's a story to that one as well . . . .lol

[Phil Redmond]

Regarding the terms chopping, slicing, slashing and stabbing. Stabbing is hit and miss. You may hit a vital organ/artery and you might not. If you do it can be deadly. Slashing and slicing are the same thing IMO and they can cause trauma without too much accuracy. They both cause a long cut. I'm not sure what others are taught but in TWC the "Do" is a soft weapon requiring a dragging motion. A chop makes a smaller cut and it can cut through bone ligament and tissue. Slashing and chopping are both effective but a chop requires more force. A slash/slice cuts through the epidermal and subcutaneous layers of the skin and sinews with less force causing the muscle to protrude. I know this as a fact because it happened to me. I had to hold the muscle on my left forearm with my right hand until I was treated. A slash/slice to the body can cause disembowelment like with a Katana/Wakizashi, etc.

[k gledhill]

A lot of the BJD are 'self-inflicting' positions,strong double edged barriers, that if engaged result in cuts, we don't chase off the line for this reason, you come, you get cut...stay with what comes.
Bong becomes a raised razor edge for you to come down on as you deliver an overhand cut....etc...
Double barrier knives that allow one, depending on what side, to disembowel the opponent, while one ALWAYS protects the centerline, followed by large retreating steps, to gain 'safe' ground.....
the basic actions are chop the arm , cut the abdomen...each with body unity and facing/turning.
the basic VT 'stab' utilizes a simultaneous sharp twist of the blade to generate displacing force with the top or bottom of the blade as the tip stabs, iow a parry without leaving the line or making an opening if you chase ...your arm actually makes a 'tan' action but the arm doesnt spread off the centerline, same as bare hands. The 'hilt' of the blade is used aka the elbow....
same idea as the arm..it displaces without 'spreading' away from your centerline. It generates force from its 2 simultaneous actions ...stab, displace...in one forward action. Make that idea work either side/flank, and you have the basis of a good fighting idea. Avoid the center of an equally armed opponent , let them make the first move, stay with them and ...killl them, before they kill you.

sounds familar ? same barehand actions....

[LoneTiger108]

Great posts fellas!

Now please share some footage that shows us what you're talking about :D Preferably I want to see full speed, accuracy and power applied BUT obviously with the control of a saint as no killing is required today ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Regarding the terms chopping, slicing, slashing and stabbing. Stabbing is hit and miss. You may hit a vital organ/artery and you might not. If you do it can be deadly. Slashing and slicing are the same thing IMO and they can cause trauma without too much accuracy. They both cause a long cut. I'm not sure what others are taught but in TWC the "Do" is a soft weapon requiring a dragging motion. A chop makes a smaller cut and it can cut through bone ligament and tissue. Slashing and chopping are both effective but a chop requires more force. A slash/slice cuts through the epidermal and subcutaneous layers of the skin and sinews with less force causing the muscle to protrude. I know this as a fact because it happened to me. I had to hold the muscle on my left forearm with my right hand until I was treated. A slash/slice to the body can cause disembowelment like with a Katana/Wakizashi, etc.

heavy blades lend themselves to certain actins better than others.
The butterfly knives tend to be "cleavers" rather than "knives" if you know what I mean.
Slicing is nasty, but it rarely is a fighter ender.
A solid stab is horrid, add to that a deep cit FROM that stab and you got some serious injury there.

[Phil Redmond]

Great posts fellas!

Now please share some footage that shows us what you're talking about :D Preferably I want to see full speed, accuracy and power applied BUT obviously with the control of a saint as no killing is required today ;)
Here's two clips of a Sifu Dana Wong demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6UvbLeYTZY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYJbHo7TW10
This is a demo with GM William Cheung and Guru Dan Inosanto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SbQZrgijcw&p=5CD83A618436F340&playnext=1&index=12

[Phil Redmond]

heavy blades lend themselves to certain actins better than others.
The butterfly knives tend to be "cleavers" rather than "knives" if you know what I mean.
Slicing is nasty, but it rarely is a fighter ender.
A solid stab is horrid, add to that a deep cit FROM that stab and you got some serious injury there.
To a Cantonese speaker it's Do. Which means knife and is the same word for a cleaver. Semantics eh????
Now I'm no historian but I've been taught that since Monks used them they weren't trying to kill but to maim if they were attacked so you are correct regarding a slash/slice. Also, all Do aren't heavy. If I remember to do so. I'll lay my knives out on the floor and take a picture of them and post it. I'm proud of my collection. :D

[goju]

Actually, if you look on youtube you will find clips of great fighters, great boxers, great masters, you find excellent examples of every MA, from kyokushin to MT to kali to silat, you find excellent examples of knife work, stick work, grappling, striking, you find clips of the best soccer players, best footbal players, best swimmers, best runners, best bodybuilders, best olympians, etc, etc.
So what is wrong with youtube again?

Nothings wrong with it. It just must not be treated like the end all for martial arts as not everyone

A. Uses the video sharing site
B. Even knows what it is
C. Doesn't go on forums to hear the ever so important discussions of "your art sucks post a vid of balh blah blah"

D. Doesnt care either way

[LoneTiger108]

Here's two clips of a Sifu Dana Wong demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6UvbLeYTZY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYJbHo7TW10
This is a demo with GM William Cheung and Guru Dan Inosanto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SbQZrgijcw&p=5CD83A618436F340&playnext=1&index=12

Good clips, but definitely not great imho.

I was kinda hoping that someone might have a clip of themselves practising with the knives? What I'm getting at is this:

If the knives are to be seen as the pinnacle of Wing Chun learning, and an individual should have this knowledge before they start teaching, then why are there so very few of you on here that can 'show' anything???

And I'm asked to put up clips all the time! :eek:

My view? I think that the knives also 'show' a practitioners inefficiencies. It's obvious to even the most basic weaponry student of any other style too. The knives will ultimately show what you know about Wing Chun :D :eek:

[Phil Redmond]

Good clips, but definitely not great imho.

I was kinda hoping that someone might have a clip of themselves practising with the knives? What I'm getting at is this:

If the knives are to be seen as the pinnacle of Wing Chun learning, and an individual should have this knowledge before they start teaching, then why are there so very few of you on here that can 'show' anything???

And I'm asked to put up clips all the time! :eek:

My view? I think that the knives also 'show' a practitioners inefficiencies. It's obvious to even the most basic weaponry student of any other style too. The knives will ultimately show what you know about Wing Chun :D :eek:
If you scroll down to the bottom of this link:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/grading.asp#
you'll see that the "Do" are a requirement for Master Level.
I don't mind showing what I know of the blades. In fact they are my favorite weapon and I think I'm pretty competent with them. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Knives and knife work do NOT translate directly translate to empty hands, not effectively anyways, but empty hands do translate well enough to knives.

[LoneTiger108]

If you scroll down to the bottom of this link:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/grading.asp#
you'll see that the "Do" are a requirement for Master Level.
I don't mind showing what I know of the blades. In fact they are my favorite weapon and I think I'm pretty competent with them. ;)

That's some serious structure to your gradings there! And it helps to make my point too, as I do think many students see the knives as the ultimate.

Seeing your form would be a treat, but would you put that out in the public domain?? I know I wouldn't/couldn't BUT I could share some exercises and skill tests! :)

Personally I always favoured the pole during my training, but I was kinda forced to look at it more than others! After time, I began to appreciate the true knowledge of the blades and I'm working on getting te Lee Shing family to be a little more open about what and how we practise with them. :cool:

[Phil Redmond]

That's some serious structure to your gradings there! And it helps to make my point too, as I do think many students see the knives as the ultimate.

Seeing your form would be a treat, but would you put that out in the public domain?? I know I wouldn't/couldn't BUT I could share some exercises and skill tests! :)

Personally I always favoured the pole during my training, but I was kinda forced to look at it more than others! After time, I began to appreciate the true knowledge of the blades and I'm working on getting te Lee Shing family to be a little more open about what and how we practise with them. :cool:
In retrospect I do believe that a good pole practitioner could best the knives since it's a longer weapon.

[Phil Redmond]

Private lessons with the knives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPxNOsbVJI

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .Seeing your form would be a treat, but would you put that out in the public domain?? I know I wouldn't/couldn't BUT I could share some exercises and skill tests! :) . . .
I used to think that way 40 years ago. But I eventually learned that the secret is that there is no secret. It's all about hard training. I can show someone all my knowledge but if they don't practice diligently it means nothing.
The BJD form is on my website as are the other forms except the LDBK which I haven't gotten to yet. It'll be on my new website though.
Here is the link to the BJD form:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/bandd.asp

[cobra]

But I eventually learned that the secret is that there is no secret. It's all about hard training. I can show someone all my knowledge but if they don't practice diligently it means nothing.

That is probably the most intelligent statement I have read on this forum in a long time.