Bagua vs. Muay Thai FIGHT VIDEO

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

and the loser's comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA&NR=1

Personally I think these are just excuses. Traditionally the top fighters were the tigers of wu lin because they fought constantly.

In the modern age we cannot engage in street fights all the time.

But there is always the ring to apply our techniques, whether it is Muaythai, Sanda, MMA, Kyokushinkai (and offshoots), shootfighting, etc.... some have big boxing gloves and some have small gloves.

And if you want no gloves I'm sure you can find people who can accommodate you! But trying to say that you teach "effective, practical material" when someone doesn't have actual fighting experience is also a lie, in my opinion.

thoughts?

PS - looks like Black Taoist was helping training this guy for his fight.

[Dragonzbane76]

this vid still floating around I see.

yeah a pathetic guy trying to mouthbox his way up. MT guy was just playing with him at points thought it was funny. MT guy even got a RN choke on the dude and he had, looked like 16oz, boxing gloves on.

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

and the loser's comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA&NR=1

Personally I think these are just excuses. Traditionally the top fighters were the tigers of wu lin because they fought constantly.

In the modern age we cannot engage in street fights all the time.

But there is always the ring to apply our techniques, whether it is Muaythai, Sanda, MMA, Kyokushinkai (and offshoots), shootfighting, etc.... some have big boxing gloves and some have small gloves.

And if you want no gloves I'm sure you can find people who can accommodate you! But trying to say that you teach "effective, practical material" when someone doesn't have actual fighting experience is also a lie, in my opinion.

thoughts?

PS - looks like Black Taoist was helping training this guy for his fight.

thoughts, well if your trainer has never been in a competative fight and your sparring partners suck you are in for a bad day :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

thoughts, well if your trainer has never been in a competative fight and your sparring partners suck you are in for a bad day :)

freaking ass people and their common sense !!

[Violent Designs]

Maoshan/Blacktaoist and Maoshan's student DJ apparently calling out NakMeezy to fight in the ManUpStandUp tournament....

Personally, honestly I have seen DJ's fights and if Nak is serious about making a statement he could REALLY hurt the guy. Also they wanna do looser rules/no rules/or something like that which IMHO is worse for them as well as Nak has some rudimentary ground game and you add elbows and knees to the face and it's a whole different ballgame as well....

my 2 cents

[Syn7]

Maoshan/Blacktaoist and Maoshan's student DJ apparently calling out NakMeezy to fight in the ManUpStandUp tournament....

Personally, honestly I have seen DJ's fights and if Nak is serious about making a statement he could REALLY hurt the guy. Also they wanna do looser rules/no rules/or something like that which IMHO is worse for them as well as Nak has some rudimentary ground game and you add elbows and knees to the face and it's a whole different ballgame as well....

my 2 cents

that whole scene seems like drama to me... lots of talk, not many fights... like the sensei mo thing...

[Violent Designs]

there has already been a fight and we all saw what happened. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I guess I'll go on my rant for the day.:) Lots of talk, poor display by the Bagua guy, sour grapes after. Sometimes I wonder when this sh**it is going to end. Basically there are two types of martial artists, those who say and those who do, period. I respect people who step up to challenges but if you lose, you lose. Learn from it and move on.

But that is my philosophy and few share it. I think lots of TMA folks are too egotistical to state their flaws. This would be a great opportunity for the guy who lost to study and see what he did wrong and work on improving his game where it had holes. But instead we will see more excuses of the ring isnt the street and other such garbage. Yawn.

[David Jamieson]

Dufus = someone who thinks they got something to prove but unfortunately doesn't have the tools or wherewithal to prove it.

[SoCo KungFu]

Looking at the comments I see that douchebag BGZgayboy is still among the living...

[brothernumber9]

That's the guy that David fought a long time ago.

[Syn7]

there has already been a fight and we all saw what happened. :)

really, they eventually fought??? i dont see an over the hill point karate man taking novell... BT is too young and vibrant... is it on youtube?

[Frost]

freaking ass people and their common sense !!

hey someone else has to get there sometimes before you do, its just the law of averages get over it smart guy :)

[bawang]

this is what happens when u get trapped by forms. when u get trapped by fantasy and living in perpetual childhood. an entire life wasted and without meaning

[Syn7]

its ironic how when a cma stylist says that what they do is a good way to be a good fighter and then they agree to an mma or kickboxing match and proceed to train in boxing and bjj... wtf??? so theyre training is good enough but they choose to use the training methods from other combat sports??? rediculous....

its almost as bad as a guy saying his chinna works on the ground and then proceeds to use bjj theories to execute these cma locks...

some people will just never understand... they see the same locks and think its the same... a straight arm bar is a straight armbar and people see that and with ZERO understanding they say "see its the same" without ever realizing the difference is in the approach...:rolleyes:

[IronWeasel]

and the loser's comments
.


I like how he says that one of the reasons that he lost is that he overtrained.

Then he goes on to say that he only trained for three days before the fight!



Someone hold my beer and chips while I take on both of these guys....

[Syn7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLcw1juSnyk&feature=related

whats sad is for "internal" kung fu this guys teaching is actually pretty high standard

this is what happens when u get trapped by forms. when u get trapped by fantasy and living in perpetual childhood. an entire life wasted and without meaning

dont try to use kung fu to escape your life problems and make yourself feel important

i would like to see the results of somebody like these guys training bagua hard, every day, light to full contact sparring and basic fight prep... if they applied their art to the ring and actually trained for that...

do you think that a bagua cat and a muay thai cat that put the same amount of time in the ring sparring would be competetive at a proffesional level???

i think so...

[Syn7]

oh, and that whole iron ring thing was just embarrassing... all these rappers walking around like theyre tough... there was so much insecurity manifesting through ego, it was just sad... that whole episode was a waste of time space and money... i dont know who should be more insulted, mma cats or hiphop cats...

shonie carter has some funny views on the show and the people involved... these people were laughable... way too concerned with image and apearances, not so much concerned about hardwork and practical training... these are the kinds of people who think kimbo was hardcore based on a few clips of punching out rookies on steroids and looking mean... i wonder how these gangster thug types felt when their hero got one punched by a 3rd string crossdressing waterboy in seth petrazulli... like, how could some man-tongue licking, dress wearing, always pretending to hump males in photos beat a man who is the epitome of thug toughness??? people associate skills with appearances way too much... alot of guys get knocked out because of that kind of thinking...

how many times have we seen a nerd in highschool finally breakdown, fight back, and absolutely destroy his tormentor bully??? i'll never forget watching this thug type at my school picking on this gigantor retarded kid... gigantor manhandled him so bad... he was forever branded the guy who picked a fight with a retarded kid and got dummied...

[IronWeasel]

oh, i'll never forget watching this thug type at my school picking on this gigantor retarded kid... gigantor manhandled him so bad... he was forever branded the guy who picked a fight with a retarded kid and got dummied...



I would pay lots of money to see that video!! :)

[Syn7]

I would pay lots of money to see that video!! :)

well too bad for you... i can watch the vid anytime i want... its in my noodle:D

[goju]

i thought you had to had to have a considerable amount of coordination and flexibility to do bagua:eek:

that guy threw awkward stiff grandma kicks at the mt fighter

[taai gihk yahn]

dont try to use kung fu to escape your life problems and make yourself feel important
if one grows up in a socioeconomically depressed environment with sub-standard educational / career opportunities, one can have a pervasive sense of being socially marginalized; TCMA, because of it's scholar-warrior mythos, provides one with not only an escape from the grim realities of one's daily life, but also a means by which one can now be regarded as an authority in not only martial arts, but also in philosophy, metaphysics and medicine; and while the true lack of depth and scope of one's knowledge is readily apparent to anyone with legitimate training in any of the above noted areas, when one's student body is comprised primarily of individuals from similar socioeconomic strata, one can live that fantasy without much chance of being "found-out"; and as a result of one's tutelage, one's students may substitute this fantasy pursuit for that of guns, drugs and gangs;

OTOH, if one is living in a middle-class suburbia with little to no cultural richness in one's life, doing the 9-5 grind, or the bored-housewife gig, then a little esoterica goes a long way to giving one some sense of purpose, playing fantasy-land warrior, being privy to ancient-knowledge, spicing up one's life; and this may give one enough relief from the lifeless routine in which one was stuck to be come a more inspired and inspiring individual to those around them'

similarly, if one is a bored rich-guy, or a neurotic hot-sh1t Hollywood actor, with a sense of entitlement a mile-wide, then of course one is deserving of receiving special teaching from a hidden master who has the absolute bestest-ever secret-sauce style, and because your intrinsic fu(ked-upness is so unique, only this yoda-like avatar is the one who has the cure for what ails ye; and at the same time, one might possibly become less of an asz-hole in the process (or not, of course)

as you can see, the golden chains of TCMA fit around the ankles, wrists and necks of people from al walks of life; the question is, while it is clearly a delusional pursuit in which they are all engaged, if it helps them cope with the dysfunctionality of their lives, and possible relieves enough of their stress to make them less sh1tty spuses, parents, friends to those around them, maybe it's not such a bad thing after all?

it's all Dao in the end - to confine the path of the Way to one set of preconditions is to project one's own fragmented world-view onto the totality; which is not to say one should not follow one's own path with passion and conviction, but rather that one might perhaps not look down on the other ants just because one is a little bit further up the side of the toilet bowl than they are... ;)

[Syn7]

crab bucket....!!!

[YouKnowWho]

We should not

- exchange punches against a boxer.
- exchange punches and kicks against a MT guy.
- play clinching and wrestling game against a wrestler or Judo guy.
- play ground game against a BJJ guy.

We should use our strength to deal with our opponent's weakness.

- What's Bagua guy's stength?
- What's MT guy's weakness?

What can we learn from this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

[diego]

We should not

- exchange punches against a boxer.
- exchange punches and kicks against a MT guy.
- play clinching and wrestling game against a wrestler or Judo guy.
- play ground game against a BJJ guy.

We should use our strength to deal with our opponent's weakness.

- What's Bagua guy's stength?
- What's MT guy's weakness?

What can we learn from this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

that's part of where the trouble begins thinking one is a "stylist" guy fighting didn't begin with bagua lol you are a human animal you have to be beaten into a fighter and use "styles" as a weapon. it's really a dumb conversation the tma vs sport mma convo I mean in the end all pro fighters can expect is to be a junkie like tyson or concussed like frakenstien like Ali is this what you want your son to be? brain damaged? its poor people in thailand that do fighting or they would be in med school building spaceships and ****. any one else fighting in the big leagues is some jock who is already concussed as a sports player so he may as well make money being a pro fighter as he is too brain damaged to play real sports like basketball and hockey...

any way ****s a dumb convo none of you are fighters on the pro mma side and i'm sure hardly any of you are lineage holders maintaining your style from extinction. bleh lol

[SoCo KungFu]

that's part of where the trouble begins thinking one is a "stylist" guy fighting didn't begin with bagua lol you are a human animal you have to be beaten into a fighter and use "styles" as a weapon. it's really a dumb conversation the tma vs sport mma convo I mean in the end all pro fighters can expect is to be a junkie like tyson or concussed like frakenstien like Ali is this what you want your son to be? brain damaged? its poor people in thailand that do fighting or they would be in med school building spaceships and ****. any one else fighting in the big leagues is some jock who is already concussed as a sports player so he may as well make money being a pro fighter as he is too brain damaged to play real sports like basketball and hockey...

any way ****s a dumb convo none of you are fighters on the pro mma side and i'm sure hardly any of you are lineage holders maintaining your style from extinction. bleh lol

The irony here is that with a post this idiotic you are the one that appears brain damaged. You are the kind of mentally challenged only a blind mother could love. Aren't you special...

[SoCo KungFu]

We should not

- exchange punches against a boxer.
- exchange punches and kicks against a MT guy.
- play clinching and wrestling game against a wrestler or Judo guy.
- play ground game against a BJJ guy.

We should use our strength to deal with our opponent's weakness.

- What's Bagua guy's stength?
- What's MT guy's weakness?

What can we learn from this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

You cannot do what you aren't trained to do. This way of thinking will get you into trouble. Unless you are very well rounded you have no choice but to fight to your strengths.

The Bagua guy had no strengths in regards to this fight. His only option would be to try and strike, and in that as well he was severely outclassed.

[Hardwork108]

The irony here is that with a post this idiotic you are the one that appears brain damaged. You are the kind of mentally challenged only a blind mother could love. Aren't you special...

You just proved Diego's point...LOL

[Hardwork108]

that's part of where the trouble begins thinking one is a "stylist" guy fighting didn't begin with bagua lol you are a human animal you have to be beaten into a fighter and use "styles" as a weapon. it's really a dumb conversation the tma vs sport mma convo I mean in the end all pro fighters can expect is to be a junkie like tyson or concussed like frakenstien like Ali is this what you want your son to be? brain damaged? its poor people in thailand that do fighting or they would be in med school building spaceships and ****. any one else fighting in the big leagues is some jock who is already concussed as a sports player so he may as well make money being a pro fighter as he is too brain damaged to play real sports like basketball and hockey...

any way ****s a dumb convo none of you are fighters on the pro mma side and i'm sure hardly any of you are lineage holders maintaining your style from extinction. bleh lol

Am I right in concluding that you are saying that the "Bagua" guy had no clue about Bagua? If so, I am in total agreement with you.

[ghostexorcist]

I like how he says that one of the reasons that he lost is that he overtrained.

Then he goes on to say that he only trained for three days before the fight!

Someone hold my beer and chips while I take on both of these guys....
If you go to his youtube page, he has uploaded a video of the fight with his own commentary. In the course of roughly two and a half minutes, Maoshan manages to complain the reason that he lost was because of:

1) The obvious size difference.
2) That he hasn’t trained in wrestling.
3) Wasn’t in condition for the fight.
4) Hasn’t competitively fought for 15 years because he has been teaching.
5) Mentions training for real life combat is “Something else altogether.”
6) Keeps on mentioning he hasn’t been in the ring for a long time.
7) (In reference to Nakmeezy telling people he “beat [Maoshan’s] ass’’) Asks “when did you whip my ass?”
8) (When the video comes to the part where Nak is sitting on Maoshan’s back and punching him in the head) He says, “Wow … wow… you beat a dude who hasn’t been trained!"

I honestly could not watch the other five minutes of the video.

[Dragonzbane76]

1) The obvious size difference.
2) That he hasn’t trained in wrestling.
3) Wasn’t in condition for the fight.
4) Hasn’t competitively fought for 15 years because he has been teaching.
5) Mentions training for real life combat is “Something else altogether.”
6) Keeps on mentioning he hasn’t been in the ring for a long time.
7) (In reference to Nakmeezy telling people he “beat [Maoshan’s] ass’’) Asks “when did you whip my ass?”
8) (When the video comes to the part where Nak is sitting on Maoshan’s back and punching him in the head) He says, “Wow … wow… you beat a dude who hasn’t been trained!"

just excuses, the thing he should be looking at is, did I learn anything from that loss?

[taai gihk yahn]

1) The obvious size difference.
his fault - he knew the size difference before the fight


2) That he hasn’t trained in wrestling.
his fault - he knew the rule set included grappling before going in


3) Wasn’t in condition for the fight.
his fault - he didn't train enough


4) Hasn’t competitively fought for 15 years because he has been teaching.
his fault - don't get back into the ring if you are not actively training for it


5) Mentions training for real life combat is “Something else altogether.”
his fault - don't get in the ring if you are training for "something else altogether"

just an aside here - this is such a LAME position - sorry, full-contact ring fighting and fighting in "t3h str33t" are NOT "something else altogether" - they are variations on the same theme, which is called FIGHTING; and if you are such a hot sh1t street fighter training in a FORMAL martial art, then at the very least if you step into the ring w someone who trains primarilly for that venue, then you should at least demonstrate some knowledge of footwork, evasion, defending against leg kicks, leg grabs, leg sweeps and knees, since all of those do happen in the street! none of that was the case here - Maoshan looked and behaved like a rank amateur with no game plan and no ability to defend himself - and keep in mind that HE GAVE UP - if he is so street, where is that street-fighter attitude? the guys I know who used to thrive on street fighting, they only stopped when they were no longer physically able to keep going, not because they decided not to...


6) Keeps on mentioning he hasn’t been in the ring for a long time.
his fault - don't get back in if it's been too long


7) (In reference to Nakmeezy telling people he “beat [Maoshan’s] ass’’) Asks “when did you whip my ass?”
I think a shorter answer would be when DIDN'T he whip his asz


8) (When the video comes to the part where Nak is sitting on Maoshan’s back and punching him in the head) He says, “Wow … wow… you beat a dude who hasn’t been trained!"
his fault - don't get in the ring if you are not trained


I honestly could not watch the other five minutes of the video.
it is excruciatingly painful to watch a grown man try to rationalize away the simple fact that he got owned on every level - which would be fine, and there would be no loss of respect, except for the fact that the world had to suffer his trash talk on youtube before hand ad infinitum, ad absurdum, ad nauseum - so now it's payback time, lol...

[YouKnowWho]

that's part of where the trouble begins thinking one is a "stylist" guy fighting didn't begin with bagua
I'll be the last person on this planet who care about the word "style".

I just tried to ask questions and let others to draw conclusion. IMO, if you don't know your strength, and you also can't detect your opponent's weakness, the fight should never started in the 1st place. From that clip, that MT guy seems to know a great deal of the throwing and ground work as well.

One of my favor jokes is if you can walk in circle around your opponent faster than the lighting speed, after so many circles, your opponent may turn into a new born baby. I got that idea from the 1st SUPERMAN movie. Not a bad strategy IMO. :D

So seriously, what's the strength of a Bagua guy?


You cannot do what you aren't trained to do. This way of thinking will get you into trouble. Unless you are very well rounded you have no choice but to fight to your strengths.

The Bagua guy had no strengths in regards to this fight. His only option would be to try and strike, and in that as well he was severely outclassed.
Agree!

The Bagua guy should concentrate on his throwing skill more. I believe that should be his strength and also the weakness for "most" MT guys. Unfortunately that MT guy has good throwing skill and ground skill too.

[bawang]

maoshan really believed in what his teacher taught him and with his faith tried to use it. its sad how kung fu ppl on internet all make fun of him and say he doesnt know kung fu. obviously this guy is very skilled kung fu guy and is better than most of people here. i think he knows more about kung fu than me.
people cant accept the fact that kung fu is dog sh1t, and a high skilled kung fu guy is still dog sh1t.
i can identify with him because it also happened to me. i only hope he can overcome pride and "face" and make changes before he gets old and useless. hes already in his 40s or 50s he doesnt have much time left to reflect on his life.
what ben hill is doing defines chinese martial arts

[Syn7]

maoshan really believed in what his teacher taught him and with his faith tried to use it. its sad how kung fu ppl on internet all make fun of him and say he doesnt know kung fu. obviously this guy is very skilled kung fu guy and is better than most of people here. i think he knows more about kung fu than me.
people cant accept the fact that kung fu is dog sh1t, and a high skilled kung fu guy is still dog sh1t.
i can identify with him because it also happened to me. i only hope he can overcome pride and "face" and make changes before he gets old and useless. hes already in his 40s or 50s he doesnt have much time left to reflect on his life.
what ben hill is doing defines chinese martial arts

yeah i wouldnt go as far as saying useless... even if you cant fight at all but train your forms hard and do alot of drilling, you'll still get healthy and the longevity aspects still apply...

if you want to be a fighter you must do drills that make you hard build on your bone density... iron body works... i think alot of tcma would do well after an adjustment period if they were to spar with as many other styles as possible... if they were totake it into the cage against cage fighters i think they could adapt evntually and not only build on their style but also find creative ways to use their tcma principles and stay true to their fundamentals...

as for the street, same thing, just no rules, so all techniques are allowed... in No Gi for mma we do more than whats allowed in the cage... its not all sport, we also train pressure points, small joint manipulation, breaks, illegal strikes to illegal targets like the spine, back of the neck, etc etc...

alot of tcma has what it needs to be effective, its the people who are applying it that are the fukc-ups, the weak link in the chain so to speak... its not that tcma doesnt work, its that most tcma cats dont know how to work it becvause they never use it for real... you get a guy who has never fought for real and teaches his style to somebody who in turn teaches it and so on... you look at these 3rd and 4th generations and they are so far removed from reality that its laughable to anyone who actually fights...

like bawang said, they need a reality check and if they take heed theres no reason why they cant change for the better...

personally, im working on developing my short power, i feel i can use this in combination with my grappling really well, from top, botton, clinch... i want to be able to deliver a devastating blow to the noodle from my back to a cat thats in my guard... or GnP, rain on em, short and fast, no recovery time because these arent haymakers... and in the clinch, i think bak mei will be of great use, and not in the chunner kind of way, i mean a ferocious actualy do damage kind of way... combine this with muaythai on the outside and the ground game... i think tcma is very helpful and i dont believe the bad rap tcma is getting, i dont think its the systems(well, some are garbage, but theres alot of good systems), i think its the people who dont apply the systems properly, with an open mind, well rounded... as long as pussies practice tcma and claim its too deadly to even spar without wearing a full body padded suit, alot of tcma's are gonna produce more pussies...

its ego then ignorance... faith is ignorance, by defenition... try and test everything asmuch as you can if you want to be able to fight for real... otherwise the only people you'll be able to win against will be drunk bar thugs and crackheads... but when a real fighter steps up, youre done... reality check...

[cerebus]

people cant accept the fact that kung fu is dog sh1t, and a high skilled kung fu guy is still dog sh1t.

No, actually it's just your understanding of kung fu (which is really a complete LACK of understanding) which is "dog sh1t".

Maoshan's understanding and skill in certain areas of kung fu may be quite decent, but the problem is that he has concentrated solely on those areas and is missing some of the KEY elements which are necessary to actually USE one's kung fu in a fight. Those key elements are conditioning and full-contact sparring. Without those, one should never step into a fighting ring.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

kung fu may be quite decent, but the problem is that he has concentrated solely on those areas and is missing some of the KEY elements which are necessary to actually USE one's kung fu in a fight.

This. A thousand times this.

Chang Quan, Chi Sao, Qin Na, Shuai Jiao, Tui Shou... it's all explicitly there, much of it associated with specific styles... the only one not classically represented is Ground submissions.

Almost seems deliberate, too (the isolation of skill into style.)

Luckily, Kung Fu is no humpty dumpty. We can put it back together again if we know where to find the pieces and what kind of glue to use.

I'm working on it - hope you all are too.

[Violent Designs]

This. A thousand times this.

Chang Quan, Chi Sao, Qin Na, Shuai Jiao, Tui Shou... it's all explicitly there, much of it associated with specific styles... the only one not classically represented is Ground submissions.

Almost seems deliberate, too (the isolation of skill into style.)

Luckily, Kung Fu is no humpty dumpty. We can put it back together again if we know where to find the pieces and what kind of glue to use.

I'm working on it - hope you all are too.

F*ck yes I am working on it!!! I plan on building a website in the future looking at my studies into Chinese martial arts and Muay Thai and trying to give my honest opinion on the state of CMA, combat sports, other martial arts and the entire spectrum of related subjects, and how they inter-relate with each other.

[Frost]

yeah i wouldnt go as far as saying useless... even if you cant fight at all but train your forms hard and do alot of drilling, you'll still get healthy and the longevity aspects still apply...

if you want to be a fighter you must do drills that make you hard build on your bone density... iron body works... i think alot of tcma would do well after an adjustment period if they were to spar with as many other styles as possible... if they were totake it into the cage against cage fighters i think they could adapt evntually and not only build on their style but also find creative ways to use their tcma principles and stay true to their fundamentals...

as for the street, same thing, just no rules, so all techniques are allowed... in No Gi for mma we do more than whats allowed in the cage... its not all sport, we also train pressure points, small joint manipulation, breaks, illegal strikes to illegal targets like the spine, back of the neck, etc etc...

alot of tcma has what it needs to be effective, its the people who are applying it that are the fukc-ups, the weak link in the chain so to speak... its not that tcma doesnt work, its that most tcma cats dont know how to work it becvause they never use it for real... you get a guy who has never fought for real and teaches his style to somebody who in turn teaches it and so on... you look at these 3rd and 4th generations and they are so far removed from reality that its laughable to anyone who actually fights...

like bawang said, they need a reality check and if they take heed theres no reason why they cant change for the better...

personally, im working on developing my short power, i feel i can use this in combination with my grappling really well, from top, botton, clinch... i want to be able to deliver a devastating blow to the noodle from my back to a cat thats in my guard... or GnP, rain on em, short and fast, no recovery time because these arent haymakers... and in the clinch, i think bak mei will be of great use, and not in the chunner kind of way, i mean a ferocious actualy do damage kind of way... combine this with muaythai on the outside and the ground game... i think tcma is very helpful and i dont believe the bad rap tcma is getting, i dont think its the systems(well, some are garbage, but theres alot of good systems), i think its the people who dont apply the systems properly, with an open mind, well rounded... as long as pussies practice tcma and claim its too deadly to even spar without wearing a full body padded suit, alot of tcma's are gonna produce more pussies...

its ego then ignorance... faith is ignorance, by defenition... try and test everything asmuch as you can if you want to be able to fight for real... otherwise the only people you'll be able to win against will be drunk bar thugs and crackheads... but when a real fighter steps up, youre done... reality check...

short power can work on the ground but for me its normally done on top not underneath, on the bottom you cant generate the power as you do standing, it comes down to just arm power, on top in the guard it can be used, but i prefer the yung ying way of producing power used with its the hammer fist from various angles, it all works well in the clinch as long as you have a clinch game to start with lol :)

[Jorge]

short power can work on the ground but for me its normally done on top not underneath, on the bottom you cant generate the power as you do standing, it comes down to just arm power, on top in the guard it can be used, but i prefer the yung ying way of producing power used with its the hammer fist from various angles, it all works well in the clinch as long as you have a clinch game to start with lol :)

Bro, does lung ying have tarn ging (springy power/energy)? Where do you normally aim your soy kuils at?

Thanks in advance.

[bawang]

No, actually it's just your understanding of kung fu (which is really a complete LACK of understanding) which is "dog sh1t".

Maoshan's understanding and skill in certain areas of kung fu may be quite decent, but the problem is that he has concentrated solely on those areas and is missing some of the KEY elements which are necessary to actually USE one's kung fu in a fight. Those key elements are conditioning and full-contact sparring. Without those, one should never step into a fighting ring.

noe ur mom has complete understanding. ben hill did conditioning he was
hitting trees and doing fingertip pushups and tings. he did better than u

u can see what went wrong wit maoshan if u look as his teaching video. its all make a bridge this make a bridge that qinna finger grapple. its the inherent dog sh1t content and nature of his kung fu that made him lose. his style is sh1t, his old chinese teacher is sh1t, so he is sh1t. no matter how hard u condition and spar u try that bridging nonsense u get knocked the fuk out boom boom its over.

kung fu doesnt produce fighters anymore it produces rice bowls and money trees. its not a way of life its a business oprtunity for cultural robbers.

u teach real kung fu then in 1 year ur student finishes learning eveything and leaves you, you cant make easy monies

[David Jamieson]

If you are going to fight fire, you have to learn what fire is and how to create it and then how to use it. If you spend your time learning about water, you will not have understanding of fire.

There was that cryptic enough? lol

Point being is that while maoshan may have been training bagua, what he wasn't training was how to fight with it.

He missed out on some fundamental things about training to fight and it had nothing to do with practicing his art. He lacked partenr work with someone who was gonna launch all those types of attacks and use the atypical strategies of someone who fights regularly.

kung fu practitioner never equals seasoned fighter. It's just practice. If you wanna be a fighter, then you got to fight. :p

[Syn7]

noe ur mom has complete understanding. ben hill did conditioning he was
hitting trees and doing fingertip pushups and tings. he did better than u

u can see what went wrong wit maoshan if u look as his teaching video. its all make a bridge this make a bridge that qinna finger grapple. its the inherent dog sh1t content and nature of his kung fu that made him lose. his style is sh1t, his old chinese teacher is sh1t, so he is sh1t. no matter how hard u condition and spar u try that bridging nonsense u get knocked the fuk out boom boom its over.

kung fu doesnt produce fighters anymore it produces rice bowls and money trees. its not a way of life its a business oprtunity for cultural robbers.

u teach real kung fu then in 1 year ur student finishes learning eveything and leaves you, you cant make easy monies

my sifu(wu wai kwan aka wilkie wu, the real one. not the SF fraud) doesnt get paid for teaching... atleast not much... his money comes from his day job... thats real... he does it for the love of the art...

[Violent Designs]

my sifu(wu wai kwan aka wilkie wu, the real one. not the SF fraud) doesnt get paid for teaching... atleast not much... his money comes from his day job... thats real... he does it for the love of the art...

Funny, my Sifu doesn't take take money either... just wants his students to be dedicated as hell or else he's kicking you out!!! :D

[Syn7]

we pay... just not much, it pretty much covers costs of running the school... its my understanding that the fee goes to the oldskool hk style athletic association... rent, heat, power, etc...

my sifu certainly didnt buy his house and two nice benz from a 60 dollar fee from a handful of students, half of whom dont even pay... i was broke when i started, i payed the first month then sifu spotted me till i could pay... gave me gear and stuff too, takes us out to lunch on sundays and days we do demos... and ofcourse we always get the lucky money envelope all the time... and uncle eddie even gives us yang taiji or free before and after classes, aswell as showing us random stuff we wouldnt have learned in class... gotta love the ancients in the back...

does these means we's have's the reals gong fu, bawang???

[bawang]

mang dun b dum . im generalizing

[Violent Designs]

mang dun b dum . im generalizing

I've known you for long enough to know exactly what you are talking about. ;)

And had enough hard sparring/fights, gotten my ass kicked enough times to know what is real, fake, bullsh1t or legitimate....

[Syn7]

I've known you for long enough to know exactly what you are talking about. ;)

And had enough hard sparring/fights, gotten my ass kicked enough times to know what is real, fake, bullsh1t or legitimate....

well la di da!!! arent you so fukcing special!!!:p

[tiaji1983]

u teach real kung fu then in 1 year ur student finishes learning eveything and leaves you, you cant make easy monies


Very true Bawang!!!! thats how my teacher teaches.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

u teach real kung fu then in 1 year ur student finishes learning eveything and leaves you, you cant make easy monies


Very true Bawang!!!! thats how my teacher teaches.

So... your teacher drags your training out?

[Syn7]

So... your teacher drags your training out?

i was thinking the same thing??? are you saying this is a good thing, taiji??? that your sifu is sapping his students??? basing their curriculum on getting the most money rather than the best course for getting the best results and value for their dollar for each student???

[3DeeMonk]

First off, much respect to all styles.

I dont know about this video but I just sparred with a Muay Thai guy in the street. I must say Bagua is not meant to be in a ring with rules. The song and dance without Fajin will equal the result in this video. Thus why the MT dude dominated.

Anyhow, back to my personal experience. Bagua...at least Yin Style...is not meant to play, dance or back paddle. I knocked down my opponent three times...cold, crisp and fast and all within a 30 sec to a minute of our session. We put only 20 to 30 percent in effort in 3 - 3 to 5 minute rounds. In a real fight, the ornate changes in Bagua and quick control of the situation would of won in just a few moments.

MY MISTAKE was that I felt bad and eased up(STUPID MISTAKE in my part) to prolong the training to three rounds and have a happy ending of no one getting hurt. This mistake led to my legs getting chopped away with Muay Thai's thigh kicks....which still aches and its been 4 days now. The 8 oz gloves worn was a total disadvantage for me and it was hard to tear, push and pull with simultaneous motions. My only glorified moments was when I executed Lion cutting and monkey strikes. The cool stuff was not executed due to rules and the false safety thick ass gloves that was worn.

I say we both won and made mistakes. His mistake was to under estimate me at the very beginning. My mistake was going soft after a few slams and played a game in Muay Thai's court wearing gear that took away my empty palms.

What I LOVED about this interaction was seeing and getting first hand insight on RECEIVING Muay Thai combos. Now my experience is to cut and shave what would work in a ring from Bagua methods that would be regulated.

Any case guys, A LIFE TIME OF practice does not mount to ONE real fight. It is those who HUMBLY spar and fight other styles...to learn from mistakes and still have all body parts to function in full and to continue to chisel your body as a tool to become a great fighter.

My sparring partner said, "wow, you made me nervous and that Muay Thai is meant to hurt but your stuff is meant to kill...I like what you brought to the table, it was new and a great experience." I can only agree and smile while enjoying the same experience.

Now we are friends and going to spar again next week. Just thought I'd share.

I would have more respect from both parties if they show continuing education by humbly sparring other styles...whether you lose or not. Its not Gladiator, you can lose a fight, still live and still fight, your life is not taken.Take advantage of modern cage fights/sparring methods and quit making excuses and nonsense ranting. Life is too short, no time for **** measure.

PEACE.

[David Jamieson]

Bagua is good for handling drunks. And that's pretty much it in my opinion.

It's useless against a seasoned boxer or kickboxer and nobody trains any so called internal martial arts in any way shape or form near the intensity required to step into a ring fight with a conditioned and stamina ready fighter with attitude.

I have yet to see a single so called IMA fighter succeed with a sport fight.

[Hardwork108]

Domination or Dumb-in-nation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, much respect to all styles.

I dont know about this video but I just sparred with a Muay Thai guy in the street. I must say Bagua is not meant to be in a ring with rules. The song and dance without Fajin will equal the result in this video. Thus why the MT dude dominated.

Anyhow, back to my personal experience. Bagua...at least Yin Style...is not meant to play, dance or back paddle. I knocked down my opponent three times...cold, crisp and fast and all within a 30 sec to a minute of our session. We put only 20 to 30 percent in effort in 3 - 3 to 5 minute rounds. In a real fight, the ornate changes in Bagua and quick control of the situation would of won in just a few moments.

MY MISTAKE was that I felt bad and eased up(STUPID MISTAKE in my part) to prolong the training to three rounds and have a happy ending of no one getting hurt. This mistake led to my legs getting chopped away with Muay Thai's thigh kicks....which still aches and its been 4 days now. The 8 oz gloves worn was a total disadvantage for me and it was hard to tear, push and pull with simultaneous motions. My only glorified moments was when I executed Lion cutting and monkey strikes. The cool stuff was not executed due to rules and the false safety thick ass gloves that was worn.

I say we both won and made mistakes. His mistake was to under estimate me at the very beginning. My mistake was going soft after a few slams and played a game in Muay Thai's court wearing gear that took away my empty palms.

What I LOVED about this interaction was seeing and getting first hand insight on RECEIVING Muay Thai combos. Now my experience is to cut and shave what would work in a ring from Bagua methods that would be regulated.

Any case guys, A LIFE TIME OF practice does not mount to ONE real fight. It is those who HUMBLY spar and fight other styles...to learn from mistakes and still have all body parts to function in full and to continue to chisel your body as a tool to become a great fighter.

My sparring partner said, "wow, you made me nervous and that Muay Thai is meant to hurt but your stuff is meant to kill...I like what you brought to the table, it was new and a great experience." I can only agree and smile while enjoying the same experience.

Now we are friends and going to spar again next week. Just thought I'd share.

I would have more respect from both parties if they show continuing education by humbly sparring other styles...whether you lose or not. Its not Gladiator, you can lose a fight, still live and still fight, your life is not taken.Take advantage of modern cage fights/sparring methods and quit making excuses and nonsense ranting. Life is too short, no time for **** measure.

PEACE.
09-20-2010 08:16 AM ¨




Bagua is good for handling drunks. And that's pretty much it in my opinion.

It's useless against a seasoned boxer or kickboxer and nobody trains any so called internal martial arts in any way shape or form near the intensity required to step into a ring fight with a conditioned and stamina ready fighter with attitude.

I have yet to see a single so called IMA fighter succeed with a sport fight.

Why do you always miss the point????

The man said that he sparred a MT guy. He was kind enough to tell us about his experience, and also made other sensible points. Yet, you ignore all that and gave your clueless opinion about one of the most powerful kung fu styles out there.

My advice to you is to find a REAL kung fu sifu, and train for some years, yes years and not a year, as despite popular belief by this forum's kung fu clueless knuckleheads, you don't become a kung fu master in one year! In fact you don't even get a basic understanding of the principles in one year!

There you go, now take that advice and leave the "smart ass" comments to the smart people.;)

[Frost]

First off, much respect to all styles.

I dont know about this video but I just sparred with a Muay Thai guy in the street. I must say Bagua is not meant to be in a ring with rules. The song and dance without Fajin will equal the result in this video. Thus why the MT dude dominated.

Anyhow, back to my personal experience. Bagua...at least Yin Style...is not meant to play, dance or back paddle. I knocked down my opponent three times...cold, crisp and fast and all within a 30 sec to a minute of our session. We put only 20 to 30 percent in effort in 3 - 3 to 5 minute rounds. In a real fight, the ornate changes in Bagua and quick control of the situation would of won in just a few moments.

MY MISTAKE was that I felt bad and eased up(STUPID MISTAKE in my part) to prolong the training to three rounds and have a happy ending of no one getting hurt. This mistake led to my legs getting chopped away with Muay Thai's thigh kicks....which still aches and its been 4 days now. The 8 oz gloves worn was a total disadvantage for me and it was hard to tear, push and pull with simultaneous motions. My only glorified moments was when I executed Lion cutting and monkey strikes. The cool stuff was not executed due to rules and the false safety thick ass gloves that was worn.

I say we both won and made mistakes. His mistake was to under estimate me at the very beginning. My mistake was going soft after a few slams and played a game in Muay Thai's court wearing gear that took away my empty palms.

What I LOVED about this interaction was seeing and getting first hand insight on RECEIVING Muay Thai combos. Now my experience is to cut and shave what would work in a ring from Bagua methods that would be regulated.

Any case guys, A LIFE TIME OF practice does not mount to ONE real fight. It is those who HUMBLY spar and fight other styles...to learn from mistakes and still have all body parts to function in full and to continue to chisel your body as a tool to become a great fighter.

My sparring partner said, "wow, you made me nervous and that Muay Thai is meant to hurt but your stuff is meant to kill...I like what you brought to the table, it was new and a great experience." I can only agree and smile while enjoying the same experience.

Now we are friends and going to spar again next week. Just thought I'd share.

I would have more respect from both parties if they show continuing education by humbly sparring other styles...whether you lose or not. Its not Gladiator, you can lose a fight, still live and still fight, your life is not taken.Take advantage of modern cage fights/sparring methods and quit making excuses and nonsense ranting. Life is too short, no time for **** measure.

PEACE.

lord another one

[Hardwork108]

lord another one

I still say that you should be posting in an MMA forum. ;)

[Frost]

I still say that you should be posting in an MMA forum. ;)

who says i dont :)

[Hardwork108]

who says i dont :)

You should keep your posts there, perhaps....;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If this person's bagua can't work under controlled circumstances in which he is in a level playing field, how can it ever hope to work were there are "no rules" and his opponent won't "play fair"?

As Ron Burgandy would say:
"That doesn't make any sense".

[wiz cool c]

Bagua is good for handling drunks. And that's pretty much it in my opinion.

It's useless against a seasoned boxer or kickboxer and nobody trains any so called internal martial arts in any way shape or form near the intensity required to step into a ring fight with a conditioned and stamina ready fighter with attitude.

I have yet to see a single so called IMA fighter succeed with a sport fight.

max chen tai chi sanda fighter,has won many fights in the ring

[lkfmdc]

max chen tai chi sanda fighter,has won many fights in the ring

please don't go on about how Max Chen is a tai Chi fighter... he has trained with NY San Da, Boston Sanshou, Cung Le, with free form boxing (Western boxing team) and with Phil Nurse (Muay Thai). People in NYC laugh when they talk about his "proud tai chi fighting tradition" because it simply is complete BS

[sanjuro_ronin]

please don't go on about how Max Chen is a tai Chi fighter... he has trained with NY San Da, Boston Sanshou, Cung Le, with free form boxing (Western boxing team) and with Phil Nurse (Muay Thai). People in NYC laugh when they talk about his "proud tai chi fighting tradition" because it simply is complete BS

That said, you know his Dad's feelings on the BS in taichi and one knows that Max and his sister ( Tiffany?), got their "practicality: from their old man.

[David Jamieson]

max chen tai chi sanda fighter,has won many fights in the ring

what is taichi san da?

i'm pretty sure when he gets in a san da ring, he uses san da and fights to san da rules.

no baguazhang, no taijiquan

I haven't even seen any toughman type things where so called IMA can actually field a real player.

However, when it comes to handling drunks and ruffians who lack skill, it's pretty cool and handy.

[bawang]

theres no such thing as fukin thai chee. chen village trained cannon boxing and long fist.

[David Jamieson]

theres no such thing as fukin thai chee. chen village trained cannon boxing and long fist.

chen village trained shaolin kung fu that is correct.

[bawang]

i want to bring this up again and say that i think its not mao shan aka ben hill's fault. he tried his best, he believed his teacher and put faith in kung fu. i only hope he can learn a lesson from this.

[Water-quan]

i want to bring this up again and say that i think its not mao shan aka ben hill's fault. he tried his best, he believed his teacher and put faith in kung fu. i only hope he can learn a lesson from this.

Well then it's his fault. Everything that comes out of our mouths in regards to serious, polemical and aggresive stances on subjects, it's obviously our responsibility to check, as far as possible, that it's true.

Everyone we believe, it's our fault for believing them. Not that that excuses frauds for doing what they do, but there's not a fraud in the land who doesn't have some patsy saying 'I can guarantee you that he's the real deal!'

Perhaps if the mouthpieces worried more about the truth, and less about their own eventually accession to position of chief fraud, we'd have less of this crap.

As for the actual fight, I love how the thai boxer demolished the other guy, completely proved his superiority, and a whole, depsicable spin and defamation and insult horde has swung in to action to attack him - the same that happens all the time when CMAists get called out on their fake ness... as if, they've spent so long proving their daft claims with words only, they think that even when they've been shown up they can still talk and insult their way out of it. Lol.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Fighters fight. Fighters win. Fighters lose.

Anyone who has ever fought competitively knows this, which is why "real" fighters are much more humble than other a**ss clowns who pretend that they fight and tell everyone they fight yet never do. And in the rare case that they do, they backpeddle and make excuses and talk sh**it about why they lost instead of being a man about it and simply saying the other guy was a better fighter on this day.

Sometimes honor can be earned as much in defeat as it can in victory.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fighters fight. Fighters win. Fighters lose.

Anyone who has ever fought competitively knows this, which is why "real" fighters are much more humble than other a**ss clowns who pretend that they fight and tell everyone they fight yet never do. And in the rare case that they do, they backpeddle and make excuses and talk sh**it about why they lost instead of being a man about it and simply saying the other guy was a better fighter on this day.

Sometimes honor can be earned as much in defeat as it can in victory.

No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.
Fact is that unless you have fought and fought people that KNOW how to fight, you will never be able to take your MA, whichever it may be, to the other level.
Doesn't matter if you were a good fighter or great fighter or lost more than you won, what matters is that you tested it VS the highest caliber you could and found out what works and what doesn't and evolved accordingly.
THAT is what makes one a Martial Artist AND a Fighter.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.
Fact is that unless you have fought and fought people that KNOW how to fight, you will never be able to take your MA, whichever it may be, to the other level.
Doesn't matter if you were a good fighter or great fighter or lost more than you won, what matters is that you tested it VS the highest caliber you could and found out what works and what doesn't and evolved accordingly.
THAT is what makes one a Martial Artist AND a Fighter.

Quoted for Truth!!;)

[lkfmdc]

No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.
Fact is that unless you have fought and fought people that KNOW how to fight, you will never be able to take your MA, whichever it may be, to the other level.
Doesn't matter if you were a good fighter or great fighter or lost more than you won, what matters is that you tested it VS the highest caliber you could and found out what works and what doesn't and evolved accordingly.
THAT is what makes one a Martial Artist AND a Fighter.

People here scoff at "sport" and "competition" but the fact remains, the reason they work is they tell you exactly where you are in the food chain

I've been in rooms with amateurs, professional and world champion professionals. I've worked with guys who are light years ahead of me, and then seen them get waxed by guys ahead of them

I've done "plam" (neck wrestling) with guys who lived and trained in Thailand. I've wrestled with division one wrestlers. If you havent' done stuff like that, you really have no idea what things really are like when they "go down"

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I've done "plam" (neck wrestling) with guys who lived and trained in Thailand. I've wrestled with division one wrestlers. If you havent' done stuff like that, you really have no idea what things really are like when they "go down

Are you trying to say that dropping into a horse stance and putting an elbow to the back of a Div 1 wrestler's head won't stop the takedown!! I need proof.:p:D

[lkfmdc]

Are you trying to say that dropping into a horse stance and putting an elbow to the back of a Div 1 wrestler's head won't stop the takedown!! I need proof.:p:D

a div II guy will look at a junior college wrestler and be like "what are you retarded?" - ie he would never fall for his basic attacks. a div I guy would "eat his lunch". If you are talking about "all americans" or champions, it is an entirely different level

[Iron_Eagle_76]

a div II guy will look at a junior college wrestler and be like "what are you retarded?" - ie he would never fall for his basic attacks. a div I guy would "eat his lunch". If you are talking about "all americans" or champions, it is an entirely different level

Which further proves that those at that elite level get their through competing against the very best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYu3cCYBSRQ

The footwork and movement these guys possess is unbelievable!

[lkfmdc]

Which further proves that those at that elite level get their through competing against the very best.



"steel sharpens steel"




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYu3cCYBSRQ

The footwork and movement these guys possess is unbelievable!



OSU coach Smith is a legend

[Dragonzbane76]

Which further proves that those at that elite level get their through competing against the very best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYu3cCYBSRQ

The footwork and movement these guys possess is unbelievable!


"steel sharpens steel"

the scramble is so under rated and undertrained in most MA. The ability to move fast and gain dominant position and control is lacked in many.

Now you see a lot of top BJJ and grapplers taking to the training in wrestling. wrestling has it's faults in fighting but it sure has as hell has a base for domination and movement.

I laugh most times when "traditionalist" speak of wrestling and how it's just guys humping each other on the ground. They have never rolled with a college div. wrestler and seen how easy it is for them to put you on your back.

[Razaunida]

Yeah it wasn't great.

My first fight against a golden gloves boxer wasn't that great either.

Internal arts are great, but you need a great foundation in "external" first.

After I could kickbox very well, I learned taiji and learned how to walk through people. Kickboxing is basics. Foundation kung fu should look a lot like Muay Thai...thats what it is, basics from the Ming Dyansty...you know..what people consider to be the height of Chinese Martial arts. Look at the armour of the Thai warriors...this is exactly Ming Dynasty armor.

Want to see the next Cung Le? His foundation is in Kung fu and his foundation is good, that is why he can Thai box too. http://www.teamtenpow.com/

Once you can fight, then you learn stepping and can mess people up.