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Qi Xing Tong Long
09-27-2000, 05:09 PM
Hello, List:

In my recent studies with Lee Kam Wing Sifu, I was told by him that the 7 Star Mantis style only has 82 forms including the Lo Hon Gung.

These words come from the only active Sifu under Chiu Chi Man SiGung. All others have retired or not interested in teaching mantis to anyone.

Why, is it then that some 7 Star Mantis families have added extra forms into the complete curriculum of the 7 Star Mantis system?.

I don't see the logic behind it at all. Granted it's cool to know some different sets, but for what? You have a hard enough time mastering what you are suppose to know.

I am very happy that Lee Kam Wing Sifu has accepted me as his student and appointed me his representative for the State of New York. I don't disregard what my Sifu's have taught me, but what has really happened here is that now, we can put everything that we have learned in the past in it's right place.

Lee Kam Wing Sifu, has made some corrections to my forms, but I have notice that it has been corrections of symantics, rather than "boy that whole form is wrong". This has made me feel secure in the teachers that I have had in the past.

Finally we have here in the United States the opportunity to train with a true master of the 7 Star Mantis style and he is willing to share it with everyone who is willing to learn the proper way of doing 7 Star Mantis, regardless of what your concepts are in your method of teaching fighting.

So, again to my question, why 110 or 180 forms?

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

"Concepts are an act of experience"
R. Ortiz, Jr.

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

bamboo_ leaf
09-27-2000, 06:12 PM
I too have often wonderd about why so many sets in
the mantis system. i have 2 questions. these are directed towards noted long time players or Sifu of 7* system.

1. what would you consider the number of sets needed to understand the core princaples and usage of the style.

2. what if thier is such a thing would be the minamal number and sets one would need to know.

these are things that i have wonderd about, thanks for any insights.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

BeiTangLang
09-27-2000, 07:42 PM
You are the rep of NY,....give us your opinion of why! Many of us (most actually) here are not qualified to answer such a question.
Give us the scoup if you will!!
-BTL

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

Qi Xing Tong Long
09-28-2000, 12:21 AM
bamboo_leaf:

In my opinion is not how many forms you know, but how well you know them. Also, the fact of the matter is this. To learn the complete system of mantis, you must learm 82 forms.

Lee Kam Wing Sifu said that there are 6 very important forms in the 7 Star Mantis. They teach the inner essence in mantis.

These major six forms you must master in and out to understand the mantis system. You can't really learn mantis if you do not understand these forms.

Hope this was of help.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

Qi Xing Tong Long
09-28-2000, 12:31 AM
BTL:

I'm in no position of qualification to be able and answer that question either.

All I want to know is why? If Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms, then why are some schools teaching more.

What was the purpose?

Don't get me wrong sometimes more is good!

Peace

Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

bamboo_ leaf
09-28-2000, 12:59 AM
thanks, good informantion from one the of leaders in our field.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

mantis7
09-28-2000, 04:22 AM
Well for what ever reason a paticular sect uses as many sets to define there style is there reason as far as I see it.....

The reason someone may add a form some where down the line may be to leave there mark on Mantis.. Sort of a legacy..... NO one knows how many forms Wong Long created or How many are truly from the original roots.... Lo Kwan yu added or created sets... HE did this is he wrong from adding to his masters system...???

I feel the answer to this is NO!!! As long as you follow the guide lines of the system heck scratch that as long as you improve and enhance a system add a way.. Each teacher will instruct and prove their training diffrently.. Like you said Sifu it is all symantics.....

Be it 80 sets or 110 sets.. There were forms added to mantis to round it out from the jing wu Association.. ( ie gung lie kuen)

If you all see the Lawclansman web site they have 110 hand sets???? is that wrong NO.. It just represents the way Sigung taught Sifu Albright.... Those are just hand sets... There are more weapon sets and two man forms....So Chuen luen was a CCM student that studied before Lee kam wing came in the picture ( If I am wrong please correct me )... CCM was his uncle wasnt he...The information he gave to his students is sound and time tested.. a majority of the mantis practioners out there on the east coast saught him out and learned from him...!! was his teachings off??? A major amount of Mnatis Practioners on the east coast are of the Chuen luen lineage if I am not mistaken but then again I could be wrong......

Forms are the essence of training your technical skills... just like shadow boxing a forms is just a set of technical skills performed in a patterend matter.... So amount doesnt really acount for anything..

If amount matters then look to pre date jing wu or better yet all should find a way to looking back towards wong long creation of his first sets or even better looking back even further towards wong longs first systems of study before creating mantis......

Like you always told me sifu all that matters is you knowing your craft and being able to apply it to any given situation....plus if it gets to the point of that you are playing the set wrong I dont like that either I like performing my mantis sets explosively ( like sifu Ortiz taught me )soon it will go from we dont have that form to ohh you use to much strength or you are to fast.... Hey to each there own....

But like I always say "what do I know" I am still peeling back the layers to the mantis systems I am still trying to unravel Bung bo...LOL

I am not trying to bash or upset anyone but this disscussion can go on for ever.... No one will ever agree on the amount the 7* mantis system sets should be... and to tell you the truth I wish it wouldnt be.. If it was mantis would never be enhanced or bettered plus I find forms are a good teaching technique and the variety is very nice added treat... but that is just my opinion....

But all in all set or added set are to be there to enhance and or leave a mark on the system or a practioners attempt to pay tribute to there art...!!!

Victor /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LawClansman
09-28-2000, 06:47 AM
Sifu Raul,

While your question as to why have so many forms is a logical one, to follow it with the fact that you are willing to learn 82 is illogical. Is 82 really that different than 110? By the way, Jimmy Choy (Choy Wing Sing) is still teaching and he is a student of Chiu Chi Man.

If Sifu Chiu Leun was in Mantis 22 years before LKW started (he was) Than this could easily account for the lesser number. Perhaps there are other considerations. But it really dosen't matter. When a student comes into my school, I would NEVER even think they would learn more than 30 or so hand forms in some number of years. Even I don't know 110 forms and I have been in THIS clan for 30 years AND ten years with other seven star teachers before that.


Truth be known, I actually violated a confidance by making it public the amount of forms. No one is suppose to know. I really got it for letting that cat out of the bag. It was suppose to be clan knowledge. I wasn't trying to impress anyone, I just don't believe in secrets.

If you are a LKW student that is great. I hope you are planning more than one trip a year to train with him. He is a nice man and an excellent Sifu and I am sure he will become even more famous with the production of his new video tapes. Good luck to you and him.

Sifu Carl

Qi Xing Tong Long
09-28-2000, 03:40 PM
Mantis 7:

Yes, Lo Kwang Yu added forms to his 7 Star Mantis, after coming to the Jing Wu. The forms that he added completed the 82 sets that we have now. Besides in the Jing Wu, you had to learn 10 primary forms of the styles represented and then master the art that you wanted. Lo Kwang Yu was invited to teach 7 Star.

I never said, that learning extra forms was bad.
But, what Lo Kwang Yu did was accepted by all the other masters of 7 Star Mantis of that time.

How you teach what you learn has nothing to do with what you are supposed to know and pass on.
What I am trying to say here is simple. Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms to CCM and CCM taught 82 forms to Chiu Leun.

In the four books that he received from CCM there are only 82 forms (hands & weapons). What is so hard for you to understand. I am not saying that the other forms that he teaches are wrong.

The other forms that he teaches after the 82 are just not part of the 7 Star Mantis form sets, that's all. Master Chiu Leun is highly respected and held in the highest regards, especially by me.

I'll give you an i.e., when you go to college to get a degree, you apply for the major of your choice. You see what the requirements are, in order to complete the course and get your BA/BS degree. If you want the masters or the phd, then there is some more material to cover, so you do.

The point that I am trying to make is this, the college education for the particular discipline has it's end, and when you reach it you have gained everything there was on that subject. People have the misconception, that in order to master something, you have to continue learning new things.

No, you don't need to learn new things, what you need to do is practice what you have and dissect it. This is the true way of mastering something, because then you have full understanding of what you are doing.

Look, I myself love learning new forms, but if they are not forms of the 7 Star Mantis style, I will not pass it as such, but give credit to the particular mantis style it comes from, that simple.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

Qi Xing Tong Long
09-28-2000, 04:18 PM
Sifu Carl:

The complete system of 7 Star Mantis has only 82 forms in the records given to CCM and the same records given to Chiu Leun from CCM.

So, what matters here is this, you learn 82 forms from your Sifu, then you have completed the system that you are studying.

I'm not saying that you can't learn more, because knowledge is infinite. But, the whole style only requires 82 and if after 82, you still can't understand the mantis or be able to use it, do you really think, that 100 more forms are really going to make a difference? No, my friend and you know that.

You say that Chiu Leun study 22 years before LKW, and that maybe, because of that, there are the difference in the amount of forms. Sorry, to disagree with you on this, Sifu Carl. But, the 4 books that Chiu Leun and LKW received from CCM, have the same amount of forms, that were given to CCM by Lo Kwang Yu (82).

By all means, Chiu Leun has a great reputation as a great mantis master and teacher. What ever he wanted to add after the 82 sets in the 7 Star Mantis style is his choice. But, It should not be passed on as 7 Star, but rather give it credit to the mantis it belongs.

All mantis is good, but you know what, even Bung Bo, which is the form Wong Long is credited for creating, must be done the same way. No, matter what style of mantis, bung bo should look the same. Because thats the birth form to all the other mantis styles.

LKW Sifu just competed in Beijing last month, and competed in the hand forms with 10 other mantis masters from different styles. They all had to do Bung Bo. Lee Sifu won first place, he won not only for his speed, accuracy and technique executions, but also because he was the only one to do Bung Bo "Traditional".

After the fact he spoke with a mantis master, from Mui Fa and asked him, why he change the way Bung Bo was supposed to be done and also share some history with him. The Mui Fa master agree with Lee Sifu and told him that he would go back and start teaching it the way is supposed to be done.

They came to an agreement, that even dough their styles were different, the birth form of mantis should be done the same way by all mantis styles.

Sifu Carl, we plan a huge trip to HK next year, if you or any of your students are interested, please let me know.

By the way, thanks for those pictures you sent me. I will treasure them.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

BeiTangLang
09-28-2000, 04:26 PM
3, 18, 28, how many forms does it require to get a working knowledge of the art. I doubt even 80 are required; but I guess they are there & that is that for some branches. "So let it be written, So let it be done"-Y.Brenner, the 10 commandments
Good luck in your search for an answer!
-BTL

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

Yee Ho Society
09-28-2000, 05:22 PM
Sifu Ortiz....all this stuff flying abround has me greatly confuse and I hope that you can clear some matters for me.
1) You have stated that other 7 star sifus have added to the system and that is a no no. In the 80's, thru Panther Videos, was selling and continue to sell requirements up to black sash in 7 star mantis on video. Now I have, over time bought some of these videos and saw the rest of them from friends who have bought them also. This is my quandry, other than the Bung Bo form, none of the forms on those video are 7 STAR MANTIS, The picture in the ad has you doing a TIGER strike and I also have been lead to believe that you have taught these very forms as part of the 7 STAR MANTIS curriculum at your school.
2) A question I would ask of any sifu. You stated that you are certified to teach mantis. By whom? You are listed in the MANTIS CAVE as student of Bob Spoelstra, who studied under Chui Luen for a very short period of time. And currently your under Lee Kam Wing, who to my knowlegde has been to the states 4 times in the last 4-5 years.

Now understand Sifu, I am not trying to show anyone up or disrespect anyone, I have great respect for you and your fighting skills (have seen you knock more than a few guys silly) but with all the 'he said-she said' nonsense around here I just want to make a fair and intellegent choice on where to go to next.

I thank you in advance for your clarification.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

LawClansman
09-28-2000, 08:43 PM
Sifu Raul,

You have every right to disagree with me based on the information you have been told. But there are things about the clan that you simply are not privy to yet. I am one of the most senior non- Chinese members of this Clan. I know more than 82 forms. So at the very least I have, by your own standard, completed the 7 star system some time ago.

That being said, I can assure you that it does NOT take 82 forms to learn the complete system of mantis. Many movements are repeated and many techniques are variations. I have access to not only the LGY material, but I also have LKW's kuen po. I spent some 12 years in Asia mostly China and Hong Kong doing research. I have spent time with Chiu Chi Man and Wong Hon Fun.

In other words, If a student takes the sole word of his teacher, his teacher may be witholding informaton (common in Chinese Martial Arts) or his teacher may even be a phoney teaching bogus martial arts. I have seen it all. So even with my Sifu's great reputation, I did my own independent study.

LGY changed many things in his teachings. So to say that his is the "original" Bung Bo or anything of the like is only speculation. I have seen changes made during my time by CCM and LKW and Chiu Leun. LKW has stated he changed the 12 principles because he felt the essence of mantis was not fully realized. I have many films of LKW from years ago and I see differences then and now. He is known to most of us as a great innovator. That is to say, his changes have merit and are not trivial.

These are things that are printed record and film.

Nevertheless, the issue of how many forms there are VS how many forms necessary continues to be in debate. I have already have this thread some time ago. And I say now what I said then, it makes no difference. When you have learned enough forms so that you are able to use your system when fighting, you have enough.





Sifu Carl

cha kuen
09-28-2000, 09:44 PM
In my opinion you only need a few forms to get a good understanding of 7 star. You should know

Bong Bo
Essentials #1-3
Plum blossom hand
Plum Blossom fist
Falling Plum Blossom
Lan Jeet


The rest are extra training and also for teaching purposes. Students tend to think " more forms is better." If you only teach them 8 forms they may leave in search of "more forms." I know a student who has learned 18 hand forms and they all look the same. (quality wise) If he worked on only a few forms and concentrated on getting those better, he would be better off today.

This brings up something intersting. CCM lineage has 82 or 110 like Ortiz said. Is there a way to find out if these forms are true 7 star? Every hand form in 7 star mantis has a 2 man version.

Sifu Ortiz- In the 82 or so hand forms , do they have a 2 man version for each of them?

Also How many of the 82 hand forms have repeat movements that were already in the 8 hand forms I listed above?


One thing that can be good about more forms is the different combination. One form may have a right hook, triple pick, shuffle back left reverse punch, and shuffle forward right punch in horsestance. Essential #1 has all of these movements as well but the order is VERy different from any of the other 7 star forms. It's pretty interesting actually. To repeat, more forms can have different combinations which allow the practioner to have a greater understanding on how to deal with the opponent.

loki
09-28-2000, 09:47 PM
Sifu Ortiz,

Please know that I mean no disrespect toward you nor Sifu Lee kam Wing but I feel compelled to ask you this. You were present at the luncheon which was held last Sunday in chinatown. Sitting at the table directly across from you were Sifu Albright,
Sigung Chiu Luen to his right and next to Sigung, Sifu Lee kam Wing. Also present were Sifus Raymond Fogg, John Cheng, Raymond Nelson, Stephen Laurette, Derrick Wright and several others as well as some of their students, myself included.
My question is why didn't you bring this subject up then? Why have you chosen to bring it up on a "PSEUDO" roundtable when you were sitting at the real rountable...where it really counted?

It is sad that at a time when all the top people in the 7* mantis family from Chiu Chi Man's side are coming together working torwards unification topics like this one come around on a public forum and challenge the integrity of those that are working for the overall good of the family and the system.

Again, no disrespect intended towards you nor your Sifu but perhaps you could have gone about this a better more constructive way.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER

[This message was edited by loki on 09-29-00 at 02:52 PM.]

Tang Lang
09-29-2000, 12:58 AM
Hello List:

First let me say, that I'm not saying that you need to know all 82 forms, to know mantis. What I said was that the complete 7 Star Mantis style only has 82 forms.

I could care less if the person next door had 110 forms, that is not the point. No one is questioning the ligalities of you are doing to many forms there for you're not real 7 Star.

I'm sure that everyone here on this round table is intelligent enough to know exactly what I am trying to say.

Loki, you say that I should of brought this up at the Chinatown banquet, and I think you are right, but unfourtunately, it was not the appropriate time for it.

It would be more appropriate if only Sifu's were present at the moment. But, the reason I put it on the round table is because there are a lot of us that are from the CCM lineage and would have been a lot easier.

Again this was not to confuse anyone.

Yee Ho Society:

The videos that I had on panther productions is on variation forms of the Northern Mantis system, and at no time do you here me pass them as 7 Star Mantis. The idea was, so that anyone who was seriously interested inlearning the mantis style, then and only then would I share and teach them the 7 Star Mantis.

Sifu Spoelstra had trained with Master Chiu Leun for awhile, prior to the school closing and him retiring. Then he continue his studies with Sifu Stanley Moy.

All Sifu's are allowed to take what they have learned and re-arrange them in a manner to teach their students. It could be through drills, I'm sure every school has their own method of drilling their 7 Star mantis techniques.

Please list, understand that this is not to discredit anyone, simply to put some input on factual information.

If I have confused anyone please accept my apologies.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

p.s. Tanglang is my student, I was just answering on his page.

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[This message was edited by Tang Lang on 09-29-00 at 06:07 PM.]

LawClansman
09-29-2000, 02:55 AM
Cha Kuen,

There is no way to know what the "real" seven star mantis forms are. Many forms are borrowed from other styles. To say that Bung Bo is a "real" Seven Star form is only a way to look at it. If Wong Long created Bung Bo than Bung Bo is not seven star. It is mantis, period. Seven Star is not the original system. There are other systems that came out of the teachings of Wong Long. So who is to say who is closest to that?

There is no evidence to support the idea that Sing Sil learned directly from Wong Long. And we trace the begining of our line with him.

Essentials sets are not Seven Star specific. They are in Muy Fa Tong Long and others.Interesting enough the forms you listed are not really Seven Star sets for the most part comming from Muy Fa Tong Long. Wong Hon Fun in his writings has divided the style he taught into Seven Star, Plum Flower, Shiny Board.


Seven Star mantis did not begin with LGY. There are many students of Fan Yuk Tong that have passed down their own line and they have differences from the LGY line. What about Wong Wing San? He taught more people than Fan Yuk Tong.

The fact remains that China Seven Star is different from Hong Kong Seven Star. LGY taught in China first. Do they have the original Seven Star. I'm sure they think they do. So that Sifu Raul wishes to report "factual" information is nice. But there are not enough facts to do this. Nor do I feel he has done enough research to comfirm his claims. Nor do I believe that LKW in the short time Sifu Raul has been with him is willing to bear his soul to him.

So where are we? The only information you can expound on is what you are taught. You mentioned the two man sets for every form. Well, they really are Ling sets. Not true two person sets. And is it necessary to have one for every form? It is really all so opinionated. What is everyone looking for? The best? The most original? The most forms? The least forms? Don't look for an answer, look for a home. One that you can be happy with.

Some information about Seven Star as taught in Yan Tai presently will be comming out soon. I'm sure it will be another source of valuable information as well as the beginning of more controversy.

Like I always say, you can say just about anything, and you will be in agreement with some recognized authority that believes he or she knows what they are talking about.

Sifu Raul,

I think you were quite correct not to debate on Sunday. However, I would have rather you had emailed me first to get my position on the subject.
Sifu Carl


[This message was edited by LawClansman on 09-29-00 at 08:16 PM.]

loki
09-29-2000, 04:00 AM
Please accept my apologigies if anything I say appears to you as if I am out of line, after all I am merely a student. My intentions are not to get into a debate with a Sifu, especially one from the same family whom I have had the pleasure of meeting personally. In saying that , I will address several of the statements you have made and then maybe you can see why there may be some "confusion" here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Why so many forms ?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Why, is it then that some 7 star mantis families have added extra forms into the COMPLETE curriculum of the 7 star mantis system? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]So, again to my question, why 110 or 180? Why so many forms?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]I could care less if the person next door had 110 forms.

I see a contradiction here. My question, so why ask? Why even bring it up?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms to CCM and CCM taught 82 forms to CL.

How can you make a statement like that? How do you know what CCM taught CL? Not even LKW could know this. Remember CL is over 20 yrs LKW's senior.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]These words come from the ONLY ACTIVE Sifu under Chiu Chi Man SiGung.

Sifu Albright already disputed that by stating that Choy Wing Sing is still teaching and is a student of CCM. So at least one of your "facts" is definetly wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Finally, we have here in the United States the opportunity to train with a TRUE MASTER of the 7 star mantis style and he is willing to share it with everyone who is willing to learn the PROPER way of doing 7 star mantis.

So how is this going to happen since LKW only visits once a year? And are you saying then that up until now everyone's mantis is not proper?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Chiu Luen has a great reputation as a great master and teacher . Whatever he wanted to add after the 82 sets in the 7 star mantis style is his choice. But, it should not be passed on as 7 star.


Even if he created / added forms why can't it be considered 7 star? CL is one of the highest authorities if not the highest authority under CCM so he could do this.

You are basically saying that because LKY wrote down 82 forms that no future masters could add to the system? Are you saying that the 7 star cannon was closed at the writing of LKY's Kuen Po?

You state there are six essential forms you need to know to master mantis. So why bother teaching 82?

You also state that if you can't fight with 82 forms why bother learning 100. But we could also say if you can't fight with 6 why bother learning 10? Or 20? Or 30? Or 40? or...82?

And finally, you may be right in saying that it was not appropriate to ask at the banquet but I think everyone present would have enjoyed participating in such a discussion with both masters present at the same time.

I apologize again if I sound disrespectful but although you may not agree I do feel that certain subtle yet obvious jabs have been aimed at Sigung Chiu Luen , the nephew of master CCM who obviusly was in a position to learn more from his uncle than anyone else with the exception of CCM's own children and to question this man's legitimacy is in my eyes more disrespectful than anything I have said here.

Peace


NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Yee Ho Society
09-29-2000, 05:36 AM
Thank you Sifu Ortiz but one of my questions did go unanswered.
By whom are you certified to teach 7 STAR MANTIS and when were you.

My thanks in advance

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

Qi Xing Tong Long
09-30-2000, 12:41 AM
Loki

Well, obviously some people want to make this more then what it really is.

My question are legit and the reason for the questions is for research. If CL did create other forms or was taught other forms that were not taught, then it would be very interesting to know the reasons.

Do they teach something different, that as mantis practitioners we should be looking for?

There is no contradiction to me saying, that I could care less if my next door neighbor knew 110 forms.

I'm trying to find out some legit questions, to some very confusing questions and answers.

My goal is to master the mantis in every aspect possible, so if there is a reason, then I want to know, cause I would not want to be short changed of knowledge.

Actually Tsui Wing Sing is retired and I believe is his son Tommy Tsui teaching.

You are correct LKW only comes up to the US once a year, but he could come up more often. I never said that anyone else's mantis wasn't any good. But there is no other instructor under CCM actively teaching then LKW.

By having him here we can all participate and learn other things about our family and the history, etc.

I would never ever question the reputation of CL, he is not the one in question here. What any instructor wants to add to the system, is up to them. I can take and put together a hand or weapon set, from techniques learned from the sets. I may do this to work on a certain drills.

But, the only thing is that yea, my students will have it and their students, but it should be taught as concepts of 7* mantis. Yes, it's still 7* in theory.

The 6 sets are important to learn the inner essence of mantis, but the 82 will teach you all the other posibilities of applying your techniques.

I apologize if my questions sounded like I was attacking my friends and mantis family members, I can assure you those were not my intentions.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu


Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

loki
09-30-2000, 02:16 AM
Sifu Ortiz,

No harm, no foul. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I apologize for making it sound as if you had less than honorable intentions for putting up a thread like this. I realize these kinds of conversations can get heated sometimes and I aplpogize for contributing to that.

My Sifu always tells us to do our own research. To ask questions and to find out as much as we can from as many sources as possible. No one has the whole truth when it comes to topics like these and if we can at least put all the pieces together from the various sources available we can come that much closer to finding out what's what. The main thing is that we all keep training hard so that we can properly represent those that have come before us. We should not bring shame to those masters who dedicated their lives to preserve and pass down their knowledge of the art we all love so much today.

In short...it's all good! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

mantis7
09-30-2000, 07:56 AM
Maybe all the sifus present at the china town dinner should set a summit and compare notes.. This will help bring the mantis families closer together and help find out what is so called traditional and what is classical....

Also all disagreements and important history and info can be put forth in a open and honest way.. You will be able to cut through the nonsense no one will lose face and nothing could be misconstrude..

How about Mantis Summit 2001 /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ..... A three day event of roundtables.... Seminars...( for students and for closed door.. where sifus share unseen forms for diffrent families or forms from diffrent sect) and a big dinner...... An Idea like this might bring the diffrent families together..... Maybe it will open some eyes or at the least settle some questions.....:D


Victor /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I HAVE MET TWO MEN IN MY LIFE THAT SHOWED ME THE TRUE MEANING IN LIFE..
ONE SAID HE WAS IMMORTAL BUT HE DIED!
ONE SAID HE WAS INVINCABLE BUT HE WAS DEFEATED
SO IN THE END I LEARNED WE ALL DIE SO THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS HOW WE LIVE
WE ARE BORN THEN WE EXPERIENCE THEN WE DIE...
ALL ROADS START AT ONE POINT AND END AT ONE POINT
SO IF WE RUSH ALONG THAT ROAD TO QUICKLY WE MAY JUST MISS THE OFF RAMP LOL

olkat314
09-30-2000, 11:29 AM
Sifu Ortiz:

What might those 6 forms that are integral to the understanding the system be?

Thanks

Tak

Nathan
10-01-2000, 12:54 AM
Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association

Good day to all:
My name is Nathan. I am Carl Albright's classmate under Chiu Luen. As some of you know I have studied under Lee Kam Wing, Sifu Su, and others in Hong Kong. I have been to Hong Kong more than five times for at least 2 months each time. My classmates and I have quietly researching and studying system for twenty years, mostly leaving teaching to others. I am just one of the managers of the Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association, like Carl Albright.

Why so many forms?

1. The amount of forms directly relates to the many styles that make up the 7 star mantis system,
( please refer to mantis7 postings on the mantis poem and the 18 systems that it is compose of)

2. Each form grouping like the black tiger or white ape forms have their own character.

===In some Black tiger forms one will finds it is required to turn and fight in four directions with particular movements in some forms. Also in black tiger forms one will find more fist strikes than palms.

===In plum blossom form hand forms, the 7 star stance is used with more, with short range backfist or palms than found in other forms. In the plum blossom kick forms one will find kicks combinations not OFTEN found in other forms. Because of these differences the energy and breath control is done differently in each form division.

2. Some advanced forms have very little fist strikes and are mostly composed of palm srtike with first done with some sort aou lou hand movement to line up the mantis hand strike.

3. They advances forms are for those who need to fight more advanced opponents of different styles, and more amount of them.

4. Some advanced forms use internal energy or have more eagle claw or other styles mixed into the movements with mantis.

5. Some advances forms relate to health and sickness, like the chi gung and nei gung forms

HISTORY NOTE: I talk to Chiu Luen last week. He has never said "THAT ALL OF HIS FORMS WERE LEARNED FROM CHIU CHI MAN". Some one the public domian assumed that statement. He students have said he knows 110 forms. Now, Chiu Luen does know more than 80 whatever mantis forms. Many of the them are not from Chiu Chi Man sect of 7 Star Mantis. Chiu Luen learned Northern Mantis long before he was in Hong Kong, as learned more after studying with Chiu Chi Man. His alignment with Chiu Chi Man is a matter of family ties more than any thing else. Chiu Chi Man is not his uncle, that was a miss understanding of Chinese to English language, they are from the same family village. Chiu Chi Man helped our sifu when he first came to Hong Kong. Chiu Chi Man, Chui Luen and Lee Kam Wing are all good friends and martial arts brother. I know for a fact that they wish we American would get over ourselfs and just practice.

SOME of our advanced forms come from the following sources:

1. 7 Star Mantis as it is practiced at particular Buddhist temple (not Sil-Lum) in the New Territories in Hong Kong, who are originally from a Northern part of China. Chiu Luen studied with these monks long before knowing Chiu Chi Man and after studying with him. These monk do exist and we have had contact with them. They are not martial monks, just Buddhist monks that happen to know Seven Star because they are from the north. From what I understand they practice for health and not for competition as some Sil-lum monks practice these days.

2. Some forms are from another Mantis masters he studied with some ago.

3. I have spent some time and energy researching these advanced forms. They are northern mantis forms, but you will find them more Sil-lum Seven Mantis (not the Hong Kong stuff), Great Ultimate Mantis, and some Taoism systems of martial arts.

I wish I could say more but I would need to get permission to do so.

Number of Forms:
When I was with Lee Kam Wing a few times back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He said, there were only some 30 some hand forms, back then. I base this on what we told me, and his Germany students at the time. That was before, Chiu Chi Man and Chiu Luen taught his more forms later. This whole discussion of the reason for how many forms can be answer by practicing and research the forms one already has and asking one self, what is missing? Then answer this question by adding elements that will enable one to fight opponents from different styles and counter their particular methods. Please remember the system is composed of different styles in the first place.

As far as written sources of the system, no published book, out of Hong Kong gives all the forms. There are only three forms that were first created in mantis. Most forms of mantis are a blend of these forms and whatever a particular master knew at the time of their study or what ever they felt they needed to exist in their environment. Some felt mantis need more fight techniques, other felt it needed more medical and philosophical elements.

Move over, most closed door text on the system talk more about poems as related to "Journey to the West", medical references, and chi gung.


NOTICE: Chiu Luen students and their students, please contact Carl or myself before getting involved in such discussions in the future. We may have things for you to do that would be a better use of your time.

To all others in the Seven Star Mantis community we of the Chiu Luen Sect enjoy good relationships with our martial arts family at large. We would like to just say the following we teach what we know and are willing to learn from others. We hold ethics and community citizenship above any martial skill. We also reframe from commenting on the value of another systems or sects, we only request is that others do the same.

In the past some have chosen to ask questions about our techniques and the history of the sect. We have always able be counter such questions with proof of who we are and what we do without taking offense. We only really counter such comments by others because we feel our students should not feel they have to. Please direct questions about our sect directly to us in future. Sometimes, good question are important in the learning process for both parties

Our mission, is not to create street fighters or movie stars, we leave that to others. We are here to preserve of sect’s knowledge and help create maintain a good martial arts community within our sect, but also be good citizens.

Nathan
Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association
nathan@digitalavatar.org

LawClansman
10-01-2000, 03:55 AM
Ahhh shucks Nathan, and I was trying so hard to hold back that one. I might add that we are planning a trip to China for more research.


What Sifu Nathan has said is true. At this time, there is only harmony with the Chiu Leun students. We get along great and respect each other as brothers should.

Sifu Carl

Nathan
10-01-2000, 08:01 AM
test

Yee Ho Society
10-02-2000, 02:36 PM
Why is it that when you ask a simple and uncomplicated question, it is like pulling teeth when it comes to getting an answer?
Mr Ortiz, I again ask, (for the 3rd time) you stated that you are a certified to teach 7 Star Mantis,
1)When where you certified?
2)By whom?

Not trying to be a pain about it but I am researching these matters to ultimatly decided what school to join.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

BeiTangLang
10-02-2000, 03:26 PM
There are other Tang Lang instructors in NY besides sifus Ortiz & Albright. Sifu Chuy is there as well.
There are links to all of their sites at http://www.authentickungfu.com
Good luck in your search & research.
-BTL

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

Yee Ho Society
10-02-2000, 05:46 PM
Again thanks for the info, I will be attempting to speak with the other sifus in turn.
Justy I saw Mr Ortiz first and just going on convience.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

Qi Xing Tong Long
10-02-2000, 10:54 PM
YHS:

Just because I didn't answer your question on a timely manner, no reason to get mad. I try to get on KFO when ever I get a chance.

Sifu Bob Spoelstra
1989
Sifu Ken Keeler
1985

If I spend to much time online, then I can't teach.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

Young Mantis
10-04-2000, 09:57 PM
Sifu Ortiz:

These names and dates that you have given for your instructors have me a bit confused. I was under the impression that you had studied with Sifu Chiu Luen himself. But you state that you were certified to teach Seven Star Praying Mantis by Bob Spoelstra and Kenneth Keeler.

I have been a student with Sifu Tony Chuy since 1985 and have seen many people come and go in our school. I remember Bob Spoelstra came to study with my sifu in the summer of 1986 when our school was at 1117 6th Avenue, 3rd floor. I remember introducing myself to him on his first day and showed him to the changing room. I also remember Kenneth Keeler came to study with my sifu sometime in late 1988 when our school was located at 58 W. 31st St, 4th floor. Sifu introduced him to me and I remember sifu was teaching him the form Daw Ghong and helping him with corrections in Bung Bo.

How could have Sifu Kenneth Keeler certify you in 1985 to teach Seven Star Praying Mantis? Could the dates you have given be mistaken?

YM

Qi Xing Tong Long
10-05-2000, 08:05 PM
YM:

First let me say, please do not try to discredit me or my Sifu's. I operate a successful and traditional school. I also produce some of the best mantis students around. My reputation speaks for itself.

I remember when both of my Sifu's visited Sifu Chuy. Their main reason for the visit and the class was to check the differences in our forms to yours.

Sometimes is better not to introduce yourself as a Sifu, cause of the different attitude people take. This way they can see the truth behind the Sifu.

There is more to the story behind that visit, which you forgot to mention. I myself care not to talk about it and I don't think is anybody's business either. So, I suggest that if you would like to elaborate on this further, please do so via private e-mail.

Thank in advance

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[This message was edited by Qi Xing Tong Long on 10-06-00 at 01:12 PM.]

Young Mantis
10-06-2000, 02:23 AM
Sifu Ortiz,

I did not mean to upset or discredit you or your school. I simply wanted to clarify the information that Yee Ho Society had requested. The dates you gave seemed odd to me because I remember clearly seeing them at our school and I thought I would ask for clarification. After all, isn’t that the premise of this thread? As you state, “this is not to discredit anyone, simply to put some input on factual information”. I did not mean to offend you or anyone else.

If you do not wish to talk about why Sifu Bob Spoelstra and Sifu Kenneth Keeler came to study at our school with my sifu, Tony Chuy in those years, I really don’t care and we can end it here.

By the way, congratulations to you on finding a genuine sifu.

YM

Papieboni
10-06-2000, 06:43 AM
Although I think testing and review of student material is important in order to ensure there is a standard of practice and procedure among martial artists and styles, I think sometime we get caught up in it too much where it is used extremely for commercial purposes and to claim lineage for validation.

I know individuals that have learned from prominent sifu's in praying mantis and in kung fu in general that were CERTIFIED instructors who couldn't fight at all or didn't have a good understanding of their own style.

I know people that went from sifu to sifu and didn't get CERTIFIED and could hook you up real good in a fight with principles and theories that you were suppose to know.

Hell, I've trained under individuals in my travels due to military assignmnts that claimed to be instructors and it was all good until I sparred or fought with them and realized I was better than them and take there system and interpret and fight with it better than they did.(no conceit intended.)

Trying to consistently discredit Sifu's on a public forum and question their lineage and the knowledge they hold from a student to a sifu, in my opinion is very disrepectful and it shows the true character and attitude of that student, by the way I would never teach such a student no matter how much they offered to pay.

It is something that rips at my gut.

In a previous school where I trained and taught as a assistant instructor we often had individuals to come in talk a lot of crap, doubt the system and the school and we solved in a most traditional fashion as we could.

We would invite them to class and offer them to participate and would make the class the most traditionally difficult class we could and watch as they hyperventilated from the work out and when they did recover, we offered them to spar friendly with one of the seniors and watch as they were kicked, punched and taken down through out the kwoon.

They had a different outlook about the instructor team and the system.

Magnus750
10-07-2000, 08:57 PM
82 forms is ridiculous. You need to be able to perform Jin patterns correctly, and to rotate the hips and shift the weight to generate power. All this meaningless "flowering hands and embroidered legs" will get you unglamorously grounded and pounded against any real opponent. Lineage is good, but ultimately it is the quality of power generated, and NOT the quantity of forms that one knows, that will enable you to hit with power and authority and to throw your opponents to the ground by using joint center mass. If the Chinese MA community continues to banter over forms and meaningless arm waving, it will die out. Look around you, people are laughing. They are seeing events like the UFC in which bonehead wrestlers are pounding the once celebrated point sparrers. If you don't care, then fine, but realize that the number of forms you know means nothing unless you are using them as combinations of Jin patterns. I learned 3 forms, Bong Bo, Sup Pa Sao, and Daw Gao. From these, my instructor isolated 8 exercises (biomechanical) that illustrated the different ways for generating power. Eventually, we all but stopped using the forms, and focused entirely on applying the biomechanics to hitting hard, sparring, and boxing. He explained the forms "collecting" trap and why it is unnecessary to memorize what is effectively a dance, when the most important movements are understood and all efficient movement is used. 82 forms... HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! I don't know of ANYONE who would spend years of their life learning that many forms. Forms don't make you any good at fighting on their own. There is no "automatic" value in forms. You have to make the connection, and there is more than enough essence in ONE form, i.e., Bong Bo, to learn more than ONE type of Jin, i.e., crossing Jin (rotational) and sinking Jin. As far as Raul Ortiz goes, I have seen him on a tape one time, and his movements showed a lack of understanding, like he was another TKD point sparring/form collector anyway. Doesn't ANYONE train for reality here?
Since the Warring States, systematic martial science has undergone more than 2000 years of evolution. Its purpose however remains unchanged - to fulfill the need to effectively defend oneself and one's country ½Ã ¤v ½Ã °ê. No matter how advanced the weapons of Man become, ultimately he still needs his most basic weapon - mind and body.

True styles of martial science:

1) Follow clear lineage

2) Are simple to learn but very difficult to master

3) Have less than 10 basic techniques/concepts (Jin patterns/methods for generating power that apply to all actual "techniques")

4) Emphasize on the perfection of these basic techniques (not a meaningless entourage of 82+ "forms")

5) Emphasize on very low stances in training (but light stances in actual fighting)

6) Emphasize on deep abdominal breathing

7) Uses the entire body as a weapon - not just hands and feet

8) Have almost no high kicking techniques.

9) Looks soft on the outside but is hard within, or vice versa

10) Possess of both linear and circular techniques

11) Draws its power from the Earth itself

12) Transforms attack and defense into ONE

Less than 10 basic techniques/concepts (concepts actually, from which all techniques are derived)!

Can someone here explain why you would want to learn 82+ forms anyway?

To me, 82+ forms is waaaaaaaaaaay too many to be of any practical value beyond the first three or four.

Magnus750
10-07-2000, 09:47 PM
Regarding that last statement, anyone can defeat a pre-exhausted opponent easily. Igor Vovchanchin beat two of the best regarded grapplers in the Pride Grand Prix, yet was too exhausted to beat Coleman, who he is surely capable of beating. It is disgraceful that you would allow a challenger to spar only after you had exhausted him with previous calisthenics. If you truly wanted an honest fight, you would allow him to spar first, and then have the class. This is part of the reputation problem among so-called "traditionalist" schools that lack the traditional values of the Martial art mindset; FUNCTION OVER ALL ELSE. It must honestly work in an honest situation, like a mechanism, every time. Otherwise, it is just more mystical voodoo trickery. Not meant as a personal insult, but your sparring session doesn't prove a thing except that your senior student could beat up a pre-exhausted opponent.

Papieboni
10-07-2000, 10:49 PM
Magnum,

Maybe you should go back and read my statement and then reply correctly, i mean READ it and then provide your response to my last statement. It wasn't to make the poor guy tired before sparring with him to get the advantage through calistethics and warm ups and then spar with him. It was to teach proper etiquette and respect for others. Its easy to talk some one down over the internet as WORD and other individuls with screen names and unknown identities has done to Master Lee Kam Wing, Sifu Ortiz and other Sifus and students on this forum.

Prove your statements by visiting their schools and see what they have to offer first. It may or may not be your cup of tea but be careful not to respond hastily and negatively to how others do things. If what they do is working and is proved and tried in the fire then who am I or you or anyone else to question their way.

You spent a long time blabbling on about a lot of stuff earlier you could have reviewed to or three sets or two or three sparring matches with some one or practiced on your stances.

Magnus750
10-07-2000, 11:06 PM
I apologize if I was hasty in judging your actions, but if you wanted to teach him a lesson, it would have been better done in an honest contest. That way the results are objective. Also, you should refrain from boasting. That makes him feel like more dirt for having questioned your integrity in the first place - and who knows, you might gain a pupil.
As far as practicing goes, I have all day to practice, and I usually do so in the mornings. Today I am getting over a sinus infection, and I am not working out this evening. I will resume on Monday, God willing. The things that I posted about in the other thread are true. No one cares how many forms a particular clan knows. What matters is how they can use their martial art in reality. Maybe I am the only one on here who cares about Chinese MA in the NHB world, but it just bothers me that the public holds such a misconception here. Lee Kam Wing has never been questioned by me. I saw Raul Ortiz with my own eyes and that is why I see him as a point sparrer who would get killed in NHB. I also had read his threatening and obscene response to "word" on that other post, and it seems that a lot of people are questioning his credentials. If he is lying, then he is just another **** like Ashida Kim the "ninja" LOL!
As far as hiding, I provided much more information on my profile than others did, along with my e-mail address (not that anyone on here would ever actually come "looking for me" LOL). Real Martial Science is hard to find these days, but point sparring form collectors are a dime a dozen. It is they who get their asses kicked by the fat guy at the bar, and give the real martial arts a bad name.
Again, if you do not care about the reality fighting community, then I guess you are where you want to be. But seriously, I would like to hear from at least one person who knows something of the real Chinese tradition, and who spars without points and includes some ground fighting as well.

LawClansman
10-07-2000, 11:50 PM
Magnus,

Read my last post on the "wong Hon Fun kicks" thread.

I live TOTALLY in the real world. And I give credit to my forms knowledge for my past success. I fought NHB and toughman contests waaay before ultimate fighting and the like. I got paid little or nothing (except some side bets). I even fought NHB weapons. That is the reason I got out of the point competion. Too much room for hit and run. In NHB, the guy on the ground loss and the guy standing over him won. I was finishing up my fighting career in 1985.

I am not disputing what you say about the value of jing training. Nor am I disputing really most of what you say. WE are in agreement. There is much fantasy in the martial art world. But be that as it may, the martial arts is an art form and subject to interpretation. So you cannot expect everyone to think like you. If you don't want to spend time learning forms that is your choice. Fine.

But you don't need ANY forms to fight, even the small number you quoted. I know a lot of street fighters that don't know forms that are more than competent. The fact that you learned some forms shows that you at some level perceive the value of them. Now its just a question of where do you want to stop. 3 forms, 10 forms, 100 forms.

It's strictly an INDIVIDUAL choice. So don't knock forms collectors. You are one yourself but on a smaller scale. Who knows maybe one day you may even want to learn another form or two. When I was your age, I was in the service. I to felt that forms were a waste of time. I mean who has time to do forms in the middle of a war (Nam). But later I changed my perspective.

Hey, I don't see the value in collecting toys or coins that for the most part will only be worth a few bucks more in 20 years. But people do it all the time. I do have one baseball card though
Sifu Car

[This message was edited by LawClansman on 10-08-00 at 05:02 PM.]

Magnus750
10-07-2000, 11:57 PM
But my point about the form collector is that 82 forms is ridiculous. If it is like collecting stamps and such, then fine, but there needs to be a distinction between Martial Science Fighters, and the point sparring form collectors. I just don't like the image that the MMA community has of the Chinese MA. They think that it is all sport "wu shu", and the Jin concepts are the real heart of Chinese Boxing, not some gay aerial kicks.

Thanks for the info, where did you fight NHB? It would be nice to have an example of a Chinese MA fighter who won before the modern SEG tape scam campaign started. Could you post some of your exploits? Also, a few forms are good to teach body mechanics and how to issue Jin; just as shadowboxing is good for the boxer. However, a boxer who just shadowboxes is not really a boxer. I guess I could sum it up as "All good boxers practice shadowboxing as a part of the whole of their training programs; however, not everyone who shadowboxes is a boxer, however good they may look while shadowboxing."
What about that Joel Sutton guy? He was mentioned in one of the UFC's but then you never get to see him on the tape LOL what actually happened that fight? On the SEG page he is listed as having won. How did he do?

LawClansman
10-08-2000, 12:08 AM
Magnus,

Feel free to email me for info about some fights. As far as the current state of affairs in NHB, well when there is money in it.........

sevenstarmantis@hotmail.com

Sifu Carl