VT antigrappling

[bennyvt]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?
You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling. I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style, I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.
When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground. Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.
I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT. The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.
I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?

[Frost]

Stop being sensible and thinking things through logically, that kind of behaviour has no place on this forum :o)

On the whole what wing chun brings to the table is the opposite of anti grappling: It trains close in strikes, has no real level change or lateral movement at long range, and doesn’t generate enough power in its strikes to put a grappler off. I also think any style that stresses close quarter fighting (like in a phone booth) uses upright stances and has a limited if non existent repertoire of throws and takedowns will have a really hard time coming up with anything like a decent anti grappling game.

Some of the TWC stuff I have seen would be useful in anti grappling, longer range strikes, lateral footwork etc.

There is anti grappling stuff out there but for the most part it covers long range straight power punches which makes the opponent hesitate in coming in range to grapple, the ability to level change and use fast lateral movement to upset and beat the opponent, and long range hooks and uppercuts that work with the lateral movement does this sound like wing chun to anyone? Once in grappling range it covers keeping the elbows tight to defend against the underhooks, level changes to defend against the leg attacks forming a bridge against the opponents neck and moving laterally away…again does this sound like wing chun.?

And the above only really works 50% of the time, you are right to be able to really defend against a good grappler you need to be trained in grappling.

But as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and whilst you don’t need to become a BJJ brown belt its not simply a case of learning to sprawl, bridge and how to get up and bang you are done.

You need to spend months in not years learning to defend the clinch and the shot, how to read your opponents movements and how to deal with different pressures on the ground and defend different positions and submissions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is there "anti grappling"?
yes, by definition it is what one does to AVOID ( not counter) grappling.
Be it running away, running over the grappler with a car, throwing a chair at him or KOing him BEFORE grappling happens.
ONCE contact has been made then there is no anti-grappling, just grappling or grappling and striking intermixed.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ using WC to strike on the ground. just as there are very specific things you have to do for grappling on the ground that are completely different from standup, there are specific things you have to do for striking on the ground. Striking on the ground has a whole different set of principles, tactics and biomechanics.

Trying to strike on the ground with WC is no different than trying to use WC to grapple on the ground.

[t_niehoff]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?


No.



You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling.


Yet, we never see them actually use it against decent grapplers, do we?



I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style,


It's not.

Look what you just said above -- that you used to think "like that"? Why did you think "like that" in the first place? Because you were told it by someone who didn't know better and because you wanted to believe it. And because you didn't look at the evidence (the lack of anyone who could use their "antigrappling" in grappling with decently skilled grapplers) and actually earn some experience (grappling) yourself BEFORE arriving at a conclusion.

Now you say WCK is the best stand-up style -- yet again falling into the same traps.



I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.


WCK is striking and grappling combined.



When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground.


If you are referring to ground-n-pound, there are much more effective ways to strike (mechanics, etc.) on the ground than with WCK mechanics. WCK is suited for attached, standing striking.



Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.


"VT ideas"? WTF are they?

If you have "improved" your ground game by using "VT ideas" then you can bet your ground training sucked.



I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT. The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.
I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?

If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, go train with very good, proven ground fighters. You might be surprised to find that they developed high level skills, including world-class skills, without needing "VT ideas".

[Wayfaring]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?

Well I think you can develop your bridge in a way that makes it harder to clinch and get taken down. I think someone could develop proficiency that with unlimited space they'd be hard to take down. The problem IMO comes in when you don't have unlmited space. There's overwhelming evidence showing people can't stay out of a clinch against a cage. If you're in a clinch, then your anti-grappling has not worked. If you're not perfect, you're on the ground. Then what do you do? Anti-wrestling? Anti-BJJ? Give up?



You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling. I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. While I still think VT is the best standup style, I think that VT can be used to stay out of a grappling situation (not all the time hence the ground training) once in a really close grappling in stand up or all ground stuff there is no real antigrappling. Its really only better grappling.

In a clinch or on the ground other skillsets and principles predominate.


When I started with my friend it was more to use the VT on the ground. While all striking I do on the ground is VT I don't do VT on the ground. Without the training in position control, transitions, submission defence and sweeps/escapes etc the VT would be useless. Although I have found that moves can be imnproved by using VT ideas it is just changing the grappling not VT antigrappling.

There are core fundmentals that need to be developed for the ground game, and core skills. If you do the work to develop these, then many things will work for strategies and philosophies. If you don't then you are SOL regardless of what strategy you use.


I was talking about it with someone and I said it was like my own version of Biu Jee, as in its what I do when I screw up the VT.

While it is true one of the core concepts of Biu Jee is to recover your space when things go wrong, the idea that the ground game is that to me sounds a little wacky.


The guy I train ground stuff with has a fellow student that fights and teaches in japan. He was interested in the VT as he had fought a vt guy in a MMA fight. The VT guy had him in the stand up and he said that he couldn't get close enough. He did a sliding leg pick (he slide in between his legs and pulled him down) he didn't get behind him to get it properly so he just pulled him down onto top of himself. The VT guy just started punching and Simon swept him and finished him in a neck lynch (one arm full nelson) but had his hand on his knee instead of the ground. So the guy was stuck sideways while he pounded him out.
Long story short Simon said he screwed it but as the guy was just trying to strike he had no base so he got flipped and smashed. So if the guy had even learnt a little wrestling or anything that teaches positional control he would have smashed simon.

Well there you go. Missing a core ground fundamental skill - base - and all the VT skill in the world doesn't help.


I was talking to a guy the other day and he was asking about the ground but didn't want to learn how to grapple, I said atleast if you do a bit of wrestling and learn how to control someone on the ground it will make it massively safer and allow you to use your VT to strike.
So what do you guys think?
I think the guy you were talking to was kind of a wanker. The ground game is fun, a workout, a chess match, and every bit as addicting as striking. Take a little time out to work it in and get some good instruction.

[bennyvt]

I meant the biu jee as an idea as biu jee is what to do when the VT stuffs up and how to get back to what you want. I don't in anyway mean that it is VT. I agree with the ground being fun. When I first started I just wanted to learn how to get out and up but now I really like the whole ground game.
Not sure if I agree that the striking on the ground can't be done with VT. I find it means I don't over reach or twist stopping being swept, my elbow is in the help aid in any escapes from armbars etc (actually in shoot fighting you keep the elbow in when punching for those reasons), I have control and other reasons. All this can't be done without a good base and position as you would know.
Although I have found most times that I thought I was making it better by using my VT I was actually just doing it the way it should be done, for example when trying to pry the guys hands apart I would shoot my hand through like in a strike. Later I wasn't doing it and my mate told me to do exactly that. But I did find I could improve on the traingle choke. I found if you use your elbow on the arm around his head you can control his arm and keep it across his body and I could use my other arm to hook the leg so he can't stand up and drop me.

[Graham H]

I meant the biu jee as an idea as biu jee is what to do when the VT stuffs up and how to get back to what you want. I don't in anyway mean that it is VT. I agree with the ground being fun. When I first started I just wanted to learn how to get out and up but now I really like the whole ground game.
Not sure if I agree that the striking on the ground can't be done with VT. I find it means I don't over reach or twist stopping being swept, my elbow is in the help aid in any escapes from armbars etc (actually in shoot fighting you keep the elbow in when punching for those reasons), I have control and other reasons. All this can't be done without a good base and position as you would know.
Although I have found most times that I thought I was making it better by using my VT I was actually just doing it the way it should be done, for example when trying to pry the guys hands apart I would shoot my hand through like in a strike. Later I wasn't doing it and my mate told me to do exactly that. But I did find I could improve on the traingle choke. I found if you use your elbow on the arm around his head you can control his arm and keep it across his body and I could use my other arm to hook the leg so he can't stand up and drop me.

Bil Jee is what to do when VT stuffs up???? Bil Jee is VT. Its part of the whole. Getting back to what you want???? You mean regaining control of the center??? This idea is everywhere in VT. Not just BJ. BJ teaches us to think logically and reduce the risk of serious injury. It teaches us about situations where our normal direct attacking way has been comprimised and ultimately if the s**t hits the fan to try and escape.

Over analysing the ins and outs of a street fight is pointless. There are too many possibilites to consider. We train to make VT in our blood so we behave according to simple concepts. In this way we can react quickly without much thought.

At the end of the day if one were to get in a fight with a grappler or a big thug that can wrestle then maybe its your day to lose.

VT teaches us how to survive and take advantage of chances. If we are taken to the ground then we already have a problem. Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

GH

[CFT]

Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

[Dragonzbane76]

Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

LOLZZ

this goes to show the stupidity that is imbred into the traditional community. EVERYTHING is solved with the good old "deadly" eye gouge and groin attack. Realization doesn't come quick for sure.

Do people not realize that grappling either wrestling/greco Judo/BJJ is about control. Full control and domination. You think in the heat of a fight a strike to the groin is going to "fell" a guy pumped on adrenaline?

These kinds of comments go to propel that some people have no idea when it comes to ground fighting, the mechanics and the timing, positioning, defenses, etc. The ignorance is amazing.

[Frost]

LOLZZ

this goes to show the stupidity that is imbred into the traditional community. EVERYTHING is solved with the good old "deadly" eye gouge and groin attack. Realization doesn't come quick for sure.

Do people not realize that grappling either wrestling/greco Judo/BJJ is about control. Full control and domination. You think in the heat of a fight a strike to the groin is going to "fell" a guy pumped on adrenaline?

These kinds of comments go to propel that some people have no idea when it comes to ground fighting, the mechanics and the timing, positioning, defenses, etc. The ignorance is amazing.

i've now stopped training stand up, if i get into a fight with a wing chun guy standing I will just gouge, groin pinch and hit him with the nearest chair :)

[t_niehoff]

Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

ROFLOL! Awesome.

[CFT]

^^
If you're going to use "deadly techniques" then you're going to need some kind of conditioning regime and "simulator/substitute" to make sure you've got the "power" to actually do some damage (fan gan chor gwut (separating tendon, breaking bone)). But you're never going to really do it on a training partner are you? It's not like getting the submission in BJJ, etc.

Also, if you get caught out by a wrestler/grappler, you're probably not going to be in a position to gouge the eyes or attack the groin. Like DB67 says, the control is with the grappler.

[Graham H]

Graham, how do you train these deadly techniques? Do your poor blind castrated training partners come back for more?

Ha!! You should be on stage not in Kung Fu.....pmsl!!!!

Can you post some more or even more of your views on Vt because they are equally as entertaining!!! :D

GH

[CFT]

So how do you know your eye gouging and groin attacks work? Truthfully and honestly. Do you practice it with the same rigour as your "regular" VT?

[Graham H]

So how do you know your eye gouging and groin attacks work? Truthfully and honestly. Do you practice it with the same rigour as your "regular" VT?

Jesus Christ!!!! its simple.....your eyes, groin or throat are within reach i stab whatever I can into them. Thats if my first attack is not successful or if i have been taken to floor.....if that is not possible then I have just lost :mad:

Trouble with you guys is that you need it to be in your hong kong book of kong fu otherwise it dont work........this idea is everywhere in WSLVT......do what it takes in order to survive!!!


GH

[Wayfaring]

At the end of the day if one were to get in a fight with a grappler or a big thug that can wrestle then maybe its your day to lose.


Or you could .....gasp...... cross train.

[t_niehoff]

Jesus Christ!!!! its simple.....your eyes, groin or throat are within reach i stab whatever I can into them. Thats if my first attack is not successful or if i have been taken to floor.....if that is not possible then I have just lost :mad:

Trouble with you guys is that you need it to be in your hong kong book of kong fu otherwise it dont work........this idea is everywhere in WSLVT......do what it takes in order to survive!!!


GH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA06Z5e1ZFc&feature=related

[CFT]

its simple.....your eyes, groin or throat are within reach i stab whatever I can into them. Thats if my first attack is not successful or if i have been taken to floor.....if that is not possible then I have just lost :mad:No, you still haven't answered the question.

1) How do you know it works? Have you done it for yourself?
2) How do you train it?

If I asked you how you train your "knockout" power in stand up and how you deliver it to a resisting opponent you would not be so "meh-whatever".

Your assumptions fail at the 1st sentence - that those targets are within reach. What if they are not? What is your plan? In stand up you have the practice from Chum Kiu to chase your opponents down. Why do you not have an equivalent in other arenas? Maybe you have but choose not to post it.

[Knifefighter]

Bil Jee is what to do when VT stuffs up???? Bil Jee is VT. Its part of the whole. Getting back to what you want???? You mean regaining control of the center??? This idea is everywhere in VT. Not just BJ. BJ teaches us to think logically and reduce the risk of serious injury. It teaches us about situations where our normal direct attacking way has been comprimised and ultimately if the s**t hits the fan to try and escape.

Over analysing the ins and outs of a street fight is pointless. There are too many possibilites to consider. We train to make VT in our blood so we behave according to simple concepts. In this way we can react quickly without much thought.

At the end of the day if one were to get in a fight with a grappler or a big thug that can wrestle then maybe its your day to lose.

VT teaches us how to survive and take advantage of chances. If we are taken to the ground then we already have a problem. Looking to fight out way out by using MMA is stupid. We must gouge the eyes, attack the groin and use anything at hand to render the other guy unable to continue.

GH


Another sucker sold a bill of goods by a clueless instructor.

[SAAMAG]

This is how Paul Vunak trains it

eating raw meat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

[t_niehoff]

This is how Paul Vunak trains it

eating raw meat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Oh my Lord!

If you have the skills to mount your opponent and maintain it (which only comes from loads of rolling with good people), why in the world would you want to bite your opponent -- and risk being bitten in return? Why not actually use the advantage the mount gives you?

[Frost]

Jesus Christ!!!! its simple.....your eyes, groin or throat are within reach i stab whatever I can into them. Thats if my first attack is not successful or if i have been taken to floor.....if that is not possible then I have just lost :mad:

Trouble with you guys is that you need it to be in your hong kong book of kong fu otherwise it dont work........this idea is everywhere in WSLVT......do what it takes in order to survive!!!


GH

no they are not, actually go and play with a grappler see how often his eyes throat or groin are within reach, the answer might surprise you

[Dragonzbane76]

again can I not expreesssssss..... grappler has control. CONTROL AGAIN CONTROL......................DAM...

grappling = name of the game CONTROL

do you realize that there are positions that it's almost impossible to grab at the junk or gouge eyes from???

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/kungfukangaroo/1Alana_De_La_Garza_400.jpg

[Wayfaring]

This is how Paul Vunak trains it

eating raw meat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Checked out that one and the choke defence one. He actually teaches them pretty well with basic ground concept understanding. Biting/gouging is as I've heard described as the jab/cross of street self defence. So I see the relevance from the self defense perspective.

For this particular one - I don't like his arm around the head from mount to set up the bite. It takes a higher level of skill to maintain that position and not get rolled. Plus - somebody fighting is not going to just let you get your arm around their neck like that without fighting it off.

[Knifefighter]

Checked out that one and the choke defence one. He actually teaches them pretty well with basic ground concept understanding. Biting/gouging is as I've heard described as the jab/cross of street self defence. So I see the relevance from the self defense perspective.

For this particular one - I don't like his arm around the head from mount to set up the bite. It takes a higher level of skill to maintain that position and not get rolled. Plus - somebody fighting is not going to just let you get your arm around their neck like that without fighting it off.

Ummm... you don't see the basic problem with what he is showing there?

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/kungfukangaroo/1Alana_De_La_Garza_400.jpg

I agree, 100%

http://cdn.mademan.com/chickipedia/images/1/12/Alana_de_la_garza_maxim_12_SUcIhlS_257.jpg

[Wayfaring]

Ummm... you don't see the basic problem with what he is showing there?

Well, I have no idea from mount why you would want to go to low mount, grapevine, and wrap someone up to bite them when basically you are forfeiting the main advantages of that position which are leverage and gravity. Why not get to high mount and beat the crap out of someone as opposed to placing yourself down close where they could bite too, or sweep you.

I mean, with Vunak there are a few other basic problems, but that's the most glaring that comes to mind.

Did you watch his biting as a defense to the RNC? That seemed a little more realistic.

[t_niehoff]

Did you watch his biting as a defense to the RNC? That seemed a little more realistic.

No, that's training to fail. Those sorts of things only waste time, distract you from what you should really be doing (working for a high percentage escape), and give you a completely wrong focus.

[Knifefighter]

Well, I have no idea from mount why you would want to go to low mount, grapevine, and wrap someone up to bite them when basically you are forfeiting the main advantages of that position which are leverage and gravity. Why not get to high mount and beat the crap out of someone as opposed to placing yourself down close where they could bite too, or sweep you.

I mean, with Vunak there are a few other basic problems, but that's the most glaring that comes to mind.

Did you watch his biting as a defense to the RNC? That seemed a little more realistic.

I'm always surprised when people fail to see the most glaring problem with his biting tactics.

In almost every position he showed, both people have an equal opportunity to bite. Doesn't do you much good to bite when your opponent is biting the cr@p out of you back.

"In th3 d3adly str33t (tm)" you can't position yourself so that the opponent has the opportunity to do his own biting.

[bennyvt]

Well I don't go for the "well if I hit the ground I have lost". No you have just been smahsed you fool. You really think some guy on the street is going to stop when you tap or say uncle. I go by the, learn how to fight where ever you are approach. Thats got to be the strangest thing in MA I have heard. I atleast get the guys that think they can stop it but just giving up if it goes to the ground is spastic. And yeh I think any one that has been on the ground with someone good will tell you its nearly impossible to get to hit those spots if they have you.I meet one of my fellow students that introduced me to VT when he was a bouncer at my local night club. He used to get into heaps of fights being the roughest club in town. One night he was fighting three guys and at one point he was punching one guy and another ran up and wrapped his arms around him as he turned. The guy bit him in the chest. Anthony stuck his finger all the way in his eye and told him he would pop it out if he didn't stop bitting. The dude let go and he punched the **** out of the dude. But he had to spend 6mths worried that he would catch something. But bitting isn't always the ultimate technique and with control they could choose the most painfull stuff to do to you.

[YungChun]

I'm waiting for the Power Biting and Blood Drinking DVD Series to come out.. Should be just in time for Christmas when Paul's sauce is well stocked.... :p

[Dragonzbane76]

UM SIDE BOOB SHOT!:)




http://cdn.mademan.com/chickipedia/images/1/12/Alana_de_la_garza_maxim_12_SUcIhlS_257.jpg

[t_niehoff]

I'm always surprised when people fail to see the most glaring problem with his biting tactics.

In almost every position he showed, both people have an equal opportunity to bite. Doesn't do you much good to bite when your opponent is biting the cr@p out of you back.

"In th3 d3adly str33t (tm)" you can't position yourself so that the opponent has the opportunity to do his own biting.

Hence why I wrote: If you have the skills to mount your opponent and maintain it (which only comes from loads of rolling with good people), why in the world would you want to bite your opponent -- and risk being bitten in return? Why not actually use the advantage the mount gives you?

The whole biting, eye poking, groin striking, throat attacking, etc. is an attempt to circumvent the need -- and the hard work it takes -- of developing real skill.

[m1k3]

To me the strategy for grappling for self defense is pretty easy.
1. Take them down.
2. Sit on their chest. (Mount)
3. Feed them their teeth.
4. If they roll over, RNC.


:D

[Wayfaring]

I'm always surprised when people fail to see the most glaring problem with his biting tactics.

In almost every position he showed, both people have an equal opportunity to bite. Doesn't do you much good to bite when your opponent is biting the cr@p out of you back.

"In th3 d3adly str33t (tm)" you can't position yourself so that the opponent has the opportunity to do his own biting.

Yes that's true - from his RNC defense someone could bite back too. And actually in a street situation that's pretty likely if you start biting someone, they will respond with the same.

I think I've seen Roy Harris show some biting techniques for street self defense that work, but then again, he understands the delivery system.

[Dragonzbane76]

1. Take them down.
2. Sit on their chest. (Mount)
3. Feed them their teeth.
4. If they roll over, RNC.

simple and to the point. best kind of defense.

[Wayfaring]

No, that's training to fail. Those sorts of things only waste time, distract you from what you should really be doing (working for a high percentage escape), and give you a completely wrong focus.

Well from what I saw he seemed to be implementing in that section portions of a high percentage technique. He was peeling off the top arm, isolating it, then getting the proper grip on the choking arm, prior to biting.

The main problem is the opponent can bite too, and in more vital areas around the neck than the defender.

Of course the other problem is that if someone is looking to implement his biting defense, they are most likely going to be unaware and way too passive in movements leading up to the choke. The best way to defend that choke is in transition before it's applied. Start isolating an arm and escaping first.

[chusauli]

I think what happens is we may place ourselves in a box as labeled "WCK practitioner", when what we should be first and foremost is a martial artist.

Grappling is hard, but has its rewards. You may never be an Olympic Wrestler, or Mundial Champion, but you can pick up adequate skills if you crosstrain.

[bawang]

wing chun taech hiting the eye and gron. wing chun has no honor.

[chusauli]

wing chun taech hiting the eye and gron. wing chun has no honor.

Like a gun, WCK is neither good nor bad, nor is it honorable or without honor. It is the person using it who is responsible.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You guys are silly. You all talk like everyone you meet is going to be a MMA specialist. Even they get their a$$es kicked now and then. Even the champions. Unless you hang out at the door of MMA gyms or fight in a ring it ain't going to happen. In a bit over 20 years of working as bouncer and whatever, I have never ran up on someone so trained. I make no habit of looking for such people either. The average person would stand as juch chance on the ground with a good WC man as he would standing up. And it would not matter what style you fought against a top MMA fighter. He would still most likely whip your a$$. That probably applies to almost everyone on this forum. Picking on WC seems to be a favorite passtime for some of you losers. Same old same old, same old losers, same old arguements.

[t_niehoff]

You guys are silly. You all talk like everyone you meet is going to be a MMA specialist. Even they get their a$$es kicked now and then. Even the champions. Unless you hang out at the door of MMA gyms or fight in a ring it ain't going to happen. In a bit over 20 years of working as bouncer and whatever, I have never ran up on someone so trained. I make no habit of looking for such people either. The average person would stand as juch chance on the ground with a good WC man as he would standing up. And it would not matter what style you fought against a top MMA fighter. He would still most likely whip your a$$. That probably applies to almost everyone on this forum. Picking on WC seems to be a favorite passtime for some of you losers. Same old same old, same old losers, same old arguements.

WCK doesn't prepare you for the ground -- it doesn't provide the tools or the training (how much time have you spent on the ground?).

You don't need to be a "top MMA fighter" to have competent ground skills. And competent ground skills will enable you to beat almost any unskilled opponent on the ground (unless there is a huge disparity in strength/size). It takes only a few years of regular training to develop a competent ground game.

And a lot of "street fights" go very quickly to the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZA6Qm40KF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCGhAeypDg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[t_niehoff]

Well from what I saw he seemed to be implementing in that section portions of a high percentage technique. He was peeling off the top arm, isolating it, then getting the proper grip on the choking arm, prior to biting.

The main problem is the opponent can bite too, and in more vital areas around the neck than the defender.


Yes, that's one problem. Another is that decent grapplers will have ready answers (to continue his offense) to you peeling his arm -- this is something he will have encountered quite often.



Of course the other problem is that if someone is looking to implement his biting defense, they are most likely going to be unaware and way too passive in movements leading up to the choke. The best way to defend that choke is in transition before it's applied. Start isolating an arm and escaping first.

I think that it is best to focus on learning and developing good, solid, proven fundamentals.

[Dragonzbane76]

In a bit over 20 years of working as bouncer and whatever, I have never ran up on someone so trained.

maybe because they were training and not at the club/bar.

[Drizzt]

Plain and simple. Wing Chun is useless on the ground. There are many ways to keep yourself from being taken down within the system, but once it hits the ground you better know some BJJ, wrestling, or sombo. I think everyone should learn BJJ at the very least so you can handle a ground situation.

Your best bet is to keep it standing, but anyone who has trained a ground fighting style will take you down eventually. The reason is many BJJ schools also teach muay thai so they can be effective on their feet. So you better end the fight as quickly as possible. There are too many videos online of ground fighters, who train to take down stand up fighters, taking guys down and having their way with them. Learn some ground skills so you won't be that guy. You don't have to be a highly trained guy to do this. A blue belt in BJJ will most likely take you down.

[SAAMAG]

Sprawl, underhook, head control, counterknees, and positional escapes and reversals.

Learn all this and be good at it, in addition to your standup art and generally you'll be fine against the average guy trying to take it to the ground.

[Dragonzbane76]

Sprawl, underhook, head control, counterknees, and positional escapes and reversals.

Learn all this and be good at it, in addition to your standup art and generally you'll be fine against the average guy trying to take it to the ground.

yes in reality. But you still have the loonies out there who profess no need for this and consider it to much "wrestling" and under them. many in the TMA's fields put the blinders on and firmly stand against such common sense.

[SAAMAG]

One of my private workout partners is/was a hardcore WC guy. After working with me for a while now--and sparring--he understands that need for being familiar with other areas of combat that WC doesn't have answers for.

He was telling me today that his WC "isn't the same" anymore. Since I've worked with him on applying wing chun in various areas that aren't normally practiced he said it's actually helped him to learn the varying capacities by which WC works (for him). Still wing chun...but now more effective given the training methodology changes.

So the moral of the story is that WC works great...if you train it properly and use it within the totality of combat and not just a niche area. Then you see clearly that it doesn't have all the answers and knowing "just a little" outside the confines of the dogma is a help and doesn't *******ize the art in any way, shape, or form.

[Hardwork108]

LOL @ using WC to strike on the ground. just as there are very specific things you have to do for grappling on the ground that are completely different from standup, there are specific things you have to do for striking on the ground. Striking on the ground has a whole different set of principles, tactics and biomechanics.

Trying to strike on the ground with WC is no different than trying to use WC to grapple on the ground.

Boy, you really need to get some decent kung fu training under your belt, before you you continue broadcasting your TCMA-cluelessness, all over the World Wide Web.

[Hardwork108]

Do you guys think there is such a thing?
You see alot of videos etc that say antigrappling. I used to think like that but through actually trying it I have changed my view. So what do you guys think?

I did not read the whole thread, but I would say Wing Chun does have anti-grappling techniques. I would go further and say that other, if not all, kung fu styles have them.

Grappling did not start in the UFCs, nor is it exclusive to the West. It was around in China, even before the development of kung fu. Most major kung fu styles are balanced and will cover all scenarios of combat. That does not mean that they will all role on the ground for hours, but they will have techniques to prevent themselves going down. Others, will have some ground techniques.

The problem, IMHO, is not wether these techniques exist, but rather, that hardly anyone teaches kung fu holistically, which means that many people with "half knowledges" become kung fu critiques, going on to recommend sometimes irrelevant cross training to "improve" ones kung fu.

I would say that if some people have a holistic and complete knowledge of a given style, but then they decide to cross train in judo, or Bjj, then one can be more forgiving, but there are people that have not understood 10% of what their given style can give them, who go on to cross train in irrelevant styles, because they see their own core kung fu style as incomplete/non-functional, when all they would need to do is change kung fu schools, and dedicate themselves (and their attention spans) more intensively.

Unfortunately this forum seems to be populated by the type of people I described in the previous paragraph..........

[t_niehoff]

Boy, you really need to get some decent kung fu training under your belt, before you you continue broadcasting your TCMA-cluelessness, all over the World Wide Web.

No, what you need to do is get out and actually spend some time fighting on the ground.

If you think your WCK works on the ground, go visit a decent MMA school or bring in a decent MMA fighter for privates and see for yourself.

[Wayfaring]

Grappling did not start in the UFCs, nor is it exclusive to the West. It was around in China, even before the development of kung fu. Most major kung fu styles are balanced and will cover all scenarios of combat. That does not mean that they will all role on the ground for hours, but they will have techniques to prevent themselves going down. Others, will have some ground techniques.

The main addition of BJJ to the ground game was probably that the Gracie's did open challenge matches for decades. So it was the refinement of the training that advanced the art.


The problem, IMHO, is not wether these techniques exist, but rather, that hardly anyone teaches kung fu holistically, which means that many people with "half knowledges" become kung fu critiques, going on to recommend sometimes irrelevant cross training to "improve" ones kung fu.

The problem is that many people think teaching kung fu "holistically" makes someone better at fighting as opposed to a more stringent testing environment such as the Gracie's did with their challenge matches. Teaching "holistically" seems to have the goal of better health, not better fighting.


I would say that if some people have a holistic and complete knowledge of a given style, but then they decide to cross train in judo, or Bjj, then one can be more forgiving, but there are people that have not understood 10% of what their given style can give them, who go on to cross train in irrelevant styles, because they see their own core kung fu style as incomplete/non-functional, when all they would need to do is change kung fu schools, and dedicate themselves (and their attention spans) more intensively.

If you train in an ineffective manner, it does not matter how good your teacher is - holistically or any other way. You really over-generalize kung fu schools here. Most are rip-offs. The ones that are better probably have teachers who recognize the value of a better training paradigm as well.


Unfortunately this forum seems to be populated by the type of people I described in the previous paragraph..........
And it is filled with people who mistake holistic approaches for genuine martial skill.

[Knifefighter]

Boy, you really need to get some decent kung fu training under your belt, before you you continue broadcasting your TCMA-cluelessness, all over the World Wide Web.

Please show some examples of your decent kung fu punching being displayed on the ground.

[Dragonzbane76]

Please show some examples of your decent kung fu punching being displayed on the ground.

him showing anything but his mouth would be a change.

[Hardwork108]

No, what you need to do is get out and actually spend some time fighting on the ground.

If you think your WCK works on the ground, go visit a decent MMA school or bring in a decent MMA fighter for privates and see for yourself.

You can say whatever you want, but the fact is that you have no valid TCMA point of reference, as your main body, not to mention philosophy, of training is nothing but modern MMA.

So the least one can do when critiquing the TCMAs, is to have valid experience and understanding, which you (and all the other MMA knuckleheads criticizing kung fu here), DON'T HAVE!

[Hardwork108]

The main addition of BJJ to the ground game was probably that the Gracie's did open challenge matches for decades. So it was the refinement of the training that advanced the art.

I agree, however we must all realize that wrestling, including ground fighting, have been around for thousands of years, in China, Greece, Europe and the Middle East, and has been tested in I am sure, even death matches. Obviously, in modern times it has been watered down, then step in the Gracies and add some extra reality to it, and that is fine, and take off my hat to them.

I have lived in Brasil, and will probably end up living there too, and I have seen the BJJ in its home ground. It is phenomenom and it is good at what it does.

However, that does not mean that every Tom, **** and Harry, who trained it can come out and put down TCMA practices that have survived 1000s of years, just because he has not found a decent school in the "Smucksville" where he lives, or that he does not have the attention span for the more profound training methodologies. I am making a fair point here. It just gets tiring to see people who are truly Kung fu-clueless, come into these forums, time and again, spouting their clueless criticisms of valid TCMA practices, while claiming that their Mcdojo kung fu training together with their BJJ and kickboxing experience, somehow gives them qualifications to criticize arts that are truly above their heads.


The problem is that many people think teaching kung fu "holistically" makes someone better at fighting as opposed to a more stringent testing environment such as the Gracie's did with their challenge matches. Teaching "holistically" seems to have the goal of better health, not better fighting.

I believe that you have misunderstood what I meant by "holystically". I was not talking about health, but rather the training all of the fighting aspects of a given kung fu style. That is, all ranges, all conditioning and yes actual fighting training!

Example, how many Tiger Claw practitioners out there can do any actual damage with their claws? How many Wing Chun, Chow Gar, Pak Mei, etc, stylists can cause damage with their short strikes? The fact is that most CAN´T!!!!

That is because the great majority, including this forum´s clueless kung fu-critiques, have had access to just a SHELL of a given style of kung fu. So, and rightly so, they feel that TCMAs are all fantasies, but they WRONGLY believe that their mediocre experience contains any valid reference!


If you train in an ineffective manner, it does not matter how good your teacher is - holistically or any other way.

A good kung fu teacher will teach in an EFFECTIVE manner.


You really over-generalize kung fu schools here. Most are rip-offs.
I agree, and I have always said, most kung fu schools are rip-offs, furthermore, all of the clueless kung fu critiques who criticize and demean traditional kung fu practices, in this forum, have trained in the rip-off schools.


The ones that are better probably have teachers who recognize the value of a better training paradigm as well.
I am sure that they do.


And it is filled with people who mistake holistic approaches for genuine martial skill.

I as stated before, my reference to holistic had nothing to do with health aspects, although these are incorporated within most TCMA training. True, holistic TCMA training will incorporate, all ranges of fighting, conditioning, combat training, IP, and so on.

[Hardwork108]

Please show some examples of your decent kung fu punching being displayed on the ground.

Sorry, I do not have any You Tube videos, yet. So, I will leave the audio visual d1ckwaving, to you, and no matter how many videos you post, will not change the fact that you are no kung fu practitioner, meaning that you have no valid TCMA experience, hence have to valid reference points to criticize event the basic techniques of a given style of kung fu.

[Hardwork108]

him showing anything but his mouth would be a change.

I see that the man, another TCMA clueless poster, who once accused me of being a "Moasit" :rolleyes:, has broken his silence. I wonder if the TCMA world is more enlightened because of this....:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Sorry, I do not have any You Tube videos, yet. So, I will leave the audio visual d1ckwaving, to you, and no matter how many videos you post, will not change the fact that you are no kung fu practitioner, meaning that you have no valid TCMA experience, hence have to valid reference points to criticize event the basic techniques of a given style of kung fu.

LOL... that's like telling an airline pilot he has no valid reference when he tells you your kung fu training won't help you to fly a 747. If anyone knows what works in terms of flying a 747, it's a guy who has made a career out of it.

[t_niehoff]

You can say whatever you want, but the fact is that you have no valid TCMA point of reference, as your main body, not to mention philosophy, of training is nothing but modern MMA.

So the least one can do when critiquing the TCMAs, is to have valid experience and understanding, which you (and all the other MMA knuckleheads criticizing kung fu here), DON'T HAVE!

It doesn't matter whether you believe or that I or anyone has "a valid TCMA point of reference" or not (whatever that is). You don't need one to know whether or not something works. I don't need a muay thai "point of reference" or ever train in muay thai to know that it works. The evidence is there regardless of my "point of reference." Anyone can see that. They don't need to know the philosophy, the theory, or anything at all about it.

What things work on the ground is well-established by tons of direct evidence. Successful and skilled ground fighters know what that is from direct experience. They also know what sorts of things can't and don't work. They don't need to have a "fill-in-the-blank point of reference" or know the philosophy of fill-in-the-blank to know what works on the ground.

[SAAMAG]

Thank the baby jesus that was said. I understand the point hes trying to make though, that without first hand knowledge of gung fu one does not have the ability to discern what "good" gung fu is. But when it comes down to it, what works works.

[Hardwork108]

It doesn't matter whether you believe or that I or anyone has "a valid TCMA point of reference" or not (whatever that is).
"Whatever that is"?????

A valid TCMA point of reference comes from training in a VALID SCHOOL of TCMAs long enough to gain multilevel understanding of the art. That is true for all disciplines. You can't dabble in some mediocre training for a few months and then come and tell us that all TCMAs (and TJMAs) are "fantasy"!!!!


You don't need one to know whether or not something works. I don't need a muay thai "point of reference" or ever train in muay thai to know that it works.

Good example. Modern Muay Thai is the sports manifestation of traditional Siamese Boxing. If you are into sports fighting then have a look at San Da, as the sports manifestation of Traditional Chinese Boxing!!!



The evidence is there regardless of my "point of reference." Anyone can see that. They don't need to know the philosophy, the theory, or anything at all about it.

Yes, why strain an already fragile brain?


What things work on the ground is well-established by tons of direct evidence.

Sports fightin evidence!


Successful and skilled ground fighters know what that is from direct experience. They also know what sorts of things can't and don't work.

How will they know if certain things don't work if they themselves have not trained in them?


They don't need to have a "fill-in-the-blank point of reference" or know the philosophy of fill-in-the-blank to know what works on the ground.

That is very ironic coming from you in a forum where you and other MMA knuckleheads have been filling the blanks regarding the hows and whys of Traditional Kung fu Training!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Again, you have no point of reference in regards TCMAs. Any point of reference will come from finding that rare sifu, and the rarer sifu, who will teach someone like you, and years of dedicated training!!!!

THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS!!!

[Hardwork108]

LOL... that's like telling an airline pilot he has no valid reference when he tells you your kung fu training won't help you to fly a 747. If anyone knows what works in terms of flying a 747, it's a guy who has made a career out of it.

That is such a wrong analogy......

A better example to illustrate my point would be a hamburger cook in a fast food joint telling a gourmet chef the following,

"My food is faster to cook, hence more practical, and therefore better!!!"

"Why marinet your food with "complicated" ingredients, and leave it for up to 48 hours in the fridge, when you can just cook your meat quickly and get 'quicker results' ????"

"I mean who has the time?"

See, there are knuckleheads in all walks of life....:D

[Knifefighter]

See, there are knuckleheads in all walks of life....:D

As is evidenced by your clueless, theoretical, non-fighter posts.

[Hardwork108]

As is evidenced by your clueless, theoretical, non-fighter posts.

Exaclty!

My posts show you guys for what you are, and that is, clueless MMA knuckleheads, who instead of posting in MMA forums, come into kung fu forums, talking about TCMA methodologies that are way above your heads.

[Violent Designs]

Man this Hardwork guy is trying really hard, take it easy on him or else he's gonna blow a gasket.

[Hardwork108]

Man this Hardwork guy is trying really hard.

Well, that is because I am a dedicated educator, and I give my all, specially when dealling with the conginitively challenged.:D

[SAAMAG]

That is such a wrong analogy......

A better example to illustrate my point would be a hamburger cook in a fast food joint telling a gourmet chef the following,

"My food is faster to cook, hence more practical, and therefore better!!!"

"Why marinet your food with "complicated" ingredients, and leave it for up to 48 hours in the fridge, when you can just cook your meat quickly and get 'quicker results' ????"

"I mean who has the time?"

See, there are knuckleheads in all walks of life....:D

I see what you're trying to say here HW...but in a fight...does it matter if the knockout came from a "chef" or a "cook"? All that matters is that there was a knockout. Adding flavor doesn't win a fight any better than straight forward shot outside of feeding one's ego.

What logical reason is there to study an art for 40 years to learn to fight when you can learn to accomplish the same goal in 6 months?

[Wayfaring]

I agree, however we must all realize that wrestling, including ground fighting, have been around for thousands of years, in China, Greece, Europe and the Middle East, and has been tested in I am sure, even death matches. Obviously, in modern times it has been watered down, then step in the Gracies and add some extra reality to it, and that is fine, and take off my hat to them.

Good wrestling is as much of an art as any authentic kung fu.


However, that does not mean that every Tom, **** and Harry, who trained it can come out and put down TCMA practices that have survived 1000s of years, just because he has not found a decent school in the "Smucksville" where he lives, or that he does not have the attention span for the more profound training methodologies. I am making a fair point here. It just gets tiring to see people who are truly Kung fu-clueless, come into these forums, time and again, spouting their clueless criticisms of valid TCMA practices, while claiming that their Mcdojo kung fu training together with their BJJ and kickboxing experience, somehow gives them qualifications to criticize arts that are truly above their heads.

The unfortunate state of affairs currently is that most traditional training has given way to modern MMA training. The vast majority of kung fu schools are horrible, and survive off mass marketing and kids programs. Your average MMA school today usually will have a reasonable amount of fighting skill just due to it being tested consistently. Not so for the average kung fu school.


I believe that you have misunderstood what I meant by "holystically". I was not talking about health, but rather the training all of the fighting aspects of a given kung fu style. That is, all ranges, all conditioning and yes actual fighting training!

Perhaps. The traditional arts I have studied encompass the health approach as well as martial skills.


That is because the great majority, including this forum´s clueless kung fu-critiques, have had access to just a SHELL of a given style of kung fu. So, and rightly so, they feel that TCMAs are all fantasies, but they WRONGLY believe that their mediocre experience contains any valid reference!

This may be true. Still, it places the burden upon authentic TCMA schools and teachers to produce students that can fight and test their skills in the same arenas that MMA trainees do.

The problem is public perception. The rambunctious young people that want to fight typically will not go to a TCMA school to learn to do so. They will go to a MMA school. Your less athletic and / or business people are usually the main trainees at TCMA schools. This waters down the skill level.

[Dragonzbane76]

I see that the man, another TCMA clueless poster, who once accused me of being a "Moasit" , has broken his silence. I wonder if the TCMA world is more enlightened because of this....


you know I pity you, someone that has never experienced the true essence of what it is to take it to the limits of what you are. To never have tasted the defeat and redemption of sacrifice. To never have went the extra mile in preperation. To never have lived a life where you know in honest reality that what you have is "real" and no matter the outcome find that in the end only you hold the key. I pity you.

[Hardwork108]

I see what you're trying to say here HW...but in a fight...does it matter if the knockout came from a "chef" or a "cook"?
Well, the chef and the cook example apply to food. Which would you prefer, the food from a cook or a chef? Which one is generally better for your health? Which one leaves you a lasting impression? What if it was you who was the chef cooking for yourself and your family? Wouldn't the pleasure of eating be more profound, worth the extra years you would have spent learning to prepare food, as opposed to a cook? The health benefits for you and your family?

All of these assume that you have develped taste buds¨[read: have had access to genuine training, so as to know the difference]. I have met people that are happy to eat hamburgers, fries and other fast food, and would not know gourmet food if it fell on their heads. Perhaps, for these guys the thought of gourmet food being profound and special, is also considered as "fantasy"????? "Food is food, after all, it fills your stomach, so the faster the better"???


Of course, having said that, I also appreciate that actual "application" of all of this will also depend, on one's particular circumstance. For example, if you are in a hurry then you should be able to cook something quick and not so profound to get you on your way.

So, if you are in a hurry to learn to fight, perhaps to participate in sports competitions, or to work in the security industry, then all is well, go and hit the local kickboxing, MMA or BJJ gym.


All that matters is that there was a knockout. Adding flavor doesn't win a fight any better than straight forward shot outside of feeding one's ego.

Flavor applies to the food. In Kung fu terms, the word would be the ESSENCE of the art that one is learning. Many times that essence takes longer to assimilate into one's techniques, specially in the Internal arts.

As for knock outs, there are the MT ways; the boxing ways; the Karate ways and a 1001 kung fu ways, many of which are distinct from other arts. If one is realistically trained in any of the arts mentioned then one can cause a KO. This brings us to the Mcdojo phenomenon, which is partially responsible for this bad view of kung fu in the MA community, not to mention the cluelessness that is rife in forums such as this one.


What logical reason is there to study an art for 40 years to learn to fight when you can learn to accomplish the same goal in 6 months?

40 years is not accurate, but I get your point. Well, for some the end justifies the means. They will get better health benefits when they are older, including NOT getting chronic conditions from MA training that is meant to "save" them from danger.

They will also get some special skills, such as Iron Palm, Iron Body, Strong Claws, "Cotton Palm", and other abilities and so on, that will make the wait worhtwhile.

So, at the end of the day it is a question of choice, wether to learn a little bit of everything, put it together and become a fighter as quickly as possible, or find a profound art and train in an AUTHENTIC school, to get the long term benefits.

That personal choice will depend on ones own conditions, job, intellect, and or their spirtitual, emotional, and psychological condition/development/evolution. So, at the end of the day, it is not a question of a wrong decision or a right one, but what is, or at least seen, right for oneself.

The problem is that the people who have made the "learn quick" choice, coming to forums like this one and telling everyone that traditional kung fu is "not functional"; "it is fantasy" and etc. and that everyone has to take the modern MMA approach.

Meaning we are getting a "kung fu is no good" message from people who have at best a superficial understanding of the TCMAs (read: they are CLUELESS!!!).

Furthermore, we are getting that message in a KUNG FU Forum!

Now people like me who know better will treat this constant blabbering from the clueless, as they would a message from the village idiot, but IMHO, these people are sending the wrong message to the newbies who come to this forum for some TCMA advice and knowledge, and end up being told how great boxing, BJJ and MMA are for their kung fu, by the "lost in the woods" clueless MMA members of this forum.

This is a shame and totally unacceptable!

[Hardwork108]

you know I pity you, someone that has never experienced the true essence of what it is to take it to the limits of what you are.

I experience that every time I read one of your clueless posts......LOL!


To never have tasted the defeat and redemption of sacrifice.
Don't worry, your day will come when you finally defeat me in a TCMA discussion, where I will bow to your superior knowledge of KF (Knucklehead Fu).:D


To never have went the extra mile in preperation.

Look, I don't want to rub it in, but some of us do have sex lives you know, with lots of beautiful ladies lined up.....So, since someone like you would have the free time, then run a few extra miles for good old HW108. Perhaps that will cool you down.....LOL


To never have lived a life where you know in honest reality that what you have is "real"
Well my kung fu is REAL, the babes are REAL, and you are REALLY clueless in your assumptions.

Look, why don't you first try and get your facts about the TCMAs right, before you start guessing about me?????

Just a suggestion............


and no matter the outcome find that in the end only you hold the key.

Look, you hold the "key", as I have found my key a long time ago, and while you are holding the key, I will be holding the ladies.

By the way, your post was almost poetic. Tell me, have they started teaching poetry in your Knucklehead gym?

That sounds too cute. After giving each other chronic brain damage through "realistic" contact training, the balding and tatooed meat heads seat on the gym floor while their poetry teacher teaches them the literary arts....That image just brings tears to my eyes........


I pity you.

And so you should, for making me read your clueless posts all the time....LOL!

[t_niehoff]

"Whatever that is"?????

A valid TCMA point of reference comes from training in a VALID SCHOOL of TCMAs long enough to gain multilevel understanding of the art. That is true for all disciplines. You can't dabble in some mediocre training for a few months and then come and tell us that all TCMAs (and TJMAs) are "fantasy"!!!!


Well, I've been training in WCK since 1981. How long have you been? Who is your sifu?



Good example. Modern Muay Thai is the sports manifestation of traditional Siamese Boxing. If you are into sports fighting then have a look at San Da, as the sports manifestation of Traditional Chinese Boxing!!!


Sport is an approach that is superior to traditional training. That's why when we see sport fighters mix it up with traditional guys, the sport fighter wins 99% of the time.



Sports fightin evidence!


No, all the available evidence (excluding stories, unproved anecdotes, etc.).

All it takes is for you to point us to the evidence of good traditionally-trained fighters to convince me. Where are they? Why can't you point me to any? You tell me they exist but can't name one. Why? Whereas I can point you to all kinds of good sport fighters.



How will they know if certain things don't work if they themselves have not trained in them?


Because when you put in loads of time sparring/fighting, particularly with skilled, athletic people, you come to appreciate very clearly what fighting is REALLY like and what sort of things can work and won't work. For example, a boxer doesn't train to try and grab an opponent's punch out of the air. Yet, he will know that it won't work. Why? Because he sees what punching is really like -- that a "real" punch is too fast to grab, that it retracts even more quickly than it comes out, that even if he could do it, it would leave him open, etc. It is the same on the ground. Skilled grapplers know what an opponent will really do, what problems he will really give you, what you need to deal with, etc. He will know what sorts of things a person can do, can't do, what will create openings, etc.



That is very ironic coming from you in a forum where you and other MMA knuckleheads have been filling the blanks regarding the hows and whys of Traditional Kung fu Training!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Again, you have no point of reference in regards TCMAs. Any point of reference will come from finding that rare sifu, and the rarer sifu, who will teach someone like you, and years of dedicated training!!!!

THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS!!!

No one is talking about any shortcuts. If sifu teaches you X, how do you know it will work if you aren't REALLY doing it? If you haven't seen sifu make it work (in fighting) and you haven't made it work (in fighting)? It's just pure theory, a fantasy, speculation, something that you imagine will work. The point of sport, and sport fighters, is that they know X will work because they are in fact doing it, all the time, every time they train (since sparring is the core of their training) in sparring with other skilled people. There is no theory, no fantasy, no need to imagine what will work. They know because they are constantly doing it.

Whereas the traditional guys aren't doing it, they aren't fighting with skilled fighters.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hey HW, check this article out if you haven't seen it yet:

http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/



...

Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. He was known for the ferocity of his attacks, and was called ‘the Lu Xun [5] of martial arts’ for his willingness to experiment, to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the 1980s, Zhao Daoxin (by that time already in his 80s) taught what he had learnt to Zhang Hongjun. Based on Zhao’s teaching and his own hard training, Zhang went on to become a nationally famous San Da fighter. He inherited Zhao’s ‘heavy’ punches and kicks.

When asked about Zhao’s participation in Leitai tournaments, Zhang Hongjun showed this reporter a portion of Zhao’s diary summarising his understanding of kungfu and his thoughts on the 1929 tournament: ‘No foreigners dared to enter the contest. Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either kocked out or scared out of the competition.Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training of their own device.’…….

...

In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “D@mmit, d@mmit”.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder. Li Jinglin, the Wudang sword master, head of the Central Guoshu Institute and organiser of the 2 Leitai tournaments, once said “If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu’”.

...

Happy reading!

[SAAMAG]

Well, the chef and the cook example apply to food. Which would you prefer, the food from a cook or a chef? Which one is generally better for your health? Which one leaves you a lasting impression? What if it was you who was the chef cooking for yourself and your family? Wouldn't the pleasure of eating be more profound, worth the extra years you would have spent learning to prepare food, as opposed to a cook? The health benefits for you and your family?

All of these assume that you have develped taste buds¨[read: have had access to genuine training, so as to know the difference]. I have met people that are happy to eat hamburgers, fries and other fast food, and would not know gourmet food if it fell on their heads. Perhaps, for these guys the thought of gourmet food being profound and special, is also considered as "fantasy"????? "Food is food, after all, it fills your stomach, so the faster the better"???


Of course, having said that, I also appreciate that actual "application" of all of this will also depend, on one's particular circumstance. For example, if you are in a hurry then you should be able to cook something quick and not so profound to get you on your way.

So, if you are in a hurry to learn to fight, perhaps to participate in sports competitions, or to work in the security industry, then all is well, go and hit the local kickboxing, MMA or BJJ gym.



Flavor applies to the food. In Kung fu terms, the word would be the ESSENCE of the art that one is learning. Many times that essence takes longer to assimilate into one's techniques, specially in the Internal arts.

As for knock outs, there are the MT ways; the boxing ways; the Karate ways and a 1001 kung fu ways, many of which are distinct from other arts. If one is realistically trained in any of the arts mentioned then one can cause a KO. This brings us to the Mcdojo phenomenon, which is partially responsible for this bad view of kung fu in the MA community, not to mention the cluelessness that is rife in forums such as this one.



40 years is not accurate, but I get your point. Well, for some the end justifies the means. They will get better health benefits when they are older, including NOT getting chronic conditions from MA training that is meant to "save" them from danger.

They will also get some special skills, such as Iron Palm, Iron Body, Strong Claws, "Cotton Palm", and other abilities and so on, that will make the wait worhtwhile.

So, at the end of the day it is a question of choice, wether to learn a little bit of everything, put it together and become a fighter as quickly as possible, or find a profound art and train in an AUTHENTIC school, to get the long term benefits.

That personal choice will depend on ones own conditions, job, intellect, and or their spirtitual, emotional, and psychological condition/development/evolution. So, at the end of the day, it is not a question of a wrong decision or a right one, but what is, or at least seen, right for oneself.

The problem is that the people who have made the "learn quick" choice, coming to forums like this one and telling everyone that traditional kung fu is "not functional"; "it is fantasy" and etc. and that everyone has to take the modern MMA approach.

Meaning we are getting a "kung fu is no good" message from people who have at best a superficial understanding of the TCMAs (read: they are CLUELESS!!!).

Furthermore, we are getting that message in a KUNG FU Forum!

Now people like me who know better will treat this constant blabbering from the clueless, as they would a message from the village idiot, but IMHO, these people are sending the wrong message to the newbies who come to this forum for some TCMA advice and knowledge, and end up being told how great boxing, BJJ and MMA are for their kung fu, by the "lost in the woods" clueless MMA members of this forum.

This is a shame and totally unacceptable!

You know what? I can completely see your point there. The weird part is that i really dont disagree with most of what was said either.

The part that i think we differ on is the long term health benefits. One of the reasons i choose to continue muay thai is because it gives me a far better workout than just about any system ive trained. No doubt though you can alter the traditional wc training to have more cardio, padwork, and bag work too...but the health benefits can be had in the long run even when gaining fighting skill in the short run.

[Dragonzbane76]

Don't worry, your day will come when you finally defeat me in a TCMA discussion, where I will bow to your superior knowledge of KF (Knucklehead Fu).

you and having to win the internet... lol Good for you.

Oh mr. Hw8 I bow down to you superior tin foil hat wearing propaganda. Your right I know nothing of "your" TCMA along with everyone else on the face of the planet. you live in your own world for sure.

[Hardwork108]

You know what? I can completely see your point there. The weird part is that i really dont disagree with most of what was said either.

I kinda thought that you would think along the same lines. :)


The part that i think we differ on is the long term health benefits. One of the reasons i choose to continue muay thai is because it gives me a far better workout than just about any system ive trained.

Eventhough the concepts of health and fitness can overlap in some areas, IMHO, there is a distinction between the two. I have personally met people who were fit, but not really that healthy.

The Wing Chun that I trained had great conditioning on one side but it was balanced with Internal training (Chi kung). The combination made me feel more healthy than I ever had felt in my life.

My traditional Chow Gar training had a different Internal approach, which also made me feel healthy.


No doubt though you can alter the traditional wc training to have more cardio, padwork, and bag work too...

There seems to be many different "traditional" Wing Chun training available nowadays.

I can only talk about mine, which included what seemed to be endless repetitions of different varieties of sit ups, leg raises, low stance training, animal walking (Tiger, Lizard, etc.), and (the now famous:D) chin-ups. Then I had what seemed to be endless repetitions of the forms, Iron Palm training (which included, hitting the sand bowl; hitting the sand bag; hitting a very unusual type of "makiwarad"), chi kung, and endless repetitions of techniques and chi sao (striking, grappling and a combination of the two), and contact sparring.

That is why I loose it sometimes, when we get some former Mcdojo WC (or kung fu)"master", coming here and declaring that all Wing Chun (if not all kung fu) is about weak 'stick men' practicing forms, or something on the same lines!!!



but the health benefits can be had in the long run even when gaining fighting skill in the short run.
I agree that fitness can benefit health, but IMHO, there are other factors that are inherent in authentic TCMA training that enhance health even further.

[Hardwork108]

Hey HW, check this article out if you haven't seen it yet:

http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/



Happy reading!

Why do people always assume that it is either, or?

You can practice IP and hard sparring, then what happens? I tell you what happens, people ignore it and carry on assuming that if you follow certain Traditional methodologies then you automatically lack conditioning and fighting experience.

Going back to the article again, I wonder what would have happened if the two fighters had had fight in a bar, or in the street? Would you bet your life savings on either one of them?

Let me give another theoretical example, Mike Tyson lost to Evander Holifield and Buster Douglas, in the ring. Would you bet against him winning in a street fight against either of the two?

These are serious questions that have to be considered when one uses the sports model of fighting as the beginning and the end of all!!!

[Hardwork108]

Well, I've been training in WCK since 1981. How long have you been?

The world, including this forum, is full of Kung fu-clueless people who have trained WC for "decades"...LOL

Some of them make money teaching it to people like you, who then go on to become Glorified Kickboxers, or "Modern MMA is Best", advocates.


Who is your sifu?
You wouldn't know my sifu, therefore any reference to him would be inutil for you, but I will tell you this much, he is not related to Ken Shamrock....


Sport is an approach that is superior to traditional training. That's why when we see sport fighters mix it up with traditional guys, the sport fighter wins 99% of the time.

That would be because most traditional may have had the same mediocre Mcdojo/kwoon training as you?

Also, most traditional training is not generally aimed at making you a good sports fighter. Some schools, including kung fu ones, will have that kind of training, eg. a San Da section!


No, all the available evidence (excluding stories, unproved anecdotes, etc.).
Most of your "available evidence" comes from the specialized arena of sports, where, again, you can also see the results of sportified TCMAs, that is San Da, for yourself.

Otherwise, there are thousands of fights happening all over the world, in streets, bars, restaurants, night clubs, and between gangs. I believe that you cannot make generalized comments, without taking into account the REAL NHB arena.


All it takes is for you to point us to the evidence of good traditionally-trained fighters to convince me. Where are they?

They are where they should be, that is, in their Kwoons and Dojos!


Why can't you point me to any? You tell me they exist but can't name one. Why?
I can point you to my sifus........

Hey, does Mas. Oyama count?:D



Whereas I can point you to all kinds of good sport fighters.
You mean sports fighters (who no doubt would be good in street situations - no one is denying that), surely?




Because when you put in loads of time sparring/fighting, particularly with skilled, athletic people, you come to appreciate very clearly what fighting is REALLY like and what sort of things can work and won't work. For example, a boxer doesn't train to try and grab an opponent's punch out of the air. Yet, he will know that it won't work.

It definitely will not work for him, that is for sure!



Why?

Because, most boxers have no valid TCMA training, therefore they are unaware of its scope, just like you, I might add!


Because he sees what punching is really like -- that a "real" punch is too fast to grab, that it retracts even more quickly than it comes out, that even if he could do it, it would leave him open, etc.
Now, who is the one being theoretical? LOL

No one goes into a fight, aiming to grab punchs in the air, but if you train for it then you may pull it off if a weakenned and dazed opponent throws it......


It is the same on the ground. Skilled grapplers know what an opponent will really do, what problems he will really give you, what you need to deal with, etc. He will know what sorts of things a person can do, can't do, what will create openings, etc.

How will he know what a kung fu person will do on the ground, if he, the grappler, has never trained kung fu?????

See, some kung fu styles do take the ground scenario seriously, and they have techniques for it and they are NOT sports fighting techniques. So, how will the grappler know in a REAL fight, what is waiting for him?

You see, while every kung fu-clueless MMA knucklehead, that for some mysterious reason insists in posting in this KUNG FU forum, will recommend "cross training" in sports fighting to the TCMA-ists, he will never recommend the reverse to the sports fighers.

I see a profound IGNORANCE at the core roots of this phenomenom!



No one is talking about any shortcuts. If sifu teaches you X, how do you know it will work if you aren't REALLY doing it?

The fact that you assume that there are no TCMA schools who do realistic fighting training shows the superficiality of your "kung fu" experience!



If you haven't seen sifu make it work (in fighting) and you haven't made it work (in fighting)? It's just pure theory, a fantasy, speculation, something that you imagine will work.

Now we all know that your "kung fu" sifus sold you some tall tales, leading you to think that all sifus who teach techniques based on their fighting experience are lying and selling fanatasies, unless they have won medals in sports tournaments...:rolleyes:


The point of sport, and sport fighters, is that they know X will work because they are in fact doing it, all the time, every time they train (since sparring is the core of their training) in sparring with other skilled people. There is no theory, no fantasy, no need to imagine what will work. They know because they are constantly doing it.

Yes, they know what will work in the sports arena; they know how to use the ring; they know when the round is about to end, so they can take a rest; they know that the referee will protect them if things get out of hand, and they know a lot of other things that are irrelevant in the street situation.

Again, I am not saying that being a good contact sports fighter will not give you the advantage in the street. No one is denying that, however, I am attempting to inform you that there are more ways than one, to skin a cat. That is, TCMA methodologies are also valid, and that just because you have not studied any valid TCMAs, you should not assume that they are "fantasy"!


Whereas the traditional guys aren't doing it, they aren't fighting with skilled fighters.

You mean, skilled SPORTS FIGHTERS?

Well, if you are saying that you do, then why don't you go to TCMA, or TJMA school near you and show them how "good" you are? Surely, with your superior training you could beat every "fantasy TCMA-ist" on the planet?

You seem to like to rough it up, then what is stopping you? You can take Knifefighter with you, so that he can video tape you, and take you to hospital, just in case;).....LOL!

Go out there my boy, the world is yours, make a name for yourself......:rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

HW,

All you keep doing is asserting that X exists -- with X being all your TMA fantasies, from REAL sifu, to REAL TMA fighters, REAL training, to secret ways of fighting, etc. -- but can never provide any evidence to support your claims. You won't even name your sifu (who you claim is one of those "real" ones). Assertions are meaningless. People can assert anything.

You can't provide any evidence to support any of your claims. You can't even provide sound reasons.

I ask you who has this REAL kung fu? Why can't you provide me one contemporary name ? If you want to see good MMA or good boxing or good BJJ or good MT, I can direct you to all kinds (loads) of people, gyms, etc. They are not hard to find.

I ask you how do you know so-and-so is any good? You can't provide any answers. You've never seen them fight anyone (certainly no one with proven skills). Yet I can point you to all kinds of people (loads) with proven levels of skill in MMA, MT, boxing, BJJ, etc. They are not hard to find.

All you can do is assert that they do exist, that they are good, that these other things work, etc.

Apparently we should just take your word for it.

Nor do you understand "sport" -- sport is vastly superior to traditional ways of training (forms, unrealistic drills/exercises, etc.). Because sport is, above all else, performance-based. Sport training is concerned with ACTUALLY playing the game. In sport, you only train things which have proved and continue to prove to work consistently (and so weed out anything that doesn't prove worthwhile) in playing the game, you train those things realistically (just as you will do them in playing the game), and you practice REALLY using them (actually playing the game). Sport is merely the means of taking your art and making it functional -- and it can't be functional unless it is functioning (you are doing it).

[Dragonzbane76]

T,

Its useless to try and talk sense with this man. He lives in a small world of his own making. He has a chip on his shoulder for any that do mma, or other styles. He will not provide you with the evidence you want, (which we all know does not exist in the first place)

He is mentally unstable and suffers from extreme paranoid bouts. If hopeless has a face it's this man.

[t_niehoff]

T,

Its useless to try and talk sense with this man. He lives in a small world of his own making. He has a chip on his shoulder for any that do mma, or other styles. He will not provide you with the evidence you want, (which we all know does not exist in the first place)

He is mentally unstable and suffers from extreme paranoid bouts. If hopeless has a face it's this man.

It's useless to talk sense to him if my goal was to get him to see sense. I have no such expectation.

But you point to an interesting dilemma -- do we ignore nonsense or do we address it and expose it for what it is?

[Dragonzbane76]

do we ignore nonsense or do we address it and expose it for what it is?

I'm all for exposing the nonsense of MA's. But I think that Mr. HW8 has already dug his hole around here anyways. Most take him with a grain of salt anyways, and recognize his bouts of dementia and absurd comments. I'm all for the realistic approach, but like I stated we can only point out the hypocracy/idiotic of others and let people decide for themselves.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Why do people always assume that it is either, or?

Are you assuming that I'm assuming? ;)



You can practice IP and hard sparring, then what happens? I tell you what happens, people ignore it and carry on assuming that if you follow certain Traditional methodologies then you automatically lack conditioning and fighting experience.

I don't know anyone, whom I consider skilled, who ignores sparring at the expense of conditioning, or vice versa. One without the other is asking for defeat.



Going back to the article again, I wonder ...

As far as I'm concerned, the most important sentence in the article I quoted comes from Li JingLin:



“If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu'.”

[Hardwork108]

HW,

All you keep doing is asserting that X exists -- with X being all your TMA fantasies, from REAL sifu, to REAL TMA fighters, REAL training,

In a world full of Mcdojos and Mckwoons, such as the ones that you and the likes of Dragonzbane76 (KFF's resident kung fu-clueless stalker, LOL!), have presumably studied in, it is always relevant to mention that there are authentic, valid and yes, REAL, TCMA, methodolgies in existance today, and just because a group of knuckleheads have not seen these, while training in their kickboxing and MMA gyms, it does not mean that they don't exist.



to secret ways of fighting, etc. --
I don't believe that I have referred to "secret ways of fighting" in this discussion. If I have, then please show me where!

Of course, that is not to say that there are no secret methodologies in the TCMAs, but then those are kept for the none-knuckleheads of this world.


but can never provide any evidence to support your claims.
I have had the evidence for a long time, because unlike you I have trained with REAL TCMA sifus. You are the one who is without the evidence, as you are not going to find this evidence in a kickboxing gym.

Having said that, I believe that the evidence will come to you, when you are ready for it, or if you gather enough courage to go to your local China Town, find a kwoon and challenge the sifu or a senior member (politely, of course).



You won't even name your sifu (who you claim is one of those "real" ones).

Hasn't it crossed your mind that perhaps none of my sifus want their names plastered in internet forums?


Assertions are meaningless. People can assert anything.
Assertions can be based on evidence, meaning that just because you do not have that evidence, because of your Mcdojo training and lack of research (besides watching sports tournaments), does not mean that what I say is false!


You can't provide any evidence to support any of your claims. You can't even provide sound reasons.
Again, I have the evidence. It is you who does not have it, partially because you have made up your mind already, and that you do not have any authentic kung fu training under your belt!

So, I am saying that you are in the majority, as far as MMA people with supposed TCMA experience are concerned. You have taken an at best, little bit of knowledge, and confused yourself into thinking that the TCMAS and their Japanese counterparts are all fantasy, and you make it a point to post in none MMA forums to spread your clueless message!


I ask you who has this REAL kung fu? Why can't you provide me one contemporary name ?

You mean in the SPORTS TOURNAMENT ARENA, don't you? If so, then search Youtube for San da [the REAL Chinese variety, not the New York one!:D)



If you want to see good MMA or good boxing or good BJJ or good MT, I can direct you to all kinds (loads) of people, gyms, etc. They are not hard to find.

No doubt, as sports fighting tournaments are very common nowadays.......


I ask you how do you know so-and-so is any good? You can't provide any answers. You've never seen them fight anyone (certainly no one with proven skills). Yet I can point you to all kinds of people (loads) with proven levels of skill in MMA, MT, boxing, BJJ, etc. They are not hard to find.

Well again, I agree that sports tournaments are very common nowadays, hence it is easy to find fighters with sports proven skills, which in many ways are applicable to real fighting.



All you can do is assert that they do exist, that they are good, that these other things work, etc.
I can do that, because unlike you I have trained TCMAs with authentic sifus!!!



Apparently we should just take your word for it.
You can do whatever the h&ll you like, I am just attempting to enlighten you, and others here, who wouldn't know real TCMAs, even if they fell on their heads.

You have no reference whatsoever to what you say, your references are solely based on your modern MMA/kickboxing approach, which are fine if you are talking about their benefits, but not so fine when you talk about and blindly criticize TCMA methodologies that are way above your head!!!!


Nor do you understand "sport" -- sport is vastly superior to traditional ways of training (forms, unrealistic drills/exercises, etc.).
"Realistically", as it applies to the sports scenario/arena!!!!


Because sport is, above all else, performance-based.
You mean "performance" within the constraints of a sports arena, hence rules, protection and the match setting, surely?



Sport training is concerned with ACTUALLY playing the game.

True TCMA training does not concern playing "games"!


In sport, you only train things which have proved and continue to prove to work consistently (and so weed out anything that doesn't prove worthwhile) in playing the game, you train those things realistically (just as you will do them in playing the game), and you practice REALLY using them (actually playing the game). Sport is merely the means of taking your art and making it functional -- and it can't be functional unless it is functioning (you are doing it).

And in a sports setting/arena, at that, meaning, the rules, the preset match conditions, etc. I am beginning to finally "understand" you!:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

T

Its useless to try and talk sense with this man. He lives in a small world of his own making. He has a chip on his shoulder for any that do mma, or other styles. He will not provide you with the evidence you want, (which we all know does not exist in the first place)

He is mentally unstable and suffers from extreme paranoid bouts. If hopeless has a face it's this man.




I'm all for exposing the nonsense of MA's. But I think that Mr. HW8 has already dug his hole around here anyways. Most take him with a grain of salt anyways, and recognize his bouts of dementia and absurd comments. I'm all for the realistic approach, but like I stated we can only point out the hypocracy/idiotic of others and let people decide for themselves.


Hey Dragonazbane,

You know when I realized that you were stalking me all across this forum, and told you to get a life and find a woman, I did not mean that you should hook up with t_niehoff, but if coming out of the closet is your thing, then kudos to you....:D

[Hardwork108]

Are you assuming that I'm assuming? ;)



I don't know anyone, whom I consider skilled, who ignores sparring at the expense of conditioning, or vice versa. One without the other is asking for defeat.



As far as I'm concerned, the most important sentence in the article I quoted comes from Li JingLin:

Well, I happen to agree with your post. :D

[Knifefighter]

In a world full of Mcdojos and Mckwoons, such as the ones that you and the likes of Dragonzbane76 (KFF's resident kung fu-clueless stalker, LOL!), have presumably studied in....

blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment,blah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** commentblah, blah, stupid, uninformed, theoretical, non-fighter bull$**** comment....

that, meaning, the rules, the preset match conditions, etc. I am beginning to finally "understand" you!:rolleyes:

If there was jail time for cluelessness, you would have been handed 17 life sentences without the possibility of parole.

[Hardwork108]

If there was jail time for cluelessness, you would have been handed 17 life sentences without the possibility of parole.

Yes, very possible, if we all lived in Merry MMA Knucklehead Land, that is.....LOL!

[m1k3]

hard work 1-0-8
traditional gung fu skillz
fantasy fighter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

September 27 2010, read the date please.
Now, explain to me how we are STILL having a "antigrappling" debate/thread?!?!?

[Hardwork108]

hard work 1-0-8
traditional gung fu skillz
fantasy fighter.

m 1 k-3

Modern MMA Skillz

Knucklehead-fighter :D

[Hardwork108]

September 27 2010, read the date please.
Now, explain to me how we are STILL having a "antigrappling" debate/thread?!?!?

It so happens that some MA-ists with "modern" inclinations think that the TCMAs do not have anti grappling techniques.

Correcting them and getting the message through their heads has turned out to be not so easy, probably due to the fact of the numerous blows received by their skulls, and by extension, their brains, during Modern "functionald" training.....LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

It so happens that some MA-ists with "modern" inclinations think that the TCMAs do not have anti grappling techniques.

Correcting them and getting the message through their heads has turned out to be not so easy, probably due to the fact of the numerous blows received by their skulls, and by extension, their brains, during Modern "functionald" training.....LOL!

There is no such a thing as anti-grappling.
Never has been and never will be.
There is gappling and striking, with or without weapons.

Every single "example of anti-grappling" we have seen has failed miseribly VS a trained grappler, I don't recall ONE time it has worked.
Do you?
Not anecdotes that no one cares for, but an actual event verififed by people that couldn't care less about the outcome.

I mean, youtube, goodlevideos, dailymotion, etc, etc, are all full of videos of FAILED anti-grappling, why not ONE of succesful anti-grappling?


Because it doesn't exist.

Unless of course IF anything that is done against a grappler is called anti-grappling, in which case the following are examples of succesful anti-grappling:
Grappling.
Clinching
Striking.
firearms.
knives.
Chairs.
Cars.
Planes.
Motorcycles.
Skateboards.
Parkour.
Franks' red hot sauce ( I put that **** on everything).
Etc.

[m1k3]

There is no such thing as anti-grappling. Just like there is no such thing as anti-striking. I may use striking against your grappling or grappling against your striking or striking against your striking or grappling against your grappling.

Anti-grappling is a load of sh1t should by the ruthless to the clueless or even worse sold by the clueless to the clueless.

BTW, HW108, I too prefer traditional martial arts training. My style is grappling and can trace it's lineage back to ancient Greece. Unlike these modern kung fu arts from China. :D

[Hardwork108]

There is no such a thing as anti-grappling.
Never has been and never will be.
There is gappling and striking, with or without weapons.

Every single "example of anti-grappling" we have seen has failed miseribly VS a trained grappler, I don't recall ONE time it has worked.
Do you?
Not anecdotes that no one cares for, but an actual event verififed by people that couldn't care less about the outcome.

I mean, youtube, goodlevideos, dailymotion, etc, etc, are all full of videos of FAILED anti-grappling, why not ONE of succesful anti-grappling?


Because it doesn't exist.

Unless of course IF anything that is done against a grappler is called anti-grappling, in which case the following are examples of succesful anti-grappling:
Grappling.
Clinching
Striking.
firearms.
knives.
Chairs.
Cars.
Planes.
Motorcycles.
Skateboards.
Parkour.
Franks' red hot sauce ( I put that **** on everything).
Etc.

Simple, what I meant by anti grappling were TCMA techniques that would stop someone from taking a hold of you and taking you down. They could include even simple strikes, or more elaborate Chin- na....

[Violent Designs]

t_niehoff studied under Robert Chu, I would hardly consider that a McDojo though....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Simple, what I meant by anti grappling were TCMA techniques that would stop someone from taking a hold of you and taking you down. They could include even simple strikes, or more elaborate Chin- na....

That is not anti-grappling though, the term doesn't even exist in TCMA.
Time to drop the whole "anti" anything stuff.
All it does is make grapplers out to be some sort of supermen that specially designed techniques were invented for, BS.
There is no such a thing as anti-grappling just as there is no such a thing as "anti-striking".

[Hardwork108]

There is no such thing as anti-grappling. Just like there is no such thing as anti-striking. I may use striking against your grappling or grappling against your striking or striking against your striking or grappling against your grappling.
Anti-grappling is a load of sh1t should by the ruthless to the clueless or even worse sold by the clueless to the clueless.


I think that there is a misunderstanding here, or perhaps I did not put it down the way I should have. If you use your techniques withing the CONTEXT of stopping someone from taking you down, then no matter what they are, they will automatically become anti grappling!

Similarly, if you avoid, or block a strike and counter attack successfully, then your technique classify as an "anti striking" technique.

My point has always been, that just because some guy did not learn to handle himself against a grappler while learning "kung fu" in a Mcdojo, does not mean that the TCMAs do not have answers for grappling attacks. That is all.

That is what I meant. I hope that my explanation clears up any misunderstanding.:)


BTW, HW108, I too prefer traditional martial arts training. My style is grappling and can trace it's lineage back to ancient Greece. Unlike these modern kung fu arts from China. :D

LOL! Hey, didn't you know that modern is best!!! Our modern science apparently "knows everything" there is to know about MA training?...LOL!

Well, there were wrestling arts in China before, and during, the development of what we call kung fu, and that is why I see it as absurd when many Modern MA-ists here say that the TCMAs do not consider the ground scenario.

[Hardwork108]

t_niehoff studied under Robert Chu, I would hardly consider that a McDojo though....

First of all the Mcdojo is inside the essence of who t_niehoff is, and secondly I don't think he studied with Robert Chu long enough to learn anything, and at least his opinions regarding all TCMAs and TJMAs seem to be different from that of Sifu Chu's.

T_niehoff's monologues do nothing but show profound cluelessness regarding the TCMAs.!!!!

[Knifefighter]

hard work 1-0-8
traditional gung fu skillz
fantasy fighter.
Mentally ill

Corrected to reflect reality.

[Hardwork108]

That is not anti-grappling though, the term doesn't even exist in TCMA.
Time to drop the whole "anti" anything stuff.
All it does is make grapplers out to be some sort of supermen that specially designed techniques were invented for, BS.
There is no such a thing as anti-grappling just as there is no such a thing as "anti-striking".
I see your point. Neither of my sifus used that term. What one does is react to any attack accordingly. However, as I stated and implied to M1k3, if your attack stops a grappling move, then it becomes "anti grappling", and if it stops a strike, then it becomes "anti striking". Of course, it would be silly to label them as such, however my point has always been that authentic TCMA schools deal with all scenarios of combat, and not just striking.

[Hardwork108]

Corrected to reflect reality.

Oh you are hurtin' and I am loving it...:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see your point. Neither of my sifus used that term. What one does is react to any attack accordingly. However, as I stated and implied to M1k3, if your attack stops a grappling move, then it becomes "anti grappling", and if it stops a strike, then it becomes "anti striking". Of course, it would be silly to label them as such, however my point has always been that authentic TCMA schools deal with all scenarios of combat, and not just striking.

I don't agree about reacting to an attack, but that is a different thread.
Here is the thing, TCMA doesn't really address the grappling issue as well as many may think because it can only address what it is exposed to.
And TCMA is NOT exposed to the high level of grappling that grappling and MMA are, as such, those systems are far better equipped to deal with grappling.
Just like striking systems are far better equipped to deal with strikes.
You don't go to Shotokan to learn the sprawl and you don't go to BJJ to learn how to throw a left hook.

[Sardinkahnikov]

People seem to advertise "anti-grappling" as a way to keep being a "TMA" guy and take on those pesky UFC types. Like all the other branding bull****, like "TMA", "MMA" and such, "anti-grappling" is more of a marketing strategy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People seem to advertise "anti-grappling" as a way to keep being a "TMA" guy and take on those pesky UFC types. Like all the other branding bull****, like "TMA", "MMA" and such, "anti-grappling" is more of a marketing strategy.

Agreed, but one that is WAY past its "prime", if it ever had one.

[Dragonzbane76]

Here is the thing, TCMA doesn't really address the grappling issue as well as many may think because it can only address what it is exposed to.
And TCMA is NOT exposed to the high level of grappling that grappling and MMA are, as such, those systems are far better equipped to deal with grappling.
Just like striking systems are far better equipped to deal with strikes.
You don't go to Shotokan to learn the sprawl and you don't go to BJJ to learn how to throw a left hook.

agree.

environment, all comes down to it. When you study grappling and thats what you do all the time it's your environment. TCMA does not have that long term application. there is a time and place for everything, I'm sure everyone agree's. the "anti" this or that is a load of sh!t. TCMA does not train as BJJ/mma/wrestling does period. And when they go into that world they find that they are lacking in all the intricate little details that happen.

[Hardwork108]

Here is the thing, TCMA doesn't really address the grappling issue as well as many may think because it can only address what it is exposed to.
I agree, and I have never said that Kung fu is wrestling art. However, it does cover the scenario, in that it does have techniques to prevent an exponent from going down, and in some cases it has ground techniques, just in case. Are they wrestling techniques? No, but they will have some grappling elements (Chin-na/Kum na), together with striking ones. Can they make it work against a ground fighter? Yes, and NO, depending on a given STREET FIGHT situation. I am not talking about tournaments, which are different, even though they have great merit as well.


And TCMA is NOT exposed to the high level of grappling that grappling and MMA are, as such, those systems are far better equipped to deal with grappling.

Yes, but where, in the street or the ring? I ask this because even grapplers sometimes don' t want to go to the ground in a street fight.

Having said that, even a grappler that has not experienced interaction with strikers, may be able to get in and throw and defeat a striker.

The opposite can be true too, even if the striker is a one dimensional , strike only, fighter.


Just like striking systems are far better equipped to deal with strikes.
You don't go to Shotokan to learn the sprawl and you don't go to BJJ to learn how to throw a left hook.

Of course, but those who learn shotokan the way it was meant to be learned have a better chance against a grappler then those who have learned it in a Mcdojo, and in a one dimensional manner.

What I am saying, have always have said is that the TCMAs are not as bland and one dimensional that some of the former Mcdojo-ist, MMA-ists here would have us believe, and that a complete training in them will give you a potent weapons to fight at all ranges, not necessarily specialize you in all of them, of course.

[Hardwork108]

agree.

environment, all comes down to it. When you study grappling and thats what you do all the time it's your environment. TCMA does not have that long term application. there is a time and place for everything, I'm sure everyone agree's. the "anti" this or that is a load of sh!t. TCMA does not train as BJJ/mma/wrestling does period. And when they go into that world they find that they are lacking in all the intricate little details that happen.

:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

People seem to advertise "anti-grappling" as a way to keep being a "TMA" guy and take on those pesky UFC types. Like all the other branding bull****, like "TMA", "MMA" and such, "anti-grappling" is more of a marketing strategy.

"People" can say what they want. What I am trying to say is that fighting is about action and reaction. So, if someone comes to strike you and you avoid and block, then counter attack, then you have in theory performed an "anti striking" technique. If your adversary tries to grab you, in order to perhaps take you down, and is knocked out by a reactive technique coming from you, then that can be classified as "an anti grappling technique", and that is as far as it goes, but the concept exists.

Fighting is about acting and reacting. The reaction counters the action of your opponent, that is it is an "anti" action, to his action. That is all I am trying to get across to people here, together with the fact that authentic TCMA practice takes into account the grappling scenario!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course, but those who learn shotokan the way it was meant to be learned have a better chance against a grappler then those who have learned it in a Mcdojo, and in a one dimensional manner.

By "the way it was meant to be learned" I assume you mean cross trained with Judo or another grappling art?
Right?
Because you know that is HOW it was MEANT to be learned, and this not only from Funakoshi's son, but the majority of 1st generation students that were NOT selling the "JKA".

[Hardwork108]

By "the way it was meant to be learned" I assume you mean cross trained with Judo or another grappling art?
Right?
Because you know that is HOW it was MEANT to be learned, and this not only from Funakoshi's son, but the majority of 1st generation students that were NOT selling the "JKA".

Even the ORIGINAL JKA training had more scope and variety than what one can see nowadays.

From the interviews that I have read with the great Shotokan masters, I have learned that a lot of them (probably, not all) started with judo, and then abandoned it in favor once they discovered Shotokan.

Having said that, IMHO, judo can be considered as relevant cross training for karatekas, just like Shuai jiao would be for Kung fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even the ORIGINAL JKA training had more scope and variety than what one can see nowadays.

From the interviews that I have read with the great Shotokan masters, I have learned that a lot of them (probably, not all) started with judo, and then abandoned it in favor once they discovered Shotokan.

Having said that, IMHO, judo can be considered as relevant cross training for karatekas, just like Shuai jiao would be for Kung fu.

I would think that "abandoned" Judo is a rather harsh thing to say, stopped competitive judo, yes, but abandoned?

[Hardwork108]

I would think that "abandoned" Judo is a rather harsh thing to say, stopped competitive judo, yes, but abandoned?

I did not want to sound harsh. What I meant was that some of them stopped training judo in favor of Shotokan. It is possible that the demanding JKA training regiment of the era may not have given them much option.

[Dragonzbane76]

I did not want to sound harsh. What I meant was that some of them stopped training judo in favor of Shotokan. It is possible that the demanding JKA training regiment of the era may not have given them much option.

:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

:rolleyes:

Confused, I see.....LOL!

I see that you find any conversation relating to the TMAs very confusing and straining on your two neurons, but nevermind, I am sure that your punch bag still loves you.....LOL!

I guess some things never change....:D

[Dragonzbane76]

Confused, I see.....LOL!

I see that you find any conversation relating to the TMAs very confusing and straining on your two neurons, but nevermind, I am sure that your punch bag still loves you.....LOL!

I guess some things never change....

nope just following your lead after posting the same after mine. ;)

[m1k3]

I agree, and I have never said that Kung fu is wrestling art. However, it does cover the scenario, in that it does have techniques to prevent an exponent from going down, and in some cases it has ground techniques, just in case. Are they wrestling techniques? No, but they will have some grappling elements (Chin-na/Kum na), together with striking ones. Can they make it work against a ground fighter? Yes, and NO, depending on a given STREET FIGHT situation. I am not talking about tournaments, which are different, even though they have great merit as well.



Yes, but where, in the street or the ring? I ask this because even grapplers sometimes don' t want to go to the ground in a street fight.

Having said that, even a grappler that has not experienced interaction with strikers, may be able to get in and throw and defeat a striker.

The opposite can be true too, even if the striker is a one dimensional , strike only, fighter.



Of course, but those who learn shotokan the way it was meant to be learned have a better chance against a grappler then those who have learned it in a Mcdojo, and in a one dimensional manner.

What I am saying, have always have said is that the TCMAs are not as bland and one dimensional that some of the former Mcdojo-ist, MMA-ists here would have us believe, and that a complete training in them will give you a potent weapons to fight at all ranges, not necessarily specialize you in all of them, of course.

This is the heart of the problem. Hardwork, you can practice all the skills you want for keeping to your feet against a grappler, but until you start practicing against grapplers what you are doing is untested and unproven.

And it works both ways. In my submission grappling practice we do a lot of work on how to use your grappling skills in an MMA environment against striking. But, since I don't take any of the MMA classes my anti-striking skills are untested and unproven. I have faith that the techniques can work because my class mates who compete in MMA have used the successfully there, but I would be a fool to believe they would work for me without my training in that environment.

I do know one part of my training that has prepared me for multiple opponents. It is my weight lifting skills. I would use my "pick up heavy things and throw it at them until I get a chance to run or stomp them" fu. :eek: Functional and well tested. Even chimps in the wild have mastered this technique. But I guess that's all you can expect from a knuckle headed grappler. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everything must be tested, until then it is on THEORY that it MAY work.
Now, you can test things vs guys that don't know how to fight and when those things work, to whatever degree that they may work, you can assume they will work VS someoen who does know how to fight.
But we have ALL seen the result of that.
Fact is, testing something VS highly skilled people makes you a better fighter, period.
If you don't do that, you have NO IDEA if it will work and are basing it on ASSumptions.

[Hardwork108]

This is the heart of the problem. Hardwork, you can practice all the skills you want for keeping to your feet against a grappler, but until you start practicing against grapplers what you are doing is untested and unproven.
What you say is logical, and would indicate cross testing, rather than necessarily cross training. Cross testing, is something that Sanjuro advocates as well.


And it works both ways. In my submission grappling practice we do a lot of work on how to use your grappling skills in an MMA environment against striking. But, since I don't take any of the MMA classes my anti-striking skills are untested and unproven. I have faith that the techniques can work because my class mates who compete in MMA have used the successfully there, but I would be a fool to believe they would work for me without my training in that environment.
Again, what you say makes sense. The question is what environment are you aiming for. I personally have no interest in competing. So, the invironment that I train for is the street. I am not discounting the relevance of contact competitions for the street arena, but one cannot discount the relevance of traditional kung fu training for the street either.

Unfortunately, many "kung fu" practitioners here do exactly that, largely based on Mcdojo experience, and incomplete, if any, knowledge of authentic TCMA methodologies regarding actual combat training.


I do know one part of my training that has prepared me for multiple opponents. It is my weight lifting skills. I would use my "pick up heavy things and throw it at them until I get a chance to run or stomp them" fu. :eek:

I am finally beginning to understand our forum colleague, Frost's obsession with Olympic weight lifting for Internal kung fu training......:D



Functional and well tested. Even chimps in the wild have mastered this technique.

It seem that we have finally found a suitable kung fu style for our friend Dragonzbane...:D



But I guess that's all you can expect from a knuckle headed grappler. :p

Hey, I haven't called you a knucklehead, have I?:confused:

A lot of what you say is logical and makes sense.

Defining someone as a knucklehead is not related to the MA that they practice, but to their behavior.

[Dragonzbane76]

then by definition you would be an idiot. :) wow thanks for the ensight.

[Hardwork108]

nope just following your lead.........

...And so you should. Good to know that you are finally recognizing that I am the one who leads, and that you will always be a mere follower.......

[Hardwork108]

then by definition you would be an idiot. :) wow thanks for the ensight.

Stick around and one day you may even get an insight.....LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

...And so you should. Good to know that you are finally recognizing that I am the one who leads, and that you will always be a mere follower.......
__________________

haha leader? your leadership is next to hitler and david k. (waco) serving flavored kool-aid this week in your basement? Your a wack job, a total loser, that has the only outlet of masturbation to pics of David R.

Sorry mr. carpetbagger I walk to the beat of my own drum.

[Dragonzbane76]

Stick around and one day you may even get an insight.....LOL!

and one day maybe you'll not be an idiot. (but i'm sure no one is holding there breath for that).

[Hardwork108]

(but i'm sure no one is holding there breath for that).

That is because most of you have never practiced proper chi kung in your respective Mcdojos.....LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

That is because most of you have never practiced proper chi kung in your respective Mcdojos.....LOL!

chi kung internal B.S. can't help with idiocy as you demonstrate everytime you say something.

[Hardwork108]

chi kung internal B.S. can't help with idiocy as you demonstrate everytime you say something.
It would however help you to truly understand the TCMA methodologies that you and your minute brain see as "idiocy"! LOL

[Dragonzbane76]

It would however help you to truly understand the TCMA methodologies that you and your minute brain see as "idiocy"! LOL

It's not hard to define idiot, look in the dictionary your pic is listed, listen to your statements you see idiot very clearly.

Your like the village idiot around here. No one takes you seriously, you've at one point or another just randomly insulted most around here. Paranoid and living in your own world, yep village idiot. I bet on tuesdays you wave your pen!s to traffic in front of your home. :p

[KC Elbows]

By the power vested in me by vbulletin forums, I now pronounce you man and wife.

[Dragonzbane76]

By the power vested in me by vbulletin forums, I now pronounce you man and wife.


haha seriously i just hate the guy that's all. :)

[Hardwork108]

By the power vested in me by vbulletin forums, I now pronounce you man and wife.

:eek:

KC, for god's sake don´t give him any ideas. His constant and sweaty man-grappling training has already resulted in half of his posts being hom0 themed. Please don't encourage him any further.

I am finally beginning to realize what they mean about ground grappling being REALISTIC!!!!!:eek:




haha seriously i just hate the guy that's all. :)

Hate is a negative emotion. I would suggest you admire people who are superior to you intellectually, and not hate them.

Having said that, let me stress that I meant you should admire me in the intellectual sense and not the usual MMA Knucklehead sweaty man-grappling way....:D

[Dragonzbane76]

Hate is a negative emotion. I would suggest you admire people who are superior to you intellectually, and not hate them. nope just don't like you. again with your superiority complex... you really should seek help... your social skills are next to that of a dog. :rolleyes:

[jesper]

hmm why reinvent the wheel.
If you want to learn how to grapple go look at what the grappling experts do and add it to your fighting skills.

[Hardwork108]

nope just don't like you. again with your superiority complex... you really should seek help... your social skills are next to that of a dog. :rolleyes:

Better a "dog", then a Pu$$y, like you.

Now seriously Dragonzbane, this is the Wing Chun forum, while this is an actual Martial arts discussion. Meaning that since your knowledge of Wing Chun is in par with your knowledge of advanced astro physics, why don't you then limit your contributions to other threads, and STOP TROLLING the few genuine MA discussions in existance in this forum!

Take your None TCMA hate campaign somewhere else!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

Now seriously Dragonzbane, this is the Wing Chun forum, while this is an actual Martial arts discussion. Meaning that since your knowledge of Wing Chun is in par with your knowledge of advanced astro physics, why don't you then limit your contributions to other threads, and STOP TROLLING the few genuine MA discussions in existance in this forum!

haha are you serious, the WC forum, nah they don't argue modern concepts here....LOL.......... never seen anyone bring up any points about MMA or modern fighting. your an IDIOT>.......lol.........man....... what freakin rock did you crawl out from under? genuine MA dicsussion on here..........??? you wanna take a pole on that?

So you wanna pick this up from down on the Off topic and close this? :) up to you.

[Hardwork108]

haha are you serious, the WC forum, nah they don't argue modern concepts here....LOL.......... never seen anyone bring up any points about MMA or modern fighting. your an IDIOT>.......lol.........man....... what freakin rock did you crawl out from under? genuine MA dicsussion on here..........??? you wanna take a pole on that?

So you wanna pick this up from down on the Off topic and close this? :) up to you.

You do realize that if you continue your constant stalking and disruption of threads, you are going to get banned, don't you?

By the way, I am this close to putting you on ignore, which I have already done with Kansuke and Knifefighter, two of your clueless MMA colleagues here!

It is up to you!

[Hardwork108]

Actually, I have changed my mind, and I am going to put you on ignore as of now!

I guess I have to be cruel to be kind, as this way, you will have other reasons to live, and will perhaps get yourself a life, outside of your clueless MMA training and disruption of TCMA threads, in a KUNG FU FORUM!

Adios Mr Troll!

[Knifefighter]

You do realize that if you continue your constant stalking and disruption of threads, you are going to get banned, don't you?

By the way, I am this close to putting you on ignore, which I have already done with Kansuke and Knifefighter, two of your clueless MMA colleagues here!

It is up to you!

It's always great when the clueless people put you on ignore. Then you can tell them how clueless they are without having them try to vainly argue back that they aren't really clueless.

[Dragonzbane76]

You do realize that if you continue your constant stalking and disruption of threads, you are going to get banned, don't you?

By the way, I am this close to putting you on ignore, which I have already done with Kansuke and Knifefighter, two of your clueless MMA colleagues here!

It is up to you!




Actually, I have changed my mind, and I am going to put you on ignore as of now!

I guess I have to be cruel to be kind, as this way, you will have other reasons to live, and will perhaps get yourself a life, outside of your clueless MMA training and disruption of TCMA threads, in a KUNG FU FORUM!

Adios Mr Troll!

adios Mr. douch. :)

may the door hit your a$$ on the way out.

TENACITY!