Awesome Mook Jong Demonstration

[jeetsao]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQE

[t_niehoff]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/0/8/polar-bear-face-palm_thumbnail1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/showimage.php%3Fi%3D50905%26catid%3Dnewimages&usg=__aYcF8N7om5NmREOc8vBWeJebIrU=&h=457&w=489&sz=27&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=jD-KQ5F5TKbaoM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfacepalm%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D1 024%26bih%3D587%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C619&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=558&vpy=249&dur=1002&hovh=198&hovw=211&tx=109&ty=115&ei=87WbTMabCImlnQeA1NHxDw&oei=gbWbTNvGKZD9nAf-rcGRDw&esq=18&page=2&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:15&biw=1024&bih=587

[sanjuro_ronin]

That sucked.
Jackie chan's is still the best !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMYCAICTao

[Hardwork108]

I must agree with the two previous posters, the man looked as if he had soft hands and was fast, but his roots were all over the place, among other things.

Anyway, to each his own.......

[jeetsao]

True rooting is rooting while moving. You can't see the root. You have to feel it.

[shawchemical]

True rooting is rooting while moving. You can't see the root. You have to feel it.

It was bad. Very bad.

[Phil Redmond]

Very impressive speed. My observation is that he is not covering his head (uppergate).
Upper and middle gates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxQlv7a5l3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPxNOsbVJI
Now I see lots of people doing the forms both empty hand and with the Do as if they are fighting little people. Now anyone who knows an inkling about fighting knows that most people are head hunters. So why not train to protect your head?
I learned the tan mid-level like most of you. But I'd rather protect my head with what some would call a high Tan, Wu or whatever than to get hit in the face. I still can't understand why people don't get it and still practice only a mid level tan in SLT. There is not amount of theory that can convince me not to cover my head. Plus, it's milliseconds faster to have your hands high and drop them than to have them low and try to cover the upper gate. Why? because you have to factor in gravity and the weight of you arm. It's milliseconds faster to drop a limb than to raise it.

[shawchemical]

Very impressive speed. My observation is that he is not covering his head (uppergate).
Upper and middle gates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxQlv7a5l3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPxNOsbVJI
Now I see lots of people doing the forms both empty hand and with the Do as if they are fighting little people. Now anyone who knows an inkling about fighting knows that most people are head hunters. So why not train to protect your head?
I learned the tan mid-level like most of you. But I'd rather protect my head with what some would call a high Tan, Wu or whatever than to get hit in the face. I still can't understand why people don't get it and still practice only a mid level tan in SLT. There is not amount of theory that can convince me not to cover my head. Plus, it's milliseconds faster to have your hands high and drop them than to have them low and try to cover the upper gate. Why? because you have to factor in gravity and the weight of you arm. It's milliseconds faster to drop a limb than to raise it.

Its because of the poor habits it creates. The form is not the place to be doing that, as the positions should always remain neutral. The idea of the form is to be training the elbow to drive the movement, and to have it move in a straight line. It is also to make us recognise that there is no need to block that which will miss us anyway. The point is that a wu sau in front of your face does not have the structural stability to deflect much, and it definitely cannot cover the ribs at the same time. A wu sau in front of your face will result most often in you getting hit in the face by your own hand.

AS you were showing, drills are the time and place to adapt the height of each technique to the man you are fighting.

[Hardwork108]

True rooting is rooting while moving.

True rooting is wether you are still, or moving.


You can't see the root. You have to feel it.

One can see good rooting, and even more so, bad rooting. I am sorry, different lineages have different standards for rooting, specially nowadays, so we can leave it there.

There is a Wing Chun instructor in this very thread who thinks the video was good, so different strokes, but I still say that I did not see kung fu rooting there, hence was a lacking in body unity, and that is my humble opinion.

[t_niehoff]

Very impressive speed. My observation is that he is not covering his head (uppergate).
Upper and middle gates


It's not about "covering gates". If I control you and your bridges, I am "covered".



Now I see lots of people doing the forms both empty hand and with the Do as if they are fighting little people.


The forms aren't representative of fighting, they are only texts to the tools of WCK.



Now anyone who knows an inkling about fighting knows that most people are head hunters. So why not train to protect your head?


That makes very good sense if you are a free-movement fighter like a boxer (which is why their guard does cover their head). However, if your method is control the opponent while striking them (attached fighting), then your control provides the "cover."

BTW, it is very inconsistent of you to talk about the need to cover your head when the guard you teach doesn't cover the head!



I learned the tan mid-level like most of you. But I'd rather protect my head with what some would call a high Tan, Wu or whatever than to get hit in the face.


This is because you see those actions as "blocks" -- but they are not. They are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent). The contact provides protection.



I still can't understand why people don't get it and still practice only a mid level tan in SLT.


Because some of us aren't practicing WCK kickboxing. There are very good reasons for learning to tan with your ELBOW down and in and why doing what TWC does is from a contact standpoint utter nonsense.



There is not amount of theory that can convince me not to cover my head. Plus, it's milliseconds faster to have your hands high and drop them than to have them low and try to cover the upper gate. Why? because you have to factor in gravity and the weight of you arm. It's milliseconds faster to drop a limb than to raise it.

This is because you learned Cheung's WCK kickboxing and see things from a nonWCK perspective.

WCK's method is to join to your opponent, cut-off his offensive capability, and destroy his body structure (so he can't launch) while striking him.

[k gledhill]

the 'elbows' of tan ..fok..wu...are all low and for developing good striking habits we use...chisao is done low too for the same reasons...dummy should further this idea, not have arms high

elbow & wrists point to opponents jaw striking

the dummy isn't 1:1 applications

doing it with the right idea is key , not how fast or how high or low etc...if your just doing poses and looking for 1:1 you'll end up in a mess.

the dummy arms are situated so the elbow region is used to make angles and contact to maintain alignment while cycling through strike/ defense / strike defence partnerships....one arm always makes an attack while the other prepares to make a strike.

abstract, but very clever idea. how to maintain attacks in every action for % in your favour.

[t_niehoff]

the dummy arms are situated so the elbow region is used to make angles and contact to maintain alignment while cycling through strike/ defense / strike defence partnerships....one arm always makes an attack while the other strikes.

abstract, but very clever idea. how to maintain attacks in every action for % in your favour.

The "neck pulling hand", the po pai's, the double palms, the single pak's, the bong saos and so on illustrate that it's not about "one arm always attacks while the other strikes."

[Phil Redmond]

It's not about "covering gates".
It is to me





BTW, it is very inconsistent of you to talk about the need to cover your head when the guard you teach doesn't cover the head!
An unfounded assumption The guard I teach DOES cover the head. Anyone here who has learned from me knows that. Now you might see a pose where my hands are low for a photo so as not to cover my face or I'm just being lazy. I teach that the lead hand covers the face and the rear hand covers the solar plexus. You are showing me more and more how little you know about what we do.

[Phil Redmond]

We did teach a low guard for the Lei Tai fights because the guys vision was impaired because of the cage headgear. We told them to keep their head down so they could see. NO other time would I teach that. Well, unless it was for a setup.

[SAAMAG]

I must agree with the two previous posters, the man looked as if he had soft hands and was fast, but his roots were all over the place, among other things.

Anyway, to each his own.......

Agreed. No body unity, the hands and feet were disconnected and moving alone. You could see where his weight was on the balls of the feet and where he was shifting, but that shifting wasn't consistent with power generation.

The blindfold is a nice trick for the newbies, but only illustrates that he's memorized his dummy.

Overall...training to fail. Nothing there will help him in a real fight.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQE

A Muk Jong video where more than half of the vid is textual gobbledeegook just makes it all that more frustrating when we finally see the "action".

This vid was actually the final drop in the bucket that made me realize to what extent the Wing Chun community obsesses over theoretical physics, structural engineering, static anatomy and "sensitivity" :rolleyes: at the expense of fight sense and functionality. Sadly, you're not the only one who seems to think that "Wing Chun Talking Hands" equals writing skill.

[k gledhill]

The "neck pulling hand", the po pai's, the double palms, the single pak's, the bong saos and so on illustrate that it's not about "one arm always attacks while the other strikes."

clearly thats not always possible...but it is the primary goal to use man sao & wu sao...lead attack + rear attack ...If I need to recreate space to attack I po-pai you just enough to strike again.
The toima pak sao is to regain an attacking line , relative to your line of entry, right or left...I, Ideally should be able to strike you with the same individual pak hand, being in the correct angle to your arm position etc...

Trying to split hairs to make a case dont cut it here dude...;)

bil gee shows how to parry a guys wailing punches with one arm....how to get out of a wrist grab with arm...

[CFT]

What was the point of that compression dummy form? Pretty d@mning when the dummy barely moves when hit. Footwork was a bit stumble stumble.

[jeetsao]

A few observations:
The first couple of posts are so without substance that I would only comment that holding Jackie Chan up as the pinnacle of Mook Jong work is in a word, ridiculous

The video under discussion is simply a single snapshot in a very large picture album of training tools. The jong height can be adjusted from low to high to train the different bridges. The set is trained very slowly for posture and structure, in reverse, at normal speed as stated in the text and at accelerated speed for the reasons, again stated in the text. The lower setting promotes sinking and the development of rooting.

Since "compression" is the goal in this form, striking the jong hard is not the point and in fact may be counter productive.

Hardwork108 "One can see good rooting, and even more so, bad rooting" I maintain that you can see structure and posture that lead to effective rooting, but you have to feel to be sure that it is really there or not there.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108 "One can see good rooting, and even more so, bad rooting" I maintain that you can see structure and posture that lead to effective rooting, but you have to feel to be sure that it is really there or not there.

And I maintain that if you see bad structure then there won't be anything there to "feel". I did not see any great potency (power) there either from the Dummy's "feedback".

That is not saying that the man in the video cannot fight, I am saying that based on what I have learned, he did not have proper rooting.

If you disagree, then that is fine too.:)

[Graham H]

..............one of the worst things Ive ever seen in VT!!!!!!:confused:

[Knifefighter]

Yet another example of another useless part of WC training. That's a perfect demonstration of how to teach yourself to "fight" with absolutely nothing that is related to real fighting.

[RedJunkRebel]

It's interesting to see how drastically different our opinions of this video are from one other. It is particularly defining of how our goals and intentions in training shape what we consider proper. Considering this proves how training with one another can have an real digression upon each others goals.

[SAAMAG]

I think what it proves more so, is who has fought and who has not.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Considering this proves how training with one another can have an real digression upon each others goals.

So.... you're saying it's bad to train with different styles?

Also, my goal is to develop fighting skill. What's yours?

[Phil Redmond]

. . .The point is that a wu sau in front of your face does not have the structural stability to deflect much, and it definitely cannot cover the ribs at the same time. A wu sau in front of your face will result most often in you getting hit in the face by your own hand. . . .
You can't cover your ribs and your face with the same hand. You have to do one or the other. The uppergate Wu does have structure. I'll make a clip today in class explaining what I mean.

[RedJunkRebel]

I think what it proves more so, is who has fought and who has not.

LOL. Saying the man in this video has never fought is like saying Tiger Woods has never been with a woman. Make no mistake, he is among the very best Wing Chun practitioners in the world.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .The point is that a wu sau in front of your face does not have the structural stability to deflect much, and it definitely cannot cover the ribs at the same time. A wu sau in front of your face will result most often in you getting hit in the face by your own hand. . . .
We throw full power punches with the puncher using a forearm pad with the padded part on the "Yin" side of the forearm. This protects the puncher.
Wu Sao explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3s2pxc6Tiw

[RedJunkRebel]

Very impressive speed. My observation is that he is not covering his head (uppergate).
Upper and middle gates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxQlv7a5l3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPxNOsbVJI
Now I see lots of people doing the forms both empty hand and with the Do as if they are fighting little people. Now anyone who knows an inkling about fighting knows that most people are head hunters. So why not train to protect your head?
I learned the tan mid-level like most of you. But I'd rather protect my head with what some would call a high Tan, Wu or whatever than to get hit in the face. I still can't understand why people don't get it and still practice only a mid level tan in SLT. There is not amount of theory that can convince me not to cover my head. Plus, it's milliseconds faster to have your hands high and drop them than to have them low and try to cover the upper gate. Why? because you have to factor in gravity and the weight of you arm. It's milliseconds faster to drop a limb than to raise it.

Hey Phil - Considering that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQEis) is at close range, for us, it is more important to maintain a heavy elbow for solidity and power. This approach focuses on developing a substantial connection with the ground and a solid structure. If someone comes high, we go in for the center (or the origin of movement) instead of raising our hands high (which we would consider chasing hands).

[SAAMAG]

LOL. Saying the man in this video has never fought is like saying Tiger Woods has never been with a woman. Make no mistake, he is among the very best Wing Chun practitioners in the world.

Well then based on this video...that's like saying you're the biggest fish in a pond full of guppies.

Besides, the statement didn't imply that the person in the video didn't fight, but the ones who are commenting on it as being somehow impressive.

There are universal truths to people who train to fight, regardless of style.

[jeetsao]

Yet another example of another useless part of WC training. That's a perfect demonstration of how to teach yourself to "fight" with absolutely nothing that is related to real fighting.

You would then have to agree that skipping rope, road work, MMA fighters hitting a truck tire with a sledge hammer, chopping wood, and a host of other training exercises have no value to the sport fighter since they have nothing to do with fighting. ???????????????? You obviously have no understanding of the attributes that are trained on the jong. Perhaps if you would take the time to read the text that precedes the video you would gain a little understanding about this training method.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Phil - Considering that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQEis) is at close range, for us, it is more important to maintain a heavy elbow for solidity and power. This approach focuses on developing a substantial connection with the ground and a solid structure. If someone comes high, we go in for the center (or the origin of movement) instead of raising our hands high (which we would consider chasing hands).
Opinions vary. Fighters are taught to cover their heads. Covering your head isn't chasing hands. Try sparring someone without covering your head. You may hit him in the center but you'll get cracked in the head. You can develop the body for punches and kicks but not the head.
The bottom line is that you must do what works for you. I know I do.
Notice how "fighters" cover their heads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWV7xjfgKro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHdOyLJxtYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAugwPLV92k
But of course anyone who has done sparring or competed knows that. ;)

[RedJunkRebel]

Opinions vary. Fighters are taught to cover their heads. Covering your head isn't chasing hands. The bottom line is that you must do what works for you. I know I do.

Phil - No attack on your methods intended, my friend. I realize that our approach goes a little further than most do in considering what we consider chasing hands. Also consider that at least in our approach, forms such as this video should look different than sparring as their purpose is developmental.

[SAAMAG]

You would then have to agree that skipping rope, road work, MMA fighters hitting a truck tire with a sledge hammer, chopping wood, and a host of other training exercises have no value to the sport fighter since they have nothing to do with fighting. ???????????????? You obviously have no understanding of the attributes that are trained on the jong. Perhaps if you would take the time to read the text that precedes the video you would gain a little understanding about this training method.

Those things you mentioned are to condition your energy systems...which directly affect your ABILITY to continue fighting. You have your high output short duration, moderate output moderate duration, and low output long duration. Each of those conditioning exercises work those three systems. Those exercises aren't part of a curriculum per say, nor are they necessary to "learn to fight" but rather to prepare the instrument for use (your body).

So with the wing chun dummy, applying the offensive and defensive techniques ("application") of the system in a non-realistic and haphazard way does what exactly?

Because as I know it, the whole purpose of the dummy was to train the neijia ("internal") system, not to learn how to apply the techniques...which means that creating variations in the form (like a compression form) does nothing. If you're trying to apply energy, you can do that with a wall bag, heavy bag, pads, and the like and do so in the same fashion that you would in real application.

Why would you want to create muscle memory with something that will hinder your ability to fight when there are better methods available that will allow you to reach your goal while not creating bad habits?

[RedJunkRebel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQE

It is also important to make note that practicing the form this quickly is only for those that have already put years into training the dummy slowly and for structure. Additionally, it shouldn't be practiced this way all of the time. However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient. This efficiency and level of comfort at this insane speed creates a certain smoothness, stability and accuracy through the transitions from position to position - - creating security during your most vulnerable moments.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil - No attack on your methods intended, my friend. I realize that our approach goes a little further than most do in considering what we consider chasing hands. For us, controlling the origin of movement negates everything. If it can't be the center line, it is the origin of the energy on the limb that is attacking us. Also consider that at least in our approach, forms such as this video should look different than sparring as their purpose is developmental.
Understood. But we believe that a form should be as close to the real application as possible.
I can point to fighting apps in all of our forms. So the form and it's application is developmental.
I'm working on a video explaining the applications in our forms.

[SAAMAG]

It is also important to make note that practicing the form this quickly is only for those that have already put years into training the dummy slowly and for structure. Additionally, it shouldn't be practiced this way all of the time. However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient. This efficiency and level of comfort at this insane speed creates a certain smoothness, stability and accuracy through the transitions from position to position - - creating security during your most vulnerable moments.

Laughing at the fact that you think that is insane speed.

Efficiency...how does it make your moves more efficient? Does it reduce the amount of effort for a given result? Does it enable you to reduce the steps it takes for a result?

It actually reduces your ability to work with a live partner because your body is memorizing THE DUMMY's DIMENSIONS AND SPATIAL ORIENTATION. This does not translate to real life. This is illustrated by the stupid blindfold in the video. You think that if he had a blindfold working against a skilled opponent that he'd be able to do anything of the sort? Hell no he wouldn't.

Why is it so hard to let go of old, outdated methods?? If you want to hit the dummy that's fine, just don't make it out to provide you with something it does not.

[RedJunkRebel]

How does it make your moves more efficient? Does it reduce the amount of effort for a given result? Does it enable you to reduce the steps it takes for a result? Yes and yes. Practicing the dummy at this speed develops your body to reduce the amount of effort. As you work on getting your speed down to less than 2 minutes (90 seconds in this video), you must move more efficiently in order to get to each position within the compressed time.

[RedJunkRebel]

This method of training the dummy at this speed is anything but old and outdated. In fact, that's why its so controversial to so many of the old school Wing Chun community. It goes against the traditional methods of how to train the dummy yet in a way that doesn't disregard the completeness of Wing Chun by adding other arts to it.

Although there can never be a substitute for realistic sparring, Karl has found that training the dummy form at this insane speed is an undeniable advancement in making practitioners better... faster.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

You would then have to agree that skipping rope, road work, MMA fighters hitting a truck tire with a sledge hammer, chopping wood, and a host of other training exercises have no value to the sport fighter since they have nothing to do with fighting. ???????????????? You obviously have no understanding of the attributes that are trained on the jong. Perhaps if you would take the time to read the text that precedes the video you would gain a little understanding about this training method.



It is also important to make note that practicing the form this quickly is only for those that have already put years into training the dummy slowly and for structure. Additionally, it shouldn't be practiced this way all of the time. However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient. This efficiency and level of comfort at this insane speed creates a certain smoothness, stability and accuracy through the transitions from position to position - - creating security during your most vulnerable moments.



This method of training the dummy at this speed is anything but old and outdated. In fact, that's why its so controversial to so many of the old school Wing Chun community. It goes against the traditional methods of how to train the dummy yet in a way that doesn't disregard the completeness of Wing Chun by adding other arts to it.

Although there can never be a substitute for realistic sparring, Karl has found that training the dummy form at this insane speed is an undeniable advancement in making practitioners better... faster.

Holy Time Warp, Kato! What hole have you guys crawled out of???

You guys should hook up with Stan from the other thread. He believes in Santa too.

[t_niehoff]

Yes and yes. Practicing the dummy at this speed develops your body to reduce the amount of effort. As you work on getting your speed down to less than 2 minutes (90 seconds in this video), you must move more efficiently in order to get to each position within the compressed time.

There is nothing wrong with practicing moving quickly, and there are traditional ways of doing that. For example, here is Sum Nung practicing the "air dummy" (doing the dummy set without the dummy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4TkleB5hw

However, the main "purpose" of dummy training is to teach you body leverage and the ability to express that through your bridges (that's why you are working with a solid, heavy post). Hence the kuit, Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung (the dummy is to train your power).

[jeetsao]

There is nothing wrong with practicing moving quickly, and there are traditional ways of doing that. For example, here is Sum Nung practicing the "air dummy" (doing the dummy set without the dummy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4TkleB5hw

However, the main "purpose" of dummy training is to teach you body leverage and the ability to express that through your bridges (that's why you are working with a solid, heavy post). Hence the kuit, Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung (the dummy is to train your power).

The first couple of days we had knee "jerk" reactions to the video. Now the discussions have some substance.
If the "air dummy" has value and I would not argue against it, then substituting the jong for "air" could keep the movements "honest" as to position, precision and accuracy. No one is suggesting that we abandon the traditional training on the Jong. This simply supplements it.

[t_niehoff]

The first couple of days we had knee "jerk" reactions to the video. Now the discussions have some substance.
If the "air dummy" has value and I would not argue against it, then substituting the jong for "air" could keep the movements "honest" as to position, precision and accuracy. No one is suggesting that we abandon the traditional training on the Jong. This simply supplements it.

Why don't boxers use their heavy bag to work their "speed"? Because that's not making good use of the training apparatus (which is "designed" for something else).

How do you know whether your WCK movement/actions have "correct position" and are accurate/precise? ONLY pressure can tell you that. The dummy permits you to practice with pressure without a live partner -- because with the dummy you are loading your body leverage into the dummy and if your bridges aren't "correct" they won't be able to do it effectively (to use an analogy, it is like pushing a stalled car, the heaviness of the car/dummy forces you to align to get optimal body). When you move very quickly and aren't loading into the dummy, you aren't practicing this and there is no "check" on your alignment or your precision or your position.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQE

Awesome? :rolleyes:

I have seen many attempts at this sort of practice with the wooden man and have to say that I can't find any real purpose behind it.

I'm always willing to learn more though, and some comments here are interesting. But, for someone who takes much pride in his wooden man knowledge I can also see why this clip became a target for many!

I was only going through some sets of the 108 last night with a bruv and if you do understand the exact purpose of the form you just wouldn't practise it like the clip at all. For each precise hand positioning there is an equally important step and stance and I could not see evidence of that balance in the clip.

There is a massive risk of developing a 'paper hand' with this sort of training. As impressive as the speed is...

[jeetsao]

The purpose is explained in the text of the video. This is simply one way to use the jong. By no means should you abandon the traditional way of training it. Both are useful.

[t_niehoff]

The purpose is explained in the text of the video. This is simply one way to use the jong. By no means should you abandon the traditional way of training it. Both are useful.

The explanation on the video was pseudo-scientific (to sound knowledgeable) bullsh1t.

[jeetsao]

Any specifics in the text that you don't understand? Maybe I can help.

[t_niehoff]

Any specifics in the text that you don't understand? Maybe I can help.

I understand what he is saying, it's just that what he is saying is WRONG. Practicing as he does on the jong won't make your "technique" faster -- it will only make your practice on the jong faster. The jong will not and cannot develop fighting skills or WCK skills or attributes (why people can do the jong their whole lives and not develop any significant skill). It is a learning device, not a training device. And it is obvious that Godwin doesn't understand what the dummy is "designed" to teach you.

[jeetsao]

Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.

“As time and space are compressed the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop “dow lik” struggle power and eventually lead to “tom da” or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly. Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.”


It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.
When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner. You also can’t help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.

Have you considered that “GODWIN” does understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach and has simply expanded its use?

What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.

[k gledhill]

I understand what he is saying, it's just that what he is saying is WRONG. Practicing as he does on the jong won't make your "technique" faster -- it will only make your practice on the jong faster. The jong will not and cannot develop fighting skills or WCK skills or attributes (why people can do the jong their whole lives and not develop any significant skill). It is a learning device, not a training device. And it is obvious that Godwin doesn't understand what the dummy is "designed" to teach you.

neither do you Terence, so not so quick :D you have to be developing the same idea you started with....:D and we all see from your posts you dont understand that one.

[t_niehoff]

Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.


Yes, I make that distinction because there is a natural distinction between learning to swim and developing your swimming skills (becoming better at a skill you already know).

OK, let's examine the text. :)



“As time and space are compressed . . ."


How are "time and space" compressed? Is this some sort of Einsteinian phenomena that I am not aware of? For me, time always runs at the same rate, a foot is always 12 inches -- they never seem to compress.



". . . the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop “dow lik” struggle power and eventually lead to “tom da” or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly."


The movements of WCK aren't simply "linear" and "circular" -- all lines and circles. Nor does what Godwin writes make the least bit of sense (how does moving more quickly lead to "greedy hitting"?). This is all bullsh1t.



"Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.”


No it doesn't -- I can make my movement much smaller and still slow it down. And making movement smaller can have a deleterious effect -- particularly if it switches from a gross motor action to a fine motor action.



It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.


Do you think poor practice will develop skill and attributes? That you can just repeat anything and it will develop skill and attributes? You develop fighting skills from practicing the movement/techniques in fighting, not with a wooden dummy.



When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner.


No, it won't. You can practice however you want and however long you want on the wooden dummy and it will not mean you will be able to do it in fighting.



You also can’t help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.


Sure, but you won't learn how to or develop that working on a wooden dummy.



Have you considered that “GODWIN” does understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach and has simply expanded its use?


Yes, I considered -- and rejected that idea.



What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.

Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn't he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide "additional benefits"? Or, are these just imagined benefits?

[t_niehoff]

neither do you Terence, so not so quick :D you have to be developing the same idea you started with....:D and we all see from your posts you dont understand that one.

It's not about "ideas" or "developing ideas."

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him, and EVERYTHING in WCK (forms, drills, kuit, faat, etc.) is consistent with that approach.

Bayer's "idea" that everything in WCK is a tan/jum punch is not what other branches of WCK teach, not what Yip Man taught, and not what WSL taught.

[Phil Redmond]

It's not about "ideas" or "developing ideas."

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him, and EVERYTHING in WCK (forms, drills, kuit, faat, etc.) is consistent with that approach.

Bayer's "idea" that everything in WCK is a tan/jum punch is not what other branches of WCK teach, not what Yip Man taught, and not what WSL taught.
How do you know what Yip Man or WSL taught? You weren't there. Your Wing experience is limited to who? Robert Chu and Hawkins Cheung? I stand corrected If I missed someone. I've studied with way more Wing Chun people than you have and I have more experience in Wing Chun than you. I've even competed using WC.
Until I started working for a Law Firm I trained and taught full time. Yet, I never come off as a know it all like you do. I'm open to interpretation and different ideas. In fact, I'm still learning. Why? because NONE of us knows all there is to know about what the founders thought/taught or who taught what to whom.
No one can know all that Yip Man, WSL or anyone else taught privately.
Unless you're omniscient you can't know either.

[t_niehoff]

How do you know what Yip Man or WSL taught? You weren't there.


We can do it by looking to what THEIR students do and teach.



Your Wing experience is limited to who? Robert Chu and Hawkins Cheung? I stand corrected If I missed someone.


I initially learned Leung Ting's wing tsun, then Cheung's TWC, and then either visited or attended seminars from lots of people before finding and training with Robert. And since that time I've seen even more.



I've studied with way more Wing Chun people than you have and I have more experience in Wing Chun than you. I've even competed using WC.


"Studied with way more WCKa people"? Really. OK. So what? That's like saying you went to more grammar schools than I did. ;)

Yes, you keep SAYING that you competed "using your WCK" but if it is anything like what your students do -- and it will be since you are the one teaching them -- we don't see much WCK, do we?



Until I started working for a Law Firm I trained and taught full time.


Good for you, Phil. In other words, you took people's money for teaching them TWC. And you are proud of that?



Yet, I never come off as a know it all like you do. I'm open to interpretation and different ideas. In fact, I'm still learning. Why? because NONE of us knows all there is to know about what the founders thought/taught or who taught what to whom.


And I'm still learning. In fact, I don't call myself "master" like some people. ;) Or take their money.

But I do think that what our ancestors taught is pretty clear -- all you have to do is compare the older branches of WCK (Gu Lao, YKS, early Yip, older mainland branches, etc.) and you see the commonality.



No one can know all that Yip Man, WSL or anyone else taught privately.
Unless you're omniscient you can't know either.

I understand why this is important for you, Phil, since Cheung CLAIMS to have learned his TWC privately from Yip -- and, you'll say that we can't prove that didn't happen (like we can't prove there isn't a Bigfoot). ;) But we all know that's not true, it's just a marketing story and that TWC is Cheung's own re-tooling, or should I say modification, of what he learned at Yip's school (mainly from his seniors). What Yip taught is easily seen by looking to his students.

[LoneTiger108]

We can do it by looking to what THEIR students do and teach.

Is this really how you decide what Ip Man or any of the elder masters taught?? There is a massive flaw here T :rolleyes:

If I just use Lee Shing as an example and understand that everybodies image of LSWC originates from my Uncle Austin Goh, as he is the more 'famous' commercial teacher, am I right to expect ALL of Lee Shings other students' students to be the same?

Fact is, the world has still to see many of the elder generations and what they can do so your reasoning to me is plain silly :p

[t_niehoff]

Is this really how you decide what Ip Man or any of the elder masters taught?? There is a massive flaw here T :rolleyes:

If I just use Lee Shing as an example and understand that everybodies image of LSWC originates from my Uncle Austin Goh, as he is the more 'famous' commercial teacher, am I right to expect ALL of Lee Shings other students' students to be the same?

Fact is, the world has still to see many of the elder generations and what they can do so your reasoning to me is plain silly :p

You don't understand what I am saying.

If we want to know what some deceased person taught (or how they taught), how can we know except by looking at their students? Of course, students can vary, but by comparing different students from the same teacher, we can see those things in common among all of them (which makes it highly likely they came from the same source). This is why, for example, there are Yip Man signatures (in forms, drills, etc.).

[RedJunkRebel]

Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.

“As time and space are compressed the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop “dow lik” struggle power and eventually lead to “tom da” or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly. Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.”

It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.
When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner. You also can’t help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.

Have you considered that “GODWIN” does understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach and has simply expanded its use?

What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.

Great post. I couldn't agree with you more.

[jeetsao]

Niehoff "Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn't he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide "additional benefits"? Or, are these just imagined benefits?[/QUOTE]


I don't know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a "fight" with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or "fighting" it is about ending a "life or death" encounter as quickly as possible.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Wing Chun is not about sport or "fighting" it is about ending a "life or death" encounter as quickly as possible.

I love this forum.

Endless entertainment.

'Cause, y'know, sport fighting is all about dragging the fight out. :rolleyes:

[jeetsao]

Different rules, mentality, and tools.
But you knew that.

[t_niehoff]

Niehoff "Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn't he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide "additional benefits"? Or, are these just imagined benefits?


I don't know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a "fight" with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or "fighting" it is about ending a "life or death" encounter as quickly as possible.

ROFLOL! "Life or death" encounters? I see, your view then is that WCK doesn't prepare you to fight BUT to prepare you for a "life and death encounter"! Genius. Pure genius.

Tell me, what is the "test" for fighting skill but fighting? Or, are the techniques Mr. Godwin teaches too d3adly to expose sport fighters to?

Yes, I know that you don't know where I am coming from, because you are in the land of fantasy. Isn't it pretty there?

[jeetsao]

So you recognize no difference between self defense and fighting? No difference in a mutually agreed to fight ( with a MMA or Mt guy) and a threat from an aggressor? No difference in the choice of weapons and tactics? Come on. You have to know the difference. There is a list of things not allowed in the cage and an even greater list of those not allowed in MT. But we are a bit off the subject. The original point is that proper jong work will help you develop attributes that make your applications more effective in a real situation. Yes, you still need unrehearsed work with an uncooperative training partner. But just as a boxer does not spar as his only method of training, wing chun offers a number of ways to improve skill, the jong being only one of them.

[jesper]

While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and "street" fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.

[YungChun]

However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient.


I agree if "efficiency" means firing an empty gun as fast as you can..or even a loaded one as fast as you can... More shots fired where no shots hit the target means Jack unless it was simply a contest of speed above everything anything else--that's not what Chun is about. The Jong was never about this kind of focus... That's just Chun basics 101.

Efficiency is based on accomplishing something in particular--in this case a delivery system, but here it delivers nothing.. Faster does not equate to efficiency unless it is a solitary objective..meaning greater speed above all else.. For most of us greater speed above all else equates to poor training..

There is no substance just speed..where compression means as fast as humanly possible, no body unity, no body connection, without which makes this a fast (and strange) dance....

In all honesty it's just goofy and certainly does not translate to application nor showcase any true ability that might otherwise exist.

These strangely obsessive training concoctions are often created to distract and substitute for actual hard core reality based training/fighting....

"Best in the world" Puleeeeese..

Let's see the guy doing something that actually showcases real skill.

[jeetsao]

Good post RJR.

Yungchun
"More shots fired where no shots hit the target means Jack"

You assume they will not hit the target. Not sure why.

[CFT]

The only attribute that compression training shows is speed. He doesn't look stable and he shows no power - the jong barely moves.

So he might be fast, he might hit the target - but what about the power?

[t_niehoff]

So you recognize no difference between self defense and fighting? No difference in a mutually agreed to fight ( with a MMA or Mt guy) and a threat from an aggressor? No difference in the choice of weapons and tactics? Come on. You have to know the difference. There is a list of things not allowed in the cage and an even greater list of those not allowed in MT. But we are a bit off the subject. The original point is that proper jong work will help you develop attributes that make your applications more effective in a real situation. Yes, you still need unrehearsed work with an uncooperative training partner. But just as a boxer does not spar as his only method of training, wing chun offers a number of ways to improve skill, the jong being only one of them.

Self-defense is many things, and one of those things is fighting skill. Fighting skill and attributes are constant (if you can't deal with a punch in the ring, you can't deal with it on the str33t, if you can't go for 10 seconds in the gym, you're not going to last any longer in the str33t), but tactics -- how we choose to use those skills -- vary depending on the circumstances. There is no point even discussing tactics if you don't have the skill and the attributes.

Jong "work" won't develop either fighting skills or fighting attributes. All Mr. Godwin or you need to do is go fight spar and try to USE these skills and attributes you believe your jong training gives you and you will see how mistaken you are. In fact, if you aren't doing that, you have no basis for even making your claim -- as how can you know doing X will develop your skill if you aren't testing to see whether or not it does?

[jeetsao]

While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and "street" fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.

You are correct. But some of us are found in the 1/10 group.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Fact: the worst drivers think they're the best drivers.

[jeetsao]

Self-defense is many things, and one of those things is fighting skill. Fighting skill and attributes are constant (if you can't deal with a punch in the ring, you can't deal with it on the str33t, if you can't go for 10 seconds in the gym, you're not going to last any longer in the str33t), but tactics -- how we choose to use those skills -- vary depending on the circumstances. There is no point even discussing tactics if you don't have the skill and the attributes.



Agree for the most part.




Jong "work" won't develop either fighting skills or fighting attributes. All Mr. Godwin or you need to do is go fight spar and try to USE these skills and attributes you believe your jong training gives you and you will see how mistaken you are. In fact, if you aren't doing that, you have no basis for even making your claim -- as how can you know doing X will develop your skill if you aren't testing to see whether or not it does?



Disagree. Jong work can provide cardio so that you can go more than 10 seconds in the street. ( I think endurance is a fighting attribute, so this is an attribute that can be trained on the jong ). I have worked with numerous partners from other disciplines including MMA in a non rehearsed setting and have applied the attributes and movements practiced on the jong and with great success. Finally you state that jong work will not develop fighting skills or attributes. I would have to conclude from your statement that you are correct, but only if it is practiced solely as you apparently prescribe. Jong work, as illustrated in the video does develop these attributes for me. If you have never seriously trained it in this manner, perhaps it would be worth a try before passing judgement. It appears your cup is full.

[jeetsao]

Fact: the worst drivers think they're the best drivers.

Didn't claim to be the best, just one that trains hard and understands the difference in sport and "defense"

[TenTigers]

While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and "street" fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.

QFT!!!!!:cool:

[jeetsao]

QFT!!!!!:cool:

QFT? Sorry. Don't know that one.

[Knifefighter]

I can understand where it may seem that he may be unstable. Stability can look a lot different at this speed versus at slower speeds. Note that he is not overreaching - - something I see all too often in people practicing the dummy (even at slower "demonstration" speed). His head remains directly centered over his body the entire time, not leaning in or to one side. This is a good sign of stability as we understand that upper body leaning has an real negative affect on the entire structure.

I can see how it is hard to believe, but trust me, everything he is doing here is deliberate. This includes the lack of destruction to the dummy. I understand the act of "sending" or "releasing" a certain amount of energy into the dummy. But this is different. Note that the text in the video mentions how this type of training can develop rigid/struggling energy. He's focusing in remaining relaxed and purposely trying to control his application of force to the dummy... a nearly impossible task at this speed.

Not nearly impossible at all... considering the fact that once you get past a certain speed, human muscular force production actually decreases. Add to that the fact that he has almost no full kinetic chain force development and you have someone, in that demo, who is able to produce very little force in the first place.

[Knifefighter]

I don't know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a "fight" with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or "fighting" it is about ending a "life or death" encounter as quickly as possible.

These examples demonstrate what is generally the result when you put a "sport" guy against a "life or death" guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xdieYG8Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0&feature=related

.... and it's been going on at least since Kano developed judo in the 1800's because of his belief that, since Jujutsu's "deadly techniques" could not be practiced at full force, they were ineffective. He used his philosophy of full out training with safer, "sport" techniques to challenge the jujutsu guys and, basically, smashed them.

It's pretty much been proven over and over again that "life and death" training doesn't really hold up against sport training.

[jeetsao]

Knifefighter,
Pretty ugly. I love MMA. Same thing happens when you put boxers in with them. No matter how skilled the boxer, he is in the other guys arena. But the fact is that in these videos you have mma fighters against "weekend warriors" . These Ninjas, Kung fu guys etc. are not skilled practitioners, seem far from possessing deadly skill, and are playing the other guys game. Apples and Oranges.

And second. There are rules to protect the fighters. You know very well that many techniques in street defense are not allowed in MMA. Even in the early days the Gracies forbid the eyes as targets and would not allow fish hooking and biting. Today there are even more rules, gloves etc. Again, I love MMA and think they are great athletes and some are even great fighters but they are not the be all and end all in self defense. And yes if you play their game you will loose as these guys found out in your videos.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,
Pretty ugly. I love MMA. Same thing happens when you put boxers in with them. No matter how skilled the boxer, he is in the other guys arena. But the fact is that in these videos you have mma fighters against "weekend warriors" . These Ninjas, Kung fu guys etc. are not skilled practitioners, seem far from possessing deadly skill, and are playing the other guys game. Apples and Oranges.

And second. There are rules to protect the fighters. You know very well that many techniques in street defense are not allowed in MMA. Even in the early days the Gracies forbid the eyes as targets and would not allow fish hooking and biting. Today there are even more rules, gloves etc. Again, I love MMA and think they are great athletes and some are even great fighters but they are not the be all and end all in self defense. And yes if you play their game you will loose as these guys found out in your videos.

Several of those videos allowed all techniques. When you allow the "d3adly str33t techniques", the street guys fare even worse.

BTW, there were a few Gracie matches that had biting, eye gouging and all other techs. I saw Ryan Gracie bite a guy's ear off (actually, I saw him do it twice). Like I said, the "deadly street guys" always got the short end of the deal.

If you can't fight without foul tactics, you won't be able to fight any better when your opponent is allowed to use foul tactics.

[jeetsao]

Several of those videos allowed all techniques. When you allow the "d3adly str33t techniques", the street guys fare even worse.

BTW, there were a few Gracie matches that had biting, eye gouging and all other techs. I saw Ryan Gracie bite a guy's ear off (actually, I saw him do it twice). Like I said, the "deadly street guys" always got the short end of the deal.

If you can't fight without foul tactics, you won't be able to fight any better when your opponent is allowed to use foul tactics.

Agree but the fact remains that these videos are still MMA guys against unskilled opponents. Nothing helps when you are this lacking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can't fight without foul tactics, you won't be able to fight any better when your opponent is allowed to use foul tactics.

Quoted for the UBER-TRUTH !

[Knifefighter]

Agree but the fact remains that these videos are still MMA guys against unskilled opponents. Nothing helps when you are this lacking.

Of course they were unskilled. You can't develop skill when your techniques are too dangerous to practice for real. That's the whole point.

[t_niehoff]

Agree but the fact remains that these videos are still MMA guys against unskilled opponents. Nothing helps when you are this lacking.

So where are the "skilled opponents" to face the MMA guys? Out of all the "d3adly str33t" guys in the world, not ONE can step forward and produce a video showing handling a sport fighter? Or, is it that ONLY sport-type training produces "skilled opponents"?

[jeetsao]

So where are the "skilled opponents" to face the MMA guys? Out of all the "d3adly str33t" guys in the world, not ONE can step forward and produce a video showing handling a sport fighter? Or, is it that ONLY sport-type training produces "skilled opponents"?

Niehoff,
You argue so strongly for MMA. Is it your chosen art or do you practice some form of wing chun?

[jeetsao]

Of course they were unskilled. You can't develop skill when your techniques are too dangerous to practice for real. That's the whole point.

So the only way to develop skill is actually fighting? If so the mma guys waste a lot of time on supplemental training that will not help them in a real fight. I thought they worked the heavy bag, top and bottom bag, pads, etc. You might want to let them know their time would be better spent fighting.

[Knifefighter]

So the only way to develop skill is actually fighting? If so the mma guys waste a lot of time on supplemental training that will not help them in a real fight. I thought they worked the heavy bag, top and bottom bag, pads, etc. You might want to let them know their time would be better spent fighting.

Of course conditioning is important, but not the kind of "conditioning" you are going to get from what that guy is doing in the video.

[t_niehoff]

So the only way to develop skill is actually fighting?


That is correct. You only develop a skill doing the skill itself. You don't develop skill by NOT doing the skill.



If so the mma guys waste a lot of time on supplemental training that will not help them in a real fight. I thought they worked the heavy bag, top and bottom bag, pads, etc. You might want to let them know their time would be better spent fighting.

They aren't wasting their time -- they are working on their CONDITIONING. Conditioning isn't skill. Someone could spend all the time in the world working the bags, pads, etc. and never develop good fighting SKILL.

And since our performance level depends on and is limited by our level of conditioning, conditioning is in many ways more important than skill.

[jeetsao]

That is correct. You only develop a skill doing the skill itself. You don't develop skill by NOT doing the skill.



They aren't wasting their time -- they are working on their CONDITIONING. Conditioning isn't skill. Someone could spend all the time in the world working the bags, pads, etc. and never develop good fighting SKILL.

From an mma or boxing stand point, bag and pad work develop more than conditioning. You develop, power, accuracy, etc. Yes, "fighting" is required. But some aspects of proper execution are more quickly developed through drills and the use of equipment. For example, I learn proper mechanics of the jab or lead punch on equipment and in front of a mirror. I then learn to apply what I have learned by "fighting". Both are needed to achieve the goal if you want to train efficiently.
This is common sense. And the same goes for wing chun and training on the jong.

[t_niehoff]

From an mma or boxing stand point, bag and pad work develop more than conditioning. You develop, power, accuracy, etc.


You don't seem to understand what conditioning is. Conditioning is preparing your body for the fight, and that includes things like increasing your power, etc.

However, as I said, that does not increase skill -- which is your ability to use these things well in fighting.



Yes, "fighting" is required. But some aspects of proper execution are more quickly developed through drills and the use of equipment. For example, I learn proper mechanics of the jab or lead punch on equipment and in front of a mirror. I then learn to apply what I have learned by "fighting". Both are needed to achieve the goal if you want to train efficiently.


Fighting is what develops fighting skill. Everything else is only preparation to fight.



This is common sense. And the same goes for wing chun and training on the jong.

By "common sense" you mean what you speculate or imagine to be true.

The jong doesn't develop any fighting skills or attributes -- those only come from fighting. The jong is a learning device, a means of learning how to put body leverage into your bridges.

[jeetsao]

You don't seem to understand what conditioning is. Conditioning is preparing your body for the fight, and that includes things like increasing your power, etc.

However, as I said, that does not increase skill -- which is your ability to use these things well in fighting.



Fighting is what develops fighting skill. Everything else is only preparation to fight.



By "common sense" you mean what you speculate or imagine to be true.

The jong doesn't develop any fighting skills or attributes -- those only come from fighting. The jong is a learning device, a means of learning how to put body leverage into your bridges.

This has become ridiculous. We are arguing over definitions. Conditioning is generally understood to be cardio, and endurance in applying strength. (look it up). Yes, I know there is more.

Skill is the ability to do something well.



So when you combine, conditioning, skill in movement, skill in technique, etc, timing, correct mental state and a host of other attributes (many developed by fighting), you hope to develop a SKILLED fighter.

So... anytime I correctly execute a movement in the SETS or on the JONG or in FIGHTING, I am building skill which will help me become a SKILLED FIGHTER.

I agree that the jong can help you learn to put "body leverage" into your bridge. But any time you practice a movement correctly by what ever means or device, you are developing skill. Which will help you become a skilled fighter.

Now, you may not choose to use the jong for other purposes and that is fine. But to deny that it may produce results seems a bit closed minded.

An antibiotic may be developed to treat one infection but to deny it's use for another when discovered to be effective is "ridiculous"

[LSWCTN1]

An antibiotic may be developed to treat one infection but to deny it's use for another when discovered to be effective is "ridiculous"

Hence VIAGRA :D

[jeetsao]

Hence VIAGRA :D

Not the first that came to mind, but the example works................................ or ...... I hear it does.

[JockSparrow]

Jeetsao,

I'm not trying to provoke anybody, or be rude, but it seems to me that you are ignoring one very simple fact.

Fighting is a dialogue, or a transaction. Both parties are active. The jong, whilst it may provide physical feedback, does not initiate or respond to any movements. If you only train as an aggressor, you will not become a good fighter. You need to be put under pressure in order to test your defensive and countering ability. Everybody gets hit - fact.

Fighting requires conditioning, endurance, but overall, the ability to apply ones training against a resisting opponent. Whilst I am a firm believer that many of the drills and practices within WCK are good for helping to develop fighting skill - you simply cannot get better at fighting without doing the fighting. It really is that simple.

[jeetsao]

Jeetsao,

I'm not trying to provoke anybody, or be rude, but it seems to me that you are ignoring one very simple fact.

Fighting is a dialogue, or a transaction. Both parties are active. The jong, whilst it may provide physical feedback, does not initiate or respond to any movements. If you only train as an aggressor, you will not become a good fighter. You need to be put under pressure in order to test your defensive and countering ability. Everybody gets hit - fact.

Fighting requires conditioning, endurance, but overall, the ability to apply ones training against a resisting opponent. Whilst I am a firm believer that many of the drills and practices within WCK are good for helping to develop fighting skill - you simply cannot get better at fighting without doing the fighting. It really is that simple.

Jack,
I agree. No one is arguing that the jong work should be your only method of training. I spend a great deal of time in unrehearsed work just as you suggest. The disagreement on this thread has been over how the jong is used. Some have a very narrow belief in what it is useful for. Some of us are open to it's expanded use, while at the same time acknowledging it's traditional use.

[Knifefighter]

Jack,
I agree. No one is arguing that the jong work should be your only method of training. I spend a great deal of time in unrehearsed work just as you suggest. The disagreement on this thread has been over how the jong is used. Some have a very narrow belief in what it is useful for. Some of us are open to it's expanded use, while at the same time acknowledging it's traditional use.

If you train on the MJ and then your actual full contact fighting bears very little resemblance to how you look when doing the MJ, that means your MJ training falls apart under pressure. If it falls apart under pressure, it is worthless as a training vehicle.

It is obvious in original clip example, that what is being shown there is completely counterproductve to anything having to to with full force fighting.

[jeetsao]

If you train on the MJ and then your actual full contact fighting bears very little resemblance to how you look when doing the MJ, that means your MJ training falls apart under pressure. If it falls apart under pressure, it is worthless as a training vehicle.

It is obvious in original clip example, that what is being shown there is completely counterproductve to anything having to to with full force fighting.

You make assumptions that can not be made since you don't know me. As to the original clip: If you haven't put in the time to train it, you will never reap or understand the benefit.

[Knifefighter]

You make assumptions that can not be made since you don't know me. As to the original clip: If you haven't put in the time to train it, you will never reap or understand the benefit.

You either have never fought full force or you, if you have, you haven't taken the time to analyze the fact that when you fight full force, there is zero correlation to what was going on in that MJ set and what what happens when you go full out with a resisting opponent. If anyone did what was being shown on that clip, he would be knocked on his @ss in a couple of seconds.

[jeetsao]

You either have never fought full force or you, if you have, you haven't taken the time to analyze the fact that when you fight full force, there is zero correlation to what was going on in that MJ set and what what happens when you go full out with a resisting opponent. If anyone did what was being shown on that clip, he would be knocked on his @ss in a couple of seconds.

Again,
You have obviously never trained the jong in this way. So I don't expect you to understand.

[t_niehoff]

This has become ridiculous. We are arguing over definitions. Conditioning is generally understood to be cardio, and endurance in applying strength. (look it up). Yes, I know there is more.


Yes, there is more. Conditioning for fighting is doing those things to get your body to better withstand the rigors of fighting. It is the limit of your performance ability.



Skill is the ability to do something well.


Actually skill is defined as your ability to bring about a desired result with max certainty and min time/effort.



So when you combine, conditioning, skill in movement, skill in technique, etc, timing, correct mental state and a host of other attributes (many developed by fighting), you hope to develop a SKILLED fighter.


Yes, BUT -- and this is the HUGE but -- that "combination" only comes through fighting since that is the only time you combine all those elements. For example, there is NO timing outside of sparring. Timing is using an appropriate technique at the appropriate time (and range, etc.), right? How can you do that but in sparring?



So... anytime I correctly execute a movement in the SETS or on the JONG or in FIGHTING, I am building skill which will help me become a SKILLED FIGHTER.


No, you are practicing a movement in a form or on the jong but that isn't a skill -- a fighting skill is not the movement itself but your ability to get the result from that movement. For example, you can practice the movement or action of hitting a tennis ball with a forehand (without a ball or racket) but that isn't developing your forehand skill -- to do that you NEED to actually practice the skill, to actually practice hitting the ball with a racket.



I agree that the jong can help you learn to put "body leverage" into your bridge. But any time you practice a movement correctly by what ever means or device, you are developing skill. Which will help you become a skilled fighter.


No, you only develop skill by practicing the skill itself. The skill is much, much more than the movement. Moreover, you can't even know if your movement itself is "correct" without performing the skill. How can you know if your air forehand is "correct" unless you've hit loads of balls?



Now, you may not choose to use the jong for other purposes and that is fine. But to deny that it may produce results seems a bit closed minded.

An antibiotic may be developed to treat one infection but to deny it's use for another when discovered to be effective is "ridiculous"

I'm sorry but where is the evidence that your "discovery" is effective? You have none.

It is not closed-minded to refuse to accept any and all nonsense people try and fob off as "effective discoveries", particularly when they can't provide any evidence supporting their claim AND when their claim flies in the face of what we do know about how human beings develop skill.

[t_niehoff]

Again,
You have obviously never trained the jong in this way. So I don't expect you to understand.

Only knifefighter is a BJJ BB, has trained WCK, fought MMA and bare-knuckle, and has a university degree in sport education/training, so maybe, just maybe, he has some understanding of the process involved in developing athletic and/or fighting skill.

Maybe it is YOU that don't understand.

[Knifefighter]

Again,
You have obviously never trained the jong in this way. So I don't expect you to understand.

Actually, I have. Since I also did a lot of full force fighting and went to school to learn about developing human performance, I eventually learned that doing what he is doing is counter productive to what you need to do in full force fighting.

[RedJunkRebel]

Actually, I have. Since I also did a lot of full force fighting and went to school to learn about developing human performance, I eventually learned that doing what he is doing is counter productive to what you need to do in full force fighting.

No.... you haven't trained like this. And if you really think you have, it wasn't done correctly.

[Knifefighter]

No.... you haven't trained like this. And if you really think you have, it wasn't done correctly.

What is incorrect is everything he is doing in that clip. People who don't do full contact won't understand that, though.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Lolz.

Do advanced students combine the deadly compression training with the lethal blindfolded unbridged sidekick (done backwards for better mortal wounding skills and without power because it would cost a lot in wooden dummies) later on?

Methinks someone ran out of functional curricula a long time ago.

[RedJunkRebel]

What is incorrect is everything he is doing in that clip. People who don't do full contact won't understand that, though.

What is incorrect is judging something you have no idea about... yet then trying to pretend that you have done it as it is presented here.

[Knifefighter]

What is incorrect is judging something you have no idea about... yet then trying to pretend that you have done it as it is presented here.

Do you think you could fight full contact and look like what was done in that clip?

[Knifefighter]

Who ever said the point was to look like this in full contact?

If you are training in something that looks completely different that what you will do in real application, it is pretty much a waste of time at the best, and, more than likely counterproductive.

Specificity of training... it is the underlying foundation of human performance enhancement.

[Knifefighter]

Specificity of training is the difference between a CMA fighter that fights like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5YdkJlcIZg

and one that gets his @ss handed to him like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

[RedJunkRebel]

If you are training in something that looks completely different that what you will do in real application, it is pretty much a waste of time at the best, and, more than likely counterproductive.

Specificity of training... it is the underlying foundation of human performance enhancement.

I agree with you that there is no substitute for sparring. However, sparring alone is not enough. Practicing forms, chi sao and other "self-perfecting" isolated drills can have a dramatic impact on performance when integrated into your training.

[Knifefighter]

I agree with you that there is no substitute for sparring. However, sparring alone is not enough. Practicing forms, chi sao and other "self-perfecting" isolated drills can have a dramatic impact on performance when integrated into your training.

All of those other things need to be as close to the real thing as possible. When you do things that have no resemblance to the full force activity (such as was shown in the original clip), you are training to make yourself less effective rather than more effective.

[jeetsao]

All of those other things need to be as close to the real thing as possible. When you do things that have no resemblance to the full force activity (such as was shown in the original clip), you are training to make yourself less effective rather than more effective.

I guess I have changed my mind after seeing this training clip of Anderson Silva.
In particular the first couple of seconds where he is training "Full Force" on the equipment just as he would throw the punches in a real fight. Very impressive.
I can see now why he is so good. Train as you would fight. Look at his foot work, his base, his elbow position and follow through on the punches. Now I understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkeNzW8gOg

[Knifefighter]

I guess I have changed my mind after seeing this training clip of Anderson Silva.
In particular the first couple of seconds where he is training "Full Force" on the equipment just as he would throw the punches in a real fight. Very impressive.
I can see now why he is so good. Train as you would fight. Look at his foot work, his base, his elbow position and follow through on the punches. Now I understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkeNzW8gOg

There are two parts to that clip, the speed bag, and the ball work. The speed bag work is antiquated and probably doesn't help his fighting. The speed bag work was included in his training simply because it's always been done that way. One could make a strong argument for excluding this from a training protocol.

The ball work work comes from analyzing his fighting movements and developing a training paradigm based on those. This is the modern sport training method and has been proven to be superior over and over again in everything from fighting, to weight lifting, to running, to soccer, to football, to baseball, to track and field.

Watch Silva fight. When he fights, his movements are nothing like the speed bag work but his movements are almost the same as done with the ball reflex training. If one were looking to make his training more efficient, the modern training method would phase out the speed bag for more sport specific training.

Fortunately for modern fighters, the modern sport training model has very little of the antiquated training methods and consists more of training that follows what we know improves human physical performance.

Unfortunately for those who still train the old-fashioned way, the old CMA methods include a much higher percentage on non-specific training such as mook jong, chi sao and SLT, which crowd out the more specific types of training such as sparring.

[RedJunkRebel]

All of those other things need to be as close to the real thing as possible. When you do things that have no resemblance to the full force activity (such as was shown in the original clip), you are training to make yourself less effective rather than more effective.

If this were the case, why have the forms at all? Why practice chi sao at all?

[Hardwork108]

I agree with you that there is no substitute for sparring. However, sparring alone is not enough. Practicing forms, chi sao and other "self-perfecting" isolated drills can have a dramatic impact on performance when integrated into your training.

That is a very true and logical statement. Unfortunately people who have never trained authentic TCMAs for real (and don't kid yourself, this forum is full of such people), will never understand the wisdom of the methodology you have just described.:)

[RB93SAAT]

That is a very true and logical statement. Unfortunately people who have never trained authentic TCMAs for real (and don't kid yourself, this forum is full of such people), will never understand the wisdom of the methodology you have just described.:)

I agree with you both 100%.

[jeetsao]

I agree with you both 100%.

I agree with the three of you.

[jeetsao]

Unfortunately for those who still train the old-fashioned way, the old CMA methods include a much higher percentage on non-specific training such as mook jong, chi sao and SLT, which crowd out the more specific types of training such as sparring.

You may not have spent enough time and effort to understand the depth of theses training methods.