Fook Sau

[hpclub]

Hi all

I know this seems like quite a pedantic point but I was wondering when you perform your Fook Sau in Sil Lim Tao if you have the wrist joint or the first knuckle on your centreline. And is there are differences why you practice that particular way?

Its just a variation I have noticed amongst lineages which I'd like to explore so I can make up my own mind on the optimal position.

Regards

[t_niehoff]

Hi all

I know this seems like quite a pedantic point but I was wondering when you perform your Fook Sau in Sil Lim Tao if you have the wrist joint or the first knuckle on your centreline. And is there are differences why you practice that particular way?

Its just a variation I have noticed amongst lineages which I'd like to explore so I can make up my own mind on the optimal position.

Regards

The form only provides a "prototype" of the movement, an example as it were. Fook sao, like the other bridge hands, is not a shape or "position" but an action (you are doing something, and in the case of fook sao, you are as the name indicates, controlling something). How to optimally perform the action can only be determined via application - by trying to actually control an opponent and seeing what works best (for your).

[t_niehoff]

"Fook" means to control or subdue, "sao" means arm/hand.

The terminology tells you what the action is. Sort of like "hip throw" -- the term is descriptive. The terms "fook sao" and "hip throw" were adopted because they reflected what people were doing (or trying to do).

Your view that "hip throw" really doesn't mean to throw someone with the hip -- or that fook sao doesn't really mean a controlling arm -- that it is instead some entirely different action belies common sense.

As does your view that you practice one way of moving in chi sao to discard it later.

[CFT]

Your view that "hip throw" really doesn't mean to throw someone with the hip -- or that fook sao doesn't really mean a controlling arm -- that it is instead some entirely different action belies common sense.

As does your view that you practice one way of moving in chi sao to discard it later.I think he (KG) is pretty consistent with his training methodology. He is clear that the attributes developed in chi sao carry over into sparring. For his lineage it is all about developing the punch and the flowing atttack (sorry to paraphrase).

A bit like running to develop stamina for fighting but not actually running in the fight (which might actually be a good idea for "self defence").

[SAAMAG]

BUT to answer the question of the OP, it matters little. Most folks keep the arm on the centerline...this is to teach the body to get used to the inner elbow position and to generate the forward intent while on the inside attacking line. So I agree with Kevin to this point.

However I also agree that it is an action, as Terence points out. It is meant to serve as a controlling hand. This control could be simply controlling space, retaining the inside line with punching, or it could be controlling in that you've used it to stick to the attacking arm and redirect it around to gain an inside line (fook to huen). I've known people who think of man-geng-sao as a derivative of the fook sao.

There are probably a NUMBER of reasons why things are done the way they are done, to build attributes, to build application skill, to build muscle memory, etc etc.

The only right and wrong is based on the end result...does your fook sao work for you? Great! Because everyone is built differently, everyone will have a slightly different variation in their fook more than likely.

[Graham H]

"Fook" means to control or subdue, "sao" means arm/hand.



Fook Sau is to learn how to control the elbow for the punch. Its not to control your opponents arm!!!! Anybody who has ever been in a fight will know that trying to control arms is not possible and its stupid to think that way!!! There is never any time to make arm contact let alone manipulate them and if it happens its over a the blink of an eye. The basic idea of Ving Tsun is to attack with the punch and keep attacking until the other guy is unable to continue. We must be free of contact so we can hit. The cycling of Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Wu Sau allows us to do this effectively. Bong Sau, Pak Sau and Jut Sau are there for us to open the way for the punch if required.

The usage of the elbow for the Ving Tsun punch is not a natural way for us humans to move our arms. We rarely, if ever, require the elbow to be inside and in front of the body in our everyday lives so SLT is there for us to make this possible. These are WSL's words.

The Chi Sau bubble has ruined what in essence is a very effective form of unarmed combat. :(

So Terry will please post some more of your head slapping links??? They are funny but not as funny as your subduing hands!!:D

GH

[t_niehoff]

I think he (KG) is pretty consistent with his training methodology. He is clear that the attributes developed in chi sao carry over into sparring. For his lineage it is all about developing the punch and the flowing atttack (sorry to paraphrase).

A bit like running to develop stamina for fighting but not actually running in the fight (which might actually be a good idea for "self defence").

Yes, he is consistent -- consistently wrong.

Chi sao doesn't develop "attributes".

[t_niehoff]

Fook Sau is to learn how to control the elbow for the punch. Its not to control your opponents arm!!!!


Are you serious? Control your own elbow -- for your punch? Think about that. Why would you need to do that? Why not just practice doing that with your punch itself? Why do an entirely different action? How is that good training?



Anybody who has ever been in a fight will know that trying to control arms is not possible and its stupid to think that way!!! There is never any time to make arm contact let alone manipulate them and if it happens its over a the blink of an eye.


Wow. Then I guess it really makes no sense to practice chi sao since there is never any time to make arm contact, there is no sense is learning things like "trapping" or doing the lop sao drill, etc.

If you're right, why don't we just take up boxing, which has proven itself vastly superior to WCK in terms of free-movement striking?



The basic idea of Ving Tsun is to attack with the punch and keep attacking until the other guy is unable to continue. We must be free of contact so we can hit. The cycling of Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Wu Sau allows us to do this effectively. Bong Sau, Pak Sau and Jut Sau are there for us to open the way for the punch if required.


You think this is the "basic idea of WCK"? Interesting. And what do you think your opponent is doing while you are punching? Did it ever occur to you that he might just keep punching or try and clinch or shoot in, etc.? How do you deal with what your opponent is doing? Simply by punching?

Why not control your opponent while you strike him?



The usage of the elbow for the Ving Tsun punch is not a natural way for us humans to move our arms. We rarely, if ever, require the elbow to be inside and in front of the body in our everyday lives so SLT is there for us to make this possible. These are WSL's words.


If these were WSL's words, then WSL was an idiot. And I don't think he was an idiot. ;)

Keeping the elbow in and down is quite natural in certain circumstance -- and all clinch fighters do it.



The Chi Sau bubble has ruined what in essence is a very effective form of unarmed combat. :(


Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense too -- the signature drill of WCK is what has ruined WCK!

Maybe, it's because you have grasp of what the signature drill is trying to teach you.

[Knifefighter]

you don't control with a fok sao this is a classic 'chi-sao head' way of thinking :D its a way to develop the elbows for striking, the elbow is behind the wrist with inwards forwards pressure, so it 'lat sao chit cheungs' into bad partner elbow positions versus their tan sao. Further developing a mindless attacking ability. Fok is a jum sao strike without the fist made yet...wrists are relaxed ergo the 'floppy hand'. If you try to control with the wrist of fok sao your in for a surprise when you meet someone who knows what they are doing ...Terence is in for a surprise :D

You dont spar with a fok sao, you spar with the results of drilling with it...fight with punches, timing , distance, strategy...not a floppy fok sao :rolleyes:

dont look for 1:1 'fighting applications' in SLT or you will end up confused Like T, the elbows are developed early on in the system to create forearms barriers that simultaneously counter certain angles of incoming force by intercepting them along our striking attack line...The functionality of our attacking depends on the constant correct angles of the forearms and height of the elbows, relative to our structures in movement, while fighting...simple really but hard to grasp without being shown its effectiveness first hand...FIGHTING. And not in a dirty T clinch.

Still waiting for those clips of you sparring.

[Graham H]

post deleted

[t_niehoff]

Terrence you are a p***k!!!

I'm happy with what my Teacher teaches me. Your idea of VT is pants!!!

I'm sure you are -- there are loads of people learning pure crap and are satisfied with what they are getting.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah, control your own elbow, crazy idea, huh Terence ? Thats the idea of VT , go figure that you arent even aware of that....:D

If you want to learn how to position your elbow in punching and train it, then practice it with punching. Learn X, then practice X, then do X. Crazy idea, huh?

Your idea that everything is to train elbow position is silly -- you don't need to do fook sao to learn how to position your elbow when punching: you've already learned that when you learned the punch.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Funny, I always thought of Fook as being used to sense the energy of the opponent. The variations, Jum, Jut etc were the applications based on what the opponenet gives us. So, really the position is used to sense what is needed and then provide the proper shape to "control" the incoming force.

However, in understanding the idea of control, keep in mind that sometimes you simply ride and re-direct what is given us. Not every opportunity allows us to punch in return.

Even the Kuit teaches that if one worries about hitting all of the time then one will be hit.

Trying to blindly hit someone just because their there is poor strategy, IMHO.

[Sihing73]

Kevin,

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

The Fook actually rides the opponents energy and transitions to whatever is needed. If the Fook were simply a punch then there would be no need to perform Jut or Jum. As WC is concerned with simplicity and economy of movement, what sense does it make to change into something else (Jut or Jum or whatever) prior to striking?

The elbow placement of a proper Fook will, by its inherent shape, occupy the line and act as a deflection to an incoming punch (in most cases). Therefore, by your reasoning, the line would already be open to strike and would not require the Jut/Jum etc.

In chi sao the above is shown over and over again as the punch/palm from taun will already have been deflected by the shape of the Fook. However, the returning punch is performed after the Jum or Jut is applied. This requires two distinct motions and different energies.

If you simply wanted to punch you could exercise the excluding and including punches both with and without turning. However, the Fook in and of itself is something different than a punch, imho.

[Sihing73]

Kevin,

Like I said, we will just have to disagree on this point. Fook is not a strike/punch as done in the forms or chi sau it has a another purpose and trains different attributes.

With your line of reasoning everything is a strike/punch so why do the shapes offer so many variations?

In essence, in your line of thinking there are only strikes/punches and what???

I doubt if you trained as I have been taught unless you had the same instructors which I doubt.

My WC also integrates aspects of FMA and Kuntao as I was taught to explore and incorporate other things into my WC. Others in my lineage have decided to blend in BJJ, I just opted for another route.

You could argue that my WC is no longer pure, but I always liked to go with what works, at least for me.

Again, Fook is a distinct shape and family which is seperate from a punch/strike. If you do not agree that is your right no matter how wrong each of us thinks the other may be. :D

[Sihing73]

Kevin,

The next time I am in NYC I will let you know. I would welcome the opportunity to explore some of the WSL methods. All in the spirit of learning and brotherhood.

[Sihing73]

Kevin,

I trained in Germany under Keith Kernsprecht and whenever any of the German guys visited the US it was an eye opening experience for those who only trained in the US. Those in Germany, while I was there anyhow, were far more dedicated to their training and worked much harder. Made all the difference in the world.

[t_niehoff]

The underlying idea is how to be able to continuously attack a person as our defense for 9 out of 10 seconds. %

And that "idea" is fundamentally unsound (a fantasy).

[k gledhill]

Terence doesn't understand , so it's fantasy :D

[Knifefighter]

I had my eyes opened too...btw we just had a student of philipp come over from europe and hand us our a r s e s for 6 months . sparring with vt is not like chi-sao :D but you need chi-sao to prepare to meet the combined forces of a vt attack.
You cant think while fighting as chi-sao lets you, iow we repeat 1000's of times the simple actions with structure, alignment required in the split second clash of 2 fighters meeting ...mistakes show as bad stances giving way, arms go chasing arms instead of hitting heads WHILE deflecting :D if you make defensive actions with no attacking actions too, you give the fight to the guy who's attacking always...relentlessly.

chi-sao allows the time to repeat, to perfect, to exchange force with a MUTUAL partner not fighting IN chi-sao or trying to emulate the drills as the fighting method....classic confusion.

Still waiting for the videos. You know, it generally takes about 10 minutes to upload a video.

[k gledhill]

Dale be patient I too wait for the student to download them....

Ter's never heard the saying the best defense is a good offense...or how to impliment it using VT.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Ter's never heard the saying the best defense is a good offense...

You really think a Defense Attorney has never heard of that? :D

[t_niehoff]

Terence doesn't understand , so it's fantasy :D

I understand what you are talking about. I learned this 25 years ago. This is nothing new. It simply doesn't work (unless you get extremely lucky and knock the guy silly with your first punch).

I also understand the saying "a good defense is a strong offense". However, a good defense isn't an offense that doesn't work. Simply throwing punches won't prevent your opponent from throwing punches too, from shooting in, from clinching, etc. And only using straight punches in free-movement, noncontact is very simply dealt with (which is why boxers,MT, and MMA fighters don't do that).

What that saying refers to is that while an opponent is playing defense, he cannot be playing offense. Just attacking him with straight punches won't force him on to defense.

The whole point of controlling your opponent while you strike him IS to keep him on defense -- to force him to continually deal with trying to extricate himself from your control before he can even think about attacking you, all the while using that control and his attempts to escape control as opportunities to strike. This is the game that chi sao teaches you, albeit in a unrealistic environment -- it is WCK with the training wheels on. When you play chi sao with someone "good", they control you, toss you around like a rag doll, all the while using that to set up strikes.

[Graham H]

chi-sao is not the way we fight its a mutual exchange of force between 2 VT fighters taking time out from sparring and each helping the other improve their abilities through high reps at speed and increasing pressure from each partner. We add random entry attacks and counters from each to create intuitive responses involving movement relative to certain actions from an opponent....all from no pre contact.
iow we aren't seeking to recreate chi-sao with the opponent in a clinch ...
.

Well worded Kevin.......

I'm tired of Terrence's view of Wing Chun and I've only been posting on here for a short time. He seems to be involved in most quarrels and by the end is normally singled out to be attacked from all angles. No point in me disaggreeing with his POV...... No point in trying to explain to somebody how to make a coffee when they can't even boil a kettle :D

Terrence???......que head slaps!!!!....and action!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

I am finding this thread a real joke as it seems that as brothers we can't even agree to a unified understanding of Fook Sau!

I also find it funny that nobody has mentioned that another translation for Fook is HIDDEN and it seems the concept of literal translation is still locked away in the Wing Chun vault somewhere in history! :rolleyes:

Fook sau is just fook sau, as bong is just bong and tan is just tan. They are all part of a 'seed' that SHOULD unite us all. Unfortunately, even this is just not understood by everyone in the same way. What a shame.

Wing Chun is dying faster than I thought. :(

[Knifefighter]

I am finding this thread a real joke as it seems that as brothers we can't even agree to a unified understanding of Fook Sau!

I also find it funny that nobody has mentioned that another translation for Fook is HIDDEN and it seems the concept of literal translation is still locked away in the Wing Chun vault somewhere in history! :rolleyes:

Fook sau is just fook sau, as bong is just bong and tan is just tan. They are all part of a 'seed' that SHOULD unite us all. Unfortunately, even this is just not understood by everyone in the same way. What a shame.

Wing Chun is dying faster than I thought. :(

That's what happens when you have a system in which most people are doing theoretical, pretend, non-fighting.

Notice how you won't find disagreement over what a triangle in BJJ is, an osoto-gari in judo is, a knee bar in Sambo is, a double leg takedown in wrestling is, a cross in boxing is, or a plum in Muay Thai is.
e

[LoneTiger108]

That's what happens when you have a system in which most people are doing theoretical, pretend, non-fighting.

Notice how you won't find disagreement over what a triangle in BJJ is, an osoto-gari in judo is, a knee bar in Sambo is, a double leg takedown in wrestling is, a cross in boxing is, or a plum in Muay Thai is.
e

I take your point but please don't try to convince me that other arts do not have their politics too! :D And I find it funny that you compare Wing Chun with these competitive 'sports'.

Wing Chun is not designed to please audiences, and from what I have researched there are as many fighters as there are theoriticians so your point is pretty much pointless imho.

[m1k3]

I take your point but please don't try to convince me that other arts do not have their politics too! :D And I find it funny that you compare Wing Chun with these competitive 'sports'.

Wing Chun is not designed to please audiences, and from what I have researched there are as many fighters as there are theoriticians so your point is pretty much pointless imho.

Sure they have politics and arguments, but not over the function of a basic technique.

As for the fighters would you care to show some examples?

[Knifefighter]

I take your point but please don't try to convince me that other arts do not have their politics too! :D And I find it funny that you compare Wing Chun with these competitive 'sports'.

Yeah, how silly of me to try to compare functional systems with one that is mostly theoretical.

[Knifefighter]

Wing Chun is not designed to please audiences, and from what I have researched there are as many fighters as there are theoriticians so your point is pretty much pointless imho.

LOL... not even close. You can tell that simply by comparing the demo vids to the full contact vids.

[Graham H]

I am finding this thread a real joke as it seems that as brothers we can't even agree to a unified understanding of Fook Sau!

I also find it funny that nobody has mentioned that another translation for Fook is HIDDEN and it seems the concept of literal translation is still locked away in the Wing Chun vault somewhere in history! :rolleyes:

Fook sau is just fook sau, as bong is just bong and tan is just tan. They are all part of a 'seed' that SHOULD unite us all. Unfortunately, even this is just not understood by everyone in the same way. What a shame.

Wing Chun is dying faster than I thought. :(

Hidden????????? Come on, you can't be serious!!!!! :D

Fook Sau is a punch, Tan Sau is a punch and Bong Sau opens the way for the punch....simple thinking, intelligent fighting!!!! How can you say fook is just fook and tan is just tan???? Its fundamentally the foundation of the whole system ffs!!!!

The basic disagreement here is whether fook sau is used for developing the concept and correct way of the VT punch or whether its used to sense energy, control limbs and subdue arms. Look at that statement and tell me which idea you would prefer to take into a fight????

If you guys are spent locked up in each others arms for the duration of your chi sau practice then thats ok........pointless but ok if that what you think VT is teaching us. I prefer to use my Chi Sau to develop attributes and then take into sparring to test......There is no rolling in sparring and neither is there prolonged periods of arm contact so why waste time trying to do things in Chi Sau that have no place in fighting?????? THAT'S why VT is dying!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

GH

[t_niehoff]

Hidden????????? Come on, you can't be serious!!!!! :D

Fook Sau is a punch, Tan Sau is a punch and Bong Sau opens the way for the punch....simple thinking, intelligent fighting!!!! How can you say fook is just fook and tan is just tan???? Its fundamentally the foundation of the whole system ffs!!!!


Fook sao, tan sao aren't punches. Bong sao isn't to open the way for a punch. These are all bridge hands (kiu sao). In fact, these same actions sometimes have different names in different branches of WCK, yet they always act as kiu sao.

And this explains why tan, bong, fook make up the luk sao chi sao platform -- as these are the fundamental bridge hands and we do the drill/exercise (chi sao) WHILE maintaining bridges. If all we wanted to do was to punch, we wouldn't need to do chi sao, we could just do punching drills.



The basic disagreement here is whether fook sau is used for developing the concept and correct way of the VT punch or whether its used to sense energy, control limbs and subdue arms. Look at that statement and tell me which idea you would prefer to take into a fight????


The WCK punch as it is done in the forms and drills develop the correct way of WCK punching. If you want to train how to punch, then punch. You can't learn how to do it by not punching.

Similarly, you can't learn to control by not controlling.



If you guys are spent locked up in each others arms for the duration of your chi sau practice then thats ok........pointless but ok if that what you think VT is teaching us. I prefer to use my Chi Sau to develop attributes and then take into sparring to test......There is no rolling in sparring and neither is there prolonged periods of arm contact so why waste time trying to do things in Chi Sau that have no place in fighting?????? THAT'S why VT is dying!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

GH

WCK's method is to control while striking -- the method goes back to the founders of WCK. Chi sao is only teaching us how the movements/actions of WCK can be used to do that. If you want a platform to teach contact fighting actions, including how to control and use someone's bridges, wouldn't you use something like chi sao? You need to then take that into sparring to develop it.

Chi sao doesn't develop "attributes".

The rolling arms (poon sao) is to teach you something that pertains to contact fighting. Do you know what that something is? If not, then doing it IS a waste of time since you don't know what you are learning.

[air]

Here is how we do our Fuk Sao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m55twzbAufk

[k gledhill]

What GH said....the test is sparring with your 'developed' ideas... sparring.

A lot of chi-sao is actually redundant to our fighting, it simply is a unique drill that imo has been so misunderstood by so many for so long , its become the norm.

Feeling / sensitivity is a by-product of the striking drills, not the aim to become acute feelers in controlling, contact, clinch-fests. :D

imo, the problem lies in the initiation to the process, guys get shown to use a jut instead of a fok sao with inwards forwards striking energy,meeting a tan with inwards forwards energy...the tan extends and instead of engaging it with an equalizing forward inward elbow [preceding a following strike] the fok rolls back and does all kinds of dissolving things. This takes the hips out of the equation due to the tans energy being nullified instead of using it to develop a counter striking energy that will be its [tans] partner in striking attacks, developing the stance too, to back up the punches ...iow we start to develop the striking partnership in dan chi-sao, each in turn. Tan leads, jum responds, jum strikes, tan bongs, jum becomes fok elbow recovery [in and down] arms drop to repeat.
You feel the hips when doing this because the jum is trying to maintain its elbow angle alone to make the tan deflect sideways ...

[YungChun]

I always see both points and I also see both extremes as extremes..

Kevin and Terence are polar opposites, that while each has good points each is limited (or it would seem so) because neither can see the validity in the other POV...or any other POV..

Of course there are controlling aspects, of course there are striking aspects, and of course there are attributes...

The key is the cultivation of kinesthetic awareness to energy and position.. The training addresses how to use that to gain an advantage tactically in the moment (conditioned response) to gain an advantage using Chun tools and techniques in order to strike, often while controlling which can be direct or indirect control.

Again, much of the confusion arises IMO because much of what is Chun and the training methods were created and intended to be used against people that used similar methods; that also wanted to bridge; that wanted to control the centerline, etc.. When you fight someone like that, vs someone who doesn't fight anything like that, you cannot expect the same things to happen, the same tools and actions to be useful or needed... How the art of Chun is used will be dependent on what you are dealing with or not dealing with in the moment.

[Graham H]

Fook sao, tan sao aren't punches. Bong sao isn't to open the way for a punch.



In our lineage it is and thats the exact reason I'm in it. I've seen and done your way T and it sucks!!! In fact I had 8 years of it!!!!!!

The contact in Poon Sau is so we can use each other to increase our own force and attain structure for the punch amongst other things. Not to learn how to bridge arms and control them!!!!!

Like Kevin and many before him, I too used to see Chi Sau how T does until the day came when I met somebody who had a better idea.....a much better idea!!!!

GH

[shawchemical]

If you want to learn how to position your elbow in punching and train it, then practice it with punching. Learn X, then practice X, then do X. Crazy idea, huh?

Your idea that everything is to train elbow position is silly -- you don't need to do fook sao to learn how to position your elbow when punching: you've already learned that when you learned the punch.

Geez you're simple T.

Did you ride the special blue bus to school?

[Graham H]

A lot of chi-sao is actually redundant to our fighting, it simply is a unique drill that imo has been so misunderstood by so many for so long , its become the norm.

Feeling / sensitivity is a by-product of the striking drills, not the aim to become acute feelers in controlling, contact, clinch-fests. :D


For anybody that has even a slightest bit of common sense they should be able to see how "poon sau" has been so misinterpreted. Not many can though until they are shown otherwise. Most never will so they will carry playing the contact and control game forever. Sad really but very true.

I have an article by WSL in which he states that in order to understand Ving Tsun it requires a "certain intelligence".....This intelligence doesn't mean a high IQ but an understanding of the system and what the components inside are actually teaching us. This "intelligence" is not shared by everybody and is the main reason why VT lost its way.

Kevin has made a great point in that the feeling and sensitivity in Chi Sau is a by product of the striking drills. Its easy to see why it has been over complicated and grossly misinterpreted today.

GH

[CFT]

iow you don't have to use your two 'hands' to fight the guys one always, this is what Terence and others follow the controlling ,clinching path. Their Punch isnt capable of doing anything other than fist to target, while their other hand seeks to make a controlling action and take itself out of the fight, trying to use lopsao ( grab ) and maintain a controlling /trapping hand constantly.Not true Kevin. I've had a play with some of the CSLWCK "entry level" (my term) drills when some of my friends started training in the system. If I remember correctly one of their "cutting punch" drills trained this aspect. The "jum-ing" punch cut across the elbow crease of the incoming punch letting your elbow control theirs.

[LoneTiger108]

Hidden????????? Come on, you can't be serious!!!!! :D

Unfortunately for you, yes I AM serious. If you just 'look' at the character you would see what I'm saying. I'm not trying to change what you think but trying to open your mind to the idea that I learnt from the written word. That's all. Fook means hidden/subdue/control.


Fook Sau is a punch, Tan Sau is a punch and Bong Sau opens the way for the punch....simple thinking, intelligent fighting!!!! How can you say fook is just fook and tan is just tan???? Its fundamentally the foundation of the whole system ffs!!!!

I think this is where we get our wires crossed. I never said fook sau can not BE a punch, but I do think it's wrong to describe fook sau as ONLY a punch. The seeds can ALL be a punch, BUT as I said, I learnt from the words so I would then refer to what you're talking of as fook sau kuen I have to ask though, if fook and tan CAN BE punches then why do you not use bong sau kuen?? For self proclaimed practical fighters you don't throw a hook??


I prefer to use my Chi Sau to develop attributes and then take into sparring to test......There is no rolling in sparring and neither is there prolonged periods of arm contact so why waste time trying to do things in Chi Sau that have no place in fighting?????? THAT'S why VT is dying!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Really? Wing Chun is dying because of it's Chisau exercise? Answer me this, and believe me it's a very simple answer, what's the difference between chisau and looksau? They're both very different INTERACTIONS, for different purposes, but I'm sure you know this. :rolleyes:

IMHO Wing Chun is dying because not enough people have studied under a competent Sifu. I also believe Wing Chun is dying because so many incompetent students leave the basics behind in preference of fighting and may even believe that all Wing Chun is IS fighting! :o

[CFT]

Kevin has made a great point in that the feeling and sensitivity in Chi Sau is a by product of the striking drills. Its easy to see why it has been over complicated and grossly misinterpreted today.This is a very good point and worth repeating. It is still a boxing art.

But Terence is quite consistent with his advocacy of the idea of control. Position and control. To a degree it is not too different to what PBWSLVT does with it's flanking to get superior position. Maybe PBWSLVT is a bit more "ballistic" and CSLWCK is a bit more "hands on"? Without personally experience it is better not to be so strident with the labelling.

[t_niehoff]

This is a very good point and worth repeating. It is still a boxing art.


What do you mean by "boxing art"?



But Terence is quite consistent with his advocacy of the idea of control. Position and control. To a degree it is not too different to what PBWSLVT does with it's flanking to get superior position. Maybe PBWSLVT is a bit more "ballistic" and CSLWCK is a bit more "hands on"? Without personally experience it is better not to be so strident with the labelling.

The method of WCK as it comes down from the ancestors is to control the opponent while striking him.

In practice, you can't get or maintain the flank in free-movement as your opponents will track your movement and continually face you.

[t_niehoff]

Not true Kevin. I've had a play with some of the CSLWCK "entry level" (my term) drills when some of my friends started training in the system. If I remember correctly one of their "cutting punch" drills trained this aspect. The "jum-ing" punch cut across the elbow crease of the incoming punch letting your elbow control theirs.

Exactly. This is just ONE aspect/tactic of WCK -- and it can be very useful in the proper situation. But it isn't the whole enchilada, and doesn't work in all or even most situations.

[t_niehoff]

In our lineage it is and thats the exact reason I'm in it. I've seen and done your way T and it sucks!!! In fact I had 8 years of it!!!!!!

The contact in Poon Sau is so we can use each other to increase our own force and attain structure for the punch amongst other things. Not to learn how to bridge arms and control them!!!!!

Like Kevin and many before him, I too used to see Chi Sau how T does until the day came when I met somebody who had a better idea.....a much better idea!!!!

GH

No, you've never done chi sao how I do it. :)

Why do poon sao to develop the structure for the punch? You are not doing a punch when you do poon sao. So how can it develop punching structure?

You don't know what poon sao teaches. Do you even know what "poon" means?

[CFT]

What do you mean by "boxing art"?That it is not a grappling art.


In practice, you can't get or maintain the flank in free-movement as your opponents will track your movement and continually face you.I agree.


Exactly. This is just ONE aspect/tactic of WCK -- and it can be very useful in the proper situation. But it isn't the whole enchilada, and doesn't work in all or even most situations.Aye, short-arse like me cannot always get above the incoming punch with a "jum-ing" action.

[t_niehoff]

The Punch is more than just a punch in VT , the techniques allow the lead man sao forearm to become a second set of hands as the rear hand doesn't need to 'control' due to the fact that the arms are now capable of both punching AND defending along the centerline . Tut -sao ( aimed high, as punches )is this threading of arm to arm along the centerline, sweeping it with the forearms....

iow you don't have to use your two 'hands' to fight the guys one always, this is what Terence and others follow the controlling ,clinching path. Their Punch isnt capable of doing anything other than fist to target, while their other hand seeks to make a controlling action and take itself out of the fight, trying to use lopsao ( grab ) and maintain a controlling /trapping hand constantly.

I used to think this way too...

You don't have a clue as to what I do.

You seem to have a very low-level understanding what the centerline (jung sien) is. An opponent is NOT going to only attack along some "line" - with straight punches - so that all you need to do is punch and defend along it. Nor is an opponent going to stand directly in front of you with fixed facing, he's going to be constantly moving, constantly changing facing, moving his head, hitting from angles, etc. -- completely unlike what most WCK robots do (even when they "pretend" to box). And, if all you do is punch on some line, it is very easy for your opponent to deal with.

And you understand what a mun sao is (asking hand). It is not a technique or shape but a tactic -- any tool can be a mun sao. And like any tactic, you need to know the context for when it is useful and when it is not.

Controlling while striking is a dynamic process and there is no fixed way of doing it (your controlling with one hand and hitting with the other). Controlling isn't "taking your hand out of the fight" -- you are taking the fight out of the opponent by controlling him! Control takes away his offense, it opens up your offense.

Yip Man controlling while striking:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.brooklynwt.com/files/images/0005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.brooklynwt.com/node/2064&usg=__s5wsWwEmdYiSOXaiFXj3y7cYx4w=&h=423&w=297&sz=25&hl=en&start=18&zoom=1&tbnid=IQrII4E3zKiltM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyip%2Bman%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D 1024%26bih%3D587%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C570&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=417&vpy=212&dur=1576&hovh=268&hovw=188&tx=55&ty=292&ei=GvKhTISRB8SmnAfUnp2JBA&oei=FPKhTK-2LpasnAekxOyGBA&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:18&biw=1024&bih=587

Too bad he didn't know it was all about tan/chum punching. ;)

[t_niehoff]

That it is not a grappling art.


OK. I think it is like old-school western boxing which was striking and grappling combined.



I agree.

Aye, short-arse like me cannot always get above the incoming punch with a "jum-ing" action.

You can only really do that when you are already attached.

[k gledhill]

Not true Kevin. I've had a play with some of the CSLWCK "entry level" (my term) drills when some of my friends started training in the system. If I remember correctly one of their "cutting punch" drills trained this aspect. The "jum-ing" punch cut across the elbow crease of the incoming punch letting your elbow control theirs.

tan also does this.....but the elbow spreads towards the flanked side...jum goes in towards the flanked side...if they alternate ,each punch works to maitain defense as they strike....

btw I am training a guy who previously did CSLWCK and he is also another who said " how come I have never heard this way before ? " : ) he uses his upper body and sacrifices his axis line for 'over trapping " easy to deal with and there are no striking techniques developed in chi-sao , just the same 'ol sticky, controlling stuff , everyone and his mom uses .....

he admitted as I did and GH ...its a superior fighting idea to ' clinch fighting'


it has to be experienced to understand....

it pains me to think how long I went doing the 'sticky hand/ wrist 'way' ...

[Knifefighter]

tan also does this.....but the elbow spreads towards the flanked side...jum goes in towards the flanked side...if they alternate ,each punch works to maitain defense as they strike....

btw I am training a guy who previously did CSLWCK and he is also another who said " how come I have never heard this way before ? " : ) he uses his upper body and sacrifices his axis line for 'over trapping " easy to deal with and there are no striking techniques developed in chi-sao , just the same 'ol sticky, controlling stuff , everyone and his mom uses .....

he admitted as I did and GH ...its a superior fighting idea to ' clinch fighting'


it has to be experienced to understand....

it pains me to think how long I went doing the 'sticky hand/ wrist 'way' ...

Still waiting for those sparring clips.

[k gledhill]

Terence you can't argue what I do because your replies show that you haven't got the ' idea'.....like I said it has to be explained in 'fighting' .
Another problem in explanations I found, is that we all share terms and names but piece them together differently. leading to assumptions of similarity and experiencing the same results....NOT !

[CFT]

he uses his upper body and sacrifices his axis line for 'over trapping " easy to deal with and there are no striking techniques developed in chi-sao , just the same 'ol sticky, controlling stuff , everyone and his mom uses .....It doesn't sound like what little I have seen of it. But good that you are able to "help" someone along in their training. I don't train formally these days, but I'd probably only train Wing Chun again if it was CSL or WSL.

[k gledhill]

It doesn't sound like what little I have seen of it. But good that you are able to "help" someone along in their training. I don't train formally these days, but I'd probably only train Wing Chun again if it was CSL or WSL.

if I could go back to '84 and restart I would do it the way I do now...Philipp has been developing this idea since then too...I feel like a green beginner next to him.

[LoneTiger108]

Another problem in explanations I found, is that we all share terms and names but piece them together differently. leading to assumptions of similarity and experiencing the same results....NOT !

Perhaps you can answer my question then:

What's the difference between chisau and looksau?

I think that what you discuss most of the time is related to looksau and what others talk of is chisau. I have a very distinct explanation of both but I'm wondering if anyone else here does??

[t_niehoff]

Terence you can't argue what I do because your replies show that you haven't got the ' idea'.....like I said it has to be explained in 'fighting' .
Another problem in explanations I found, is that we all share terms and names but piece them together differently. leading to assumptions of similarity and experiencing the same results....NOT !

But you are not fighting -- certainly not with decent nonWCK people. You are only 'sparring" with people you've pre-programmed (to move in similar ways).

Your -- or should I credit Bayer -- "idea" is nothing new. It is a small piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the whole puzzle.

This "idea" of yours is only a small part of what Yip Man taught. If you look at any photos of Yip "demonstrating" with a partner, he is always controlling while striking (like in the link to the photo I put up). This is historically what all the "old timers" in the other branches of WCK taught. And, in fact, Hawkins has written about how when he went back to Yip to continue with his training after finishing university, that Yip spent most of the time training him in controlling technique and "the control level of wing chun". Hawkins calls this "the ultimate game."

Nor is it the approach WSL taught. If you look at Gary Lam (who spent 14 years as WSL's student, assistant instructor, and as one of his fighters -- Bayer wasn't one of those, was he?) and see how he describes what he teaches http://www.garylamwingchun.com/index.php?view=article&catid=34%3Aarticles&id=68%3Agary-lam-wing-chun-an-introduction-by-gregory-e-leblanc&option=com_content&Itemid=113 you see that it pertains to not only striking the opponent (the tan/chum punching) but to also using controlling actions as both defense and to set up offense.

[k gledhill]

you're so desperate !

[t_niehoff]

you're so desperate !

Brilliant retort from someone who can't defend his view.

[k gledhill]

you can't handle the truth ! 30 years wasted, start to mull that one over....

[k gledhill]

Perhaps you can answer my question then:

What's the difference between chisau and looksau?

I think that what you discuss most of the time is related to looksau and what others talk of is chisau. I have a very distinct explanation of both but I'm wondering if anyone else here does??

what's yours ?

[Graham H]

If you look at Gary Lam (who spent 14 years as WSL's student, assistant instructor, and as one of his fighters -- Bayer wasn't one of those, was he?)

Does it matter???? I don't like Gary Lams way of VT. If I did I would be part of it. In fact Gary Lam would be way down the pecking order if I wasnt fortunate enough to have PB as my instructor!!!

[LSWCTN1]

Does it matter???? I don't like Gary Lams way of VT. If I did I would be part of it. In fact Gary Lam would be way down the pecking order if I wasnt fortunate enough to have PB as my instructor!!!

yet David Peterson has written that Gary Lam is one of the few who he believes could still develop his own skill level...

horses for courses - PB seems extremely good, and comes across humble too, good fighting mentality and i'm sure good students also... but its not the only way that works you know :)

[LoneTiger108]

Does it matter???? I don't like Gary Lams way of VT. If I did I would be part of it. In fact Gary Lam would be way down the pecking order if I wasnt fortunate enough to have PB as my instructor!!!

:D And I thought I had 'idol' issues back in the day when I thought my Sifu was a super being! :eek:

If nobody can even attempt to answer my simple question, then why should I even be bothered trying to explain my views?

FWIW Even my Sifu has attempted to explain this on Facebook and his video went down a treat ;) I believe that it is very misunderstood, but hey! So am I half the time :eek:

[t_niehoff]

you can't handle the truth ! 30 years wasted, start to mull that one over....

This should be your mantra.

[t_niehoff]

Does it matter???? I don't like Gary Lams way of VT. If I did I would be part of it. In fact Gary Lam would be way down the pecking order if I wasnt fortunate enough to have PB as my instructor!!!

There are lots of WSL students. Whether or not you "like" Lam's "way" misses the point. You are looking at instructors from your fantasy POV -- and if the closer what they teach is to your "vision" uninformed of WCK, the more you like them. When you get out of your bubble and look around/train with other good people and other branches of WCK, it will expand your perspective.

Lam spent more time training directly with Wong than Bayer, he was Wong's assistant instructor (it seems Wong did like how Lam taught), and was one of his fighters. Moreover, what he teaches is in line with many other of Wong students.

Not only that, but generally his"way" is consistent with what comes down to us from the ancestors -- that WCK is a way of controlling while striking.

In fact, what Bayer teaches is simply a small part of WCK. Maybe that's all he knows or all he is good at. It just has limited usefulness -- and he, or his students, seem to have mistaken it for the whole. It's just like people who think WCK is all about simul blocking and hitting followed by chain punching -- both tactics have limited usefulness and are only a small part of the art.

[k gledhill]

This should be your mantra.

not mine Terence....;)

[t_niehoff]

not mine Terence....;)

All you need to do is go to a decent MMA or MT or boxing gym, gear up, and see. I know, I know, you are too busy beating up multiple opponents in bars and in dark alleys, but then it should be easy for you to handle some sport fighters. Or, you can keep "sparring" with your students who you have programmed to fight poorly and keep living in your fantasy world where tan/chum punching deals with all things.

[Graham H]

:D And I thought I had 'idol' issues back in the day when I thought my Sifu was a super being! :eek:

If nobody can even attempt to answer my simple question, then why should I even be bothered trying to explain my views?

FWIW Even my Sifu has attempted to explain this on Facebook and his video went down a treat ;) I believe that it is very misunderstood, but hey! So am I half the time :eek:

yaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnn!!!!

[k gledhill]

All you need to do is go to a decent MMA or MT or boxing gym, gear up, and see. I know, I know, you are too busy beating up multiple opponents in bars and in dark alleys, but then it should be easy for you to handle some sport fighters. Or, you can keep "sparring" with your students who you have programmed to fight poorly and keep living in your fantasy world where tan/chum punching deals with all things.


reality sucks eh ? I have to wear shorts , fight a guy my weight under rules and not worry if hes go a knife :D piece of cake.;)

your naive in a weird way...

[Graham H]

There are lots of WSL students. Whether or not you "like" Lam's "way" misses the point. You are looking at instructors from your fantasy POV -- and if the closer what they teach is to your "vision" uninformed of WCK, the more you like them. When you get out of your bubble and look around/train with other good people and other branches of WCK, it will expand your perspective.

Lam spent more time training directly with Wong than Bayer, he was Wong's assistant instructor (it seems Wong did like how Lam taught), and was one of his fighters. Moreover, what he teaches is in line with many other of Wong students.

Not only that, but generally his"way" is consistent with what comes down to us from the ancestors -- that WCK is a way of controlling while striking.

In fact, what Bayer teaches is simply a small part of WCK. Maybe that's all he knows or all he is good at. It just has limited usefulness -- and he, or his students, seem to have mistaken it for the whole. It's just like people who think WCK is all about simul blocking and hitting followed by chain punching -- both tactics have limited usefulness and are only a small part of the art.

yawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn!!!!

[goju]

All you need to do is go to a decent MMA or MT or boxing gym, gear up, and see. I know, I know, you are too busy beating up multiple opponents in bars and in dark alleys, but then it should be easy for you to handle some sport fighters. Or, you can keep "sparring" with your students who you have programmed to fight poorly and keep living in your fantasy world where tan/chum punching deals with all things.

He should really pretend instead he is a crime fighting lawyer by day and a hardcore martial artist by night who mysteriously wont answer what gyms he trains at and what fighters hes sparred so his secret identity doesnt slip out ! He can grow a wide waist line and hang off of some old geriatric fighters reproductive organs as well while polishing his keyboard kung fu skills on a daily basis!

god i kill me :D

[k gledhill]

Terenece had a documented "scuffle" with 2 !! plains clothes cops , once...and that's it.
so treat his input about reality fightin accordingly, : )

[t_niehoff]

Yes, I know . . . I don't go fight multiple opponents in bars and dark alleys like you guys. I have this crazy notion that if you can't do it in a gym against decently skilled opponents that you won't be able to do it on the str33t. But then, I don't engage in magical thinking.

Gojo, I've answered this all before. You are just a troll. You don't even train WCK, yet you come on to a WCK forum when you don't even practice the art. You can't contribute anything of substance since you know nothing of WCK.

It's the same-old-same-old with you guys. When you can't offer anything of substance, all you are left with is the old personal attack to try and distract people off the subject. And that includes making sh1t up.

Kevin says his/Bayer's approach works in fighting. That you can only see it and understand it in fighting. He posted "like I said it has to be explained in 'fighting'." That is HIS claim. Yet we never see Bayer or him or anyone "explain" it, despite posting lots of videos. Of course, he has stories about multiple opponents in bars (doesn't everyone?).

What Bayer teaches is a small part of WCK. It's nothing unique or special. And it has limited usefulness. As I indicated, this was not all that Yip taught and wasn't the core of his teaching. Nor was it Wong's. Bayer has just taken in and mistaken it for the end-all-be-all of WCK. He's wrong.

And if the only way it can be explain is by fighting -- AS KEVIN HIMSELF SAID -- then the only way to show he's not wrong is by fighting. So why show videos of anything else?

[LoneTiger108]

yaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnn!!!!

I'm glad to bore you :D

Writing silly comments seems to be the trend of the day, and I've asked you and kev a very simple question too. Can't answer that one or something?? Well, without the answer I would be tempted to even agree with T here, and I don't like doing that too often :mad:

You're learning from a WSL student who seems to be on his own tip, his own journey. Maybe this is good for you, but I wouldn't say it's good for the WSL family if there are key differences with other more senior disciples, of which there seems to be a few.

Hang on. I forgot. Fooksau is a punch. And that's all it is. Oh yeah! I get it now... :o

YAAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN!!! ;)

[SAAMAG]

All you need to do is go to a decent MMA or MT or boxing gym, gear up, and see. I know, I know, you are too busy beating up multiple opponents in bars and in dark alleys, but then it should be easy for you to handle some sport fighters. Or, you can keep "sparring" with your students who you have programmed to fight poorly and keep living in your fantasy world where tan/chum punching deals with all things.

It really is a simple solution isn't it? Too bad most will not take the advice. People don't realize that simply going to a gym where people spar often and don't confine themselves to doctrine outside of pragmatism will actually HELP their wing chun.

On a side note, I've got a wing chun training partner who is now going to start going my muay thai gym to experiment with his wing chun and experience new training regimens.

[goju]

It's the same-old-same-old with you guys. When you can't offer anything of substance, all you are left with is the old personal attack to try and distract people off the subject. And that includes making sh1t up.




I know, I know, you are too busy beating up multiple opponents in bars and in dark alleys, but then it should be easy for you to handle some sport fighters. Or, you can keep "sparring" with your students who you have programmed to fight poorly and keep living in your fantasy world where tan/chum punching deals with all things.

And what is this exactly? Because to any literate person this is clearly a personal attack one you toss around on a daily basis on here as well mind you.

Which is amusing as you havent fought, sparred with any fighters, trained anyone to fight or helped prepare them to fight, etc.etc so you are ironically exactly what you accuse everyone here of being and that is a fantasy martial artists who has no shred of proof he even trains at all.

Posting videos of your training and sparring would prove alot especially since you as you claim know how to make your art work in a non Wing chun environment. Video proof of this supposed bold claim would silence all the critics and put the arts practioners on the right track in their training if they saw you in action. Remember you are supposed to be so concerned with the welfare of the system and angered over what people do with it so if you posted video showing how to make it function properly you would be doing a great service to The wing chun community and the Kung fu community in general. That is, of course if you trully do care about the art an are not just some hobbyist who likes to hang around online and get into internet arguements.

Further you don't know anyone here, you havent met them.trained with them saw them in action, etc.etc so your claim about how they train or what they are doing are ridiculous as you easily fall under the same criticism. if you can't preform what you claim ( and i mean YOU specifically not anyone else.) than all your words on here are nothing but theoretical.

[t_niehoff]

^ Troll.

You know nothing of WCK and haven't trained WCK. So why do you post on a WCK forum? You can't even have substantive discussion since you don't know anything about WCK. Go train some WCK.

Troll.

[goju]

So making sense in a forum full of the nonsenical is being a troll? riiiiight

''You know nothing of WCK and haven't trained WCK''

This is strictly concerning your behaviour and your claims. You could practice Wombat Combat for all i care.

Have you met phil? Gledhill? Yung chun? Victor? any of the others you bicker with day in and day out? What did you do with these people you met? Did you just talk. work out, actually spar?

Again stop making excuses and post video of you sparring and training with fighters with records where you show how to use kung fu in a functional manner. Opinions of you aside, we would all be genuinely curious to see someones approach concerning this. It would be a breath of fresh air for all Tma if there was someone who can get his or her art to work out side of its comfort zone.

Your passion you claim to have should inspire you to show everyone how its done and influence their training. Unless of course again this is all just talk and nothing more.

[t_niehoff]

^ Troll.

You know nothing of WCK and haven't trained WCK. So why do you post on a WCK forum? You can't even have substantive discussion since you don't know anything about WCK. Go train some WCK.

Troll.

PS - I am not going to discuss things with you because you are a troll who doesn't even train WCK. The only response you will get is my pointing out you are a troll. And I can keep doing this for as long as you want.

[goju]

It's funny how you respond to rational notions and common sense. You immediately shut down and refuse to answer anything strait forward and honestly. Why does it appear like you are hiding alot concerning your abilties?

Ah and i see you deleting your post where you claim youve "touched hands with people" as well...

So much for that supposed passion of yours .

good day old boy.:D

[t_niehoff]

^ Troll.

You know nothing of WCK and haven't trained WCK. So why do you post on a WCK forum? You can't even have substantive discussion since you don't know anything about WCK. Go train some WCK.

Troll.

[Liddel]

To the OP - ignoring the D-ck measuring.....

The position of the fook IME is dependent on the position of the touch point with your opponents bridge. In the isolated drill that is Chi Dan Sau that would have the wrist on the center rather than the knuckle. In sparring that can change as you and your opponent continually move so feel it for your self its prupose is to be usefull to you in the moment, maintaining your control of the center.

You can experience this more in poon sau as you move more and contact becomes more along the lengh of your opponents forearm as you push pull moe up down and left to right rather than the more isolated right in front Dan Chi Sau.

In sparring it changes IME from a striking range into clinch range but generall its anywhere from the outside edge of the body all the way to the center depending on the angle your body is facing.

I notice from uber cool youtube vids alot of people dont use the wrist and we see more palm to forearm contact this negates the ability to use inch power from the wrist to gain space and control the center.

As for Fook sau being all about the elbow and punching. Well that is a by-product IMO but one should think about being taught to transition to other actions using the wrists.
Fook turns to tan and jum etc in different parts of formal VT training and it also is used with the elbow in the center Chi sau / and used with the elbow tight up against the side of the body - saam bai faat section of SLT, where you in fact can still use the wrist power without the elbow as a second gate, it supports the weight/force on your wirst but is not in your center.

So IMO Fook is more about wrist force than elbow, although without proper elbow position the control with fook starts to waver.

This is just my experience with it. Dont focus on "a perfect fook sau position" but rather great fook control which is dependent on the contact point of your bridge.

Hope it helps OP.

DREW

[Graham H]

I'm glad to bore you :D

Writing silly comments seems to be the trend of the day, and I've asked you and kev a very simple question too. Can't answer that one or something?? Well, without the answer I would be tempted to even agree with T here, and I don't like doing that too often :mad:

You're learning from a WSL student who seems to be on his own tip, his own journey. Maybe this is good for you, but I wouldn't say it's good for the WSL family if there are key differences with other more senior disciples, of which there seems to be a few.

Hang on. I forgot. Fooksau is a punch. And that's all it is. Oh yeah! I get it now... :o

YAAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN!!! ;)

The reason I yawned my friend is because you havenb't got a clue what you is on about!!! :D

How can you know such things???:confused:

How do you know whats good for the WSL family???.........simple!!!!.....you don't!!

Au revoir.

[Graham H]

Hang on. I forgot. Fooksau is a punch. And that's all it is. Oh yeah! I get it now... :o



October 27th.....make your way to Peterborough and then you can see first hand Philipps way of Ving Tsun Spencer me old mate. I'll be there too so you can try some of your weird wing chun on me....never know you might enjoy the weekend...;)

[Graham H]

So IMO Fook is more about wrist force than elbow,



= probably the worse statement about VT of all time!!!:D

[LoneTiger108]

October 27th.....make your way to Peterborough and then you can see first hand Philipps way of Ving Tsun Spencer me old mate. I'll be there too so you can try some of your weird wing chun on me....never know you might enjoy the weekend...;)

With respect, send me an official invitation to The Yum Yeurng Academy and I may come along, especially if it's a weekend. :D Whos hosting it? What's the content etc? AND is it open for non WSL family? As most I hear of are not.

As for 'trying some of my wierd wing chun on you', you're always welcome to visit me in London too. I have my own private studio and I'm always happy to exchange for experience and networking, although I get the feeling you just want to prove something. Which is all fine with me as I'm always learning...

[LoneTiger108]

The reason I yawned my friend is because you havenb't got a clue what you is on about!!! :D

How can you know such things???:confused:

How do you know whats good for the WSL family???.........simple!!!!.....you don't!!

Au revoir.

How do I know about the WSL family?? Maybe I only know what I've researched. Maybe I know from hands on experience. Maybe I know because it's clearly evident from your posts. Maybe I don't know anything about WSL at all!

You sound like you will only respond to me standing in front of you, so if that's what you're looking for are you willing to put in the effort?

[k gledhill]

Fook sao isnt about the wrist, unfortunately on a 'visible' level, most see the hand doing huen sao to wu sao, (no jum sao,elbow in, preceding the move of the elbow out to make a wu sao) the wu sao then moves back with the elbow out, then the wrist relaxes and people see the 'hand' because you cant see the ENERGY of the tan and jum elbows or the fok elbow as easily , pushing inwards and forwards ....

IOW no explanations given and guys copy the external/visible actions, they then try to equate the hands to use in chi-sao, then try to work the same things in fighting...:o

they use a majority of wristing action as 'seen' in SLT to dissolve a tan sao without using or ever involving the elbows...then the dan chi-sao gets the wrist developed :D

The system is simple and uses simple actions with more complex available, if the simple break down, or are thwarted by certain actions...Bil gee, etc...

[LoneTiger108]

So is this where the Seminar will be??

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pborowingchun1/main.htm

[Liddel]

= probably the worse statement about VT of all time!!!:D

What a great guy, just say my comment is the worst of all time with no reason why...

Im so fine with my chun say what you want, im not phased - but at least state why mate...

One could argue its not only about wrist behaviour/force and id be open to that but your comment makes me think what someone with your POV thinks the purpose of using Jum from Fook as a basic idea for blocking a gate which is universal in most lines of Wing chun introduced in single stiicking hands is for ?. Fook Jum Da. Ae you pressing with the elbow because thats laughable imo.

Wrist force from fook to jum supported by the elbow and wrist force from jum into the punch.

Im not surprised theres people like you out there i think wrist force in VT is the second biggest aspect being lost IMO (well second to competent weapon use).

Stop resting on the lorals of PB "me old mate". oh hold on he only has one wrist and he does great without two but one can see why it might not be the focus :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

Fook sao isnt about the wrist, unfortunately on a 'visible' level, most see the hand doing huen sao to wu sao

From my POV its not what i see but what i can do with it. were both not newbies mate.

If you have good inch power or wrist force K which is introduced in SLT and developed from single sticking hands up... it can be useful in a bunch of different areas.

Im not saying the elbow plays no part at all. What im saying is that if one developes good wrist power through actions like huen and fook then creating space and collapsing bridges becomes much easier and more effective when used in total with elbow horse etc.

I can press a bridge down with fook turning to Jum (good wrist hinge mechanic) then press/thrust foward with the elbow for the punch becuase my elbow force is not pre engaged in directing the bridge down to begin with. Thats one example. The elbow is there for me to support the hands and ive heard your calls about wristing but i find its a balance thats situation dependent. They work together.

But to think an action that has a specific body mechanic and behaviour all on its own is more to do with another area of the body IMO is a stretch....

WSL and my teacher were very similar back in the day and even today i find my lineage is closest to WSL but our view is the wrist is the first gate and the elbow is the second so this is where my mindset is coming from....

Not arguing ,not calling people different to me wrong, just offering my take.

[Graham H]

So is this where the Seminar will be??

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pborowingchun1/main.htm


No, that club isnt part of our organization anymore.

[Graham H]

How do I know about the WSL family?? Maybe I only know what I've researched. Maybe I know from hands on experience. Maybe I know because it's clearly evident from your posts. Maybe I don't know anything about WSL at all!

You sound like you will only respond to me standing in front of you, so if that's what you're looking for are you willing to put in the effort?

Researching isnt good enough....you need contact with the right people. Hands on experience??? with who????. Apart from Des Spencer there are no WSL clubs in your area that teach the WSL method...(please don't say Clive Potter ffs). You can't tell from my posts what my VT is like. Just like I never could from reading Philipps writings and watching videos. Being in the same room is a whole different ball game. I know you don't know anything about the WSL method or we would not being disagreeing about things. :D

GH

[Graham H]

What a great guy, just say my comment is the worst of all time with no reason why...


Wrist force from fook to jum supported by the elbow and wrist force from jum into the punch.

Im not surprised theres people like you out there i think wrist force in VT is the second biggest aspect being lost IMO (well second to competent weapon use).

Stop resting on the lorals of PB "me old mate". oh hold on he only has one wrist and he does great without two but one can see why it might not be the focus :rolleyes:

"mate".....don't take it personally. :D

If you think the wrist is important then no point in me trying to explain otherwise...have a nice day,

[Graham H]

You sound like you will only respond to me standing in front of you, so if that's what you're looking for are you willing to put in the effort?

Yes, for sure. I will be in touch. ;)

[Liddel]

"mate".....don't take it personally. :D

If you think the wrist is important then no point in me trying to explain otherwise...have a nice day,

Dont worry i wont, i just come here to discuss, rather than put points of view down. Clearly your here to talk it up rather than contribute if your not willing to back up your

probably the worse statement about VT of all time!!!
call.

all talk, no substance.

Ive got a fiver that sez lonetiger never hears from you... lol

[k gledhill]

I trained the wrist too for years so dont feel like I wasnt a wrister too :D the dan chi should train to bring the elbows in, prior to striking each other in a 1-2 action , later becoming 1 punching action WITH the incoporation of the elbows energy ....then alignment, then unity with the body structure, then mobility, facing, dealing with attempts to stop the entry , counter attacking , side-angle stepping, pivoting etc... dummy. All developing the striking attacking with elbow angles .

The wrists X the centerline creating the 'sweep', the elbows generate the force and angles , the movement the tactical engagement.

[LSWCTN1]

Researching isnt good enough....you need contact with the right people. Hands on experience??? with who????. Apart from Des Spencer there are no WSL clubs in your area that teach the WSL method...(please don't say Clive Potter ffs). You can't tell from my posts what my VT is like. Just like I never could from reading Philipps writings and watching videos. Being in the same room is a whole different ball game. I know you don't know anything about the WSL method or we would not being disagreeing about things. :D

GH

you do know of the basement, right?

Desmond Spencer may be the only PB guy about, but not the only WSL...

[Graham H]

Dont worry i wont, i just come here to discuss, rather than put points of view down. Clearly your here to talk it up rather than contribute if your not willing to back up your

call.

all talk, no substance.

Ive got a fiver that sez lonetiger never hears from you... lol

Why not make it 10er ya poof!!! :mad:

In our lineage nothing is at the wrist, the elbow defends and the fist punches. Simulatneous attack and defence. The elbow is the important factor NOT the wrist.

I understand that you didnt like me belittling you so this is your way of taking your anger out!!! Do you need a hand picking up your toys? :rolleyes:

This forum is full of this childish banter and for what its worth I find it entertaining.

Bring it on Chuck!!! :D

GH

[Graham H]

you do know of the basement, right?

Desmond Spencer may be the only PB guy about, but not the only WSL...

Ahhhhh The Basement....scary stuff :eek:

[CFT]

I think The Basement no longer exists as a location now that Nino Bernardo has moved to Spain. But there are "spin-offs" like "The Warehouse" (Guy Cofie) and "The Unit".

[LoneTiger108]

Researching isnt good enough....you need contact with the right people. Hands on experience??? with who????. Apart from Des Spencer there are no WSL clubs in your area that teach the WSL method...(please don't say Clive Potter ffs).

What have you got against Sifu Potter? Met him a few times and spent a year or two working with one of his senior students. Very humble gent and loyal to WSL til the end. You do know that he is still in contact with WSLs wife and son?? A true family man imho.


You can't tell from my posts what my VT is like. Just like I never could from reading Philipps writings and watching videos. Being in the same room is a whole different ball game. I know you don't know anything about the WSL method or we would not being disagreeing about things. :D

No use this ingenius thinking to reflect back onto yourself dude. You will only understand what I'm saying if we are in the same room, or if you learnt the same way I did :D Basically, we will always have disagreements because you're following what you've been told and I'm following a written curriculum. :rolleyes:

Still, I'm always here in London, to see you, Des or anyone else you feel can enlighten me into PBWSL methods. In the meantime, I will carry on the way I have as I'm quietly confident that I'm on a good path... ;)

[k gledhill]

yeah spencer , maybe you will end up like austin goh...

[k gledhill]

I chi saoed with Clive and some other basement guys...wasnt impressed.
Frankly once you find the information and functioning methods , one can decipher the mess or the lack of 'parts' making the whole up. Imo a LOT of guys wsl included are working on a slice short of a loaf....a sandwich short of a picnic....

you just have to maintain an open mind to others or you won't ever see that your missing a 'slice' or a 'sandwich' ...

[Graham H]

What have you got against Sifu Potter? Met him a few times and spent a year or two working with one of his senior students. Very humble gent and loyal to WSL til the end. You do know that he is still in contact with WSLs wife and son?? A true family man imho.



No use this ingenius thinking to reflect back onto yourself dude. You will only understand what I'm saying if we are in the same room, or if you learnt the same way I did :D Basically, we will always have disagreements because you're following what you've been told and I'm following a written curriculum. :rolleyes:

Still, I'm always here in London, to see you, Des or anyone else you feel can enlighten me into PBWSL methods. In the meantime, I will carry on the way I have as I'm quietly confident that I'm on a good path... ;)


I'll tell you what I have against "sifu" potter....I followed his BS for 5 years until I met "other" WSL instructors only to find out he knows as much about WSL's method as I know about farming in outer mongolia. I left soon after. That was reinforced even more when I met PB whom Clive spent most of his time slagging off. As he did with most other Teachers. My friend David Peterson included. Anyway that has already been rinsed on other forums. A lot of people left Clive after that so there is justice in the world. :D

I'll tell you another thing. I took Simo out one night in Hong Kong and told her I left Clive and went to Philipp and she was a very happy bunny. So was Chen Kin Man who Clive believes is his brother or something. lmao. CKM told me I am in the right place if I want to learn WSL method so you see Spencer there are things that you don't know.....in fact there is a lot. To quote Simo...."Philipp has my husbands thinking".........Im happy to have met the guy and even happier to actually have him as my Teacher.

In fact maybe its time that you and others realize that people like myself and Kevin Gledhill aren't blindly following a cult......Our eyes were opened to VT when we met PB......FACT!!!!!

Look at all the names that pop up to disagree with everything that we post......maybe its you who are wrong and not us....just maybe????

Whats it matter to you anyway??? You arent even in the WSL lineage.

I will look you up when im in London.....not to prove anything......because I generally think you are ok......I just dont like your idea of Ving Tsun. Humans are all different ;)

GH

[Graham H]

I chi saoed with Clive and some other basement guys...wasnt impressed.


...............as have many who also came to this conclusion.

[SAAMAG]

Ahhhh fook all of you!

[Jansingsang]

I chi saoed with Clive and some other basement guys...wasnt impressed.
Frankly once you find the information and functioning methods , one can decipher the mess or the lack of 'parts' making the whole up. Imo a LOT of guys wsl included are working on a slice short of a loaf....a sandwich short of a picnic....

you just have to maintain an open mind to others or you won't ever see that your missing a 'slice' or a 'sandwich' ...



Mr gledhill your entitled to your opinion about the Basement guys, but you are wrong in your assertion...I too trained at Victor Kan V.K.V.T. also when you were there .

You was his chief boy and you never had much anyways! From your own admission you were (Wristy). Imho no footwork are and still are Stiff basically you move like a Robot.. If anyone should be in any regret for Thirty something years of BS... I name you sir.... Kevin Gledhill Johnny come lately …

Now your Kissing Philips Butt thinking you can change a life’s time of programmed Garbage Into poetry in motion Ving tsun .. When Moy yat people came to Victors, you sh:*t yourself .Get the picture of the time frame now ahh ?

No way on gods earth could you have given any of the Basement guys a run for there money and you know it ! The Basement was the pinnacle in the eighties if you wanted to learn Wsl Ving tsun method in Europe :cool:

You Forget Nino Bernardo was the chief Representative for Wsl for the Whole of Europe! Many good fighters came from there, Who are respected teachers today, so who you trying to kid ? Not a poster here but for the record gotta keep it Real :rolleyes:

[Jansingsang]

Ahhhhh The Basement....scary stuff :eek:


As for you . You never was around to Run your Stupid gums about the Basement ..... you Newbie Puppy ! :D

[LoneTiger108]

In fact maybe its time that you and others realize that people like myself and Kevin Gledhill aren't blindly following a cult......Our eyes were opened to VT when we met PB......FACT!!!!!

Look at all the names that pop up to disagree with everything that we post......maybe its you who are wrong and not us....just maybe????

Whats it matter to you anyway??? You arent even in the WSL lineage.

I will look you up when im in London.....not to prove anything......because I generally think you are ok......I just dont like your idea of Ving Tsun. Humans are all different ;)

Apart from not really wanting to know your 'family business', I appreciate your insight although it is quite disturbing. I have always been interested in WSL and personally I have had no reason to think Sifu Potter wasn't a genuine gentleman. His student I worked with was agreat character, even if his chun was totally different we did find similarities! Sifu Potter even visited my Sifus school once when I was performing and was very repectful indeed. Maybe these are the traits that you have yet to learn in Kung Fu??!! They are just as important as being able to fight. :)

I too had my 'eyes opened' when I met Sifu Man, but maybe for many different reasons than your own experience. I wasn't in no cult either but I was overly passionate and a bit obsessive to be honest. I too have put in my time and am always open to exhange with 'decent' and like minded people.

With that in mind, I'm finding it hard to justify a meeting with you, Desmond or Kevin! What is there to gain for any of us? :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

yeah spencer , maybe you will end up like austin goh...

As for that comment, I will let it slide. :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Mr gledhill your entitled to your opinion about the Basement guys, but you are wrong in your assertion...I too trained at Victor Kan V.K.V.T. also when you were there .

You was his chief boy and you never had much anyways! From your own admission you were (Wristy). Imho no footwork are and still are Stiff basically you move like a Robot.. If anyone should be in any regret for Thirty something years of BS... I name you sir.... Kevin Gledhill Johnny come lately …

Now your Kissing Philips Butt thinking you can change a life’s time of programmed Garbage Into poetry in motion Ving tsun .. When Moy yat people came to Victors, you sh:*t yourself .Get the picture of the time frame now ahh ?

No way on gods earth could you have given any of the Basement guys a run for there money and you know it ! The Basement was the pinnacle in the eighties if you wanted to learn Wsl Ving tsun method in Europe :cool:

You Forget Nino Bernardo was the chief Representative for Wsl for the Whole of Europe! Many good fighters came from there, Who are respected teachers today, so who you trying to kid ? Not a poster here but for the record gotta keep it Real :rolleyes:

?? :D sounds like you have some issues , whats your name ? its not Victor is it ? ;)

Nino did chi-sao with one of V Kans seniors ( Arthur ) when i just started and Nino got his butt handed to him ;)...he plays a good guitar.

I handed Clive his butt at a seminar when he came on like a terminator,:o so theres no delusions about him compared to Philipp ;)

As for The Moy yat thing ?? dont know what your talking about ...Moy Yat came and we did chi-sao with each other....?? **** my pants, did I ? :D

i havent trained 30 years yet ...try to keep up with the facts before writing fiction. ;)

[Graham H]

Mr gledhill your entitled to your opinion about the Basement guys, but you are wrong in your assertion...I too trained at Victor Kan V.K.V.T. also when you were there .

You was his chief boy and you never had much anyways! From your own admission you were (Wristy). Imho no footwork are and still are Stiff basically you move like a Robot.. If anyone should be in any regret for Thirty something years of BS... I name you sir.... Kevin Gledhill Johnny come lately …

Now your Kissing Philips Butt thinking you can change a life’s time of programmed Garbage Into poetry in motion Ving tsun .. When Moy yat people came to Victors, you sh:*t yourself .Get the picture of the time frame now ahh ?

No way on gods earth could you have given any of the Basement guys a run for there money and you know it ! The Basement was the pinnacle in the eighties if you wanted to learn Wsl Ving tsun method in Europe :cool:

You Forget Nino Bernardo was the chief Representative for Wsl for the Whole of Europe! Many good fighters came from there, Who are respected teachers today, so who you trying to kid ? Not a poster here but for the record gotta keep it Real :rolleyes:

Are you the real Leung Jan????? lmfao

[Jansingsang]

?? :D sounds like you have some issues , whats your name ? its not Victor is it ? ;)

Nino did chi-sao with one of V Kans seniors ( Arthur ) when i just started and Nino got his butt handed to him ;)...he plays a good guitar.

I handed Clive his butt at a seminar when he came on like a terminator,:o so theres no delusions about him compared to Philipp ;)

As for The Moy yat thing ?? dont know what your talking about ...Moy Yat came and we did chi-sao with each other....?? **** my pants, did I ? :D

i havent trained 30 years yet ...try to keep up with the facts before writing fiction. ;)


Your deluding yourself Mr gledhill ... How can you be a Judge .. As a bare novice. Who got, there arse handed to them ?:eek:

Pssst Kev ...We both know you cant take the .. Victor out of the Kevin, or the kevin out of the victor ...... Thirty years plus gezzer!:D

Enough ! Of your fictionalization of fake events, that never took place in the first place.... What evidence Do you have to substantiate your claims ......Mate :rolleyes:

[Jansingsang]

Are you the real Leung Jan????? lmfao

Grow up Puppy:D

[k gledhill]

Your deluding yourself Mr gledhill ... How can you be a Judge .. As a bare novice. Who got, there arse handed to them ?:eek:

Pssst Kev ...We both know you cant take the .. Victor out of the Kevin, or the kevin out of the victor ...... Thirty years plus gezzer!:D

Enough ! Of your fictionalization of fake events, that never took place in the first place.... What evidence Do you have to substantiate your claims ......Mate :rolleyes:

Still waiting for a name ...mate. I started in '84 , can you add ? :D , Been with PB since '04, left VK several years before...

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ewslnyc/images/1%20Sifu%20Philipp%20Bayer%202004.jpg

fictionalization :) its easy to see even now the standards the 'basement' rose to on you tube,etc......;) who's deluded ?:D

You sound like your afraid to reveal your name ? how can we believe YOU when you wont even substantiate YOUR claims with a name...hmmm:rolleyes:

[Jansingsang]

Still waiting for a name ...mate. I started in '84 , can you add ? :D , Been with PB since '04, left VK several years before...



fictionalization :) its easy to see even now the standards the 'basement' rose to on you tube,etc......;) who's deluded ?:D

You sound like your afraid to reveal your name ? how can we believe YOU when you wont even substantiate YOUR claims with a name...hmmm:rolleyes:

Name ? for what ? stop wasting yourself ! Iam ole school no time for seeking publicity on a forum .But right is right and wrong is wrong and , you... Sir are wrong !

Mr gledhill your a very silly man, there's no videos depicting the basement on youtube..... Only the one with Wsl doing a seminar..... In fact were's your so called Sparring vids you were bragging about ....Why are we still waiting Kevvie baby :D ( fictionalization) again i believe:rolleyes: :D

[Sihing73]

Hello,

You want to know why WC is dying?

Consider this thread as an example;

Not only can different lineages not agree on things or how to do WC. But even those within the same lineage cannot agree. Heck, it seems to be proper nowadays to take pot shots at those, even ones seniors, and show a lack of respect because they do something differently than your Sifu does. All in the mantra of "my way is the better way" :o

It's funny to me how many of us think we know better than those who created or used the arts in application. While I am not a fac of the MMA Gym Rats ;) I have to say that if anyone has found the secrect pill to make thier WC the best than that person and their approach should be wiping up the floor with everyone else.

So far I have not seen that happen so it leads me to conclude, as I have said before, that WC is a highly personal art based on a conceptual approach to combat. There are examples from each lineage who can make that approach work for them so they must have merit in how they do things.

WC is dying because no one wants to put in the time to really understand the art and how to apply it. Instead, people tend to run to the current hot item and blend it with their "inferior" WC. One the hot item was BJJ and now it seems to be MMA or who knows maybe they are the same thing anymore :confused: In addition to not wanting to put in the work, many seem more focused on putting others down so they can point to their own "superiority" and enlarge their ego.

For the record, there is nothing wrong with exploring other arts and bringing concepts from those arts into WC. If you can adapt a technique and apply it from a WC perspective then I am all for it. Provided you have the time, money and inclination to do so. But, no one has the right to put down someone else just because they do things differently. What may be best for one may not be best for another.

You know, we had a great opportunity to use the internet and this forum to make our art better. To comminicate across lineages and distance and learn from one another. It's too bad that we would rather use this opportunity to bicker and browbeat one another.................but I guess that is the nature of man. I know I have been guilty of not always doing things the right way myself. :(

[k gledhill]

Name ? for what ? stop wasting yourself ! Iam ole school no time for seeking publicity on a forum .But right is right and wrong is wrong and , you... Sir are wrong !

Mr gledhill your a very silly man, there's no videos depicting the basement on youtube..... Only the one with Wsl doing a seminar..... In fact were's your so called Sparring vids you were bragging about ....Why are we still waiting Kevvie baby :D ( fictionalization) again i believe:rolleyes: :D

thought so ....a trolling bs artist.

I refer to the 'students' of the basement depicted in you tube, moron....

[Jansingsang]

thought so ....a trolling bs artist.

I refer to the 'students' of the basement depicted in you tube, moron....

The only troll is you mate... You belittle others just because they do it, another way other than your own ... Your a egotistical buffoon sir... When you cant bully your way in , you start name calling pathetic for grown man to behave in such a childish manner !
Iam outta here case closed Gledhill :(

[k gledhill]

The only troll is you mate... You belittle others just because they do it, another way other than your own ... Your a egotistical buffoon sir... When you cant bully your way in , you start name calling pathetic for grown man to behave in such a childish manner !
Iam outta here case closed Gledhill :(


man-up and use your real name kid. i always have, if someone doesnt agree with me they know my name and where to find me, unlike you son, coward.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW, IMO-WC isn't dying. KFO does not equal WC.
KFO has been dead for some time.

joy

[Graham H]

Grow up Puppy:D

No! Big Dog!!!!:D

[Jansingsang]

man-up and use your real name kid. i always have, if someone doesnt agree with me they know my name and where to find me, unlike you son, coward.

I believe your upset ....RATTLED YOUR CAGE... no laughing icons or anything :D
Man up - Kid - Son - coward ???

By George i think his lost the plot Holmes:rolleyes::D



CLOSED !

[Sihing73]

FWIW, IMO-WC isn't dying. KFO does not equal WC.
KFO has been dead for some time.

joy

Joy,

So true!! I should have differentiated. Our Forum is not what it could be.

However, there are a few I have met here whose knowledge and friendship I am blessed to have been exposed to.

[k gledhill]

I believe your upset ....RATTLED YOUR CAGE... no laughing icons or anything :D
Man up - Kid - Son - coward ???

By George i think his lost the plot Holmes:rolleyes::D



CLOSED !


not upset at all, amused, your hiding behind a forum name and are looking for ways to avoid that point, by asking if rattled etc.......:D what are you afraid of ?

[LoneTiger108]

Hello,

You want to know why WC is dying?

Not only can different lineages not agree on things or how to do WC. But even those within the same lineage cannot agree. Heck, it seems to be proper nowadays to take pot shots at those, even ones seniors, and show a lack of respect because they do something differently than your Sifu does. All in the mantra of "my way is the better way" :o

So true :o

Thing is, there are so many good practitioners out there and especially some of the guys I meet in London and the UK, that this forum does become a bit of a playground for the 'heediots' and a bickering pi$$ing match for people who haven't even been in the same room as eachother! :rolleyes:

Every family has it's issues, where I originate (Lee Shing) has also had some serious conflicts in the past with Ip Man family and within our own offspring, and it takes a whole generation of students who actually WANT to change to make a positive impact for the future generations.

I guess some people here just haven't learnt any code of conduct at all... and if that is the case, they really have no business trying to teach Martial Arts to anyone let alone giving any advice on here! :mad:

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJpXq3fK_ic&feature=related
Chinese characters are simplified drawings. The character for Weng Chun is missing the radical gong/speak. The radical part of Wing Chun depicts a "rectangular" mouth emitting sounds depicted by the lines emanating from the mouth. Likewise, the character fook depicts and man standing over/controlling a dog. Don't believe me talk to a "scholar" of Chinese. Some of the Wing Chun Sifu that taught English speakers didn't have a good command of English. So tan sao was translated as palm up block which is not correct. Fortunately for me City College of CUNY (the poor man's Harvard) taught Cantonese which I studied for 3 years. Tan means to spread or disperse. I have no clue why I still see "palm up" block on some Wing Chun sites when the owners of the site are native speakers. Are they just trying to dismiss us Westerners?
Yo, my Wing Chun brothers. LEARN the fricken characters so you have a more fully understanding of their meanings. I didn't have the internet back in the 70's, You younger guys do ;)

[Vajramusti]

"Tan means to spread or disperse. I have no clue why I still see "palm up" block on some Wing Chun sites when the owners of the site are native speakers. Are they just trying to dismiss us Westerners?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No big deal Phil. Lots of wing chun teachers taught and teach by showing the correct motion and
correcting the serious student's motions.They are not trying to teach written Chinese 101 or 201 or 301.

There is a lot to tan sao in wing chun besides "spreading"..though spreading can be a literati-literal meaning. Context plays a role in assigning meaning---"running away from work" could mean taking too long a coffee break, rather than literally running away.

Also- without getting into crosss lineage issues-I correct folk's tans which are held like a mirror in front of the face by having their palm "up" with the fingers forward.

Not debating =just sharing a POV.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

"Tan means to spread or disperse. I have no clue why I still see "palm up" block on some Wing Chun sites when the owners of the site are native speakers. Are they just trying to dismiss us Westerners?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No big deal Phil. Lots of wing chun teachers taught and teach by showing the correct motion and
correcting the serious student's motions.They are not trying to teach written Chinese 101 or 201 or 301.

There is a lot to tan sao in wing chun besides "spreading"..though spreading can be a literati-literal meaning. Context plays a role in assigning meaning---"running away from work" could mean taking too long a coffee break, rather than literally running away.

Also- without getting into crosss lineage issues-I correct folk's tans which are held like a mirror in front of the face by having their palm "up" with the fingers forward.

Not debating =just sharing a POV.

joy chaudhuri

Debating can be a good thing. Especially with someone as experienced as yourself.

[LoneTiger108]

tan elbow spreads
jum elbow contracts
bong elbow up
jut elbow back and down
fok sao elbow neutral
etc...

As you seem to be all about the elbows, how about sharing the 'actual' terms for the elbow?

An example: When there is an intent the term will reflect that use, rather than using the seed of bong tan fook and put any translation or interpretation you like ;) Some positions like Doon Jang, Dip Jang, Shue Jang are doing what you're suggesting and are core to understanding Looksau.

As for the language and our differences, I've said many times before that language is the key to WCK. Unfortunately there are now issues with dialects and romanization, but as Phil has quite rightly suggested we should all be looking at the characters themselves and delving deeper into their make-up. We are all very lucky to have the internet at our disposal coz in my time I only had one dictionary and an impatient Sifu!

If you are ignorant to the chinese language, then your WCK will only suffer imho. ;)

[k gledhill]

I learned to read, write and speak cantonese.. didn't help my VT : )

[LoneTiger108]

I learned to read, write and speak cantonese.. didn't help my VT : )

Just a thought, but does that mean you were taught Wing Chun in English?! :eek:

[Graham H]

Just a thought, but does that mean you were taught Wing Chun in English?! :eek:

I am being taught in English. I don't understand Cantonese. The system that I learn is made up of concepts.

Siu Nim Tau = (First Form) Young Idea

Siu Lim Tau = (First Form) Young Idea pertaining to the development of the elbow

Cham Kiu = (Second Form) Seeking/Finding The Bridge

Chum Kiu = Fighting the easiest way and straight to the target

Biu Ji = (Third Form) Pointing Fingers

Bil Jee = Looking for the easiest way to survive

Muk Yan Jong = Wooden Dummy Form

Muk Yan Jong = Elbow, Timing and precision development

Luk Dim Boon Gwan = 6.5 Point Pole Form

Luk Dim Boon Kwan = Elbow, Timing and precision development

Baat Jaam Do = Eight Slashing/Cutting Knives Form

Baat Jaam Do = Easiest way to fight against any other weapon (except firearms)

Tan Sau = Spreading Hand

Tan Sau = Improvement for the elbow for the punch

Fook Sau = Subduing\Controlling Hand

Fook Sau = Improvement for the elbow for the punch

Jut Sau = Jerking Hand

Jut Sau = Part of an attack. Improvement for the next hit position.


........................................I could always go on and translate the rest of the actions if you like but I'll wait until the Chinese Englishmen rip all of the above to pieces. :D:D:D:D

I also used to learn Cantonese and my Teacher never heard of half the sayings in VT.....thats because they are Kung Fu terms for Kung Fu people.:D

GH

PS My translations are bold BTW ;)

[k gledhill]

Like GH, all the 'terms' mean "how to help to make another attack". ;) iow how to develop the elbows, SLT is elbows in...

[Knifefighter]

Still waiting for those sparring clips. How many weeks does it take to load up a couple of clips to utube?

[k gledhill]

hopefully in the next week or 2...

[Graham H]

Still waiting for those sparring clips. How many weeks does it take to load up a couple of clips to utube?

Why are you so eager to see sparring clips???? :confused:

GH

[YungChun]

Hey Kevin....

What's your take on Wan Kam? Some of the moves he does seem to deviate just a tad from your espoused 'WSL' method..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxp4SJt7V7M

[t_niehoff]

I can teach you VT without any terms in Chinese, its called translating :D


Assuming you can translate accurately. and, there is more to it than simple translation.



the translation is only relevant to another VT student...asking a guy off the street to tell you whats bong mean or fac sao or tut sao and you are defeating yourself, they can show you what THEY think it is...but they dont have clue how to apply it in fghting with the WHOLE IDEA as well....


What makes you think that you or Bayer have a clue?



ASK a guy who has spent his whole life training and fighting with the system under the guidance of YM for the longest....the list gets short really quick and the terms open up a different picture .


Trying to get by on WSL's "credentials". I'm sorry to tell you this but WSL is dead. And Bayer is not WSL. Bayer hasn't fought anyone -- certainly not anyone good. He may have trained with WSL but that doesn't mean anything.

You don't get skill -- or understanding -- from your teacher or your teacher's teacher. You get it through your training, from your s[parring partners. You earn it yourself through your own hard work.



IOW you get a cohesive line of thought with the arm shapes losing the literal 'term' and taking on a specific 'dissection' of an arm/action and its relationship to the centerline as we face and shift attacking /counter attacking.


"Line of thought"? What a load of bunk.



Its a physical exchange of force, timing, distance....etc. Words are limited to identifying a shape from another during basic training, ie fok sao is used in chi-sao, but the by-product is what we fight with, tan sao elbow spreads as it hits in chi-sao, but when you fight its not going to look like tan....just a punch that allows the elbow to move off-line. Same as Jum sao, its a punch that is the opposite to tan elbow spreading...it has to be, to back up the other arm and vice versa....


You've got it all wrong. The terms do not describe shapes at all, even during "basic training" -- and it is ALL basic training, btw. They describe ACTIONS that you are performing.

The other thing is that there is a Chinese/Cantonese term for "elbow", and if tan sao was a "spreading elbow" as you suggest then it would be called tan jaang not tan sao (spreading arm).



And terence we dont just fight with tan /jum ...duh :D


You don't fight at all except in your imagination.



What most people SEE is the egg-beater from hell and a lead leg blast, you mention elbows and controlling elbows or spreading elbows ,elbows contacting inwards and down, elbows up etc....they are doing it, but the terms they got made them focus on the hands /wrists from chi-sao misinterpretation.

if I say tan sao it means elbow spreads away from the centerline..


Which indicates you don't grasp what "tan" (spreading) refers to. It is not "spreading away from the centerline". In the SNT (which shows you how to perform the action), your tan sao doesn't spread away from your centerline.



How often does the tan sao ' hand ' leave the centerline during chi-sao ? during SLT ?
during CK, Dummy.....answer ? :D never, why ? because if you leave the centerline so does the alignment of that arm striking...


Tan sao isn't a shape, it is an action.



The whole drilling thing is facing with aligned striking arms that have techniques inbuilt from the drills to deal with interception on the line while we are attacking. If you dont know the simple idea you rely on over-trapping /controlling with lops and paks etc...slowing you down and making you rely more on upper body stance /axis shifting. Something a large person would get away with in a chi-sao exchange. But add the dimension of no pre-contact and they are at your mercy, simply because they rely on CONTACT to function.

How often does doing a vertical palm strike in chi-sao from tan sao, make your elbow try to spread the fok sao/jum strike away from your centerline ? answer every time.


Your - or Bayer's -- "simple idea" is just a small part of WCK's overall method. It works in a certain limited, specific context/situation but is not the answer to all combative problems as you seem to think. The proof is as close as your nearest MMA gym.



Things like "the hand strikes but does not return"....a punch without retraction aka as an inch punch....


The kuit you refer to is Chut Kuen Mo Fan Lai - When the fist goes out, it does not return. And all the WCK punches use "inch power" -- WCK is a short-range, inside fighting method. The hand does not return because after contact it remains in contact to control. In WCK we eat up the opponent's offensive space, and if we retract or disengage (retract), then we open up that space for them to use.



the chi-sao drill also rids us of retraction prior to striking, another fighting attribute is to not telegraph your intentions ...unless you are trying to mislead someone. Some might try to back up a redundant idea by saying this means the hand goes out but doesnt return as it looks to chase and stick to your arm...;)


You don't need chi sao to learn to not retract prior to striking or not to telegraph -- boxers, MT fighters, etc. all seem to do quite well without chi sao. Chi sao is to practice WCK, to practice the movements/actions we will be using in fighting. In other words, it is WCK with the training wheels on. And what you are doing in chi sao is learning to use the movement/actions of WCK to control your opponent while striking him. It makes absolutely no sense to do tons of practice moving in ways that you will discard when you fight, to practice one thing to do another.



the French call this a " coup de poins sans recule " translation ? a punch that doesnt come back , whats it mean to us ? now you understand...
In fighting we can also use this to generate force to keep a person under attack without retracting our arms too, like hitting them double palm [po-pai !]we push them into "striking of fists range" again without retracting your arms and allowing a counter attack or stance recovery in doping so...

You don't want to push someone into punching range as they will then punch you. Po pai jeung is to break the opponent's structure, thereby permitting you to control them, taking away their ability to hit you and leaving them vulnerable for you to strike.

[k gledhill]

Hey Kevin....

What's your take on Wan Kam? Some of the moves he does seem to deviate just a tad from your espoused 'WSL' method..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxp4SJt7V7M

he has similar striking methods as the root ... he uses the outside forearm from tan etc...jum ....he does 'moves' for show on a clip.

one of my students is going to try their ny class to see the thinking.

[YungChun]

he has similar striking methods as the root ... he uses the outside forearm from tan etc...jum ....he does 'moves' for show on a clip.

one of my students is going to try their ny class to see the thinking.

I think the 'thinking' is pretty clear from all his vids... Note that often he does tan-da with the tan off line opening them up.. and also shows examples of the dreaded 'two hands against one'... Nevertheless, I see him as one of the best teaching examples of the style to be seen online...

[t_niehoff]

I think the 'thinking' is pretty clear from all his vids... Note that often he does tan-da with the tan off line opening them up.. and also shows examples of the dreaded 'two hands against one'... Nevertheless, I see him as one of the best teaching examples of the style to be seen online...

I agree.

Wan Kam Leung's "thinking" appears to be to control his opponent while striking him. That's what he is doing in his chi sao. Notice how he continually keeps his opponent off-balance, pushes and pulls him, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxp4SJt7V7M

[k gledhill]

there is redundancy is some actions....but who is going to correct him ?
Like I said Terence we don't ONLY use tan & jum ... but its missing as a root method ...therefore making it impossible for anything but 2 handed reponse...
; )

[YungChun]

there is redundancy is some actions....but who is going to correct him ?


You think you could correct him? Or would it be the other way around?

IMO he has a balanced package putting it all together very well.

[t_niehoff]

there is redundancy is some actions....but who is going to correct him ?
Like I said Terence we don't ONLY use tan & jum ... but its missing as a root method ...therefore making it impossible for anything but 2 handed reponse...
; )

When you say "we don't" are you trying to suggest that you/Bayer are doing what Wan is?

Bayer's chi sao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KOppj4r8JY

That's NOT controlling the opponent. That's just playing with the hands.

[k gledhill]

Terence you simply haven't been exposed to the thinking...you will see it running through all WSL. I do
, the problem is you haven't been shown so you can't see it...yet.

[t_niehoff]

Terence you simply haven't been exposed to the thinking...you will see it running through all WSL. I do
, the problem is you haven't been shown so you can't see it...yet.

As I have told you, what you are talking about is an aspect, an element in ALL WCK. It is nothing special. It's not unique to Yip or WSL. It just isn't the end-all-be-all or even a cornerstone of the method.

[k gledhill]

its the foundation of the system

hitting the head with fists.

stance like a mountain arms like lightning.

[t_niehoff]

its the foundation of the system

hitting the head with fists.

stance like a mountain arms like lightning.

No, the foundation of the "system" (LOL!) is the faat mun -- which you lack. WCK is more than "hitting the head with fists."

And your kuit is wrong btw, it is "horse like mountain, arms like swimming dragons."

And you might consider the kuit, Yee fai da maan - Use fast to strike slow.

WCK's method isn't about having hands like lighting but about slowing the opponent down. Fast hands is an indicator of low level WCK.

Have a great weekend. :)

[k gledhill]

No, the foundation of the "system" (LOL!) is the faat mun -- which you lack. WCK is more than "hitting the head with fists."

And your kuit is wrong btw, it is "horse like mountain, arms like swimming dragons."

And you might consider the kuit, Yee fai da maan - Use fast to strike slow.

WCK's method isn't about having hands like lighting but about slowing the opponent down. Fast hands is an indicator of low level WCK.

Have a great weekend. :)

Terence you TRY to manipulate the Faat ( twitch, heheh, the faat)
to your liking and low level understanding. But we all seem to agree that you don't really have grasp of the basic ideas.

have a good weekend too.

[Graham H]

what makes YOU think you have a clue....:D you harp on about YOUR thinking WHO the F UC K are YOU ? an aged, overweight nobody, trial lawyer :D that frankly, everyone hates :)
have a good day :D

Lmfao:D

The best thing about Terrence is that he believes in what he says. You have to admire him for that. Trouble is 99 % of it BS. The other 1 % is spelling mistakes.


FWIW Terry NOTHING spreads out from the centerline. That defeats one of the most important concepts in VT and if you think that then no wonder you are so far off the mark.

Its easy for you to sit there and say things about Philipp Bayer but you're not even prepared to go and find out. You probably can't move anyway coz your belly has wedged you underneath your computer desk. :D

I have met Wan in HK and what he does ids good for Wan. That guy could probably make anything work for him because he is a fighter. I don't like it. In fact I wouldn't go to his school again. Not my cup of tea. Most of the time we sat there and laughed at videos of Ip Chun who is another one with a shockingly bad system of VT. Funny stuff.


GH

[t_niehoff]

what makes YOU think you have a clue....:D you harp on about YOUR thinking WHO the F UC K are YOU ? an aged, overweight nobody, trial lawyer :D that frankly, everyone hates :)
have a good day :D

I think I'm someone that obviously ruffles your feathers! But what are you but an overweight, short, bald, weak-chinned, flatulent, janitor who suffers from erectile dysfunction and who everyone thinks has his head up Bayer's ass? ;) LOL! See, I can make sh1t up too!

Getting a clue as to what the curriculum of WCK is not difficult since all anyone needs to do is look across the various legit branches of WCK to see the commonality (what things they all have in common) to make that determination. For example, the YKS and Gu Lao branches of WCK make the faat mun explicit -- they spell it out for you -- and others, like Yip, make it implicit. But, of course, if you aren't open to looking outside your lineage/teacher, and think only they have the REAL wing chun, then you won't see it.

And everyday is a great day! Thank you.

[Sihing73]

I have met Wan in HK and what he does ids good for Wan. That guy could probably make anything work for him because he is a fighter. I don't like it. In fact I wouldn't go to his school again. Not my cup of tea. GH

I see, it is okay for Wan to do things differently because HE CAN MAKE THEM WORK FOR HIM so why put down others who can do the same thing?

Oh, because others do not have a YouTube video ;)

Or is it because Wan also comes from the enchanted pool of which others from WSL sprung?

I am curious as to how there is such a variety of those who came from the same source and the source does not insure reliability or effectiveness..........seems like the answer is not as simple as just train under a specific person.

I wonder if Wan thinks everything is a punch in stealth mode as well. Perhaps I will visit the NYC class when I am next up North. Perhaps we can drink tea and sit around laughing at some who think they have the answer :rolleyes:

Before you say soemthing stupid I do realize that Wan is not located in NYC however his student William Kwok does teach there.

[k gledhill]

I think I'm someone that obviously ruffles your feathers! But what are you but an overweight, short, bald, weak-chinned, flatulent, janitor who suffers from erectile dysfunction and who everyone thinks has his head up Bayer's ass? ;) LOL! See, I can make sh1t up too!

Getting a clue as to what the curriculum of WCK is not difficult since all anyone needs to do is look across the various legit branches of WCK to see the commonality (what things they all have in common) to make that determination. For example, the YKS and Gu Lao branches of WCK make the faat mun explicit -- they spell it out for you -- and others, like Yip, make it implicit. But, of course, if you aren't open to looking outside your lineage/teacher, and think only they have the REAL wing chun, then you won't see it.

And everyday is a great day! Thank you.

not ruffling me, just amused at your tenacity for mantras :D you drag this forum into a continuous "everybody look at me and my Faat" to the point its made you a laughing stock :D the faat ! :D:D

your overweight,baldness,etc... is just copying people again, you do the same in many posts, you adopt things, like its your own idea...but we all see through your method.

you need to stay open minded, I am. I left the well a long time ago....you should try it ...ribbet !;)

[k gledhill]

I see, it is okay for Wan to do things differently because HE CAN MAKE THEM WORK FOR HIM so why put down others who can do the same thing?

Oh, because others do not have a YouTube video ;)

Or is it because Wan also comes from the enchanted pool of which others from WSL sprung?

I am curious as to how there is such a variety of those who came from the same source and the source does not insure reliability or effectiveness..........seems like the answer is not as simple as just train under a specific person.

I wonder if Wan thinks everything is a punch in stealth mode as well. Perhaps I will visit the NYC class when I am next up North. Perhaps we can drink tea and sit around laughing at some who think they have the answer :rolleyes:

Before you say soemthing stupid I do realize that Wan is not located in NYC however his student William Kwok does teach there.


Its a free world, you can go to any school and try their way of thinking....follow your nose :D i did...

[t_niehoff]

not ruffling me, just amused at your tenacity for mantras :D you drag this forum into a continuous "everybody look at me and my Faat" to the point its made you a laughing stock :D the faat ! :D:D


The faat mun is a critical part of the WCK core curriculum and tell us what we are trying to do, it describes WCK's strategic approach to fighting. If you don't know what you are trying to do, you can't develop skill doing it. :) Without it you are lost. SN/YKS, Gu Lao, etc. have it. It seems Gary Lam and WKL since they either demo or talk about controlling the opponent while striking him.



your overweight,baldness,etc... is just copying people again, you do the same in many posts, you adopt things, like its your own idea...but we all see through your method.


Yes, I just was only copying what you were doing to illustrate how immature and stupid it was to do something like that. I hope people saw through that -- that is what I intended.



you need to stay open minded, I am. I left the well a long time ago....you should try it ...ribbet !;)

I am open-minded -- that's why I look into the other branches, lineages of WCK to see what is the core curriculum of WCK. I don't assume that my little lineage/branch of WCK is right. In fact, I say that ALL lineage is bullsh1t, and skill is personal, not coming from our sifu. I am open to seeing anything that works. Not stories about it working, not stories about bar fights with multiple opponents, but to seeing things work against even low-level trained fighters.

You keep talking about your leaving the well when you are more stuck in a limited, false "idea" than just about anyone.

[k gledhill]

Immature AND stupid :D kinda like country AND western :D your SO MATURE :rolleyes:

I can be mature....;) just not as fun :D you take yourself way to seriously,
you do copy others text to try and make it your own, nice attempt to skirt that one.

you are NOT open minded, dont kid yourself.

[Sihing73]

Its a free world, you can go to any school and try their way of thinking....follow your nose :D i did...

Kevin,

Fair enough, but is it really proper to put down everyone you don't happen to agree with? To me that shows a lack of many things. ;)

I am also happy where I am in my journey and I have been able to actually apply it in a correctional facility as well as a police officer in projects in Philly as well as a State Trooper.

However, I do not think you need my approach for WC to work for you. I also prefer not to try and put down everyone who does not think the same as me. :o

[YungChun]

Terence isn't so bad.. Lately he's been making a lot of sense I think, in addition to his core mantra which while it may get tiring to hear is normally spot on..

There are things T has said or done that either I don't understand and/or simply don't agree with and that's okay, for the most part he is quite lucid which is more than I can say for most here..

No doubt a lot of things are hard to get across in this medium. Everyone is certain that when they write something down that everyone reads it the same way they do and it's not the case..

[YungChun]

The faat mun is a critical part of the WCK core curriculum and tell us what we are trying to do, it describes WCK's strategic approach to fighting. If you don't know what you are trying to do, you can't develop skill doing it. :) Without it you are lost. SN/YKS, Gu Lao, etc. have it.


For example, the YKS and Gu Lao branches of WCK make the faat mun explicit -- they spell it out for you -- and others, like Yip, make it implicit.

I don't know what role the Kuit had in Yip's school but MoyYat compiled a book of them as I recall and also made chops of the Kuit.

I can tell you that when I trained at his school I constantly heard them quoted as reminders: They were definitely an explicit part of the curriculum... Moreover, the controlling, structure breaking, body alignment/unity, etc, were also an explicit part of the curriculum...

[Graham H]

I am curious as to how there is such a variety of those who came from the same source and the source does not insure reliability or effectiveness..........seems like the answer is not as simple as just train under a specific person.



There is variety in all lineages and the reason is because of the human factor. The world is full of foolish people and no matter who your teacher is once you change something or add something due to your own misinterpretation, lack of contact with your teacher or you are just plain stupid then the error you install into what is generally a very effective form of unarmed combat will be massive. I know this, my teacher knows and and his teacher before.

Here are a few quotes from WSL that highlight this............

.............A common stumbling block is certainly that the basic principles are not well understood and are therefore not propagated correctly. To compensate for this lack of knowledge, techniques are changed, the work not in accordance with those principles and thus lose enormously in effectiveness. Another problem is certainly the imagination. Techniques are not well understood and will suddenly have a different function. The loss of reality also causes the installation of completely new techniques, which have nothing to do with Ving Tsun. It is often a matter of patience.

....................when a mad man says something, it is understood by only a madman. If an intelligent person says something, it is understood only by intelligent. The madman can be fooled by the pseudo-mystical techniques and the fabulous stories and are the best offering for marketers. Unfortunately, the mass of humanity is fooled by such things. A few are, however, smart enough that they do not need a big show in order to discover the richness of a system.

...............To learn Ving Tsun and really understand it a certain amount of intelligence is necessary.


It doesn't take an Einstein to realize why the world of VT is crazy.

GH

[t_niehoff]

There is variety in all lineages and the reason is because of the human factor. The world is full of foolish people and no matter who your teacher is once you change something or add something due to your own misinterpretation, lack of contact with your teacher or you are just plain stupid then the error you install into what is generally a very effective form of unarmed combat will be massive. I know this, my teacher knows and and his teacher before.


What's IRONIC is that you don't apply this to yourself and to what you do (and your teacher does).

How can we know whether we -- the generic we -- have the complete core curriculum of WCK or not? By just looking at what your sifu does or teaches? Of course not. That's just one sample. That one sample may be a particular person's "interpretation" or limited expression of the curriculum. You need to look at other known legit branches of WCK and compare your curriculum to theirs. You don't start with the assumption that "my teacher has it all."

For example, does your curriculum of WCK have the chi gerk components? Not necessarily the drill but the components? Because when you look at some lineages of Yip, YKS/SN, Yik Kam, Gu Lao, etc. you see they ALL do. Why? Because that is an important element when you are very close (you can't do it except when you are almost body to body) and is to help you control your opponent (by destroying his base/structure with your legs).

Do you need the chi gerk elements if you see WCK as a form of kickboxing or is just about tan/jum punching the other guy in the head? No. But if you see WCK as the ancestors did -- and we know that from looking to the older branches of WCK -- as controlling the opponent while striking him, as being a very close range, inside fighting method, then the chi gerk elements make lots of sense.

[t_niehoff]

I don't know what role the Kuit had in Yip's school but MoyYat compiled a book of them as I recall and also made chops of the Kuit.

I can tell you that when I trained at his school I constantly heard them quoted as reminders: They were definitely an explicit part of the curriculum... Moreover, the controlling, structure breaking, body alignment/unity, etc, were also an explicit part of the curriculum...

The problem with looking at Yip's school curriculum was that how Yip taught was very erratic. So to get a good picture of Yip's curriculum, we need to look across a large number of Yip students. Some, like Ho Kam Ming, WSL, Moy Yat, etc. received a lot of personal attention from Yip and got the core curriculum, and you see the same common elements in what they teach. Others, regardless of the stories, evidently missed a lot.

[Sihing73]

There is variety in all lineages and the reason is because of the human factor. The world is full of foolish people and no matter who your teacher is once you change something or add something due to your own misinterpretation, lack of contact with your teacher or you are just plain stupid then the error you install into what is generally a very effective form of unarmed combat will be massive. GH

WOW!!
I am thankful you were not around when the arts were being created. WC itself is a synthesis of various arts/concepts which were combined for a specific need from other things. I guess those who combined the arts were stupid, unless of course they really understood what they were doing :D Of course, this would never be the case today................right :rolleyes:

Seems like some here like to point out how foolish other people are as though they are the only ones with the intellignece to find and train in the right way.

There are also many stories and quotes regarding those who are fools and yet do not know they are fools, Rather they believe they are wise and everyone else is a fool. I could share them with you, but I am unsure if you would be wise enough to get the point ;)

[k gledhill]

Kevin,

Fair enough, but is it really proper to put down everyone you don't happen to agree with? To me that shows a lack of many things. ;)

I am also happy where I am in my journey and I have been able to actually apply it in a correctional facility as well as a police officer in projects in Philly as well as a State Trooper.

However, I do not think you need my approach for WC to work for you. I also prefer not to try and put down everyone who does not think the same as me. :o

Its hard to 'swallow' the c r a p being given out....;) I have chosen to Barf instead :D

[Sihing73]

Its hard to 'swallow' the c r a p being given out....;) I have chosen to Barf instead :D

Do you need me to send you some of those little airplane bags? :D

[YungChun]

I am curious as to how there is such a variety of those who came from the same source and the source does not insure reliability or effectiveness..........seems like the answer is not as simple as just train under a specific person.


There are a lot of factors..

For starters:

1. Many teachers will teach different students differently...
2. Not all students understanding will be the same...
3. Teachers change throughout their teaching careers...
4. Students often add their own ideas even unknowingly...

I have seen others who claim they trained at my old school who are doing things that are completely at odds with what I was taught.. No idea how that could be possible, but it is... Even among others small points are different or missing... Overall there is a lot of variation in my experience...

[k gledhill]

The problem with looking at Yip's school curriculum was that how Yip taught was very erratic. So to get a good picture of Yip's curriculum, we need to look across a large number of Yip students. Some, like Ho Kam Ming, WSL, Moy Yat, etc. received a lot of personal attention from Yip and got the core curriculum, and you see the same common elements in what they teach. Others, regardless of the stories, evidently missed a lot.

Here are a few quotes from WSL that highlight this reason....

.............A common stumbling block is certainly that the basic principles are not well understood and are therefore not propagated correctly. To compensate for this lack of knowledge, techniques are changed, the work not in accordance with those principles and thus lose enormously in effectiveness. Another problem is certainly the imagination. Techniques are not well understood and will suddenly have a different function. The loss of reality also causes the installation of completely new techniques, which have nothing to do with Ving Tsun. It is often a matter of patience.

....................when a mad man says something, it is understood by only a madman. If an intelligent person says something, it is understood only by intelligent. The madman can be fooled by the pseudo-mystical techniques and the fabulous stories and are the best offering for marketers. Unfortunately, the mass of humanity is fooled by such things. A few are, however, smart enough that they do not need a big show in order to discover the richness of a system.

...............To learn Ving Tsun and really understand it a certain amount of intelligence is necessary.

[YungChun]

Graham posted that already on the last page.

[t_niehoff]

Graham posted that already on the last page.

Yes, and too bad neither seem to fully appreciate what Wong was saying.

[k gledhill]

Yes, and too bad neither seem to fully appreciate what Wong was saying.




I re-posted it for a reason that you didnt grasp....;)

Its there T , always has been, during my 25 and your 30, I was lucky to have stumbled onto it, it made me realize that what many follow [me included]as 'mainstream' ideas are not the raw idea, but marketed self-defense school commercial ventures, with move 'a' for punch 'b', move 'c' for high kick to head etc....now lets do chi-sao games and feeeeel with wrists and try to control water...

[Sihing73]

There are a lot of factors..

For starters:

1. Many teachers will teach different students differently...
2. Not all students understanding will be the same...
3. Teachers change throughout their teaching careers...
4. Students often add their own ideas even unknowingly...

I have seen others who claim they trained at my old school who are doing things that are completely at odds with what I was taught.. No idea how that could be possible, but it is... Even among others small points are different or missing... Overall there is a lot of variation in my experience...

Jim,

Understood and I agree as WC is a highly personal system so as long as one retains the core concepts it can appear in many different ways.

My point however, was that I find it amusing for someone to claim their approach is so much better because it comes from source A. Yet at the same time to belittle others which also came from source A. Seems to me that if you are going to claim some sort of superiority due to the wellspring than others from that same spring should also be superior.

Seems like some just don't like anything different than their approach no matter whether that approach works or not.

[k gledhill]

There are a lot of factors..

For starters:

1. Many teachers will teach different students differently...
2. Not all students understanding will be the same...
3. Teachers change throughout their teaching careers...
4. Students often add their own ideas even unknowingly...

I have seen others who claim they trained at my old school who are doing things that are completely at odds with what I was taught.. No idea how that could be possible, but it is... Even among others small points are different or missing... Overall there is a lot of variation in my experience...

good point .... #2 & #4 ....sometimes a wrong action can become the norm.

One of the main culprits of this phenomenon is that the elbows moving back disengage the buttock/hip from backing up the elbows forwards inwards counter force.

Add the wrong idea of developing 'feeling' a tan strike so you dissolve it c r a p and it gets lost immediately in a feely sticky wrist quagmire of redundant 'moves' without a goal to free-fighting from NO pre-contact .

WSL "sensitivity is a BY-PRODUCT of the striking drills, not the goal" iow we gain knowledge of incorrect lines of force/ alignment from each other as we try to develop the striking, counter/striking drills...

Same goes for chi-sao lok sao/poon sao ...guys use backwards reception in a mis applied drill to take out the stance work. Try to maintain elbows and hips doing an exchange of striking in chi-sao drills and the intensity is obvious, any weakness in structure will be taken advantage of as a 'your mistake' not application fighting 1:1 if you happen to be doing a 2 handed facing exchange like our drill....follow ? :D

I have met P Bayer student who just learned the dan chi-sao and moves his elbows back when doing a jum strike against the tan.
I corrected him and showed that a punch without retraction doesnt retract first ;) it can retract after extension hitting out and intercepting on the centerline... But dan chi develops basic striking ability ...then we can add controlling, stance disruption etc...all the things T mentions that stopped the simple strike to the head/jaw..:D

[YungChun]

Seems like some just don't like anything different than their approach no matter whether that approach works or not.

That's not Wing Chun! Or insert another style name... It's the hallmark of any TMA forum!!!

The good news is that anyone who wants to share what they do offers us a chance to learn something new or make us think about what we do or want to do in a new way.. Even if it's just how not to look silly on video.. ;)

[t_niehoff]

I re-posted it for a reason that you didnt grasp....;)


Oh, I got it.

That's why I wrote:

How can we know whether we -- the generic we -- have the complete core curriculum of WCK or not? By just looking at what your sifu does or teaches? Of course not. That's just one sample. That one sample may be a particular person's "interpretation" or limited expression of the curriculum. You need to look at other known legit branches of WCK and compare your curriculum to theirs. You don't start with the assumption that "my teacher has it all."

You see, that's how you learn whether what is being propagated is "correct" or not.



Its there T , always has been, during my 25 and your 30,


The core curriculum of WCK is fairly obvious ONCE you get outside your little box.



I was lucky to have stumbled onto it, it made me realize that what many follow [me included]as 'mainstream' ideas are not the raw idea, but marketed self-defense school commercial ventures, with move 'a' for punch 'b', move 'c' for high kick to head etc....now lets do chi-sao games and feeeeel with wrists and try to control water...

It's not a matter of "stumbling" onto anything, but of intelligently (ie., critically) examining the various legit older lineages/branches of WCK to see what the commonality is -- since they will all share that core (or they are not all WCK).

You just won't open yourself to the possibility that there is MORE to WCK than what Bayer teaches. This is your self-limitation.

[YungChun]

I have met P Bayer student who just learned the dan chi-sao and moves his elbows back when doing a jum strike against the tan.
I corrected him and showed that a punch without retraction doesnt retract first ;) it can retract after extension hitting out and intercepting on the centerline... But dan chi develops basic striking ability ...then we can add controlling, stance disruption etc...all the things T mentions that stopped the simple strike to the head/jaw..:D

The key difference is the emphasis on control.. In the case of Wan Kam and Gary Lam, by way of example, we see a combination of direct control, and indirect control; the latter normally serves as finishing move(s)..

So IMO it's not one or the other it's an as needed thing. But as was pointed out: Much of the art would be for naught if you only focus on the striking...aspects.. Control and striking, even with both hands, body and even legs is indeed valid too...

As I said Wan puts it all together very well IMO and is at the core of what I always saw as correct higher level expression and is also very similar to parts of what I came up on in my own training experience..

In the end we each can have our own emphasis, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..

[k gledhill]

Oh, I got it.

That's why I wrote:

How can we know whether we -- the generic we -- have the complete core curriculum of WCK or not? By just looking at what your sifu does or teaches? Of course not. That's just one sample. That one sample may be a particular person's "interpretation" or limited expression of the curriculum. You need to look at other known legit branches of WCK and compare your curriculum to theirs. You don't start with the assumption that "my teacher has it all."

You see, that's how you learn whether what is being propagated is "correct" or not.



The core curriculum of WCK is fairly obvious ONCE you get outside your little box.



It's not a matter of "stumbling" onto anything, but of intelligently (ie., critically) examining the various legit older lineages/branches of WCK to see what the commonality is -- since they will all share that core (or they are not all WCK).

You just won't open yourself to the possibility that there is MORE to WCK than what Bayer teaches. This is your self-limitation.


part of the problem isnt that " my teacher has it all, but has less ;) how many will try to tell you oh yeah we do that too....we say we dont do that :D thats redudnant, in fighting too slow...

I have been exposed to other ideas....

anyway, its your nose to follow ...

[k gledhill]

The key difference is the emphasis on control.. In the case of Wan Kam and Gary Lam, by way of example, we see a combination of direct control, and indirect control; the latter normally serves as finishing move(s)..

So IMO it's not one or the other it's an as needed thing. But as was pointed out: Much of the art would be for naught if you only focus on the striking...aspects.. Control and striking, even with both hands, body and even legs is indeed valid too...

As I said Wan puts it all together very well IMO and is at the core of what I always saw as correct higher level expression and is also very similar to parts of what I came up on in my own training experience..

In the end we each can have our own emphasis, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..


strikes that also control, subtle but big change in abilities....

[t_niehoff]

part of the problem isnt that " my teacher has it all, but has less ;) how many will try to tell you oh yeah we do that too....we say we dont do that :D thats redudnant, in fighting too slow...

I have been exposed to other ideas....

anyway, its your nose to follow ...

As I have said, Bayer's "idea" is nothing new, it is just one aspect of WCK. If you believe that's all you need or make it the "main idea" of your curriculum thereby making your curriculum of WCK "less", that's entirely your prerogative. However, that doesn't change the FACT that this isn't how or what our ancestors historically taught as the curriculum of WCK. And I don't think it is intellectually honest to suggest that it is.

Someone could, I suppose, say that WCK should just be charging in with chain punches or some other aspect of the method. They could say that is the "REAL idea" of WCK, and that anything "more" is redundant. That is part of the WCK curriculum. No doubt about that. Is that the entire core curriculum? No, not by any means. Is it the core curriculum of our ancestors in WCK? No.

My view is that this is teaching only a portion of the WCK curriculum, and mistaking it for the whole. Moreover, I have trouble understanding why people would take the position of "I don't care what came down to us from our ancestors as WCK, I don't care what else is out there, MY teacher has the TRUE WCK." Particularly when the teacher and/or his students aren't mixing it up with competently skilled fighters and successfully doing what they train to do as they train to do it.

[t_niehoff]

strikes that also control, subtle but big change in abilities....

Your strikes won't control if controlling isn't your objective in striking (and if it is, then you are trying to control while striking). You have to practice trying to control with your striking in order to develop that skill. It isn't just a natural by-product (which is why boxers, kickboxers, etc. don't control with their strikes).

The other aspect is that more often than not, striking alone won't provide much in the way of control.

[YungChun]

strikes that also control, subtle but big change in abilities....

That's what I meant by direct vs indirect control... The elbow is the assist in the also.. Things that control can also hit, things that hit can also control--but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Does it trump the rest of the art though...really? Preclude other options? I don't think so and certainly not in terms of the art's overall content.

[Sihing73]

That's not Wing Chun! Or insert another style name... It's the hallmark of any TMA forum!!!

The good news is that anyone who wants to share what they do offers us a chance to learn something new or make us think about what we do or want to do in a new way.. Even if it's just how not to look silly on video.. ;)

Jim,

True to an extent, but WC seems to be among the most furious when it comes to infighting, of course it is a short range system :D

The potential to share and learn is there, but is it really practiced? Rather than sharing and helping one another the norm seems to be to argue and bicker among ourselves. So much potential so little actually used.

[k gledhill]

Your strikes won't control if controlling isn't your objective in striking (and if it is, then you are trying to control while striking). You have to practice trying to control with your striking in order to develop that skill. It isn't just a natural by-product (which is why boxers, kickboxers, etc. don't control with their strikes).

The other aspect is that more often than not, striking alone won't provide much in the way of control.


this is the idea i am trying to convey, the forearms create controlling lines that take over for the preceeding control, AND attack , the forearm iow we start the development of strikes that also control ON the centerline, boxers, kickboxers dont train VT elbow, striking forearms , control drills....they bob and weavetc...

it isnt the fists striking alone ! centerline blasting in, this is where you lose me ...the angles of the forearms and dropping after a strike create natural jut sao's, enabling us to control attempts to re-face,etc...the extension of the forearms at acute angles create natural barriers that create a defensive line, simultaneously .

the wrists crossing the line makes each forearm striking out ,sweep the center zone we protect along and attack on as we alternate striking attacks...with a partner action,lop,pak bong...if required.

[t_niehoff]

this is the idea i am trying to convey, the forearms create controlling lines that take over for the preceeding control, AND attack , the forearm iow we start the development of strikes that also control ON the centerline, boxers, kickboxers dont train VT elbow, striking forearms , control drills....they bob and weavetc...


And as I have said, this is a well-known aspect of WCK. However, that tactic doesn't work in all, or even most, situations.

WCK gives us the tools -- and that is but one tool -- and it is up to us to find out how, when, where that tool fits into the overall game.

But here's where you are being disingenuous. You seem to argue that WCK's method is not to control while striking but now say that "we have control too."



it isnt the fists striking alone ! centerline blasting in, this is where you lose me ...the angles of the forearms and dropping after a strike create natural jut sao's, enabling us to control attempts to re-face,etc...the extension of the forearms at acute angles create natural barriers that create a defensive line, simultaneously .


In my WCK, the fists play only a small part in striking.

What you are describing is not control. Control is not when you have a barrier or defensive line up but when he can't hit in the first place (so you don't need a barrier). For example, if I pull your head down to your waist (a very severely broken structure), I don't need a barrier to protect my head -- because your structure is broken and until you regain your structure, you can't hit me. Control, in that case pulling your head down, provides safety, opens up offensive possibilities, and makes it more difficult for you to defend.



the wrists crossing the line makes each forearm striking out ,sweep the center zone we protect along and attack on as we alternate striking attacks...with a partner action,lop,pak bong...if required.

What you describe isn't at all realistic -- it doesn't reflect what will happen in reality, when someone is really fighting you.

Look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97513HQoEk

That is a good example of what it is going to be like "in the phone booth", i.e., when fighting on the inside. THAT is the environment where you need to make whatever you think you should be doing work because THAT is what a fight will be like when you are on the inside. Now, those guys weren't good IMO (though I think they would crush most WCK people easily), but they - unlike most WCK clips I've seen - have the range, intensity, contact, etc. right. Try your tan/jum punching in THAT, see how it works for you.

[k gledhill]

And as I have said, this is a well-known aspect of WCK. However, that tactic doesn't work in all, or even most, situations.

WCK gives us the tools -- and that is but one tool -- and it is up to us to find out how, when, where that tool fits into the overall game.

But here's where you are being disingenuous. You seem to argue that WCK's method is not to control while striking but now say that "we have control too."



In my WCK, the fists play only a small part in striking.

What you are describing is not control. Control is not when you have a barrier or defensive line up but when he can't hit in the first place (so you don't need a barrier). For example, if I pull your head down to your waist (a very severely broken structure), I don't need a barrier to protect my head -- because your structure is broken and until you regain your structure, you can't hit me. Control, in that case pulling your head down, provides safety, opens up offensive possibilities, and makes it more difficult for you to defend.



What you describe isn't at all realistic -- it doesn't reflect what will happen in reality, when someone is really fighting you.

Look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97513HQoEk

That is a good example of what it is going to be like "in the phone booth", i.e., when fighting on the inside. THAT is the environment where you need to make whatever you think you should be doing work because THAT is what a fight will be like when you are on the inside. Now, those guys weren't good IMO (though I think they would crush most WCK people easily), but they - unlike most WCK clips I've seen - have the range, intensity, contact, etc. right. Try your tan/jum punching in THAT, see how it works for you.


you really dont have a clue what i am talking about from your response, you MAY THINK you do, but after that reply and clip....forget it.

Its easier for me to just let you think whatever you want :D

Saying the centerline sweep is unrealistic is hilarious, its the first thing we do at the beginning of every form, must be we do it for the laughs..:rolleyes:

If you think that clip is VT fighting then i cant help you.

[t_niehoff]

you really dont have a clue what i am talking about from your response, you MAY THINK you do, but after that reply and clip....forget it.

Its easier for me to just let you think whatever you want :D


I have seen what you are doing -- how many clips have Bayer uploaded to youtube?



Saying the centerline sweep is unrealistic is hilarious, its the first thing we do at the beginning of every form, must be we do it for the laughs..:rolleyes:


So, when something is called unrealistic (meaning that it won't work under realistic conditions), your response is to say "but we do it in the form"?

BTW, there is no "centerline sweep" at the beginning of every form.



If you think that clip is VT fighting then i cant help you.

No, it is a clip of what fighting is like on the inside -- of what anyone who fights on the inside will encounter. THAT's what it will be like. The question is does your WCK training prepare you for that? Or, are you fantasizing about what you will encounter?

My point regarding the clip was that at least these guys appreciate that WCK takes place on the inside and are trying to make their WCK work. These were evidently beginners, but they would run over most WCK people. The only ones they wouldn't run over are the ones who are training to deal with that BY dealing with that. :)

[k gledhill]

I have seen what you are doing -- how many clips have Bayer uploaded to youtube?



So, when something is called unrealistic (meaning that it won't work under realistic conditions), your response is to say "but we do it in the form"?

BTW, there is no "centerline sweep" at the beginning of every form.



No, it is a clip of what fighting is like on the inside -- of what anyone who fights on the inside will encounter. THAT's what it will be like. The question is does your WCK training prepare you for that? Or, are you fantasizing about what you will encounter?

My point regarding the clip was that at least these guys appreciate that WCK takes place on the inside and are trying to make their WCK work. These were evidently beginners, but they would run over most WCK people. The only ones they wouldn't run over are the ones who are training to deal with that BY dealing with that. :)


no centerline sweep...:D the very fist thing we do each time we train solo is to create a line, a centerline to intersect and use as our reference to facing and striking along.

This is why the strikes require a tan spreading elbow and a jum inward elbow....depending what side, left or right, we face we dont leave the centerline, we face and shift the line while striking and fighting etc...

This is why our rear wu sao touches the raised bicep of bong sao... so without thinking I can strike from wu sao and sweep into your head unless i get intercepted ..then we reflex respond from drilling reactions.

this is why the tut sao sweeps and alternates, tut sao is the man sao wu sao of the beginning actions of the forms, most call a high low gaun sao.


your thinking is very basic Terence.

[Graham H]

you really dont have a clue what i am talking about from your response, you MAY THINK you do, but after that reply and clip....forget it.
.


My thoughts exactly!!!!!!!

GH

[Graham H]

I have seen what you are doing -- how many clips have Bayer uploaded to youtube?




You haven't got a clue what we are doing Terrence!!!!!............trying to make an assesment based on video footage is BS. In fact the more you post and the more you put clips up to prove your point only adds to my view that you haven't any idea of our way at all. FACT!!!

GH

[t_niehoff]

no centerline sweep...:D the very fist thing we do each time we train solo is to create a line, a centerline to intersect and use as our reference to facing and striking along.


That (sup jee sao) is not a centerline sweep. Yes, it does reference our facing and centerline.



This is why the strikes require a tan spreading elbow and a jum inward elbow....depending what side, left or right, we face we dont leave the centerline, we face and shift the line while striking and fighting etc...


No. This is all playing with the hands.



This is why our rear wu sao touches the raised bicep of bong sao... so without thinking I can strike from wu sao and sweep into your head unless i get intercepted ..then we reflex respond from drilling reactions.

this is why the tut sao sweeps and alternates, tut sao is the man sao wu sao of the beginning actions of the forms, most call a high low gaun sao.


No.



your thinking is very basic Terence.

WCK is very basic -- it is about controlling the opponent while striking him. And to control an opponent, you must use your body (you can't do it with just your hands). All you talk about is the hands and hitting with the hands, opening lines for the hand, etc. This is low-level WCK. For example, you don't tan with the elbow or the hand, you tan with your body, you fook with your body, etc. The bridges (tan, bong, fook, etc.) are extensions of your body and what you are doing with your body. Kuen kuit: Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma - Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse.

As I said, go put yourself in the environment that the clip I posted shows and see if all your hand-WCK works. You'll see very quickly that you got nothin'.

[t_niehoff]

You haven't got a clue what we are doing Terrence!!!!!............trying to make an assesment based on video footage is BS.


Well, all you guys talk about is hand-WCK (playing with the hands) and all I see on the video footage is hand-WCK (playing with the hands).



In fact the more you post and the more you put clips up to prove your point only adds to my view that you haven't any idea of our way at all. FACT!!!
GH

This is because your view of WCK is that it is all about the hands/elbow and lines. LOL! Whereas my view of WCK is that it is all about controlling the opponent while striking him. FACT!!

[Graham H]

Whereas my view of WCK is that it is all about controlling the opponent while striking him. FACT!!

Good point but I prefer my way.....good luck in ur training.

[t_niehoff]

Good point but I prefer my way.....good luck in ur training.

And you in yours. :)

[shawchemical]

Well, all you guys talk about is hand-WCK (playing with the hands) and all I see on the video footage is hand-WCK (playing with the hands).



This is because your view of WCK is that it is all about the hands/elbow and lines. LOL! Whereas my view of WCK is that it is all about controlling the opponent while striking him. FACT!!

t you are a moron.

The last thing that Bayers guys do is chase hands. While we disagree on some things, they are definitely NOT chasing hands. But your level of understanding is lacking, which explains why you just dont see the forest for the trees.
You just dont understand what is meant by control. IT's ok, you just need to find a real teacher to help you.

[k gledhill]

I agree Terence isnt growing ...

[k gledhill]

That (sup jee sao) is not a centerline sweep. Yes, it does reference our facing and centerline.

sup jee sao is a centerline sweep....equally with each arm, wrists cross in front of the sternum [heart] as the rear wu sao would before extending out along the line....the following tan>jum>wu>fok all x the line at the wrists slightly, elbows move to touch the centerline , you wont do this unless someone shows you the reasons why.
Its done (aimed) low to avoid showing a person to raise elbows and not give away the basic idea to anyone who like you thinks its something else....;)

Like many they arer shown a low tut sao, so it makes you think its to remove a wrist grab.

All the CK sections end with tutsao sweep's aimed high as striking, but shown low in form work ...:D

no secret, just takes acertain mindset to work it and it WORKS :D

No. This is all playing with the hands.

you dont know how badly YOU are playing hands yet...;)



No.



WCK is very basic -- it is about controlling the opponent while striking him. And to control an opponent, you must use your body (you can't do it with just your hands). All you talk about is the hands and hitting with the hands, opening lines for the hand, etc. This is low-level WCK. For example, you don't tan with the elbow or the hand, you tan with your body, you fook with your body, etc. The bridges (tan, bong, fook, etc.) are extensions of your body and what you are doing with your body. Kuen kuit: Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma - Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse.

Sure you do tan with your body and fok with body so you strikes have structure of body weight supporting them as they attack , not seperate 1/4's in a 123 delivery....

but what part connects them ? the shoulder girdle muscle group,to the ...elbow, then alignment under fighting pressure, drills, then sparring for proof of good or not ?

back to drilling weaknesses....dummy re-enforces the body weight unity and striking+ parrying in unison 3 things at once equals explosive ballistic exchange of force ...cool stuff.:D

As I said, go put yourself in the environment that the clip I posted shows and see if all your hand-WCK works. You'll see very quickly that you got nothin'.



I have and did put myself in worse environments , called full on bar brawls, 10 years of bouncing in central London and the 'burbs :D i started in Brixton at a nightclub called the "Fridge"...check it out, we would fill a drawer with knives we took off guys coming in, then gave them back at the end of the night :D...1st job was there.

[Knifefighter]

I have and did put myself in worse environments , called full on bar brawls, 10 years of bouncing in central London and the 'burbs :D i started in Brixton at a nightclub called the "Fridge"...check it out, we would fill a drawer with knives we took off guys coming in, then gave them back at the end of the night :D...1st job was there.

LOL... yet you can't manage one simple clip of full contact work.

Somehow I think you are more like the character Joe Rogan described in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE



.

[k gledhill]

LOL... yet you can't manage one simple clip of full contact work.

Somehow I think you are more like the character Joe Rogan described in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE



.

thats right, I agree with him, trying to do "trapping hands" wont work , its called hand chasing, i learned as I was fighting guys outside bars for myself, you try to grab a hand and miss and your all over the place:D ....so we agree yet again Dale..dont you hate that ?;)

I have used my VT many times, I dont give amonkeys what you think, you werent there, I ended up in court several times so somebody believed me :D

I learned to hit heavy bags early on and spar with guys who never did VT back, we wore gloves, mouth guards, etc... and went at it, MT, Judo, Boxers...you assume nobody fights in VT. I am nothing special, skinny guy,180lbs , easy to ko :)

One thin I discovered early on was the way to hit guys required full body, facing strikes became the 'way' not trapping etc...only trapped once or twice because it was 'there', normally i just waited and hit with the distance available.

Once i stopped 2 guys coming into a bar on the kings rd opposite Chelsea football grounds. One skinny guy takes a swing at me and I reacted by pulling my jaw back an inch and his punch swang past me and carried on so i pak'ed his elbow shuffled in hitting him in the head, by the 3rd hit he was falling down by a parked car we went towards...over in a few seconds, one of the only times I 'trapped' :D

In general the whole idea of seeking arms first places you ina defensive mode to the other guys incoming attacks...he is in theory the one better off by just keeping swining while the other guy tries to trap....reversing our theory, ergo our training to make all our responses striking/fists attacking or low kicks.

[Knifefighter]

thats right, I agree with him, trying to do "trapping hands" wont work , its called hand chasing, i learned as I was fighting guys outside bars for myself, you try to grab a hand and miss and your all over the place:D ....so we agree yet again Dale..dont you hate that ?;)

I have used my VT many times, I dont give amonkeys what you think, you werent there, I ended up in court several times so somebody believed me :D

I learned to hit heavy bags early on and spar with guys who never did VT back, we wore gloves, mouth guards, etc... and went at it, MT, Judo, Boxers...you assume nobody fights in VT. I am nothing special, skinny guy,180lbs , easy to ko :)

One thin I discovered early on was the way to hit guys required full body, facing strikes became the 'way' not trapping etc...only trapped once or twice because it was 'there', normally i just waited and hit with the distance available.

Once i stopped 2 guys coming into a bar on the kings rd opposite Chelsea football grounds. One skinny guy takes a swing at me and I reacted by pulling my jaw back an inch and his punch swang past me and carried on so i pak'ed his elbow shuffled in hitting him in the head, by the 3rd hit he was falling down by a parked car we went towards...over in a few seconds, one of the only times I 'trapped' :D

In general the whole idea of seeking arms first places you ina defensive mode to the other guys incoming attacks...he is in theory the one better off by just keeping swining while the other guy tries to trap....reversing our theory, ergo our training to make all our responses striking/fists attacking or low kicks.

Nice story.

[YungChun]

thats right, I agree with him, trying to do "trapping hands" wont work , its called hand chasing, i learned as I was fighting guys outside bars for myself, you try to grab a hand and miss and your all over the place:D ....so we agree yet again Dale..dont you hate that ?;)

I have used my VT many times, I dont give amonkeys what you think, you werent there, I ended up in court several times so somebody believed me :D

I learned to hit heavy bags early on and spar with guys who never did VT back, we wore gloves, mouth guards, etc... and went at it, MT, Judo, Boxers...you assume nobody fights in VT. I am nothing special, skinny guy,180lbs , easy to ko :)

One thin I discovered early on was the way to hit guys required full body, facing strikes became the 'way' not trapping etc...only trapped once or twice because it was 'there', normally i just waited and hit with the distance available.

Once i stopped 2 guys coming into a bar on the kings rd opposite Chelsea football grounds. One skinny guy takes a swing at me and I reacted by pulling my jaw back an inch and his punch swang past me and carried on so i pak'ed his elbow shuffled in hitting him in the head, by the 3rd hit he was falling down by a parked car we went towards...over in a few seconds, one of the only times I 'trapped' :D

In general the whole idea of seeking arms first places you ina defensive mode to the other guys incoming attacks...he is in theory the one better off by just keeping swining while the other guy tries to trap....reversing our theory, ergo our training to make all our responses striking/fists attacking or low kicks.


I could be wrong but maybe, just maybe, Terence is not advocating reaching for arms..

I think he would say he would reach for control.. Unfortunately it is very difficult to know what that means without video..

I appreciate the idea you mention here as it is similar to what I experienced, and perhaps similar to others experience too..

Attacking them is the best way to know what you need to do next..IME..

No, reaching for hands (that are not obstructing) is not what Chun is about...but depending on how one does it reaching for control could be..

It all depends on how one actually does these things..

[k gledhill]

Nice story.

right, all stories Dale, check court records, theres a few ;) a few too many and they all started to come at me first, as I was coached by a local policeman .. " I threw my hands out to defend myself and they fell over your honor er yes...unconscious :) " :D:D

stories Dale, all lies, "I was never there", that was or mantra....

stories....;)

[k gledhill]

I could be wrong but maybe, just maybe, Terence is not advocating reaching for arms..

I think he would say he would reach for control.. Unfortunately it is very difficult to know what that means without video..

I appreciate the idea you mention here as it is similar to what I experienced, and perhaps similar to others experience too..

Attacking them is the best way to know what you need to do next..IME..

No, reaching for hands (that are not obstructing) is not what Chun is about...but depending on how one does it reaching for control could be..

It all depends on how one actually does these things..

theres no skill in using our 2 hands to fight their one....WSL

iow we train to sweep and swap striking arms using the inside or outside of forearms as the defensive lines along with jut, pak, bong etc..the beauty is that we have arms that can defend and attack alone , not just a fist going A-B along a line fastblast ...:o

I have a student of RC in my NJ class so i know exactly what Tere is on about, the student agrees with YM/WSL/PB approach, it works at such a basic level against incorrect alignment that it makes us , me included , look like beginners, with a whole new idea that we never had shown to us....
Ironically , its right in front of everyone doing VT, the shapes just need a coach to unlock the keys we need to simplify it all, see past the abstraction of drills and forms...

its not easy it took me a couple of years to get the picture ...

[YungChun]

theres no skill in using our 2 hands to fight their one....WSL


Where did he say this? And it's not two hands against one it's one hand striking and controlling while the other supplements the control... (via body power<==note: I always mean this..)



Ironically , its right in front of everyone doing VT, the shapes just need a coach to unlock the keys we need to simplify it all, see past the abstraction of drills and forms...

its not easy it took me a couple of years to get the picture ...

This aspect is not new.... It's the idea of the elbow acting as the second hand... Closing off lines and issuing force via the displacement.

It's seen in any good ChiSao as well, but it's not the ONLY thing seen.

It's the simpler expression IMO and it came naturally to me when I began training and came out in sparring.

[Knifefighter]

theres no skill in using our 2 hands to fight their one....WSL

iow we train to sweep and swap striking arms using the inside or outside of forearms as the defensive lines along with jut, pak, bong etc..the beauty is that we have arms that can defend and attack alone , not just a fist going A-B along a line fastblast ...:o

I have a student of RC in my NJ class so i know exactly what Tere is on about, the student agrees with YM/WSL/PB approach, it works at such a basic level against incorrect alignment that it makes us , me included , look like beginners, with a whole new idea that we never had shown to us....
Ironically , its right in front of everyone doing VT, the shapes just need a coach to unlock the keys we need to simplify it all, see past the abstraction of drills and forms...

its not easy it took me a couple of years to get the picture ...

Nice blog.

[Knifefighter]

right, all stories Dale, check court records, theres a few ;) a few too many and they all started to come at me first, as I was coached by a local policeman .. " I threw my hands out to defend myself and they fell over your honor er yes...unconscious :) " :D:D

stories Dale, all lies, "I was never there", that was or mantra....

stories....;)

I'm sure I'd find them in the same place I'd find your sparring clips... in your imagination.

[k gledhill]

I'm sure I'd find them in the same place I'd find your sparring clips... in your imagination.

Okay you win Dale I am a big fake :D

[k gledhill]

Where did he say this? And it's not two hands against one it's one hand striking and controlling while the other supplements the control... (via body power<==note: I always mean this..)

the supplement is in a fraction of a second, this is usually the downfall of using a partner hand, like a pak sao, we tend to leave it and x over the pak'ing hand because the striking hand hasnt been trained to take over the paks job iow the following striking forearms create the defense required by striking and recreating a barrier that the pak did previously...in a fraction of a second. Subtle but without the training you dont have the ability.. I used to fight like you , same thing I met MY and his guys and we are clones, were clones... but you can see the difference like me in a few seconds.


This aspect is not new.... It's the idea of the elbow acting as the second hand... Closing off lines and issuing force via the displacement.

True but its not just the elbow, its the one action of elbow and contact with a fist simultaneously from the tan elbow spreading the jum away and vice versa...not to fight each other but to use to create strong bridge striking attacks coupled with the jut/pak/bong/wu/etc....

It's seen in any good ChiSao as well, but it's not the ONLY thing seen.

good chi-sao is really about the displacement of each others striking attacks constantly in an intense exchange of relentless attacking and countering, with drills for jut, pak etc.. thrown in ...then adding stepping in and angling to counter specific sides of entry iow basic attacking and countering lines before going to no pre contact and sparring with the same techniques in clashes that develop spontaneous reflex responses with the same techniques of chi-sao but in 'sparks' of fighting engagement...not trying to emulate the drills of chi-sao but to fight...we dont fight each other in chi-sao.

It's the simpler expression IMO and it came naturally to me when I began training and came out in sparring.

I used to think like you too...

[k gledhill]

Nice blog.

i dont do Blog's , whats a blog ?

[YungChun]

I used to think like you too...

Kevin give me a break--you know what I think--what is that?

This is exactly what T says too... You think you have invented (meaning only we have it) chain punching (with facing) and his guys think they invented (meaning only we have it) the (structured) horse.. I mean GMAFB..to both those ideas..

I don't even understand how you think what you are doing is different from what I already said, which is about the elbow acting as the second hand/displacement--and yes cycling.. Leaving out parts of the system is not "new" it's called simplification. I have always talked about the water hose remember?

This simplification often seems more appropriate when the opponent does not hold centerline, etc... Doesn't change what it is though...

Is it what you are doing ISN'T that? Or is it that no one can be doing what you are? Cycling = Chaining... The use of the elbow is ubiquitous.. The reason this is Bayer's focus is obvious.

I have no idea what you meant with the 'clone' statement. I don't represent MoyYat (just ask Tom), I represent myself.

Many of MY's students are radically different.... Go figure..

[Graham H]

.............and it goes on and on and on and on..........................

[LSWCTN1]

you know Kevin,

wing chun doesnt have to always be the way you described... i mean, YKS wing chun refer to three hands, ie your elbows both acting as half a hand for defence so youre not incorrect but also...

Chueng Bo was reported to have elbows off centre, owing to him being a big guy and Yui Choi was known as 'strong wrist' or somesuch due to his wrist power.

many people perform their chun in a manner that works for them. PB's stuff is obviously very good, as he has lots of passionate followers... its not necessarily all that wing chun has to offer...

[t_niehoff]

I have a student of RC in my NJ class so i know exactly what Tere is on about, the student agrees with YM/WSL/PB approach, it works at such a basic level against incorrect alignment that it makes us , me included , look like beginners, with a whole new idea that we never had shown to us.....

No, you have no idea what I am talking about.

You have experience with one of Robert's ex-students who, while having learned the curriculum, never made any inroads into making it functional (by doing the work needed to make his WCK functional).

What you are doing is NOT the YM approach. That's not what YM taught. When ever you see Yip demo WCK, he is always controlling while striking. Nor is it the WSL approach. All we have to do is look to Peterson, Lam, Wan, etc. and see that they are not doing what Bayer is doing. Bayer has his OWN approach, where he has taken one element/aspect of WCK -- something in all WCK -- and made it his complete focus (and convinced his students that this "idea" is something unique and special).

What you are doing what all theoretical nonfighters do -- think that your being able to make something work, after you have structured unrealistic practice a way so that it will work, proves what you are doing is God's gift. All you have to do is go spar or have Bayer spar with some white-belt level MMA fighters and you will see.

[Graham H]

What you are doing is NOT the YM approach. That's not what YM taught. When ever you see Yip demo WCK, he is always controlling while striking. Nor is it the WSL approach. All we have to do is look to Peterson, Lam, Wan, etc. and see that they are not doing what Bayer is doing. Bayer has his OWN approach, where he has taken one element/aspect of WCK -- something in all WCK -- and made it his complete focus (and convinced his students that this "idea" is something unique and special).

.

FFS Terrence!!! Why do you have to keep on???? You can't agure with me on this as I have first hand experience. WSL taught in YM school. There is no way that WSL would teach something that he wasn't taught. I have been told by many people and Ive also read it from interviews that WSL taught EXACTLY what YM taught him allbeit in a more systematical way. WSL had a close relationship with Philipp. This was confirmed to me WSL's own wife and best friend. Simo also confirmed my belief that Philipp shares WSL's thinking on Ving Tsun. I also know David Peterson personally and I regualry talk to one of Gary Lam's EX students. I have trained with many different lineages within the YM group and I know their systems and I know their thinking.............................YOU HAVEN"T GOT A F****ING CLUE!!!!!! You are just making a fool of yourself claiming to know such things when you clearly don't and I'm starting to think you just like winding people up becasue nobody can be that much of a W***ER!!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

GH

[k gledhill]

terence is about to prove he can be that big a wanka !

[t_niehoff]

FFS Terrence!!! Why do you have to keep on????


Because Gledhill keeps mis-stating things.



You can't agure with me on this as I have first hand experience. WSL taught in YM school. There is no way that WSL would teach something that he wasn't taught. I have been told by many people and Ive also read it from interviews that WSL taught EXACTLY what YM taught him allbeit in a more systematical way.


WSL certainly learned the YM curriculum. He modified that curriculum (slightly) -- which btw is normal - when he began teaching. So what? So did Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins, Moy Yat, etc. They ALL reflect YM's curriculum. And YM's curriculum more or less matches the other lineages/branches of WCK. WCK is WCK.



WSL had a close relationship with Philipp. This was confirmed to me WSL's own wife and best friend.


So he had a "close relationship"? BFD. So did Lam (WSL's assistant instructor for 14 years, and one of his fighters), so did Peterson, so did Wan, and so on.

Do you see how silly it is to use "he had a close relationship" as some evidence that he knows what he is doing?



Simo also confirmed my belief that Philipp shares WSL's thinking on Ving Tsun.


WTF does "sharing his thinking" have to do with anything? If we want to see what WSL taught, we can look at his students and see for ourselves. Same with YM. Or with anyone.



I also know David Peterson personally


That's great. So what?



and I regualry talk to one of Gary Lam's EX students. I have trained with many different lineages within the YM group and I know their systems and I know their thinking.............................


What is this "thinking"? WCK isn't about some "thinking". It is about DOING.

If you look at what Lam does (and writes about) or what Wan does, they are both concerned with controlling the opponent while striking him. They are not doing or saying what Bayer is doing or Gledhill is saying.

What Bayer shows on his videos and what you guys talk about is all hand-WCK, it is all about the hands/elbows (hitting with the hands, opening lines to hit with the hands, etc.). That is low-level WCK. It is not controlling the opponent while striking him. And you can't control the opponent with your hands.



YOU HAVEN"T GOT A F****ING CLUE!!!!!! You are just making a fool of yourself claiming to know such things when you clearly don't and I'm starting to think you just like winding people up becasue nobody can be that much of a W***ER!!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

GH

You seem to assert that Bayer has the "true teachings" of YM through WSL, and as I keep pointing out that just isn't true. He has SOME of the teachings of YM/WSL. What you guys keep talking about as being revolutionary is present in ALL WCK. That aspect is nothing special or unique. What is unique is that BAYER has given it an over-emphasis in his curriculum to the point of not seeing the forest for the trees.

What is funny is that WSL was all about going out and testing his WCK -- which was one of YM's teachings ("Go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you."). You guys might want to adopt that aspect of his teachings as well. :)

[k gledhill]

told you he would ...lmfao !

[chusauli]

Kevin,

Teaching one of my students who has not done his due diligence is great, however, it is low of you to bring him up, especially when he has little to do with this discussion. In the last several years, he has done little to keep up his personal training.

FWIW, I hear you're a good instructor.

I have no opinion of the PB method. I have seen WSL, Gary Lam, and David Peterson and think they do one of the better branches of Yip Man WCK.

Best regards,

[Knifefighter]

FFS Terrence!!! Why do you have to keep on???? You can't agure with me on this as I have first hand experience. WSL taught in YM school. There is no way that WSL would teach something that he wasn't taught. I have been told by many people and Ive also read it from interviews that WSL taught EXACTLY what YM taught him allbeit in a more systematical way. WSL had a close relationship with Philipp. This was confirmed to me WSL's own wife and best friend. Simo also confirmed my belief that Philipp shares WSL's thinking on Ving Tsun. I also know David Peterson personally and I regualry talk to one of Gary Lam's EX students. I have trained with many different lineages within the YM group and I know their systems and I know their thinking.............................YOU HAVEN"T GOT A F****ING CLUE!!!!!! You are just making a fool of yourself claiming to know such things when you clearly don't and I'm starting to think you just like winding people up becasue nobody can be that much of a W***ER!!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

GH

Actually, the guy who makes a fool of himself is the guy who rambles on and on about theoretical, non-fighting fantasy techniques, says he is going to post a clip sparring with said techniques and then never follows through.

Not only is someone who does this making a fool of himself, he is also showing himself to be a fraud.

[k gledhill]

Kevin,

Teaching one of my students who has not done his due diligence is great, however, it is low of you to bring him up, especially when he has little to do with this discussion. In the last several years, he has done little to keep up his personal training.

FWIW, I hear you're a good instructor.

I have no opinion of the PB method. I have seen WSL, Gary Lam, and David Peterson and think they do one of the better branches of Yip Man WCK.

Best regards,


I only use his attendance to convey to 'you know who' that I know roughly what he is talking about from first hand meeting but he is NOT doing what I am trying to explain....
not a personal dig ; ) we are mature adults ( well you are anyway ) so I am here to talk techniques and have WCK is WCK thrown at me with an arrogance that frankly is hilarious and here we are ....

please drop by NY whenever your able .

[k gledhill]

Actually, the guy who makes a fool of himself is the guy who rambles on and on about theoretical, non-fighting fantasy techniques, says he is going to post a clip sparring with said techniques and then never follows through.

Not only is someone who does this making a fool of himself, he is also showing himself to be a fraud.

Dale I'm a foolish Faker and truth be told....the guy with the camera tried to catch a falling women ( ex fireman) did his back so can't make class to give the movies to another student who knows how to dwnload them...hah ! sorry Dale ! you lack patience

[Graham H]

So he had a "close relationship"? BFD. So did Lam (WSL's assistant instructor for 14 years, and one of his fighters), so did Peterson, so did Wan, and so on.

)

Ok lets not blame "Gledhill" for this!!! He is only trying to do the right thing as he has many experiences in VT as I have and has come to the same conclusion as me. That doesnt mean everybody will and we have to agree that we all see things through different eyes. Its the human way. I'm not saying that we are 100% right and you are not 100% wrong. What I am saying is that in many circumstances Wing Chun as a whole is pants. Its shocking!!! Of course an average MMA guy will beat an average VT guy. Most VT guys talk. They dont like to train. They have long hair and pony tails and stupid little leather waistcoats and listen to Megadeath.

I don't care who has a perfect way of VT but what I do know is that most of it is imperfect and whether you learn a functional system or not...........if you train to fight.....you can fight......not everybody but u can do more than if you have never trained before.

GH

[anerlich]

They have long hair and pony tails and stupid little leather waistcoats and listen to Megadeath.

I don't have hair, don't wear waistcoats, and don't know who this Megadeath is.

I did learn to enjoy "Rust in Peace" and "Countdown to Extinction", which used to get heavy rotation during rolling at one of the BJJ gyms I attended several years back.

Of course, they were recorded by a band called Megadeth ...

Anyway, it's a free world, no one on here hassles you about your Abba and Justin Bieber collections.

[Sihing73]

I don't have hair, don't wear waistcoats, and don't know who this Megadeath is.
Anyway, it's a free world, no one on here hassles you about your Abba and Justin Bieber collections.

I also have no, or little hair, and listen to country music.

What's wrong with Abba? I happen to like them ;)

My youngest daughter (5) likes Justin Bieber too. So there :p

[anerlich]

My youngest daughter (5) likes Justin Bieber too. So there

Does she have long hair and a ponytail?

[Sihing73]

Does she have long hair and a ponytail?

Here is a pic of my youngest, Jada who is 5. Jada has wild hair and I rely on her sisters to do it, usually in a ponytail ;) Lord knows a single dad has no clue what to do with this hair, although perhaps once I have the "True Wing Chun" I may have more insight. LOL

BTW this is not our house but where their mom used to live in Philly.

[anerlich]

She's very pretty, Dave.

Sweetness and light are rare things indeed on the KFOWC forum.

[Sihing73]

She's very pretty, Dave.

Sweetness and light are rare things indeed on the KFOWC forum.

Thanks, she gets her looks from me :D

Now if she and her sisters would just learn WC...............................................

[jesper]

Thanks, she gets her looks from me :D

Now if she and her sisters would just learn WC...............................................

Then in 10 years you would have 2 kids who didnt listen to you and could kick your butt when they started throwing teenage hissy fit:)

[Wayfaring]

Thanks, she gets her looks from me :D

Now if she and her sisters would just learn WC...............................................

Right. So one of them can be a traditional CMA, the other one cross train, they can start flame wars on KFO here, establish lineage wars and "who's got teh r3al auth3ntic wC" wars, issue internet gong sau challenges, become lifelong enemies, and you will end up never being welcome in your own house.

:D:D:D

[anerlich]

Now if she and her sisters would just learn WC...............................................


Then in 10 years you would have 2 kids who didnt listen to you and could kick your butt when they started throwing teenage hissy fit:)

If he enrolled them at an MMA school instead they'd be kicking his butt in 3 months ... :D

[Sihing73]

If he enrolled them at an MMA school instead they'd be kicking his butt in 3 months ... :D

Heck, they already have me wrapped around their little fingers. They get just about anything they ask for, if I can do it. ;)

I am sure they would be better off with someone else, after all three girls and a single dad :eek: ! But, they are stuck with me for now:D

[theo]

Heck, they already have me wrapped around their little fingers. They get just about anything they ask for, if I can do it. ;)

I am sure they would be better off with someone else, after all three girls and a single dad :eek: ! But, they are stuck with me for now:D

sounds like they'll be just fine :)

[Phil Redmond]

I haven't looked through all the 17 pages of this thread to see if I've posted the following clips. If I have too bad . . . jk :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJpXq3fK_ic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kD2AdUEm3E&feature=related

[Graham H]

Phil

Can you please post the clips again with the other guys actually trying to hit you.

Its easy to do things like that when the other guy is allowing you to.

GH

[Sihing73]

Phil

Can you please post the clips again with the other guys actually trying to hit you.

Its easy to do things like that when the other guy is allowing you to.

GH

Hello Graham,

And your video is where???? Not your Sifu but you doing something.

It is easy to try and detract others but Phil puts his stuff out there. Take the clips for what they are worth, an explanation and example of Fook Sau. Also, Phil has put it on the line in numerous competitions within and outside the system.

What have you done??? ;)

[Graham H]

Hello Graham,

And your video is where???? Not your Sifu but you doing something.

It is easy to try and detract others but Phil puts his stuff out there. Take the clips for what they are worth, an explanation and example of Fook Sau. Also, Phil has put it on the line in numerous competitions within and outside the system.

What have you done??? ;)

Hello

You must of misinterpreted what I was asking. I wasn't detracting just asking a perfectly normal question.

I admire Phil for doing what he does. He puts fighters into competitions. Not many lineages do that.

What have I done????? Inside Ving Tsun.......nothing really. Does that matter?? Just because I have no trophies from VT and I don't have belts around my waist does that mean that my VT knowledge and abilities are questionable??

Maybe you can ask the people that have attacked me in the "real world" :D

95% of all VT schools waste their time doing useless things that wont work in a real fight. I don't agree with whats in those videos but I'm not questioning his or his students abilities to fight.

If Phil can post a clip with his student trying to attack him as he would in a real fight then I'll shut up. Until then I'm entitled to my opinion. :p

In my school we actually try to hit each other. Then you realize what works and what doesn't.

I used to do things like that in the Ip Chun lineage. I left thankfully when somebody from the WSL lineage kicked my sorry @ss. :D


GH

[t_niehoff]

Hello

You must of misinterpreted what I was asking. I wasn't detracting just asking a perfectly normal question.


In the WCK/TCMA world, asking perfectly normal questions typically "detract"!



I admire Phil for doing what he does. He puts fighters into competitions. Not many lineages do that.


So do mall karate schools.



What have I done????? Inside Ving Tsun.......nothing really. Does that matter?? Just because I have no trophies from VT and I don't have belts around my waist does that mean that my VT knowledge and abilities are questionable??


Having some belt doesn't prove anything -- after all, we know of WCK "masters" that apparently make up a MMA competition that they can "win" and post a photo of themselves holding a belt.

What matters is what YOU can do. And there is only one way to know that-- by doing it. People who train like fighters, whether they compete or not, are doing that constantly. That is, after all, the basis of sport.



Maybe you can ask the people that have attacked me in the "real world" :D


Oh, you mean the dreaded multiple ninjas that attacked you "on the str33t"? ;)



95% of all VT schools waste their time doing useless things that wont work in a real fight. I don't agree with whats in those videos but I'm not questioning his or his students abilities to fight.


Here's the thing, IF you train like a fighter, which means realistic sparring is the core of your training, you see very clearly what things work or not, and particularly what things work for you.

I think that stuff is silly too. Go look at the clips of Phil's guys "fighting" in comps and see for yourself -- do you see any of his guys doing any of that? That tells you.



If Phil can post a clip with his student trying to attack him as he would in a real fight then I'll shut up. Until then I'm entitled to my opinion. :p


Phil is putting up clips that show what he teaches and how he teaches. That says is all.



In my school we actually try to hit each other. Then you realize what works and what doesn't.


Whenever you train in a bubble, you are fooling yourself or allowing yourself to befooled.



I used to do things like that in the Ip Chun lineage. I left thankfully when somebody from the WSL lineage kicked my sorry @ss. :D
GH

Take the next step and go do some cross-training at a MMA or MT or boxing gym, and you'll have deja vu.

[Graham H]

In the WCK/TCMA world, asking perfectly normal questions typically "detract"!



So do mall karate schools.



Having some belt doesn't prove anything -- after all, we know of WCK "masters" that apparently make up a MMA competition that they can "win" and post a photo of themselves holding a belt.

What matters is what YOU can do. And there is only one way to know that-- by doing it. People who train like fighters, whether they compete or not, are doing that constantly. That is, after all, the basis of sport.



Oh, you mean the dreaded multiple ninjas that attacked you "on the str33t"? ;)



Here's the thing, IF you train like a fighter, which means realistic sparring is the core of your training, you see very clearly what things work or not, and particularly what things work for you.

I think that stuff is silly too. Go look at the clips of Phil's guys "fighting" in comps and see for yourself -- do you see any of his guys doing any of that? That tells you.



Phil is putting up clips that show what he teaches and how he teaches. That says is all.



Whenever you train in a bubble, you are fooling yourself or allowing yourself to befooled.



Take the next step and go do some cross-training at a MMA or MT or boxing gym, and you'll have deja vu.

Terence, Terence, Terence :rolleyes:

The Nnjas got me. I didnt see them coming. They were in the shadows. ;)

Sparring is the core of my training. I have the same approach as a boxer mainly because I used to be one.

We constantly put each other under pressure and the things in Phils videos do not work under pressure. Maybe its just me not being able to do it. :D

I don't train in bubble. If I wanted to train in MMA I would. I don't. I like PBVT. I have friends that do MMA. Just because they do doesn't automatically make them tough fighters.

In fact I would recommend anybody to a Boxing Club rather than show them the way to 90% of WCK schools

GH

[t_niehoff]

Sparring is the core of my training. I have the same approach as a boxer mainly because I used to be one.

We constantly put each other under pressure and the things in Phils videos do not work under pressure. Maybe its just me not being able to do it. :D


Lots of people "spar", so do people at mall karate schools -- even in the kid's classes.

It is not just the sparring but the QUALITY of the people you spar with that makes all the difference. This seems to be lost on people.

When you spar with people who are doing what you do -- your classmates -- you are training in a bubble. For example, look at the Boztepe people, they spar, they go really hard, but they only go with each other, and they are all doing the same thing (charging in with chain punching). They would make the same argument as you (we spar, it has worked for me on the str33t, etc.). One day sparring at a MMA or MT school would show them why that is a really poor idea.

Growth comes from continually and constantly putting yourself in uncomfortable positions, situations, from finding people who can routinely kick your ass, and training/sparring with them. Whenever you feel comfortable, you know that your growth has stopped.

[Knifefighter]

We constantly put each other under pressure and the things in Phils videos do not work under pressure. Maybe its just me not being able to do it. :D

Yeah, that would be you sucking... considering the fact that Phil's clips show his guys doing it in competitions (which is pretty much what would be considered as pressure).

[Graham H]

Knifefighter.

Of course I suck!!!!! And you??? .......you are amazing and I'm jealous of you. Your posts are very informative and your ideas about WCK far exceed anybody on this forum. Can you tell me where your school is so I can come and bow before you and offer you some tea Sifu????

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Phil

Can you please post the clips again with the other guys actually trying to hit you.

Its easy to do things like that when the other guy is allowing you to.

GH
Do you mean the chi sao part or the pre-contact part? In the pre-contact I was simply demonstrating moves from the dummy.
Would I do it that way if someone was really trying to hit me? Who knows. It would depend on many X-factors.
I do know the difference between a demo where everything works perfect and dealing with a resisting opponent. Remember, I did do full contact. That was a demo.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . I used to do things like that in the Ip Chun lineage. I left thankfully when somebody from the WSL lineage kicked my sorry @ss. :D
GH
This statement is what's wrong with many WC people. There are bad dudes in all lineages. There are people not so good in all lineages. I know some great fighters in many lineages.
It's the man fighting. Not the lineage. ;)

[Saboi Osmosis]

we actually try to hit each other. Then you realize what works and what doesn't.

I used to do things like that in the Ip Chun lineage. I left thankfully when somebody from the WSL lineage kicked my sorry @ss. :D

GH

Im from the Ip Chun lineage, the school I go to does throw realisitc punches at one and another.

Maybe you went to a poor school.

[Graham H]

This statement is what's wrong with many WC people. There are bad dudes in all lineages. There are people not so good in all lineages. I know some great fighters in many lineages.
It's the man fighting. Not the lineage. ;)

Phil

I agree.


S.O

Yes I did go to a poor school.

GH

[Saboi Osmosis]

Phil

I agree.


S.O

Yes I did go to a poor school.

GH

Then shouldnt speak about the Ip Chun linege in a bad way when you admit your last school was poor.

madness

[Graham H]

Then shouldnt speak about the Ip Chun linege in a bad way when you admit your last school was poor.

madness

SO

It was poor because it was Ip Chun lineage. I'll refer back to Phils statement that all lineages have people that can fight but as far as Ip Chun system goes..........................................bleu rgh!!!!!

I tried 4 different schools so you can't say I didn't persevere with it. Just giving an honest opinion. I'm entitled to that.

I also met Ip Chun twice. Once in UK and once in HK. I got very annoyed as he requested to be addressed as The Master.........Master of what???? So I asked him about Ip Man instead. :D

In fact I remember one school in HK where a very respected Teacher on this forum put a video of Ip Chun on performing Bil Jee and I sat there and watched him and all his students laugh at it like it was some sort of comedy dance.

The weird and wonderful world of WCK as always.

GH

[Saboi Osmosis]

SO

It was poor because it was Ip Chun lineage. I'll refer back to Phils statement that all lineages have people that can fight but as far as Ip Chun system goes..........................................bleu rgh!!!!!

I tried 4 different schools so you can't say I didn't persevere with it. Just giving an honest opinion. I'm entitled to that.

I also met Ip Chun twice. Once in UK and once in HK. I got very annoyed as he requested to be addressed as The Master.........Master of what???? So I asked him about Ip Man instead. :D

In fact I remember one school in HK where a very respected Teacher on this forum put a video of Ip Chun on performing Bil Jee and I sat there and watched him and all his students laugh at it like it was some sort of comedy dance.

The weird and wonderful world of WCK as always.

GH

maybe your school didnt have a great relationship with him???
each to his own and all and I suppose your allowed your opinion, but you wouldnt catch me turning my nose up at what other people do.

Ive met him a few times and everytime he has been a gent.

could you post this video of him doing BJ please or pm to me