The Snake Crane Wing Chun of Law Tiu Wen

[Firehawk4]

http://www.slideshare.net/filination/snake-wing-chun-mun

[Hendrik]

The trend of history sound right.

Chi Sin Here could mean Miu Shun who related to Snake and Kwan Xi and Emei as in other lineage of WCK.


The sets and chi sau needs to be further investigate to see if it really is from the 1850 or a modern Yip Manized system.

[LSWCTN1]

http://www.slideshare.net/filination/snake-wing-chun-mun

could a chinese language reader investigate whether this is Lo Chiu Woon 's Weng Chun art? Is Sun kam not Dai Fa Min Kam?

[CFT]

The names aren't accompanied by Chinese chars. so I can't tell. But the romanization seems to correlate.

Paul T. from this forum has seen them in action in HK. Here is some brief research I did for him from Internet sources:


They start off with Chi-Sin the Shaolin monk (one of the 5 elders of Southern Shaolin).

Next-gen unknown before it is passed to a member of the Red Boat Opera troupe: Sun Kam
aka "1st Painted Face" Kam ("Dai Faa Min" Kam). 1st painted face is a role in the opera troupe.

Which would put Law Tai Wen in the same generation as Leung Jan,
Law Ting Chau -> Chan Wah Sun
Law Chiu Wing -> Yip Man
Mok Wai Keung -> Lun Gai

Of course age wise it doesn't match up but in terms of generations it does.

I think Yuen Kay Shan WCK trace their lineage to Dai Faa Min Kam.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik is right when he says, "The sets and chi sau needs to be further investigate to see if it really is from the 1850 or a modern Yip Manized system."

AFAIK, "Dai Faa Min" Kam taught weng chun, not wing chun -- and his curriculum didn't include the SLT, CK, BJ, etc. Moreover, the article refers to the siu lim tao (not siu lien tao), and typically "lim" is the foshanese pronunciation of "nim" which would indicate a Yip influence.

[LSWCTN1]

Hendrik is right when he says, "The sets and chi sau needs to be further investigate to see if it really is from the 1850 or a modern Yip Manized system."

AFAIK, "Dai Faa Min" Kam taught weng chun, not wing chun -- and his curriculum didn't include the SLT, CK, BJ, etc. Moreover, the article refers to the siu lim tao (not siu lien tao), and typically "lim" is the foshanese pronunciation of "nim" which would indicate a Yip influence.

could go into this, but to me the evidence doesnt add up, personally... i think its the exact same art, but different teachers put emphasis on different things. Many DDL decendees claim that Tam Kong was an 'unbeaten weng chun grappler'. His own grandson has never heard of such a description...

Not to say that he wasnt, but people change HIStory for economical/personal reasons... i have never heard of Chu Chong Man mentioning (although he may have) that his Leung Jan wIng chun was different to his Fung Siu Ching wEng Chun.

YKS said it was the same

Fok Bo Chuen supposedly learnt both arts though, so it may have been the same as YKS originally learnt but still a mish mash of the two...

Yip Man supposedly learnt from DDL too - if you believe soem HIStory... so his art will be interspersed.

wEng chun supposedly doesnt have YGYKM but a notable wEng chun teacher has been videod, under the tutalage of Wai Yan, performing in YGYKM.

i think its the same, personally.. just diferent emphasis...

[t_niehoff]

could go into this, but to me the evidence doesnt add up, personally... i think its the exact same art, but different teachers put emphasis on different things. Many DDL decendees claim that Tam Kong was an 'unbeaten weng chun grappler'. His own grandson has never heard of such a description...

Not to say that he wasnt, but people change HIStory for economical/personal reasons... i have never heard of Chu Chong Man mentioning (although he may have) that his Leung Jan wIng chun was different to his Fung Siu Ching wEng Chun.

YKS said it was the same

Fok Bo Chuen supposedly learnt both arts though, so it may have been the same as YKS originally learnt but still a mish mash of the two...

Yip Man supposedly learnt from DDL too - if you believe soem HIStory... so his art will be interspersed.

wEng chun supposedly doesnt have YGYKM but a notable wEng chun teacher has been videod, under the tutalage of Wai Yan, performing in YGYKM.

i think its the same, personally.. just diferent emphasis...

I don't know what you mean by "the same".

The curriculum of wing chun is different than the curriculum of weng chun, although since both are close-range, contact fighting arts there will of course be overlap in tools, etc. Yes, the emphasis is different, as I think weng chun has a different approach to their in-fighting (generally much closer, greater emphasis on controlling aspects, etc.). But since both pertain to close-range, inside fighting, it is not surprising that people from one may find the other useful, and that explains why Chu, Yuen, and Andreas Hoffman today, have cross-trained in both.

[Hendrik]

could go into this, but to me the evidence doesnt add up, personally... i think its the exact same art, but different teachers put emphasis on different things. Many DDL decendees claim that Tam Kong was an 'unbeaten weng chun grappler'. His own grandson has never heard of such a description...

Not to say that he wasnt, but people change HIStory for economical/personal reasons... i have never heard of Chu Chong Man mentioning (although he may have) that his Leung Jan wIng chun was different to his Fung Siu Ching wEng Chun.

YKS said it was the same

Fok Bo Chuen supposedly learnt both arts though, so it may have been the same as YKS originally learnt but still a mish mash of the two...

Yip Man supposedly learnt from DDL too - if you believe soem HIStory... so his art will be interspersed.

wEng chun supposedly doesnt have YGYKM but a notable wEng chun teacher has been videod, under the tutalage of Wai Yan, performing in YGYKM.

i think its the same, personally.. just diferent emphasis...


IMHO, Enough those he says she says. and name dropping, Go directly to the signature of the art and find out. what one said better match up with the DNA signature of the art.


Fong siu ching Weng Chun is absolutely not Leung Chan's Wing Chun. Check out the power generation of both system and the CLF set within the Weng Chun. Fung Family direct from Leung is still exist. So, compare them for past few generation and see for yourself.


In additional, CLF type of power generation and strategy is also very different compare to the WCK by Fung Family direct from Leung Jan and YKS and the Yik Kam SLT. and They cannot mix. I am from Cho family and I know IT CANT because I practice both --- it is different animal.


If Weng Chun is Wing Chun why is there CLF set in Weng Chun?

in additional, what is YGKYM? to performing it is not good enough in a master level, one needs to explain what is YGKYM in detail to compare. Otherwise, even Hung Gar has YGKYM in their Iron wire and Lam sai wing is doing it, is that doing WCK?


It is about different style not different emphasis.

One must know what is the uniqueness of WCK. why is it different then White crane of fujian, southern Shao lin, Mantis, Ngo Cho... Hung Gar.... other wise one is not doing WCK fully.

[Paul T England]

Hi guys,

I got the chance to see they guys in action back in april. Many similar things to ip man line with basic drills but the forms had lots of major differences.

Some of my students trained but I just watched. They seemed ok but did not blow me away.

here are a few demo clips, not the best representation but better than nothing.

snipets at 29s, 1.17s and 1.57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to5Xyu6cnKQ

From what I have seem most wing chun is mixed with other southern / village styles..

pan nam family also do hung gar

pa fai lien grandmaster was teaching his son mok gar

etc.

Thats why i like ip man line because he seemed to make an effort to improve wing chun and streamline it. (maybe he did not have complete success....haha)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hendrik]

Hi guys,

I got the chance to see they guys in action back in april. Many similar things to ip man line with basic drills but the forms had lots of major differences.

Some of my students trained but I just watched. They seemed ok but did not blow me away.

here are a few demo clips, not the best representation but better than nothing.

snipets at 29s, 1.17s and 1.57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to5Xyu6cnKQ

From what I have seem most wing chun is mixed with other southern / village styles..

pan nam family also do hung gar

pa fai lien grandmaster was teaching his son mok gar

etc.

Thats why i like ip man line because he seemed to make an effort to improve wing chun and streamline it. (maybe he did not have complete success....haha)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk



Thanks and appreicate.


IMHO, in the clip, there are trace of older WCK, not as high quality but they are there.

[Hendrik]

Firefox,



With the elements we discuss in the Why WCK WCK thread, one could use those elements as reference to study the evolution of this WCK lineage to see what converge and what differences..

From

http://www.slideshare.net/filination/snake-wing-chun-mun

and compare with other WCK lineage's legend

We could say, the Name Ng Mui or Chi Sim or Shao Lin...etc are more like to be just code name.

however behind the code name, Snake and Crane signatures within WCK are a facts. The red boat opera union or King Fa association relationship with WCK are facts.



Get down to this level of details in your research and your will see WCK's history, developement, signatures....

[ccwayne]

Yesterday, I surfed the web about Snake Crane Wing Chun ( 蛇鶴詠春 ), and accidentally find this 'The Snake Crane Wing Chun of Law Tiu Wen' in this Kung Fu Magazine forum and would like to share more information with you.

Snake Crane Wing Chun is a very low profile tributary of Wing Chun in the past 150 years because of the governing rules(Snake Crane Wing Chun Mun). It becomes a Law's family oriented since the grandfather, Law Tiu Wen, of Law Chiu Wing learned the skills from 'Sun Kam', RedBoat. In this lineage, they mainly uphold and prolong the skills in his family instead of promoting. Now, Law Chiu Wing is over 80 years old and Qing dynasty was over in the early of last century. He has only three daughters without intention to succeed, and put it open to public four years ago.

All traditional forms of Snake Crane Wing Chun(SCWC) retaining a lot of imitations of Snake and Crane movement. Snake movement is on softness(sticking hand), while Crane movement is on hardness(power bridge)（蛇纏鶴頂）. 'Softness', 'Following', 'Imperturbability' and 'Concentration' are the four keys to SCWC. All the forms in SCWC are hardware（套路） and need software（心法） to drive.

An interview had been made in March this year on the 'Territory-wide Survey of Intagible Culture Heritage in Hong Kong' conducted by the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

Below, there are six links to the slideshare.net relating to this lineage and some had been posted in Chinese in the 'New Martial Hero Magazine', Hong Kong before, now re-edited.


1) The evolution of Wing Chun in last sixty years (in Hong Kong)

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/the-evolution-of-wing-chun-in-last-sixty-years-in-hong-kong


2) History - Snake Crane Wing Chun Mun

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/history-snake-crane-wing-chun-mun


3) Snake Crane Wing Chun : Three forms, Twin knives and One pole

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/snake-crane-wing-chun-three-forms-twin-knives-and-one-pole


4) The formation of Snake Crane Wing Chun Martial Arts Association 2009-01-08

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/the-formation-of-snake-crane-wing-chun-martial-arts-association-20090108


5) Conservation snake crane wing chun mun 20080707-1

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/conservation-snake-crane-wing-chun-mun-200807071


6) Territory-wide Survey of Intangible Culture Heritage in Hong Kong : Snake Crane Wing Chun ( 蛇鶴詠春 )

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/territorywide-survey-of-intangible-culture-heritage-in-hong-kong


Finally, please also take a moment to read and visit the following links. Then you will find more information about 'Snake Crane Wing Chun'( 蛇鶴詠春 )

A). Snake Crane Wing Chun facebook's wall: (with video on SiuLimTau and ChumKiu)


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002994052797


B). Snake Crane Wing Chun's page :

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Snake-Crane-Wing-Chun-Yung-Kwok-Wing-Athletic-Association%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5%E7 %BF%81%E5%9C%8B%E6%A6%AE%E9%AB%94%E8%82%B2%E6%9C%8 3/165747543494748



C). Website of Snake Crane Wing Chun Yung Kwok Wing Athletic Association :

http://www.scwc.com.hk/SCWC

[ccwayne]

These are old picture of young aged 'Law Chiu Wing' and old picture of his diciples 'Chan Wing Chan, now aged 71 and Cheung Chi To' sparring. The picture on the wall is Grandmaster 'Law Tiu Wen', he got the skills from RedBoat 'Sun Kam', and shows the third generation of Snake Crane Wing Chun ( 蛇鶴詠春三傳 ).

[ccwayne]

The following link is the GuangZhou Wing Chun ( 廣州詠春 ) in Wikipedia,

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%A3%E5%B7%9E%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5%E6%8B%B3


Clicking the link will display the following :
---------------------------------------------------------------
廣州詠春拳

廣州詠春拳亦稱蛇鶴詠春拳、阮奇山詠春拳，是詠春拳的一分支。
---------------------------------------------------------------


Compare the lineage of GuangZhou Wing Chun with the lineage of Snake Crane Wing Chun
=== ===========================================
GuangZhou Wing Chun :

SunKam -- FungSiuChing -- YuenKayShan -- SungNung(GoungZhouWC/ SnakeCraneWC/ YuenKaySanWC)
申錦 -- 馮少青 -- 阮奇山 -- 岑能（ 廣州詠春 / 蛇鶴詠春 / 阮奇山詠春 ）

(FungSiuChing : SunKam early year disciple)

Snake Crane Wing Chun :

ChiSin -- SunKam -- LawTiuWen -- LawTingChau -- LawChiuWing(Snake Crane Wing Chun)
至善 -- 申錦 -- 羅悌雲 -- 羅定周 -- 羅昭榮（蛇鶴詠春）

(LawTiuWen : SunKam late year disciple)

=== ===========================================
From the Wikipedia, GuangZhou Wing Chun also named Snake Crane Wing Chun or Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.

Compared with the Snake Crane Wing Chun, both of them are still using the old naming terms on their techniques. Also, the three forms of them are very similar and they use the same name on their twin knieves "YeeGeKimYeungDuMingDao（二字拑羊奪命刀）".

Compared with other lineages not from Sun Kam, there are very big differences on the forms, on the technique and techniques names, on the weapon form and weapons name, on the stances and etc.

If the information on the '廣州詠春拳'(GuangZhou Wing Chun) in Wikipedia is valid, it is clear that the two inter-related lineages traced back to Sun Kam are really called Snake Crane Wing Chun.

[dfl]

It may not be well known in the west, but there are plenty of videos on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E 6%98%A5&oq=%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=262361l262361l0l263944l1l1l0l0l0l0l174l174l 0.1l1l0
The first 2 sets appear to have a very similar flavor to YKS and they appear to use the huen sau platform.

[Hendrik]

It may not be well known in the west, but there are plenty of videos on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E 6%98%A5&oq=%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=262361l262361l0l263944l1l1l0l0l0l0l174l174l 0.1l1l0
The first 2 sets appear to have a very similar flavor to YKS and they appear to use the huen sau platform.

Thanks.

Great clips!

The emei snake engine seem to be unavoidable for WCK.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks.

Great clips!

The emei snake engine seem to be unavoidable for WCK.

lol great comment hendrik...i must commend you...your english is alot better!