What MMA did to Kung FU

[SavvySavage]

What mma did to kung fu was was a very good thing. It essentially broke fighting down into three ranges: striking, standing grappling, and ground fighting. Fighting had always been in these ranges but mma trained the skills of each range specifically. Whether or not each fighter develops skills in all ranges and is freely able to combine them is up to each individual. MMA trains these skill sets without years of forms training and two-man form training. Skills are learned in months instead of years and each person can see himself improving unlike in the Kung fu paradigm. In the kung fu paradigm often forms replace belts.

MMA reintroduced to Kung fu what bare bones fight training looks like instead of what animals may look like and feel like when engaging in combat. Some would argue that Kung fu training was like current mma training but this argument is destroyed by the word "was". Kung fu says this: "This move can be this technique or this or this. Imagine the technique while doing the form and after that we'll try some of the moves."

MMA says, "Let's train this technique by actually doing it and then do it against someone resisting.".

How I've modified my training:
1. Less time doing forms.
2. More conditioning.
3. Less emphasis on trapping.
4. More training against resisting opponents and less time on compliant short hand drills.
5. More time getting hit.
6. Less sensitivity exercises.
7. More learning sensitivity by reacting to resisting opponents.

Most of what I posted were things that I've subtracted fromnmy training. How has mma changed your training? Has it changed at all? Why or why not.

[YouKnowWho]

How has mma changed your training? Has it changed at all? Why or why not.
When you throw a matchbox in the air and hit it, that matchbox will fly away. When you put a matchbox on the ground, even a 5 years old can step on and smash it. When you take someone down to the ground, and hit him when the hard ground is belind his head, your punching power will go all the way into his skull. This is just common sense in CMA and not any new idea from MMA.

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

How I've modified my training:
1. Less time doing forms.
2. More conditioning.
3. Less emphasis on trapping.
4. More training against resisting opponents and less time on compliant short hand drills.
5. More time getting hit.
6. Less sensitivity exercises.
7. More learning sensitivity by reacting to resisting opponents.



1. as you advance, you should not do forms really much at all except to give them to someone else.

2. YOu should always be doing conditioning from day one.

3. wing chun? lol

4. no brainer, compliance is for first off demo to see the tech, after that it is drilled in free form.

5. not necessary, but if you like that sort of thing, good for you.

6. again, these are beginner concepts to understand when and where to react to someone else pressing on you or moving away, etc.

7. S.O.P if you are advanced

None of what you are doing really differs from what kungfu practice is.

I find it funny how people to this day confuse performance wu shu with chinese pugilistic arts.

MMA draws everything they have from outside. mma is not a style, it's a mix of styles and frankly it doesn't matter what style, it matters how you train and it matter how tenacious you are.

These lines of division are false and put up by those with closed minds.

As martial arts have been around forever, it is only fools who go on about one thing being better than another. That's arguing from ignorance and it happens a lot from mma guys who cherry pick some fruit loop with a weird outlook as their example of what kungfu is or is not.

hahaha. Goofs is what they are, don't fall into that trap. Train your kungfu properly.

Guys who draw the line and hold themselves up as better...well those guys have other motivations.

Most of the even keeled guys I know that practice mma as their thing are all to happy to grab some tidbit out of any martial art. they naturally gravitate towards those arts that are used competitively and that makes sense because that's what mma does. competes.

[EarthDragon]

MMA I feel hasnt changed kung fu at all, but changed perspoective but it depends on what your training for.

I find that majority of MMA guys are young and looking to get into fighting for sport competition or for a living and thats cool for them, but there are many other reasons people train in Kung fu other than the basic element of fighting.

So if you are looking to improve your flexability, learn an art form, , study the culture, continute the lineage, get into shape, practice mediatation, learn internally, incresease concentration and focus etc etc, thier are many many reasons people study kung fu. there is only a couple people study MMA.

I have 30 -40 year old students do you think they want to roll around on the mat? I have 20 year old students the wrestling class, do you think they want to learn forms?

different strokes for different folks.

BTW 8 step praying mantis is made up of 14 other styles so it is a mixed martial art as well, but its still called kung fu. leave it to america to coin mixed martial art and think this is new

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA gives EVERY MA a venue to test his COMPLETE arsenal, period.
The rest is up to the individual.

[EarthDragon]

just throwing this out there but who thinks MMA changed boxing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

just throwing this out there but who thinks MMA changed boxing?

Besides being a venue for some name boxers to make some cash on the side?
Not at all, as it did NOT change DIRECTLY Kickboxing, MT, Judo, or any other established SPORT combat system.

[David Jamieson]

MMA gives EVERY MA a venue to test his COMPLETE arsenal, period.
The rest is up to the individual.

well, not including weapons of any variety.

some ma are strictly weapon based.

[RenDaHai]

Many people focus on the difference in technique between Kung Fu styles and MMA. I don't think this is a correct way of looking at it. The technique of all styles is good. What makes it great is when you drill it relentlessly and then apply it in high pressure situations. This is why i think many people consider MMA to be more successful in combat. I don't think its that the techniques are better, its the training methodology. And its not better per say, but its suited to combat. If you took a kung fu style, focused on a few of your fave techniques and practiced it like they do in an MMA class, then it would be very successful too.

I don't think MMA has changed KungFu but i think it has changed the training methodology that people use. People are more aware of how techniques need to be practiced if you want to apply them successfully.

[RenDaHai]

MMA gives EVERY MA a venue to test his COMPLETE arsenal, period.
The rest is up to the individual.

Come on Ronin you know thats not strictly true. I mean If you changed just one rule say for example allowing strikes to the groin it would COMPLETELY change the stance and footwork and kicking technique of MMA combat. I mean, everyone leaves the groin open the whole time. I think that small change you would see stances and footwork becoming a lot more 'traditional'.

It would change the grappling a bit too....Have you ever seen those ancient greek statues... when they're wrestling one guy is always clawing the other guys junk. (actually scratch that, maybe they wern't really wrestling, never know with the ancient greeks)

The point is MMA doesn't allow you to test your COMPLETE arsenal... but it does get you to test your WILL POWER which i think is the most important weapon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Come on Ronin you know thats not strictly true. I mean If you changed just one rule say for example allowing strikes to the groin it would COMPLETELY change the stance and footwork and kicking technique of MMA combat. I mean, everyone leaves the groin open the whole time. I think that small change you would see stances and footwork becoming a lot more 'traditional'.

It would change the grappling a bit too....Have you ever seen those ancient greek statues... when they're wrestling one guy is always clawing the other guys junk. (actually scratch that, maybe they wern't really wrestling, never know with the ancient greeks)

The point is MMA doesn't allow you to test your COMPLETE arsenal... but it does get you to test your WILL POWER which i think is the most important weapon.

Sure it does, I've fought MMA/VT in which the ONLY rule was Obey the ref, when he says stop, you stop.
I've also fought were there were no rules and had guys try to bite, eye gouge, kick and even bite the groin, LOL !
And what works in MMA NOW, was what worked then VS those types.
And I am NOT alone in that observation.

Sure MMA has more rules NOW, but just walk into ANY MMA gym or BJJ school and drop a challenge for no rules and you will find a willing partner for your experiments.
\

[TenTigers]

Kung fu says this: "This move can be this technique or this or this. Imagine the technique while doing the form and after that we'll try some of the moves."

sorry, but that is asinine.
Learn the move, practice it with graduating levels of resistance, THEN, learn the form. What you said is a competely backwards method of teaching Gung-Fu.

[RenDaHai]

@ Ronin

Ok, fair enough.

I still think it would change the game quite a bit, but your probably right, I'm sure a lot of people would accept a no rules challenge.... Although there have always been places to find that kind of action.

[EarthDragon]

saavy,

How I've modified my training:
1. Less time doing forms.
2. More conditioning.
3. Less emphasis on trapping.
4. More training against resisting opponents and less time on compliant short hand drills.
5. More time getting hit.
6. Less sensitivity exercises.
7. More learning sensitivity by reacting to resisting opponents.

1. why did you give up the flavor of your paticular stlye? forms are the core
applications of your style be proud of them, maybe focus on the application of each
individual move instead of the whole form
2. you should have been conditioning all along
3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.
4. you must perfect the tech with a partner who is willing to help you understand
the dynamics of the movement, then perform it on a resisting opponet to make
sure it works
5. LOL the goal is not to GET hit, why on earth would you spend more time getting
hit, conditioning your face by getting punched is not a good idea.
6. when you can read your oppents (Yi) intent its is that much easier to overcome
them, every fighter telepgrahs thier intent, its up to you to train how to read it
7. same as above.

PS when we trained MMA for the UFC we rolled around practcing tech with non resiting opponentss until the tech was learned then we tried it out resisting oppents.... this is no diffrent than kung fu, karate, boxing, tae kwon do or wrestling

[RenDaHai]

I've also fought were there were no rules and had guys try to bite, eye gouge, kick and even bite the groin, LOL !

\

Whoah! surely thats gotta be a match finisher... I mean who continues fighting with Mauled Nads?

I think the whole eye gauging thing is over rated... I tried to do it to a guy once but he screwed his eyes up so tight i couldn't get my thumb in...And even with his eyes closed he could still grapple. I've always had a lot of success with biting and a swift backhand slap to the nuts though.

[SavvySavage]

sorry, but that is asinine.
Learn the move, practice it with graduating levels of resistance, THEN, learn the form. What you said is a competely backwards method of teaching Gung-Fu.

A$$-backwards or not I have heard this in more than one place.


How's the new school location doing for you? Come to think of it...I'm not sure where your old school was but the question still stands. Ha.


Has anyone ordered Chinese food from you yet?

[Knifefighter]

The point is MMA doesn't allow you to test your COMPLETE arsenal...

And neither does traditional training. At least MMA lets you train the main weapons at full force.

[IronWeasel]

MMA gives EVERY MA a venue to test his COMPLETE arsenal, period.
The rest is up to the individual.



True.

Unless your arsenal includes:

(1) Butting with the head.
(2) Eye gouging of any kind.
(3) Biting.
(4) Hair pulling.
(5) Fishhooking.
(6) Groin attacks of any kind.
(7) Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
(8) Small joint manipulation.
(9) Striking to the spine or back of head.
(10) Striking downward using the point of the elbow. (Arcing elbow strikes are
permitted).
(11) Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation grabbing the trachea.
(12) Clawing, twisting or pinching the flesh.
(13) Grabbing the clavicle.
(14) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent..
(15) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
(16) Stomping on a grounded opponent.
(17) Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

http://aco.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=PFdSUupAIJM%3d&tabid=58

:o

[Knifefighter]

Come on Ronin you know thats not strictly true. I mean If you changed just one rule say for example allowing strikes to the groin it would COMPLETELY change the stance and footwork and kicking technique of MMA combat. I mean, everyone leaves the groin open the whole time. I think that small change you would see stances and footwork becoming a lot more 'traditional'.

It would change the grappling a bit too....Have you ever seen those ancient greek statues... when they're wrestling one guy is always clawing the other guys junk. (actually scratch that, maybe they wern't really wrestling, never know with the ancient greeks)
.

What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. These days, fewer people believe this fantasy.

[Knifefighter]

True.

Unless your arsenal includes:

(1) Butting with the head.
(2) Eye gouging of any kind.
(3) Biting.
(4) Hair pulling.
(5) Fishhooking.
(6) Groin attacks of any kind.
(7) Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
(8) Small joint manipulation.
(9) Striking to the spine or back of head.
(10) Striking downward using the point of the elbow. (Arcing elbow strikes are
permitted).
(11) Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation grabbing the trachea.
(12) Clawing, twisting or pinching the flesh.
(13) Grabbing the clavicle.
(14) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent..
(15) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
(16) Stomping on a grounded opponent.
(17) Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

http://aco.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=PFdSUupAIJM%3d&tabid=58

:o

And neither does traditional training. The difference is with traditional training you fantasize that you will somehow be able to pull those things off.

[Knifefighter]

well, not including weapons of any variety.

some ma are strictly weapon based.

Unless they are sparring/fighting full contact in a weapons-based environment, they are wasting their time.

[SavvySavage]

saavy,


1. why did you give up the flavor of your paticular stlye? forms are the core
applications of your style be proud of them, maybe focus on the application of each
individual move instead of the whole form
2. you should have been conditioning all along
3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.
4. you must perfect the tech with a partner who is willing to help you understand
the dynamics of the movement, then perform it on a resisting opponet to make
sure it works
5. LOL the goal is not to GET hit, why on earth would you spend more time getting
hit, conditioning your face by getting punched is not a good idea.
6. when you can read your oppents (Yi) intent its is that much easier to overcome
them, every fighter telepgrahs thier intent, its up to you to train how to read it
7. same as above.

PS when we trained MMA for the UFC we rolled around practcing tech with non resiting opponentss until the tech was learned then we tried it out resisting oppents.... this is no diffrent than kung fu, karate, boxing, tae kwon do or wrestling


I should probably elaborate on the 7 things I listed. What the hell did I type again in the original post? lol.

1. I believe that people get trapped by forms especially when trying to apply them in sparring. Forms have core applications BUT many times I've seen people try to extrapolate variations of techniques from them that only fit specific situations, sometimes look unrealistic, and cannot be applied in sparring.

2. Conditioning takes many forms so technically I've been doing it all along. But there is a persistent belief that forms are a good way to condition the body. I find this to not be true at all. Imagine if swimmers were taught to do a swimming form in the air for months and then thrown into the Olympics? They would not fare well.

3. Trapping is a huge part of Northern Mantis so I can see why you feel this way. But I've been finding that the kind of trapping that gets taught doesn't work well against people actually moving to hit you. I think trapping works well when demonstrating technique and is good to develop some hand sensitivity but getting stuck in this phase leads to frustration because arm trapping is extremely hard against strong people and skilled people.

4. When I said practicing technique against a resisting opponent I wasn't talking about push hands where two dudes just push each other a few inches away. And I definitely wasn't talking about me doing a technique and the other guy, fully knowing what I'm about to do, resists it on purpose. I was talking about randori practices involving striking and throwing where both people are going against each other.

5. When I said get hit more I wasn't referring to let people punch me in the face to get conditioned. LOL! Does anyone actually do this? I was talking about actual contact training. When I studied aikido, karate, and ba gua. In these three classes there was virtually no contact. If anyone got hit it was an accident from doing technique but there was never any hard contact. Only really soft contact. The people in these classes were reluctant to engage in such practices.

6. It's not easy to read an opponents intent. Sparring is a good way to get experience in this.

[Knifefighter]

3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.

Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.

[Dragonzbane76]

Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.

i never understood why people got wrapped up in trapping. I learned it in my younger days but never found it very "functional" to say the least. Now i have used sticky hands but thats different.

[TenTigers]

A$$-backwards or not I have heard this in more than one place.


How's the new school location doing for you? Come to think of it...I'm not sure where your old school was but the question still stands. Ha.


Has anyone ordered Chinese food from you yet?

1) you are right, and that's the sad truth.
MMA is a wake-up call for these guys to start training their art correctly, as it was meant to be trained. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Take your techniques and drill them properly.

2)The new location is AMAZING! But..we haven't opened yet. We had a major plumbing glitch withthe town of Huntington,which after many weeks, and mucho denaro, we have fixed, and are awaiting our final inspection for our CO.
We have a stack of people who have come in waiting to sign up. You should stop by and see this place-nothing like this has ever been done- a large scale, traditional Mo-Kwoon, in an upscale shopping center.

3) Sifu James Cama called me up last night and asked for an order of Lo-Mein!

[RenDaHai]

What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. These days, fewer people believe this fantasy.

Yeah, I'm not against MMA, And i like realistic training, but sorry i have used groin attacks before, and yes it does change things a bit. If you allow it you find yourself protecting the groin like it was your face, and you have to hold yourself a little different. And step a little more carefully.

But as Sanjuro said I'm sure in any MMA gym there are people willing to fight you with no rules. Just don't assume everyone who trains kung fu has only fought battles in their mind.

[MightyB]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

Yep, that's sounds about right.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

Good post. Pretty much says it all.

One thing I want to point out is the forms debate, although as old and crusty as a grandma's dentures, still makes me wonder. Most Kung Fu forms I have seen include too many unrealistic movements that one has to "break down" and "decipher" than train them realistically and with resistance. I always find it funny how the basics of any good fighting art are simple, to the point, trained the way you will apply them, and are not practiced while someone prances around in stances and movements they will NEVER use while fighting. Just thought I would throw that out there.

P.S. I know, I know, I have never seen "teh realz" Kung Fu forms:D

[EarthDragon]

saavy,

to comment back without cutting and pasting as its too long I will list my rebuttle in numbers. so please go back and reference my comments to yours.

1. agreed, people CAN get trapped up in forms and collect too many of them without every fully understanding the applications that are in them this is true, but their are many MA's that dont get trapped up in form collection without purpose.
2. forms condition the body for agility grace, balance and foundation. not for toughnees or conditioning of sau the hands or feet, this is done by striking, IP finger srenghtening etc etc
3. what kind of trapping that gets taught doesnt work you ask? IMO incorrect methods, not enough practice and lousy teachers. trapping an arm against an opponent chest while you are doing a ground and pound it still trapping. But one should never get stuck in any one part of the cpomplete whole.
4. this should be part of any intermediate level of ANY martial art chinese or otherwise.

5. if you studied those styles and they didnt let you have ANY contact, you were with bad teacher or you wernt in it long enough. I have some beginner students (less than a 6 solid months) who cant fight and dont know applications yet, but to say aikido karate and bagau dont practice contact or just soft contact ubsurd

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, I'm not against MMA, And i like realistic training, but sorry i have used groin attacks before, and yes it does change things a bit. If you allow it you find yourself protecting the groin like it was your face, and you have to hold yourself a little different. And step a little more carefully.

Most people have the groin attack thing covered by about 5th grade or so.

[IronFist]

What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people.

This.

It shattered the following illusions that were (are) commonly held my TMA'ists:

- There are secret techniques you can do to stop much larger opponents (how many ads for these secret systems did you see in the backs of MA mags in the 80s and 90s?)

- Forms give you a large arsenal of effective fighting techniques

- You can practice alone and then be adequately prepared to fight a resisting opponent

- 10-hit combos are an effective defense against a punch (because attackers leave their arms out there after throwing said punch)

- Size doesn't matter

- Strength doesn't matter

- Don't worry about grapplers, you can stop a takedown with a knee to the face

- Your out of shape instructor is "too deadly" to spar with you

There are a lot more, but that's a good list.

Before MMA, I lived in this delusional world created by martial arts myths that I learned in Karate class as a kid. One myth was that I was actually able to competently defend myself because I had karate training.

After 10 minutes in an MMA class, my entire reality had changed. Years of myths and BS and "MA social conditioning" were wiped away. It was a little depressing; all I wanted from MA was to be an effective fighter, and I had been doing everything wrong. For years:

Studying forms for secret techniques? Worthless for actual fighting.

Size and strength? Phenomenally important (unless the other person is a COMPLETE noob)

Your out of shape instructor? Never been in a fight a day in his life.

10-hit combos? Worthless. Real opponents that are actually trying to hit you don't leave their arms out there waiting for you.

Grapplers will gladly eat your knee to the face (with which you will probably miss, anyway) to take you down and dominate you within 10 seconds, especially if you don't know what you're doing on the ground).

If you've never trained against a resisting opponent then it doesn't matter even if you've trained hours a day for years; you will lose to a boxer with 1 month of training.

[EarthDragon]

dragon,
i never understood why people got wrapped up in trapping. I learned it in my younger days but never found it very "functional" to say the least. Now i have used sticky hands but thats different.

trapping allows you to control your opponet.

you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.

(tui sao) sticky hands is version of trapping

ironeagle,

I always find it funny how the basics of any good fighting art are simple, to the point, trained the way you will apply them, and are not practiced while someone prances around in stances and movements they will NEVER use while fighting.

please understand, forms are meant for many reasons other than just fighting, people practice weapons but dont intend on cutting off someones head if they get into a scwabble. so is thier practice usless? or does it benefit them in thier own way????

[SavvySavage]

saavy,

to comment back without cutting and pasting as its too long I will list my rebuttle in numbers. so please go back and reference my comments to yours.

1. agreed, people CAN get trapped up in forms and collect too many of them without every fully understanding the applications that are in them this is true, but their are many MA's that dont get trapped up in form collection without purpose.
2. forms condition the body for agility grace, balance and foundation. not for toughnees or conditioning of sau the hands or feet, this is done by striking, IP finger srenghtening etc etc
3. what kind of trapping that gets taught doesnt work you ask? IMO incorrect methods, not enough practice and lousy teachers. trapping an arm against an opponent chest while you are doing a ground and pound it still trapping. But one should never get stuck in any one part of the cpomplete whole.
4. this should be part of any intermediate level of ANY martial art chinese or otherwise.

5. if you studied those styles and they didnt let you have ANY contact, you were with bad teacher or you wernt in it long enough. I have some beginner students (less than a 6 solid months) who cant fight and dont know applications yet, but to say aikido karate and bagau dont practice contact or just soft contact ubsurd

I never stated that aikido and ba gua don't have sparring. All I said was the classes I were in didn't have any. The argument that one wasn't studying long enough to be sparring is old. How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?

[Dragonzbane76]

you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.

i said not VERY functional. meaning it doesn't work that great in resistant environment. to many veriables left open.... the other guy can move, has a free hand, etc. All good for show when doing demo's.

Anyways trapping to me is a waste of time... i want control in a fight i go for clinch and take down.... I have full control then. Not half "functional" control. Just how i fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This.

It shattered the following illusions that were (are) commonly held my TMA'ists:

- There are secret techniques you can do to stop much larger opponents (how many ads for these secret systems did you see in the backs of MA mags in the 80s and 90s?)

- Forms give you a large arsenal of effective fighting techniques

- You can practice alone and then be adequately prepared to fight a resisting opponent

- 10-hit combos are an effective defense against a punch (because attackers leave their arms out there after throwing said punch)

- Size doesn't matter

- Strength doesn't matter

- Don't worry about grapplers, you can stop a takedown with a knee to the face

- Your out of shape instructor is "too deadly" to spar with you

There are a lot more, but that's a good list.

Before MMA, I lived in this delusional world created by martial arts myths that I learned in Karate class as a kid. One myth was that I was actually able to competently defend myself because I had karate training.

After 10 minutes in an MMA class, my entire reality had changed. Years of myths and BS and "MA social conditioning" were wiped away. It was a little depressing; all I wanted from MA was to be an effective fighter, and I had been doing everything wrong. For years:

Studying forms for secret techniques? Worthless for actual fighting.

Size and strength? Phenomenally important (unless the other person is a COMPLETE noob)

Your out of shape instructor? Never been in a fight a day in his life.

10-hit combos? Worthless. Real opponents that are actually trying to hit you don't leave their arms out there waiting for you.

Grapplers will gladly eat your knee to the face (with which you will probably miss, anyway) to take you down and dominate you within 10 seconds, especially if you don't know what you're doing on the ground).

If you've never trained against a resisting opponent then it doesn't matter even if you've trained hours a day for years; you will lose to a boxer with 1 month of training.

I wish I could say it did all that, but as we know, too many of these points are still being advocated and believed.

[MightyB]

I never stated that aikido and ba gua don't have sparring. All I said was the classes I were in didn't have any. The argument that one wasn't studying long enough to be sparring is old. How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?

I watched two wrestlers working out with the lead instructor at the BJJ / MMA gym where I go.

They wanted to add some striking to their arsenal because they are both getting ready to fight in a MMA event that's coming up and our place has become the "go to" place for this area of Michigan.

They started doing basic straight right and lefts in motion, stationary, side to side, etc. They then did this thai or boxing slip with the elbows thing that I've never seen before. They drilled that in motion too. After about 15 minutes of this. He had them face off and one was a striker and one was doing the slip to get outside then move in thing. It was controlled at first. Then he had them add speed and broken rhythm. It was unchoreographed but far from being a sparring session... As I observed this process which took a grand total of 30 minutes. I saw something kind've scary. I realized that these guys - yes they're a bit awkward now - but in about 3 to 6 weeks of this type of training - they'd be at or above the level of some TCMA guys that have practiced for 3 years or more.

I didn't stay to watch the whole session.

[IronFist]

I wish I could say it did all that, but as we know, too many of these points are still being advocated and believed.

Only by other brainwashy TMA schools.

I guess you could say that MMA has done that for the people who have experienced it, and is beginning to do it as a whole. Obviously there will always be TMA schools because TMA is cool, but there will also probably always be TMA schools where they teach students 10 hit combos and that weight lifting is bad and makes you slow and you can just qiblast your opponents or iron palm them in the head if they're grappling with you.

[David Jamieson]

Unless they are sparring/fighting full contact in a weapons-based environment, they are wasting their time.

nobody does this, not even you guys. you pad up, which lends a false sense of security.

I see it in places where there is a lot of hungry, but I'd wager you and your pals never ever go full contact with sharps and I'd also say you wear plenty of gear for blunts.

yes, I've seen the vids from S.A and Guinea where the kids knife fight and so on, but that is not even close to within the paradigm of western martial artists at all outside of military guys who are in the stink already.

[IronFist]

While we're on the subject...

Why does every conversation of "MMA is more applicable to real fighting than TMA" invariably turn into butthurt TMA guys crying "oh yeah, well unless you include eye gouges and groin biting and knives and guns then MMA isn't very 'realistic', either!!!!1!11!one!1!!"

I've noticed that on many forums. Why does that happen?

[MasterKiller]

I've noticed that on many forums. Why does that happen? Because you're g@y.

[Knifefighter]

nobody does this, not even you guys. you pad up, which lends a false sense of security.

I see it in places where there is a lot of hungry, but I'd wager you and your pals never ever go full contact with sharps and I'd also say you wear plenty of gear for blunts.

yes, I've seen the vids from S.A and Guinea where the kids knife fight and so on, but that is not even close to within the paradigm of western martial artists at all outside of military guys who are in the stink already.

Most times you gear up (although sometimes you go no gear with sticks and not fully sharpened blades).

The principle is the same as Judo, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai and all the other functional arts... training full-contact in the atmosphere that keeps injuries to a minimum is superior to training with "deadly" techniques that don't allow for full contact.

Over the years, I've seen it demonstrated again and again. The guy who trains weapons full contact with gear, easily beats the guy who trains weapons with no-gear, but no full-contact.

As far as the false sense of security, not really. What it does do is give you the ability to hit very, very hard with a weapon. Watch some of the dog bros clips and you will see numerous examples of guys getting ko'ed and/or having their heads spilt right through the gear.

[IronWeasel]

And neither does traditional training. The difference is with traditional training you fantasize that you will somehow be able to pull those things off.


Yes...

I often sit and fantasize about elbowing an opponent...

But I know that I could never pull it off.:(

[EarthDragon]

All I said was the classes I were in didn't have any.

that why I said perhaps you had a bad teacher.

How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?

ummm I woul say few months but what are you in bagua for? to learn the art or to hit people.?
MMA is a sport, bagua is an art, so depends on what your aim is I guess. I have a few students, that arent intetesed in fighting at all, one student enrolled in my class to become more flexible and improve his balance and agility, but I dont think they are wasting thier time learning kung fu, however if a person wants some dicipline and culture perhaps MMA is not the avenue for that at well, so again it depends on what your aim or goal is.

iron fist,


Why does every conversation of "MMA is more applicable to real fighting than TMA" invariably turn into butthurt TMA guys crying "oh yeah, well unless you include eye gouges and groin biting and knives and guns then MMA isn't very 'realistic', either!!!!1!11!one!1!!"

depends on who you talk to but I would say that when you have a SPORT and rules this takes some of the real combat out of the equation and certain tech cant be done. expect for the knives and guns part.
I liked it when tyson bit his oppents ear, i thoguth cool real fighting, but in the SPORT of boxing it was frowned upon, to me TMA allows you to bit, scratch, pull, tear, gouge and spit.in this sense TMA is more realistic than MMA with rules and regulations and weigh classes.

[David Jamieson]

Most times you gear up (although sometimes you go no gear with sticks and not fully sharpened blades).

The principle is the same as Judo, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai and all the other functional arts... training full-contact in the atmosphere that keeps injuries to a minimum is superior to training with "deadly" techniques that don't allow for full contact.

Over the years, I've seen it demonstrated again and again. The guy who trains weapons full contact with gear, easily beats the guy who trains weapons with no-gear, but no full-contact.

Surely you must understand that there is ferocity required to cut and stab someone with any efficacy at all. There's no playtime, no sparring, just get in and get it in, period.

sparring castrates that when you gear up and make it safe.

There are simply some things you cannot "train".

when it comes to these things, you either have it in you or you don't period. You can't train a guppy to be lion.

people are either capable of doing this or not, training in my opinion should mostly consist of weapon retention, and understanding where to strike from a physiological sense. "what works" is known when it comes to weapons.

[Knifefighter]

Surely you must understand that there is ferocity required to cut and stab someone with any efficacy at all. There's no playtime, no sparring, just get in and get it in, period.

sparring castrates that when you gear up and make it safe.

There are simply some things you cannot "train".

when it comes to these things, you either have it in you or you don't period. You can't train a guppy to be lion.

people are either capable of doing this or not, training in my opinion should mostly consist of weapon retention, and understanding where to strike from a physiological sense. "what works" is known when it comes to weapons.

Weapons are no different than any other kind of training.

Skill, strategy, and tactics can be developed. And just like with any other type of training the closer you get to reality (and reality is always about hard contact), the more effective you will be.

Understanding "where to strike" with weapons is simply an extrapolation of the same old theoretical of the TMA "deadly strike" nonsense.

[Knifefighter]

Yes...

I often sit and fantasize about elbowing an opponent...

But I know that I could never pull it off.:(

Do you elbow you opponents in training... if not, you probably will have a hard time puling it off.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

dragon,

trapping allows you to control your opponet.

you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.

(tui sao) sticky hands is version of trapping

ironeagle,


please understand, forms are meant for many reasons other than just fighting, people practice weapons but dont intend on cutting off someones head if they get into a scwabble. so is thier practice usless? or does it benefit them in thier own way????

I understand that, but let's be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.

[Violent Designs]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

This.

And then I found Buk Sing. :p

[SavvySavage]

I understand that, but let's be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.

I agree 100%.

[David Jamieson]

Weapons are no different than any other kind of training. I disagree. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion. Weapons training is dictated by the weapon and it's optimal use as such.


Skill, strategy, and tactics can be developed. And just like with any other type of training the closer you get to reality (and reality is always about hard contact), the more effective you will be. I disagree. You seem to think banging is the answer to everything. Maybe you should try something like fencing with sabre and get a handle on subtleties. lol


Understanding "where to strike" with weapons is simply an extrapolation of the same old theoretical of the TMA "deadly strike" nonsense.

Again, here you are completely wrong. You wanna cut someone or you wanna stop someone dead in their tracks because where you hit them with the sharp, blunt, or projectile makes all the difference in the world.

You are always seeking a way to snipe on tma.

in my books, that makes your viewpoint myopic and overly opinionated and therefore virtually useless.

I am open to stealing from wherever I can. :)

[Violent Designs]

MMA guys tend to think I'm too strict, traditional, backward, whatever...

CMA guys think I'm somehow betraying some sacred tenet of CMAs.

Kinda annoying actually to be caught in the middle of the road.

[Knifefighter]

I disagree. You seem to think banging is the answer to everything. Maybe you should try something like fencing with sabre and get a handle on subtleties. lol

I fenced for a couple of years. In fencing, you are basically going full contact.

Skill + full contact = applicability.



Again, here you are completely wrong. You wanna cut someone or you wanna stop someone dead in their tracks because where you hit them with the sharp, blunt, or projectile makes all the difference in the world.l

And like the theoretical "deadly" techniques, you can't always pick where you are going to cut someone. And, even when you can, it often doesn't stop them in their tracks.

If you are going to stop someone in their tracks the best way to increase the probability of being able to do this is to have experience in hitting someone as hard as you can while both you and your opponent are moving and he is also trying to hit you as hard as you can.

The person who is completely wrong would be the guy who thinks he can hit hard, but never practices doing that against an actual moving opponent who is hitting him.


You are always seeking a way to snipe on tma.

in my books, that makes your viewpoint myopic and overly opinionated and therefore virtually useless.

I am sniping on unrealistic training techniques. Doesn't matter where they come from. BJJ has standing "self-defense" techniques that are just as ludicrous. Judo has dumb@ss kata forms. Lots of dog bros guys are still in the magical "hubud" training mindset. They are all equally unrealistic.

[David Jamieson]

This is only a place of discussion...and argument.

But in your training hall, it's your training hall.

If you are serious in your approach and know your stuff, you're golden.

anyone harping about it can take a walk would be my perspective. :)

[David Jamieson]

I fenced for a couple of years. In fencing, you are basically going full contact.

Skill + full contact = applicability. I fence as well, not as much as I would like, but it is still not totally realistic. It does teach you how to move with a blade (variety of shapes) when you train beyond and off the piste. Free style fencing sessions still have you in a mask, jacket with tipped swords. Pretty safe.





And like the theoretical "deadly" techniques, you can't always pick where you are going to cut someone. And, even when you can, it often doesn't stop them in their tracks. No you can't choose, but you don't waste effort where you don't have to and you don't poke where there isn't a leak. There is more efficacy in thrusting into the sternum, cutting across the soft belt, reaching and stepping round to the kidneys and also not forgetting to strike at the closest target to you. Often, striking at the wrists and jointed areas with a slashing weapon or thrusting to the soft and organ areas with a thrusting weapon have little to do with the theory as they do with desirable targets and you can train to hit targets.




I am sniping on unrealistic training techniques. Doesn't matter where they come from. BJJ has standing "self-defense" techniques that are just as ludicrous.

Actually, you snipe in a blanket method and make preposterous assumptions that you then throw onto all martial arts that are in the realm of traditional. I agree, crappy training methods are crappy training methods, but knowledge and the application of it is only that. No blame to cast.

[Knifefighter]

No you can't choose, but you don't waste effort where you don't have to and you don't poke where there isn't a leak. There is more efficacy in thrusting into the sternum, cutting across the soft belt, reaching and stepping round to the kidneys and also not forgetting to strike at the closest target to you. Often, striking at the wrists and jointed areas with a slashing weapon or thrusting to the soft and organ areas with a thrusting weapon have little to do with the theory as they do with desirable targets and you can train to hit targets..

And the person who trains to hit those targets in a full contact setting will be better at hitting those targets than someone who doesn't.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys I've noticed that if you train 8 hours a day instead of 4 hours a week you get a lot better at MA!!!

Hey I've noticed if you have your bollocks surgically removed you have fewer weakpoints!!

Hey, if you take shots of adrenaline you can become super strong and violent!

Hey, if you go outside and randomly mug people you will get better at actually hurting real people! Physically and mentally.


My point is there are many ways to improve your ability to fight, but everyone has their limits. Training by going into full contact no rules fights is not training at all, it is actual fighting. ITs good if you want to be a good fighter but bad if you just want MA to avoid getting hurt. And pointless if you do MA for other reasons (spiritual/health/sport).

NO one will argue that to train by actually applying techniques under pressure is the best method, and often MMA does this better. The techniques are of no consiquence, its the training method. SO kung fu can do this too, and some do. But everyone has their limits, and even though MMA may be tame to some of you (sanjuro, you and your VT fights!) it is beyond some peoples comfort zone. Let those people train as they will, they still benefit.

Everyone has different goals. Everyone has limits. The whole MMA Vs Kung fu argument is ridiculous..... The technique of all is good. If you want to be a good fighter, you need to fight. there is no other method. The more you do it, the better. YOu train MMA twice a week and think kung fu guys are weak? what about the guys who train everyday, they think you are weak, but do you have time to be like them? what about the guys who get into real fights everyday? they are better than you too. What about people who have actually killed others? they are stronger than you too, but do you want to be like them? Each to his own. Its a stupid argument. There are too many variables.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But everyone has their limits, and even though MMA may be tame to some of you (sanjuro, you and your VT fights!) it is beyond some peoples comfort zone.
Hey, it was a stupid thing to do that I did because I wanted to test my skills, why?
I'll tell you why:
Because, like so many I had been told that rules hinder the real deadly moves, that sport fighting makes one have all sorts of bad habits.
Thing was, I had been bouncing for a while and even serve din the military and what I saw was that the very some "sport stuff" the worked in the ring, worked on the street and that the other stuff, when tried by other guys, didn't work.
Well, I still didn't know for sure, was it perhaps that I just had not met the "real" street fighter that could rip out my eyes and throat the kick my nuts out through my ears ??
Well, in Vale tudo, I had the chance to test what I knew VS TRAINED fighters that, if they wanted, could do just that.
I fought in a few closed doo "dojo" fights and a few matches in Quebec and even one in a certain motorcycle clubs "fight club".
What did I learn?
What I had always known:
The very same qualities that make for success in one ring, make it in EVERY ring.

[IronFist]

I understand that, but let's be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.

Exactly. Well said.

[dimethylsea]

It's weird that a guy with the moniker "knifefighter" has such a "blunt-work" oriented position on the whole "how to fight with weapons" question.

I agree that full-on training with blunts is MARVELOUS.. but it's not the be-all and end all.

My personal view is that a nice blend of
1. "magic hubud"/tapping/back-and-forth for flow and reactivity,
2. blunt-sparring (to the maximal degree your situation/health can tolerate) to build reflexes, pain avoidance, fighting spirit, etc,
AND
3. target hitting and test-cutting (to REALLY figure out what you can do with a sharp thingie) are all good stuff.

It's worth noting that FMA didn't need much in the way of "test cutting" when people worked on farms clearing brush with their bolos and actually USING the sharps daily.

I am NOT impressed by people who think the gold path to FMA skill is free-on sparring. You need way more than a scrum to get good.

[Knifefighter]

1. "magic hubud"/tapping/back-and-forth for flow and reactivity,
The best method for flow and reactivity is to do the same types of movements you will do for real. You rarely see any kind of hubud type movements when going full out. What you do see is clinch work.



target hitting and test-cutting (to REALLY figure out what you can do with a sharp thingie) are all good stuff.
How many times have you practiced stabbing something that resembles the body with various types of clothing on it and then measured the penetration? If you haven't, you probably don't have the best idea of what you can realistically do. You'd be surprised at how knife blades can get caught up in clothing, especially when you are trying to do the old fantasy cut and slice.


I am NOT impressed by people who think the gold path to FMA skill is free-on sparring. You need way more than a scrum to get good.

It's not the gold path, but it sure is a large part of it.

[Knifefighter]

It's worth noting that FMA didn't need much in the way of "test cutting" when people worked on farms clearing brush with their bolos and actually USING the sharps daily.

BTW, speaking of test cutting, just because someone is a FMA "master" doesn't mean he isn't delusional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlybPPTAvx4&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

BTW, speaking of test cutting, just because someone is a FMA "master" doesn't mean he isn't delusional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlybPPTAvx4&feature=related

He tried to do that trick that so many sword guys do that is to strike with a curved blade, which TENDS to only cut on the pull, and it backfired on his ass.
LOL !

[Syn7]

Sure it does, I've fought MMA/VT in which the ONLY rule was Obey the ref, when he says stop, you stop.
I've also fought were there were no rules and had guys try to bite, eye gouge, kick and even bite the groin, LOL !
And what works in MMA NOW, was what worked then VS those types.
And I am NOT alone in that observation.

Sure MMA has more rules NOW, but just walk into ANY MMA gym or BJJ school and drop a challenge for no rules and you will find a willing partner for your experiments.
\

word... as far as empty hand one on one combat, these hybrids created for mma are taking the lead... basics and a serious work ethic gets you pretty far...

you have guys who can stand with you and dance outside then come in swinging, you react and they change levels on you so fast you dont even know youre going down untill youre down there... and then what...

and standup in mma is evolved to a point where it guards those levels and that fact changes when and how you can commit... if you dont get that, you go down... not to mention the standup of some mma cats is wold class in its own right alot of the time...

i love tcma, dont get me wrong, but it is not the end all complete answer for any one on one empty hand combative situation... some people believe it is and are too offended when others disagree...

its all good, we can talk about this right???

[sanjuro_ronin]

If someone comes along and points out a better way of doing something and proves it, why would ANYONE be offended by it or not use it?

[Knifefighter]

If someone comes along and points out a better way of doing something and proves it, why would ANYONE be offended by it or not use it?

Because it threatens their belief system. No different than the BJJ guys who think that striking and takedowns are over-rated.

[bawang]

kung fu can exist because north americans live in state of perpetual childhood. when they refer to kung fu is "playing the form" "kung fu player".
kung fu people come to play like children. thats why they will never want to fight EVER. fighting drives fear into hearts of people like them.
passive aggresive north americans with revenge fantasies are asking to be taken advantage of.

[lkfmdc]

Because it threatens their belief system. No different than the BJJ guys who think that striking and takedowns are over-rated.

as a general rule, people have trouble wrapping their minds around the many possible things that can happen in a fight/MMA

people always want the "magic bullet" - they ask "are punches better than kicks" or "is grappling better than striking"

I guess it might be a defense mechanism, avoiding the reality that to "fight" you have so much to learn and must use your brains and strategy...

[Lucas]

what did mma do to kungfu?

it held kungfu down and gave the love by force, then it told kungfu it had a pretty mouth.

but kungfu does have a pretty mouth, and also a lot of love to share.

[EarthDragon]

iron eagle,

If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.

agreed, however this thread as well as alot of people on here, sound they joined a TCMA school and got taken advantage of, or been lied to.
Thats too bad but to make sweeping genralizations is just plain silly.

like the kids who ask who will win a fight a boxer or a wreslter.. these are really stupid questions.


and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing.


however I gotta disagree here though because learning a form and pratcing its actual applications as well as improving your endurance, speed, agility, timing, hand eye cordination, balance and foundation ARE beneficial for martial and fighting skill.

[SoCo KungFu]

sorry, but that is asinine.
Learn the move, practice it with graduating levels of resistance, THEN, learn the form. What you said is a competely backwards method of teaching Gung-Fu.

Be as it may, what he said is exactly what 99% of kung fu schools do

[Knifefighter]

however I gotta disagree here though because learning a form and pratcing its actual applications as well as improving your endurance, speed, agility, timing, hand eye cordination, balance and foundation ARE beneficial for martial and fighting skill.

No they aren't. And this is a perfect demonstration of how TMA's are still ripping people off.

[David Jamieson]

No they aren't. And this is a perfect demonstration of how TMA's are still ripping people off.

really.

how do you do drills? how do you show structure? how do you teach body balance as applicable to martial arts?

I think you got your blinders on again.

forms are part of training in chinese martial arts, whether you like it or not and regardless of your opinion.

they are not the be all and end all, but they don't lack value overall.

besides, they look cooler than ground hugs for 15 minutes before choking someone out. :p

[bawang]

a lot chinese kung fu people arent willing to accept mma because they think its a race thing. i dont get why the white ppls are clinging to kung fu i dont see any reason

[EarthDragon]

soco,

Be as it may, what he said is exactly what 99% of kung fu schools do

come one really dude? you have visited 99% of the kung fu schools in north America? or just the world... sometimes its better to stick to the facts when you say things, its makes for a better discussion.

David J, when ignorant people like this guy say absolutly ubsurd things like this.......

No they aren't. And this is a perfect demonstration of how TMA's are still ripping people off.
to my repsonse to iron eagle was
however I gotta disagree here though because learning a form and pratcing its actual applications as well as improving your endurance, speed, agility, timing, hand eye cordination, balance and foundation ARE beneficial for martial and fighting skill.
why do you even bother to reply? its like arguing with a 2 year old, hit the ignore button, is he really worth even responding too?
If ANYONE out here doesnt think that training, endurance, speed, agility, timing, hand eye cordination, balance and foundation ARE beneficial for martial and fighting skill, they need to take up cooking lessons and get the Fukc off this board.

[David Jamieson]

a lot chinese kung fu people arent willing to accept mma because they think its a race thing. i dont get why the white ppls are clinging to kung fu i dont see any reason

people of any race who don't "do" should reserve comment.

all the kungfu guys i know for real accept mma for what it is and have even adopted some of the methods that are in the training regimens of mixed martial artists that they didn't have in their chosen martial art.

hey, if it wasn't for tma, there would be NO mma.

it's a constant journey and the journey is change.

being stuck in your ways is the worst enemy to any martial artist.

[bawang]

i disagree wit u man. this talk of constant change is bs. ur biased from schitzophrenic north american culture. punching a man in the face is punching a man in the face.

[SoCo KungFu]

This.

It shattered the following illusions that were (are) commonly held my TMA'ists:

- There are secret techniques you can do to stop much larger opponents (how many ads for these secret systems did you see in the backs of MA mags in the 80s and 90s?)

- Forms give you a large arsenal of effective fighting techniques

- You can practice alone and then be adequately prepared to fight a resisting opponent

- 10-hit combos are an effective defense against a punch (because attackers leave their arms out there after throwing said punch)

- Size doesn't matter

- Strength doesn't matter

- Don't worry about grapplers, you can stop a takedown with a knee to the face

- Your out of shape instructor is "too deadly" to spar with you

There are a lot more, but that's a good list.


There are still a LOT of people that cling to these though. Like, A LOT.....


Before MMA, I lived in this delusional world created by martial arts myths that I learned in Karate class as a kid. One myth was that I was actually able to competently defend myself because I had karate training.

After 10 minutes in an MMA class, my entire reality had changed. Years of myths and BS and "MA social conditioning" were wiped away. It was a little depressing; all I wanted from MA was to be an effective fighter, and I had been doing everything wrong.

I actually found that same moment rather refreshing. Like when you wake up and your eyes are all foggy so you throw cold water on your face and go look outside and everything is superawesome


For years:

Studying forms for secret techniques? Worthless for actual fighting.

Size and strength? Phenomenally important (unless the other person is a COMPLETE noob)

Your out of shape instructor? Never been in a fight a day in his life.

10-hit combos? Worthless. Real opponents that are actually trying to hit you don't leave their arms out there waiting for you.

Grapplers will gladly eat your knee to the face (with which you will probably miss, anyway) to take you down and dominate you within 10 seconds, especially if you don't know what you're doing on the ground).

If you've never trained against a resisting opponent then it doesn't matter even if you've trained hours a day for years; you will lose to a boxer with 1 month of training.

And yet those former kung fu brothers still try to tell us we were missing something or didn't understand, all the while they keep drinking the kool aid...

[Syn7]

as far as one on one empty hand, why not just learn all the ranges of fighting and try it out for yourself to see how well it works... try it against different styles... go roll with a bjj cat, go have a kickboxing match with a kickboxer, go try and take down a judoka, box a boxer, maybe find some well rounded opponents who do well in mma and try against them... whoever you find, try to get people who are as different from you as possible, like if youre a bak mei guy, dont go against lung ying guys and think you are crosstraining... in the end if it works it works if it doesnt it doesnt... only one way to find out tho...

also if you still dont wanna go contact atleast do padwork... good pad work... not just kicking bob or trapping a wooden dummy... i mean intricate moving targets of varying size and whatnot... muaythai style...


i'd also like to add that you cant rely on tricks that only work once... ok they are cool to have and will work sometimes but this cannot be your bread and butter...

[bawang]

also it has to do with emasculation of chinese culture combined with materilism nihilism and hedonism.

the feminine and h0m0sexual wing chun being the most popular stlye of kung fu in the entire world says it all

[Syn7]

also it has to do with emasculation of chinese culture combined with materilism nihilism and hedonism.

the feminine and h0m0sexual wing chun being the most popular stlye of kung fu in the entire world says it all

so you dont like wing chun then???

:eek:


wing chun secret techniques can stop any style... its all in the secret footwork... im tellin ya...

[IronFist]

There's also the "fantasy" that so many people cling onto.

Deep down inside, a lot of TMA guys want to believe that they're learning a mystical ninja art. That they are privy to the ancient secrets that will defeat all the weightlifting boxers and kickboxers and strongmen (and today you can add to that list MMA guys, too) out there.

They are learning the secrets, and it feels good to be part of that secret club.

They buy into the BS that with their secret, ancient, exclusive training, they will be able to defeat any bad guy, even if he is bigger and stronger and tougher and a boxer and wrestler and kicked sand in your face and stole your girlfriend. He doesn't even realize the ancient power that he is about to be messing with when he fights you, for you a master of all aspects of "real" and "ancient" TMA knowledge. You don't go to a McDojo, you are a closed-door disciple learning only the most exclusive and secret of ancient techniques passed down from master to chosen student:

Iron body that makes you able to withstand hits. It can only be done with secret exercises and breath control and qi manipulation. You are learning this and no one else is. You are elite.

Ancient strength sets used by the old masters to develop superhuman strength. Weight lifting, protein shakes, creatine, that stuff is all new agey hokum. Even tho you're not getting big or testing your strength with weights so you have no way to know if you're actually getting stronger or not, your dynamic tension strength set is bestowing upon you insane strength gains. And every week you add another rep. Soon you will be invincible. And it feels so good to have this knowledge that no one else has. If only the elite-level athletes of the world knew the secrets that you knew...

You punch a wall bag filled with steel shot 500 times a day. Without pain. Your fists are like iron. You can easily crack a skull. All those poser boxers are hitting soft heavy bags wearing boxing gloves. Wusses! You possess real destructive power in your fists. Never mind that you've never actually trained against a moving opponent that didn't just sit there like your wall bag does. You know in your heart that you are so deadly, you could crack a skull with one punch with minimal effort. You walk around all day supremely confident in this knowledge. You can break the bottom brick. You can rupture organs without leaving a mark on the body. Someone would have to be completely insane to get into a fight with you!

You know a few dozen multi-hit combo techniques. You can impress the hell out of your friends. "Dude, throw a punch at me... no, not like that... use your other arm... and keep your other arm there when you do it... yeah like that... throw that punch at me... oh but do it slowly so I don't accidentally hurt you..." BAM! Bong sao, lop da, knee kick, twisting double palm strike! Your friends cry out "Whoa!!! Dude that was awesome! You're like Bruce Lee!! Do it again!" Your ego is huge.

Your ego is huge. That is why TMA "myths" are still around, and will always be around.




F.uck all of that.




You want secret conditioning? Grapple and take punches.

You want massive strength? Get your ass in the gym and lift weights.

You want a useful punch? Train against resisting opponents, heavy bags, and double end bags.

You want secret techniques that work? Learn Muay Thai and BJJ.


Forms are BS.
Secret ninja body conditioning is BS.
"Strength sets" are BS.
Cool-looking combos are BS.

edit - I'm talking about in the development of martial skill. Look, if you just want to get in shape, forms can be useful. If you need to improve circulation or whatever, qigong and taiji might help. But when instructors delude students into believe they are learning how to fight through things like forms and secret grandmaster ancient "conditioning" methods and walking in circles and 10-hit combos on outstretched arms, that is doing a phenomenal disservice to both the student, and to the MA community as a whole.

edit 2 - I'm qualified to talk on this because I wasted much of my youth on BS conditioning systems and ancient strength sets and learning the secret techniques to make me an invincible kung fu fighter. And thinking weight lifting was inefficient and this and that and all those other BS myths. And then one day I went to a gym and realized that despite training harder than anyone else for the last year in ancient strength sets I was incredibly weak, and since I wanted to get strong, I had to lift weights. And after getting my stuff completely ROCKED in an MMA class against someone who had been training for only a month I decided that maybe my secret ninja techniques weren't as awesome as I thought they were.

So I'm not a hypocrite. At one point I was a HUGE supporter of "traditional" (BS) training and spent countless hours tracking down copies of old training books with the "secret and lost methods" because I wanted to be a superior kung fu fighter. Holy crap, was all of that ever a huge waste of time. Don't get me wrong, I was super dedicated. But if any of that crap actually worked I would've been a world champion fighter by now. lol. It sucks, though, to literally spend hours a day for years doing things that you think are going to benefit you greatly only to find out that they were worthless. I had the biggest freaking ego, too; it's a good thing I never got into a "real" fight or I would've been destroyed both physically and mentally.

[MightyB]

agreed, however this thread as well as alot of people on here, sound they joined a TCMA school and got taken advantage of, or been lied to.
Thats too bad but to make sweeping genralizations is just plain silly.


This argument is becoming my biggest pet peeve on the KFM. Why is it that every time someone questions dogma - someone always tries the pithy "Your teacher must not have known real kung fu" excuse?

My kung fu Sifu is phenomenal - he's flat out one of the best 7* guys alive. His father was THE MAN.

That being said. For whatever reason, his phenomenal skill isn't translating to me being phenomenal. I have to find my own way... and maybe it's cultural, maybe it's the result of my culture being thousands of years old too, but it's fighting styles were based on wrestling and boxing. Maybe it's in my cultural DNA to be able to pick up that style of fighting more easily.

Or, maybe we could say that TCMA had rules too. And it's rules don't coincide with the rules that we're using now. Maybe it has to adapt.

Or, maybe some of us joined Martial Arts because we like a real martial workout... but that's not in today's TCMA. It's not - because you want to tell me about culture and mysteries and etiquette and blah blah blah blah blah... and I want real skill. Since I'm in the minority, I can't find enough TCMAers to train live with and against. And lo and behold - martial arts needs two people participating to be MARTIAL ARTS. If I don't have a variety of real martial training partners - then I can't develop real skill.

Guess what you have in Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Wrestling, Thai, BJJ etc? Training partners. They've left their egos at the door and are willing to put it on the line on the mat with you. Guess what happens? You both grow because of it. You grow because it's Live - it's techniques in action - it's resisting. It's more real.

[-N-]

They started doing basic straight right and lefts in motion, stationary, side to side, etc. They then did this thai or boxing slip with the elbows thing that I've never seen before. They drilled that in motion too. After about 15 minutes of this. He had them face off and one was a striker and one was doing the slip to get outside then move in thing. It was controlled at first. Then he had them add speed and broken rhythm. It was unchoreographed but far from being a sparring session...

Some kung fu schools train that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oH3IRqC7QQ

Video from the day after they were given that drill.

[EarthDragon]

started a thread to discuss why is this posted on the MMA board

[David Jamieson]

Some kung fu schools train that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oH3IRqC7QQ

Video from the day after they were given that drill.

when i first started into kung fu, bag work was pretty regular, and I lived with my si hing, so we banged quite often. when the school finally opened, it had to appeal to a wider range of people, it's that simple.

most smart mma gyms have a cardio class and plenty of people who are not in the stable of fighters and for sure, the greater majority of the schools are used for simple fitness and of course, to get the t-shirt :p

And the sun is always in the middle of the sky, somewhere on the earth. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Some kung fu schools train that way.

Here are more clips about that kind of training method.

http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_5.wmv

[EarthDragon]

thanks YKW, why would you post these clips???? this is not the way kung fu schools train? (insert sarcastic voice)wheres th chi blasts and the silk pj's this must not be kung fu..


Shui Jiao = kung fu this thread should read how has kung fu given birth to MMA

[-N-]

when i first started into kung fu, bag work was pretty regular, and I lived with my si hing, so we banged quite often. when the school finally opened, it had to appeal to a wider range of people, it's that simple.


Yep. Most people don't like the other kind of training. Students quit after 1 class.


Here are no clips about that kind of training method.

http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_5.wmv

Need more schools like that.

[Knifefighter]

hey, if it wasn't for tma, there would be NO mma..

Yeah, that's true... there wouldn't have been that many guys for the grapplers to beat up and nobody for the MT, boxers and kickboxers to beat up.

[Jorge]

Yeah, that's true... there wouldn't have been that many guys for the grapplers to beat up and nobody for the MT, boxers and kickboxers to beat up.

Now thats funny!LOLOLOL

[EarthDragon]

God knifefighter you are bitter little man but you still love me dont you? kisses

[Dragonzbane76]

taking the metaphorical "hammer" to him aren't you knifefighter. haha :)

[David Jamieson]

I met angelo dundee while working on a movie a few years back.
He trained Muhammad Ali. He was a little round guy. BUt a great trainer, obviously.

People can have all the bravado and spunk they like. they're also entitled to say what they like and even believe what they like (even when they don't really believe it, but feel they have to lol).

What I know for sure is that I find practicing Kung Fu to be deeply satisfying to myself and I am happy I've managed to integrate the practice and all that is in it.
I had my stage where I could actively fight and recover well. I'm glad I have an art form that doesn't dead end there and goes beyond to integrate a new path. It's interesting and never ending it seems.

All along the way you'll encounter people and all of them are different. Some think they know the way, others think you know the way, and so on. Ultimately it can only come down to what it is that you enjoy in your framework of life that you build for yourself.

I like that Shaolin Kung Fu is a system and a practice that can be integrated into your whole life or only a little if you like. I'm sure that there are other full life long practices that are similar in other arts that follow a similar path.

Why do so many asian martial arts follow a structured path of martiality, medicine and meditation?

New martial arts and combat sports aren't really as mixed as people would like to think they are. Most decent kung fu students will elarn a thing or two about taking care of someone who is injured in a very for real sense. some go on to learn loads about medicine and healing arts, others also practice more esoteric arts related to mental cultivation and so on.

where is this in mma practitioners or in the sport? It is only there if that is what is brought into it.

for many it ends at merely fighting, and that's a lot of fun and you learn a lot from it, but you cannot physically fight for your whole life nor can you do it at a competitive level for a very long time. Any career you think you might have will be short, barring outliers, but 10 or so years down the road and you're done.

If you are not iceman or couture quality vegas style fighters, then forget it. You other 600,000 guys out there busting it up, will wind up with nothing more than memories of days that used to be.

Kung fu guys will be doing qigong, drinking tea and reading mma rants on forums. lol

[EarthDragon]

excellent post David J. well said

[Knifefighter]

excellent post David J. well said

And completely false. Of course clueless guys like you who know nothing of MMA sport training have no idea that it is not true.

[taai gihk yahn]

The new location is AMAZING! But..we haven't opened yet. We had a major plumbing glitch withthe town of Huntington,which after many weeks, and mucho denaro, we have fixed, and are awaiting our final inspection for our CO.
We have a stack of people who have come in waiting to sign up. You should stop by and see this place-nothing like this has ever been done- a large scale, traditional Mo-Kwoon, in an upscale shopping center.
let me affirm Rik's comments - I unexpectedly had some free time this afternoon, so I stopped in to see his new diggs; in a word, outstanding! TT has put together a space that, IMPO, combines the best of old and new; and talk about location, LOCATION, LOCATION - indeed, he will have to try very hard and use ALL of his grumpy old sifu schtick to alienate people and drive them away! and I am happy because now I can refer people to him without worrying that they need to drive through several gang territories in order to get to the school...

[TenTigers]

and I am happy because now I can refer people to him without worrying that they need to drive through several gang territories in order to get to the school...
Yeah, that old school was right in the center hub, between the MS-13, and the Bloods and Crips. There is still a bullethole in the window.
I would hear gunshots and think,"Boy, it's a little early for Chinese New Year..."
It started to strike a bit too close to home when they started running stories on 1010wins and eyewitness news, rather than the local papers, and closing down schools in the projects. The guy who was shot in the last drive-by was one of my student's cousin.
My enrollment started a quick decline-I got out of there just in time.
Instead of bodegas, gangs and-crack hoes, I am now in the land of Starbucks, Little League and MILFS!

[-N-]

Instead of bodegas, gangs and-crack hoes, I am now in the land of Starbucks, Little League and MILFS!

Nicer environment, but harder to find students that have the fire to become really good fighters. Inner city ghetto has an edge on that.

[David Jamieson]

Nicer environment, but harder to find students that have the fire to become really good fighters. Inner city ghetto has an edge on that.

wow, you watch a lot of tv. everything is everything man and everyone is everywhere. :)

[David Jamieson]

LOL... another clueless statement about "sport" training. There are thousands of guys doing sport training who don't suddenly quit.

There are just as many, if not more, old "sport" guys still out their doing their old guy sport training as there are kung fu guys doing their old guy version of kung fu.

lol, like who? You? Are you saying that you train in teh same way a competitive fighter trains? Or some other imaginary "thousands" of other guys.

take a look aroud the gyms in your neighbourhood. Who's in there?

I think you throw around "clueless" so much it gets all over you. :p

[PalmStriker]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

Yes, you are right to a great extent, and as annoying as I can be when it comes to "developing that which I have a use for and shelving the rest", I feel like this forum is a safe-haven for "prodigal sons" like myself.

[David Jamieson]

Do I train in the same way as a competitive fighter? Yes.

Who is in the gyms? Everyone from competitive MMA fighters, to competitive BJJ and sub grapplers to recreational rollers to retired fighters who don't still compete but still train to kids.

What exactly is your point davey boy?

My point is, that you rarely see men beyond 55 (really lets say beyond 40 here) doing any sort of exercise that would be considered to a standard of a competitive fighter regimen.

I think a lot of guys play at it a couple of times a week, but let me posit this, what exactly is the purpose of training as a competitive fighter, if you don't fight competitively?

That's like training to fly to the moon and you're not a member of nasa.

Do you still compete?

[SavvySavage]

when i first started into kung fu, bag work was pretty regular, and I lived with my si hing, so we banged quite often. when the school finally opened, it had to appeal to a wider range of people, it's that simple.

I like that you came out of the closet and admitted to banging your si hing. :)

[-N-]

wow, you watch a lot of tv. everything is everything man and everyone is everywhere. :)

?

Not impossible. Just harder.

I grew up in the Mexican ghetto but live in the land of Starbucks now.

There weren't any soccer moms chauffeuring kids to games or milfs cheering their kids at swim meets where I grew up. Kids had good reason and incentive to be able to fight. One of my old instructors yelled at us kids for getting blood all over the mats and not cleaning up after we sparred.

Nowadays, kung fu is 3rd, 4th, or 5th on the list after baseball, soccer, track, and water polo. Everybody is so PC and civilized in the land of Starbucks. Kids aren't pulling knives on each other at school, and their priorities are different.

A big name Eagle Claw guy was telling me about his experience growing up in the ghetto. He and his friends were part of a Chinese gang. In addition to doing their gang stuff, they took it upon themselves to protect the nerdy asian kids from being victimized by the black gangs.

[David Jamieson]

I like that you came out of the closet and admitted to banging your si hing. :)

are you gay?

[David Jamieson]

What does training to the standards of competitive fighting have to do with it anyway? Your assertion was that sport training offers nothing to competitive sport fighters once they quit competing. Lots of competitors continue to train after they quit competing.

you gonna back pedal now?

you know exactly what I am saying. You want to deal in extremes all the time, so there you have it.

so what do they train? anything that you would find outside of any regular gym? is that really something special for you? Because that's cool if it is, but for me, I want something different, not so bland, so slow, so boring as just working out. it's boring repeating the alphabet over and pver again. Dead end. Nowhere to grow.

Kung Fu on the other hand rolls on into a whole new experience right up to yoru last breath should you choose to practice. never boring, more that is designed for you to use throughout your life.

you talk like every guy out there is a helio gracie. I'm telling you dudes like Helio are Outliers. How many of those old guys training the kids are showing their gut by the way? :p

[David Jamieson]

?

Not impossible. Just harder.

I grew up in the Mexican ghetto but live in the land of Starbucks now.

There weren't any soccer moms chauffeuring kids to games or milfs cheering their kids at swim meets where I grew up. Kids had good reason and incentive to be able to fight. One of my old instructors yelled at us kids for getting blood all over the mats and not cleaning up after we sparred.

Nowadays, kung fu is 3rd, 4th, or 5th on the list after baseball, soccer, track, and water polo. Everybody is so PC and civilized in the land of Starbucks. Kids aren't pulling knives on each other at school, and their priorities are different.

A big name Eagle Claw guy was telling me about his experience growing up in the ghetto. He and his friends were part of a Chinese gang. In addition to doing their gang stuff, they took it upon themselves to protect the nerdy asian kids from being victimized by the black gangs.

there is nothing appealing about a ghetto man.
people should be educated, should walk upright and ghettos should be demolished and replaced with land of starbucks and kids not pulling knives on each other. And punks trying to be hard ass cause they are not making money cause they can't get a job because they aren't educated and don't walk upright, they can dissappear.

see what I'm saying?

Ghetto ain't nothing. It's a hold back, a draw back, a hole of despair and uselessness that msut be broken out of.

they shouldn't exist. the world's better off without them.

anyway, it's really not about where you came from, it's about who you are now and what you are contributing to society. Nobody cares about the rest, what are you now is what's important on any given day.

[-N-]

see what I'm saying?


Got it. Agreed too.

Just would like to see some students that have the fire in them to learn.

My Sihing and I look around us and sigh, "This is what it's come to."

The land of Starbucks is great. But it will be the death of kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

How am I back pedaling, Davey Boy? My assertion all along was that sport fighters don't quit after they quit competing. I'm telling you they don't. Again, like most things, you don't know because you have no clue. I know because I train with them.




Well, I've probably been training in the "sport" model longer than you have been training in the TMA method and I can tell you I'm not bored yet... neither are the other guys who have been doing it longer than I have.

Of course you are making assertions on something you have no experience with, but what else is new about that.




Probably a lot less fat "sport" guys out there than the old, out-of-shape fat kung fu teachers out there.

why do you insist on calling me davey boy? do you ahve some sort of inferiority complex that you need to refer to a 46 year old man as boy?

You posture well. Personally, I think you're full of **** and nothing more than an opinionated little troll with a huge chip on his shoulder for who know what reason.

That's how you've always come across and it's most unfortunate, because if you actualy know what you claim you know, you cuold've made some real contributions.

But instead, you come across as an asshat at the best of times.

oh well.

[Lucas]

these guys are a pretty good example of the effect of mma on cma.

http://www.nwfighting.com/index.html

[PalmStriker]

Now thats funny!LOLOLOL

Agreed, Funny! :D

[Lucas]

to be fair if i were to actually seperate groups of martial artists in my brain. which i really generally dont do. there are good and bad of everything, but to me a martial artist is a martial artist, some fight some dont fighters are fighters some suck and some dont.

but at the same time, there are a lot of lame ass people out there. on average there are more guys involved in mma that are getting solid training and sparring hard and stuff...in america.

when i think about competative kung fu i dont think about forms, i dont think about the medicine, or the therapy, or the culture or any of that. i think about the fighters. there are so many freaking san shou fighters in the world, you could never in your life name them all. a good percentage of those guys can strike, clinch and throw to a adequate and competative degree. arguably you find some sanshou guys that can out strike your standard mma guy. but thats neither here nor there.

the point is that if you want to address kung fu based on its competative fighting, you have to pick the right venue. which is where they fight. there is so much evidence of these guys training and fightin on the internet you cant even watch it all. i can garantee you there is a thousand 18year old sanshou guys in china that would have a fair shot of knocking any of us in this thread out in a strike sanshou match. probably more. but again, neither here nor there.

you guys are basically arguing competative fighting vs cultural attachment. duh, its not a viable debate.

end.

[Syn7]

there are just as many farm boy fighters as there are inner city fighters... throwing hay and flipping tractor tires gives them what in wrestling we called "farmboy strength"... dont underestimate rural people just because they dont whatch rap video, put in fake gold teeth, talk about money women and skills they dont have and believe theyre tough coz they can get a gun... well farmboy got a 30/30 for his 12th birthday from grampa to replace the .22 rifle he got when he was 8...

besides, you cant fight with your belt buckle riding your kneecaps, let alone carry a burner without holding onto it all the time so it doesnt fall out and shoot you in the ass...

[Violent Designs]

there are just as many farm boy fighters as there are inner city fighters... throwing hay and flipping tractor tires gives them what in wrestling we called "farmboy strength"... dont underestimate rural people just because they dont whatch rap video, put in fake gold teeth, talk about money women and skills they dont have and believe theyre tough coz they can get a gun... well farmboy got a 30/30 for his 12th birthday from grampa to replace the .22 rifle he got when he was 8...

besides, you cant fight with your belt buckle riding your kneecaps, let alone carry a burner without holding onto it all the time so it doesnt fall out and shoot you in the ass...

lol

lol

[Dragonzbane76]

there are just as many farm boy fighters as there are inner city fighters... throwing hay and flipping tractor tires gives them what in wrestling we called "farmboy strength"... dont underestimate rural people just because they dont whatch rap video, put in fake gold teeth, talk about money women and skills they dont have and believe theyre tough coz they can get a gun... well farmboy got a 30/30 for his 12th birthday from grampa to replace the .22 rifle he got when he was 8...

besides, you cant fight with your belt buckle riding your kneecaps, let alone carry a burner without holding onto it all the time so it doesnt fall out and shoot you in the ass...

haha

don't forget about the white trash rednecks. Every rural area has them. :p

[David Jamieson]

haha

don't forget about the white trash rednecks. Every rural area has them. :p

And this board has a couple too. :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

And this board has a couple too. :D

It also has some pansy a*ss, limp noodle liberals, but hey, who's keeping track!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread has become far more gay and with far more ***** waving than any thread ever needs to be.

[Violent Designs]

This thread has become far more gay and with far more ***** waving than any thread ever needs to be.

should we move it to the wing chun forum then?

[sanjuro_ronin]

should we move it to the wing chun forum then?

I don't think its gotten THAT bad yet, give it a few more posts and I am sure someone will bring up the word "lineage".
:D

[Dragonzbane76]

eh... it's all discussion, if we didn't have this we would be mumbling about internal crap or external crap... blah blah blah...I rather enjoy the tossing back and forth.

[MightyB]

Yep. Most people don't like the other kind of training. Students quit after 1 class.



Need more schools like that.

This has been my point for the last 4 years on KFM! It's not the schools. It's not the teachers -- it's the students that suck. When I first started - we did hard chi gung exercises every class. This involved being hit with staffs, bags, and boards. People would come in and observe this and never come back because they were scared off.

Unfortunately - we, as a community, allow this kowtowing to the pu$$ies. Set the expectation that what you're doing is martial and live with it. Yes, you'll lose some students, but the one's you gain will be soooooo much better for kung fu.

Too bad the majority of *this* generation's Sifus comes from the wuss line. And I'm talking about most of you. :eek:

[David Jamieson]

This has been my point for the last 4 years on KFM! It's not the schools. It's not the teachers -- it's the students that suck. When I first started - we did hard chi gung exercises every class. This involved being hit with staffs, bags, and boards. People would come in and observe this and never come back because they were scared off.

Unfortunately - we, as a community, allow this kowtowing to the pu$$ies. Set the expectation that what you're doing is martial and live with it. Yes, you'll lose some students, but the one's you gain will be soooooo much better for kung fu.

Too bad the majority of *this* generation's Sifus comes from the wuss line. And I'm talking about most of you. :eek:

yes, because only you have the realzors! lol

if a person runs a business, he is ruled by his customers. no satisfaction from them = no business = no school to run and no teacher to teach.

people who go to ma classes for the most part are not interested in fighting all the time or becoming a hard ass or any of that.

many are happy to study for the rest of their lives and enjoy practice.

I think it's good that this can be offered along with the other. Kung Fu is a big umbrella. :)

[MightyB]

yes, because only you have the realzors! lol

if a person runs a business, he is ruled by his customers. no satisfaction from them = no business = no school to run and no teacher to teach.

people who go to ma classes for the most part are not interested in fighting all the time or becoming a hard ass or any of that.

many are happy to study for the rest of their lives and enjoy practice.

I think it's good that this can be offered along with the other. Kung Fu is a big umbrella. :)

this is a misconception that a lot of business people make. There's a strategy that involves "firing your worst customers". Basically - you get rid of the ones you don't want and focus on the ones you do. It involves defining your business model, understanding yourself and what you like to do and who you like to service, and lot's of courage.

People discover that they didn't enjoy their work because they spent the majority of their time placating people they don't like working with. They tend to be the whiners and time takers, and the people they like working with leave because they're not getting what they want.

So - in MA terms, you end up with a school of LARPERS and children (daycare) and all of your favorite Martial students go to the Thai or BJJ gym down the street.

It takes a lot of courage, but, if you want a combat school, run a combat school. The students will come and you'll be happier for it.

[Jorge]

there are just as many farm boy fighters as there are inner city fighters... throwing hay and flipping tractor tires gives them what in wrestling we called "farmboy strength"... dont underestimate rural people just because they dont whatch rap video, put in fake gold teeth, talk about money women and skills they dont have and believe theyre tough coz they can get a gun... well farmboy got a 30/30 for his 12th birthday from grampa to replace the .22 rifle he got when he was 8...

besides, you cant fight with your belt buckle riding your kneecaps, let alone carry a burner without holding onto it all the time so it doesnt fall out and shoot you in the ass...


Bro,

I really don't listen to rap, dont rock fronts and stopped talking about money and *****es a long time ago.

You can develope your farmboy strength all you like, but what is it going to do for you when you come to the hood and find a 9 in your face and now your getting Jooksed. You can carry all the rifles you like, its the ones you dont see comng that will do it to ya.

Belt riding your kneecaps aint our thing. That is something recent. We gave fair ones and we can fight. Maybe in the country wrestling is allowed, but if I see you take my dude to the ground and try to twist him or snap something of his, I'm gonig to bust you open with the first thing I find. Its survival to us and its real. It's not a joke to see who can fight the best or what style is the best. Fnck who can fight the best, I'm about surviving.

To underestimate anybody is a foolish mistake, so don't underestimate us city dudes, because we have been given lemons since day one, but we try to make the best lemonaid we possibly can with it.

I

[MightyB]

I don't think its gotten THAT bad yet, give it a few more posts and I am sure someone will bring up the word "lineage".
:D

My lineage is bigger than yours!!!

[TenTigers]

every school has an "inner circle," a group of guys who want to go harder, train harder, fight harder. Just so long as you nurture and develop them, rather than catering to the "customers" they won't quit and join some (agh) MMA school down the block. Next thing you know, they will think they know it all about TCMA, start posting on KFO, stalking TCMA guys...

[MightyB]

every school has an "inner circle," a group of guys who want to go harder, train harder, fight harder. Just so long as you nurture and develop them, rather than catering to the "customers" they won't quit and join some (agh) MMA school down the block. Next thing you know, they will think they know it all about TCMA, start posting on KFO, stalking TCMA guys...

look at my earlier post about "firing your worst customers". Don't make this inner circle the exception, make them the norm. Seriously your school will grow with these types of people. If you don't believe me, drop into your local MMA or BJJ gym and look at the number and type of students. These guys would come to Kung Fu if you really know your stuff because there are a lot of McMMA schools now too, so the school with the best knowledge available wins the students.

[David Jamieson]

this is a misconception that a lot of business people make. There's a strategy that involves "firing your worst customers". Basically - you get rid of the ones you don't want and focus on the ones you do. It involves defining your business model, understanding yourself and what you like to do and who you like to service, and lot's of courage.

People discover that they didn't enjoy their work because they spent the majority of their time placating people they don't like working with. They tend to be the whiners and time takers, and the people they like working with leave because they're not getting what they want.

So - in MA terms, you end up with a school of LARPERS and children (daycare) and all of your favorite Martial students go to the Thai or BJJ gym down the street.

It takes a lot of courage, but, if you want a combat school, run a combat school. The students will come and you'll be happier for it.

well, i think that's a terrible business strategy and just cuts yourself off from opportunity because you can't communicate effectively with a wide range of people.

I don't look at it like that. All customers are customers. Anyone who pays for a service deserves to have that service. If you waste your time as opposed to using it effectively, that's your issue, not theirs.

Make your offerings clear and stick to it.

True, if you want to run a combat school, go ahead and do that. But really, those aren't the most successful businesses at all really. They're just like any other.
the more elite you get, the more you have to charge to make any business worthwhile.

A greater saturation will bring the greatest returns and really, Kung Fu does have something for everybody. It's not exclusionary or exclusive to a particular type of person.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Not everyone who runs a Kung Fu or any martial arts school are in it to make money. I have a full time job so when I taught as long as I made enough to pay the bills I was happy, and sometimes even that was hard. I am working on opening another school right now and the building I am using I own so I don't have to worry about rent and what not, which helps.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with running a school as a business to make a living, just saying there are those of us who don't.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

this is a misconception that a lot of business people make. There's a strategy that involves "firing your worst customers". Basically - you get rid of the ones you don't want and focus on the ones you do. It involves defining your business model, understanding yourself and what you like to do and who you like to service, and lot's of courage.

People discover that they didn't enjoy their work because they spent the majority of their time placating people they don't like working with. They tend to be the whiners and time takers, and the people they like working with leave because they're not getting what they want.

So - in MA terms, you end up with a school of LARPERS and children (daycare) and all of your favorite Martial students go to the Thai or BJJ gym down the street.

It takes a lot of courage, but, if you want a combat school, run a combat school. The students will come and you'll be happier for it.

You mean run a combat martial arts school where there is, GASP, combat? The madness, man, where do you come up with these things.:D

[MightyB]

well, i think that's a terrible business strategy and just cuts yourself off from opportunity because you can't communicate effectively with a wide range of people.

I don't look at it like that. All customers are customers. Anyone who pays for a service deserves to have that service. If you waste your time as opposed to using it effectively, that's your issue, not theirs.

Make your offerings clear and stick to it.

True, if you want to run a combat school, go ahead and do that. But really, those aren't the most successful businesses at all really. They're just like any other.
the more elite you get, the more you have to charge to make any business worthwhile.

A greater saturation will bring the greatest returns and really, Kung Fu does have something for everybody. It's not exclusionary or exclusive to a particular type of person.

It depends on you, and firing your worst customers is a process that requires a decision and a commitment on the part of the business owner. A lot of people hear, "fire your worst customer" and think that's all there is to it. It does depend more on you and you have to take inventory of what it is that the customer is bringing to the table because the customer / business relationship is two way. You can't "fire" a pain in the butt customer that is giving you grief if they provide 90% of your business. What you can do is tailor a plan to decrease that customer's value to you and replace it with a more satisfying relationship over time so that you will be in a position to fire that customer at a later date.

If you're satisfied and profitable and like how things are going... then by all means be a daycare and tailor your training to the LARPER. Or, you could start to minimize that part of your business (keeping it intact) while you go about aggressively building a different client base of athletes. Coach Ross is a good example about how to go about doing that. As that client base grows - start systematically decreasing the cheap daycare and kung fu fantasy camps.

[David Jamieson]

It depends on you, and firing your worst customers is a process that requires a decision and a commitment on the part of the business owner. A lot of people hear, "fire your worst customer" and think that's all there is to it. It does depend more on you and you have to take inventory of what it is that the customer is bringing to the table because the customer / business relationship is two way. You can't "fire" a pain in the butt customer that is giving you grief if they provide 90% of your business. What you can do is tailor a plan to decrease that customer's value to you and replace it with a more satisfying relationship over time so that you will be in a position to fire that customer at a later date.

If you're satisfied and profitable and like how things are going... then by all means be a daycare and tailor your training to the LARPER. Or, you could start to minimize that part of your business (keeping it intact) while you go about aggressively building a different client base of athletes. Coach Ross is a good example about how to go about doing that. As that client base grows - start systematically decreasing the cheap daycare and kung fu fantasy camps.

It's called scheduling classes.

most all martial arts schools are daycares with kids programs anyway, which again, for most is the core bread and butter.

[MightyB]

It's called scheduling classes.

most all martial arts schools are daycares with kids programs anyway, which again, for most is the core bread and butter.

Yeah - wtf would I know about running a business... I mean I only run a successful multimedia company in the worst economy in the US in the worst state to do business in.
:rolleyes: You can see it here: http://www.JTV.tv

Anyway...

That type of placating attitude is what's killing TCMA for the alleged "MMAers" that continue to post on this forum. I say "alleged MMAers" because most of them still do kung fu (that's why they continue to post).

You know what I can't stand? I can't stand not being able to buy Kung Fu magazine at a regular news stand anymore yet on that same stand there's 4 different versions of MMA fan boy magazines. That's telling me there's something wrong in how we're presenting ourselves and it is more than just a MMA "Fad" issue.

[lkfmdc]

watching people who don't run successful schools talking about how to run a successful school is always amusing to watch....

BTW, since 2009 there has been an average of 3 martial arts schools closing PER MONTH according to at least one industry source

[David Jamieson]

Yeah - wtf would I know about running a business... I mean I only run a successful multimedia company in the worst economy in the US in the worst state to do business in.
:rolleyes: You can see it here: http://www.JTV.tv

Anyway...

That type of placating attitude is what's killing TCMA for the alleged "MMAers" that continue to post on this forum. I say "alleged MMAers" because most of them still do kung fu (that's why they continue to post).

You know what I can't stand? I can't stand not being able to buy Kung Fu magazine at a regular news stand anymore yet on that same stand there's 4 different versions of MMA fan boy magazines. That's telling me there's something wrong in how we're presenting ourselves and it is more than just a MMA "Fad" issue.

I'm not criticizing your business or your business model. What I am saying is that business models are not one size fits all. :)

Nice site btw.

As for print media, it is almost dead and the days of news stands will be a bygone with the ubiquity of smart devices and net savvy publishers.

print media never made money from subscriptions really and it is ad revenues that drive the business even now. subscription dependent print companies are having a really hard time staying afloat.

the internet killed the print business in many ways and is continuing to beat the crap out of it.

paid subscribers are very difficult to garner as well.

so, webvertising is hugely key and having a slick site with content people want is key.

KFM here is actually on the right track. I think that if they open up to more external advertising that doesn't interfere with the core business of selling merch, they will do quite well and possibly serve as a model for the industry in some respects.

If we look at the fitness or gym business, it has always had a really crap model upon which it is run.

Subscribe and use. There is no up selling really as much as there should be, or side offerings with extra costs and so on which is how it should be done.

many people are lazy though and just want the up front cash and are happy to lay that against the bottom line. But that means you have to keep milling people in and eventually you reach critical mass and cannot provide a decent place for your customers and they will leave because of that.

It's the up sells and side offerings that are key to a thriving fitness business.

Me personally, I don't run a school, but I will teach. I refuse to waste my time with people and therefore the time wasters drop away. I don't do it for money, I have a full time job that takes up my time for money. Kung Fu I love and I am willing to share what I have learned with anyone else that shows the desire for it.

I can tell you that if I did run a club it would have room for hippies and hard core and kids as well. Something for everyone on their schedule. I would also have a store in school, affiliate with publications such as this and sell all required items through the school store and offer items through promos.

It's not rocket science, but energy and time investment and real care is required. It is folly to wait for things to happen, you simply HAVE to make things happen. I'm sure you understand that as you are an entrepreneur yourself.

[MightyB]

watching people who don't run successful schools talking about how to run a successful school is always amusing to watch....

BTW, since 2009 there has been an average of 3 martial arts schools closing PER MONTH according to at least one industry source

One thing that I've found is that all businesses run in essentially the same way. Regardless if they're an ice cream shop, clothing store, auto parts place, gym... doesn't matter.

Location matters. A definitive branding and marketing strategy (even more important if you don't have a good location), discipline, and a business plan with a vision statement. Cost control (if you can't measure it, you can't manage it), and a clear understanding of your inventory and how it relates to the bottom line. Diversification whenever possible (but always diversification has to ad value to your core business strategy). And- I didn't realize how powerful this is until the recession hit, but understanding your brand identity and living by it (this is a process, but can be defined simply as answering these questions "why are you in business, and why would somebody go to you over another? You then find a unique and own-able brand statement that can only be defined by you).

Using this strategy - I've not only ran a successful business locally, I've consulted several others into becoming stronger despite the economy. And.... (drum roll please) helped to start a martial arts club (since none of us want to do it full time) that's become the fastest growing martial arts organization in the area. We've had to move 3 times now to bigger locations because of student growth.

[TAO YIN]

Could be gaayest thread, ever.

[MightyB]

I'm not criticizing your business or your business model. What I am saying is that business models are not one size fits all. :)

Nice site btw.

As for print media, it is almost dead and the days of news stands will be a bygone with the ubiquity of smart devices and net savvy publishers.

print media never made money from subscriptions really and it is ad revenues that drive the business even now. subscription dependent print companies are having a really hard time staying afloat.

the internet killed the print business in many ways and is continuing to beat the crap out of it.

paid subscribers are very difficult to garner as well.

so, webvertising is hugely key and having a slick site with content people want is key.

KFM here is actually on the right track. I think that if they open up to more external advertising that doesn't interfere with the core business of selling merch, they will do quite well and possibly serve as a model for the industry in some respects.

If we look at the fitness or gym business, it has always had a really crap model upon which it is run.

Subscribe and use. There is no up selling really as much as there should be, or side offerings with extra costs and so on which is how it should be done.

many people are lazy though and just want the up front cash and are happy to lay that against the bottom line. But that means you have to keep milling people in and eventually you reach critical mass and cannot provide a decent place for your customers and they will leave because of that.

It's the up sells and side offerings that are key to a thriving fitness business.

Me personally, I don't run a school, but I will teach. I refuse to waste my time with people and therefore the time wasters drop away. I don't do it for money, I have a full time job that takes up my time for money. Kung Fu I love and I am willing to share what I have learned with anyone else that shows the desire for it.

I can tell you that if I did run a club it would have room for hippies and hard core and kids as well. Something for everyone on their schedule. I would also have a store in school, affiliate with publications such as this and sell all required items through the school store and offer items through promos.

It's not rocket science, but energy and time investment and real care is required. It is folly to wait for things to happen, you simply HAVE to make things happen. I'm sure you understand that as you are an entrepreneur yourself.

I like this... I wasn't getting where you were coming from before. I guess we think a like.

I was just trying to make the point that we as a community are making the bed that we sleep in, and it's possible to change it, but it'd be hard. That's why I don't mind all of the MMA talk on KFM. And- for the most part, I don't think they're MMAers really, I think their hearts are still in to Kung Fu, they're just dissatisfied with how kung fu is portrayed to the rest of the world.


and lkfmdc, I think you're one of the few that's doing everything right.

[TAO YIN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7GyOPmBPR4&feature=related














haha

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7GyOPmBPR4&feature=related














haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU

[David Jamieson]

gayer...gayer....gaaaayyyyyer.

It's getting there. needs work but soon this thread will be totally gay.

:p

[MightyB]

gayer...gayer....gaaaayyyyyer.

It's getting there. needs work but soon this thread will be totally gay.

:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpceOOk2zog

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpceOOk2zog

my issue with rolling is not the ubiquity of gay guys that are into it, but the freaking low level of hygiene I have consistently encountered when trying it at regular gyms.

It's atrocious and to find a club with high standards is difficult to say the least. I live in a city of millions and there are only a few clubs that fit the desirable level of hygiene +instructional quality here. And they are too expensive to have my interest really. Plus, in all honesty, I'm not really into it in a big way.

Not saying they aren't out there, but the BJJ with added MRSA is all to freaking common.

It's a drag really, but, that's how it goes I guess.

[IronFist]

but the BJJ with added MRSA is all to freaking common.


Wait, MRSA is common at BJJ schools?

[MasterKiller]

Wait, MRSA is common at BJJ schools?

Hell yes. In all sport schools, actually, but prevalent in BJJ the most.

[David Jamieson]

Wait, MRSA is common at BJJ schools?

Uh, where have you been? lol

let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MRSA+is+common+at+BJJ+schools)

:p

[MasterKiller]

Defense Soap will be your friend.

[David Jamieson]

Defense Soap will be your friend.

Bleach sprayed Mats and a clean freak proprietor will be your friend as well.

[lkfmdc]

Never had anything more than regular "ringworm" and every time it was from someone going to train someplace else that was nasty dirty. In fact, in 2 years since we put in place "don't roll someplace else and then come here" we have had ZERO issues....

It is always the dirty stinky *******s anyway

[IronFist]

Maybe in the country wrestling is allowed, but if I see you take my dude to the ground and try to twist him or snap something of his, I'm gonig to bust you open with the first thing I find.



So if I get in a fight with someone in the city I'm not allowed to grapple?

I didn't know there were rules.

Well hopefully it's not me vs. some dude with a bunch of friends... unless I have a bunch of friends there ready to bust you open as soon as you bust me open :rolleyes:

lol @ ghetto logic. "ok dude we are FIGHTING. But NO GRAPPLING. Grappling isn't fair! If you try to grapple me then my friend is gonna come out of nowhere and bust your head open. That is fair, by the way! You are not allowed to take your advantages (grappling) but I am allowed to take my advantages (my friends if I start to lose)."

[MasterKiller]

Never had anything more than regular "ringworm" and every time it was from someone going to train someplace else that was nasty dirty. In fact, in 2 years since we put in place "don't roll someplace else and then come here" we have had ZERO issues....

It is always the dirty stinky *******s anyway

I got it because I let a kid wear his highschool wrestling shoes in class.


Bleach sprayed Mats and a clean freak proprietor will be your friend as well.
Cleaning the mats is a priority, but you can't control what people come in with on their skin.

[Dragonzbane76]

lol at the "ghetto this ghetto that"

I've met white trailer trash 3 times worse than most crap in the inner city. you speak as if "ghetto" is the only place they are ruthless... I've seen ruthless out away from the city... and the only reason you don't hear of it as much is because ITS AWAY FROM THE CITY and there is no one to find after. Lots of space. Lots of deep dark hollows and forest.

not getting into "mine is more bad a$$" because there is both in places you wouldn't think. Don't dimiss "country" bumpkins, just as many mean motherFers, out away as there are in the cities.

[Dragonzbane76]

caught it once grappling with some dude in class, guy was young and went to other schools to grapple as well. Had to get some lamiscil pills for it and some cream.

Up until that point i hadn't wore a rash guard all the time... after that I wear one every time I roll.

[TenTigers]

ok, not to hijack (well, just a wee tad...) I just bought Zebra mats-the woodgrain-very cool indeed. They sell a cleaner but it's $35.00 and the shipping is over 10.00-so I am looking for a good cleaner that is going to be a total antibacterial/antimicrobial guaranteed to eliminate staph, mrsa,etc.
so, besides bleach, what do you guys use?
oh, and the ghey jits guys can also chime in-I know it's hard to clean all that DNA up off the mats.

[TenTigers]

caught it once grappling with some dude in class, guy was young and went to other schools to grapple as well. Had to get some lamiscil pills for it and some cream.

Up until that point i hadn't wore a rash guard all the time... after that I wear one every time I roll.
you should wear saran wrap....

[Lucas]

leather face eats kids from the ghetto.

[MasterKiller]

ok, not to hijack (well, just a wee tad...) I just bought Zebra mats-the woodgrain-very cool indeed. They sell a cleaner but it's $35.00 and the shipping is over 10.00-so I am looking for a good cleaner that is going to be a total antibacterial/antimicrobial guaranteed to eliminate staph, mrsa,etc.
so, besides bleach, what do you guys use?
oh, and the ghey jits guys can also chime in-I know it's hard to clean all that DNA up off the mats.

Ammonia or Bleach

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac64/sgtandyv/PhoDOHsWTF4.jpg

[Syn7]

Bro,

I really don't listen to rap, dont rock fronts and stopped talking about money and *****es a long time ago.

You can develope your farmboy strength all you like, but what is it going to do for you when you come to the hood and find a 9 in your face and now your getting Jooksed. You can carry all the rifles you like, its the ones you dont see comng that will do it to ya.

Belt riding your kneecaps aint our thing. That is something recent. We gave fair ones and we can fight. Maybe in the country wrestling is allowed, but if I see you take my dude to the ground and try to twist him or snap something of his, I'm gonig to bust you open with the first thing I find. Its survival to us and its real. It's not a joke to see who can fight the best or what style is the best. Fnck who can fight the best, I'm about surviving.

To underestimate anybody is a foolish mistake, so don't underestimate us city dudes, because we have been given lemons since day one, but we try to make the best lemonaid we possibly can with it.

I


ok A: it was mostly a joke

B: i wasnt actually talking about you.

C: tough people come from all over... to believe that inner city kids are tougher than country kids is the mark of a moron...



but, you will rarely find anyone who works as hard and starts working as young as a farmboy... this work ethic usually transfers over to sports and allows them to do pretty well...


for the record, i grew up in the city...

[Syn7]

yeah, thats a bit much MK.... at first i ooked and im thinking, "why did he post this?" then i saw why... i'd rather i hadnt...

nasty sh!t, man...

[Dragonzbane76]

haha MK hahah


:)

[lkfmdc]

bleach and soap and water.... good enough for wrestling programs across the country, that and get on your lazy and dirty students to clean up their act (literally)

[Jorge]

ok A: it was mostly a joke

B: i wasnt actually talking about you.

C: tough people come from all over... to believe that inner city kids are tougher than country kids is the mark of a moron...



but, you will rarely find anyone who works as hard and starts working as young as a farmboy... this work ethic usually transfers over to sports and allows them to do pretty well...


for the record, i grew up in the city...


Ok, cool it was mostly a joke. We're cool either way. I was just giving my persective on points you brought up. I wasn't meaning what I said to you directly. May bad, if it came across that way.

The reason why I said, "To under estimate anyone is foolish".

You may have grown up in the city, but it doesn't mean we've experienced the same things... With all due respect of course!

[Frost]

Never had anything more than regular "ringworm" and every time it was from someone going to train someplace else that was nasty dirty. In fact, in 2 years since we put in place "don't roll someplace else and then come here" we have had ZERO issues....

It is always the dirty stinky *******s anyway

what he said, clean your schools and make sure the students stay clean and use clean kit and its not a problem

[Syn7]

Ok, cool it was mostly a joke. We're cool either way. I was just giving my persective on points you brought up. I wasn't meaning what I said to you directly. May bad, if it came across that way.

The reason why I said, "To under estimate anyone is foolish".

You may have grown up in the city, but it doesn't mean we've experienced the same things... With all due respect of course!

nah ofcourse... im just saying im not a farmboy... im giving due props from the outside looking in... they impressed me... im serious, these kids have retard strength, no joke... its insane... by far the strongest demographic on average... that ive come across anyways...

[Syn7]

also wrestling devolopes strength like no other art does... i stand by that...

not that im any great example... i feel weak when i wrestle now...

[PalmStriker]

Defense Soap will be your friend.

":)defense Soap-on-a-Rope" will be an even better friend, as in: Don't ask, Don't tell, and Don't drop the Soap!

[Sardinkahnikov]

Fvck Masterkiller, why do you have to post such vomit-inducing garbage?

Jesus...BJJ, farmboys...

This thread is too strong in teh ghey.
I, in true heroic fashion, will revert this dread situation before we start singing "I am what I am" together.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5-tbWcg27uE/SYfMWhPqluI/AAAAAAAABGY/R2KZU45QEds/s400/denise-milani-8.jpg
You're welcome.

[goju]

^ **** shes fiiiiiiiiiine!!!!!:D:D:D

Know her name?

[Syn7]

^ **** shes fiiiiiiiiiine!!!!!:D:D:D

Know her name?

why? running out of effective material???

[KC Elbows]

Fvck Masterkiller, why do you have to post such vomit-inducing garbage?

Jesus...BJJ, farmboys...

This thread is too strong in teh ghey.
I, in true heroic fashion, will revert this dread situation before we start singing "I am what I am" together.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5-tbWcg27uE/SYfMWhPqluI/AAAAAAAABGY/R2KZU45QEds/s400/denise-milani-8.jpg
You're welcome.

How do we know "she" isn't tucking?

[bawang]

kung fu dropped the soap and became mmas butt wife
now kung fu walks around with dried koolaid powder on his face (prison makeup) and is called wanda

[SoCo KungFu]

kung fu dropped the soap and became mmas butt wife
now kung fu walks around with dried koolaid powder on his face (prison makeup) and is called wanda

Bahahahahahha

[Sardinkahnikov]

How do we know "she" isn't tucking?

She's not thai.

Besides, you see the picture of a woman and you think of trannies? Very telling...:p

PS: Denise Milani was her name.

[bawang]

i like tranny
im trany chaser

[ManilaCrane]

What did MMA do to my kung fu? hmmmmmmm

only thing i need to worry about is ground game. So it looks like i have to create a couple of tactics and techniques to keep me on my feet and force them to play my game :p

[Sardinkahnikov]

i like tranny
im trany chaser

so thats how u practice iron anus...bawang the asshammered...

[Syn7]

apparently anal strikes can be deadly... but even when they arent, they will make your opponent very uncomfterable...

[EarthDragon]

the level of maturity on this board amazes me, how is anyone supposed to take a discussion seriously when threads turn into this?

[TenTigers]

the level of maturity on this board amazes me, how is anyone supposed to take a discussion seriously when threads turn into this?

why not? this thread wasn't taken seriously from the start.

[EarthDragon]

LOL good point tentigers!

[taai gihk yahn]

the level of maturity on this board amazes me, how is anyone supposed to take a discussion seriously when threads turn into this?

dude, it's not the MacNeil Lehrer News Hour here - besides, the intrinsic nature of this medium is the ability for multiple conversations to go on at the same time pertaining to the topic at all levels - that's why people come here, because it's the closest thing to the town square / agora that we have left as a culture (as you are probably aware, this was a major means of exchanging ideas and doing exactly what we are doing here for centuries, up until maybe 100 years ago or so - so this is actually more akin to what human society was like for much of its "civilized" history; we are just used to public dialogue being highly rigid and structured because that is all we know of late)

it's like a buffet - pick and choose according to your mood...

[David Jamieson]

stay away from teh sour grapes though because they're sour!

[EarthDragon]

taai,

the intrinsic nature of this medium is the ability for multiple conversations to go on at the same time pertaining to the topic at all levels - that's why people come here, because it's the closest thing to the town square / agora that we have left as a culture (as you are probably aware, this was a major means of exchanging ideas and doing exactly what we are doing here for centuries,

I agree, but when a really good discussion gets derailed by pictures of girls, I think I'm having a discussion with 12 year old bevis and ******** who get distracted by seeing booobies. Not that there is anything wrong with boobies, who doesnt love them, but there are better websites for that.
However sometimes I get too serious and passionate about MA but helll I spent 29 years trying to learn this stuff, so never mind me carry on

[bawang]

a lot of kung fu "fighters" start learning mma to "defend the honor of kung fu" "make kung fu work" out of embarassement about the youtube videos and hurt egos, not out of love for fighting. thats why theres not gonna be many good kung fu fighters.

they keep trying to find a weakness in mma , looking for the magic counter, trying to defeat big bad bully mma, when the weakness is within themselves

[Syn7]

a lot of kung fu "fighters" start learning mma to "defend the honor of kung fu" "make kung fu work" out of embarassement about the youtube videos and hurt egos, not out of love for fighting. thats why theres not gonna be many good kung fu fighters.

they keep trying to find a weakness in mma , looking for the magic counter, trying to defeat big bad bully mma, when the weakness is within themselves

interesting way to look at it...

i think most tcma cats are waiting for some phoenix to rise from the ashes... disillusionment should be a good thing... but if it makes you give up everything you believe, makes me wonder how much you believed it in the first place... just look at how some people will clutch to a belief even when faced with overwhelming evidence against that belief...

personally, ive always been somewhat skeptic of everything and everyone... i dont think i believe very much where i have no doubts... not in an insecure way, just in a take it all with a grain of salt kind of way...

[Dragonzbane76]

i think most tcma cats are waiting for some phoenix to rise from the ashes... disillusionment should be a good thing... but if it makes you give up everything you believe, makes me wonder how much you believed it in the first place... just look at how some people will clutch to a belief even when faced with overwhelming evidence against that belief...

they can keep waiting, because that thing has been dead for awhile and now it's starting to stink.

[Hardwork108]

they can keep waiting, because that thing has been dead for awhile and now it's starting to stink.

This would beg the question why you and people like you, who think kung fu is "dead" insist on posting in a KUNG FU FORUM?

[Dragonzbane76]

This would beg the question why you and people like you, who think kung fu is "dead" insist on posting in a KUNG FU FORUM?
__________________

trying to help idiots like yourself realize they are living in a fantasy world, but its a long long road, especially you all wrapped up in wushu theater. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

the level of maturity on this board amazes me, how is anyone supposed to take a discussion seriously when threads turn into this?

AH dude, the MMA vs TMA thing has been settled ages ago and we have tons of evidence that is easily viewed over and over and over.
Any discussion about it will consist of half a dozen serious posts, 30 flaming posts and an assorted melange of pointless drivel and, with some luck, pics of nice looking babes.
Its the MA way !!

[TenTigers]

plain and simple;
1) MMA woke up alot of TCMA about the need for more realistic training and conditioning.

2 ) MMA woke up alot of TCMA about the need for a ground game,
If not only for the fact that since the surge in MMA, everybody and their Uncle will try to take you down and GNP,RNC, etc, so you'd better be comfortable in that range.
It don't get any simpler than that. I really don't understand how these threads get any longer than a few posts....

[sanjuro_ronin]

plain and simple;
1) MMA woke up alot of TCMA about the need for more realistic training and conditioning.

2 ) MMA woke up alot of TCMA about the need for a ground game,
If not only for the fact that since the surge in MMA, everybody and their Uncle will try to take you down and GNP,RNC, etc, so you'd better be comfortable in that range.
It don't get any simpler than that. I really don't understand how these threads get any longer than a few posts....

Rik has fu jow pai'd the correct and slapped its salami so badly that it has left the building to never return again !

[Dragonzbane76]

I really don't understand how these threads get any longer than a few posts....

haha to pass the time dear sir.

[EarthDragon]

gotcha sanjuro, I understand what your sayin.

dragon

trying to help idiots like yourself realize they are living in a fantasy world
Can we please stop with the name calling? how old are you to have to resort to calling names to prove your point. You shoudl have out grown this by 5th grade. honestly please might treat you better if you treat them better, calling someone an idiot becuse you disagree with them is really inapropriate.

[MasterKiller]

Kung Fu is the cow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rrO8AFGi_rc

[sanjuro_ronin]

gotcha sanjuro, I understand what your sayin.

dragon

Can we please stop with the name calling? how old are you to have to resort to calling names to prove your point. You shoudl have out grown this by 5th grade. honestly please might treat you better if you treat them better, calling someone an idiot becuse you disagree with them is really inapropriate.

AH dude, don't even bother, name calling is just too easy on the net, from "fantasy fighters" to "glorified kickboxers" to "mma knuckleheads" to "delusional fuctwat".
I don't get it either but for some reason people feel it's ok to call people names that would get their lights punched out in real life.

[David Jamieson]

I like training kung fu.
I enjoy the practice and benefit.

Meh, mma is what it is. It's not better than Chinese martial arts, in fact, there's chinese martial arts in it as well like anything else that's been cross cultured.

I'm not compromised because i don't train mma.
I do my bag work, I do my drills, I lift, I spar. It's all part and parcel to the kung fu I do.

If some mma armchair dude wants to bash that, go ahead. I really really don't care.

it's all good. :)

[KC Elbows]

**** Canadians are always leaving it up to us real 'muricans to carry out the ultimately unprofitable disagreements!

[Dragonzbane76]

Can we please stop with the name calling? how old are you to have to resort to calling names to prove your point. You shoudl have out grown this by 5th grade. honestly please might treat you better if you treat them better, calling someone an idiot becuse you disagree with them is really inapropriate.

haha this war goes far beyond name calling kind sir. Believe me you would know if I was directing the name calling your way. ;)

[EarthDragon]

dragon

haha this war goes far beyond name calling kind sir. Believe me you would know if I was directing the name calling your way

maybe the difference is I see it as a adult disscusion from different points of view, not a war.
And does it really matter who you are directing the name calling too? I would like to think you could post your opinon and make your point without having to insult someone, thats all.

Sanjuro,
sometimes I close my eyes and pretend I'm engaged in a mature conversation with other fellow martial artists................. then when I open my eyes I realize I'm on the Kung fu forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,
sometimes I close my eyes and pretend I'm engaged in a mature conversation with other fellow martial artists................. then when I open my eyes I realize I'm on the Kung fu forum.

AH dude, it's not THAT bad, as long as you stay out of the WC forum, that place will eat your brain !!
LOL !
Most forums are like this, trust me on that and those that aren't don't last very long, trust me on that too, I have been a Mod and Admin on a very serious MA forum, a couple actually and on Bullshido and I say this:
This forum TENDS to strike a happy medium, usually.

[EarthDragon]

ok kweel sanjuro , thanks for you post, and I take heed to your advice

[Iron_Eagle_76]

dragon


maybe the difference is I see it as a adult disscusion from different points of view, not a war.
And does it really matter who you are directing the name calling too? I would like to think you could post your opinon and make your point without having to insult someone, thats all.

Sanjuro,
sometimes I close my eyes and pretend I'm engaged in a mature conversation with other fellow martial artists................. then when I open my eyes I realize I'm on the Kung fu forum.

What the hell fun would that be?!:D In all seriousness, SR said it best. You cannot take things all that seriously on here, and there will always be people who disagree with you. If you use your head it's not hard to pick out the good discussions from the BS, and sometimes those get interwined, such is life. Also, if you haven't noticed, Dragonzbane and Hardwork have been internet sparring for a long time and are going to have a death match soon, so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in their discussions between them.

[YouKnowWho]

Most forums are like this, trust me on that and those that aren't don't last very long, trust me on that too,

A: What counters do you guys like to use to against a Beng Chuan?
B: You may try ...
C: You are not even a TCMA guy. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?
B: I'm trying to act like a TCMA guy. I'm learning Chinese. I promise that I will never mention the word "MMA" in this forum. Please allow me to stay in this forum. Please! Please! Please! ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

A: What counters do you guys like to use to against a Beng Chuan?

Thumb to ass works well.


B: You may try ...

Kinky but no, I like my chicken fried.


C: You are not even a TCMA guy. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?

The only thing hanging is what makes asians envious !!


B: I'm trying to act like a TCMA guy. I'm learning Chinese. I promise that I will never mention the word "MMA" in this forum. Please allow me to stay in this forum. Please! Please! Please! ...

Don't beg, it only turns Bawang on and you don't wanna turn Mr.Asshamer on !


:D

[David Jamieson]

A: What counters do you guys like to use to against a Beng Chuan? Stabbing, repeatedly, usually to the eye.


B: You may try ... anyone who tries, dies.


C: You are not even a TCMA guy. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here? am so, nyah!



B: I'm trying to act like a TCMA guy. I'm learning Chinese. I promise that I will never mention the word "MMA" in this forum. Please allow me to stay in this forum. Please! Please! Please! ...

m sik "mma"

[EarthDragon]

iron eagle,

You cannot take things all that seriously on here, and there will always be people who disagree with you.
yeah I beginning to see that.....


Also, if you haven't noticed, Dragonzbane and Hardwork have been internet sparring for a long time and are going to have a death match soon, so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in their discussions between them.

I see well I dont want to get in the middle of a lovers quarrel. apprently kniefighter has one going on with me, so I personally got about as much as I can handle.

thank you though for taking the time to post and get me straight. appriciated

[Hardwork108]

trying to help idiots like yourself realize they are living in a fantasy world, but its a long long road, especially you all wrapped up in wushu theater. :p

Actually, I have never been to "wushu theater", since you have, please tell us about it.....:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

Actually, I have never been to "wushu theater", since you have, please tell us about it.....

certainly, all the people there are just like you. :)

[Eric Hunstad]

What did MMA do to KF?

In the long run, it will definitely change it for the better. I used to love 80's hair metal, then Nirvana came out and all of the sudden, Poison looked kinda silly.

But I still love the stuff!

Anyway, when my teacher was coming up in the wild 1970's era, his first KF teacher Dr. Pai would emphasize fighting, pure and simple. He told me Dr. Pai would line up all the students at attention and then say "ok, everybody fight.....HIM!" and point someone out. Then all Hell would break loose and Pai made it clear- if you didn't fight, he would fight you. After awhile, Pai would yell "Hup"! (stop). OK, now, everybody fight......HER!!!. Yes, male, female it didn't matter. No macho hand gear, no mouth piece. No lawsuits. He would also occasionally turn off the lights in the middle of the melee. Pai also took his students out drinking to celebrate belt promotions and would encourage his students to fight. What was the result of this chaos? Pai Lum had some really great fighters.

Can we do this today? Of course not, today is the era of the lawyer. So MMA is the next best thing. When I had my commercial school (2000-2005), I taught TCMA and had someone else come in and teach Olympic TKD (great for kiddies), defensive tactics and knife fighting as regular classes. Then I had my BJJ buddy come over and do seminars with the intent of building interest and having him teach regular classes. But here in the armpit of Florida, there wasn't enough interest for that.

But what I failed to do was integrate everything. When and if I do it again, I will use a gym format, with MMA as the main event. I will still teach TCMA, but will have other classes as well, use the place more effectively with personal training, yoga, etc. The business reality is give the people what they want and since the meter is running on the lease 24 hrs/day, have classes as often as possible.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[Dragonzbane76]

Anyway, when my teacher was coming up in the wild 1970's era, his first KF teacher Dr. Pai would emphasize fighting, pure and simple. He told me Dr. Pai would line up all the students at attention and then say "ok, everybody fight.....HIM!" and point someone out. Then all Hell would break loose and Pai made it clear- if you didn't fight, he would fight you. After awhile, Pai would yell "Hup"! (stop). OK, now, everybody fight......HER!!!. Yes, male, female it didn't matter. No macho hand gear, no mouth piece. No lawsuits. He would also occasionally turn off the lights in the middle of the melee. Pai also took his students out drinking to celebrate belt promotions and would encourage his students to fight. What was the result of this chaos? Pai Lum had some really great fighters.

a lot of things were embellished pertaining to Pai.

anyways i agree with the rest of you statement.

[Eric Hunstad]

Dragon

I agree regarding Dr. Pai, there are MANY "inconsistencies" regarding him and his system. But Tom Turcotte (my teacher) is not one for tall tales and was telling me his first hand personal experience. He doesn't say many positive things about Pai Lum, and has some not-so-great stories about Dr. Pai as well (which I will not go into) but he does say Dr. Pai was a great fighter and a great coach. Pai knew how to push people mentally in ways that are just not seen anymore. TT told me Pai would take him (and other students) out to nightclubs and after Pai had a few drinks, make TT do Taming the Tiger on the crowded disco floor. Did Pai do this for his own entertainment or to train his students or both? We'll never know.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[Dragonzbane76]

I agree regarding Dr. Pai, there are MANY "inconsistencies" regarding him and his system. But Tom Turcotte (my teacher) is not one for tall tales and was telling me his first hand personal experience. He doesn't say many positive things about Pai Lum, and has some not-so-great stories about Dr. Pai as well (which I will not go into) but he does say Dr. Pai was a great fighter and a great coach. Pai knew how to push people mentally in ways that are just not seen anymore. TT told me Pai would take him (and other students) out to nightclubs and after Pai had a few drinks, make TT do Taming the Tiger on the crowded disco floor. Did Pai do this for his own entertainment or to train his students or both? We'll never know.

met many people in pai lum over the years and all have stories pertaining to pai and the "embellishments." I remember my teacher telling me stories of Dennis decker and the crazy crap he did. But when it comes down to it we will never know. Half of it I think is just stories the other half is just stupid IMO. Don't know don't care anymore to be truthful... out grew the past and needing it.

[shaolin_allan]

What's your opinion on this type of video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtGkkBnhYI

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I like the basic idea - their training format has a lot of potential for useful variation.

What are the characters for ZiYou Bodji?

[shaolin_allan]

自由搏击 = means free or synthesized combat i think

[gunbeatskroty]

plain and simple;

2 ) MMA woke up alot of TCMA about the need for a ground game,
If not only for the fact that since the surge in MMA, everybody and their Uncle will try to take you down and GNP,RNC, etc, so you'd better be comfortable in that range.
It don't get any simpler than that. I really don't understand how these threads get any longer than a few posts....

The best example, IMO, is Jason DeLucia. He's an accomplished Kung Fu guy (correct me if I'm wrong). But after losing to Royce Gracie once in closed mat challenge and then in UFC 2, he started cross training on his ground game and did quite well in Japan with Pancrase. His record is quite impressive. And this is like 16 years ago, which should have already answered all these arguments today.