Is it still "kung fu" if it looks like kickboxing?

[IronFist]

A while back I saw a video of some Mantis style dude sparring. It looked like kick boxing. There wasn't a single mantis-looking technique in there.

But apply this to any style. People often complain that when people of any style spar it often ends up looking like kick boxing. So can they still call it "[whatever] style kung fu"?

Or is it only "[whatever] style kung fu" if it is actually using techniques from that style?

I can just hear the replies of "oh well they were using PRINCIPLES from [whatever] style even if it looked like kick boxing."

Discuss.

[YouKnowWho]

If your opponent switches side in the middle of the fight, and if your back leg round house kick did not kick out at his waist, you don't understand the word "opening" no matter what style that you train. The moment that you attack the opening, the moment that you will fight just like a kickboxer.

[Lucas]

a real mantis can strike in 30 to 50 onethousands of a second.

now thats real kungfu!

[TenTigers]

if it has Chinese writing on the t-shirt, then, of course it's Kung-Fu.

[SanHeChuan]

Lets see this video.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

if it has Chinese writing on the t-shirt, then, of course it's Kung-Fu.

No, it's actually glorified kickboxing, because anyone wearing a t-shirt does not have teh real Kung Fu.:)

[goju]

why wouldnt it be?

[IronFist]

why wouldnt it be?

You tell me.

[Hardwork108]

A while back I saw a video of some Mantis style dude sparring. It looked like kick boxing. There wasn't a single mantis-looking technique in there.

But apply this to any style. People often complain that when people of any style spar it often ends up looking like kick boxing. So can they still call it "[whatever] style kung fu"?

Or is it only "[whatever] style kung fu" if it is actually using techniques from that style?

I can just hear the replies of "oh well they were using PRINCIPLES from [whatever] style even if it looked like kick boxing."

Discuss.

Have a look at this video clipo from China. Some may say that some of the stuff looks like "kickboxing", however, one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

So, the fact is that in a real fight, the moves cannot be executed cleanly, as in choreography, but the kung fu element should be recognizbable by informed onlookers.

[YouKnowWho]

one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:
Can you see CMA moves in this short clip (round house kick, side kick, knee strike, bear hug, outer hook)?

http://johnswang.com/Shan_shou11.wmv

[SPJ]

Have a look at this video clipo from China. Some may say that some of the stuff looks like "kickboxing", however, one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

So, the fact is that in a real fight, the moves cannot be executed cleanly, as in choreography, but the kung fu element should be recognizbable by informed onlookers.

the first one at 0.15 is called kao shuai in ba ji.

you may use forearm or elbow to kao while the lead leg tripping the opponent. in this case, he may be also doing knee(Xi) kao at the same time.

the posture may be called liang yi ding

if you do this in a high position, it can be called iron fan tie shan or plate kick pan ti.

what do you call the move in kickboxing?

if you may not name it in kickboxing, then it is not kickboxing?

:confused:

[Hardwork108]

Can you see CMA moves in this short clip (round house kick, side kick, knee strike, bear hug, outer hook)?

http://johnswang.com/Shan_shou11.wmv

Sorry YouKnowWho, for some reason I am not able to open the link. It could be a problem with my computer, but I will try again, later.

Just to add, when I watch Shan shou matches I can see CMA techniques, some of which exist in other contact martial arts. However, a lot of the time I notice that the Chinese fighters are more physically relaxed and fluid than their opponents from other styles.

There are video clips of Chinese San Da fighters against Japanese Kyokushinkai ones, and one can really see the contrast between the Chinese fighters' fluidity, in comparison to that of the Japanese ones.

IMHO, this contrast represents CMA qualities, as many kung fu styles emphasis softness, fluidity and relaxedness to higher levels than that of many other MAs, many times through their Internal training.

[Hardwork108]

the first one at 0.15 is called kao shuai in ba ji.

you may use forearm or elbow to kao while the lead leg tripping the opponent. in this case, he may be also doing knee(Xi) kao at the same time.

the posture may be called liang yi ding

if you do this in a high position, it can be called iron fan tie shan or plate kick pan ti.

what do you call the move in kickboxing?

if you may not name it in kickboxing, then it is not kickboxing?

:confused:

IMHO, it is not just the techniques, but how they are performed, that is stances, strategy, fluidity, etc.

Looking at the video I can see Baji elements. If I look at a couple of kickboxers fighting, then it usually looks like kickboxing.

[Syn7]

if you train in a solid stance, high or low, and then start bouncing when it comes time to fight, why not hop around in training???

[SanHeChuan]

A while back I saw a video of some Mantis style dude sparring. It looked like kick boxing. There wasn't a single mantis-looking technique in there.


Was it at least good kick boxing?

Were they wearing boxing gloves? That would make it difficult to use some the most recognizable techniques of Mantis. ;)

Some schools just talk about the techniques in the forms and don't drill them, or only drill them abstractly. :rolleyes:

where is this video, so we can verify your conclusions. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

If by kick boxing you mean that a person doing "kung fu" kicks and punches then yes, everytime anyone does kung fu that way it will look like KB>
Fact is, and this has been discussed ad nausem, when under the stress of combat and vs a resisteing trained opponent, ALL ma tend to look like KB because it is the most natural and effective way for the body to "move".
That said, it doesn't mean one is NOT doing kung fu, whatever THAT means.

[Faruq]

I know you guys are gonna pick this one apart because I've posted it twice before, but I've gotta post it since it doesn't look like kickboxing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg&feature=related

Once again this is like the only clip I can ever remember seeing that looked like an actual kung fu style instead of kick boxing...

[IronFist]

I know you guys are gonna pick this one apart because I've posted it twice before, but I've gotta post it since it doesn't look like kickboxing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg&feature=related

Once again this is like the only clip I can ever remember seeing that looked like an actual kung fu style instead of kick boxing...

Agreed. That looks like wing chun.

[Lucas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GtW0a00LCE

this looks like shaolin kungfu to me.

[Hardwork108]

if you train in a solid stance, high or low, and then start bouncing when it comes time to fight, why not hop around in training???

Generally speaking, one should not be hopping around or bouncing, when one is using kung fu, unless, it is an hop incorporated within a given style, eg. a Crane hop, which is different to that of boxing or TKD, and some Kickboxing "hopping" and "bouncing".

There are certain rooting principles in many TCMA styles, that have to be followed. These are some of the most difficult aspects of TCMAs to master and APPLY....
and I guess that is why many "kung fu-ists" ignore them, or "hop" over them, if you like....

[Lucas]

it really also depends on the person and their body type and how they use their body in mobility and footwork. i see people who train the same style fight move differently regarding bouncing/hopping.

there is a disconnect

between forms, solo pad/heavybag etc., drills in the air, and on to partner drills, pad/bag work with a trainer, sparring, fighting. you will see it increase from form to pad to sparring and fighting. how someone enters and exits etc.

its not the same thing in the sense that your state of being and reactionary movement/awareness arent going to be the same. like a fight isnt going to ever really look like a form.

a lot of times when people say 'look like kungfu' they refer to forms or movies. and no it wont look like that. BUT you will see people who fight and it will many times look like kung fu. esp if thats all they trained, you will see tendancies in things like ready stance, guard, entering/exiting, countering things like that.

but thats all in the nuances. you wont see beginners fight much different than any other beginners. thats how it is.

can you see thai boxing when its thai boxing, or how about someone who is a very advanced western boxer adapting to kickboxing but sparring hard with it, can you tell he has boxing training simply by how he fights and moves? the techniques and methods of thai boxing are so defined, prounounced, and focues that it is easy to see. but you can see the same qualities represent themselves from any style

[Hardwork108]

Good post!

This statement is true, and very revealing:



but thats all in the nuances. you wont see beginners fight much different than any other beginners. thats how it is.

That is why the so called "kung fu" trained MMA people who post here and say that all kung fu fighting looks like kickboxing, are actually talking about their own BEGINNER LEVEL of kung fu!

They have never gone beyond that level, so they see all fighting as KICKBOXING!

[goju]

if it makes some of you feel better instead of saying those kung fu guys fight like kickboxers you can just say the kickboxers fight like kung fu guys:p

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp74GsHUoYw

00:10 black use seven star stance red use beat the drum stance 00:17 black opens with singe whip red counter with tiger hug 0:36 red use step over tiger black counter with step over tiger 0:48 red use tiger tail kick ,black counter with brush knee, fails, tries beast head, fails 1:03 red tries low plant black counter with reverse step over tiger 1:22 clinch(jinlan siping) 1:45 face the sun

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp74GsHUoYw

00:10 black use seven star stance red use beat the drum stance 00:17 black opens with singe whip red counter with tiger hug 0:36 red use step over tiger black counter with step over tiger 0:48 red use tiger tail kick ,black counter with brush knee, fails, tries beast head, fails 1:03 red tries low plant black counter with reverse step over tiger 1:22 clinch(jinlan siping) 1:45 face the sun

Thank god Dave, for a second I thought you were going to post of your New York San Doh! "fights".....LOL!

[KC Elbows]

If by kick boxing you mean that a person doing "kung fu" kicks and punches then yes, everytime anyone does kung fu that way it will look like KB>
Fact is, and this has been discussed ad nausem, when under the stress of combat and vs a resisteing trained opponent, ALL ma tend to look like KB because it is the most natural and effective way for the body to "move".
That said, it doesn't mean one is NOT doing kung fu, whatever THAT means.

Muay thai never looks like kickboxing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Muay thai never looks like kickboxing.

Kickboxing is a generic term bro.

[KC Elbows]

Kickboxing is a generic term bro.

Generic for pale white dudes in the seventies not doing muay thai, I understand.:D

Nonetheless, muay thai looks like itself when done by people trained in it. And other kicking styles don't look like muay thai.

Are you saying that, in full contact matches, you can't distinguish the muay thai kickers trained in muay thai from ones trained in karate or some other kicking style?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Generic for pale white dudes in the seventies not doing muay thai, I understand.:D

Nonetheless, muay thai looks like itself when done by people trained in it. And other kicking styles don't look like muay thai.

Are you saying that, in full contact matches, you can't distinguish the muay thai kickers trained in muay thai from ones trained in karate or some other kicking style?

I'm not sure what your point is dude...

[KC Elbows]

Stylistic didfferences are not all ironed out in full contact. A muay thai fighter is usually apparent in mma, as are karate fighters somewhat less often. Most things are the same, but all? It really doesn't seem like full contact footage supports that conclusion.

[Shaolinlueb]

is point sparring, nuff said. its not a real fights its training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stylistic didfferences are not all ironed out in full contact. A muay thai fighter is usually apparent in mma, as are karate fighters somewhat less often. Most things are the same, but all? It really doesn't seem like full contact footage supports that conclusion.

Sure you will always see SOME stuff that is unique, Andy Hug doing Axe kicks, the spinning hook kicks and back kicks of TKD, the round kick of MT, spinning back fists, etc.
I am still not sure what your point is bro, sorry.
My point was that, in the heat of full contact that most people and styles end up looking like "typical KB", ie: punches and kicks and what not, thrown in combos with very little of that "shaw brothers kung fu" look to it.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kyokushin, Taekwondo, and Muay Thai in K1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvBLMRl5agg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70hbVHDLrY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyivfYgTwg0&feature=fvst

Of course it has the style in the field, but it's pretty easy to tell techniques or style from each of these fighters, granted these are three of the best fighters ever in each disipline. IMO somethings do look the same obviously but you can definetily tell the differences in style, of course, that is also the individual as well.

And of course, let's not forget San Shou;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWjh4HTiDBk

[KC Elbows]

I'm arguing a nuance, that's all.

Shaw brothers has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.

In the heat of it, the sound of a well trained muay thai guys kick hitting, and the look of it, are all recognizable. The guy who mainly does bjj's takedowns tend to have their look. Some are differences in individual moves, some are stylistic nuances to common moves, but they're all generally giveaways to what the fighter trained most.

The idea that a kung fu fighter will have none of those is self limiting, as it will prevent them from looking for martial reasons for the differences and training them full contact just like every other stylist does, imo.

My point is that this idea, that all fighting, done full contact, ends up looking exactly the same, doesn't pan out when actually viewing full contact fights, we DO see what different people trained in to some extent, not in the leads and crosses perhaps, but in their overall game and some of their body mechanics, which is why I used muay thai as an example, since their body mechanics on kicks and the clinch is so easily recognizable when contrasted with other kickers in the same venues: we will see some people doing similar clinch work, but that will not make us confuse them with someone whose most involved training is muay thai.

This said, the idea that nothing a kung fu fighter does is the same as everyone else is patently false. Most is seen somewhere else, but one's training should show through, right?

[ghostexorcist]

Have a look at this video clipo from China. Some may say that some of the stuff looks like "kickboxing", however, one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

So, the fact is that in a real fight, the moves cannot be executed cleanly, as in choreography, but the kung fu element should be recognizbable by informed onlookers.
I love the throw at 0:14.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm arguing a nuance, that's all.

Shaw brothers has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.

In the heat of it, the sound of a well trained muay thai guys kick hitting, and the look of it, are all recognizable. The guy who mainly does bjj's takedowns tend to have their look. Some are differences in individual moves, some are stylistic nuances to common moves, but they're all generally giveaways to what the fighter trained most.

The idea that a kung fu fighter will have none of those is self limiting, as it will prevent them from looking for martial reasons for the differences and training them full contact just like every other stylist does, imo.

My point is that this idea, that all fighting, done full contact, ends up looking exactly the same, doesn't pan out when actually viewing full contact fights, we DO see what different people trained in to some extent, not in the leads and crosses perhaps, but in their overall game and some of their body mechanics, which is why I used muay thai as an example, since their body mechanics on kicks and the clinch is so easily recognizable when contrasted with other kickers in the same venues: we will see some people doing similar clinch work, but that will not make us confuse them with someone whose most involved training is muay thai.

This said, the idea that nothing a kung fu fighter does is the same as everyone else is patently false. Most is seen somewhere else, but one's training should show through, right?

Ok, lets look at it this way and I think its a better analogy too:
Look at the drills for boxing, MT and such, look at their shadow boxing and equipment routines.
Now look at their fighting.
It will be the same, same movement, same stances, same force delivery, etc, etc.

Now, look at *insert TCMA here*.

Look at their forms and drills and such.
Now look at them fighting full contact EFFECTIVLY.

see what I mean?

[Hardwork108]

I love the throw at 0:14.

Me too.:)

It was a typical technique from Baji Quan, I understand. It was cleanly executed, and on top of that it did not look like kickboxing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys realize that it was Baji VS Baji , right?

[KC Elbows]

Ok, lets look at it this way and I think its a better analogy too:
Look at the drills for boxing, MT and such, look at their shadow boxing and equipment routines.
Now look at their fighting.
It will be the same, same movement, same stances, same force delivery, etc, etc.

Now, look at *insert TCMA here*.

Look at their forms and drills and such.
Now look at them fighting full contact EFFECTIVLY.

see what I mean?

I understand what you're saying, but it implies form uninformed by usage.

If they use it, if their drills are worked for usage, their shadowboxing and such informed by usage, then the disparity between how they do it in form and how they do it in use, the over stylization, tends to disappear in part from the form(in part because the form is still just a compilation without little footworks in between, etc), and the over stylization dissapears completely in shadowboxing and useful live drills.

BUT, when fighting, they will still likely be recognizable to someone who really is familiar with their fighting method(vs. form) as a fighter coming from that background, just like every other type of fighter tends to give cues of their background.

It's not that they should look like a Shaw brothers film, ridiculous numbers of moves choreographed for entertainment, just as mma fights don't end up looking much like movie renditions of such, slightly less ridiculous numbers of moves strung together for entertainment, just that they should look like they trained what they do, not what a muay thai fighter or a karate fighter or whatever specifically focuses on that is distinguishable as muay thai, or karate, or whatever.

[Hardwork108]

You guys realize that it was Baji VS Baji , right?

Of course we do, and I understand where you are going with this, but we live in a world that even some "kung fu" guys fighting each other may turn out to look like pure kickboxing, without any kung fu techniques, rooting/stances, strategies, etc. apparent.

So, even for a kung fu vs kung fu fight, this clip is a relative rarity.

[KC Elbows]

You guys realize that it was Baji VS Baji , right?

Clearly only the winner did real baji.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand what you're saying, but it implies form uninformed by usage.

If they use it, if their drills are worked for usage, their shadowboxing and such informed by usage, then the disparity between how they do it in form and how they do it in use, the over stylization, tends to disappear in part from the form(in part because the form is still just a compilation without little footworks in between, etc), and the over stylization dissapears completely in shadowboxing and useful live drills.

BUT, when fighting, they will still likely be recognizable to someone who really is familiar with their fighting method(vs. form) as a fighter coming from that background, just like every other type of fighter tends to give cues of their background.

It's not that they should look like a Shaw brothers film, ridiculous numbers of moves choreographed for entertainment, just as mma fights don't end up looking much like movie renditions of such, slightly less ridiculous numbers of moves strung together for entertainment, just that they should look like they trained what they do, not what a muay thai fighter or a karate fighter or whatever specifically focuses on that is distinguishable as muay thai, or karate, or whatever.

I know what you are saying and agree to a point, but lets be honest here, when was the last time you saw a Taiji guy ( for example) fight like he was doing taiji?
It was more like KB with a "dash" of Taiji in the mix.
I am not arguing the principles aren't there, that is why I said , originally, "...look like hung fu, whatever that means"..
Fact is, take any kung fu style and train it for ful contact and you will still see the flavour there, perhaps even more, but it won't look like the "text book" look of that style.

[bawang]

u guys minds are permanently tainted by hong kong movies

[MightyB]

Have a look at this video clipo from China. Some may say that some of the stuff looks like "kickboxing", however, one can see Baji/kung fu techniques also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

So, the fact is that in a real fight, the moves cannot be executed cleanly, as in choreography, but the kung fu element should be recognizbable by informed onlookers.

Now that guy had the "fu".

[KC Elbows]

I know what you are saying and agree to a point, but lets be honest here, when was the last time you saw a Taiji guy ( for example) fight like he was doing taiji?
It was more like KB with a "dash" of Taiji in the mix.
I am not arguing the principles aren't there, that is why I said , originally, "...look like hung fu, whatever that means"..
Fact is, take any kung fu style and train it for ful contact and you will still see the flavour there, perhaps even more, but it won't look like the "text book" look of that style.

That's because the "textbook" look of taiji has virtually no kicks, despite the style having kicks, and the "textbook" look of taiji has no, as Bawang puts it, punch to face, despite taiji having plenty of face rugbying.

That has to do with bad textbooks. Just because Texas textbooks say Columbus was loved by the Indians for bringing them Jesus, glass beads, tobacco, and hard liquor, doesn't mean a scholar of that period in history can't know differently.

People do three kicks and four strikes in a form with tons of throws, they fall into the trap of mostly trying to work those throws and neglecting those three kicks and four strikes, thinking that it occurs once in 108 moves, how important could it be?

They train primarily push hands or chi sao without moving into sparring, so they never see what their long range needs to be to get into their close range to actually use that close range they've been focussing on, and, not training that, they never see how important that outside is to getting any sort of moment of bridge.

They train bridge in a way that bridge is something that is always there, and don't take it past there to the point where they see that the bridge is a very brief time that requires ruthless capitalizing on it if it is to be used at all, and they never see the use of ruthless capitalizing.

They aren't doing good textbook anything.

A taiji guy who isn't kicking isn't doing taiji. A taiji guy who is reaching for bridges when they aren't there isn't doing taiji. But, if they grow past this, yes, much of what they do is in all sorts of arts, but they will still tend towards certain approaches and focusses that should scream taiji.

The styles that tend to train full contact, boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, sambo, wrestling, also tend to be recognizable as what they are. The kung fu stylists who do not train kung fu full contact, then train something full contact, look like what they trained full contact, and use a move or two from their kung fu, but not a lot, which is natural, because odds are against them having been trained to use the style comprehensively full contact, not because there is no distinguishing factors.

What I'm saying is that kung fu should be trained full contact as part of understanding it, that that knowledge should often trump so-called textbooks, and that, when this is done, it will resemble what it is while having much in common with everyone else, but pretty clearly recognizable as what it is. To judge off of a current situation, where most guys fighting full contact who come from kung fu backgrounds had no comprehensive means of training those backgrounds when they were training kung fu, but instead have comprehensive teaching from an informed background in another style, and are having to make up lost time on the kung fu, are stuck deciphering their kungfu system on their own, unless they take their former teaching on its word despite the lack of a culture of resistance in that training time.

If the argument rightly falls on most kung fu training not being informed enough by actual practice, then one cannot then claim to know what one has trained in the same way one knows a style they trained with resistance until one does a tremendous amount of their own research and testing, which almost no one does or wants to, but, if one doesn't, one is not likely to have a comprehensive knowledge of any sort on what in that style actually is useful, only what they happened, despite the limitations of the training culture in that school, to find that was useful.

To make a fighter who comprehensively fights with a kung fu style, I'm sure we agree, requires training that ingrains the usage, which is often lacking. Since it is lacking, we can't well say what it would look like until that culture changes completely. Since the people whose thoughts are useful to my training, including you, seem to largely agree on THAT issue, are also some of the best providers of content here and provide the most respected opinions, it seems likely that that culture is changing, and THEN we may see what a kung fu fighter, who will also undoubtedly be influenced, like most fighters, by other styles, will look like.

I need to learn proper typing. I could be looking up porn while I do this.:D

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8mc_pvhU9s

This looks like a distinctive Buk Sing flavor to me.

These guys don't look like they're from a Muay Thai/Kickboxing, I would know, I do Muay Thai. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8mc_pvhU9s

This looks like a distinctive Buk Sing flavor to me.

These guys don't look like they're from a Muay Thai/Kickboxing, I would know, I do Muay Thai. ;)

Dude, that looked like typical KB from a couple of less experienced fighters.
Sorry.

[KC Elbows]

Case in point. More full contact training from the get go, and would they be reaching for punches that were out of range so often? Probably not. And this is not me disparaging their training, but stating that, due to the state of the arts before, a lot of kung fu folks train for fights when they decide to enter the ring, not when they start training, so they're working against a training lifetime of misconceptions based on the bulk of their training experience.

[bawang]

That's because the "textbook" look of taiji has virtually no kicks, despite the style having kicks, and the "textbook" look of taiji has no, as Bawang puts it, punch to face, despite taiji having plenty of face rugbying.

this is the self fulfilling prophecy. u want to be popular and make money so u give a false image. people that join ur kung fu are in love with that false image andnot the real kung fu. so your new students start to change and corrupt your style and the facade becomes the reality


peoples idea of "kung fu fighting" is 1. a weird awkward fighting stance, like wong fei hong movie 2. chambering the fist 3. making 300 bridges a second 4. fast and snappy

[KC Elbows]

Actual story from the last class I ran. I was showing a move in which one arm clears for the other to strike, and everyone is stylizing the clear and missing the point. I break in, telling them, "You're trying to do a dramatic clear when it HAS to be sly, then you're doing a noncomittal strike. You want to be good at clearing his arm, I want you to be good at hitting him in the face. You kids today have messed up priorities. You need to clear the arm, yeah, so that you can hurt him, send him away, and then brag about how peaceful your taiji is."

I'm giving them clear wude, why don't they understand?:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actual story from the last class I ran. I was showing a move in which one arm clears for the other to strike, and everyone is stylizing the clear and missing the point. I break in, telling them, "You're trying to do a dramatic clear when it HAS to be sly, then you're doing a noncomittal strike. You want to be good at clearing his arm, I want you to be good at hitting him in the face. You kids today have messed up priorities. You need to clear the arm, yeah, so that you can hurt him, send him away, and then brag about how peaceful your taiji is."

I'm giving them clear wude, why don't they understand?:D

Hit them with it, they'll understand.

[KC Elbows]

Hit them with it, they'll understand.

It's funny, because it's a bread and butter move for me, so they face it alot. It's just got some subtlety to the clear that people want to interpret as being bigger than it is, more than it is, and cooler looking than it is.

They simply don't understand that the hitting in the face is the cool looking part, because they like the subtle part and want everyone to see how cool the subtle part is, making it not subtle.

However, they figure it out once they hit someone else with it.:D

[David Jamieson]

my kung fu style doesn't use much in the way of kicking.

does that just make me a throw/punch/elbower? is that kung fu if i can use it appropriately?

what is that anyway?

who actually thinks that making goofy squealy sounds is actually required for fighting?

also performing a set in front of your opponent while waiting to get teh next flurry of stuff happening.

who thinks fighting is like that? I mean really.
Let's try not to heavily indulge those who are obviously thoroughly disconnected from reality on either end of the spectrum.

[bawang]

im proud of u mang. im crying in rel life. u have teh wude.
a good way to putting the indea in ur students is take out the gracefulness flow from your forms. then ur taking away the gay. i do my postures "awkwardly" on purpose it look just like when i hit bags.

[KC Elbows]

In fairnes, I'm constantly tempted to make them hold horse stance doing chambered punches while shouting "BE-TRONG-BE-TRONG".

This will have to wait until I have an island base and a fake bear claw hand.

[bawang]

when kung fu is making haymakers look graceful something is wrong

[Violent Designs]

Dude, that looked like typical KB from a couple of less experienced fighters.
Sorry.

No, it doesn't, there is a distinct flavor to it, that is not Muay Thai or Karate or standard kickboxing...

Even some of the techniques used is strictly CLF techniques.

They are not that experienced, yes. But a beginner Thai boxer does not look like that either.

Yes most of the stuff overlaps but... I'm sorry, there is a unique flavor there in body movement, in technique, etc. I am NOT referring to the bad habits in the fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, it doesn't, there is a distinct flavor to it, that is not Muay Thai or Karate or standard kickboxing...

Even some of the techniques used is strictly CLF techniques.

If you say so.

[Violent Designs]

If you say so.

LOL it's fine if you disagree with me, I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt hahahaha.

CLF pretty much very closely resembles classical boxing/kickboxing style of movement anyway.

Put on boxing gloves and well... yes, it *SHOULD* look mostly like "kickboxing," if it doesn't something is wrong there.

I guess in that regard, you are right. :o

What I am trying to say is, compared to a guy who ONLY does MuayThai, or normal Kickboxing, that is at the same level as those guys, they have subtle differences in movement, technique, and attacks that I would say is unique.

Are these differences better or worse? I'm not saying that at all... but just. there are subtle, very minute things that are a little unique.... that's all I'm saying.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL it's fine if you disagree with me, I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt hahahaha.

CLF pretty much very closely resembles classical boxing/kickboxing style of movement anyway.

Put on boxing gloves and well... yes, it *SHOULD* look mostly like "kickboxing," if it doesn't something is wrong there.

I guess in that regard, you are right. :o

It was not meant in a rude way, truly.
I don't know anything about CLF other than what I have seen on youtube and such but to me, yes, it kind of looks like "wild swinging kickboxing" anyway ;)
See, most people fail to realise HOW much gloves change the program and how those "fast and snappy" moves that MAY work in a bare handed situation will NOT work with gloves.
Truth be said I have YET to see any of those "fast and snappy kenpo-like" stuff work even bare knuckles.

[SPJ]

at the end of day

whatever works for who ever wins.

kung fu or not

kickboxing or not.

[KC Elbows]

Best self defense story EVER:

My friends dad was approached by an angry driver with with a baseball bat. His response? "You need a baseball bat to take on an old fat guy?"

It could have ended badly, but the guy was so verbally handled that he went back to his car and left.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

peoples idea of "kung fu fighting" is 1. a weird awkward fighting stance, like wong fei hong movie 2. chambering the fist 3. making 300 bridges a second 4. fast and snappy

Right. Well you're even a bigger forum troll than I am, but basically, yeah.

If you're going to be doing cool stances and flowery stuff in training, but you're not actually going to fight like that, then why are you training like that? Why? Is it helping you to fight better? Or is it just something that "looks cool" like a ricer who puts a big muffler on his car without actually changing any of the internals or piping so that it "looks cool" but doesn't actually add any power or useful performance gains?

It just seems like if you're training with flowery stuff, you shouldn't be fighting with kickboxing.

And if you're fighting with kickboxing, then train that way as well so you'll be even better at fighting with it.

Kung fu people have all these cool ass moves, but when they fight, it's jab, cross, hook, roundhouse kick. What happened to your bong saos and iron bridges and 5 animal fist techniques? They have all these trapping combos, open hand blocks, and deflections, but when they fight, they shell up like boxers to defend against attacks. They stand flat footed in training for "solid root" yet they bounce around when fighting.

Sense. It makes none.

I get if all that flowery stuff is "fun" and you enjoy doing it. Then by all means, continue to do it. But if someone's goal is to learn how to fight, they should learn fighting arts.

Otherwise, it's like practicing rock music when your goal is to perform at a classical music concert. It's really not going to help you any.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

LOL it's fine if you disagree with me, I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt hahahaha.

CLF pretty much very closely resembles classical boxing/kickboxing style of movement anyway.

Put on boxing gloves and well... yes, it *SHOULD* look mostly like "kickboxing," if it doesn't something is wrong there.

I guess in that regard, you are right. :o

What I am trying to say is, compared to a guy who ONLY does MuayThai, or normal Kickboxing, that is at the same level as those guys, they have subtle differences in movement, technique, and attacks that I would say is unique.

Are these differences better or worse? I'm not saying that at all... but just. there are subtle, very minute things that are a little unique.... that's all I'm saying.

One point I would like to make is the distinct styles of kickboxing as well. Muay Thai done by the Thais and Muay Thai by the Dutch are distinct and you can usually tell the difference. Amercian kickboxing, especially the old PKA style, is distinct because you can see it's roots from point style Karate, San Shou done from a CMA base has a distinct side kick and reeps, as well as other things I'm sure I'm forgetting, that you can distinguish from other kickboxing styles.

[Violent Designs]

One point I would like to make is the distinct styles of kickboxing as well. Muay Thai done by the Thais and Muay Thai by the Dutch are distinct and you can usually tell the difference. Amercian kickboxing, especially the old PKA style, is distinct because you can see it's roots from point style Karate, San Shou done from a CMA base has a distinct side kick and reeps, as well as other things I'm sure I'm forgetting, that you can distinguish from other kickboxing styles.

Things like the forward momentum by putting more weight up front, more usage of the hips to strike punches, and of course using gwa, sau, and charp chui (charp chui with gloves looks just like any other punch).

Look, maybe this way is better.

Look at a "traditional" Thai boxer. Even better, a heavy clincher like Diesel Noi. Perfect. Look at the way he punches and kicks .... well his kicks are average, his punches ****ing SUCK. Horrible, little arm punches, not much hip rotation or torque. Nothing like boxing.

You compare this to somebody who only practices Buk Sing CLF, that person will have a very distinct flavor in comparison, he will throw less kicks than MT, try to avoid clinching and stay in punching range and try to dominate with a lot of heavy punches, swinging punches, and generally being very aggressive. Because they fight with the power side forward and rely a lot of that lead hand charp chui you can see it in the sparring/fighting videos. Using the lead hand and actually trying to cause heavy damage as opposed to only using it like a jab, is a different strategy/techniques.

Now let's look at something, say Dutch Muay Thai. You got a guy like Ramon Dekkers going into Thailand, he beat up a lot of people but he was weaker in the kicks, weaker in the clinch than many fighters. He made up for that by bringing in that boxing-inspired PACE from Europe many Thai fighters were not used to, also the ridiculous punching power, speed, and wicked combinations.

You got a guy like Yodsaenklai, who throws the same heavy kicks over and over again to wear you out, who would eat 3 strikes to throw a really ****ing hard one back at you. This is a different style, a different school of thought. Just within Muay Thai, there are varying degrees of differences, some as obvious as night and day!!!

[SAAMAG]

A while back I saw a video of some Mantis style dude sparring. It looked like kick boxing. There wasn't a single mantis-looking technique in there.

But apply this to any style. People often complain that when people of any style spar it often ends up looking like kick boxing. So can they still call it "[whatever] style kung fu"?

Or is it only "[whatever] style kung fu" if it is actually using techniques from that style?

I can just hear the replies of "oh well they were using PRINCIPLES from [whatever] style even if it looked like kick boxing."

Discuss.

Natural human movement resembles kickboxing. That's why when people train in style a, but never fight, it looks likes kickboxing when they do fight--because the body's natural movement comes out.

Trying to emulate an animal's movement isn't natural to the human body because that's not the way the human body works. Moving the way a human body moves is most effective because you're maximizing your natural biomechanics.

[Hardwork108]

Natural human movement resembles kickboxing. That's why when people train in style a, but never fight, it looks likes kickboxing when they do fight--because the body's natural movement comes out.
Natural body movement is not all it is cracked up to be. Well, I don't mean it exactly that way, but what I mean is that it is not the beginning and the end of it all.

I mean Tiger clawing [with conditioned claws) someone's throat may not be a "natural" movement, but once mastered will give you the ups when fighting someone who is not expecting it.

Hammer fisting someone on the face is not a usual "natural" response, but if you study kung fu system such as Chow Gar, then you will see the hidden advantages that such techniques contain. It is also worth noting that using the hammer fist blow in Chow Gar will require you to follow that style's (none-kickboxing) rooting principles, to get maximum power.

So, already we are talking about two techniques that do not automatically remind one of typical kickboxing techniques.


However, they need to be trained authentically, otherwise they will just be worthless "cosmetic" techniques, such as the ones one sees in the many Mcdojos.


Trying to emulate an animal's movement isn't natural to the human body because that's not the way the human body works. Moving the way a human body moves is most effective because you're maximizing your natural biomechanics.

Yet, generations of kung fu (not Mcdojo) MASTERS, from many different styles have developed "animal" techniques. IMHO, those martial artists who do not give credence to this approach, should take the time and research them further, as generalizing and saying or implying that these techniques are useless or none functional, can be deemed as closed minded, by those who know better.

It is also worth noting that the animal styles are not just made up of fighting techniques but also of development methodologies, based on the essence of the animal in question, which also carries over in the way (including the mindset) the techniques are executed.

[Dragonzbane76]

Hammer fisting someone on the face is not a usual "natural" response

not natural? it's probably one of the most natural, he!l look at apes fight, primal and shear power no special tech., just instictual. Watch some cage fights they go to the ground usually one guy will get side control and start hammerfisting away. Used all the time in verious styles and backgrounds.

[Hardwork108]

not natural? it's probably one of the most natural, he!l

Not using good technique, it ain't!



look at apes fight, primal and shear power no special tech., just instictual.
I know that there is a clever comeback that I could bounce off that sentence, but I am going to resist.:D


Watch some cage fights they go to the ground usually one guy will get side control and start hammerfisting away. Used all the time in verious styles and backgrounds.

It may be natural when you are sitting on top of a downed opponent, but I have rarely seen it in stand up fighting, and whenever used, it is done badly. TCMAs like Chow Gar, have taken such strikes to a level that is unimaginable by people who have not been exposed to it.

[KC Elbows]

Natural human fighting is done with a rock, from behind, in a quick, sharp, fashion, followed by stealing the opponent's stuff. If this is what kickboxing looks like, okay, I'm clearly watching the wrong events.

[bawang]

message for kung fu ppls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uk_8xArVNQ

[Dragonzbane76]

have taken such strikes to a level that is unimaginable by people who have not been exposed to it.

haha the "deadly" in action. ;)