Kulo Wing Chun 22 Set

[imperialtaichi]

For those of you interested in seeing the Kulo Wing Chun 22 form, this is the complete set, from Guangzhou Master Leung Wun Zi's line.

Done in the proper "flavor":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Done slowly for easy following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

Cheers,
John

[t_niehoff]

Very nice, thanks for sharing. :)

[kung fu fighter]

Hey John,

Great demo, thanks for sharing! I notice the 22 point also keep their feet converging, and torques from the kwa instead of from the feet.

[Violent Designs]

this is totally separate from the Yip Man stuff right?

[Faruq]

For those of you interested in seeing the Kulo Wing Chun 22 form, this is the complete set, from Guangzhou Master Leung Wun Zi's line.

Done in the proper "flavor":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Done slowly for easy following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

Cheers,
John


Interesting...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

For those of you interested in seeing the Kulo Wing Chun 22 form, this is the complete set, from Guangzhou Master Leung Wun Zi's line.

Done in the proper "flavor":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Done slowly for easy following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

Cheers,
John

Thanks, I enjoyed those very much! Tasty flavour too.

Your "Large Twirling Hands" is very very similar to an element of the 3rd section of my first form. The Yip Man version I originally learned had a section that went "Tan/Gan/Tan/Huen/Middle Gate Palm Strike"; the version I do now has a "high Tan/low bong/Gan/high palm strike" which is executed similarly to large twirling hands.

[k gledhill]

Very nice, thanks for sharing. :)

what did you think was nice about it ?

[Runlikehell]

Thanks for this. It's great to see the full set of movements.

[chusauli]

Dr. Fung,

Thank you for your generous contribution.

We of Gu Lao lineage are too few! I think your open posting reflects a generous nature!

Best wishes,

[t_niehoff]

what did you think was nice about it ?

I think it's great that many of the non-Yip Man branches of WCK, like Gu lao 22 point, are finally being exposed to the public. This is important since it provides a more comprehensive view of the art.

[LoneTiger108]

I think it's great that many of the non-Yip Man branches of WCK, like Gu lao 22 point, are finally being exposed to the public. This is important since it provides a more comprehensive view of the art.

A more comprehensive view? :confused:

Having sets of sansau, whether they can be traced directly to Leung Jan or not, doesn't make WCK more comprehensive, just easier to learn for basic self defence purposes imho and definitely easier to teach!

It is great to see though, I preferred the second clip. But all this needs to be followed up with the 40 point methods ;):D

[kung fu fighter]

For those of you interested in seeing the Kulo Wing Chun 22 form, this is the complete set, from Guangzhou Master Leung Wun Zi's line.

Done in the proper "flavor":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Cheers,
John

Hi John,

I really enjoyed the clip, Do you have any footage of yourself or Master Leung Demonstrating the applications or two-man san sik drills that you can post?

[t_niehoff]

A more comprehensive view? :confused:


Yes.



Having sets of sansau, whether they can be traced directly to Leung Jan or not, doesn't make WCK more comprehensive, just easier to learn for basic self defence purposes imho and definitely easier to teach!


No. WCK is WCK. A san sao format of teaching isn't "easier to learn for basic self-defense" -- it is just a different curriculum for WCK.

The reason I said a more comprehensive view is that by seeing different ways of teaching the same thing (WCK) -- comparing different texts for the same subject as it were -- we may help us see things from a different perspective and give us a fuller picture.



It is great to see though, I preferred the second clip. But all this needs to be followed up with the 40 point methods ;):D

Well, I know that I won't be uploading it. :)

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I believe WCK is WCK, while the expression of it may differ in different lineages, put the politics aside we all share very common roots. If we can all work together, we can take WCK collectively to new high grounds.

Cheers,
John

[LoneTiger108]

WCK is WCK. A san sao format of teaching isn't "easier to learn for basic self-defense" -- it is just a different curriculum for WCK.

The reason I said a more comprehensive view is that by seeing different ways of teaching the same thing (WCK) -- comparing different texts for the same subject as it were -- we may help us see things from a different perspective and give us a fuller picture.

That does make sense, but I guess you would say that about a curriculum you're familiar with. For me personally, a sansau curriculum is great if it's supplemented with a good foundation, which I've found only within the Lee Shing WCK curriculum.

Standing on it's own any sansau or personal sets are a preservation thing, and that's cool, but I also like to think my chun develops and changes every year.


I believe WCK is WCK, while the expression of it may differ in different lineages, put the politics aside we all share very common roots. If we can all work together, we can take WCK collectively to new high grounds.

I have been saying things like this for years, so I think its great that we are on the same journey. I've always got the feeling though that people want me to listen and train like they do without any return! And I too believe I'm holding onto something special (as most of us here do!)

What you ask for is almost impossible nowadays, but I do wish you all the luck in the world with your promotions.

[t_niehoff]

That does make sense, but I guess you would say that about a curriculum you're familiar with. For me personally, a sansau curriculum is great if it's supplemented with a good foundation, which I've found only within the Lee Shing WCK curriculum.


It's all WCK, and WCK is WCK. Curriculum are not WCK -- they are someone's approach to teaching WCK. WCK is a skill. The curriculum impart the various aspects you need to perform that skill.

A san sao curriculum is just as good a foundation as any other traditional curriculum. In a sense, they're all equally bad.

As far as Lee Shing's curriculum providing a "good foundation" -- you're the guy who thinks stepping away from an opponent is good WCK, right?



Standing on it's own any sansau or personal sets are a preservation thing, and that's cool, but I also like to think my chun develops and changes every year.


The curriculum isn't the art (WCK). How you teach someone to ride a bike isn't riding the bike.

[LoneTiger108]

ItAs far as Lee Shing's curriculum providing a "good foundation" -- you're the guy who thinks stepping away from an opponent is good WCK, right?

Yes I am. And proud to know that retreating IS a part of WCK.

I tell you what, see how long it takes your wife/girlfriend/daughter to learn how to stand her ground against a 6ft 5, 20 stone attacker and then see how long it takes her to learn how to avoid them completely by retreating.

I know what strategy I would employ... :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

Yes I am. And proud to know that retreating IS a part of WCK.

I tell you what, see how long it takes your wife/girlfriend/daughter to learn how to stand her ground against a 6ft 5, 20 stone attacker and then see how long it takes her to learn how to avoid them completely by retreating.

I know what strategy I would employ... :rolleyes:

Yes, I know what strategy you would employ -- and why you would be easily beaten.

WCK's method is not to run away, but to engage, to crowd your opponent, to clinch as our defense (so that they can't use their longer reach) and use that to bring in our offense.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, I know what strategy you would employ -- and why you would be easily beaten.

WCK's method is not to run away, but to engage, to crowd your opponent, to clinch as our defense (so that they can't use their longer reach) and use that to bring in our offense.

Thank you so much for writing this. Now I know for sure you have no clue about real combat. ALL Armies teach retrograde (retreating) movements. Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War by Sun Tzu - Section 10 - Terrain:

"7. In a position of this sort, even though the enemy should offer us an attractive bait, it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat, thus enticing the enemy in his turn; then, when part of his army has come out, we may deliver our attack with advantage. "


"24. The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."

Military Academies across the globe teach this in large and individual combat.

LoneTiger108's example of a woman standing toe to toe is spot on. Why do you think they have weight divisions in combat "sports"? ;)
You use boxers as example of fighting sometimes. Well, boxers teach retreating: http://www.ehow.com/list_6731465_basic-boxing-footwork-exercises.html
In and out training:
http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-strategies/boxing-tactics/108-basic-boxing-footwork-strategy

Here's a quote from http://www.myboxingcoach.com/footwork-the-pivot/:
"You’re taking on a boxer who’s supremely talented on the retreat but doesn’t offer the same threat on the front foot. You can attempt to chase your opponent down, cutting off the ring, but you are aware that by doing this you’ll be fighting to your opponent’s strength. . . . ."
I studied boxing at Gleason's when it was near the Garden. My first lesson reminded me of the Wing Chun advancing and retreating footwork.
You post here like you're so knowledgeable but many of your posts on combat and Wing Chun prove otherwise.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you so much for writing this. Now I know for sure you have no clue about real combat. ALL Armies teach retrograde (retreating) movements. Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War by Sun Tzu - Section 10 - Terrain:

"7. In a position of this sort, even though the enemy should offer us an attractive bait, it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat, thus enticing the enemy in his turn; then, when part of his army has come out, we may deliver our attack with advantage. "


"24. The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."

Military Academies across the globe teach this in large and individual combat.


Phil, WCK isn't about warfare but a specific approach to individual fighting (and not on a battlefield).



LoneTiger108's example of a woman standing toe to toe is spot on. Why do you think they have weight divisions in combat "sports"? ;)


No, it's not spot on, it is a stupid illustration. So is your weight division point. Of course size and strength matter. They matter in the ring and they matter in the str33t. They are inherent advantages.

But WCK isn't whatever you want it to be. It is a certain, specific approach to fighting that comes down to us from the red boats -- wing chun kuen is the opera singers' fist. THEIR approach is to control the opponent while striking him. Can a smaller person use that approach? Sure. In judo you are grappling (in a clinch), don't they refer to the smaller person overcoming the larger person? How? By using their strength against them -- which comes in large part by breaking their structure.

Even if your approach is to fight inside, can you make the tactical decision to run from a fight? Sure. But if you do have to fight, a smaller person isn't going to have much chance by opening the space since then s/he will be giving the larger opponent (with longer reach) the room to make full use of his advantage (reach).



You use boxers as example of fighting sometimes. Well, boxers teach retreating: http://www.ehow.com/list_6731465_basic-boxing-footwork-exercises.html
In and out training:
http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-strategies/boxing-tactics/108-basic-boxing-footwork-strategy
Here's a quote from http://www.myboxingcoach.com/footwork-the-pivot/:
"You’re taking on a boxer who’s supremely talented on the retreat but doesn’t offer the same threat on the front foot. You can attempt to chase your opponent down, cutting off the ring, but you are aware that by doing this you’ll be fighting to your opponent’s strength. . . . ."


Boxing's method is not WCK's method. Boxing is a free-movement method of fighting, and in free-movement (when not attached) what boxers do makes great sense. It doesn't make great sense when you are attached (WCK's method).



I studied boxing at Gleason's when it was near the Garden. My first lesson reminded me of the Wing Chun advancing and retreating footwork.
You post here like you're so knowledgeable but many of your posts on combat and Wing Chun prove otherwise.

WTF is "combat"? I'm not talking about "combat" but about fighting. WCK's method of fighting is to control your opponent while striking him. You can't control him while retreating.

And p.s., WCK's operative range, the range where its tools work, is when we can touch the opponent's body with our hand. Outside of that range, our tools break down and don't function (which is why the WCK kickboxers can't use WCK movement as they are too far away). Chi sao "range" is WCK's operative range.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, WCK isn't about warfare but a specific approach to individual fighting (and not on a battlefield).



No, it's not spot on, it is a stupid illustration. So is your weight division point. Of course size and strength matter. They matter in the ring and they matter in the str33t. They are inherent advantages.

But WCK isn't whatever you want it to be. It is a certain, specific approach to fighting that comes down to us from the red boats -- wing chun kuen is the opera singers' fist. THEIR approach is to control the opponent while striking him. Can a smaller person use that approach? Sure. In judo you are grappling (in a clinch), don't they refer to the smaller person overcoming the larger person? How? By using their strength against them -- which comes in large part by breaking their structure.

Even if your approach is to fight inside, can you make the tactical decision to run from a fight? Sure. But if you do have to fight, a smaller person isn't going to have much chance by opening the space since then s/he will be giving the larger opponent (with longer reach) the room to make full use of his advantage (reach).



Boxing's method is not WCK's method. Boxing is a free-movement method of fighting, and in free-movement (when not attached) what boxers do makes great sense. It doesn't make great sense when you are attached (WCK's method).



WTF is "combat"? I'm not talking about "combat" but about fighting. WCK's method of fighting is to control your opponent while striking him. You can't control him while retreating.

And p.s., WCK's operative range, the range where its tools work, is when we can touch the opponent's body with our hand. Outside of that range, our tools break down and don't function (which is why the WCK kickboxers can't use WCK movement as they are too far away). Chi sao "range" is WCK's operative range.

Such a weak response for a counselor. Look up the definition for combat.
Here, I'll help you.
http://www.answers.com/topic/combat

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combat

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unarmed

[jesper]

Thank you so much for writing this. Now I know for sure you have no clue about real combat. ALL Armies teach retrograde (retreating) movements. Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War by Sun Tzu - Section 10 - Terrain:

"7. In a position of this sort, even though the enemy should offer us an attractive bait, it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat, thus enticing the enemy in his turn; then, when part of his army has come out, we may deliver our attack with advantage. "


"24. The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."

Military Academies across the globe teach this in large and individual combat.

LoneTiger108's example of a woman standing toe to toe is spot on. Why do you think they have weight divisions in combat "sports"? ;)
You use boxers as example of fighting sometimes. Well, boxers teach retreating: http://www.ehow.com/list_6731465_basic-boxing-footwork-exercises.html
In and out training:
http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-strategies/boxing-tactics/108-basic-boxing-footwork-strategy
Here's a quote from http://www.myboxingcoach.com/footwork-the-pivot/:
"You’re taking on a boxer who’s supremely talented on the retreat but doesn’t offer the same threat on the front foot. You can attempt to chase your opponent down, cutting off the ring, but you are aware that by doing this you’ll be fighting to your opponent’s strength. . . . ."
I studied boxing at Gleason's when it was near the Garden. My first lesson reminded me of the Wing Chun advancing and retreating footwork.
You post here like you're so knowledgeable but many of your posts on combat and Wing Chun prove otherwise.

Note that sun Tzu talks about retreating before being engaged in combat, not during.

As for comparing boxers and WCK, just remember we fight under different premises so naturally our chosen tactics will be different aswell

[Phil Redmond]

Note that sun Tzu talks about retreating before being engaged in combat, not during.

As for comparing boxers and WCK, just remember we fight under different premises so naturally our chosen tactics will be different aswell
I only pointed to a few examples of what Sun Tzu said. It's good that you're analyzing what I wrote. People like you are going to keep us older guard on our toes. Thank you.
In fighting you sometimes you have to move offline/offside/retreat. It's the nature of the beast. Of course to pursue the attack is a better strategy, but s**t happens in a real fight.

[Phil Redmond]

@jesper forgive me for presuming that you're younger that me. . . lol

[Vajramusti]

All sorts of armies taught fighting while retreating for group action and individual fighting as well.
Mongols, Samurai, Persians etc...
the Parthians in Persia developed the equivalent of a "parting shot" from horse back.
You can entice a person in and then unload .
In boxing Gene Tunney did it and so did the maestro Sugar Ray Robinson.
In wing chun you can superficially appear to step back but hit forward. It does require balanced footwork.

joy

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, there is no right way or wrong ways. A lot depends on the personal experiences of the teacher and the teacher's teacher on what worked for them.

I believe where to step to is incidental; we just want to move to an advantageous position (also a Tsun Tzu thing), while CONTINUING to attack, keeping the pressure on the opponent both physically and psychologically. In a real fight you either win or get beaten within seconds, unlike competing in a ring or cage. Of course, if one can disengage and run safely, it would be even better as you never know if the attack is carrying a gun, knives, or surrounded by his 10 of his cousins.

Cheers,
John

[Phil Redmond]

In my opinion, there is no right way or wrong ways. A lot depends on the personal experiences of the teacher and the teacher's teacher on what worked for them.

I believe where to step to is incidental; we just want to move to an advantageous position (also a Tsun Tzu thing), while CONTINUING to attack, keeping the pressure on the opponent both physically and psychologically. In a real fight you either win or get beaten within seconds, unlike competing in a ring or cage. Of course, if one can disengage and run safely, it would be even better as you never know if the attack is carrying a gun, knives, or surrounded by his 10 of his cousins.

Cheers,
John
You, Joy, and many others got it. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

All sorts of armies taught fighting while retreating for group action and individual fighting as well.
Mongols, Samurai, Persians etc...
the Parthians in Persia developed the equivalent of a "parting shot" from horse back.
You can entice a person in and then unload .
In boxing Gene Tunney did it and so did the maestro Sugar Ray Robinson.
In wing chun you can superficially appear to step back but hit forward. It does require balanced footwork.

joy
Your knowledge and experience is enlightening.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, WCK isn't about warfare but a specific approach to individual fighting (and not on a battlefield). . . .
Thanks for another affirmation that you have no clue about real fighting. Mushasi in the book of 5 Rings doesn't differentiate between individual or mass warfare combat. Combat is combat. But since you've done neither you're not expert enough to teach on the subject. Having been trained in combat and involved in both unit combat and individual combat and close range knife fighting combat I can tell you have no clue. I see you as an internet warrior. Good luck with that....lol

[jesper]

@jesper forgive me for presuming that you're younger that me. . . lol

Im 42 and been a soldier since I was 18 and done WT on and off since I was 15. dunno about you

[LoneTiger108]

LoneTiger108's example of a woman standing toe to toe is spot on. Why do you think they have weight divisions in combat "sports"? ;)

I'm so glad you understood where I was coming from, and by the looks of other posts I think they do too! ;) Thing is, I know I ramble a lot and can be wrong about some things, but I do admit it and try my best to re-learn if I think the knowledge will be beneficial.

It's a shame to see others who seem to refuse to listen to anyone about anything that sits outside their nice tidy box where they have stored, what they belive to be, 'correct' or 'proper' Wing Chun.

[k gledhill]

We move back and at angles as we do so, not straight back and forth with a lead leg...
It comes from knife tactics and making a move relative to the attacking side from the opponent, left or right side ?
seung ma toi ma drills use angling 45 degrees to the side as we counter strike, this is to maintain our striking distance as the opponent steals ours, we recover and strike, pak sao etc...
Our drilling also involves movement away from the partner to develop their entry to us as we move from a drilling facing position to a side, randomly. They stay with us as we go striking at angles to our movement, we can suddenly shift laterally to gain the advantage of too much force in the attempt to follow us, leaving the partner easily countered because they could not control their own body-weight momentum.

example:
with no attempts to block allow the partner to punch you in the chest with the force they would use as vt strike to ko you... enough to move you backwards, if they pass that test move on to the next...
then you move towards them 3-4 inches as they punch you again from the same spot, their punch no longer has the same distance to generate 'sufficient' force to stop/ko you. they will more than likely push themselves backwards as they try to punch you...

Then try to punch as you move back and at angles to them, with sudden forward movement added and you see the nature of the drills involving no contact at all, but making angles, facing and staying with an opponent as fighting, as they come we stay, but at what distance and angle do we counter attack, they retreat, but sideways ducking, backwards upright, along a wall...

We use spatial awareness for distance and the openings arm movement in space gives us, relative to our striking lines and angles, tactically.

All from no contact as chi-sao, chi-sao is just the precursor to the sparring, it gives the time to be in a mutual exchange of stepping in with a tan as a 'role' playing exchange, attack and counter. To develop in close quarters (later more space and time to react) reactions to tan entry from right or left, an opponent who moves away from us, or comes at us directly with a leading arm ? or not. I try to make the students see the face off as a protractor with angles , we shift along the flat side relative to the opponent, looking for entry or countering accordingly. More often than not you move in a side-stance and shift the whole protractor engagement, back and forth still in a side stance, iow shuffling , stepping but in directions to maintain the staus-quo.

Like Phil mentioned { ive used fighting } we can move to feint direction, get entry from the opponent, by drawing them in and suddenly attacking in...not rocket science.

feinting is king in fighting, 'No Mas' for example...feinting isnt just arms alone...

Knives hold more than a sharp edge, tactics .

Another thing that lets VT down is the drill to move in with leading leg stepping to develop structured stances in movement has become footwork :o the next stage for this stepping in and moving backwards , is the angling off side...iow the idea to step directly in with a lead leg as attacking entry is not the be all end all fighting method, nor is stepping backwards in front of an attacker. The dummy is a good indicator of the movements and leg entry angles . Try moving around the dummy without using your arms, imagine your centerline direction is where your opponent is moving, not the wooden-man....it only holds the arms for our elbows to work on :D iow tan points to the head, etc...We move away from the dummy at angles or adopt facing angles with shifting...to generate for we add the hip thrusting to coincide with the strike orpak sao etc..as we angle to their arm force direction.

We end up 'playing' the centerline as the indicator for what arm to use striking, sometimes we move the protractor and maintain the distances we need to simply evade a kick with backwards movement, evade a wide swinging punch with backwards movement biding our time to enter on our terms , not a preprogrammed 'move using tan sao to block a shin ...ouch.
Ive done this in street 'encounters' a guy will swing without warning to your jaw, you move backwards and then catch them on their attempt to recover from bad technique ; ) trapping their elbow with a pak sao add a few punches to the head and they change their ideas as they fall ko'ed at your feet.



just an idea passed on to me Terence so keep an open mind.

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for another affirmation that you have no clue about real fighting.


Oh, REAL fighting. Gotcha. REAL fighting. ;)



Mushasi in the book of 5 Rings doesn't differentiate between individual or mass warfare combat. Combat is combat.


Let me see if I have this right -- I don't know about REAL fighting but you do because you read Musashi's book (which has nothing to do with WCK). Gotcha. Brilliant.



But since you've done neither you're not expert enough to teach on the subject.


I don't teach.



Having been trained in combat and involved in both unit combat and individual combat and close range knife fighting combat I can tell you have no clue. I see you as an internet warrior. Good luck with that....lol

Yeah, your having fought in Vietnam makes you an expert in WCK and REAL fighting. I wonder how all those MMA, MT,etc. fighters get so good without having been in those REAL fights or having served in the military like you. Maybe they read Musashi. ;)

[k gledhill]

Terence passes judgment again :rolleyes:

[shawchemical]

Oh, REAL fighting. Gotcha. REAL fighting. ;)



Let me see if I have this right -- I don't know about REAL fighting but you do because you read Musashi's book (which has nothing to do with WCK). Gotcha. Brilliant.



I don't teach.



Yeah, your having fought in Vietnam makes you an expert in WCK and REAL fighting. I wonder how all those MMA, MT,etc. fighters get so good without having been in those REAL fights or having served in the military like you. Maybe they read Musashi. ;)

Systems do not fight. People fight, and use the tools from their training. Tactical and strategic concerns never go out of the window unless you participate in sport fighting. In these situations, the available tactical and strategic concerns are controlled by the limits set by the rules of the competition.

In a real fight, there is no winner, no loser only they who survive.

It is a boon to our system that people like you don't teach T, for to teach you need to have a good understanding of the system itself.

[t_niehoff]

All sorts of armies taught fighting while retreating for group action and individual fighting as well.
Mongols, Samurai, Persians etc...
the Parthians in Persia developed the equivalent of a "parting shot" from horse back.


No one is arguing that this isn't the case, Joy. But so what? They weren't using WCK were they?



You can entice a person in and then unload.


If you want to fight from a distance, you can try to do that. Again, this is not WCK's way.



In boxing Gene Tunney did it and so did the maestro Sugar Ray Robinson.


So what? WTF does it matter what someone using a different fighting method does? Muay thai fighters knock people out with flying knees. Does that mean we should do that in WCK?



In wing chun you can superficially appear to step back but hit forward. It does require balanced footwork.
joy

If your body moves backward, you can't hit forward with your body.

BTW, when I talk about stepping away, I am talking about what your BODY is doing, not your feet.

[t_niehoff]

Systems do not fight. People fight, and use the tools from their training. Tactical and strategic concerns never go out of the window unless you participate in sport fighting. In these situations, the available tactical and strategic concerns are controlled by the limits set by the rules of the competition.

In a real fight, there is no winner, no loser only they who survive.

It is a boon to our system that people like you don't teach T, for to teach you need to have a good understanding of the system itself.

Instead, we have all kinds of "masters" who can't beat white belt level MMA fighters teaching guys like you to ahve "a good understanding of the system". :)

[goju]

Yeah, your having fought in Vietnam makes you an expert in WCK and REAL fighting. I wonder how all those MMA, MT,etc. fighters get so good without having been in those REAL fights or having served in the military like you. Maybe they read Musashi. ;)


His military service + competiton experience> you.

[Wayfaring]

Instead, we have all kinds of "masters" who can't beat white belt level MMA fighters teaching guys like you to ahve "a good understanding of the system". :)

They give out belts in MMA now? I heard someone ask about MMA belts once - the instructor said - "you want a belt? that guy over there has one - if you want it you have to take it from him".

[t_niehoff]

His military service + competiton experience> you.

Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

[t_niehoff]

They give out belts in MMA now? I heard someone ask about MMA belts once - the instructor said - "you want a belt? that guy over there has one - if you want it you have to take it from him".

It's just short-hand for beginner-level -- and most of them are white belts in BJJ anyway.

[JPinAZ]

Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

Troll. You can't use your WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

:p

[t_niehoff]

Troll. You can't use your WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

:p

You're funny -- but I guess that goes with being a Benny-guy. :)

[goju]

Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

You dont compete and you havent served in the military. Why are you posting about either? Go Serve you country and fight.

Charlatan!

[t_niehoff]

You dont compete and you havent served in the military. Why are you posting about either? Go Serve you country and fight.

Charlatan!

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

[shawchemical]

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

Pot. kettle. black??????

[t_niehoff]

Pot. kettle. black??????

Oh, another bright boy! But wrong. I could see you saying that if I went to a goju karate forum and began posting -- as I have never trained or practiced goju and know next to nothing about it. In fact, in such an event, you might wonder what drove me to that forum in the first place since it would be clear that I didn't have enough interest in that art to even go train. You might also wonder about my mental health if I began stalking someone on that goju forum who had been training goju continually for 30 years, and posting snide comments that had no substance pertaining to goju. Hell, you might even begin to wonder about other goju practitioners that supported and defended me in my folly. That would be an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

[goju]

Oh, another bright boy! But wrong. I could see you saying that if I went to a goju karate forum and began posting -- as I have never trained or practiced goju and know next to nothing about it. In fact, in such an event, you might wonder what drove me to that forum in the first place since it would be clear that I didn't have enough interest in that art to even go train. You might also wonder about my mental health if I began stalking someone on that goju forum who had been training goju continually for 30 years, and posting snide comments that had no substance pertaining to goju. Hell, you might even begin to wonder about other goju practitioners that supported and defended me in my folly. That would be an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Sorry to interrupt your hyperventilating episode you got going on here but you were babbling on about karate a few months back. In fact you were claiming the reverse punch didnt work and kept trying to pass it off as you knew anything on the subject until sanjuro came in here and pointed out from his fighting experience, (you know the thing you dont have ?) that the punch worked fine, Actually your comment attracted quite alot of others who pointed out the same and you amusingly backed yourself into a corner and continued to rant "yer must be a member or teh reverse punch is effective club!" when it was clearly shown you didnt have a clue what you were talking about.:D

One of the posters here found it amusing enough to use one of your quotes from that thread as his signature too:p

Let me guess this was another art you studied sometime ago with someone who you wont name?:rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

so I'm thinkin.."Wow, four pages on gulou wck san sik? This must be a great thread, just chock full of great exchanges of knowledge..!"

um....no.
It's just T again...
(sigh)

[LoneTiger108]

so I'm thinkin.."Wow, four pages on gulou wck san sik? This must be a great thread, just chock full of great exchanges of knowledge..!"

um....no.
It's just T again...
(sigh)

Don't worry. I feel like this most days :rolleyes:

And because I'm in th UK I'm asked to 'go visit Alan' to explain to me why I shouldn't retreat as a WCK practitioner because he will be able to show me! :eek:

Even the 'reverse punch' goju mentions here is considered a strategic retreat, but none of us know what we're talking about coz we aint training in an MMA gym. :o

[m1k3]

Yeah, your having fought in Vietnam makes you an expert in WCK and REAL fighting. I wonder how all those MMA, MT,etc. fighters get so good without having been in those REAL fights or having served in the military like you. Maybe they read Musashi. ;)



T. this was a bad post. You may not like Phil but to say serving in combat is not real fighting is just plain dumb. To equate MMA and the Military makes no sense at all. Phil brought up his background to provide evidence in support of his opinion. It is an experience that goes way beyond yours and your trite commentary simply points that out much more eloquently than Phil's arguments ever could have.

I train BJJ at an MMA gym and it doesn't begin to come close to military training for fighting at a level you can't even begin to imagine.

Troll. :mad:

[Wayfaring]

T. this was a bad post. You may not like Phil but to say serving in combat is not real fighting is just plain dumb. To equate MMA and the Military makes no sense at all. Phil brought up his background to provide evidence in support of his opinion. It is an experience that goes way beyond yours and your trite commentary simply points that out much more eloquently than Phil's arguments ever could have.

I train BJJ at an MMA gym and it doesn't begin to come close to military training for fighting at a level you can't even begin to imagine.

Troll. :mad:

With all respect for our military and Phil for serving our country, the discussion of "real fighting" and our military has some problems. Those kids can use M-16's and drive Bradleys but have very low hand to hand skills.

The "Combatives" programs they are trained in are supposed to raise that level up a bit, and the competitions they do are supposed to contribute, but in reality you have to get up to the national finals levels of those to get to the skill levels of local amateur mma guys.

So fighting at a level we can't imagine is possibly true related to all the equipment used, but certainly not hand to hand. For that matter, playing some of the more modern video games like MW2 are probably better training for some of the weapons stuff than training hand to hand.

[m1k3]

With all respect for our military and Phil for serving our country, the discussion of "real fighting" and our military has some problems. Those kids can use M-16's and drive Bradleys but have very low hand to hand skills.

The "Combatives" programs they are trained in are supposed to raise that level up a bit, and the competitions they do are supposed to contribute, but in reality you have to get up to the national finals levels of those to get to the skill levels of local amateur mma guys.

So fighting at a level we can't imagine is possibly true related to all the equipment used, but certainly not hand to hand. For that matter, playing some of the more modern video games like MW2 are probably better training for some of the weapons stuff than training hand to hand.

Agreed, military h2h is a small part of the training and to a large degree it's primary purpose is to develop the warrior spirit.

Phil's original comment was about "real fighting" and listing his experience in it including combat, which T jumped on with both feet implying that mma fighting is an equivalent experience with combat or at least military training. :eek: To me this was not limited to H2H.

I have been in the military and train at an MMA gym and while I agree to a large degree with what T has to say, if not the way he says it, I felt he was way off the mark with this one.

Just my 2 cents.

[t_niehoff]

Sorry to interrupt your hyperventilating episode you got going on here but you were babbling on about karate a few months back. In fact you were claiming the reverse punch didnt work and kept trying to pass it off as you knew anything on the subject until sanjuro came in here and pointed out from his fighting experience, (you know the thing you dont have ?) that the punch worked fine, Actually your comment attracted quite alot of others who pointed out the same and you amusingly backed yourself into a corner and continued to rant "yer must be a member or teh reverse punch is effective club!" when it was clearly shown you didnt have a clue what you were talking about.:D

One of the posters here found it amusing enough to use one of your quotes from that thread as his signature too:p

Let me guess this was another art you studied sometime ago with someone who you wont name?:rolleyes:

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

[t_niehoff]

Agreed, military h2h is a small part of the training and to a large degree it's primary purpose is to develop the warrior spirit.

Phil's original comment was about "real fighting" and listing his experience in it including combat, which T jumped on with both feet implying that mma fighting is an equivalent experience with combat or at least military training. :eek: To me this was not limited to H2H.


That's not what I said or was implying.

The whole "REAL fighting" issue is, for me, nonsense. That suggests there is one set of fighting skills for the ring, gym, cage, etc. and another for the str33t, all3y, etc. and that they are mutually exclusive. There's not. If you can't make it work in a ring or in a gym, you're not going to make it work anywhere.

Phil's comment was along the lines of he knew -- unlike me -- what really worked because he "understood" REAL fighting, having served and fought as a Marine in Vietnam. Sorry, but that is apples and oranges. My point is that if what you do "really works" then you should be able to do it against white-belt level MMA fighters, guys with SOME solid training behind them.



I have been in the military and train at an MMA gym and while I agree to a large degree with what T has to say, if not the way he says it, I felt he was way off the mark with this one.

Just my 2 cents.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. If I wasn't more clear, I'm sorry.

[goju]

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

Why did you bring up karate that day? Who was your sensei? What style of Karate did yo do?

[t_niehoff]

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

[Wayfaring]

^Troll. You don't train WCK so why are you posting on a WCK forum? Go train WCK.

Troll.

double standard. the bulk of the time you're spamming this forum telling people to go cross-train BJJ and MMA like you do. now you're going all traditional and saying people can't post here who don't train WCK?

dude. really.

[t_niehoff]

double standard. the bulk of the time you're spamming this forum telling people to go cross-train BJJ and MMA like you do. now you're going all traditional and saying people can't post here who don't train WCK?

dude. really.

Double standard? That suggests that I am doing what I say not to do. So let's see -- I'm saying that if you don't even train WCK or know anything about it, then you really have no point (other than being a troll) posting on a WCK forum.

As I mentioned above, a double standard would be my going on a goju karate forum when I don't train goju and don't know anything about it. That's not what I am doing.

Suggesting people cross-train is not the same thing at all.

[m1k3]

This is one of these occasions that vague terms like 'real fighting' and 'combat' cloud the issue rather that clear things up.

To me fighting occurs on a continuum starting at a low end of bad looks and harsh language in a one on one situation up to oh, world war 2 at the other.

MMA and WC and TMAs for the most part fall into a 1 on 1 dueling type fight situation under conditions that rarely end up with serious injury or death. Further along the continuum the violence level increases, weapons are include and the number of 'players' increases. Here serious injury is much more likely and finally moving into combat between larger well armed groups with the intent of killing their opponents. The skills needed at different points along the continuum are different also. Situational awareness, street smarts and deescalation skills at the lower end, good basic fighting skills in the middle and military combat skills at the high end.

Of course there is some overlap of skills as you move along the scale.

I believe this leads to some of the interesting discussions we have as people are talking about some point of the scale and think the person they are talking to is at the same or similar point. For example T and myself today.

If someone wishes to codify this scale, publish it and we could all refer to it, would be greatly appreciated.

[t_niehoff]

This is one of these occasions that vague terms like 'real fighting' and 'combat' cloud the issue rather that clear things up.


Agreed. That's why I don't think we should use them!



To me fighting occurs on a continuum starting at a low end of bad looks and harsh language in a one on one situation up to oh, world war 2 at the other.


I don't think we need to make it that complex. Instead, just look at it from a practical perspective. For example, in terms of individual empty hand fighting.



MMA and WC and TMAs for the most part fall into a 1 on 1 dueling type fight situation under conditions that rarely end up with serious injury or death. Further along the continuum the violence level increases, weapons are include and the number of 'players' increases. Here serious injury is much more likely and finally moving into combat between larger well armed groups with the intent of killing their opponents. The skills needed at different points along the continuum are different also.


I think you are making a category mistake (trying to fit things in different categories into one category). In empty hand fighting there is stand-up, clinch, and ground, and fundamental skills you need at each stage/range to be able to competently handle yourself. Weapons are a whole other category (you can be a great empty hand fighter and have zero weapon skill or great weapon skill and zero empty hand skill). Warfare is another category.



Situational awareness, street smarts and deescalation skills at the lower end, good basic fighting skills in the middle and military combat skills at the high end.


No. A lot of self-defense involve things like situational awareness, street smarts, etc. In fact, if you end up having to fight, you probably have poor self-defense skills (since they obviously failed you)!

Military combat skills aren't "at the high end" -- they are just in an entirely different category.



Of course there is some overlap of skills as you move along the scale.


I'd say that there is some overlap in the different categories.



I believe this leads to some of the interesting discussions we have as people are talking about some point of the scale and think the person they are talking to is at the same or similar point. For example T and myself today.

If someone wishes to codify this scale, publish it and we could all refer to it, would be greatly appreciated.

I think this is really an apples/oranges (different category) issue rather than a continuum issue.

[JPinAZ]

You're funny -- but I guess that goes with being a Benny-guy. :)

What the hell are you talking about?

[t_niehoff]

What the hell are you talking about?

Aren't you from Meng's of Arizona? Doesn't that make you one of Benny's boys?

[Wayfaring]

Aren't you from Meng's of Arizona? Doesn't that make you one of Benny's boys?

No. Benny split off from HFY a while ago. He's doing "black flag" HKB eng chun now - I'm sure you've seen the threads on that. A lot of Benny's guys stayed with him but the AZ guys and a bunch of others stayed with Garrett Gee to keep pursuing training HFY. There's more details but that's the overview.

[Wayfaring]

Double standard? That suggests that I am doing what I say not to do. So let's see -- I'm saying that if you don't even train WCK or know anything about it, then you really have no point (other than being a troll) posting on a WCK forum.

As I mentioned above, a double standard would be my going on a goju karate forum when I don't train goju and don't know anything about it. That's not what I am doing.

Suggesting people cross-train is not the same thing at all.

What I am trying to get at with the double standard comment is that you can't have it both ways.

On one hand lecturing all the traditionalists that they need to cross train outside of WCK.

On the other hand lecturing all the cross-trainers with limited WCK experience that they can't post here because they don't train WCK.

So address goju's comments like you do everyone else you don't see eye to eye with. It's kind of boring to see the "troll" standard response.

[t_niehoff]

What I am trying to get at with the double standard comment is that you can't have it both ways.

On one hand lecturing all the traditionalists that they need to cross train outside of WCK.


It's actually more than that -- I'm saying that the traditional way of training doesn't produce good results and that if people want to develop fighting skills, that sport type training produces better results, and that they should go train with fighters if they want to develop fighting skills (since that is the only way).



On the other hand lecturing all the cross-trainers with limited WCK experience that they can't post here because they don't train WCK.


I don't see goju as a "cross trainer".

And, the difference is that my point (above) pertains to WCK and is based on my experience with WCK, including everything I've seen in 30 years of practicing WCK, etc. So, even when I talk about the need to cross-train it is from a WCK perspective, and is informed by WCK training and experience. Whereas when people with no training in WCK come to a forum, anything they have to offer doesn't pertain -- because it can't -- to WCK. Dale, for example, may have a MMA perspective, but he has trained in WCK.



So address goju's comments like you do everyone else you don't see eye to eye with. It's kind of boring to see the "troll" standard response.

That's all goju -- and one or two others -- is getting from me. There is no point in my discussing anything pertaining to WCK with a guy who has absolutely no clue as to WCK and so isn't here, in my view, except to troll. If he is a karate cross-trainer and wants to talk from that perspective, there are forums for that.

[t_niehoff]

No. Benny split off from HFY a while ago. He's doing "black flag" HKB eng chun now - I'm sure you've seen the threads on that. A lot of Benny's guys stayed with him but the AZ guys and a bunch of others stayed with Garrett Gee to keep pursuing training HFY. There's more details but that's the overview.

Oh, so they WERE Benny's boys, trained by Benny or Benny's students in a satellite Benny school, but NOW they no longer affiliate themselves with Benny. Got it.

[Wayfaring]

Oh, so they WERE Benny's boys, trained by Benny or Benny's students in a satellite Benny school, but NOW they no longer affiliate themselves with Benny. Got it.

Close. Richard Loewenhagen started that school in AZ - was under Benny. He and several of his students trained directly with Moy Yat through that affiliation. They discovered Garrett Gee after Moy Yat died through I believe Rene's book. Everyone trained under Garrett Gee from that point. Benny left Garrett Gee. Richard and his guys did not - have continued with Garrett for a number of years now.

I know you're having all sorts of fun with this, but the story of who people train WCK with can have some turns to it. As does yours, and your teacher's.

[Wayfaring]

It's actually more than that -- I'm saying that the traditional way of training doesn't produce good results and that if people want to develop fighting skills, that sport type training produces better results, and that they should go train with fighters if they want to develop fighting skills (since that is the only way).

I agree.


And, the difference is that my point (above) pertains to WCK and is based on my experience with WCK, including everything I've seen in 30 years of practicing WCK, etc. So, even when I talk about the need to cross-train it is from a WCK perspective, and is informed by WCK training and experience. Whereas when people with no training in WCK come to a forum, anything they have to offer doesn't pertain -- because it can't -- to WCK. Dale, for example, may have a MMA perspective, but he has trained in WCK.

Who have you studied WCK with exactly? Besides Robert Chu long-distance?

I think Dale's WCK background was mainly with Dan Inosanto, right? Who is like one of the prime examples of MMA anywhere - he's a pioneer. But definitely not one of your long-time primary WCK teachers about.

The point being that varying levels of involvement of WCK as well as cross-training topics are fine on this forum.

[t_niehoff]

You can have discussions with whomever you like. As I have said, for me, I think goju and a few others are nothing but trolls and I won't waste my time.

Moreover, they know that I think they are trolls (I've told them so) and so any of their comments/questions directed at me will be treated accordingly.

[Knifefighter]

In my opinion, there is no right way or wrong ways. A lot depends on the personal experiences of the teacher and the teacher's teacher on what worked for them.

I believe where to step to is incidental; we just want to move to an advantageous position (also a Tsun Tzu thing), while CONTINUING to attack, keeping the pressure on the opponent both physically and psychologically. In a real fight you either win or get beaten within seconds, unlike competing in a ring or cage. Of course, if one can disengage and run safely, it would be even better as you never know if the attack is carrying a gun, knives, or surrounded by his 10 of his cousins.

Cheers,
John

Lots of fights last longer that 10 seconds. Seems kind of stupid to me to assume and then base everything on that.

BTW, the reason things take longer in a cage is because the opponents are evenly matched and that's what happens when you go against someone who is about the same skill level as you are.

Why do people who have zero experience with "ring fighting" always see the need to throw in some clueless comment about it.

[Knifefighter]

Thank you so much for writing this. Now I know for sure you have no clue about real combat.

BJJ is a pretty good personal "combat" system. The basic philosophy of this system is to close the gap, stay close, smother the opponent, take him down, and finish him on the ground... not really much retreating there.

[imperialtaichi]

Lots of fights last longer that 10 seconds. Seems kind of stupid of me to assume base everything on that.

BTW, the reason things take longer in a cage is because the opponents are evenly matched and that's what happens when you go against someone who is about the same skill level as you are.

Why do people who have zero experience with "ring fighting" always see the need to throw in some clueless comment about it.

Please let me apologize for my ignorance, for not ever seening a real fight that lasted three rounds and the winner won on points. And wow, 10 seconds, long time.
:D

Man, don't get all defensive about it. Many of us here, including myself, have a lot of respect for the cage/ring fighters. I had never mentioned anything negative about cage/ring fighters.

There is no doubt cage/ring fighters are effective in real fights; but you cannot deny that real fights are different from cage fights.

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

Please let me apologize for my ignorance, for not ever seening a real fight that lasted three rounds and the winner won on points. And wow, 10 seconds, long time


Man, don't get all defensive about it. Many of us here, including myself, have a lot of respect for the cage/ring fighters. I had never mentioned anything negative about cage/ring fighters.

There is no doubt cage/ring fighters are effective in real fights; but you cannot deny that real fights are different from cage fights.

Of course they are different. That being said, you are stupid if you think most real fights are over in just a few seconds.

BTW, fighting in the cage is much closer a real fight than doing forms, drills, and, even sparring in your training studio.

[Knifefighter]

BTW, the sport vs. "real combat" issue has been going on for at least 150 years, starting way back when Kano developed judo to prove the effectiveness of the sport training model over the "deadly combat" model of jujutsu and mopped the floor with the jujutsu guys in challenge matches. When you put the sport model against the "combat" model, the sport model wins just about every time. The best thing you can do if you want be a better "real" fighter is to do sport training.

I posted these in another thread, but they are also applicable here. This is almost always the result when you test the combat vs. sport model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xdieYG8Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0&feature=related

[imperialtaichi]

Of course they are different. That being said, you are stupid if you think most real fights are over in just a few seconds.

I wrote "within seconds", you said "10 seconds". If that make me stupid, what does that make you?

Come on man, most cage/ring fighters I know are courteous and opened minded. We are interested in constructive discussions and not b!tching. By all means, present your views. B!tching only discredits yourself.

[Knifefighter]

I wrote "within seconds", you said "10 seconds". If that make me stupid, what does that make you?

Come on man, most cage/ring fighters I know are courteous and opened minded. We are interested in constructive discussions and not b!tching. By all means, present your views. B!tching only discredits yourself.

Saying fights are over in a matter of seconds discredits you.

LOL @ saying you want constructive discussion after making clueless dumb@ss comments about ring fighting.

[imperialtaichi]

BTW, the sport vs. "real combat" issue has been going on for at least 150 years

The problem is, why do people have to fight over what is better?

Just about every popular fighting styles has its own merits and limitations. Being a bigot limits our views and ultimately limits our development. Especially these days, when everything is posted on the internet we have for the first time in history see what others are doing.

True, everyone likes to think their style is the best, their methods are the best; otherwise we would not dedicate ourselves to years of painful hardwork in our arts; and there is absolutely nothing wrong in that! But we should work together to promote martial arts as a whole, and not all the infighting within ourselves. Seriously, look at this thread: how many post are name callings and arguing, and how many are genuine discussions? It is no wonder people are choosing to do yoga instead of martial arts with all the bickering going on!

Cheers,
John

[goju]

I don't see goju as a "cross trainer"..
golly I feel so offended you dont consider me a cross trainer even though i am well versed in three arts and have added a fourth one this year:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If only i did what was it? a few months of wing chun like you did i would look legit:D


Wayfaring was corect you babble on about mma bjj and muay thai and cant even name your coaches or rank in any of these styles which points to you not studying them thus making your post contradictory.:p

[jesper]

golly I feel so offended you dont consider me a cross trainer even though i am well versed in three arts and have added a fourth one this year:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If only i did what was it? a few months of wing chun like you did i would look legit:D


Wayfaring was corect you babble on about mma bjj and muay thai and cant even name your coaches or rank in any of these styles which points to you not studying them thus making your post contradictory.:p

If your not a troll then what exactly are you doing in the Wing Chun section. All you seem to contribute is personal attacks ?

[goju]

who said i wasnt trolling? im not denying that im being an @ss im just not taking it seriously like everyone else here who is talking sh!T.:p

plus it breaks up the monotony of the back and forth "You dont have the real wing chun!!!":D

[m1k3]

Goju, I always thought Goju-Ryu was Okinawan hard style Wing Chun, neh?:eek:

[goju]

Goju, I always thought Goju-Ryu was Okinawan hard style Wing Chun, neh?:eek:

ha ha!

though there was an article a while back in Classical Fighting arts talking about wing chun being exported to Okinawa:eek:

[t_niehoff]

Goju is a troll -- a self-admitted troll. Don't feed the trolls.

[m1k3]

Sorry, but as a member of PETT (people for the ethical treatment of trolls) I must take offensive at your last post.

The not feeding or starvation of trolls is abhorrent practice that dates back to the dark ages of the internetz and is not valid.

Everyone knows the correct way to handle a troll is through the kind and loving application of a taser.

[goju]

nah with the iron chi gung skill form sanchin tazer hooks just bounces off harmlessly:D

[TenTigers]

bah-sanchin is simply samjien from Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok
-done incorrectly. a xerox of a xerox...:p

[kung fu fighter]

Here is another good kulo wing chun clip, I wonder if T has any critisism of this guys ability :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBmokwsTm0

[m1k3]

Saying fights are over in a matter of seconds discredits you.

LOL @ saying you want constructive discussion after making clueless dumb@ss comments about ring fighting.

Since this is the WC forum and splitting hairs is an art form here I feel the need to post:

Dale, you do realize that a 10 minute fight is 600 seconds, so yes, all fights are over in a matter of seconds. :D

[t_niehoff]

Here is another good kulo wing chun clip, I wonder if T has any critisism of this guys ability :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBmokwsTm0

What makes that a "good" clip?

[YungChun]

bah-sanchin is simply samjien from Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok
-done incorrectly. a xerox of a xerox...:p

Now that's funny.... Panginoon... was the name of the copy machine guy I guess.. lol

But try getting the oki style guys laughing... :D:cool:

[TenTigers]

Now that's funny.... Panginoon... was the name of the copy machine guy I guess.. lol

But try getting the oki style guys laughing... :D:cool:
actually, I believe pangainoon is the earlier name of Uechi-ryu, and Kingai was the
earlier name for Goju-ryu.
Miyagi took the name goju from a quote found in the Bubishi text on Fukien Bak Hok and Lohon Kuen.

[YungChun]

actually, I believe pangainoon is the earlier name of Uechi-ryu, and Kingai was the
earlier name for Goju-ryu.
Miyagi took the name goju from a quote found in the Bubishi text on Fukien Bak Hok and Lohon Kuen.

All a bunch of made-it-up-while-on-the-pot as far as I am concerned.. Goju and Uechi both came from "shushiwa" whoever that was.. It was said he trained in Pangainoon....which also doesn't exist according to any records in China..

And then you have the whole Chinese teaching non-Chinese and we already know how that can go wrong even when the students are Chinese...etc, etc..then the Japanese or (almost blown into non-existence) Okinawans if you prefer teaching bored American conquerers after WWII...and on and on, until you're left with a long and highly disturbing game of martial art 'telephone'...

Totally clueless are most regarding these arts, who appear to have little to no understanding of the root ideas in these arts, or the arts that these things came from or even where they came from.......

[chusauli]

Pangainoon is modern Uechi Ryu, based on what Uechi Kanbun brought back from the teachings of Zhou Zi He in Fujian. Uechi Kanei (his son) began to further Okinawasize his art and organize it as a modern Karate Do.

KinGai Ryu is what Shinko and Shinpo Matayoshi taught.

Goju Ryu is organized by Miyagi Chojun and based on what Higaonna Kanryo taught and brought from China. Another Okinawan system based on Higaonna's teachings is To On Ryu.

WCK is related as offspring from Fujian White Crane system.

[YungChun]

Pangainoon is modern Uechi Ryu, based on what Uechi Kanbun brought back from the teachings of Zhou Zi He in Fujian. Uechi Kanei (his son) began to further Okinawasize his art and organize it as a modern Karate Do.

KinGai Ryu is what Shinko and Shinpo Matayoshi taught.

Goju Ryu is organized by Miyagi Chojun and based on what Higaonna Kanryo taught and brought from China. Another Okinawan system based on Higaonna's teachings is To On Ryu.

WCK is related as offspring from Fujian White Crane system.
Pangainoon is not how Mattson (main branch) refers to the art as Uechi Ryu..and they claim it came from a CMA called Pangainoon which they could not verify.

From what I know Uechi and Miyagi both (any others?) had the same mystery teacher..not sure if you implied that.. No one can verify for sure what style it actually came from, according to GEM.

From what I have seen none of them had a clue as to how the art was intended to be used and still don't..although copying Chun sometimes helps it seems. The forms look more like FWC than do Chun's however, also similar to 'Five Ancestors'.

[goju]

From what I have seen none of them had a clue as to how the art was intended to be used and still don't.


Huh? what do you mean by that? Both styles were the okinawana variation of the kung fu they learned in china.They werent designed to be mirror images of what they learned by their chinese teacher rather they were designed to fit to their new creation

They both clearly work includingt he xerox copy of sanchin:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P39jQjty8yw

[YungChun]

Huh? what do you mean by that? Both styles were the okinawana variation of the kung fu they learned in china.They werent designed to be mirror images of what they learned by their chinese teacher rather they were designed to fit to their new creation

They both clearly work includingt he xerox copy of sanchin:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P39jQjty8yw

Lol... Depends on what one means by "work"...

Here's the highest ranking dewd in the US performing their primary basic two man drill..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lFztZOp3po

Then we can continue on to their second form apps..

[JPinAZ]

Aren't you from Meng's of Arizona? Doesn't that make you one of Benny's boys?

I 'train' at Hung Fa Kwoon of Arizona. I originally trained solely under Richard Loewenhagen, and since he has stepped down from active teaching and no long owns that school school, I train with me brothers there and also directly under GM Gee.

I am not and never was anyone's 'boy'. I don't have any tattoos with my teachers name :D, just a student and instructor in training. Your obvious attempt to slight me in whatever slick manner you think you've found is a waste of time. You obviously have no clue what or who I train with, so IMO, you're just trolling.

As for Benny Meng, it's really simple, he's following his own path. That's all that needs to be said. Besides, I thought you could care less about HFY or it's members. Funny how much you think you know about them ;)

[t_niehoff]

I 'train' at Hung Fa Kwoon of Arizona.


Yes, formerly Meng's of Arizona, right?



I originally trained solely under Richard Loewenhagen,


Yes, he was Benny's student -- and disciple too, right?



and since he has stepped down from active teaching and no long owns that school school, I train with me brothers there and also directly under GM Gee.


I see, so you are no longer affiliated with Loewenhagen or Benny. OK.



I am not and never was anyone's 'boy'.


I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that you were one of Benny's progeny, one of his grand-students, someone descending from his line of WCK, etc. And it seems to me that along with that WCK, association with Benny carries a certain, specific sensibility as it were.



I don't have any tattoos with my teachers name :D,


Nor do I. I don't have any tats.



just a student and instructor in training.


"Instructor in training"? Interesting.



Your obvious attempt to slight me in whatever slick manner you think you've found is a waste of time. You obviously have no clue what or who I train with, so IMO, you're just trolling.


I thought you were training in HFY with "Sifu" Mark. Was I wrong?



As for Benny Meng, it's really simple, he's following his own path. That's all that needs to be said.


I'm sure that's all you would like to be said! ;)



Besides, I thought you could care less about HFY or it's members. Funny how much you think you know about them ;)

Typically I don't. But you may notice that I didn't post anything about you or HFY until AFTER you posted some comment directed toward me. Poke me with a stick, then don't complain that I respond. :)

[JPinAZ]

Wow, you really do have some attachment, but let me clarify since it's obviously something you are very much interested in (and by that, I mean your continued attempts to poorly piece together my personal training history and family tree. Are you looking for a date or something?):
Sifu Loewenhagen is still my HFY sifu. Yes, Benny was his Moy Yat teacher. They both studied HFY directly under GM Gee, as do I when not training directly with my sifu. Besides my own history, this is all very common knowledge. BFD
And, since you're obviously so interested in HFY and what Benny is doing, why don't you ask him?

Yeah, I was 'poking' at you in regards to your direct comment, you calling someone a troll. I put a :p to let you know it was in jest, but clearly I touched a nerve. Sorry you got your panties in a wad. I don't know where you're going with any of this lineage or teacher stuff which has nothing to do with the discussion, so if you have something to say just say it. Otherwise, STFU and stop trolling

[t_niehoff]

Wow, you really do have some attachment, but let me clarify since it's obviously something you are very much interested in (and by that, I mean your continued attempts to poorly piece together my personal training history and family tree. Are you looking for a date or something?):
Sifu Loewenhagen is still my HFY sifu. Yes, Benny was his Moy Yat teacher. They both studied HFY directly under GM Gee, as do I when not training directly with my sifu. Besides my own history, this is all very common knowledge. BFD


Yes, as you say, "common knowledge." So, as it is "common knowledge" -- that is, something known commonly -- a person would not need to "really have some attachment" to know it, would they? ;)



Yeah, I was 'poking' at you in regards to your direct comment, you calling someone a troll. I put a :p to let you know it was in jest, but clearly I touched a nerve. Sorry you got your panties in a wad. I don't know where you're going with any of this lineage or teacher stuff which has nothing to do with the discussion, so if you have something to say just say it. Otherwise, STFU and stop trolling

Stop poking me and I will stop responding.

[Wayfaring]

Stop poking me and I will stop responding.

So, while we are at it here, I don't believe you ever answered me regarding your "over thirty years" of WCK training.

You have studied for how long long distance with Robert Chu? How many total meetings?

Where did you study WCK for the "thirty years" prior to that? With whom? Where?

It's "common knowledge" that there is not a whole lot of WCK going on where you currently live in St. Louis, MO. In fact, the only WCK we see is the videos that seem to be posted on this site of a couple people training.

So, by common logic, you have not trained WCK with anyone hands on that teaches it for quite some time, and do not really now.

Please, enlighten us on your "over thirty years".

:rolleyes:

[goju]

Lol... Depends on what one means by "work"...

Here's the highest ranking dewd in the US performing their primary basic two man drill..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lFztZOp3po

Then we can continue on to their second form apps..

By work i mean the only thing that matters and thats fighting. Uechi and Goju both have practioners who compete and do well in knock down karate. The latter in fact was good enough for oyama to add heavily into kyokushin. We have yet to see the chinese ancestors of these two arts compete in that level of competition or above it dispite the fact they are supposed to being doing it the "right" way.

Oh yeah and goju and uechi didnt both come from shishiwa only the latter did. Considerding both higashionna and i believe uechi as well were both illiterate its more than likely they didnt get their teachers names correctly

[YungChun]

By work i mean the only thing that matters and thats fighting. Uechi and Goju both have practioners who compete and do well in knock down karate. The latter in fact was good enough for oyama to add heavily into kyokushin. We have yet to see the chinese ancestors of these two arts compete in that level of competition or above it dispite the fact they are supposed to being doing it the "right" way.


Any bloody idiot can fight... You don't need a TMA to do that.. The clips speak for themselves..moreover I did karate for years, have visited many dojo and most honest and well read karateka will tell you the same thing, the truth: as far as the forms, techniques and intent of the arts--they haven't a clue. All the videos clearly show that. That's why these styles spend so much time breaking sticks over their bodies and smashing their fingers into things disfiguring them.. The last dojo I visited, the teacher tried to show me how he would stop me with his classical moves.. Well, his stuff didn't work and I promptly sent him airborne across the length of the dojo and nearly out the front door of the school in front of all his students..

I did a little WC seminar at a dojo where top level guys teach and after the class they all came up to me and asked me what "this move" (in their forms) was for, and what "that move" was for... Why do you think they asked me, hmmm? Because they spend hours and hours training this stuff and have no idea why.. Some even today think that by training these kata over and over again it will somehow teach them how to fight, without actually fighting.

I mean there is some of this in Chun, many chun schools are a joke, but it's 10 times worse in karate...sorry if that offends some but that's my opinion.. Sure some of them fight, but don't use anything from the art, and some just play the forms and do the horrible classical drills... Now don't even get me started on the Bunkai..which in many cases were just pulled right out of someone's ass and many high Dan ranks will tell you so.. In any case my position stands and the proof is all over the Net and in most any dojo you can find. Now maybe there is a really good classical dojo out there somewhere but I haven't seen it.

Now don't get me wrong.. There are good things about karate as it is trained now (fighting/sparring learning model), and many kung-fu people could learn a thing or two from them... but it doesn't have Jack to do with any kata, drills or classical made up BS.



Oh yeah and goju and uechi didnt both come from shishiwa only the latter did. Considerding both higashionna and i believe uechi as well were both illiterate its more than likely they didnt get their teachers names correctly

I would have to go re-research it, last I heard it was believed it was the same guy. The core kata are basically the same after all (or were) as is the location it came from... Besides it's clear no one intended to be clear about the source of these arts.. They could have easily named a valid art, lineage and teacher, but they chose not to, hmmmm...

Then you have the dumbing down of karate for use in Japanese elementary schools, as if it wasn't dumb enough already...and on and on and on...

[goju]

Any bloody idiot can fight... You don't need a TMA to do that..
Not every idiot can fight well though or develop the adequate skills to fight in knock down tourneys. Both these styles again have teachers and practioners who can develop this. Where are the fukien crane of five ancestor stylists competing? Since they apparently have the real stuff why is there no one out their applying it?Is it not odd that the ones who dont know what they are doing openly apply their art while the ones who do never show their stuff against a resisting partner in a realistic pressure test?


I recall someone mentioning earlier here that alot of Kung fu practioners like the idea of having the secret good stuff , the techniques that only few are privy too but in the end the only secret is they are buying into whatever nonsense their teacher is feeding them.

And this is why i like karate specifically it took the good things about kung fu and largely( not always) removed the supposed secret stuff and the chi wizardry. In other words it trimmed down the unnecessary fat and got down to the basics.A bit meat and potatoes for some but the path of simplicty is the best way to defend oneself.

Hell in ross's chan tai shan thread he mentioned shan liked krotty and chans likely forgot more kung fu than anyone here has learned.:D So if a guy like that approves ill take it that most naysayers like to play the secret holding elitist card or just have seen real bad karate lol.




Now maybe there is a really good classical dojo out there somewhere but I haven't seen it.

find the nearest kk dojo and give it a whirl

[YungChun]

Not every idiot can fight well though or develop the adequate skills to fight in knock down tourneys. Both these styles again have teachers and practioners who can develop this. Where are the fukien crane of five ancestor stylists competing? Since they apparently have the real stuff why is there no one out their applying it?Is it not odd that the ones who dont know what they are doing openly apply their art while the ones who do never show their stuff against a resisting partner in a realistic pressure test?


Sorry this doesn't address the point at all.. I'm talking about spending hours and hours training kata and moves that are never used or understood.. Training drills and bunkai that are never used and never could be used in actual fighting by those training it, and who often admit that they don't know what it's for.

Moreover, I never extolled the virtues of 5 Ancestor Fu as I am not familiar with it or anyone who does it.

Also note that I already said that the Fu people could learn from the fighting sparring model common to many karateka..and have specifically suggested more than once here that I think Chun should adopt a knockdown match model.

And what is KK? Kyokushin? As you said they chopped away the parts they didn't understand (90%?) and were left with a handful of tools--there's nothing classical about kick-boxing, which is fine but doesn't address this issue.

[goju]

Sorry this doesn't address the point at all.. I'm talking about spending hours and hours training kata and moves that are never used or understood.. Training drills and bunkai that are never used and never could be used in actual fighting by those training it, and who often admit that they don't know what it's for.

I addressed it fully. What is the point of doing something thats viewed as proper when you wont or cant use it and something supposedly not proper works just as well or better? Sure your not clinging to tradition and what you think the founder of the system had in mind when he created it but its that the only benefit?

what specific drill and forms in southern chinese styles do the karateka get wrong and which is the correct way and where are the demonstration of it being applied in
the right way?




Moreover, I never extolled the virtues of 5 Ancestor Fu as I am not familiar with it or anyone who does it.

I mentioned it because the style is believed to have had an impact on karate especially Goju.




And what is KK? Kyokushin? As you said they chopped away the parts they didn't understand (90%?) and were left with a handful of tools--there's nothing classical about kick-boxing, which is fine but doesn't address this issue.

Kyokushin resmbles goju and shotokan to a very large degree same forms same bunkai similar drills etc,etc its hardly kickboxing.

[YungChun]

I addressed it fully. What is the point of doing something thats viewed as proper when you wont or cant use it and something supposedly not proper works just as well or better? Sure your not clinging to tradition and what you think the founder of the system had in mind when he created it but its that the only benefit?

what specific drill and forms in southern chinese styles do the karateka get wrong and which is the correct way and where are the demonstration of it being applied in
the right way?

Okay, I don't know what you're talking about.

What is your point? My point is that spending hours training $hit you don't use is stupid... My original point was even simpler: They don't know what all those moves are for....many Chun people could tell you though, and many also couldn't..

You ask: "What drills they got wrong?"

That would be the drills that they spend hours doing but never put to use...and the same ones, that they keep asking what they're for.... Train one way, fight another..way at best.. Not a problem limited to karate but in the case of karate this virtually defines it's modern emergence amid layer upon layer of deceit, salesmanship and later mindless 'modernization'..

Fighting karate begins to put the parts (very few) back together.. That is if you think that karate is still karate after removing 90% of it and getting 40% of what's left from other stuff. But classical karateka and classical karate styles have not done this. Those are the ones I refer to... I'm just saying they don't know what all that work, all those moves are for.

[goju]

What is your point? My point is that spending hours training $hit you don't use is stupid... My original point was even simpler: They don't know what all those moves are for....many Chun people could tell you though, and many also couldn't...

Let me get this strait unless you worded this a tad wrong not only are you generalizing karate but you think somehow a wing chun practioner would be able to tell a karateka what his kata and drills are used for despite the fact karate came from noteably different chinese arts than Wing chun and was further mixed with the native okinawan art te. That is beyond proposterous. You might as well say a chin na master can correct a bjj practioner on his locks.


You ask: "What drills they got wrong?"

That would be the drills that they spend hours doing but never put to use...and the same ones, that they keep asking what they're for.... Train one way, fight another..way at best.. Not a problem limited to karate but in the case of karate this virtually defines it's modern emergence amid layer upon layer of deceit, salesmanship and later mindless 'modernization'.. .

Just simply saying "that is wrong" isnt evidence of anything.The right way should be provided or this just boils down to speculation and opinion.


Fighting karate begins to put the parts (very few) back together.. That is if you think that karate is still karate after removing 90% of it and getting 40% of what's left from other stuff. But classical karateka and classical karate styles have not done this. Those are the ones I refer to... I'm just saying they don't know what all that work, all those moves are for.

You're failing to use logic.Karate couldnt have existed if it wasnt for classical karate. If all they taught was mindless forms and drill for hours then how did oyama become who he was and create what he did? He spent a wealth of time in goju and shotokan training in a classical setting yet this classical style produced an individual quite the opposite of what you claim.

I know entirely what my moves are for and what the drills are for and i hardly learned anything unique.Again your generalizations elitist view point is clouding your judgement.

[YungChun]

Let me get this strait unless you worded this a tad wrong not only are you generalizing karate but you think somehow a wing chun practioner would be able to tell a karateka what his kata and drills are used for despite the fact karate came from noteably different chinese arts than Wing chun and was further mixed with the native okinawan art te. That is beyond proposterous. You might as well say a chin na master can correct a bjj practioner on his locks.

Not at all.. All Southern Chinese arts have similar roots.. These arts even come from a similar off-shoot and the same general location... Your reasoning is flawed.

I mean it's common knowledge among most folks involved with the art even at high levels.. And as always you don't need to carry a shovel for the circus to know crap when you see it.



Just simply saying "that is wrong" isnt evidence of anything.The right way should be provided or this just boils down to speculation and opinion.

Uh huh, so that was the case I made? Those three words? Very interesting...

No it's not because I said so, it's because of what I already wrote, the examples I cited.. All anyone with any sense has to see and hear are all the students (and Dan's) shaking their heads at the BS made up garbage applications, hear the constant questions: Why do we do that? It's flipping rampant.. It's no mystery or surprise to anyone in the know with experience that none, NONE of these arts are understood on any but the most superficial level... I have spoken with and trained with top people and the heads of various organizations, I betray no secrets... Even guys like Patrick McCarthy know the deal....it's a business, folks were sold a bill of goods...wake up! And again, it's not just karate...ummm hello?

Many are looking for answers in other arts, like Chinese arts, trying to put the pieces back together... It's not something I made up.... You can see even the top people in Okinowa trying to do the same thing... And it should be no surprise to anyone who has done the arts, and very clear to anyone who has done any research...

Again this is not just limited to karate, but karate has been affected since it's outset, no--and follow along now, not because I said so but because of all the evidence I wrote about which apparently zoomed right over your head...

De Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.




You're failing to use logic.Karate couldnt have existed if it wasnt for classical karate.

There's a logical statement... Karate couldn't exist if not for karate.. Yes very enlightening..



If all they taught was mindless forms and drill for hours then how did oyama become who he was and create what he did?


What did he create? He simply modernized the training.. He had no special knowledge of the art, just a modern spin to step up training..



I know entirely what my moves are for and what the drills are for and i hardly learned anything unique.

Yes of course you do... It's just the masters that don't and keep asking what those stange katas are for and what joker came up with those idiotic bunkai and unrealistic drills.. :rolleyes:

Hey I didn't make this stuff up and I have had many discussions on this subject for many years with many people involved in these arts.. I just report honestly..

"You can't really use those moves from the kata in fighting, I mean maybe in the old days against a sword or something, I really don't know..." -- 9th Dan Karate Master

[goju]

Not at all.. All Southern Chinese arts have similar roots.. These arts even come from a similar off-shoot and the same general location... Your reasoning is flawed.

Lol oh come on the only common ground goju and wing chun have is they both have bridging in their system and even then their approaches are very different. Trying to reason a wc practioner could break down fukien crane, five ancestor and hung gar is wishful thinking much less an off shoot from these styles that is mixed with non chinese arts.



Uh huh, so that was the case I made? Those three words? Very interesting...

Well you havent explained why its wrong in detail and have relied on little else besides your self proclaimed knowledge and supposedly everyone else :rolleyes: As i Said show me the proper drills in kung fu or are you not even aware of which ones karate got them from?


it's a business, folks were sold a bill of goods...wake up! And again, it's not just karate...ummm hello?


Many are looking for answers in other arts, like Chinese arts, trying to put the pieces back together... It's not something I made up.... ]

How ironic you can mention people getting sold into a bill of goods when youre doing the exact same thing merely regurgitating the xenophobic reasoning of chinese teachers who think they have the missing link to the "real stuff":rolleyes:




You can see even the top people in Okinowa trying to do the same thing... And it should be no surprise to anyone who has done the arts, and very clear to anyone who has done any research... ]

They are doing historical research not looking for montezumas gold man, When you consider whats happened to Kung fu during the past century its laughable at best to think they would go find something more from an art thats nearly become entirely ruined. Then on top of that when they already have a thriving competitve platform what need would they have for kung fu? As i said the only thing that matters is fighting and karate has already surpassed traditional kung fu in that respect. So what answers do they need with that being said? I can see the desire to dig back into karates roots or to cross train. But to reason there is this big missing piece to the puzzle doesnt hold any weight.



Again this is not just limited to karate, but karate has been affected since it's outset, no--and follow along now, not because I said so but because of all the evidence I wrote about which apparently zoomed right over your head...

Evidence? All youve done is reasoned that because the people you've met didn't know what they were doing that must mean its like that every where lol. That and your belief your Wing chun training qualfies you to break down different styles. Again you need to differentiate between opinion and proof.


There's a logical statement... Karate couldn't exist if not for karate.. Yes very enlightening../QUOTE]

Generally when you're trying to be a smart ass you wanna come off as clever not like you struggle with reading comprehension:p. My point was to show your contradiction. If the classical way was largely as you claim then there wouldnt have been modern knock down. The men like Oyama would have been completely inept and wouldnt have the slighest clue as how to creat a functional realistic art or how to further it with new methods.


[QUOTE=YungChun;1046014]You can't really use those moves from the kata in fighting

You dont say? Who would have thought you dont fight like you move in a form? Wing Chun practioners dont spar with their feet pigeon toed and their hands chambered high either you know?:eek:

What moves exactly?I i can pick a form and point to techniques that work

[YungChun]

Lol oh come on the only common ground goju and wing chun have is they both have bridging in their system and even then their approaches are very different. Trying to reason a wc practioner could break down fukien crane, five ancestor and hung gar is wishful thinking much less an off shoot from these styles that is mixed with non chinese arts.

Right well go tell that to all the folks who keep asking me and other CMA what its for.... Very different? Depends on what you mean by very.. Why not explain the differences?

I for one learned way more about karate in my CMA studies..and as I said, it's the bigshots in karate who are looking at CMA, it actually makes a lot of sense if you have the intelligence to open your mind and look at those arts from where karate came from in the first place..



Well you havent explained why its wrong in detail and have relied on little else besides your self proclaimed knowledge and supposedly everyone else :rolleyes: As i Said show me the proper drills in kung fu or are you not even aware of which ones karate got them from?

Where do you get this "it's wrong" from? It's missing...

If I have to explain what's wrong in the clip I posted and in other similar clips then you don't get it, or don't want to get it..

They train one way to fight another.. Any idiot can see it and it's common knowledge and again not just a problem in karate...but certainly a problem there which you clearly are in denial about.. All you have to do is watch what the top people in these arts are doing to see the truth, or talk to them as I have... Man you are thick headed..



How ironic you can mention people getting sold into a bill of goods when youre doing the exact same thing merely regurgitating the xenophobic reasoning of chinese teachers who think they have the missing link to the "real stuff":rolleyes:

I'm doing what? I'm simply saying they train one way to fight another... They don't know what the forms are for nor what the core idea of the art is...

Ok you do go ahead and explain it.. You probably learned more from this forum about it than in the dojo... That's probably why your here in the first place...

I did karate too not just Chun..



They are doing historical research not looking for montezumas gold man, When you consider whats happened to Kung fu during the past century its laughable at best to think they would go find something more from an art thats nearly become entirely ruined. Then on top of that when they already have a thriving competitve platform what need would they have for kung fu? As i said the only thing that matters is fighting and karate has already surpassed traditional kung fu in that respect. So what answers do they need with that being said? I can see the desire to dig back into karates roots or to cross train. But to reason there is this big missing piece to the puzzle doesnt hold any weight.


Then go tell them not to look to kung-fu mr Gogu on the Chun forum..

I could care less how thriving their play fighting is.. They have no understanding nor do they use the roots of the art.. It's common knowledge..



Evidence? All youve done is reasoned that because the people you've met didn't know what they were doing that must mean its like that every where lol.


Yes, I've reasoned that if the top people don't get it (and say so) then there is a problem..crazy huh?

Everyone is aware of the fact... Except you apparently..

You're logic is to ignore the fact that the top people are asking these questions, looking to CMA for answers---and that others (who we don't know) mostly do understand the roots of these arts. Makes no sense at all..

That video I posted is of the highest ranking Uechi guy in the US. The highest ranking folks in these arts are clueless... All you have to do is look at them! As I said you don't need to be a professional shovel carrier for the circus to know crap when you see it..

Go show me the group that actually uses the close range bridging of the art in fighting...and who's group's seniors don't keep shaking their heads at the idiotic drills and bunkai..jumping over swords..



You dont say? Who would have thought you dont fight like you move in a form? Wing Chun practioners dont spar with their feet pigeon toed and their hands chambered high either you know?:eek:
What moves exactly?I i can pick a form and point to techniques that work

The moves in Chun forms are actually trained in ChiSao.. Not the case in karate..although they have started trying to create similar sticking drills based on what other CMA do, but there is no real core or understanding.

But prove me wrong let's see the clip.. Show all the examples of karate with her roots intact or do you see them in the clip I posted?

In any case keep reading this forum and learning about the roots of karate dewd! Nothing wrong with that it's what a lot of people have done and are doing still..

[goju]

Right well go tell that to all the folks who keep asking me and other CMA what its for....
Well if you say its true it must be! Wow another gentleman on an anonymous forum making various claims. You don't see that every day:eek:



Where do you get this "it's wrong" from? It's missing... They train one way to fight another.. Any idiot can see it and it's common knowledge and again not just a problem in karate...but certainly a problem there which you clearly are in denial about.. All you have to do is watch what the top people in these arts are doing to see the truth, or talk to them as I have... Man you are thick headed..

Its common knowledge arts from the orient dont fight as they do in a form of a compliant partner drill. Why on earth you think this is information privy to a few and why you feel the need to babble on about the obvious is amusing.



I'm doing what? I'm simply saying they train one way to fight another... They don't know what the forms are for nor what the core idea of the art is... ..

What they should be doing is studying your branch of Wing chun. I hear when you master it you know the secrets of every other art!:eek: That and you get a nifty decoder ring with your completion of biu jee



Ok you do go ahead and explain it.. You probably learned more from this forum about it than in the dojo... That's probably why your here in the first place.....
Care to come back down to earth and speak earthling for us?


Then go tell them not to look to kung-fu mr Gogu on the Chun forum..
Means little to me if someone is interested in the history of their style.


I could care less how thriving their play fighting is.. They have no understanding nor do they use the roots of the art.. It's common knowledge....
Yet they are using martial arts as they were intended to be used for while the guys who claim to have the good stuff never show it.

Lets humour you for a second. Let us say they have the real understanding of Kung fu. What is the point of really understanding your art when you never use it and when you do use it , it looks like this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuUD1Az4E08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG_n7I7QUN0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0&feature=related

Lets not forget as this subforumn has shown nobody can agree on how to do these real techniques correctly.

Yeaaah and Karate is missing out on aaaaall of this?:D


Everyone is aware of the fact... Except you apparently..

You're logic is to ignore the fact that the top people are asking these questions, looking to CMA for answers---and that others (who we don't know) mostly do understand the roots of these arts. Makes no sense at all..

That video I posted is of the highest ranking Uechi guy in the US. The highest ranking folks in these arts are clueless... All you have to do is look at them! As I said you don't need to be a professional shovel carrier for the circus to know crap when you see it.. ..

I asked for a technical discussion on this subject and you've failed to provide this in the least despite your claims of a wealth of knowledge.Why bother keeping the act up?


Go show me the group that actually uses the close range bridging of the art in fighting...and who's group's seniors don't keep shaking their heads at the idiotic drills and bunkai..jumping over swords....
http://www.sports-hacks.com/Uploads/Jimmy%20Tran/ivesound01.gif
Yep look at that lack of understanding! Funny too as this is one of the only examples of a trap working in a live environment against a quality opponent and it came from someone who did a non chinese art.



The moves in Chun forms are actually trained in ChiSao.. Not the case in karate
although they have started trying to create similar sticking drills based on what other CMA do, but there is no real core or understanding.....
Yet as those videos show the real practioners apparently couldnt even throw a punch correctly much less stick to save their lives.


Look this is really just silly if you want live in your fantasy land go nuts but youre clearly not willing to dicuss this in a remotely rational or technical matter. If you want to continue to repost the kool laid drinking delusional babble that some crack pot beat into your brain be my guest.
:p