A Serious Discussion about the Argument.

[MightyB]

Let's be honest. Does it really matter? I mean - does it really matter if we perceive effectiveness in a martial art? 'Cuz - to be totally honest... the notion of martial arts for real self defense is a little ridiculous. I'm being serious here.

When the cr@p hits the fan, and we're talking a real life and death situation - forced entry, armed robbery, car jacking, serial killer, shooting spree, hostage situation, kidnapping, etc -

- mental preparation, an escape plan, mental toughness and a desire to survive and escape, fear of what the criminal intends to do more than fear of immediate injury (since your best chance for escape is at the initial crime scene - you have no chance if you cooperate and let them transport you to crime scene #2, or let them bind you in some way). This is real self defense.


It's not forms, it's not sport training, it's not TMA in any way. Here's another point, if it involves gadgets, it's not going to work. If it is specialized "for women" or "women's self defense" - not only is that sexist, it's not going to work (if it's not good enough for a man, it's not good enough for a woman either - besides, self defense is about mental preparation and mental toughness, not gender)

My point is - does it matter if we think most TCMA'ers are poseurs because they'd get their arses handed to them in a sporting environment? And does it matter if TCMA'ers dislike MMA'ers because they "have no class" or "sense of lineage" and "haven't seen the real kung fu"?

I say let it be man - just let it be. MA means something different to everybody. I like a good workout and a competitive environment to relieve stress. Some people like meditation and choreographed movements to relieve stress.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

[Lucas]

never!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;):p

[Dragonzbane76]

Let's be honest. Does it really matter? I mean - does it really matter if we perceive effectiveness in a martial art? 'Cuz - to be totally honest... the notion of martial arts for real self defense is a little ridiculous. I'm being serious here.

When the cr@p hits the fan, and we're talking a real life and death situation - forced entry, armed robbery, car jacking, serial killer, shooting spree, hostage situation, kidnapping, etc -

- mental preparation, an escape plan, mental toughness and a desire to survive and escape, fear of what the criminal intends to do more than fear of immediate injury (since your best chance for escape is at the initial crime scene - you have no chance if you cooperate and let them transport you to crime scene #2, or let them bind you in some way). This is real self defense.


It's not forms, it's not sport training, it's not TMA in any way. Here's another point, if it involves gadgets, it's not going to work. If it is specialized "for women" or "women's self defense" - not only is that sexist, it's not going to work (if it's not good enough for a man, it's not good enough for a woman either - besides, self defense is about mental preparation and mental toughness, not gender)

My point is - does it matter if we think most TCMA'ers are poseurs because they'd get their arses handed to them in a sporting environment? And does it matter if TCMA'ers dislike MMA'ers because they "have no class" or "sense of lineage" and "haven't seen the real kung fu"?

I say let it be man - just let it be. MA means something different to everybody. I like a good workout and a competitive environment to relieve stress. Some people like meditation and choreographed movements to relieve stress.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

Do you want true self defense???????

BUY A GUN.................END OF DISCUSSION.

It's proven they work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's agree to disagree and move on.
Where's the fun in that ???

[Violent Designs]

the best form of self defense is self offense, so to not be serial killed, you have to become a serial killer before everyone else.

MY LOGIC IS UNFALLIBLE.

[Badger]

Learn to use guns...Learn to use guns under stress...TRain your body to be strong and use techs that are simple & work...this helps you retain your gun...If you are in Shape you can run away if you have to...you can chase if you have to....you may have to defend with your hands to get to your gun...Use what works & get a gun....

When In Doubt I Whip It Out......

[hskwarrior]

First line of defense = awareness, avoidance.

Second line of defense = firearms.

Third line of defense = projectiles.

Fourth line of defense = hand held ballistic or cutting weapons and full contact training with them.

Fifth line of defense = fighting back based on hard, MMA style fight training.

Sixth line of defense = strength developed by resistive training.

Seventh line of defense = athletic ability developed from sports.

Eighth line of defense = endurance and speed developed from running training.

Ninth line of defense = agility developed from gymastics, dance or ballet.

Last line of defense = TMA training.

thats right save the best for last. :D

[KC Elbows]

It's worth noting that Bullshido implemented a tag to show fight experience because most of the loudest, most obnoxious anti-tma folk were backing out of challenges because they were actually completely unqualified martial artists and were making challenges with potential psychos.

It's also worth pointing out that if I have a problem with the course of kung fu, and I'm a kung fu guy, the solution is not me telling you what to do, but to not only reform my line, but share those reforms. Until we see books, articles, and websites from myself, MightyB, Masterkiller, Lucas, Drake, Dragonzbane, et al, that give useful info backed by usage, the solution is not me telling them to do it for me.

And if my style is, say, choy li fut, and there is not one example of someone using choi li fut throwing methodology online, while there is of chen style and SC and Chang style, I should not run around talking about how, based on choi li fut, throwing in cma is not practiced.

Further, if I went to one school, or solely attended kung fu tournament based schools, or in some other way failed to do research, I'll not assume others didn't.

If my kung fu teacher said weights were bad, I'll try not to forget that Wai Lun Choi's guys used weights in training all the time.

I had five ma teachers in my life, one Japanese, he was a nice guy and taught well enough and made no claims, one American and a nutcase doing a *******ized version of tang soo doe who talked about how bad everyone else was, and three kung fu teachers. The best of those kung fu teachers never bad mouthed other styles, fought sanshou in his youth, and considered sparring a standard part of training for those who wanted to do that, as well as actually having trained in a lot of styles including muay thai. The next best liked to train boxing and bjj as well, and had nothing against weights or modern training methods, and advocated sparring, though grew in his ability to coach it.

If this does not match your experience, then I don't care if you claim that everyone says they found the real deal, I flat out did better than you, whether through luck or, in most cases, design, so you might be better not generalizing your experiences to me, and I won't pretend ground fighting doesn't matter, mkay?

[Badger]

Check out "Die Less Often" Series with Gabe Suarez & Crafty Dog.... & Get A Gun...

[Badger]

KC ,you need to say all that is a rhyme so i can understand it...

[KC Elbows]

First line of defense = awareness, avoidance.

Second line of defense = firearms.

Third line of defense = projectiles.

Fourth line of defense = hand held ballistic or cutting weapons and full contact training with them.

Fifth line of defense = fighting back based on hard, MMA style fight training.

Sixth line of defense = strength developed by resistive training.

Seventh line of defense = athletic ability developed from sports.

Eighth line of defense = endurance and speed developed from running training.

Ninth line of defense = agility developed from gymastics, dance or ballet.

Last line of defense = TMA training.

I forgot to mention, If I'm a little person with strong family ties to magicians, psychics, and other circus folk, I'll troll the internet while smoking cigars with the young carnies and telling them about the good old days porking Margaret Hamilton from a step ladder on the set of Wizard of Oz.

[KC Elbows]

KC ,you need to say all that is a rhyme so i can understand it...

You don't want to start all that again!:D

Good to see you, Badger!

[Badger]

LOL...nice seeing ya brother..

[Badger]

Just do it like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_stGT-SoJoI

[Lucas]

the true purpose of martial arts:

getting laid

anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying, wrong, or a woman. (women do it so that guys will want to screw them and so that they can say no and be all hot and fit and **** us off.)

self defense and murder and all that other cool stuff is just an awesome byproduct of practicing martial arts.

[David Jamieson]

you either get it, or you don't.

end of story.

[Violent Designs]

i practice the martial arts so i can feed the animals

[ManilaCrane]

I practice Kung Fu because of three things:

1.) 90% of my friends think i look like Bruce Lee

2.) Street Fighter is an awesome franchise

3.) To master the mind, body, and spirit.

:p

[EarthDragon]

I forgot to mention, If I'm a little person with strong family ties to magicians, psychics, and other circus folk, I'll troll the internet while smoking cigars with the young carnies and telling them about the good old days porking Margaret Hamilton from a step ladder on the set of Wizard of Oz.

LOL not thats funny

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It's worth noting that Bullshido implemented a tag to show fight experience because most of the loudest, most obnoxious anti-tma folk were backing out of challenges because they were actually completely unqualified martial artists and were making challenges with potential psychos.

It's also worth pointing out that if I have a problem with the course of kung fu, and I'm a kung fu guy, the solution is not me telling you what to do, but to not only reform my line, but share those reforms. Until we see books, articles, and websites from myself, MightyB, Masterkiller, Lucas, Drake, Dragonzbane, et al, that give useful info backed by usage, the solution is not me telling them to do it for me.

And if my style is, say, choy li fut, and there is not one example of someone using choi li fut throwing methodology online, while there is of chen style and SC and Chang style, I should not run around talking about how, based on choi li fut, throwing in cma is not practiced.

Further, if I went to one school, or solely attended kung fu tournament based schools, or in some other way failed to do research, I'll not assume others didn't.

If my kung fu teacher said weights were bad, I'll try not to forget that Wai Lun Choi's guys used weights in training all the time.

I had five ma teachers in my life, one Japanese, he was a nice guy and taught well enough and made no claims, one American and a nutcase doing a *******ized version of tang soo doe who talked about how bad everyone else was, and three kung fu teachers. The best of those kung fu teachers never bad mouthed other styles, fought sanshou in his youth, and considered sparring a standard part of training for those who wanted to do that, as well as actually having trained in a lot of styles including muay thai. The next best liked to train boxing and bjj as well, and had nothing against weights or modern training methods, and advocated sparring, though grew in his ability to coach it.

If this does not match your experience, then I don't care if you claim that everyone says they found the real deal, I flat out did better than you, whether through luck or, in most cases, design, so you might be better not generalizing your experiences to me, and I won't pretend ground fighting doesn't matter, mkay?

This is way too rational, it will never work here!:D All jokes aside, great post. There are always going to be assumptions made on here, many of which are ignorant and unfounded, but it is the internet after all. You were fortunate to have the instructors you did, many are not. Sometimes I think this is where the bad mouthing comes into play. No one wants to admit they spent ten years of their life training in a poor system, I know because I spent two years training in a poor Karate McDojo. The one good thing I got from it was I appreciated the good instructors I had in Pai Lum, Muay Thai, and Boxing. They were all competent instructors, all had fought in their younger days, and all taught that learning different systems or styles was beneficial to one's growth in the martial arts.

That being said, I always wondered if people would be so brash if we were all in the same room together instead of behind a computer screen. Makes you think.

[KC Elbows]

I spent seven years in a bad system where we were told(as long as we were one of them) that we were the uber deadly and superior to normal folk.

The best solution to running around telling everyone you have the answer to all problems is usually not running around telling people you have the answer to all problems. Countering tma cultishness with mma cultishness is not doing any favors for anyone. Being socially capable is the height of human self defense, to undermine that by teaching people to treat others like they are less sophisticated or healthy(as some sifus do) or undermining that by teaching people that they can be db'ish based on other people having wrong assumptions(when everyone has wrong assumptions) is a terrible disservice to one's students as people.

I will not cease this rationality without the intervention of pics! And NOT MK pics, his disturb the force.

[Dragonzbane76]

Countering tma cultishness with mma cultishness is not doing any favors for anyone. Being socially capable is the height of human self defense, to undermine that by teaching people to treat others like they are less sophisticated or healthy(as some sifus do) or undermining that by teaching people that they can be db'ish based on other people having wrong assumptions(when everyone has wrong assumptions) is a terrible disservice to one's students as people.

agree with you. both sides have there douchbags for sure. My thoughts are if your a teacher then you should let you student grow and not force thoughts on them and let them make the decisions themselves.

[KC Elbows]

agree with you. both sides have there douchbags for sure. My thoughts are if your a teacher then you should let you student grow and not force thoughts on them and let them make the decisions themselves.

Even when they're hot babes with daddy issues.:D

[MightyB]

agree with you. both sides have there douchbags for sure. My thoughts are if your a teacher then you should let you student grow and not force thoughts on them and let them make the decisions themselves.


The best solution to running around telling everyone you have the answer to all problems is usually not running around telling people you have the answer to all problems. Countering tma cultishness with mma cultishness is not doing any favors for anyone. Being socially capable is the height of human self defense, to undermine that by teaching people to treat others like they are less sophisticated or healthy(as some sifus do) or undermining that by teaching people that they can be db'ish based on other people having wrong assumptions(when everyone has wrong assumptions) is a terrible disservice to one's students as people.

Both of you are scaring me with your civility and rationality of these posts. Would the real Dragonzbane and KC Elbows please stand up? :D

[KC Elbows]

I'd teach you my posting method, but you could never get good at it. Too slow from weight training.:D

[Reyth]

My Tai Chi instructor also taught Kung Fu. He called the Kung Fu "hot style" and the Tai Chi "cool style".

I got the distinct impression that the key and underlying power of the hot style really originates from the cool style; i.e. the secret power underlying Kung Fu is Tai Chi. He actually stated that he taught Kung Fu to make money (because of popular interest) but Tai Chi was his core art. The funny thing is that he built a reputation as a master Kung Fu practitioner and nobody knew he actually did Tai Chi!

He pointed out the difficulty of both styles:

A) The cool style requires total relaxation to allow the power to be expressed; short of that you are using the "hot style" energy which will be compromised. This is very hard to do in a combat situation.

B) The hot style requires a high level of agressiveness to "blow out" your opponent, otherwise you get overcome.

I think there are many videos of MA practitioners being overcome by MMA followers. I am curious to see examples of MMA being overcome by proper excution of MA...

Does anyone have video links of this?

[Dragonzbane76]

Both of you are scaring me with your civility and rationality of these posts. Would the real Dragonzbane and KC Elbows please stand up?

:p.................

[dimethylsea]

i practice the martial arts so i can feed the animals

There is something to this. One of my students (the senior girl in the class) says she does bagua "to feed her alligators".

This is an allusion to something the horror writer Stephen King said in an essay..

"The mythic horror movie, like the sick joke, has a dirty job to do. It deliberately appeals to all
that is worst in us. It is morbidity unchained, our most base instincts let free, our nastiest fantasies realized . . . and it all happens, fittingly enough, in the dark. For those reasons, good liberals often shy away from horror films. For myself, I like to see the most aggressive of them – Dawn of the Dead, for instance – as lifting a trap door in the civilized forebrain and throwing a basket of raw meat to the hungry alligators swimming around in that subterranean river beneath.

Why bother? Because it keeps them from getting out, man. It keeps them down there and me up here. It was Lennon and McCartney who said that all you need is love, and I would agree with that.

As long as you keep the gators fed. "

[SPJ]

I say let it be man - just let it be. MA means something different to everybody. I like a good workout and a competitive environment to relieve stress. Some people like meditation and choreographed movements to relieve stress.



yes let it be or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SgDoypXcI

hwat wil be will be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ltYApM_tk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8OB9EpS6zA

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

I think it's time for another serious argument about the discussion.

[KC Elbows]

Maybe a diatribe about the monologue would be more in order, followed by a rant about the non-sequitor. But we can discuss it. I'm open to dialogue.

But no contradiction!

[Yum Cha]

HEY! I have a RANT!

(Without conflict, there is no story. :D)

Sure, there is a lot of ragging, but good gear does make it to the page on a regular basis.

Thing is, by nature, martial artists are a competitive bunch. You go out there, and you're all alone, no matter what your style, or level of combat. You have to learn to dig deep, and it makes you stronger in lots of ways. The rest of the discussion is simply about level and achievement. Who's dog is bigger.

And of course, we all know, some learn MA because they love the sport and eat it up. Some learn MA because they are weak and lack confidence. Others just like fitness with an edge.

Oh yea, the getting laid part, still waiting on that one....

[KC Elbows]

Technically that was an articulate announcement more than a rant, perhaps even a monologue.

Anyway, this is a discussion about the argument, so I'd say your traditional monologue is not the real traditional monologue, but more, glorified interjection of a flashy nature!

Take that!

[Yum Cha]

Technically that was an articulate announcement more than a rant, perhaps even a monologue.

Anyway, this is a discussion about the argument, so I'd say your traditional monologue is not the real traditional monologue, but more, glorified interjection of a flashy nature!

Take that!

I'm sorry, if you can't see the essential nature of a rant in that, well, you obviously just haven't moved past the monologue stage enough to understand a proper rant.

I can move eyes over the interwebs! Cop THAT!

[SPJ]

my argument is

whatever will be will be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21StYbyqG4

---

[Kansuke]

Let's be honest. Does it really matter? I mean - does it really matter if we perceive effectiveness in a martial art? 'Cuz - to be totally honest... the notion of martial arts for real self defense is a little ridiculous. I'm being serious here.

When the cr@p hits the fan, and we're talking a real life and death situation - forced entry, armed robbery, car jacking, serial killer, shooting spree, hostage situation, kidnapping, etc -

- mental preparation, an escape plan, mental toughness and a desire to survive and escape, fear of what the criminal intends to do more than fear of immediate injury (since your best chance for escape is at the initial crime scene - you have no chance if you cooperate and let them transport you to crime scene #2, or let them bind you in some way). This is real self defense.


It's not forms, it's not sport training, it's not TMA in any way. Here's another point, if it involves gadgets, it's not going to work. If it is specialized "for women" or "women's self defense" - not only is that sexist, it's not going to work (if it's not good enough for a man, it's not good enough for a woman either - besides, self defense is about mental preparation and mental toughness, not gender)

My point is - does it matter if we think most TCMA'ers are poseurs because they'd get their arses handed to them in a sporting environment? And does it matter if TCMA'ers dislike MMA'ers because they "have no class" or "sense of lineage" and "haven't seen the real kung fu"?

I say let it be man - just let it be. MA means something different to everybody. I like a good workout and a competitive environment to relieve stress. Some people like meditation and choreographed movements to relieve stress.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.


This post threatens to destroy all MA forums everywhere.