The Ten Elements Of Choy Lay Fut [Archive]

extrajoseph

10-04-2010, 03:35 AM

The Ten Elements of Choy Lay Fut

The Choy Lay Fut system utilizes what is dubbed the "ten elements" to form the basis for its devastating striking techniques. Each element has unique characteristics and methods of use. It is these ten elements that make up the basis of Choy Lay Fut's techniques. Variations of these elements can be found in every empty hand form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTBbKucwdI

I am sure you have an explanation, but I think in the video, the first two elements, Kum and Na are not done correctly. The Kum is more like a Dang Jab while the Na is more like a Bil Gi. The intention of Kum Na is to deflect, catch, grab and retaliate but they are not showed in the exercise I am afraid.

No disrespect is intended, it is just my humble opinion for the sake of discussions.

yutyeesam

10-04-2010, 09:33 AM

I am sure you have an explanation, but I think in the video, the first two elements, Kum and Na are not done correctly. The Kum is more like a Dang Jab while the Na is more like a Bil Gi. The intention of Kum Na is to deflect, catch, grab and retaliate but they are not showed in the exercise I am afraid.

No disrespect is intended, it is just my humble opinion for the sake of discussions.

Shaolindynasty will have a better explanation than I, but I can try to explain.

Kum Jeong is covering palm, see this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_kum.jpg
It's a slapping palm deflection in its application, even though in the air it seems like a pushing strike. But even in the palm deflection, there's still a punishing quality to it, it's not the run of the mill "slap-block".

For Na, or Chuen La, it is piercing through-uprooting-deflecting, as seen in this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_na.jpg
It may appear as a Bil Jee strike, but it's more about the forearm rotation for the deflection. I've noticed a lot of different hand shapes for Chuen La in different lineages of CLF, but the application was all the same.

XJ - you mentioned awhile back that everyone has a misconception of the 10 Elements/Seeds, and that you have a very different conception of what the 10 Elements are. Any ideas about how the 10 Elements you know turned into the 10 Elements you see in a lot of the other lineages?

-123

hskwarrior

10-04-2010, 10:54 AM

sorry SD,

But, EXTRAJOSEPH, you are completely FULL OF SH!T!!!!!!! I saw you on the forum looking at the thread. I guess you view yourself very highly to feel you never have to answer anyone's questions. i can see you feel we all must listen to you. now thats funny cause the people on the forum are recognizing the fact that you are very biased and your only mission is to spread DISINFORMATION to try and keep your Chan Yiu Chi ahead of everyone.

you're a joke.

Shaolindynasty

10-04-2010, 02:52 PM

extrajoesph

These are commonly practiced variations by our school of the concepts of the 10 elements. For the most part yutyeesam's explanation is correct.

Kum is meant as a deflection.

As far as the element shown as Na. It's short for Chuen Na which actually consists of 2 parts the uprooting shooting arm bridge (chuen) and the controlling/grabbing aspect (na).

nospam

10-04-2010, 03:35 PM

Is that you in the video?

nospam.
:cool:

Shaolindynasty

10-04-2010, 03:36 PM

yes it is me in the video

CLFNole

10-04-2010, 05:11 PM

From the way it is filmed I can see what XJ is saying. The "cum" looks like a "pak sao" to me, whereas I thought cum as in "cum jeung" the palm should come downward a bit and be horizontal instead of vertical. Cum - cover

The "na" does look like a biu jee but I think that is because it is just shown without blocking an arm. If you showed it against someone I think he would have known it was "chuen la".

Good demo though.

Shaolindynasty

10-04-2010, 07:23 PM

The "cum" looks like a "pak sao" to me, whereas I thought cum as in "cum jeung" the palm should come downward a bit and be horizontal instead of vertical. Cum - cover

We do it a few different ways. vertical and horizontal. Vertical we make contact then press down.

I think you guys would recongize these as the same if you saw application of them against an opponent. The purpose of this video was as a reference for my students. I just thought I'd share it here.

nospam

10-04-2010, 07:30 PM

I can see a fundamental difference in playing the tsap choi. Always good to see other CLF in action though. Get sick and tired of watching pattern after pattern, so good on you and your familia for putting more out there.

nospam.
:cool:

extrajoseph

10-04-2010, 09:57 PM

Shaolindynasty will have a better explanation than I, but I can try to explain.

Kum Jeong is covering palm, see this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_kum.jpg
It's a slapping palm deflection in its application, even though in the air it seems like a pushing strike. But even in the palm deflection, there's still a punishing quality to it, it's not the run of the mill "slap-block".

For Na, or Chuen La, it is piercing through-uprooting-deflecting, as seen in this application:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_na.jpg
It may appear as a Bil Jee strike, but it's more about the forearm rotation for the deflection. I've noticed a lot of different hand shapes for Chuen La in different lineages of CLF, but the application was all the same.

-123

I can see where the difference of opinions came from.

For me Kum (Cantonese for Chin or Qin 擒) means to seize or to trap, and na 拿 means to lock or to break. Whereas you guys interpreted Kum and Na as two different types of block and deflection, so there is no Na, only Kum to set up the trap.

So how do you guys practice the Chin Na 擒拿 techniques of CLF?

yutyeesam

10-04-2010, 10:31 PM

I can see where the difference of opinions came from.

For me Kum (Cantonese for Chin or Qin 擒) means to seize or to trap, and na 拿 means to lock or to break. Whereas you guys interpreted Kum and Na as two different types of block and deflection, so there is no Na, only Kum to set up the trap.

So how do you guys practice the Chin Na 擒拿 techniques of CLF?

Perhaps CLFNole can explain better than I, but we typically practice the La element in conjunction to Chuen. So the Chuen La is a deflection (Chuen), immediately followed by La (grab). It's treated almost like one technique. Similar can be said of our Poon-La combo.

As far as practicing Kum La techniques, it is probably very different for each school. First, we learn the fundamental principles of body torque and leverage mechanics from static positions as individual locks. Then we learn the the principles of its application, ie, must stun the body first with Tek/Da in order to land any sort of Kum La, and even those are pretty low percentage.

As an interesting academic exercise in understanding flow, energy, and mechanical structure we practice and learn how to block and reverse the Kum La.

Then we find them in the forms' applications.

Honestly, though, I think Ju Jutsu has a more organized and systematic approach towards learning the science of joint manipulation and leverage. So my teachers have taken some of their pedagogy and applied it to the CLF curriculum.

Do you practice and teach it in more of the "poetic" (ie random) Chinese way, where it pops up here and there, or do you have a hierarchical curriculum that builds the foundation of the Kum La?

-123

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 12:48 AM

Hi 123,

Chuan La (Chuan Lao in Mandarin and written as 穿撈, meaning to penetrate and to fish or to pull out) is different to Kum Na (Qin Na in Mandarin and written as 擒拿), they are two different techniques. I guess you could also meant to Chuan Na 穿拿 (penetrate to block and then grab to lock) but in the video the Chinese characters are written as Kum Na but what the exercise intended was something similar to Chuan La or Chuan Na, hence the confusion.

As far as I know, CLF has a systematic way to study Qin Na (Kum Na in Cantonese) and it starts with the understanding how the human anatomy functions especially the limits of the rotation of our joints. The idea is by controlling the first gates one can control the whole of the body of an opponent.

To free oneself, if the first gate (eg the wrist) is being controlled, then use the second gate (eg the elbows) to free yourself and if the second gate is being controlled then use the third gate (eg the shoulder) to do the same and if the third gate is being controlled then use the body or go back to use the first gate to free yourself and so forth.

In order to do this one's whole body must be filled with Dantian Qi and always be upright ("centrally correct" or Zhong Zheng 中正 in Chinese, ie to follow the line of the gravitational forces at all times), that is the body is not broken up into parts to be Na by your opponent but functions as a unified whole and that is where the internal forms of CLF (eg. Lohan 18 Hands) come in handy.

The problem with CLF is many of the students of the past (and present) leaved their teachers too early to start up their own schools or even their own branches before learning the full curriculum properly and then found themselves later on having to take on techniques from other styles to make up for the short fall. You mentioned Ju Jutsu to replace "CLF Qinna Shenshou Fa" 蔡李佛擒拿身手法 (the CLF methods of Chin Na using the body and the hands) is a good example.

Of course we can always learn from other styles but one must learn what one has already fully before venturing out to learn from others. We have to ask ourself, how many students from one school or one branch are encouraged to learn from other CLF teachers from other schools or branches? None or very few, I am afraid, so we are all like frogs sitting in a well.

XJ

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 06:30 AM

ribbitt...ribbitt....ribbit......check out how i chop choy this fly with my tongue :D

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 06:45 AM

The sound of one fat frog at the bottom of his well:

ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk...ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk...ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbittfcuk....ribbitt up....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....

:D

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 07:02 AM

The sound of one fat frog at the bottom of his well:

ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....
ribbittshut...ribbittthe....ribbit****....ribbittu p....
ribbittfut...ribbittsan....ribbittis....ribbittthe ...ribbittbest....

The actions of a BITTER chan family DISINFORMATIONIST that is filled with more mental GARBAGE than real, effective, physical skill. There are two things i'm willing to bet EJ. 1) YOU NEVER had a fight in your life. 2) in your mind you really believe your own BS.

It sure is really simple for you to comment, mislead, interject, cover up, and redirect. Yet you have NO PROOF that you are worth a grain of sand. Pacifism is your best friend. you must be christian too cause the CLF people of YOUR lineage would never strike back. they would rather sit down over a cup of tea and work on the cultivation of your inner self and practice qigong forms.

are you upset that no one believes you anymore & that people are seeing thru your nonsense? IN the history of CLF time has proven CLF has had its fair share of INTELLECTUALS and fighters. where do you think YOU fit in EJ? i know!!!!! ;)

OH! in regards to the highlighted areas, YOU don't have to tell me that. I KNOW FUT SAN IS THE BEST. In the history of CLF Fut San was the most famous branch of the CLF system.

Olaf

10-05-2010, 07:51 AM

Nice video

yutyeesam

10-05-2010, 07:55 AM

The problem with CLF is many of the students of the past (and present) leaved their teachers too early to start up their own schools or even their own branches before learning the full curriculum properly and then found themselves later on having to take on techniques from other styles to make up for the short fall. You mentioned Ju Jutsu to replace "CLF Qinna Shenshou Fa" 蔡李佛擒拿身手法 (the CLF methods of Chin Na using the body and the hands) is a good example.

Of course we can always learn from other styles but one must learn what one has already fully before venturing out to learn from others. We have to ask ourself, how many students from one school or one branch are encouraged to learn from other CLF teachers from other schools or branches? None or very few, I am afraid, so we are all like frogs sitting in a well.

XJ

Hi ExtraJoseph,
I understand what you're saying. It depends on what the practitioner is after - adherence to a style, or to cross train with specialists, to refine skill sets not commonly covered. The former is easier for most folks. So instead of taking long, expensive trips to China or Australia, you could learn essentially the same material right at home.

The beauty of learning from Ju Jutsu specialists, is that they are actively pressure testing their Kum La techniques, quite often with 100% resistance. So in the realm of combat, they probably have a better understanding, and have a whole series of simplified technical and sparring drills to prepare you to be a high level grappler.

Even if you trace CLF all the way back to its contemporary direct descendants, I'm willing to bet that their ability to apply Kum La as effectively as a high level Ju Jutsu teacher in America is not as strong.

And that is OK.

I totally understand the Chinese pride of having everything come from China, but I got over that when I realized western Boxers have amazing drills to learn from. Muay Thai coaches have brilliant drills to quickly improve certain attributes. Escrima has an unparalleled pedagogy on developing weapon skills against full resistance. JuJutsu has incredible ways to ease someone into mastery of locks and positioning. Western wrestling has a lot to teach going from the (no-gi) clinch to takedown. Fencing has a lot to offer to develop skill in timing. Heck, even Olympic Taekwondo has some good drills to help improve kicking speed.

I am not advocating being jack of all trades, master of none. I'm simply identifying which attributes you want to take to a higher level, and what the most efficient path to that is. To use an analogy, I don't go to a Latin language teacher to learn German, even though German is a Latin based language. I go to a German language teacher.

Understand that I'm not trying to take anything away from CLF, I'm just a big believer in cross training to maximize one's performance and attributes. Chan Heung certainly did! :)

-123

CLFNole

10-05-2010, 07:59 AM

XJ:

I allows thought of cum la as a concept in this case grappling if you will. But are you saying that what most consider "cum" and "na/la" of the 10 seeds are the same thing? I was under the impression "cum" and "na/la" as in the seeds were more specific techniques whereas cum la/na is more concept oriented (meaning broader in scope if you will). Maybe this comes down to you thinking of the 10 seeds more as concepts and others more as techniques?

I agree with what you said about people learning and leaving.

Peace.

yutyeesam

10-05-2010, 08:12 AM

I agree with what you said about people learning and leaving.

Peace.

And now more than ever, in the age of information being at your finger tips. Knowledge/info is easily gained, and disposed.

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 12:36 PM

Hi Frank,

I know how you feel about me and how Futsan is the best, there is no need to keep on ribbitting, it is very boring. :(

Hi CLFNole,

By the title of the video - the 10 "Jue" 訣 or the 10 rhyming formulae of CLF, I think the 10 seeds are meant to be conceptually orientated and I took it that way.

So Kum should have movements that covers across the body and Na should show some form of grabbing and locking, but I didn't see any.

Hi 123,

As I said earlier, I have no problem with cross training with other styles, but I can see we can cross train with each other within the same style as well, but do we do this? The answer is a clear "No".

Can you imagine a Futsan guy would take a one-hour train ride to Guangzhou or Kongmen to train with his CLF brothers? Or the other way around? Frank's behavior here showed it would never happen because everyone thinks they are the best and there is no need to learn from each other.

Sure we can get a lot of information easily in an electronic age, but gaining knowledge is another matter...

Cheers guys, thanks for your discussions.
XJ

bawang

10-05-2010, 02:09 PM

i think while extrajoseph is a doushbag, hsk is also fat. so u guys are both right.

The "cum"

lol u said cum ur a perwert

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 02:17 PM

Hi Frank,

I know how you feel about me and how Futsan is the best, there is no need to keep on ribbitting, it is very boring.

I DON'T CARE. If you would not spread so many lies we may actually be able to hold a conversation. until then, you are nothing more than a chan family DISINFORMATIONIST.

When the subject of Jeung Hung Sing and Fut San Hung Sing Kuen arises you don't need to try and steal the focus away by interjecting Chan Heung into the mix. I'm really tired of you always trying to tell me about my own lineage when in fact YOU should be asking me about it.

we'd get along just fine if you wouldn't cross that line.

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 02:21 PM

i think while extrajoseph is a doushbag, hsk is also fat. so u guys are both right.

your mom doesn't seem to mind at all she said she likes me fat . but, like i said bawang, i'd rather be fat cause i can lose weight. YOU, on the other hand suffer from multiple personality disorders. and don't be jealous that my lap cheung is fatter than yours too. :eek::D

it must suck to be as retarded as bawangs character.

Shaolindynasty

10-05-2010, 02:34 PM

So Kum should have movements that covers across the body and Na should show some form of grabbing and locking, but I didn't see any

Look closer. The technique used to represent the element kum does cover across the body. the difference is we don't sweep the hand across. We extend the hand forward. This eliminates the need to "catch" the punch and creates a barrier just in case your timing is off.

As for na, I explained already and yes Na is for grabbing. Of course you didn't see me grab anyone because there is no one else in the video:rolleyes:

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 02:47 PM

As for na, I explained already and yes Na is for grabbing. Of course you didn't see me grab anyone because there is no one else in the video

hahahaha TELL EM!!!!!!!!

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 03:30 PM

Look closer. The technique used to represent the element kum does cover across the body. the difference is we don't sweep the hand across. We extend the hand forward. This eliminates the need to "catch" the punch and creates a barrier just in case your timing is off.

Then it is not a Kum 擒 any more, it becomes a Chuan 穿; you penetrated forward to block instead of catching by covering. You cannot Chuan either if your timing is off, so that is not a good excuse as far as I am concerned.

As for na, I explained already and yes Na is for grabbing. Of course you didn't see me grab anyone because there is no one else in the video

No, I didn't see you Kwa, Sau, Chop, Pow, Kup, Biu, Ding and Jong anyone either in the video but I can see your intentions there clearly. Unfortunately, I didn't see any intention in you when it comes to Na, but that could just be me.

Honestly, no offense is intended, you put up a video for comments and I did, that is all. We can just agree to disagree.

Thanks for the discussions.

XJ

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 03:37 PM

why don't you just make a video and show him joseph? maybe we can all learn from your level of mastery. :D but i know you would NEVER do that. :(

Violent Designs

10-05-2010, 03:43 PM

Chan Family secrets? :p

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 04:07 PM

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 04:12 PM

Hi Frank,

I don't need to make tons of video like you do because I have nothing to show off.

As for my discussions here with others, they can be done with words.

No secrets VD, just talking about technical terms.

i didnt say make tons.....just make one. SHOW us what you are talking about. Hung Sing's mantra is PUT UP OR SHUT UP and i've seen guys like you before who are all talk but when it comes to actually showing us/me something they always have a reason for not being able to when asked.

you not hiding for any specific reason right? just posting one video does not mean you are boasting or bragging.

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 04:18 PM

Hi Frank,

Read me again:

As for my discussions here with others, they can be done with words.

Besides, we only see what we want to see, so a video won't help.

XJ

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 04:20 PM

Hi Frank,

Read me again:

Quote:
As for my discussions here with others, they can be done with words.
Besides, we only see what we want to see, so a video won't help.

XJ

you're words are not that precise to paint a clear picture. only video of you looking into the camera and showing us what you are talking about will suffice. you practice tai chi don't you? LOL....jk not that that makes a difference.

extrajoseph

10-05-2010, 04:24 PM

No, it makes no difference whether I do Taiji or make a video. So why bother? I have better things to do.

hskwarrior

10-05-2010, 04:32 PM

No, it makes no difference whether I do Taiji or make a video. So why bother? I have better things to do.

really? do you really believe your own mess?

Shaolindynasty

10-05-2010, 08:37 PM

Honestly, no offense is intended, you put up a video for comments and I did, that is all. We can just agree to disagree.

I am not offended at all. I was merely pointing out that your questions about the technique presented in the video titled "na" had been answered not just by me but several others in this thread and also by my Sihing when his and my sifu's article on the 10 elements came out in kungfu taichi magazine 8 years ago and you questioned it then.

Then it is not a Kum 擒 any more, it becomes a Chuan 穿; you penetrated forward to block instead of catching by covering. You cannot Chuan either if your timing is off, so that is not a good excuse as far as I am concerned.

You don't shoot foward to block. You extend the hand forward but the rotation of the hips and shoulders move the hand to the side slightly.

Whether you find this to be a good "excuse" or not is not my concern. We have specific practical reasons we do things the way we do, and I need no further justification other than my own proficiency in combat.

Choy lay fut as a set of physical skills and while some theoretical knowledge is required, it seems some individuals focus to much on theoretical and historical research and lose sight of the systems true purpose.

Unfortunately, I didn't see any intention in you when it comes to Na, but that could just be me

See my first point in this post.

extrajoseph

10-06-2010, 01:45 AM

Choy lay fut as a set of physical skills and while some theoretical knowledge is required, it seems some individuals focus to much on theoretical and historical research and lose sight of the systems true purpose.

Since we cannot physically fight in an internet forum, what is left is only theoretical discussions, and that is exactly what we are doing here. We can only exercise the combat part in training; so it appears to you as though I am "focus too much on theoretical and historical research and lose sight of the systems true purpose", but that is not the case, it is the set up that we find ourselves in.

I have no problem that find my comments worthless, now and 8 years ago, but there is no need to say that I don't know the true purpose of CLF, which varies according to the person any way.

hskwarrior

10-06-2010, 08:02 AM

I have no problem that find my comments worthless, now and 8 years ago, but there is no need to say that I don't know the true purpose of CLF, which varies according to the person any way.

uh oh...sounds like a nerve has been struck.

Joseph, NEVER in the entire time i've been on this forum have you taken the approach of a fighter. you've always stood on the "cultivate your mind" and Mo Duk and all that pacifist shtuff that has nothing to do with fighting. show us a video old man. or are you just afraid that by doing so you are revealing your TRUE identity?

extrajoseph

10-06-2010, 10:40 AM

Hi Frank,

I happen to think that
"cultivate your mind" and Mo Duk and all that pacifist shtuff do make a better fighter out of a person, but I guess it is too cultivated for you to appreciate, so I'll leave at that.

XJ

hskwarrior

10-06-2010, 11:19 AM

Hi Frank,

I happen to think that
Quote:
"cultivate your mind" and Mo Duk and all that pacifist shtuff
do make a better fighter out of a person, but I guess it is too cultivated for you to appreciate, so I'll leave at that.

XJ

As a sifu I will always teach my students to be stand up individuals. In fact, some of my students are in chinatown gangs and since they came to me to train they've even handed over their weapons to me. I don't train people to be THUGS. people are THUGS long before they come to me or any teacher. I don't train them to be inforcers or to become DAI LO's, I teach them to protect themselves in a city where it is a must to have skills in defending yourself.

don't judge me over my "HSKWARRIOR" persona. I may prefer the combative side of my HUNG SING KUEN over the spiritual cultivation aspect but i'm not training any assassins, soldiers for hire, thieves, or gangsters. Martial Art's method of SELF CULTIVATION is just too HOKEY for me, a little hippiesh, and a little cultish. i just don't operate that way.

My classmates were no different than i am and today they are military, law enforcement, CEO's, and community leaders. Hung Sing people are FOR the community NOT against it.