Iron Palm in your TCMA style

[mooyingmantis]

With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

Have at it! :)

[David Jamieson]

With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

Have at it! :)


1. yes use of palms to strike and the forces as well. However, IP is more of a method than a technique although there is technique involved for sure.

2. in my experience, it's esoteric and some people just don't ever learn it.

3. I practice iron palm but I don't break things. Just to maintain.

[EarthDragon]

nice thread mooying


1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

palm strikes are all over 8 step. whether or not one uses the conditioned palm is up to the practioner.


2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

whenever I feel they are serious enough to learn it. I feel most students dont want to put the time in and will not deal well with the boring repiticious striking day after day after day, month after month, so as a teacher you gotta use your best judement. I have declined many students that have asked.


3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

again we have palm applications that WOULD work much better with a conditioned palm but it is not necessary. I would say that breaking is a great gauge
to understand your level of conditioning and delevopment of IP but not a requirement.

[Hardwork108]

With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

Have at it! :)

Just to mention, that IP training is not just about hard hands and breaking. One can have relatively soft hands and have penetrating strikes. This skill, I believe can classify under Iron Palm, but I have seen others refer to it as Cotton Palm.

The main purpose of this would be to damage Internal Organs. If I remember my readings correctly, Northern Praying Mantis uses similar methodolgies.

The Mainland Chinese of Wing Chun also has Iron Palm/Fist/Body, as part of its curriculm. However, as EarthDragon put it, it is not for everyone.

One fundamental aspect of IP is that you should train it under supervision from a qualified sifu.

[EarthDragon]

One can have relatively soft hands and have penetrating strikes.
I have NO callouses or marks on my palms from my training, But I have seen some prety messed up palms even disfiguring from improper training.


One fundamental aspect of IP is that you should train it under supervision from a qualified sifu.

OH GOD please dont go there, I got into a heated discussion and attacked on the IP thread when I said one should NOT learn I.P from a DVD, but hey its america and alot of black belts bought the book read it and claim to be a master, so why spend years doing something if you can buy a video and learn it in 90 minutes.

[Hardwork108]

.
I have NO callouses or marks on my palms from my training, But I have seen some prety messed up palms even disfiguring from improper training.

I guess some calluses can be acceptable but I bet a lot of those guys you mentioned, with the disfigured palms, end up with serious problems when they get older.


OH GOD please dont go there, I got into a heated discussion and attacked on the IP thread when I said one should NOT learn I.P from a DVD, but hey its america and alot of black belts bought the book read it and claim to be a master, so why spend years doing something if you can buy a video and learn it in 90 minutes.

LOL!

I saw that thread, I think I even posted in it. I think that it is incredible that some MA people can be so uninformed about a methodology that has so many details to it, including the use of proper relaxedness, stance, correct posture, breathing and general technique, not to mention the potential for one to harm himself, through the wrong actions.

Some people here have made IP sound like some caveman form of training where one just hits somehthing to "harden" his hands.:eek:

IMHO, one does not have to be an Einstein to see the need for a qualified Sifu to guide one, during the various stages, of a methodolgy such as this one, but then this forum never ceases to "surprise" me...LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

Have at it! :)

1) Any hand strike is a "iron palm" strike in forms, as such then any form in a system that has IP as part of their curriculum demonstrates it.

2) IP should be taught as a "finishing tool" when the practitioner has a very solid grasp of his fighting ability.
Too many times you see over reliance on IP over proper fighting.
People forget that IP needs a "launch platform" AND skill to apply it.

3) Breaking is a test medium, it should be done to gauge progression and nothing more.

[TenTigers]

in our system, palm training is not just the conditioning of the hands, but moreso the generation of power. My SPM teacher has very soft hands, but strikes like iron.

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro

Any hand strike is a "iron palm" strike in forms
perhaps you mean any PALM strike. we have several HAND strikes that use the wrists, fingers, knuckles and etc etc.

tentigers

in our system, palm training is not just the conditioning of the hands, but moreso the generation of power.

do you generate power in everything else as well as IP? i.e power generation can be done using all body movements even stances I am sure its not limited tyo just IP but perhapsd I read it wrong.


My SPM teacher has very soft hands, but strikes like iron.

true IP focuses on the internal hardening not so much the external.
I have no callouses and very "girly like soft hands" LOL go on insert joke here________________ I'm an engineer and in sales for construction never did labor so my hands are soft, even after years of IP training.

[TenTigers]

in Hung Kuen, everything is about power generation, so yeah, every move.
Our IP comes from that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

perhaps you mean any PALM strike. we have several HAND strikes that use the wrists, fingers, knuckles and etc etc.

Iron palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.

In Hung Kuen you do the palm, back of the hand, side of the hand, heel of plam and fingers in a "claw formation".
In SPM, you do the palm, back of the hand/wrist, edge, heel and PE fist.
In Shuai Chiao you do the palm, back/wrist, edge and "short" palm.
Etc, etc...

[David Jamieson]

Iron palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.

In Hung Kuen you do the palm, back of the hand, side of the hand, heel of plam and fingers in a "claw formation".
In SPM, you do the palm, back of the hand/wrist, edge, heel and PE fist.
In Shuai Chiao you do the palm, back/wrist, edge and "short" palm.
Etc, etc...

true.

also, palm/back/heel/ridge

also palm/back/ heel

also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ crane beak

also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ tiger claw

most in use sequence I have seen with others that is what I would consider legit ip training as far as the striking goes is #3 and #4 although I would say #4 is pretty much a Hung Gar/Black Tiger/Nan Sil Lum thing with #3 taking prevalnce among those who learned by way of or proxy of KYC methodology which is quite wide spread as IP methods go. Lee Ying Arng was disseminating this method (without the golden bell) in movie format in the early 1960's in america and canada. LYA comes from KYC lineage in his north shaolin and IP/IV training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

true.

also, palm/back/heel/ridge

also palm/back/ heel

also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ crane beak

also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ tiger claw

most in use sequence I have seen with others that is what I would consider legit ip training as far as the striking goes is #3 and #4 although I would say #4 is pretty much a Hung Gar/Black Tiger/Nan Sil Lum thing with #3 taking prevalnce among those who learned by way of or proxy of KYC methodology which is quite wide spread as IP methods go. Lee Ying Arng was disseminating this method (without the golden bell) in movie format in the early 1960's in america and canada. LYA comes from KYC lineage in his north shaolin and IP/IV training.

Yep.
Iron Hand conditioning is suppose to be "user specific", while one may choose to condition the crane's beak or tiger's claw, another may prefer to condition the PE fist or the leopard fist and as such, the iron hand training would be adjusted to suit.

[EarthDragon]

Ten tigers,
Ok I was thinking that way as well everything can generate power


san juro

on palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.

this I lost in translation as it is the same however in 8 step we have, hand techniques with applications listed they are
hawk, chopping, sickle, double pull, grinding mill, climbing, protect, mantis

as well we have palm tech with apps
spear side heel back, facing side chopping, double poke and double open.

So i confused by your post, because hands to me is different than palms

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ten tigers,
Ok I was thinking that way as well everything can generate power


san juro


this I lost in translation as it is the same however in 8 step we have, hand techniques with applications listed they are
hawk, chopping, sickle, double pull, grinding mill, climbing, protect, mantis

as well we have palm tech with apps
spear side heel back, facing side chopping, double poke and double open.

So i confused by your post, because hands to me is different than palms

Well, the palm is the palm of your hand, a PART of your hand.
Other parts include the fingers, back, wrist, and both sides.
So, since we condition MORE than JUST the palm surface, Iron palm, though the popular terms, is more technically correct as iron HAND.

[mooyingmantis]

Great feedback guys!

Here is the way we do it in my school:

Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

I only teach four mantis forms. In Beng Bu and Diao Fa there are palm strikes in which the iron palm method of striking is specifically emphasized.

At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

I teach the iron palm training method within the first month for adults and after the major growth plate development is finished in teenagers (late teens).

Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

I leave that up to the student's discretion. If they want to break materials to gauge their power, I will teach them how.
However, I do not believe it is necessary. I rarely practice it since I work in the medical field and cannot work with accidentally injured hands. :eek:
I believe the purpose of iron palm training is to teach penetrating power that injures internal organs.

[Lokhopkuen]

mooyingmantis;1044432]

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?

Yes they are a part of the root essence of our system.

2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?

It is an integral part of the training but the neophyte is seldom aware of the true depth and breath of what there are involved.

3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?

Breaking tends to be used as a meter of skill during certain segment in the long term but it depends on the teacher. Some of my classmates are big on it but mainly i only emphasis these skill sets to my Military/ Law enforcement Disciples. My interests it come and go.

[ginosifu]

Iron Palm is one of the Kung's (功) or Skills in Chinese "Kung Fu". These can vary from IP to Jumping skill to climbing walls, to poking your fingers thru watermelons etc etc. Excelling in one of these skills might have been the key to your survival 300 years ago. One of the downfalls of this might have been sacrificing time to do the training, disfigurement of body parts, sacrificing other skills to perfect this one. I do not think people of today are willing to sacrifice anything for these skills.

I have been doing Iron Palm for 15 years now. 3 times a day 7 days a week 365 a year. Granted there have been times when I could not hit (traveling / knee surgery / getting married etc etc) but I have kept true to my practice. My family time has suffered, but they understand. The only way to achieve any high level of skill is thru diligent practice. My experience with modern students is that their life style does not allow most average person the time / energy to reach any higher than a basic skill. I tried to force all my students to hit during class time, hoping it would develop into a daily habit. After years of frustration I have come to the conclusion that the average person does not care or does have the time or does not want to put the time into developing this skill.

Hitting bags of beans or gravel or steel shot is nothing more than hardening / thickening your hands to hit hard and to take a hit without injury. True Iron Palm takes years of learning how to deliver and transmit power to your hands. Bringing chi / qi or energy to the hands is also a high level aspect of IP. Without the deeper aspects of IP you just have hard hands.

Slapping / Open Hand strikes / Finger Jabs are important parts of Monkey style fighting. It is my personal opinion that IP should be a part of daily training in Monkey.

gionsifu

[ginosifu]

I would like to add one more part to this thread.

This question has 2 parts:

First for commercial school owners, do the commercial style students have the right attitude / ability to train properly for IP. Should commercial school owners give up on trying to teach IP to people that are not prepared to do what ever it takes to achieve high skill?

For the traditional kung fu teacher, whether out of your garage or in the park, how do you get your students to follow thru with diligent IP practice?

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

For the traditional kung fu teacher, whether out of your garage or in the park, how do you get your students to follow thru with diligent IP practice?

That would depend on the program.
I have yet to see anyone follow ANYTHING close to yours.
Heck, I have yet to learn of anyone that TEACHES a routine like yours.

[Lokhopkuen]

Well, the palm is the palm of your hand, a PART of your hand.
Other parts include the fingers, back, wrist, and both sides.
So, since we condition MORE than JUST the palm surface, Iron palm, though the popular terms, is more technically correct as iron HAND.

Actually the iron palm extends from the neck to the finger tips:D

[EarthDragon]

ginosifu

For the traditional kung fu teacher, whether out of your garage or in the park, how do you get your students to follow thru with diligent IP practice?

LOL this is the million dollar question. Have you heard the lead a horse to water story???

I teach only 2 days a week, my students are instructed by me to practice at least 2 of the days they are not in class, a fair goal I feel.

However when tues comes around and I review what they praticed......................... well lets just say I re-teach them the same thing over again.
This is OK for most people in MA today are into it for thier own reasons and thats kweel, however I would say about 1% of MA's this is their life.

You cannot expect more or you will be disappointed. I have been teaching since 1996 and have not taught IP to anyone........

[PalmStriker]

I believe I read somewhere years ago that IP training was traditionally in preparation for a vendetta type confrontation where the practitioner was bound by honor to take care of business on behalf of his family. Thruth? Otherwise it was not considered to be a common practice among the masses. Even though I prefer palmstrikes before punches, I don't practice IP as I also can't afford injury to hands do to occupation. Admire those who do, though.

[ginosifu]

Palmstriker...
I am not sure about the vendetta story. Iron Palm is one of many types of skills that were practiced thru out China. Not every teacher knew IP, so not everyone learned it. However, certain groups or sects excelled at IP, so it was more popular in some areas than others.

ginosifu

[Blacktiger]

We have iron palm in the Ziranmen system.

Zi Ran Men training can be divided into three components : Physical Training, Combat Techniques and Conditioning. Obviously the iron palm falls under the conditioning catagory of which there are a further 6 methods.

This is in order to strengthen your muscles, bones and tendons, and make the body resiliant to attack. It should be stressed that in Ziranmen this conditioning is not intended to cause any harm to your body. Hard force is never utilised during this type of training. Below are the 7 methods.

Mother and Son Ball
Here two iron balls are used, one 8kg and the other 10kg for conditioning the hands. You should train twice a day, gradually increasing you power, qi and repetitions. Do not use hard force. Here the practitioner would assume horse stance and practice lifting, catching, pushing, pointing, and drilling the balls with their fingers.

Tiger Mouth Stick
Using a piece of wood approximately 7 inches long and 3 to 4 inches wide with rounded ends, the practioner practices by grabbing with the stick both hands and twisting them against each other, in both directions.

Iron Hand Training
Fill a deep wok or pan (or bag filled with beans) with dried green beans, asssume horse stance and spear the hands into the beans up to the wrists. Repeat 36 times, twice a day, replacing the beans as they split. After a year, mix in 50% yellow beans and continue training. After another six months, add 50% sand, finally switching to 100% sand at the end of the second year. From here on, you can gradually mix iron pellets into the sand.

Brass Ring Training
Starting with two rings on each arm, the hands are held at the hips in an 'eagle claw' shape, palms up. The arms are alternately extended straight forward, with the palm facing away from you at the end of the outward movement. Add one ring per arm per month, up to a maximum of 32 rings. The rings themselves are 0.5kgs each and about 1.1 inches thick.

Eagle Claw Stance
Eagle claw standing meditation is practiced in order to train your qi. If you practice diligently, you should be able to reach your goal within 3 years. Everyday after stretching, stand with your arms outstretched at shoulder height, like a birds wings. Your eyes should be half closed and focused on the tip of your nose. Gently lock the teeth together, touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth and count your breaths. Gradually increase the duration of standing until you reach an hour. To finish, exhale and drop your arms to your sides. Slowly open your eyes. You can also do this with the rings.

Basket Walking
The purpose of basket walking is to train your body in 'lightness skill'. This makes your body act and feel as if it is extremely light and agile. Using a bamboo basket weighing 4.5kg, you fill it with 100kg of peebles.Balance on the basket and start to walk around it, grabbing the rim with alternate hands as you step. Every 19 days, remove 1.5-2.5kg of pebbles until only 15kg of pebbles are left. At this stage, remove only one pebble per day until the basket is empty. Once you are at a higher level you can work the rings into this exercise also - this is very tough.

My master has also mentioned that we have some iron body or shirt, but I have not seen any of that at this stage, still got a truck load to chew on....all this will do me for a life time im tipping.

The Ziranmen approach to iron palm is always never to let the hands become disfigured in anyway but to keep them soft, its the iron wrapped in cotton idea.

Another intresting thing my master mentioned in relation to this was that Ziranmen practitioners did not want to give anything away to an opponent in this area.

Meaning in the old days if you had banged up and tough hands from lots of IP training then you were giving away your advantage - as a skilled person could pick this up just by looking at an opponents hands knowing that they had this skill. So the Ziranmen approach was to conceal this so that the element of suprise could be employed.

Anyway thats our vibe on this area of training :D

[ginosifu]

Blacktiger:
Do you teach? If you do... Do you push all your students to do all of the above mentioned gung's or skills? Do you have everyone learn Iron Palm and teach Iron palm strikes applications? What is your opinion about the average student? Do they or will they put forth the effort to keep a steady IP practice?

ginosifu

[PlumDragon]

1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?I was taught the "techniques" and applications of the iron palm systems Ive learned, both through formwork and 2-man "drills. The teachers who taught me these systems, however, never *really* attempted to apply the iron palm under pressure, and this is where I have diverged from my teachers of the past. I beleive, quite firmly, that one needs to train the attack under stress for it to be an installed skill that is effective and utilizable.



2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?Whenever they want; if its someone who Im willing to teach any of my martial art to, then they are more than welcome to learn iron palm at any time. Fact is, iron palm itself is composed of pretty simple drills that condition the body and develop power generation, but it takes a long time, relatively speaking. It is certainly drastically less complicated than some of the techniques that many people train within the first couple years of training.

In terms of dedication to actually follow through with training, thats up to them, I dont try to force anything. I will give them the necessary tools to work iron palm. Its up to them, and them only, to follow through with the training, and I am really not concerned with whether they do it or not, its really just up to them...


3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?I believe that breaking is a fairly important aspect of it all. It is the only way to truly measure where you are at, and is an amazing way to learn to get over mental barriers of all kinds.

There are a number of ways iron palm can be employed, and that includes in a downward direction as a block or strike, just as the bag is struck--there are some advantages in terms of power development in this direction (and some disadvantages) so breaking blocks in horizontal, vertical, and diagonal positions, supported and not, helps gauge where you are at and where you have come...

[Blacktiger]

Blacktiger:
Do you teach? If you do... Do you push all your students to do all of the above mentioned gung's or skills? Do you have everyone learn Iron Palm and teach Iron palm strikes applications? What is your opinion about the average student? Do they or will they put forth the effort to keep a steady IP practice?

ginosifu

Hi GS,

Im an instructor within my school but do not have my own students or classes.

Students are not pushed to do all of these, the core skills that everyone would learn are the ring training and circle walking. With the IP and so forth - this is taught to the advanced students. I have to say some people like it and others are just not into it and are happy to keep learning without incorpoarting the IP skill. In terms of the effort to keep steady practice in IP up. I think really it comes in peaks and valleys, I know myself away from class at home I will work on the bean bags etc and I will go through a patch of being right into it and then I may let it slip for a while and then come back to it again.
So its a funny one for students, I think for the most part this type of training attracts the very serious student but for the majority and in todays day and age where most people are time poor its a skill the average punter will say....I think I can do without that im doing all the other training so thats enough.