judo vs. bjj

[Dragonzbane76]

classic match up an older but still good one.

if your not a fan of grappling then your probably going to find it boring. heads up.

Royce Gracie vs. Hidehiko Yoshida

never been a fan of the gracies... to much arrogance for my liking. Not taking away from what they've achieved just hate the nutriders as much as the next guy.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeyhj_martial-arts-fight-judo-vs-jiu-jits

[David Jamieson]

hey, I know, why don't we all take a sleeping pill and throw some gay porn on?

holy crap that was the most boring form of sport fighting i have ever had to endure scrubbing through. lol :p

If it's not mixed with elbows, knees and bloody grease, it is BORING to watch and I don't care how much fun it might be to do. It is boring boring boring. :)

that is all

[mooyingmantis]

Bjj is simply judo. They emphasize the ground game of judo. It has little to do with jujutsu.
Jujutsu is the name used for several traditional styles which incorporate many methods of fighting (striking, throwing, locking, grappling [in and out of armor], rope tying methods, dagger techniques, etc.).

[Dragonzbane76]

If it's not mixed with elbows, knees and bloody grease, it is BORING to watch and I don't care how much fun it might be to do. It is boring boring boring.

haha you can't read can you... i gave you a warning before hand. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Judo guys like to use "slam" and BJJ guys are not. When a Judo guy applies a single leg or double legs, he will pick his opponent up, rotate his body, and then smash his opponent down to the ground with his own force behind it. A BJJ guy will just uses leg/legs pulling and shoulder push to force his opponent down to the ground. In orther words, a Judo guy will have intention to hurt his opponent with his throw. A BJJ guy may just want to start his ground game ASAP. The throw is just a way to reach to his goal.

[Lokhopkuen]

classic match up an older but still good one.

if your not a fan of grappling then your probably going to find it boring. heads up.

Royce Gracie vs. Hidehiko Yoshida

never been a fan of the gracies... to much arrogance for my liking. Not taking away from what they've achieved just hate the nutriders as much as the next guy.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeyhj_martial-arts-fight-judo-vs-jiu-jits

Thank you for posting this, it was very educational.
Bigger stronger guy with similar skill sets on home turf.

[Lokhopkuen]

Judo guys like to use "slam" and BJJ guys are not. When a Judo guy applies a single leg or double legs, he will pick his opponent up, rotate his body, and then smash his opponent down to the ground with his own force behind it. A BJJ guy will just uses leg/legs pulling and shoulder push to force his opponent down to the ground. In orther words, a Judo guy will have intention to hurt his opponent with his throw. A BJJ guy may just want to start his ground game ASAP. The throw is just a way to reach to his goal.

A very solid assessment.

[Lokhopkuen]

hey, I know, why don't we all take a sleeping pill and throw some gay porn on?
<SNIP>

David;
Buddy we gotta talk (ROTFLMAO):D

[Kansuke]

hey, I know, why don't we all take a sleeping pill and throw some gay porn on?


You mean the same thing you do every night?

[IronFist]

Bjj is simply judo.

I once read that BJJ = Basically Just Judo :D

[IronFist]

I sat through the ad, the video played one second, and then reloaded and the ad started again.

I turned it off.

I refused to watch forced ads. Google ads here and there aren't too annoying, even the ones at the bottom of Youtube can be minimized, but when it FORCES you to watch an ad before the video starts, fvck that. I might as well watch TV if I wanted to be forced to watch ads.

Forced ads are ruining the internet.

[David Jamieson]

the internet is regarded as a massive exposure and advertising platform taht is cheaper than virtually all other media to use.

seriously, you can run a campaign on the internet and go viral and outstrip the big boys and their multi million dollar campaigns.

as more people grow to understand that, I am hoping to see less ads on tv! :)

[gunbeatskroty]

Bjj is simply judo. They emphasize the ground game of judo. It has little to do with jujutsu.
Jujutsu is the name used for several traditional styles which incorporate many methods of fighting (striking, throwing, locking, grappling [in and out of armor], rope tying methods, dagger techniques, etc.).

Judo comes from Jujutsu. Kano turned Judo into a massive commercial product through exciting tournaments and heavy sparring (just like MMA is doing to TMA). Limiting it to a sporting aspect. Traditional Japanese JJ includes all of what you stated, including eye strikes, throat strikes, small joint manipulations (fingers, toes)...but these are unsporty and difficult or even impossible to spar at 100% in any dojo (ie. you can only pretend to eye strike someone). While you can spar and compete at 100% in Judo with rules.

Also, no one wants to pay money to watch people eye poke, bend pinky fingers, etc. Nor would athletes want to devote 5-8 hours a day training such techniques.

Maeda, a famous Judoka and bare fist brawler, brought his teachings to Brazil and taught the Gracies. It's not 100% certain, but I don't think he only taught them Judo. I think Maeda taught them what he knew about Japanese Jiu-Jitsu with Judo, which includes standup striking, throws, standing locks, ground fighting, etc. The Brazilians do have such JJJ techniques/curriculum...but they call it "Self Defense" to not detract from their universal CASH COW, being "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu". If the Brazilians included these standup techniques in BJJ, then it's just JJJ and not as much BJJ.

The Gracies took what Maeda taught them and greatly improved the ground aspect of JJJ and turned it into a spinoff of JJJ. My BJJ sensei is from a long line of Judokas in Brazil with his father being a 10th degree. He was a badass in Judo when he was young (my sensei), until he said one day, a BJJ guy under Rickson Gracie came into his family's Judo dojo and whooped him repeatedly. Which was when he switched to BJJ under the teachings of this guy that whooped him.

Again, it's the sportiness of BJJ is what attracts many competitors & students....so that they can go all out in sparring and competition.

[Knifefighter]

Bjj is simply judo. They emphasize the ground game of judo. It has little to do with jujutsu.
Jujutsu is the name used for several traditional styles which incorporate many methods of fighting (striking, throwing, locking, grappling [in and out of armor], rope tying methods, dagger techniques, etc.).

BJJ is not simply judo, just as SAMBO is not simply judo. Both BJJ and SAMBO started out as judo, and each branched off in different specializations. BJJ specialized in groundwork. After 70 years, it is pretty much a completely different discipline now; Although there are quite a few similar techniques, there are also many that are completely different.

[Knifefighter]

Judo guys like to use "slam" and BJJ guys are not. When a Judo guy applies a single leg or double legs, he will pick his opponent up, rotate his body, and then smash his opponent down to the ground with his own force behind it. A BJJ guy will just uses leg/legs pulling and shoulder push to force his opponent down to the ground. In orther words, a Judo guy will have intention to hurt his opponent with his throw. A BJJ guy may just want to start his ground game ASAP. The throw is just a way to reach to his goal.


BJJ guys also slam if they can. The reason you see more high impact throws in judo is because judo guys are better at throwing, since this is what they specialize in.

[Knifefighter]

Judo comes from Jujutsu. Kano turned Judo into a massive commercial product through exciting tournaments and heavy sparring (just like MMA is doing to TMA). Limiting it to a sporting aspect. Traditional Japanese JJ includes all of what you stated, including eye strikes, throat strikes, small joint manipulations (fingers, toes)...but these are unsporty and difficult or even impossible to spar at 100% in any dojo (ie. you can only pretend to eye strike someone). While you can spar and compete at 100% in Judo with rules.

Kano's basic thesis was that, since Jujutsu's "deadly techniques" could not be practiced at full force, they were ineffective. He used his philosophy of full out training with safer techniques to challenge the jujutsu guys and, basically, smashed them.

Pretty much the same principle used the modern full contact "sport" styles vs. traditional "deadly styles" challenge matches like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xdieYG8Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0&feature=related

[Lokhopkuen]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

[Kansuke]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

Really? There's all kinds of hard work...

[Lokhopkuen]

I've taken up a secret style of ground fighting (http://www.the-clitoris.com/n_html/a_guide_to_cunnilingus.htm) to deadly for the street.:D

[goju]

i thought bjj just largely preserved the older form of judo before it began to focus largely on throws ?

[Frost]

i thought bjj just largely preserved the older form of judo before it began to focus largely on throws ?

at the start yes but because it concentrated so much on the ground and on competition it has created new moves and positions that were never seen in judo, or if they were it has created variations of those moves never seen, things like 50/50 guard, upside down guard, darc choke, go go plata etc, just in the same way judo developed new grips and takedowns old school judo didnt have because of the heavy competition influnence these days (well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

[sanjuro_ronin]

at the start yes but because it concentrated so much on the ground and on competition it has created new moves and positions that were never seen in judo, or if they were it has created variations of those moves never seen, things like 50/50 guard, upside down guard, darc choke, go go plata etc, just in the same way judo developed new grips and takedowns old school judo didnt have because of the heavy competition influnence these days (well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

Ever read the Kawashiki method of Judo?
It's an old book, but it has submissions that many think were "invented" in BJJ.
That said, in terms of positional dominace and VARIETY of submisions OFF of basic subs, BJJ is/was far ahead of Kodokan Judo.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Always enjoyed the match between Helio and Kimura. Even though Kimura won and had almost mythical status, the fact of the huge size difference as well as the fact that Helio refused to tap after having his arm broken always made me respect his pure toughness. I remember reading once where Kimura said if the fight lasted more than three minutes, he would consider it a loss. Kind of arrogant I guess, but so is bringing a coffin to ring for Kimura like the Gracies did.:cool:

[MightyB]

(well it did until these grips and leg attackes were banned because the east europeans were cleaning up using them)

LOL - ain't that the truth!!! Our state association is p!ssed about that rule change. A lot of us are leaving for Sambo and BJJ because we don't like "new" Judo.

Personally, I find BJJ to be closer to what I think Judo was supposed to be.

The Kodokan has a history of trying to keep an advantage for their Japanese Judoka through nonsensical rule changes. Some people were writing that BJJ = Judo. In a way they were correct.

Originally there was more ground fighting allowed. This led to what some people call Kosen Judo. That's simply referring to a branch in Japan that specialized in Newaza because they were physically smaller than the Tokyo University guys who were throwers from the Kodokan. They looked at the rules and said, "heck, if we can't beat them in throwing, we'll beat them in Newaza". Smart right? And they did start winning.

Unfortunately - the Kodokan didn't like that so they changed the game instead of finding a legit way to win. Thus - a history of changing rules to suit their guys started.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pre-war Judo or "combat judo" as they used to call it, looked more like MMA then Judo.
Maeda was a prime exampel of this Judo so it makes sense that BJJ would look the way it does.
The Kosen Judo of today is a far cry from the Kosen (old school) judo of Kimura's time.
Judo, the way it was envisioned and was taught pre-olympic, was a balanced and complete MA -
Strikes were used from striking range, with elbows and knees being used quite a bit along with low kicks ( Tenjin shinyo ryi), when the clinch happened, that is when throws were used to take the person down, HARD ( Kito ryu), and them they were subbed via choke or break or immoblized for restraining purposes ( Tenjin shinyo ryu and Takenoguchi ryu).

[MightyB]

Here's a clip I put on youtube a long time ago of old school Judo. In it you see Mifune using techniques that you now see in BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

[Knifefighter]

Kung fu means skill acquired through hard work.

I didn't see one kung fu exponent.

Sure you did. It was from the MMA guys. They are the guys who have skill through hard work.

[MightyB]

Some old school here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZkv1trEI&feature=related

After re-watching these - I think BJJ is great for Judo.

I tell my Judo instructor that I don't see any difference between the arts (I do, I'm talking in a philosophical sense). What I mean is that they aren't in competition with each other and both should be practiced together.

I tell my BJJ instructor "watch out, 'cuz it won't be long before I figure out a way to beat you" and then he laughingly wipes the mat with my sorry arse.

[Dragonzbane76]

Here's a clip I put on youtube a long time ago of old school Judo. In it you see Mifune using techniques that you now see in BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

some nice stuff mightyb...
:)

[Lokhopkuen]

Sure you did. It was from the MMA guys. They are the guys who have skill through hard work.

The MMA guys were better conditioned and more disciplined in their approach and that is indeed gung fu.
It's sad that TCMA has such a poor reputation in the fighting world due to the fact that many of the people who step up as "representative exponents" are nine times out of ten some poorly trained social deficient with no real skill sets to speak of (LARPERS) while men of true skill quietly observe the various goings on with detached amusement. I think what many practitioners from outside TCMA mistake a conservative cultural imperative for that stupid phrase "too deadly for the street"....
I've personally never had a problem with MMA but I've had a problem with MMA people talking s-hit about TCMA of which I am a dedicated exponent who is always willing to show and prove and yet i like you am well aware of the teachers legendary in their own mind....
Years back I spent some time meeting "Sifus" and "correcting bad gung fu" through "friendly challenge matches". At one point we (my rowdy "lets see if this s-hit really works classmates") were actively out spoke calling bull s-hit on people we felt were messing things up for the traditional exponents at large and even going as far to engaged in parking lot fights betting for money on the out come while competing at some of the bigger TCMA events, but that produced bitterness and gave some of us a reputation as a "trouble makers lacking subtlety" or representative examples of reasons not to train gwai lo/ hock gwai . If you are not part of a TCMA group you may not be aware of the culturally based pressures involved to remain in good standing amongst your peers. My classmates who are mostly conservative respectable Asian family men, gossiped and complained to my teacher that we might be tarnishing the reputation of our organization by "behaving as gangsters" yada yada..
Behind these incidents my teacher gave me a few stiff talking to's with the admonition to never interfere with a man's business as well as to "stop approaching everything the wrong way". That was a wake up call for me because somewhere in my head I never connected store front martial arts schools with the concept of being merchants. My teacher is a wise man of rare skill who has taught me many powerful lessons beyond martial art.

Now days the term Sifu is used by so many people with no concept of real martial essence. Titles like Master, Grand Master are assumed by cats that are simply slick business men with no warrior essence.

My point is those people in the videos you linked needed their behinds beaten just for being wanna-be posers.

Cheers to MMA practitioners for keeping martial art Martial.

[Kansuke]

My point is those people in the videos you linked needed their behinds beaten just for being wanna-be posers.




Akebono had more skill (gained through hard work) in his specific field than you are ever going to have in anything as long as you live. His skill set just was not applicable to the context he put himself in.

[Knifefighter]

The MMA guys were better conditioned and more disciplined in their approach and that is indeed gung fu.
Conditioning is part of being prepared. That being said, if someone practices mostly techniques that are too "deadly" to be practiced full contact, conditioning isn't going to help him.

[Lokhopkuen]

Akebono had more skill (gained through hard work) in his specific field than you are ever going to have in anything as long as you live. His skill set just was not applicable to the context he put himself in.

I think you misunderstood I never refereed to Akebono I was talking about the ones knife fighter posted...
As far as my skill level? I can close my gates at will, i kick i punch i practice wrestle and I'm familiar with effective methods of seizing. I understand my effective ranges as well as my limitations.

I've lost some and won some.

I just love martial art and I have nothing to prove.

How's your day?

[Lokhopkuen]

Conditioning is part of being prepared. That being said, if someone practices mostly techniques that are too "deadly" to be practiced full contact, conditioning isn't going to help him.

<edit> I wanted to add a note:
You misread as I was not implying that I was ever taught any thing secret style of ground fighting (http://www.the-clitoris.com/n_html/a_guide_to_cunnilingus.htm) :D "too deadly for the street" LOL, since my teacher offers a series of interconnected rare skill sets which have served me quite well. instead i was awkwardly attempting to provide some personal insight into why i feel some of the higher skilled exponents of traditional gung fu do not pursue competition in these popular fighting events. I based this on individuals who's skills I respect who I thought might fair well yet have no interest. Truth be told the only person I'm qualified to comment on is myself:)

I agree with your above statement yet The people that were depicted in your linked videos weren't even fighters much less representative of TCMA....
Mobility, flexibility, strength and skilled technique combined with the will to do damage makes a great fighter.

A clear mind empty of attachments and compassionate heart make a good man.

Thank you for your insight.

[gunbeatskroty]

Kano's basic thesis was that, since Jujutsu's "deadly techniques" could not be practiced at full force, they were ineffective. He used his philosophy of full out training with safer techniques to challenge the jujutsu guys and, basically, smashed them.


Are there precise records of this. I don't see how they can have tournaments where people can eye gouge and such (which is part of the arsenal of JJJ). I'm not saying that eye gouging is supreme....the Gracies did allow eye gouging, biting, everything... in their fights when they made their challenge to any system in the world. One video on YouTube showed a guy trying to eye gouge Royler Gracie I think....in which he got his arm snap in a crack then scream, for it.....guess you don't get to tap after going there.

But Judo during Kano's time is even more so limited in ground fighting while Jujutsu had always had ground work. So were these fights, sporty fights with rules? Like lots of Judo rules. I've had training in Danzan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. There's lots of throws, transitioning into a standing armbar (for example). I didn't like it too much b/c there was just too many throws. I think what you're referring to is that the TJJ of that time would get beaten badly in Judo tournaments. And Judo took over due to its sportiness and vigorous training, like a sport that athletes can compete in....unlike using techniques such as eye gouging, pinky breaking, etc. of TJJ.

From my experience, pure Judo guys are usually like flipped over turtles when they're on the ground...they're awesome at spectacular throws when standing up though.....now I'm speaking from 1997 or so when my sensei, a Judoka (b/c nowadays, everybody & their mother crosstrains...especially grappling), was still sharing a small mat space for his BJJ classes with another school. I remember seeing a black belt in Judo who was also my sensei's student from Brazil ....we were all impressed to see that he had a Black belt, b/c we were all white with a few blues (in BJJ)....not even 1 purple belt yet.....later we found out he was a BB in Judo and sensei was testing him out.....and ranked him at blue in BJJ. And he loss to all of the BJJ blues (all the time) and even to some whites during sparring.

My sensei, who's from a long line of Judoka with his father being a 10th degree in Brazil....talks about how when he was young & already an accomplished Judoka.... he got whooped by a Rickson Gracie BB in Brazil that came into their dojo ...b/c he couldn't handle it on the ground....and that was when he became this guy's (who whooped him) student in BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

Are there precise records of this. I don't see how they can have tournaments where people can eye gouge and such (which is part of the arsenal of JJJ). I'm not saying that eye gouging is supreme....the Gracies did allow eye gouging, biting, everything... in their fights when they made their challenge to any system in the world. One video on YouTube showed a guy trying to eye gouge Royler Gracie I think....in which he got his arm snap in a crack then scream, for it.....guess you don't get to tap after going there.

But Judo during Kano's time is even more so limited in ground fighting while Jujutsu had always had ground work. So were these fights, sporty fights with rules? Like lots of Judo rules. I've had training in Danzan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. There's lots of throws, transitioning into a standing armbar (for example). I didn't like it too much b/c there was just too many throws. I think what you're referring to is that the TJJ of that time would get beaten badly in Judo tournaments. And Judo took over due to its sportiness and vigorous training, like a sport that athletes can compete in....unlike using techniques such as eye gouging, pinky breaking, etc. of TJJ.

Ummm... this was 150 years ago in Japan. Yes, it was everything goes. That was the idea behind the whole challenge.

[Frost]

Ummm... this was 150 years ago in Japan. Yes, it was everything goes. That was the idea behind the whole challenge.

according to the reports there were a few deaths in the event, judo won alll nut one match which was a draw