kung fu or bjj

[18elders]

Everyone always says brazilian jiu jitsu, here are old chinese kung fu photos from early 1900's

[Dragonzbane76]

NOW.... where have I seen these before...lol


didn't we have this discussion about the same pics before? :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is some debate as to where Shaui CHiao got those moves, with some argueing that they came from Judo, to which the early 1900's chinese MA were exposed to by the japanese.
This Judo is where BJJ came from by the way, so the question isn't "kung fo or BJJ" but more correctly:
Kung fu submissions and BJJ, same origins?

[MightyB]

Egyptian BJJ out lineages them all!!! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling, older than the hills on grannies chest and twice as dusty !!

Of course some of those pictures look more like the Kama sutra than MA, LOL !

[Dragonzbane76]

Grappling, older than the hills on grannies chest and twice as dusty !!

aye... wrestling/grappling has been around as long as people have. I would consider it the oldest style.

[David Jamieson]

This:

http://www.athens-greece.us/athens-museums/national-archaeological-museum/boxing-children.jpg

is from approx 1550 BCE

boxing.... it's old too. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Many people seem to be under the impression that Greek Pankration influenced Kalarippayattu, though there are references to other arts prior to it, dating back to 2nd c. BCE.

Pankration, frankly, is not known today. The revival form of the art is known to be considerably different from the original art practiced throughout the Helenic States... Further, it is predated itself by boxing (pygmachia) and wrestling (pale), which, again, have roots as far back as Sumeria (2600 BCE).

roots are interwoven in human history.

http://www.mardb.com/malla-yuddha/

[18elders]

I must have missed the previous discussion on it.

[Dragonzbane76]

no biggie, just stating I remember commenting on the photos and as Ronin stated there was discrepancies towards them and the originality of them is all i remember.

[Kansuke]

aye... wrestling/grappling has been around as long as people have. I would consider it the oldest style.

Which is why wrestling is the greatest of all martial arts.

[EarthDragon]

:rolleyes:

[Violent Designs]

Which is why wrestling is the greatest of all martial arts.

no boxing is.

i win.

[KwaiChangCaine]

I don't recall the previous discussion ...what's the source of the photos and what kf style are they associated with?

[KwaiChangCaine]

My first kf instructor had the glyphs on the wall of the school.....presented as proof of the kemetic origins of fighting arts ......

[Knifefighter]

Everyone always says brazilian jiu jitsu, here are old chinese kung fu photos from early 1900's

The difference between those and BJJ is that BJJ actually uses those techs against resisting opponents. Those pics clearly show people who were not using them and testing them because they do not work the way they are shown in that diagram.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Bjj manuals show techniques using compliant partners. Doesn't mean they don't work the techniques live.

[Knifefighter]

Bjj manuals show techniques using compliant partners. Doesn't mean they don't work the techniques live.

No, but when they show the techs, they actually show them the way they have to be applied to actually work. The pics in the original docs weren't showing the techs in a way they would actually work. When you actually use the techs, you demonstrate them the way you have learned that they work against a resisting opponent. You still apply the technique in a valid manner, even when the opponent is complying. The original demos wouldn't work the way they are being shown.

[Three Harmonies]

The Chinese NEVER developed a comprehensive curriculum on the ground. period. Just because they shared a few common holds, submissions and what not means nothing.

[Dragonzbane76]

The Chinese NEVER developed a comprehensive curriculum on the ground. period. Just because they shared a few common holds, submissions and what not means nothing.
__________________

been preaching that around here for awhile... trying telling it to some of the other loonies around here.

[wenshu]

Of course some of those pictures look more like the Kama sutra than MA, LOL !

and BJJ doesn't?

[EarthDragon]

dragon

been preaching that around here for awhile... trying telling it to some of the other loonies around here.

I dont think anyone has argued differently, but when you put down TCMA on a TCMA board and boost up MMA on a non MMA board as the be all and end all of fighting is where your going to get the rebuttles

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Grappling, older than the hills on grannies chest and twice as dusty !!

Of course some of those pictures look more like the Kama sutra than MA, LOL !

I was thinking the same thing. Is it possible they got the two mixed up.:D

[mooyingmantis]

The Chinese NEVER developed a comprehensive curriculum on the ground. period. Just because they shared a few common holds, submissions and what not means nothing.

No disagreement here. However you leave out one vital fact:

Most styles of jujutsu didn't develop much of a ground game either. It wasn't practical. The idea in jujutsu was to throw the opponent in such a way that they were injured or killed when they hit the ground. That gave tori the opportunity to pull his dagger and end uke's life. Rolling around on the ground fighting was not commonly adopted until the Empire was at peace and jujutsu, like other Japanese arts, became more sport than combat oriented. Eve today, few traditional styles of jujutsu incorporate a ground game.
So it is not unusual that the Chinese arts had the same mentality.

Jujutsu should not be interpreted through BJJ. BJJ is based on Judo, not traditional jujutsu. BJJ has little in common with traditional jujutsu.

CMA should not be judged based on modern sporting ideas. It wasn't designed for sport, though some arts have chosen to evolve that way.

[dirtyrat]

Also add to the fact that blades were widely used back when. If you live in those times, most likely you will be spending most of your training time to develop skills that address weapons use.

[mooyingmantis]

Also add to the fact that blades were widely used back when. If you live in those times, most likely you will be spending most of your training time to develop skills that address weapons use.

Absolutely!

[EarthDragon]

I have heard it said in Chinese cirlces that to fight on the ground is comparable to dogs fighting in the dirt.

[Three Harmonies]

Richard,
Well... you are slightly correct, and I am in no mood to argue. Brazilian Jiu (notice the spelling) Jitsu is based off of the old school Judo (not currently what you see) which was in fact old school Ju Jitsu.

Agreed, going to the ground deliberately with weapons certainly is not a bright idea. But then again, one should be prepared if such a situation occurs, no!?

The Chinese have never developed a comprehensive ground system because of cultural stigma, bias, and ignorance. I too have heard it preached that rolling on the ground is akin to a dog, something looked down upon in Chinese culture.

Funny thing is...now that money can be made off of BJJ, the Chinese are jumping all over it:rolleyes:

JAB

[dirtyrat]

Certainly no one can argue against the value of learning groundfighting skills (well they can but in the end they're stupid), but who really knows why the Chinese never develop ground fighting. The subject of violence is a huge one and there are so many different combat skills out there. Perhaps they just decided to focus on what they thought was necessary at the time and excel at that. My Chinese friends seem to be a practical lot in general. Some don't see why they should learn martial arts (other than for recreational purposes) when you can buy a gun!

[Jimbo]

Also add to the fact that blades were widely used back when. If you live in those times, most likely you will be spending most of your training time to develop skills that address weapons use.

True. It's my understanding that the various jujutsu skills were originally intended as backup methods for when the samurai lost his weapon or ended up in close quarters with the enemy, and needed a quick method to dispatch him, or get to another weapon. It was not the main focus of a samurai's training. Also, since samurai wore body armor, most striking/kicking would not have been so effective, but arm bars/breaks, chokes, etc., would have been just as effective if the fight went to the ground against a single enemy.

[Knifefighter]

CMA should not be judged based on modern sporting ideas. It wasn't designed for sport, though some arts have chosen to evolve that way.

The sport vs. "combat" argument has been going on for 150 years. Kano developed judo to disprove the fallacy of jujutsu and people have been doing the same since then.

[Knifefighter]

Richard,
Well... you are slightly correct, and I am in no mood to argue. Brazilian Jiu (notice the spelling) Jitsu is based off of the old school Judo (not currently what you see) which was in fact old school Ju Jitsu.

No it wasn't. Judo was new school jujutsu developed specifically to prove the ineffectiveness of the non-sport model of jujutsu.

[Knifefighter]

Agreed, going to the ground deliberately with weapons certainly is not a bright idea. But then again, one should be prepared if such a situation occurs, no!?

If you lose your weapon and your opponent has one, your best bet is grappling and groundfighting.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you lose your weapon and your opponent has one, your best bet is grappling and groundfighting

hell some of the loonies on here probably believe the "chain" punch will get you outta a full mount or something.

[mooyingmantis]

Richard,
Well... you are slightly correct, and I am in no mood to argue. Brazilian Jiu (notice the spelling) Jitsu is based off of the old school Judo (not currently what you see) which was in fact old school Ju Jitsu.

Agreed, going to the ground deliberately with weapons certainly is not a bright idea. But then again, one should be prepared if such a situation occurs, no!?

The Chinese have never developed a comprehensive ground system because of cultural stigma, bias, and ignorance. I too have heard it preached that rolling on the ground is akin to a dog, something looked down upon in Chinese culture.

Funny thing is...now that money can be made off of BJJ, the Chinese are jumping all over it:rolleyes:

JAB

Jake,
The spelling Jiu-jutsu does not separate it from Jujutsu. Jiujutsu is simply a French twist on the transliteration.
It is true that Kano Sensei practiced two jujutsu koryu ("ancient schools"). However, Kano changed much of what he learned to develop Judo. Judo was designed to be a sport oriented art that could be incorporated into the public school system. Which it later was.

I am not against learning ground fighting. Remember, I taught jujutsu for decades. Yet, I still believe it is a last choice scenario for self-defense. There is no point in purposely going to the ground if one can get the same job done standing.

I agree that if one is forced to the ground, they better have a ground strategy or at the least know how to disengage and quickly leave the ground. To have no ground training in a time when MMA is so wide spread is foolish. Since one may have to defend them-self against someone trained in this fashion.

TCMA has always been about change and perhaps this will lead to a new step in its maturity.

[Knifefighter]

Jake,
The spelling Jiu-jutsu does not separate it from Jujutsu. Jiujutsu is simply a French twist on the transliteration.
It is true that Kano Sensei practiced two jujutsu koryu ("ancient schools"). However, Kano changed much of what he learned to develop Judo. Judo was designed to be a sport oriented art that could be incorporated into the public school system. Which it later was.

Judo was developed specifically to show that the sport training model was superior to the "combat" training model. A series of challenge matches ensued in which the judo guys pretty much destroyed the jujutsu guys (pretty much the same way the BJJ, MMA and other sport guys have destroyed the "street" guys over the last 20 years).

Only later was judo incorporated into the school curriculum.

[Knifefighter]

I am not against learning ground fighting. Remember, I taught jujutsu for decades. Yet, I still believe it is a last choice scenario for self-defense. There is no point in purposely going to the ground if one can get the same job done standing..

Of course you want to go to the ground if you have expertise in that area.

[KwaiChangCaine]

So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs "live" that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?

[Michael Dasargo]

I believe tim cartmell put it best: practical vs. practice-able.

sport is an opportunity to test a body of techniques vs. a fully combative opponent, thus proving the validity and reliability of said techniques.

many practical techniques are pretty straightforward, but also generally only tested on duty or illegally....which is a small percentage of the population.

So if you are neither military/LE nor getting into street fights, chances are you aren't getting as many fully committed reps, thus reducing the reliability of ones performance under combative conditions.

M.

PS
What's to stop a Judoka from kickin' someone in the nuts in a street fight?
IMO, cognizance.

[mooyingmantis]

So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs "live" that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?

Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the "safe" way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football??? :eek: That would be the same logic that you are using here.

Let me give an example of a common judo technique and its jujutsu counterpart:

In judo, tomoenage (circle throw) starts with tori and nage facing each other with gripped lapels:
1. Tori breaks uke's balance,
2. Tori places his foot on uke's lower abdomen,
3. Tori drops to his back and tosses uke ass-over-teakettle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOIbQ2cXRHU) over his head and to tori's rear.

In jujutsu yoroi-kumi-ushi (grappling in armor):
1. Tori presses down on uke's neck,
2. Tori advances and places uke's head under tori's armpit,
3. Tori wraps his arm around uke's neck and throat as a choke and neck lock,
4. Tori falls between uke's legs landing on his back,
5. Tori kicks uke in the groin (while maintaining the neck lock) to throw uke over tori's head and to tori's rear,
6. If uke's neck is not damaged in the fall (which is the point of the throw), tori rolls onto his knees and applies the neck lock pressure to suffocate uke.

How would you rather be thrown? The sport method, or the traditional method?

As for how the koryu or traditional jujutsu arts trained, it was on a ryu by ryu basis. Some used only forms, some fought within the school, others stormed other dojos.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Mooing mantis....the question marks they indicate questions. I'm just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo's response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.

Was actually responding to knifefighter....should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I'm open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?

[mooyingmantis]

Mooing mantis....the question marks they indicate questions. I'm just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo's response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.

Was actually responding to knifefighter....should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I'm open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?

LOL, so that's what question marks are for!!! :eek:
I didn't take your remarks in an offensive way. It is hard to judge one's tone when typing. So, I will try to be more clear in the future.

I have Knifefighter on ignore, so I didn't see his comments.

Glad to hear you are open. It is the best way to grow.

I still occasionally teach jujutsu to family and close friends. Though I am very limited by a back injury. In fact, I practice Mantis because it is less strenuous than other styles that I practiced for decades (jujutsu and monkey).

[KwaiChangCaine]

Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that's why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don't think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.

[mooyingmantis]

Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that's why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don't think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.

Judoka know the history. Judo can be brutal, no doubt about that and it can be useful in self-defense. Its just very different in intent than jujutsu. Judo was designed for sport, jujutsu for controlling or killing.

Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate's or student's safety. Read Angry White Pyjamas. It will be very illuminating read on the brutality of Japanese practice.

[Kansuke]

Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate's or student's safety.


That is a false generalization.

[Kansuke]

Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the "safe" way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football???.




You've got it backwards.

[Knifefighter]

So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs "live" that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?

Yes, the ability to practice full force over and over again is what makes the "sport" model superior. This has been proven over and over again for the past 150 years. When you put the sport model against the "deadly" model, the sport model wins every time. You can't develop skill with something that is too "deadly" to practice for real. The old school JJ training was based on the theory that techniques which were to dangerous to practice for real were to make up the majority of the system.

The examples below are pretty much what happens every time the two models are tested against each other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xdieYG8Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0&feature=related

[Knifefighter]

Judoka know the history. Judo can be brutal, no doubt about that and it can be useful in self-defense. Its just very different in intent than jujutsu. Judo was designed for sport, jujutsu for controlling or killing.

Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate's or student's safety. Read Angry White Pyjamas. It will be very illuminating read on the brutality of Japanese practice.


Anyone using some simple logic would quickly figure out that if the techniques were used for killing and they had little concern for anyone's safety, there would be no one to train with because they would all kill each other off.

[mantid1]

Exactly......that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15....nuclear sub against nuclear sub.....


The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that.....you should be ready and skilled in this area.

The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor! Doesnt matter that you dont fight any better than the drunk guys in the bar that had wrestled in high school. I always say...put two monkeys in a cage and give them one banana a day. Sooner or later thier fighting skills will develop.

To be honest I find it some sort of sick perversion to enjoy watching another guy on top of someone beating them in the face. I have to deal with so much hate in the world I really dont want to sit down and watch that at night.

Not picking on MMA. It will produce the best fighters......all styles should be taught as "MMA".....and should have been for years. If yours doesnt then you have a problem. Most of the vids above were MMA against whatever....the reason for my post.

One last thing. It is sad to see these guys from traditinal styles think that they can fight.....can they be that foolish?

[Frost]

Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the "safe" way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football??? :eek: That would be the same logic that you are using here.

Let me give an example of a common judo technique and its jujutsu counterpart:

In judo, tomoenage (circle throw) starts with tori and nage facing each other with gripped lapels:
1. Tori breaks uke's balance,
2. Tori places his foot on uke's lower abdomen,
3. Tori drops to his back and tosses uke ass-over-teakettle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOIbQ2cXRHU) over his head and to tori's rear.

In jujutsu yoroi-kumi-ushi (grappling in armor):
1. Tori presses down on uke's neck,
2. Tori advances and places uke's head under tori's armpit,
3. Tori wraps his arm around uke's neck and throat as a choke and neck lock,
4. Tori falls between uke's legs landing on his back,
5. Tori kicks uke in the groin (while maintaining the neck lock) to throw uke over tori's head and to tori's rear,
6. If uke's neck is not damaged in the fall (which is the point of the throw), tori rolls onto his knees and applies the neck lock pressure to suffocate uke.

How would you rather be thrown? The sport method, or the traditional method?

As for how the koryu or traditional jujutsu arts trained, it was on a ryu by ryu basis. Some used only forms, some fought within the school, others stormed other dojos.

well i dont know how i'd want to be thrown, but i can guess out of the two who would be able to throw me


well the only time judo faced off against traditional JJ incompetition that I know of was the police trials, and the so called safe kids art put several traditional guys in hospital or the morgue, go figure

[Frost]

Exactly......that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15....nuclear sub against nuclear sub.....


The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that.....you should be ready and skilled in this area.

The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor! Doesnt matter that you dont fight any better than the drunk guys in the bar that had wrestled in high school. I always say...put two monkeys in a cage and give them one banana a day. Sooner or later thier fighting skills will develop.

To be honest I find it some sort of sick perversion to enjoy watching another guy on top of someone beating them in the face. I have to deal with so much hate in the world I really dont want to sit down and watch that at night.

Not picking on MMA. It will produce the best fighters......all styles should be taught as "MMA".....and should have been for years. If yours doesnt then you have a problem. Most of the vids above were MMA against whatever....the reason for my post.

One last thing. It is sad to see these guys from traditinal styles think that they can fight.....can they be that foolish?

around here its the MMA classes that are packed and the TCMA ones dying out, and like all styles yo have people cashing in, the good thing with MMA is that its easy to find the good schools, just go and see who is winning in all the comps in your area and go train there :)

[Knifefighter]

Exactly......that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15....nuclear sub against nuclear sub.....?

Actually, the military DOES use live rounds. Training with techniques that are "too deadly" to practice full force would be the same as firing your weapon without ever using real ammo... you would never become a very good shot.

The basic principle of all human performance training is to get as close as you can to the actual event that you are training for. Neglect this and you will develop very little skill.

[Knifefighter]

The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that.....you should be ready and skilled in this area.

One way to know a person is clueless about "street survival" is if they say you NEVER want to go to the ground. Of course there are times you want to go there, especially if you know what to do there. Most cops who work the street know this.

[EarthDragon]

manti

The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor!

the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.

There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc

Frost,

the good thing with MMA is that its easy to find the good schools, just go and see who is winning in all the comps in your area and go train there

because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school..........
thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin

[Knifefighter]

manti


the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.

There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc

Kind of like TMA schools have been doing for years.

[taai gihk yahn]

I believe tim cartmell put it best: practical vs. practice-able.

sport is an opportunity to test a body of techniques vs. a fully combative opponent, thus proving the validity and reliability of said techniques.

many practical techniques are pretty straightforward, but also generally only tested on duty or illegally....which is a small percentage of the population.

So if you are neither military/LE nor getting into street fights, chances are you aren't getting as many fully committed reps, thus reducing the reliability of ones performance under combative conditions.

M.

PS
What's to stop a Judoka from kickin' someone in the nuts in a street fight?
IMO, cognizance.
QFT +10

the vast body of Motor Learning research demonstrates pretty clearly that the context of practice is as, or in some cases, more important than the content; meaning that if I am primarily practicing "non-lethal" strikes like jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts against a fully non-compliant opponent, if I am out on "the street" and decide I want to now use my uber-deadly throat grabs, eye pokes, crane beaks, mantis claws, etc., I will have a much better chance of successfully using those than the guy who trains those techniques all the time in the air or against fully / semi-compliant opponent: I mean, to change a jab to a finger strike is not that big a deal - if I am doing finger conditioning and sparring full out using jabs, and mixing in some semi-controlled work w the finger strikes, that's going to be as close as I get to actually jabbing an eye "for real"; of course, I;m not saying someone SHOULD do this, I;m just illustrating how the core work still should involve full-out sparring because that teaches the timing, distance, power delivery etc. in a way closest to a non-sporting altercation (and again, not forgetting the unique randomness associated w/street fighting, including environmental parameters, unpredictable behavior of people, etc., but again, ring training at least gets you closer to that than anything else)



because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school..........

sure it does - if it's an MMA, san da, BJJ or judo school - because they train to actively use their system in a competative venue, then it tells you that they are successful at what they train for; and since the students are used to / successful at using their skills in a live environment, you can have SOME idea that their ability to use it on "the street" is going to, on average, be based on this;


thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin
this is also true - because most kung fu competitions involve forms or some weird version of point style fighting; so yes, being good at this stuff has no bearing on one's abity to fight "for real"

[taai gihk yahn]

the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.

get real - you just described a large body of TMA schools, and even the ones that are "legit" with established backgrounds, just because they certify someone, who certifies THEM? MA groups that are legitimately certified would be ones like wushu, judo or (sad to say) WTF TKD, because they have oversite from various national governing bodies that have independent criteria for certification, are in essence "peer reviewed, etc."; (i'm not saying these groups are perfect or without corruption, but my point is that the notion of certification is at least more credible)
and please, all the TMA guys cry about how NYS wants to institute professional credentialing requirements for MA schools (which would probably involve really dumb stuff like having instructors mandatorily certified in silly things like CPR / basic firs aid and to take ridiculous classes like Child Abuse ID / Reporting :rolleyes:)! and aren't you a TCM pratitioner? THERE's your certification / credentialing - oversite, accountability, professional code of conduct, practice act, etc. - these are the hallmarks of sound credentialing
so to talk about "credentials", one has to think a bit more broadly than some TCMA organization in Hong Kong operating under it's own auspices giving 'certification" to people as if that means anything

[Frost]

manti


the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.

There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc

Frost,


because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school..........
thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin

nope of course not you should look for the schools that dont compete because they are above that and too skilled :rolleyes:

MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school, either that or it got lucky and all the best natuaral fighters all decided to go the the same school at the same time and decided to stay there.....which of the above do you think is more likely?

And it depends how those trophies in the window were won, if it was by competiing in fighting then its probably a good school to go to if one actually wants to learn fighting, if they won them in forms comps its probably a good school to attend if one wants to do forms well, go figure competition being a good indicator of a schools worth, who would have thought that?

[EarthDragon]

wow, OK I will try to respond to each of your posts and keep it short

TAAI

sure it does - if it's an MMA, san da, BJJ or judo school - because they train to actively use their system in a competative venue, then it tells you that they are successful at what they train for; and since the students are used to / successful at using their skills in a live environment, you can have SOME idea that their ability to use it on "the street" is going to, on average, be based on this;

OK I will partialy agree with you here, however in my expereicene the TKD schools that turn out great tourney fighters are not tough perse and usually cant fight for ****e on the street. I would have to say if you follow rules for too long its hard to fight outside those rules based on engraining. this is the same with sport fighters If you do something to much and to long its hard to do it another way would you agree to this ?



get real - you just described a large body of TMA schools, and even the ones that are "legit" with established backgrounds, just because they certify someone, who certifies THEM?
I am certified through ACMAF, Bejing medical university and my teacher who is 4th generation 8 step. as well as the mantis cave. But i see your point however one finds a teacher based on his ability and skill but having a recognisable name is also sought after.
If a gym has a NTFT trainer as and the other gym has a guy who is in great shape but not NFFT the novice would train with the gym where the guy is at least holding some sort of certification of what he is professionallly trained in, this is the same with any degree education or certification. sonethign is better than nothing.


so to talk about "credentials", one has to think a bit more broadly than some TCMA organization in Hong Kong operating under it's own auspices giving 'certification" to people as if that means anything

I'm 100% poositive there are a ton of crappy TCMA schools, however i will only speak of mine.
I would say when you are recognized internationally form your system and ranked in that system that is in place for many decades in sveral countries its credentials are as good as any. what makes NYS credentials any better than say H.K USA CA?

[EarthDragon]

frost,

nope of course not you should look for the schools that dont compete because they are above that and too skilled

My school/students only competed once becuse we were personally invited by a friend wo owns a TKD school. We dont do tourneys becuse they have gotten really commerical, they dont replicate real fighting, they are way too political. they give a flase sense of achivment. I know I used to fight ISKA full contact in the 80's and 90's and also I was a judge for few years.

MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school,

I will partially agree on this, however I know competition politics and the best fighters dont always win, we all know this....... MMA comps are slowly getting as corrutp as PBA on a smaller scale. it just happned here in NY the better fighter did not train at the school who sponsered the monety for the fight and lost. go figure



And it depends how those trophies in the window were won, if it was by competiing in fighting then its probably a good school to go to if one actually wants to learn fighting, if they won them in forms comps its probably a good school to attend if one wants to do forms well, go figure competition being a good indicator of a schools worth, who would have thought that?

Perhaps you have not been around the circut as long as I have but sponsership money, who knows whos, stratch my back guys will always be around. Not all the good fighters are in competition. You shoudl know this, for a lot of guys its not about the trophey.
I know alot of forms people who frown on commercialized competitions and we hate Wushu, so this is NOT a good measure of excellence.

fellas, dont get my wrong I was invloved with the UFC from the beginning, my teacher was on the board and I personally helped bring it to MY city Buffalo NY and Niagara Falls NY so Joel my kung fu brother who I trained with could fight in it., and he did and won both his alternate bouts.
I also hosted the world Pancrase Champion Yoshiki Takahashi and worked with the president of the WORLD PANCRASE CREATE INC. Masami Osaki and they came to the US and trained at my school.
I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting........all Im saying is it has its place.

[EarthDragon]

PS please understand that when I post on here I do try to post things that can always be backed up, not just words or rants, LOL although sometime I rant like everyone else. :D
this I just scanned out of my MA biz card binder, so you dont think I am just a TMCA guy, all things have thier place, I am usually in the middle and can see both sides of everything i think this is wise, hopefully all can do this and not be SO one sided.
5842

[taai gihk yahn]

OK I will partialy agree with you here, however in my expereicene the TKD schools that turn out great tourney fighters are not tough perse and usually cant fight for ****e on the street. I would have to say if you follow rules for too long its hard to fight outside those rules based on engraining. this is the same with sport fighters If you do something to much and to long its hard to do it another way would you agree to this ?
yes, if we are talking about Olympic TKD, because the rule set is highly restrictive, much more so than MMA; because the MMA rule set allows for much greater variability and options for techniques, it limits a lot less than TKD does; same w/ point style tournaments, and to some extent even boxing, wresting and judo, although at least you are using more viable techniques at full speed and power than in TKD: meaning that boxing limits to punches, but these punches do not become ineffective if you allow the use of kicks and grappling; vice versa for wrestling and judo; w TKD, if u open up the rule set, a lot of what they do becomes very low percentage (all the spinning, jumping and axe kicks, for example), and also they develop the horrible habit of fighting w their hands down bec they don't have to protect themselves from punches


what makes NYS credentials any better than say H.K USA CA?
because the credentialing is, ostensibly, set up with based on an understanding of the needs of the local population, and the oversite is immediate - what can a HK org. do to limit the claims or operation of an individual in the US? what sanctions can they really impose? not much, really; whereas if as a NYS licensed practitioner, if u break the law, make illegal claims, are negligent w ur clients, then they have immediate recourse that can really impact you and your business; therefore, u r more likely to abide by the rules set for your profession

[mantid1]

Yes the military does use live rounds. For targeting and precision. When it comes to working strategy against another living breathing humans......they do not use live rounds. It would be silly.....but if we could convince our enemies to train this way....using live rounds against each other in training....well, it would make it much easier for us.:)

There are successful MMA schools around....but I dont think the bulk of thier money is made from the few guys they have competing and winning. It comes from the average guy that thinks he is into serious training. Face it.....just because you join an MMA school does not mean you will have the heart and courage to go the course. We can help a student with confidence but when it comes to courage I believe that has to be bred. The MMA instructor has to coddle, baby and reassure the average student the same way the TMA instructor has to. They have to pay the bills...plain and simple.

Training MMA is very intricate and time consuming.....more so than TMA. I guess that is why I hate to see a couple of guys slapping around like a couple of drunken *****es comparing themselves to the highly trained MMA fighters.

Just curious....how many of the warriors here that are experts on warfare and fighting have actually served in the military. Of those of you who have who has seen actual combat?

I know there are warriors on this site that have served as well as in combat.....and I thank them for thier service!

[EarthDragon]

TAAI

yes, if we are talking about Olympic TKD, because the rule set is highly restrictive, much more so than MMA; because the MMA rule set allows for much greater variability and options for techniques, it limits a lot less than TKD does;
rules are still rules, my point is when you train differently then you will act in real life there is a difference and not a measure of skill.
MMA guys dont worry about getting kicked when thier kneeling, and they dont worry about thier groin or eyes or tops of their heads, so this is not REAL life, however i will agree it is more real life than any other fighting sport for sure. but it will never overcome TMA.



because the credentialing is, ostensibly, set up with based on an understanding of the needs of the local population, and the oversite is immediate - what can a HK org. do to limit the claims or operation of an individual in the US? what sanctions can they really impose? not much, really; whereas if as a NYS licensed practitioner, if u break the law, make illegal claims, are negligent w ur clients, then they have immediate recourse that can really impact you and your business; therefore, u r more likely to abide by the rules set for your profession

True to a point however that can govern much more than MA and i hate our governemtn so I like to be free whatever that men in this country :confused: but as an example I am licsenced to practice accupuncture all over the world, however because I have not paid NYS thier fees and taken thier tests they will not let me pracice, this I know however it doesnt mean I dont know accupunture or that i am not recognized in other countries just because the US doesnt recognize? NYS sux no matter what you do its all crooked politicians with ther hands in our pockets stealing our tax money for coruption so NYS is a good example so if they say it OK then its OK? B.S
I dont conform to goverment rules so PLEASE lets not use policitics, to make our points its a sore spot for me.... thanks

[EarthDragon]

Mantid1

Training MMA is very intricate and time consuming.....more so than TMA.

PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE take this back. LMAO this stament is the most ridiculous statement anyone has ever made in the short history arguement of MMA vs TMA.

MMA classes are fighting ONLY
.
TMCA is herbology antatomy, taiji, qi cultivation, meditation, the list goes on and on. some of these things take YEARS.............


fighting is only a small piece of TMA and the most basic at that!
anyone with a fist can fight, and technically that is really barbaric, there are many people in the world who train thier art to much higher levels..................

saying a staement like this makes for foolish conversation, I mantid I do enjoy your posts and its not a personal attack but come on brother, lets come back to logic and viable discussion.

[Phil Redmond]

Of course you want to go to the ground if you have expertise in that area.
Dale, there are some instances where it's not smart to go to the ground regardless of expertise.

[mantid1]

Nooooooooooo!!!!!I wont take that back:)

I am not talking about the qigong, medicine, tai chi, philosophy......the list goes on and on. for the record these are the reasons I love the arts.....make you a better fighter...nah...but they can make you a better, happier and healthier person.

Fighting.....I just need to keep my mouth shut or a baseball bat:)

My comparison is with the kung fu actual fighting and legitimate fighters.....we can call them mma guys if we want. Like I said before I hate to see to guys claim to be skilled fighters slapping around like drunken *****es. A good MMa fighter uses skilled stand up techiniques that can be boxing or mantis....ect. We would both have to agree to be good in this area you have to drill, fight train...A LOT. Then the good mma guys will add the nice throws form BJJ, judo or whatever that go above and beyond what some of the KF stand up grappling covers. Not sure how much ground fighting you have done....but the training, drilling have to be extensive to become good at this. It takes a lot of work and its not just raslin like a couple of kids....it takes skill. So, as far as fighting goes you will need to train at least 1/3 more because of the ground fighting...not considering the extra stand up grappling that can be done.

I am talking about trained MMA fighters compared to the Kung Fu fighter. The mma guy trains only for fighting. He doesnt care if he kicks a certain point on the kidney meridian at 5am in Oct on the tenth year of the dog that it can make his opponent home sick.

Dont get me wrong....I prefer traditional arts. I still think there is a sick perversion with wanting to watch another person sit on top of someone and punch them in the face.

I prefer traditional arts as a way of life.....fighting is the base but I have learned many more beneficial lessons from the arts than fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Dale, there are some instances where it's not smart to go to the ground regardless of expertise.

Of course there are. What is stupid is to think that you never want to go to the ground. Some situations it is better to stand. Some situations it is better to be on the ground. To think otherwise is the sign of someone who is completely clueless.

[Knifefighter]

. but it will never overcome TMA.

MMA overcame the TMA mindset years ago.

[Knifefighter]

I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting........all Im saying is it has its place. [/B]

Analone is not a Gracie Certified black belt. He is under DeLaRiva. (Shouldn't the guy who is hiring him to teach at his school know this?)

Here's a short list of bjj instructors who ARE "certified by the Gracies" in New York
Renzo Grazie
Nick Serra
Matt Serra
Joe D'Arce
Alexandre “Soca”
John Danaher


There are also a variety of Machado certified black belts and several other world champion bjj teachers such as Vitor Shaolin who also teach in New York.

[Dragonzbane76]

fighting is only a small piece of TMA and the most basic at that!
anyone with a fist can fight, and technically that is really barbaric, there are many people in the world who train thier art to much higher levels..................

well we should probably take the "martial" out of TMA then and just call it Traditional arts.

Martial is about fighting and is the heart of it. If you wanna call it just a "basic" example of TMA then we should just call it something else. Barbaric or not it is what it is and fighting is the source.

[Frost]

frost,


My school/students only competed once becuse we were personally invited by a friend wo owns a TKD school. We dont do tourneys becuse they have gotten really commerical, they dont replicate real fighting, they are way too political. they give a flase sense of achivment. I know I used to fight ISKA full contact in the 80's and 90's and also I was a judge for few years.

MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school,

I will partially agree on this, however I know competition politics and the best fighters dont always win, we all know this....... MMA comps are slowly getting as corrutp as PBA on a smaller scale. it just happned here in NY the better fighter did not train at the school who sponsered the monety for the fight and lost. go figure


?

Perhaps you have not been around the circut as long as I have but sponsership money, who knows whos, stratch my back guys will always be around. Not all the good fighters are in competition. You shoudl know this, for a lot of guys its not about the trophey.
I know alot of forms people who frown on commercialized competitions and we hate Wushu, so this is NOT a good measure of excellence.

fellas, dont get my wrong I was invloved with the UFC from the beginning, my teacher was on the board and I personally helped bring it to MY city Buffalo NY and Niagara Falls NY so Joel my kung fu brother who I trained with could fight in it., and he did and won both his alternate bouts.
I also hosted the world Pancrase Champion Yoshiki Takahashi and worked with the president of the WORLD PANCRASE CREATE INC. Masami Osaki and they came to the US and trained at my school.
I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting........all Im saying is it has its place.

sorry but none of this makes any sense, if you want to learn how to fight at an MMA school its easy to find a good school, since MMA is competition based you go look at the local comps and see who on average has students always placing in the top 3 of comps or whose winning record is above average. Claiming things like we dont compete because of politics or the good fighters dont always win is just excuse making on average things even out.

Heres an example if i wanted to learn MMA today and i looked at 2 schools, one didnt compete and only 1 guy from the school had ever faught in a full contact event, at the other school 7 guys had competed last month all 7 winning their fights and has another 6 guys competing this month which school should i pick if i wanted to learn good MMA and compete myself?

hell if i only wanted to learn for fun and self defence i'd still pick the school that competed and did well because at least their i actually know what is being taught works

[goju]

Its gonna be niece once the older generation of martial artists are gone so we dont have all these people clinging on to these delusions

[EarthDragon]

mantid,
So your staement was specific to ONLY the combat part of MA? then , OK no need for a take back LOL perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

dragon

Martial is about fighting and is the heart of it. If you wanna call it just a "basic" example of TMA then we should just call it something else. Barbaric or not it is what it is and fighting is the source.

But it is only once facet of a multiple faceted art none the less...

frost, it may not make ssnse to you poesonally but you cant speak for anyone elses opinion, its OK to agree to disagree no worries, different thoughts and perpective is what makes the world interesting.

goju,
for centuries this debate has gone on and willl continue to go on. If you think differently then you are the one who is delusional.:D

[Phil Redmond]

Of course there are. What is stupid is to think that you never want to go to the ground. Some situations it is better to stand. Some situations it is better to be on the ground. To think otherwise is the sign of someone who is completely clueless.
Exactly... :D I was just pointing out your statement that you "want" to go to the ground if you have the expertise. That's all.

[mantid1]

Yep Dragon.....I was just talking about the fighting aspect. MMA can build character and teach other things.....but cant compare to the traditional stuff on a whole or as a way of life.

To me the biggest threat I have is daily life.....trying to stay mentally and physically strong and balanced, teach my children how to live a good life and try to be good people, fit into society witout judging to harshly and hopfully not be judged.

MMA is fantastic for fighting but as a way of life......ehh....I think I will stick with the tradition.

Granted....there are good and bad people in MMA and TMA.

[Three Harmonies]

Funny... MMA comes from those arts with "tradition" and yet you all think it has nothing to do with an "art."

[goju]

goju,
for centuries this debate has gone on and willl continue to go on. If you think differently then you are the one who is delusional.:D

How can it go on for centuries when some of these subjects werent even around to be discusssed lol:D

The only thing that has been around for centuries is frauds who wont demonstrate their techique and those who will

[mantid1]

I dont recall anyone saying that.

Its an art. Just like wrestling or fencing.

[BJJ-Blue]

No matter which style/art you go with, just make sure they train 'alive'.

[EarthDragon]

goju,
the debate on what fighting style is the best, is what i was reffering too, dont be so close minded and think tht people we are only speaking of 1993-to present MMA................

technically any MA that has more than 1 way of fighting is a MMA.
praying mantis is made up from 14 styles, its a MMA.

[DBAC]

How can it go on for centuries when some of these subjects werent even around to be discusssed lol:D

The only thing that has been around for centuries is frauds who wont demonstrate their techique and those who will

That's right, because people didn't start fighting for real until the UFC and MMA. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

goju,
the debate on what fighting style is the best, is what i was reffering too, dont be so close minded and think tht people we are only speaking of 1993-to present MMA................

technically any MA that has more than 1 way of fighting is a MMA.
praying mantis is made up from 14 styles, its a MMA.


MMA is a sport. The name MMA evolved from the name UFC which evolved from the name vale tudo.

A system that is made up of many styles is not MMA.

[MightyB]

no matter which style/art you go with, just make sure they train 'alive'.

true!




---

[goju]

That's right, because people didn't start fighting for real until the UFC and MMA. :rolleyes:

Did i say that you silly Illiterate doofus? Read the bloody thread first before you comment. It will save you from looking like a jack ass in the future:p

[DBAC]

Did i say that you silly Illiterate doofus? Read the bloody thread first before you comment. It will save you from looking like a jack ass in the future:p

Yes you did. Can't make the connection then I feel sorry for you. :(

[MightyB]

trying not to sound pr!ckish here but, why are we having this topic on the Mantis board? This is premium main forum content gold. Going back to the original posted pic, there are absolutely no mantis correlated moves anywhere in that pic. Could those types of moves complement mantis? Absolutely

- but, as it stands now - there's no small angry mantis guillotine or black tiger mantis rear naked choke. :cool:

[goju]

Yes you did. Can't make the connection then I feel sorry for you. :(

My post you quoted wasnt implying anything of the sort nor were any of my previous posts. I'm sorry but your arguing against a point no one is making,Be wise enough not to do that in the future.:cool:

[EarthDragon]

goju

Did i say that you silly Illiterate doofus? Read the bloody thread first before you comment. It will save you from looking like a jack ass in the future

Your comment was spun off of when i said this debate has been going on for centuries, and you comemnted .............
How can it go on for centuries when some of these subjects werent even around to be discusssed lol

So yes you did imply it was only about modern day MMA.
however you should really refrain form calling people names, to get your point across

[Lucas]

rarely is going to the ground and asserting your dominance over another person on a nice sandy beach full of thongs, tight booties and biznatches going to be a bad decision. unless you lose. haha

[goju]

goju


Your comment was spun off of when i said this debate has been going on for centuries, and you comemnted .............

So yes you did imply it was only about modern day MMA.
however you should really refrain form calling people names, to get your point across


Yes key word isSOME. I did not say everything and why someone would immediately conclude i was talking about fighting not exsisting before the emergence of MMA is idiotic. If i come off as rude that is because i do not have much tolerance for stupidty.

Stop and use your thinking caps gentlemen. A wide variety of theories have been put forth in this thread, Not one revolved around when teh Realz fighting exsisted so concluding anyone is speaking of this is nothing short of ridiculous.

[notanexit]

Yep Dragon.....I was just talking about the fighting aspect. MMA can build character and teach other things.....but cant compare to the traditional stuff on a whole or as a way of life.

To me the biggest threat I have is daily life.....trying to stay mentally and physically strong and balanced, teach my children how to live a good life and try to be good people, fit into society witout judging to harshly and hopfully not be judged.

MMA is fantastic for fighting but as a way of life......ehh....I think I will stick with the tradition.

Granted....there are good and bad people in MMA and TMA.Good parents are supposed to teach you how to live.I was nice to people before I did kung fu.Your post reminds me of the cult-like nature of most kungfu schools.Learn the "way of life".The cult leader(sifu) tells you stuff like dont fight.That way you'll never find out that you've been learning garbage.MMA has a put up or shutup mentality.Because they are confident that they're learning the real deal.

[EarthDragon]

notanexit

The cult leader(sifu) tells you stuff like dont fight.That way you'll never find out that you've been learning garbage.

hang on non, so your saying that when a teacher of martial arts preaches dont fight its a cult? I tell my srudents all the time this is for self defense use it when you need it. I always say dont fight unless you have to, but when you do here how to end it quickly and easliy...... am I cult leader or teaching garbage?

[notanexit]

hang on non, so your saying that when a teacher of martial arts preaches dont fight its a cult? No,you need to go read my post again.....slowly.But some kung fu schools are cult-like.The teach me the"way of life" type of thinking goes along with these kung fu cult schools.
I tell my srudents all the time this is for self defense use it when you need it. I agree,good advice.But thats where it should end,the "way of life" is taught by parents and your family.
I always say dont fight unless you have to, but when you do here how to end it quickly and easliy.Fighting someone that is really trying to hurt you isn't "easy",I know it seems easy against a compliant partner who is standing still so you can do deadly techniques.Thats the false sense of self confidence that cult leaders(sifu)gives their followers(students)
...... am I cult leader or teaching garbage?Both

[EarthDragon]

I agree,good advice.But thats where it should end,the "way of life" is taught by parents and your family.

this si not always true, i used to teah in the city and the up brignoign there was questionable to say the leaset, abadon fathes, mothers who hook strip or have drug abuse problems. It was my duty to instill dicipline, proper behavior and morals. No diferent than a pastor, coach or school teacher. If they are not getting proper guidnece at home a MA school is the next best place


Fighting someone that is really trying to hurt you isn't "easy",I know it seems easy against a compliant partner who is standing still so you can do deadly techniques.Thats the false sense of self confidence that cult leaders(sifu)gives their followers(students)

obviously, but its up to the students to practice what is shown to a level the they are ABLE to perfrom the techniques taught to them,. This is the problem with most schools. They rush through thier ciriculums so fast, that the students dont have enough time on any one tech. to work before he is shown the next one.
This is why people discredit TMA they havent put enough time in to make it work, then they blame the entire system and say kung fu isnt good for fighting like MMA LOL


...... am I cult leader or teaching garbage?
I can assure you the answer is neither.

[mantid1]

Earthdragon......not sure why you feel the need to jusity yourself and teaching your art to people on this forum.


You just need to remember all of the parents who thank you for working with thier children and making a difference....the adult who needed to lose weight and you helped them through it......the guy who avoided the fight because you taught him to keep his mouth shut...the ten year old that you taught for only one year shows up ten years lateer and tells you that you made a difference.....the list goes on and on.

[BeiTangLang]

O.K....you guys want to chit chat about things,..please message each other.