Weapons? What's best?

[gunbeatskroty]

What's a good system for weapons training?

I'm looking to learn weapons. Specifically straight sword & spear.

I've never done weapons before other than playing around with nunchuks as a kid.

I'd like to learn the straight forward, killing, slashing techniques, countering, etc. w/no fancy stuff. Just straight to business in the fewest moves as possible. Thanks. :confused:

[Dragonzbane76]

buy a gun... end of story.

[gunbeatskroty]

buy a gun... end of story.

dude, i have AK-47s, pistols, etc. i just want to learn sword & spear fighting.

[KC Elbows]

If you're looking in kung fu, the best at applying spear I've seen were from hsing yi, though I suspect some schools are better than others.

Either case, you need a school that is not basing training on just knowing a form, but actual usage.

[David Jamieson]

dude, i have AK-47s, pistols, etc. i just want to learn sword & spear fighting.

buy a dvd.

take up fencing.

I can't think of any kung fu teacher that would start anyone with weapons.

for me, the reasons are obvious, but for someone outside looking in, not so much. prepare to be disappointed if you do find someone who is willing to give you weapons sets without the underlying skills development required.

Otherwise, yeah, stick to guns. lol

alterantely, you could go learn escrima or kali and those introduce stick fighting etc early on in the regimen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does it have to be TCMA ??

David's suggesting of DVD is not a bad one.
Weapons are all about the feel and an instructor can give you some pointers to cut the learning curve, but if you do test cutting you'll find that out quick enough too.
In the end, unless you are looking for something practical, it's all in fun anyways.

[SanHeChuan]

Wudang Sword - Tai Yi Daoist Form and Applications (YMAA) 武當劍 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrtfH_VgGZ0)

[YouKnowWho]

- Get a 4 road Maio Dao DVD.
- Find a training partner.
- Get 2 bamboo swords.
- Put some ski goggles and ski gloves on.
- train your 2 men drills.

[gunbeatskroty]

I can't think of any kung fu teacher that would start anyone with weapons.

for me, the reasons are obvious, but for someone outside looking in, not so much. prepare to be disappointed if you do find someone who is willing to give you weapons sets without the underlying skills development required.

Is it b/c they're afraid that I may go out and use it for illegal purposes? I'm kind of getting this vibe at this KF school that I'm checking out. It can't be my base as an MA b/c I'm busting up the pads and w/e they're asking me to do with my 3+ years of MMA and a bunch of years of TKD before that.

Weird. In my state, I can buy 2 legal AK-47s per month, have tens of thousands of rounds of ammo shipped to my home and bring in 50 rounds mags, 100 round drums, w/e. If I'm up to no good, I wouldn't be using a spear.

[David Jamieson]

Is it b/c they're afraid that I may go out and use it for illegal purposes? I'm kind of getting this vibe at this KF school that I'm checking out. It can't be my base as an MA b/c I'm busting up the pads and w/e they're asking me to do with my 3+ years of MMA and a bunch of years of TKD before that.

Weird. In my state, I can buy 2 legal AK-47s per month, have tens of thousands of rounds of ammo shipped to my home and bring in 50 rounds mags, 100 round drums, w/e. I wouldn't use a spear.

a gun is a superior weapon and doesn't require physical precepts to the extent that classical weapons do.

nobodies afraid about legalities, although, it isn't in the best interest of anyone to teach martial arts to anyone of discernibly low character. Not that you are, I'm just saying.

however, with a gun, you can spend an hour to learn how to use it and you're good to go really.

not so with a weapon that takes somewhat more skill to learn how to use properly, retain and get good with such as blades and blunts are. Otherwise, you're just some schlub flailing about with a sword and where is the fun in that.

typically, weapons are not taught right away when it comes to Kung Fu.
typically, you would learn staff after you have gotten the precepts of the style down and can demonstrate that and then after that a sword, usually big knife or darn dao which is like a machete.

using a sword is not like shooting a gun or banging a bag or even fist fighting or even mma. It is another art form unto itself and it takes a while to be able to effectively use such an antiquated weapon.

yes, you can hack, slash, thrust and parry, rotate, draw and flip that sword, but can you retain it when you strike with it, can you move with it, can you actually get your targets with it. That's what is learned through practice and believe me when I say, it takes a little while.

probably about a year to get a good grasp on big knife alone.

spear is another shape and another series of principles to absorb, learn and apply through continuous practice.

[gunbeatskroty]

Hey thanks guys for all the suggestions. From training in nothing but MMA and being constantly bombarded with UFC stuff, it's very refreshing to see those cool videos of the forms and such. Maybe I should look into the artistic aspect of weapons training also.

[SanHeChuan]

Most people don't spend (waste) time teaching classical weapons applications because it's just not applicable today. They teach forms, maybe show you once the applications so you do the movements in the forms right and leave it at that.

There are some schools that are part of Chinese fencing leagues through.

world jianshu league (http://www.worldjianshu.org/)

See if one of the teams is in your area. There is another league but I don't remeber what it's called.

[gunbeatskroty]

not so with a weapon that takes somewhat more skill to learn how to use properly, retain and get good with such as blades and blunts are. Otherwise, you're just some schlub flailing about with a sword and where is the fun in that.


So they're mostly afraid that I may hurt myself? None of the practice swords are sharp though right? And they wouldn't let me spar right away even with blunt swords.

Like if I were to take a fencing class, they wouldn't make me go through a lot of hand to hand fighting basics. I think this KF school that I'm at doesn't focus too much on weapons while leaning more towards MMA. There were only about 5 weapons in the dressing room. Other KF schools I've seen, have them out and nicely displayed.

[taai gihk yahn]

Is it b/c they're afraid that I may go out and use it for illegal purposes? I'm kind of getting this vibe at this KF school that I'm checking out. It can't be my base as an MA b/c I'm busting up the pads and w/e they're asking me to do with my 3+ years of MMA and a bunch of years of TKD before that.

Weird. In my state, I can buy 2 legal AK-47s per month, have tens of thousands of rounds of ammo shipped to my home and bring in 50 rounds mags, 100 round drums, w/e. If I'm up to no good, I wouldn't be using a spear.
here's the "dirty little secret" about TCMA weapons - back in the "old days", if you were a serious, professional fighter (e.g. - bodyguard, mercenary, bandit), you used weapons - in fact, you used whatever weapon was the most efficacious and advantageous one you could find; empty-hand combat was NEVER preferable, especially against armed opponents in groups;

so, if you as a mercenary decide that you don't want to fight to the death for your supper every day, another way to make $$$ was to teach kung-fu; now, you can do it one of two ways - open a school teaching the weapon you specialize in, train people quickly and effectively, and send them on their merry way to teach others your hard-won "secrets", and possibly even come back and kill you; or, you can teach empty hand first for 10 years, then teach less lethal weapons like staff, and then, only after a few decades, how the good stuff to the people who have been around long enough that you can trust them;

over time, this whole myth about needing years of empty-hand training to "prepare" you to use a weapon took on a life of its own; but it's ridiculous - look at Japanese and European sword schools - it's sword from day one - not standing in horse stance for years before you are even allowed to smell weapons - I mean, honestly, if you were really training people to be effective fighters, you'd teach them the good weapon stuff first, and then all the other stuff later on, if at all;

so the current convention is basically a vestigial remnant of a legitimate approach from 100 years ago, but which now has no intrinsic merit

[jo]

W
I'd like to learn the straight forward, killing, slashing techniques, countering, etc. w/no fancy stuff. Just straight to business in the fewest moves as possible. Thanks. :confused:

Join the Marines.

-jo

[David Jamieson]

So they're mostly afraid that I may hurt myself? None of the practice swords are sharp though right? And they wouldn't let me spar right away even with blunt swords.

Like if I were to take a fencing class, they wouldn't make me go through a lot of hand to hand fighting basics. I think this KF school that I'm at doesn't focus too much on weapons while leaning more towards MMA. There were only about 5 weapons in the dressing room. Other KF schools I've seen, have them out and nicely displayed.

seriously, you will develop a great understanding of sword work by taking up fencing.

make an effort to try all three principle shapes 4 sided blade, 3 sided and 2 sided.
You can transfer that onto pretty much and almost any other blade configured in a similar manner and you most certainly will get refined stuff as well in teh learning of foil, epee and sabre.

societies for hoplology and creative anachronism may not satisfy you. Often, this can be hard core larping more or less and you can get frustrated banging guys with dulled claymores while wearing 45 lbs of chainmail and armor on yoru saturday morning...

it is the driving principles of a weapon, dictated by it's shape and intended function that are more important than any form you could be taught.

...and tgy is right, there is attachment to a point of view in kung fu that you may not find sensible at all in order to learn a weapon and sadly, more often than not there is not many who are highly proficient with the dang things but can do great forms. lol that's just the truth of it.

...and don't count on not hurting yourself if you don't ahve someone show you a few things. that in fact really does matter. everything requires basic training and there are "rules" for every weapon and it's use.

[gunbeatskroty]

Join the Marines.

-jo

haha, there are plenty of Marines, Army Rangers, regular Army, etc. in our dojo and when they first start out, they tap out just like any other garden variety white belts on the BJJ mat. in boxing & Muay Thai, it's worse b/c now they get hit in head.

one of our MT instructor is ex-marines, and he's a very good fighter, but it wasn't the Marines that taught him how to fight. i would image that the Marines doesn't teach, uh, swords nor that much detail with a big knife neither....b/c they have freakin' M16's and a radio to call in air strikes and shiznit.

[gunbeatskroty]

here's the "dirty little secret" about TCMA weapons - back in the "old days",

Thanks, this is very interesting stuff and it makes sense.

[gunbeatskroty]

Most people don't spend (waste) time teaching classical weapons applications because it's just not applicable today. They teach forms, maybe show you once the applications so you do the movements in the forms right and leave it at that.

There are some schools that are part of Chinese fencing leagues through.

world jianshu league (http://www.worldjianshu.org/)

See if one of the teams is in your area. There is another league but I don't remeber what it's called.

I think this is the case with this Wu Shu school. There are only like 5 weapons and they're clumsily bunched into a corner of the dressing room. Other schools, I've seen them nicely displayed in stands throughout the main workout area.

[gunbeatskroty]

- Get a 4 road Maio Dao DVD.
- Find a training partner.
- Get 2 bamboo swords.
- Put some ski goggles and ski gloves on.
- train your 2 men drills.

The tough part is finding a partner. I'm gonna check on this DVD. Thanks.

[gunbeatskroty]

Wudang Sword - Tai Yi Daoist Form and Applications (YMAA) 武當劍 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrtfH_VgGZ0)

This is really cool. this brings me back to when I was a kid watching Run Run Shaw KF movies in 35mm at the theatres. Too much MMA in everything makes me appreciate this even more, thanks.

[gunbeatskroty]

If you're looking in kung fu, the best at applying spear I've seen were from hsing yi, though I suspect some schools are better than others.

Either case, you need a school that is not basing training on just knowing a form, but actual usage.

First I was thinking that I only want to learn the actual usage aspect of sword fighting, but after watching some of the videos, I think I want to also learn the artsy forms now.

[gunbeatskroty]

Does it have to be TCMA ??

David's suggesting of DVD is not a bad one.
Weapons are all about the feel and an instructor can give you some pointers to cut the learning curve, but if you do test cutting you'll find that out quick enough too.
In the end, unless you are looking for something practical, it's all in fun anyways.

Seems now, I think I'd like to try to learn the artistic forms too and not just the block/slash, block/slash techniques only.

The Japanese style is more suited for fast, no nonsense, kill techniques right?

I think I want to stay with TCMA for the artistic forms. Having good control of the blade through forms should transition well enough into a duel right?

[gunbeatskroty]

seriously, you will develop a great understanding of sword work by taking up fencing.


Looks like fencing or another KF school may be my route. Seems like this Wu Shu school wants me to go through their entire WS curriculum. I like to watch KF do their forms and such but right now, I don't want to detract from my Muay Thai training for an upcoming MT fight. I do like sparring with these WS guys though.

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/667833/nuclear-o.gif

[Reyth]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/667833/nuclear-o.gif

LOL. The best weapon.

[Scott R. Brown]

here's the "dirty little secret" about TCMA weapons - back in the "old days", if you were a serious, professional fighter (e.g. - bodyguard, mercenary, bandit), you used weapons - in fact, you used whatever weapon was the most efficacious and advantageous one you could find; empty-hand combat was NEVER preferable, especially against armed opponents in groups;

so, if you as a mercenary decide that you don't want to fight to the death for your supper every day, another way to make $$$ was to teach kung-fu; now, you can do it one of two ways - open a school teaching the weapon you specialize in, train people quickly and effectively, and send them on their merry way to teach others your hard-won "secrets", and possibly even come back and kill you; or, you can teach empty hand first for 10 years, then teach less lethal weapons like staff, and then, only after a few decades, how the good stuff to the people who have been around long enough that you can trust them;

over time, this whole myth about needing years of empty-hand training to "prepare" you to use a weapon took on a life of its own; but it's ridiculous - look at Japanese and European sword schools - it's sword from day one - not standing in horse stance for years before you are even allowed to smell weapons - I mean, honestly, if you were really training people to be effective fighters, you'd teach them the good weapon stuff first, and then all the other stuff later on, if at all;

so the current convention is basically a vestigial remnant of a legitimate approach from 100 years ago, but which now has no intrinsic merit

Now I'm gonna have to kill you!:mad:

[goju]

Take up fencing or kendo for the sword and live in the jungles of the amazon with some igenious tribe to learn how to use the spear:D

[tiaji1983]

My favorite weapon is the Fan. If you carry a bamboo fan, it is completely legal, and it is good for confusing your opponent and disarming, and it can be used to strike vital points and stings if your slapped with it. The bamboo fan is the only weapon I know of thats legal to be taken on an airplane.

[David Jamieson]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/667833/nuclear-o.gif

Your style is the bomb, THE BOMB! The bang, The bang, Diggy Diggy! :D

[gunbeatskroty]

My favorite weapon is the Fan. If you carry a bamboo fan, it is completely legal, and it is good for confusing your opponent and disarming, and it can be used to strike vital points and stings if your slapped with it. The bamboo fan is the only weapon I know of thats legal to be taken on an airplane.

That's pretty scary that this can get onto an airplane. I'm pretty sure that if a person have sandpaper with them, they can sharpen it enough in the bathroom to slash throats.

This is an excellent idea actually. You probably can still be charged with using a deadly weapon if you mess someone up real bad with it, but a good lawyer should get it reduced to your never intending to do so and only using it as a cooling fan....and just happened to use it as a weapon in self defense.

I have this spetsnaz fighting shovel in my trunk. It's pretty cool. A very legit shovel that's also a well balanced weapon for swinging & slashing. The edges are so sharp that it cut through big tree roots with ease. I have to keep it covered to not cut myself while digging in my car. I haven't even sharpened it neither.

http://www.1sks.com/store/cold-steel-92SF-special-forces-shovel.html

[Drake]

Actually, guns do require a skill set. Unless the guy is at point blank range, if you don't know how to properly aim, squeeze, and breathe, you stand a better chance of hitting something or someone else than what you intended. And even AT point blank range, there are a number of things that can go terribly, terribly wrong.

[SPJ]

1. bamboo sticks and rocks/pebbles.

all the sharp weapons were banned in the 1960s Taiwan.

being a kid growing up in the 1960s.

my first weapon training was with bamboo sticks and pebbles,

why, they are widely available.

you may wield the bamboo stick as if it is a sword or short stick

due to flexibility, you may even whip the stick.

2. roped pebble, instead of robed dart

we all have to start somewhere

3. staff is considered as the weapon of all weapons.

weapon training usually starts with staff training.

staff training may be converted to spear and other weapon training readily.

however, you may start with sword and spear as you wish.

:)

[Lokhopkuen]

My favorite weapon is the Fan. If you carry a bamboo fan, it is completely legal, and it is good for confusing your opponent and disarming, and it can be used to strike vital points and stings if your slapped with it. The bamboo fan is the only weapon I know of thats legal to be taken on an airplane.

I'm with you in that the fan is one of my favorites. I carried one for years as a bouncer in night clubs:D It's a gentelman's sword when the wearing of a sword might be inappropriate LOL!

[PlumDragon]

If you want to do staff then youre going to have to go with some form of Kung Fu and just wait until they give you a go-ahead. If you are ok doing knife, short stick, dulo dulo, etc then there is no better option than FMA. Most Filipino systems address these types of weapons on day 1, and I personally feel that learning these weapons early on provides an interesting degree of appreciation and understanding for the mechanics of empty hand work that cannot be had without training the stick first.



I think I want to stay with TCMA for the artistic forms. Having good control of the blade through forms should transition well enough into a duel right?I think youre just joking...? If not, lets just be real clear, that the answer to that question is by and far, resoundingly and glaringly, NO!

If you were just kidding, which I suspect you were, forgive me for stating the obvious...

[Violent Designs]

This guy says he does MMA/full-contact fighting regularly and if true then I'm sure he just wants to study the weapons/forms for the "coolness factor," like movie-fu, wushu or whatever.

So I would say... maybe find a modern Wushu center?

[gunbeatskroty]

I think youre just joking...? If not, lets just be real clear, that the answer to that question is by and far, resoundingly and glaringly, NO!

If you were just kidding, which I suspect you were, forgive me for stating the obvious...

I wasn't kidding. I was becoming mesmerized by this video that someone on this thread showed me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrtfH_VgGZ0

(not with the guy, but his sword play...although that also sounds gay)

Are you saying that this is not a good idea? First I wanted to learn the bare essentials for combat only. But now after seeing these videos that are more artistic, I'm becoming more interested in such forms.

Most of this is for fun and I'm looking to get good to play battlegeek with these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8BJttOMktk

Then for the long run, should there be a TEOTWAWKI situation, it would be a good skill to have should I run out of ammo.

[gunbeatskroty]

This guy says he does MMA/full-contact fighting regularly and if true then I'm sure he just wants to study the weapons/forms for the "coolness factor," like movie-fu, wushu or whatever.

So I would say... maybe find a modern Wushu center?

Yea, I'm checking around KF schools and currently I think it's this modern Wushu type school that you're talking about that I'm trying out at now. I'm still traing at the BJJ/MMA school as the main place (which I don't want to replace), but just want to join the weapons class 1-2 times a week. Probably 1/week, but they seem to want me to go through their whole curriculum.

But them being a modern WS style, they don't seem to stress much on weapons. There's only like 5 swords and spears propped up in a corner. No display stands, no shine, nothing.....dull & dusty looking. I may have to check elsewhere.

[gunbeatskroty]

I'm with you in that the fan is one of my favorites. I carried one for years as a bouncer in night clubs:D It's a gentelman's sword when the wearing of a sword might be inappropriate LOL!

Check out this fan. Do you think it's a good one?

http://www.blade-empire.com/Martial_Arts/Weapons/Fighting_Fans/Kung-Fu_Fighting_Fan.shtml

I don't like the KF, swords and Y&Y symbols. That's saying weapon right there and may pose a problem when the cops asks about it...especially if you just used it on someone.

[Lokhopkuen]

I wasn't kidding. I was becoming mesmerized by this video that someone on this thread showed me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrtfH_VgGZ0

(not with the guy, but his sword play...although that also sounds gay)

Are you saying that this is not a good idea? First I wanted to learn the bare essentials for combat only. But now after seeing these videos that are more artistic, I'm becoming more interested in such forms.

Most of this is for fun and I'm looking to get good to play battlegeek with these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8BJttOMktk

Then for the long run, should there be a TEOTWAWKI situation, it would be a good skill to have should I run out of ammo.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=4W98A6MxfL0

[gunbeatskroty]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=4W98A6MxfL0

what are those videos?

[Lokhopkuen]

Didn't you say that you are interested in the sword:rolleyes:

[gunbeatskroty]

Didn't you say that you are interested in the sword:rolleyes:

firefox won't open those videos.

[ironclaw1981]

my favorite weapons are the broadsword, chain whip, ropedart!!! I actually love watching the broadsword and chain whip used together, now thats quite the blender of death!!!

[Lokhopkuen]

firefox won't open those videos.

Works on my box...

[gunbeatskroty]

my favorite weapons are the broadsword, chain whip, ropedart!!! I actually love watching the broadsword and chain whip used together, now thats quite the blender of death!!!

I remember the ropedart from that movie Shaolin Temple (think it's also called Master Killer). Like the best KF movie ever. It even has a pretty decent story along with it.

[Northwind]

Both good movies, but actually they're two completely different ones. Shaolin Temple was Jet Li's pop on the scene, and Master Killer was a Gordon Liu flick.