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Kong Jianshen
12-20-2000, 09:32 PM
Anyone have extensive training in Filipino and Indonesian unarmed arts? I heard they are pretty practical. If anyone has trained in these and has any information to an outsider it would be appreciated. Kuntaw? Unarmed filipino art sounds interesting. Kali has the best knifefighting I have seen yet .

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

GinSueDog
12-20-2000, 09:44 PM
It depends on the style you are referring to, just like Kung Fu has hundreds of styles, so does Kali, Silat, etc.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

Knifefighter
12-20-2000, 09:52 PM
I believe the Filipino and Indonesian arts are the way to go for stick and knife training. I know people will disagree with me on this one (and at one time I would have disagreed also), but I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts.

Kong Jianshen
12-21-2000, 12:19 AM
GinSueDog- Always good to hear you post. I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can't recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind :)

Knifefighter- "I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts."

Great point. I will give that some thought. Maybe only cause thier knifefighting rocks, who is to say they're empty hands do? Maybe i'll live those arts for weapon training.

Although, I have heard some stuff about certain Silat grappling technqiues. They use more gouging, clawing, and nasty techniques which can be equalizers when facing against a better grappler.

I also heard the filipino styles emphasize destructions, and use of elbows which I like. Anyone training for street effiency, cannot overlook elbows. But, Thai Boxing also has elbows down pretty good.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

GinSueDog
12-21-2000, 12:38 AM
As Guru Dan Inosanto put it at a seminar I went to last year, almost everyone in the country side in the Philippines is armed with at least a machete. So I would figure there knife/stick work would have to be better then there empty hand. Just remember to take it with a little salt, not every Kali or Silat instructor trains it like the Dog Brothers do. As for the grappling in Kali or Silat, dirty tricks are nice but against a good grappler you may not get the chance to even use them, I know that the Kail that is incorporated in PFS was pretty helpful is making me more aware of my positioning and what dirty tricks could be used on me from those positions, if anything it helped my grappling street wise, but I wouldn't rely on dirty tricks.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 12-21-00 at 04:44 PM.]

Kyoshu
12-21-2000, 04:00 AM
I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can't recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind

- They are all quite different. Sikaran is very similar Tae Kwon Do, from what I have seen from the Black Kimono Group in Cebu. Not to sure what you mean by Filipino Dirty Boxing. The two types of Kuntaw that I have seen are quite different. One was very similar to Okinwan Goju Ryu and the other was Tat Kun Tao, which is very much like Doce Pares. I have seen some Dumog, but have found Judo to be more effective. I train in Sikadsu (short for Sikad Suntok) which is a mongrel of Arnis, Judo, Karate & Muay Thai, but we tend to get most of our striking from Muay Thai and Karate as opposed to Arnis.

Kyoshu

Kong Jianshen
12-21-2000, 05:11 AM
I don't think anyone trains it like the dog brothers :)

Man those guys are really good. Talk about training with realism in mind. I belive thier training makes someone who can actually fight.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

iamaloser
12-22-2000, 06:04 AM
Unlike most martial arts, many Filipino martial arts styles start the beginner learning weapons first, in many cases, the single and double sticks. Don't get the wrong impression because since the empty hand is secondary, the empty-hand techniques are more vicious and less merciful than say tai chi or aikido.

Filipino martial arts was created by suppressed Filipinos during the occupation of the Philippines by the Spaniards centuries ago so Filipino martial arts evolved differently than Chinese, Japanese, and Korean where those arts influenced each other. Therefore, the training methods and philosophies of combat may seem alien to students of the other styles.

JerryLove
12-23-2000, 08:28 AM
Knife, count me in the group that likes Indo empty hand work. Of course, it varies by style.

I am not familier with the styles you are talking about, though I have various levels of exposure to the William Reeders, "Uncle" Willem DeThaures, and Chiku Madgid lines of Silat (Serak, Tjimande, Harimau, Madi, Seti-Hati, Baji, Tjikulung, some Pukilans, etc.) and would be happy to discuss any of those.

Taomonkey
12-24-2000, 01:35 AM
Jerry,
If you dont mind me asking, what was your exposure to Reeders line Kun Tao.

As for those of you who believe that many FMArtist are weak in teh empty hand side, please continue to think that way. It's called underestimation, you make a blanket statement about such a varied collection of Martial Arts (Fhilippino), where much has yet to be seen by most Americans. I know there are those here who believe its junk if I say what I can do with my stick or knife, I can do with my hand. But believe me when I say that the traditional weapons trainings of the PI, produce a quite different style of empty hand fighting. While some movements may be similiar to what we do with our weapons, the hands change teh range and thus how you fight must also be changed. My weapon is just an extension of my hand.

JerryLove
12-24-2000, 01:47 AM
Tao - reasonably limited. My instructor has spent some quality time with Guy Savelli, and I have been through a few of his seminars. I also spent some time with Sifu Lenny (never did ask him his last name) who taught Reeder's liniage Kuntao in Ft.Meyers,FL until his death.

BTW, the clip is kinda suckie but here is a 10sec clip of our phase 1 empty-hand work. Clip (http://www.clearsilat.com/silat/democlip.wmv)

[This message was edited by Jerry Love on 12-24-00 at 05:55 PM.]

Knifefighter
12-24-2000, 02:13 AM
I used to believe that the "weapons are just an extension of the hands". I don’t any more. My opinion is that, while there is a bit of transfer from one area to another, you fight differently with a knife, stick, rapier, staff, spear, broadsword, katana, empty hands, etc. I believe that you need specific training for a specific type of weapon (or lack thereof) and that empty hands fighting is much different than with a weapon. While I am a big believer in the Filipino arts for sticks and knives, I think there are other arts much better for empty-handed fighting.

JerryLove
12-24-2000, 02:27 AM
I agree. Unless you can lacerate with your hands, they are not knives. And knives are not swords. I think you can create some crossover (our emptyhand and knife fighting are very similar to one another. Swordfighting would not be) but it is wrong to believe that there isn't a difference between armmed and unarmed.

I would point out that IMA and FMA are not the same and with FMA and IMA are *many* arts that are also not the same. I think that the empty-hand work in silat is excellent, espically when looking at empty against a knife.

Taomonkey
12-24-2000, 09:43 AM
Knife,
Never said there was no difference. What I was trying to relay is that through my FMA training that my weapon work is as comftorable and as fluid as my empty hands. One instinctively knows where your hand is at all times, I do not have to think about reaching for the glass, I only reach for it. It is this that is the goal of our weapons training. As for how we teach empty hand yes it varies from how we teach weapons, since the novice usually has not made the leap to extension. What you seem to be relaying is begining movement, and I am not sure if you have had any advanced training. I dont mean any insult or offense but I hear what I hear. I see very little difference in movements of advanced CMA or IMA from the more advanced movements of Mano Mano. The traditional movements that I speak of seem to be missing from the more modernised ecletic groups of FMA out there. Where several have used Lee's philosophy and discarded what they thaught as useless, yet those "useless" things would have eventually led to some understanding of the more advanced movement, but such is the curse of us Americans I guess, we want our moneys worth, we want it all up front and have little time for traditional training, and thus many of us never see what the art can bring.
Jerry,
I hope I dont ofend you as well, but I dont call what Sevelli is teaching Reeders line Kun Tao. Let me say that I have never met the man, and only can forge my beliefs from what I have seen of his video and printed material. He openly states that his kun tao and his "mental" techniques were learned after his departure from GM Reeders, and even went on to state that "it was this ability that Master Reeders acknowledge and feared in a challenge match." Truth being that if there had ever been such a match Sevelli would not be here to make such statements. If you have connections in Florida and seek true Reeders line Kun Tao, it would do you well to seek out Master Carl Spitoli, I think he's in Florida. I have had the privilege of seeing several masters who trained under GM Reeders, including Spitoli, Joe Salamoni, and GM Arthur Sikes (Master Reeders right hand student), and their movement makes Sevelli look like a beginer.
As I said I mean no disrespect to either you or Knifefighter, I have always enjoyed your post and value both of your opinions. This is just my thoughts, weigh it how you want.

Knifefighter
12-24-2000, 10:00 AM
TaoMonkey:
Maybe you are right and my training in FMA was not advanced enough to see the effective empty-handed applications. Can you give some specific examples of how the advanced weapons movements of which you speak are also applied unarmed?
6

khinbu
12-24-2000, 04:43 PM
[message deleted]

khinbu
12-24-2000, 04:44 PM
There are many types of Indonesian silat, or Pencak silat, or Maenpo, many names to these exotic MA.

Silat is a martial art mainly practiced in West Indonesia, although there are some Mid- Indonesian style.

For example, in Jakarta there's Betawi people which originally resides in Jakarta, and the type of silat they practice are quite many. Just name it: Jingkrik, originally comes from Rawabelong, West Jakarta, famous in Jakarta by its exponent, si Pitung, who lived during Dutch colonial in Indonesia, mainly practiced in Kemanggisan, Rawabelong, and Kebun jeruk, West Jakarta. Beksi, mainly practiced in Slipi, West Jakarta. Gerak raksa, of unknown origin, practiced only by few practitioners. Al Hikmah, Islam-influenced silat, mainly practiced in West Jakarta. Kelabang nyebrang (crossing centipede), Naga ngerem (Crouching dragon), Kelabang muter (circling centipede), three types of silat which were said to be derived of Shandong (China) Martial art, mainly practiced in Tanah abang, Central Jakarta. And there are still many more unrevealed system of silat in Indonesia. An interesting thing, though, that the term 'Kuntao' is used to describe a mixed system of Silat and Kungfu, and this system is well-known for its finger strike (striking with fingers). And there's a very clear connection between Indonesian silat with other places' silat, even to Phillipines Silat, and seeing the term 'Silat', it obviously shows Indonesian influence.

The types of silat Jerry Love mentioned, for example, Cimande (or Tjimande, older spelling), is still not yet revealed all to outsiders. It is practiced in Cimande, West Java, but the true holders of the skill are of the Cimande dalem or Tarik olot area. Personally I don't believe that any Westerner can learn this style as it is sometimes impossible for even Indonesian people to obtain this skill in the real place. As far as I know, one of Cimande practice is to do "Sugarcane beating", that is beating fresh sugarcane to the shin, arm, and different parts of the body until the sugarcane breaks. Setia hati is a system mainly practiced in Central Java, Madiun if I am not mistaken, and it has many branches in Indonesia. Cikalong (not Tjikulung) is also a system coming from West Java. There are many systems with the name "Silat Harimau". One of the rare systems of Silat Harimau is in North Sumatera, and I believe it has not been taught to Westerners as it comes out to the surface not a long time ago. And who is Willem de Thouars? Can anybody tell me what type of silat did he learn, and who was his teacher?


Wish in peace

JerryLove
12-24-2000, 09:55 PM
Taomonkey, no offence taken. If neither Savelli nor Lenny represent Reeders, than I do not have exposure to Reeders system. At this point, I am not after reeders system in particular. And while I am always happy to get new material, I am happy with my study under Richard Clear here in Tampa. The liniage is a little mixed, but I like the material quite a bit.

JerryLove
12-24-2000, 10:48 PM
WfP - Try his page here (http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/home.html)

Taomonkey - Wasn't it Williem Reeders who gave himeself the title "Liu Seong-Dai Sensei" (According to Arthur Sikes (Sensei is Japaneese)) which translates (again according to Sikes) into "Master of all Masters of all Styles".

Where can I find information on him, because what I read doesn't make me want to seek out a teacher in his liniage very much.

MonkeySlap Too
12-24-2000, 11:01 PM
It has been my observation (and I hold teaching certificates in CMA and FMA, and am currently studying IMA, and no, I don't know everything, this is just my experience) that FMA because of thier expertise in blade work (in my opinion superior to CMA) thier empty hand skills are not as effective as the CMA.

Just my personal opinion. Based on lots o' fighting. The funny thing is, I was pretty much a guy to beat in my FMA school empty handed, but wth blades it was one of the girls who always cut me up. So wether you think one or the other is superior is really moot once the blades come out.

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JerryLove
12-24-2000, 11:18 PM
Fortunately there is a whole line of arts (in IMA) where the blade-oriented islanders and the CMA Chineese met and the arts adapted.

I don't have a great deal of FMA experience to make the contrast personally, but I notice most of the people talking about poor empty-work in IMA seem to be saying they saw it in FMA and are painting IMA with the same brush.

Of course, I've seen some IMA I didn't like, so it's possible we are just looking at different IMA. And of course, my school teaches CMA so I just might be getting an even more ecclectic style than most.

MonkeySlap Too
12-24-2000, 11:36 PM
The IMA on the other hand have some really cool empty hand stuff as well as bladed stuff. But the IMA that have impressed me the most are the Dutch Indo variety - not the stuff I've seen from Indonesia or Malaysia. Yet I keep hearing the natives complain about the Dutch Indos. Is this racism or envy? Or is there really something special we haven't seen or is it just the Wizard of Oz hiding behind the curtain?

I really am curious, and am not trolling. Can these 'secret' or 'real' methods be defined?

JerryLove
12-25-2000, 12:11 AM
Well, We did bring Chiku Magid (Head of the Seni Gayong style of Silat) over. He's not Dutch that I am aware of. Unfortunatly, after shipping him over from Indonesia, what they taught at the seminar was very basic (painful but basic). So if the non-Dutch are hiding something, asking them for it isn't enough. Well have to get someone to break away and start teaching it openly.

Of course, that's not just a problem with the non-dutch. I've seen the Dutch Indos do seminars at various schools. What they teach at ours, and what they teach down the street, is not the same. They hide whatever they can get away with.

Kong Jianshen
12-25-2000, 06:01 PM
Hey Jerry you hit an interesting note there with the Reeder's liniage Kuntao in Ft.Myers. When I lived there I had a friend who met a guy who said he did Kuntao up until his master died. I always wondered about that and after hearing what you said I guess its very real. Can I ask you for a short description of the art? And are there any people left in the Ft.Myers area still doing it?

I used to live in Ft.Myers :) Nice place.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

JerryLove
12-25-2000, 07:00 PM
Hey. Describing it to you would be easier if I knew what to compare it to (a frame of reference we are both familiar with). Have you seen the pentjak arts? Kuntao varies from them mostly in it's interest on being on the inside (pentjacks and pukilans tend to like outside positions). The postures tend to be rather compressed, expanding to hit and recompressing to grapple. Again the pentjacks tend to reverse this.

Sifu Lenny was fond of the whip (as is Savelli). He was very into building up aggression and visualization. He had some good students (we had one move up to Tampa and join our Silat school). I'm sorry I didn't know him better.

Yea Ft.Myers is pretty nice. Some dayse I feel it's got more than here (couldn't find an open resturaunt here last night, know a couple in Ft.Myers). I don't think any of his former students are teaching :( but I am sure some are still down there.

WongFeHung
12-25-2000, 11:50 PM
I am privledged to have had the opportunity to train Sayoc Kali with Tuhon Chris Sayoc. His art is like southern Kung-Fu with blade! Knife chi-sao-so to speak! And his unarmed technique is just as developed. In many cases many of the hand positions that holds the knife are also unarmed natural weapon formations, so the theory that Fillipino/Indonesian arts, once disarmed are not as developed does not in all cases ring true.

Kong Jianshen
12-25-2000, 11:58 PM
It just so happens that my friends works with this guy who did with him for 6 years. Im gonna see if he is willing to chat sometime; he's a nice guy I hear.

Is it similiar to Wing Chun jerry? I noticed the rapid fire strikes and sensitivity training. Very interesting internal development to it seems.

You've opened my eyes to a art I never knew existed! :)

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

Tigerstyle
12-26-2000, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dog brothers! Arrrr!

I don't think anyone trains it like the dog brothers.

Man those guys are really good. Talk about training with realism in mind. I belive thier training makes someone who can actually fight.[/quote]
Here is something pretty amusing I found on the Dog Brothers website:

www.dogbrothers.com/ufc.htm (http://www.dogbrothers.com/ufc.htm)

It's a letter that says their stickfighting is "too extreme" to be showcased in the UFC. Yikes!

JerryLove
12-26-2000, 01:00 AM
BTW Kong, you'll find some stuff up on my website Clear's Silat (http://www.clearsilat.com) including a (poorly captured) clip (there's a link in the bulliten's section). I just ordered the DV camera and hope yo have much better stuff in a few months.

Kong Jianshen
12-26-2000, 01:51 AM
Thanks for the link Jerry! I didn't know there was silat so close by :) very cool stuff. It looks pretty brutal with its gouging and clawing techniques. I never thought there was much of it in Fla either.

Hey Tiger, the dog brothers website is awesome man. I must say it again; these guys are HARDcore and the real deal.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

JerryLove
12-26-2000, 02:20 AM
Actually what I think you are referring to isn't a claw, it's just a grab. Gouges certainly occur (eye sockets are good for grabbing the head) but are mostly incidental or distractions (whip the eyes, get a reaction)

BTW, if you are in Tampa, feel free to stop by. Best time to catch me is at the Thursday night class, but everyone there is great.

Taomonkey
12-26-2000, 10:19 PM
Jerry, this is about the third time I've typed this so I may miss some points, but here goes.

Sevelli and Reeders did train together for a brief time. I know nothing of Sifu Lenny. What is in doubt about Sevelli, is his teaching ceredentials. It is my understanding that Sevelli never recieved any advanced training. My point is that where Sevelli has taken his system looks nothing like what I have seen by those who have a more solid connection to Reeders. To me it looks like Chimunda mixed with a little Pentjak Silat.
As for the titles.
Dai Sensei was given to Reeders by the Japanese in recgonition to his family, his training and his experiences within the Kodokan. Lie Seong is both a family title and the Chinese name of Reeders. He recieved the title at the time of his Uncles passing. What is told of GM Sikes on the web page you reference, is stating that Arthur Sikes has never laid any claim to the Titles Dai Sensei or Liu. There have been some in the past that have said Sikes gave himself these titles, in efforts to discredit him.
I hope this helps, or makes things more clear.
Have you seen any of Sevelli's tapes? Especially the one he gives away for free in his Black Belt add? What is your opinion of them?
If you would like I can send you some footage of some of the Masters I am talking about and you can draw your own conclusions. My email is Taomonkey@yahoo.com
Hope this clears some of this up. :)

JWTAYLOR
12-27-2000, 12:16 AM
Well I have that tape and I'm more than happy to comment.
Nuts, the guy is nuts.

He puts on his video tape that he can actually transform his face and eyes into that of a big cat. Actually change his eyes to a cat's eyes!

He claims to be able to cure cancer and other deadly illnesses with relatively little meditation and by saying his "formula".

During 90% of the techniques he does on his dummies he actually has his back turned and his eyes closed.

He tells people to stare at a wall until their eyes dialate. WHAT!?! Even better, get the tape and listen to how you are supposed to know if your eyes are dialating.

And don't even get me started on his "special forces" training hoax. A complete misrepresentation on who he is teaching to.

It is VERY difficult for me to believe that any intellegent person could be fooled by this crap. It is just this kind of hocus pocus self proclaimed "master" b.s. that gives the martial arts a bad name.

But please, don't take my word for it, get the tape. Judge for yourself. I'd give you mine but I keep it around to show at parties for a good laugh.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

JerryLove
12-27-2000, 12:20 AM
I'll put it this way. I went to one Savelli seminar, I have not been to any since.

On his behalf I will say his whipping is good and he has some interesting reflex exercises.

Taomonkey
12-27-2000, 03:25 AM
JWT,
OK, you see what I'm saying. As far as I have been shown there is absolutely none of his tape contained in any Kun Tao. The guy does have some problems. As I was told, once Sevelli asked Master Reeders about mental techniques and MAster Reeders told him to go stare at a wall untill he was afraid. Sevelli took him serious, and I about fell out of my chair when I heard him say that on his tape. The whole reason I ever asked about him was that he uses Master Reeders name in his advertisements and on his website. Which cast a shadow on what Master Reeders taught in the eye of anyone who see's that tape. In my life I have never seen anyone move like Master Reeders' students, they are powerful and lightning fast. Any opertunity to train with one of them should not be missed.

Chris McKinley
01-12-2001, 10:21 AM
I teach Inosanto/Lacoste Kali and Lameco Escrima as well as Baguazhang in the Moore/Norman area of Oklahoma. Pretty much have to agree with ya on the bladefighting evaluation. It's pulled my hindquarters out of the fire more than once.

JerryLove
01-12-2001, 12:03 PM
Taomonkey. Is there any footage of Reeders himself? If not, who would you recommend as a teacher in the liniage?

Kong Jianshen
01-12-2001, 07:45 PM
Yes yes Tao, Please answer Jerry's question, I would like to know too :D

The more I look at FMA and some IMA the better they look.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

Kong Jianshen
01-12-2001, 08:03 PM
BTW Jerry I still havn't been able to locate any Reeder students who are willing to teach. I know they are here; hell, I am about 80% sure they probally have some private garage group somewhere. Just can't talk to the right people! I don't think that knowledge would have just been forgotten. I will keep asking questions around tho.

Like I said one of my friends met one of his students and he said the guy demonstrated to him some very strong internal power. I found that interesting.

Now Jerry, I did find a guy in Tarpon Springs Fla who was a student of Willem Reeder for 21 years. Go here to Thouar's site and check it out under teachers:
<A HREF="http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/home.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/home.html</A>

Maybe you were already aware of this guy? He is still just out of my reach :( For now anyways hehe.

From what I read of Thouars himself, HE IS AWESOME! This was one of the first people I read of that actually sounded like he knew what he was doing when it came down to Animals (in his case the monkey). The Living Monkey guy from China is also good, but we are talking about Silat now :D
I read about Thouars studing monkeys for I don't know how many years, it was awesome.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

JerryLove
01-13-2001, 12:21 AM
Yes, I have met Sifu Tony. He used to teach here in Safety Harbor, but moved a bit ****her north. I actually first met him at a seminar with Uncle Bill that we were hosting at the school I attend. I though he was nice, but none of my discussions with him led me to really probe him for material. Is he considered a good example of Reeder's material? If so, I'll go take another peek.

Yea, Uncle Bill (Willem DeThaures) is something alright. And boy does he have stories. It helps to get his seminars at the right schools, the level of the material he offers is often dictated by the insturctor's ability.

Taomonkey
01-14-2001, 06:00 PM
Jerry yse there is some footage of Master Reeders around, I have a very limited ammount, but cannot release it to the public. As for teachers of his style. In Florida there if Master Carl Spitali, I dont have his address. There aer several in the Phoenix area, Master Phillip Selmone, and Master Joe Salamoni ( <A HREF="http://www.aisda.com" TARGET="_blank">www.aisda.com</A> ), currently Masters Reeders right hand student, GM Arthur Sikes is in Cleveland, adn has several insturctors in that area,Ohio/Pennselvania. I will try to send you some footage of GM Sikes and Master Salamoni if you would like to the address you emailed me. GM Sikes will be here in Oklahoma in the spring or early summer for a seminar, I will have to check on what he has scheduled. His organization is the North American Self Defense Association (NASDA). Let me know if you would like more info.
Peace

JerryLove
01-14-2001, 09:48 PM
That would be great. I will try to look up Spitali and find out where in FL he is.

thekuntawman
09-09-2001, 06:48 AM
i know this thread moved to a different topic but i want to go back to the original question about empty hand philippine fighting arts.

a lot of what you see on these videos and in seminars do not represent what you will find in the philippines for empty hand martial arts. a lot of what you see is guys who do not want to admit there style is stick and blade only, since nobody here wants that, so they try to say "my art is fully contained, we cover all kinds of combat". these people even try to learn aikido and jujitsu, then call it "fma grappling". many of them drop the weapons and try to do the same kinds of movement with the empty hands, and call it empty hands. so what you end up with is "patty cake drills" and empty hand "translations" that dont really work in the real fight.

if you were to go to a karate tournament or kickboxing match in the philippines you will see the philippine empty hands arts (and a lot of them do empty hands first, weapons later, or no weapons at all) and they are very very effective.

the problem is like trying to find a good boxing instructional video, you cant because the real trainers (even though you can see some good coaches that make the video) dont waste there time trying to make good fighters off of a video. you cant do it, only the lazy will try it, and no teacher with respect for himself will teach that way. some people woud make a video to sale to people who live far away, but it might be just a intro tape, but many of us are not interested in that because we have our own student to teach.

some of the good fighting styles for empty hands are kuntaw, silat, yaw yan, bakbakan arnis school (i forgot the name of there style of empty hand fighting), kyosho arnis school, mka, pka and arjuken. i dont think it will be easy to find tapes on this, except for some ex-kung fu teachers who teach their technique as "kuntaw silat", or something.

but just like if you wanted to be a lawyer you might have to travel to another city to learn at a law school, you will probably have to travel to lean empty hand philippine styles. the closest to you i know about is alice lanada baugh's kuntaw international in virginia beach, va. they are a strong fighting school in that area, but you will have to sign up there, she does not believed in this seminar business, just like most philippine fighters i know. if you would like to email me, i will look for her schools phone number for you.

JerryLove
09-09-2001, 03:15 PM
"some of the good fighting styles for empty hands are kuntaw, silat, yaw yan, bakbakan arnis school (i forgot the name of there style of empty hand fighting), kyosho arnis school, mka, pka and arjuken. i dont think it will be easy to find tapes on this, except for some ex-kung fu teachers who teach their technique as "kuntaw silat", or something."

KunTao (fist way) taught by KF guys is (in all likelyhood) Chinese.

KunTao Silat can be found on tapes from several practitioners. Williem DeThouars (www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com), Richard Clear (www.clearsilat.com), Steve Gartin (http://www.cafepress.com/gartin), Al Colangelo (sorry, no site). Tell any of them I said "hi" ;-)

I believe that Williem Reeders' liniage is also considered Kuntao. In which case add the likes of Guy Savelli (www.worldkungfu.com) (I know other Reeders students, but not that I know have videos).

Now, to add a third thing into the mix. In addition to the many Chinese arts that are "Kuntao" and the many Indo arts that are "Kuntao Silat", there are FMA arts that are also called "Kuntaw".

MonkeySlap Too
09-10-2001, 03:23 AM
I was reading ten tigers description of Sayoc Kali. It sounds cool. Anyone want to expand on that?

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