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jutsow
01-04-2001, 08:44 AM
i cant be the only one here who is disgusted with kenpo/kempo. i have in the past stated my disgust in kenpo/ kempo and been blasted for it but i refuse to believe that i am the only kung fu person on this site who doesn't become phisicaly ill at the mere mention of kenpo/kempo.

kenpo/kempo is at best a cheap and shoddy rip off of real KUNG FU[not wushu witch is 30 times worse than kenpo/kempo].

just my humble opinion. the one, the only, the incredibly insignificant JUTSOW.....oops i mean JUT SOW or is it JUTSOW, as if it really matters.
oh yea , thats right. i said it jut sow. after your done crying into your pillow you can get a life and get over it. :(

Julian Dale
01-04-2001, 12:10 PM
I understand that there are two schools of Kenpo, the er ..american version and the true monastic japanese version.

To which are you slating

The japanese monks were of some competance from my understanding - but are in no way linked to the ..er ..american version ??

MASTERMAN
01-04-2001, 02:53 PM
Jutsow,

It is good to have freedom of opinion. But with maturity let's hope you learn that a MA style should not be judged by a few shallow practitioners of a style.

Anyone on this Forum has seen bad or weak MA people, but you can't honestly condemn an entire style. Grow up.

You Have The Power,

Dave S :rolleyes:

Lucky Red
01-04-2001, 04:27 PM
i think most Styles have the same Potential
to be as good as any other style

it is not the Style it is How you train and How
Much you Train

.........,,,,,,,, Spread it Your self

JWTAYLOR
01-04-2001, 05:23 PM
The last time I asked this, I didn't get a real answer, other than you saying that you hadn't seen much kenpo. Which pretty much discounted every thing you've said so far. It's pretty stupid to slag an art and claim ignorance of it in the same sentence.

So, exactly what/who have you seen to give you this opinion? What is it about kenpo don't you like?

BTW, what and where do you practice?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Ironpig
01-04-2001, 05:52 PM
There certainly is a great deal of commercialism in this style, but I have to disagree.

Kenpo/kempo in the united states is a young art with virtually all branches coming from a single source in Hawaii: James Mitose.

Not a single person I have had the pleasure or torture to work out with when I practiced the style disagreed on that point or that he was legitimate.

There are also styles of Okinawan Kempo that have little to do with "american kempo".

There are many frauds in the martial world, both in china and in the united states. It is just easier to see them when they practice down the street.

There are many excellent practitioners of Kempo in the united states, they just don't dance around in gold lame' gi's like some choose to do.

I think you would be better served concentrating on your training rather than slamming what will probably die out on its own anyway.

Just a few pennies from a pig.....

IronPig

MonkeySlap Too
01-04-2001, 06:52 PM
I'd like to agree, but I cannot. I like the Shorinji Kenpo guys, and despite his mumbo jumbo I am really impressed by Bruce Juchnik. I think Kenpo, because of its 'openess' results in many really famous and really poor methods.

But there are some gems out there.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Terry
01-04-2001, 07:26 PM
Jutsow - you may want to check out <A HREF="http://www.kempofaq.homepage.com" TARGET="_blank">www.kempofaq.homepage.com</A> which is a very informative site about various styles of Kempo/Kenpo. This way you may develop a more informed oppinion about Kempo/Kenpo.

NorthernMantis
01-04-2001, 08:43 PM
I too am disgusted with kenpo. I apologize to the kenpo people out there but what I saw was horrible.You should have seen it.A couple of moths ago I had gone to Colombia for vacation and I saw this style called “white tiger”.I didn’t pay much attention to it but my friend who trains in it, they call it chaolin instead of shaolin , insisted that I go watch her class.I’ll tell you straight out what I saw was atrocious.It looked similar to the vids on the shaolin-do thread but it was more karate like combined with a weak type of boxing and tae kwon do kicks. Before I go on let me tell you what I noticed about this place that jut didn’t seem right.On the front wall I saw the words wushu/kung fu and Japanese swords hung on the sidewalls. As I heard conversations between the students they referred to chi as ki even though they practice chi kung.Also the uniforms were being called kimonos and the pants were extremely huge.They wore no shoes at all and used different colored sashes for rank when the teacher wore a black belt! After questioning the teacher or should I say the “si tai” of the school many times he turned his face and said it was a style called soun kempo (sp?). Then he changes his story and says it’s a “chaolin” style called white tiger,that his master is from the U.S.A and that his master is from Puerto rico.They have a few kempo schools there, not to mention the the fake eagle claw guy that I met from there a while ago but that is a different story.

Note:this was one of the few kenpo systems that I saw over there.

I watched the class and made me want to run in disgust. There was not a basic horse stance amongst them.Their butts stuck out and their feet were pointed 45 degrees or more outward. The hill climbing horse/bow stance hurt my eyes by just looking at it. The back foot was facing 90 degrees and the front foot was facing straightforward. They put all their weight on the cat stance.I don’t even want to mention what else I saw.

The forms were even worse.They held their fist in front of them like boxers and not once even in the basic from did they hold their fists by heir waist, something that is even done in karate.What I saw was not kung fu, not fluent but similar to karate. They jerked after some moves like karate and when they punched they leaned forward and the hill climbing/bow stance went from the back foot being flat to standing on the ball with all the weight in the front. Then the instructor told everyone how southern styles do more kicking and northern styles do more fists. Get this their shirt said Northern Shaolin.

Later on I saw them go to a tournament and for the masters demonstration the same teacher goes and does a form called chimmy chuan!Not only that but he yells it out getting louder and louder.He comes out in a black karate uniform barefoot as usual and starts acting like he is possesed.At this moment I can’t control myself as I begin to smile and giggle.He looks at at the crowd puts his arms straight down like in karate except his hands are open and starts saying out loud “I am john hairo I don’t what,black belt of the shaolin system,the master is Dr. osorio campo”he is yelling at this moment and then says “I beg you to give me permission to do the chaolin form named ..” and he yells the hardest at the top of his lungs “chiiiiimmyyyyyy chuaaaannnn!!!”.Not only that he later does a form called shaolin cha wa ching.He does the same thing thing here but at the end he takes the staff and drives it into the ground and yells the loudest way I have ever heard staying in a fixed stance for about 5 seconds like he has the worst constipation ever.

Oh and the chi kung. A local amateur tv station did an interview on them and I managed to see a chi kung demonstration.An instructor takes out a KATANA SWORDand says “yes this is one of the many weapons we teach in SHAOLIN”Then another guy takes of his shirt arches his back and puts what looked like a pre-cut potato on his beer belly.So the main man takes the Japanese sword and lightly chops the potato and the lady who was interviewing him was left in astnishment.At this point I was churning like I had a bad case of diarrhea from the embarrassment for them and was ready to pass out.

Then again what I saw could be a rip off verion of kempo.No ofense to the kenpo people but that is what I saw.

"Always be ready"

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 01-05-01 at 01:00 PM.]

Taomonkey
01-04-2001, 09:00 PM
Its not that kenpo sucks, real kenpo is an excellent martial art, to this day I am in awe of Mr Parker and his abilities. Its just that most of the hacks out there are using the word kenpo or kempo. I'm sure every town out there has had some schmoe with a wall full of certificates and at least 7 blackbelts proclaim his kempo the greatest with direct lineage to Sholin. Judge the instructor and his teachings, but please do not lump all kenpo practioners into the same basket. Just remember to beware of "soke's" and those with 7th degrees and higher with the majority of their certificates dated within 5 years of each other. Heck just look in BB mag and int ehback you can get your very own kempo Black Belt. Just because there are frauds out there doesnt mean everyone is. and besides they usually only last a few years anyway, or at least untill a student finds them watching a MA video right before class to firgure out what to show that night.
:rolleyes:

JWTAYLOR
01-04-2001, 09:05 PM
No offense taken.
But that's not kenpo. They are just bogarting the name.

I've definately seen equally rediculous Tai Chi Chuan practitioners. First year students refering to how their instructor teaches them to "see the chi flowing around the other person's body". And that their form is at least 6,000 years old. But that doesn't mean TTC sucks. It just means they have no idea what it is.


For fu(ks sake people, can you imagine how many kung fu forms we would have to throw out if we judged them all by every shool that used the word "Shaolin" in it's name?
JWT

Kong Jianshen
01-04-2001, 09:09 PM
Northern Mantis, that was the funniest story I heard in a long time.. I am still laughing :) haha I love the 5-second constipation stance!

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

MonkeySlap Too
01-04-2001, 09:09 PM
Yeah Northern Mantis, I have seen those kinda monkeys too, but CMA is full of them too.

Lets get back to generalizing about TKD - at least there we can be pretty sure the stuff doesn't work unless your opponent is slow, stupid and unsophisticated.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
01-04-2001, 09:10 PM
Wheee, just having fun. Sorry TKD guys n gals.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Terry
01-04-2001, 09:11 PM
NorthernMantis - my 16 yrs old son has a black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate and your descriptions of what you saw in Columbia sounds nothing like the training that my son has. It sounds more like a MAJOR rip-off or a miss-labeling of their style at best.

Sam Wiley
01-04-2001, 09:27 PM
I don't see why people pick on Kenpo so much. I fought a guy once who said he used to practice Kenpo. I don't know which style. But he was pretty good. We ended up calling the fight a draw. He also had a pretty strong jumping snap kick (or whatever it's called). And he put just as much intent into the stuff I saw as any good Gung Fu stylist.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

MonkeySlap Too
01-04-2001, 09:35 PM
I think some of the guff comes from things like 'Shaolin Kenpo' which shows very little understanding of cultural sensitivities as well some of the obviously 'made up' 'kung fu' you see in some kenpo schools.

The other thing is the line 'you were only showing me something that was in my art already, I just hadn't discovered it yet.' Yeah, right. A Kenpo guy fed me that line as I was teaching him how to use an esoteric piece of equipment. So I left him to figure out how to use it himself. After all, the knowledge is in his art, right? HAH!!

But not all Kenpo guys are bad eggs. Most of the good ones realize what they are doing is an American hybrid art and are proud of it. The deluded ones think they are doing CMA or even an improvement on CMA.

But remember, there are a lot of CMA frauds out there as well. CMA has had a bad rep also. Ah, for the days of the Lei Tai challenge or the Pan Lima... :eek:

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

HuangKaiVun
01-04-2001, 09:50 PM
jutsow and northernmantis, REAL kempo stylists are very hard to beat.

Imagine being on the receiving end of Jeff Speakman's ("The Perfect Weapon") combinations? Even though he does for the movies, his skill is obvious to those who know true martial arts power.

The guys I've seen out of Speakman's lineage (American kempo) are VERY VERY tough.

Knifefighter
01-04-2001, 10:01 PM
MonkeySlap Too:
What style(s) do you train?

Ironpig
01-04-2001, 10:07 PM
I found this thread to cause great anger in me.

I have tried over the last eight years to give up the anger from the emotional and physical abuse that I recieved from a "kempo" system.

I am suprised to feel the rage build in me again.

I am one of the people who have been lied to and swindled of money by a "kempo" system. The grandmaster of this system wears gold lame' and claims shaolin heritage.

I wasted four years and a little more trying to learn this system. I found good Kempo people to move on to when I could no longer take the verbal and mental abuse. I lost connection with parts of my family who were also practicing with me. I lost the trust of my family who thought I must have been in the wrong when I left because some of the family stayed. It took six years for the holes in my family to heal.

When I say I have seen the best and worst Kempo has to offer, I am totally sincere. There are very good honest Kempo people out there. There are also egomainiacs who have passable skill passing themselves off as grandmasters of ancient chinese skills while wearing japanese clothing. It seems really silly in retrospect.

Parker/tracy/jutchnik Kenpo/kempo tend to be very good. Most of the other systems are splinter organizations of the previous mentioned three teachers.

I have little enough contact with the Okinawa based Kempo, they always seemed sincere and skillful.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the friends I have in the Kempo systems I left behind, they are really sincere in their study. I also have to say they always look uncomfortable when I point out that they have to go outside their system to hear an honest word or learn realistic technique.

This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board, Kempo has NO relation within 600 - 800 years to chinese arts, Kempo is a JAPANESE art that was influenced prior to 1500 by chinese arts.

It just underlines the maxim: "a good teacher with an honest heart is worth their weight in gold"

Not gold Lame'

Just a rant from a pig..........

IronPig

Tigerdragon
01-04-2001, 11:23 PM
I am a Kenpo practioner. I love Kenpo, but also love martial arts in general. There is no reason to slam any true art. They all have their merits in one way or another. Some may be poor for the street, but may be good for your physical well being. Others may be exactly the opposite. Anyway, back to the topic:

Unfortunately there are more frauds in Kenpo then any other style in North and Central America. After the death of Mr. Parker the number of poor instructors and self made masters in American Kenpo doubled. These were people just out to use the name to make a buck and boost their own egos. I urge you not to base your oppinion on what you see in a single studio. Especially if you are not positive of the liniage. Check out a real I.K.K.A. afiliated school to see what true Ed Parker American Kenpo is like. Also there is a somewhat new version of American Kenpo developed by Mr. Paul Mills, one of Mr. Parkers personal students. He now heads the A.K.K.I. and it is the style I now study. I have no problem with people disliking Kenpo. Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion. But I would just like that people base their oppinions on the true form of Kenpo, not the frauds that are out there.
Respectfully,
Eric

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind, be ready, and go full force.

Tora
01-04-2001, 11:41 PM
test

Tora
01-04-2001, 11:51 PM
I don’t post around here very much anymore, largely because I got sick of “style wars.” Yes I have seen bad kempo. In my town you can’t go 3 blocks without hitting a kempo studio. Things IMO degenerated heavily after Ed Parkers death. People who were wearing a brown belt a few weeks before his death were suddenly black belts. Some of the locals seem to gain a couple of dan rankings every six months. Fraud is everywhere in the martial arts. I also have seen a good kempo school. They exist, but like ALL arts now, they are rare. I have trained longer than I care to admit. I would call over 95% of what I see out there as out and out BS. It is everywhere and it is in ALL the arts. BJJ hasn’t been around very long, but people with fraudulent lineage teaching BJJ for $$ are out there now and getting more prevalent every day. Buyer beware.

And for the CMA guys getting high and mighty about Kempo…LO ****ing L!! In a lot of circles CMA is considered a low power, flowery non functional BS art. I personally believe there is value in it if you can get to the right people. (not an easy task) But just know that for every finger you point at someone else laughingly there are four pointing back at you. Go train.

humblefist
01-05-2001, 12:53 AM
Poor you...the pain your eyes have seen...the pain...your stomach felt, keeping from laughing your guts out.

Disturbingly more is when some of his students move on to become "Master Sifu Sensei..." and create more of the "art".

Sorry to say that CMA is losing it's tradition and strength. As this and future generations come along, the less they can bring to the table, mainly because the true essence of CMA will be lost. CMA cannot be whole without the essence/philosophy, forms will not do it. Today, practioners do not have the time to study under someone as they did in generations past. I, too am a culprit to this. Only a few will possess this knowledge and our only hope is not to practice the physical part, but to take time and talk to our teachers. Bruce Lee knew of this and began to evolve the art from his philosophy and understanding of martial arts, not just WC, Crane, etc... , he did this like a true artist, whether its martial, sculpting, drawing, painting, etc.....

Peace

WongFeHung
01-05-2001, 02:12 AM
I have had the good fortune and the bad fortune to have studied and taught both 'old style' (1960's EP/Tracy) and "shaolin Kempo' franchise style. (hey, we all did some things we're not proud of, and I learned how to run a school(actually, how not to) on someone else's money) Old school comes more from Chow Kwai-Sun, who learned from his father Chow Hoon, and Chinese influence, is hard hitting, fluid, and brutal,and is very much like Hung-Ga applications,sans forms. The franchise style was totally bogus-Same gold-lame' Grandmaster. Animal techniques completely made up-check this out, they said, "any three kicks in a row is a Dragon technique" and "the white snow leopard uses his forearms and elbows" -****, I only wish I could show some of this dribble. They did what they called Pinan forms-only they did them kinda backwards, and their other made up forms were called "Ancient Chinese Kata number one, two, etc" their stances were completely lacking in any type of foundation, their knowledge of applied physiology, structure,connection, ging, was nonexistant. I had started as a teen in Bak Siu Lum,some Bak Mei,Wing Chun, and Tang Soo Do, then Old school Kenpo, and while I was working at this franchise style, I was already imersed in Hung Kuen. So here I was teaching wannabes wearing karate-kid headbands,and a patch for each animal plastered all over their gis,this garbage and my inner voice was screaming at me "NO! NO! NO!" It took a 12 yr old kid to wake me the $%*@ up, when at a 'special shaolin training seminar " with 'the Master" we were led through a shaolin chi kung set,and when the entire gymnasium full of followers were doing these ridiculous movements and hissing noises, this kid looks up at me and sez, "There are grown men doing this" I looked down at him and said' "we're outta here-now," well, 15 yrs later, it still makes me shudder.-But, old Kenpo, when done right, is good stuff, trouble is, now kenpo has a bad name due to these guys and everyone who left them and started offshoots of this bogus stuff. BTW Ralph Castro-who studied under Chow, also calls his art Shaolin Kenpo-don't confuse this with the new franchise styles.

MASTERMAN
01-05-2001, 05:01 AM
Please don't judge Kenpo by recent wantabes. Since Parkers death there has been alot of BS out there.

Traditional Kenpo is excellent. If in doubt come work out with me in Minnesota. You will see what the System is about... The system has roots in Shaolin but is more japanese in flavor.

Rapid fire application is our trademark!

You have The Power,

DaveS :)

NorthernMantis
01-05-2001, 06:14 AM
Terry,Jon Wayne Taylor

Yeah it might have been a really bad rip off of kempo.A couple of experinces like that should not have chnaged my mind in that way.I'm sorry for the post I apologize.What went through my mind when I wrote about my experience I'll never know.

Yeah kung fu has those people has the same problem so I guess everyone does also.

At least you people admit it's kempo and are proud of it.I had to drag it out of those people by asking annoying questions like "how come you have belts?I'snt actually pronounced sifu?"

I think I do have that masters demonstration with those fake kempo stylists somewhere but I think one of my brothers might have taped over it though.

"Always be ready"

rogue
01-05-2001, 06:17 AM
There is only one Kempo and it's Shoalin Karate Kempo and only one master and that's Grandmaster Freddie Vallari.

Please line up to the left in single file so I may dispatch all you unbelievers.

Thank you

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: **** I hurt myself again doing that.

NorthernMantis
01-05-2001, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But not all Kenpo guys are bad eggs. Most of the good ones realize what they are doing is an American hybrid art and are proud of it. The deluded ones think they are doing CMA or even an improvement on CMA.[/quote]

I agree.I think that is what the problem is with them.Like I said before at least some of the people on this forum are proud of to be in kenpo.It's the few deluded ones who think they have the true version of chinse martial arts(shaolin-do for example) that mess up things for everyone else.You have to be proud of your style no matter what it is.


One more thing when they saw my forms one time when I was practicing at the park(big mistake) they disregarded them as wu shu since it was more fluent and thought my system was a fake.

"Always be ready"

NorthernMantis
01-05-2001, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And for the CMA guys getting high and mighty about Kempo…LO ****ing L!! In a lot of circles CMA is considered a low power, flowery non functional BS art.[/quote]

Tora not to get offended but that flowery bs art is the art same that influenced kempo and many japanese styles so they're laughing at themselves at the same time.

I understand where you're coming from though and I'll admit it right now but my kung fu sucks(not the style but my skills).I also admit that I might have jumped to the wrong conclusions and started making too quick of a judgement when I shouldn't have.

Don't get me wrong though I just posted my experience.I hope we didn't start on the wrong foot we're all frineds here. :)

"Always be ready"

jutsow
01-05-2001, 07:10 AM
his school is one of the ones i am basing my opinions on. aside from being phisicaly fit they really had nothing to offer.

MonkeySlap Too
01-05-2001, 10:31 AM
One of my dirty secrets - I introduced 3 or 4 midwest Villari school owners to Bruce Juchnik, which resulted in a mass exodus from the Villari system, effectively breaking the back of that organization in my home state.

Just makes you beam with pride, don't it?

Even guys who were tricked by Villari were still men enough to see the problem and adopt something better. Of ourse it had to be something Kenpo centric so they wouldn't just reject it out of hand. So feel happy al you guys who got duped by that charlatan, there asre stinkers like me out there.

(For the record, I thought some of the Villari guys were pretty decent martial artists, with fewer holes in thier skills than say, TKD or Chung Moo Doe.)

old jong
01-05-2001, 05:21 PM
I have seen schools of that denomination.To me ,it looks like karate"A la sauce chinoise!"What are the origins of the style? Hawai?
I have the tendencie to think that true okinawan karate like Go-ju is closer to the chinese origins and has deeper values.
I have also read about the japanese style called;Shorin-ji kempo(shaolin in japanese I think)they preach a return to the shaolin heritage but it looks more like a mix of japanese styles to me. :rolleyes:By the way,they dress like monks! ;)

C'est la vie!

WongFeHung
01-05-2001, 06:50 PM
just a side note: when I studied 'old school chinese kenpo" I had to learn 30 self-defense techniques for yellow belt-(many with a,b,c variations, making way over 250 techs for BB) and in McDojo, they had you learn 26 techniques for Black Belt. This is why most of their BBs look like yellow belts.

Black Jack
01-05-2001, 10:17 PM
American Kenpo, Kosho Ryu, Tracy, Paul Mills, McSweeny, and Jutnick are great systems that put a lot of CMA schools to shame on the basis of teaching a practical form of pugilism from the get go.

Give me a break! Those few of you that stated that kenpo sucks are realy showing where your experiance level is at.

Regards

MoQ
01-05-2001, 11:09 PM
JEALOUSY?
LACK OF MA EXPERIENCE???

MA? Sure whatever...
Kung Fu? Nope, never anything but a parasitic relationship with CMA.

Ironpig
01-06-2001, 06:45 AM
If there was a Jutchnik associated school in my town...(since I didn't open one) I would be there. I would also be were I am now. The only Jutchnik authorized teacher to show up partnered up with a commercial karate school and teaches at a mc dojo. Last I had heard.

I do not think ALL kenpo/kempo sucks at all, just ALOT of it when its commercial.

If the school I study in now was as commercial I would leave and maybe move to another state to find a good school with all the areas of study I now believe are important.

I would not have spent so much time to pursue real education unless I had been given such a good meter stick to measure by with having worked with Hanshi Bruce Jutchnik. It had a deep impact on many decisions I have made and is definitely in line with a real study including language and culture.

I think the whole "I hate that art" rants are fairly jeuvenile, and I participated in it and believe that I may have been misunderstood.

I do not disrespect Ken/mpo, I have a personal dislike for certain practitioners that I have had contact with. They certainly do not reflect well upon their system with their behavior.

Hey, listen to a pig. Some arts are good and some are not so good. Mostly through the faults of human beings practicing them, not the art.

Just a few more pennies from a pig..

IronPig

jutsow
01-07-2001, 03:18 AM
i am glad my post recieved such a response.
now i know who all you kenpo wannabes are and will ignore your posts accordingly
no offene intened but
kenpo/kempo sucks
always has
always will,,,,,but hey at least its not wing chun. :rolleyes:

old jong
01-07-2001, 03:44 AM
Oh! oh! It is not nice to pickle...I mean pick on others like that! :D :D :rolleyes:

C'est la vie!

MASTERMAN
01-07-2001, 04:53 AM
Pickles are usually considered condiments for people consumption. You have been chewed so "sowy"


You Have The Power,

Dave S :p :p :p :p :p :p

JWTAYLOR
01-07-2001, 11:31 PM
I guess I started posting on this board around a year and a half to two years ago, I forget just when.

I started posting on a Kung Fu board even though I took American Kenpo, which is not Kung Fu, because of all of the rediculous bullsh!t people were posting about Kenpo. It's nice too see so many people in the kung fu community really do understand kenpo.

Kenpo is not Kung Fu. Nor is American Kenpo really Karate.
Some instructors suck. Some are great. Surprise Surprise. There are some real a$ out there. I don't count my lineage past anyone that I haven't personally trained with.
American Kenpo takes a long time to learn. There are no 3 year black belts that have learned enough to be considered anything near a black belt.
Shaolin Kenpo taught by Villari and Parker Kenpo have little to nothing in common.
American Kenpo only contains about 10% of what Mitose and Chow taught. That's according to Mr. Parker.
Mr. Parker left no "heir" to the kenpo throne.
Any "Kenpo" that Ed Parker taught is a modern system, and certainly not one that has ever been taught in ancient China.
Mr. Parker wanted kenpo to be modern. He said that like a bazillion times. Therefore, it must always change. Good instructors proudly embrace this challenge. That means that anyone who says their kenpo is the only real Parker/American kenpo since they have kept it exactly the way Mr. Parker taught it to them is sadly missing the point.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

jutsow
01-08-2001, 05:41 AM
thank you for helping me prove my point by showing the good people of this site how truly sad and distustingly stupid the average kenpo/kempo man is by opening your big pizza filled, beer swilling mouth.YOU SICKEN ME.!!!and if your not a kung fu man then what are you doing on this site. there arent any techniques for you to rip off here,okay sparky.
im just the one telling you how it is, THE ONE, THE ONLY, JUTSOW.
[just burns your bellybottun doesn't it jut sow]

kenpo/sucks
always has
always will
but hey, at least its not wing chun :eek:

Black Jack
01-08-2001, 06:09 AM
I should not even respond to your ignorant mouth but I would like to point out if everyone has not realized it yet but you are a no nothing little gimp.

Drag your sorry ass down to a solid American kenpo school and call out the teacher and watch as you get smacked around and your lunch money stolen.

Punk Ass :eek:

Regards

MonkeySlap Too
01-08-2001, 06:26 AM
Okay Jutsow, who are you? And how have you proved yourself?

JTW, through his writings and his open invites to people certainly has the benefit of the doubt with me. Yeah, Kenpo guys have historically tried to lift CMA stuff, and there's the famous 'I'm only discovering what is only in my system' line. But I don't here these from JTW.

A lot of Kenpo guys are hard working martial artists, and could care less about the 'sins' of thier forefathers.

For that matter - who cares? Tell me about any great CMA finder who didn't beg borrow and steal from every teacher and every fight he was in.

More power to 'em, I say. The proof will be on the floor.

HuangKaiVun
01-08-2001, 03:23 PM
I'll bet jutsow is not even a CMArtist.

I'll bett that he's just some troll trying to stir up trouble.

jutsow
01-08-2001, 06:42 PM
yes you are right, kenpo instructors really are nothing but thieving bullys. thankyou for pointing that out.

MASTERMAN
01-08-2001, 06:45 PM
Jutsow you are not worthy to answer in the future. When you attack people that's when you cross the line. Personally I would be proud to relegate you to quivering heap. Or I would give you a choice of how many weeks you would be in the hospital.

I humbly submit this on behalf of those you have BADMOUTHED, most recently JWT.

You are mine First, you feel the Power,

Dave S

:mad: :mad:

Terry
01-08-2001, 07:10 PM
I think jutsow has spent too much time on that pickle farm (see his profile), maybe his brain is a little pickled. What can you expect from a person who practices Pickle-Do.

JWTAYLOR
01-08-2001, 07:14 PM
Check my profile and tell me if I'm a "kung fu" man.

And yes, I will "steal" any technique that helps me be a better fighter. It would be pretty stupid not to.

Here's a good place to come to see a real glimpse of how someone fights with American Kenpo:

The residence of Jon Wayne Taylor
12068 Congress Avenue
Austin, Texas


And yes, Jutsow is a troll. No he doesn't take a martial art. No, he has no instructor and has no actual training. I've asked him twice now what and where he practices, with no answer. As you all know, there are "kenpo" schools of some type just about everywhere and American Kenpo schools have allot of locations as well. I bet if he would tell me where he is I could get someone to educate him about kenpo.

Given that, I would still like to thank everyone for keeping an open mind about all sorts of martial arts, including kenpo.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

FongSaiYuk
01-08-2001, 07:20 PM
Jutsow has now taken his crap over to the Wing Chun boards. I made the mistake of replying to one of his posts, not realizing what he started over here. Oh well....

-FSYS

Terry
01-08-2001, 08:56 PM
FongSaiYuk - you're right, I see him causing trouble on the other boards on this site. He had an heated conversation with "Jut sow", whose name he apparently copied, see the Northern Praying Mantis board under the discussion "jut sow / jutsow".

[This message was edited by Terry on 01-09-01 at 01:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by Terry on 01-09-01 at 01:08 PM.]

jutsow
01-09-2001, 12:26 AM
john wayne taylor or anyone else with the testicular fortitude can easily find me at THE MARTIAL ARTS CENTER FOR PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT at 119 hancock street, braintree, mass. ask for jutsow and i will come running to prove how fragile you really are.unlike j.w.t. i am not so copletely stupid that i would list my home address.

kenpo/kempo sucks
always has
always will
but hey at least its not wing chun

JWTAYLOR
01-09-2001, 01:23 AM
Ouch, sucks to be you. Mr. Proctor happens to be a fan of kenpo. I know and have some respect for your instructor. He teaches Chung Moo Do. Well, he teaches TKD, Aikido, Northern Preying Mantis, and some others as well, but his main art is Chung Moo Do. Normally, I would say the Chung Moo Do connection makes him the scum of the earth, but he actually condems the organization. If I remember right, that's why he broke off from them. He teaches the Chung Moo Do system away from the Chung Moo Do center.

It's unlikely that I'll be in your area any time soon. But I'll try and find someone that will be. For enlightenment sake. I'm sure Ken would approve. Hell, I'll ask him, just to make sure it's ok if he looses a student. From what I know of him, and what I know of you, I'm sure he won't mind.

Oh, and I post my home because there are folks on this board I'd like to have visit, and because little wusses like you would never dare to show anyway, and you aren't likely to have any friends at all, much less in the area.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

MonkeySlap Too
01-09-2001, 01:54 AM
Well Jutsow, if your learning Chung Moo Doe, your prety much screwed. I hope for your sake JWT doesn't show up.

Actually, I do.

Hey, I'm a Kung Fu guy who does Kali and Silat! Am I a thief? Grow up.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

rogue
01-09-2001, 02:43 AM
"i am not so copletely stupid"
:eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Tora
01-09-2001, 03:49 AM
A Chung Moo Do guy? Bagging on Kempo? BWHAHAHAHA!!!! Isn’t that like a cult? LOL! Drink the Kool-Aid, put on your Nikes and wait for the mother ship behind the comet. Time to head back to the planet Moo Doo! LMFAO!

MASTERMAN
01-09-2001, 04:58 AM
Unlike JWT I have students in the NE area. In fact they would welcome a little "payback" attitude for you. Just say the word, we need a human trophy mount.

If your really stupid come visit me. JWT is American Kenpo I could show you the pleasures of Traditional Kenpo: Dave Simmons
750 Hgwy 110
Mendota Heights MN 55123

Of course, I just found out that you have practiced Chung Mooo Dooo. Get serious or shut up Wannabe!

Please Come Feel The Power,

Dave S :mad:

jutsow
01-11-2001, 05:10 AM
sorry guys and gals, but i just couldln't let a beauty like this fall to the second page.

DrunkenMonkey
01-11-2001, 07:14 AM
Dude, Wushu is the same as Kung Fu.

Underaged Drunken Monkey

HuangKaiVun
01-11-2001, 03:53 PM
Yeah, jutsow.

I enjoyed seeing JWT humiliate your sorry ass publicly THEN, and I enjoyed seeing JWT humiliate your sorry ass NOW.

JWTAYLOR
01-11-2001, 05:22 PM
Jutsow, if you are going to talk tough then please stop crying to admin about me threatening you. It's embarrasing, really.

BTW, I had a friend call the school to see if you were there, his name is Pedro, he runs an American Kenpo and Shooto school in Braintree. If you are in the area and compete, that should be enough to figure out who he is, as he and his students regularly compete in nhb. He was going to see if you were interested in a friendly anything goes sparring match.
Funny, when Pedro called, Ken couldn't find anyone to own up to the name Jutsow. He has assured me that none of his students would behave in such a disrespectfull manner.

MASTERMAN, have you had any luck finding this kid?

Are you sure you take a martial art Jutsow? Or is Mr. Proctor's school just the first one you saw in the phone book?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

MASTERMAN
01-11-2001, 09:17 PM
JWT,

No luck yet. Like most characters of this variety they disappear into the holes they came from...

I have enough students and friends out east to arrange for an education for this guy.

Best Regards in Kenpo,

Dave S ;)

little chain monkey
01-11-2001, 09:56 PM
wake up Masterman....they're coming after you!!!!!

Kong Jianshen
01-12-2001, 12:07 AM
I hate to stick my spoon in now, since it seems we are always talking about the SAME THINGS. How many Kenpo Bite's forums have I seen?! Atleast 4 or 5 in the last couple months.. BUT ANYWAYS lets start the pain.

NUMBER 1- Kenpo is a good art, as good as any! But don't call it something it is not people. Kenpo is not CMA, and whatever CMA flavor it used to have is basically GONE. ANY Okinawan style has 3 times the chinese influence and shows it alot better then Kenpo. Hate to say it! (For now I am talking about American Kenpo) Now this has nothing to do with the effetiveness of the art people, im not blasting it. American Kenpo Karate is just that, AMERICAN. Its roots are Mitose Karate, not Kung Fu! Parker slapped together forms, techniques, stuff he learned from Chow, other stuff from his studies and bam there you have it. Just look at the forms people, its not really Japanese and it sure as hell isnt Chinese. I will explain the rest later. Now, this isn't to say the art isn't effective! I have seen very good Kenpo guys, its always up to the individual. My end comment: American Kenpo is about as chinese as french fries.. Inspired by, maybe, but thats it.

Still I see alot of Kung Fu guys being attacked by the Kenpo guys so here is a little comment. I have a little peice of history for you AKK guys. How bout the FACT that Chow didn't really want to give Ed Parker his blackbelt and that it took a quite a bit of convicing from Mr.Emperado? Theres a little fat for you to chew on.

NUMBER 2- ON Professor Chow.. With all due respect, he was the Thunderbolt and an excellent martial artist. BUT his father was a shaolin monk? Yes and mine was the Prince of Egypt.. PLEASE! His own close relatives CAME OUT AND STATED that his father did NOT have any previous Kung Fu knowledge and was certainly not a Shaolin Monk. They said that Chow had studied from Mitose and then delved into the island's other arts available to him. But his pops wasn't a monk people! How many shaolin monks sit around China going.. "Hmm to hell with Kung Fu and my religion.. Hawaii and family life HERE I COME!!" I don't degrade any art, but I don't appreciate being spoon fed crap either :mad: So don't try to tell me otherwise.

You can say what you want, I have heard these things from very viable sources.

Shaolin Kempo? Shorinji Kempo(they are about as close to Shaolin Monks as you will get outside of China) is the only art that could REALLY be called Shaolin Kempo. If your not from that lineage its sure as hell isnt Shaolin, and I suggest asking some questions. Why? Because the Shaolin consist of Northern China Temple, Fukien, etc etc we all know this. KEMPO IS A JAPANESE WORD! If its Shaolin Chuan Fa, then there you go, its Chinese. What style of Chuan Fa is it? Who knows, there are hundreds, atleast you can be sure its Chinese. There was an article in BB Mag about a Shaolin Kempo guy. The second I saw the words I sighed.. He however did have training in Black Tiger and China Na so he was atleast somewhat viable. Nonethless, the applications I saw were once again VERY karate-like. He also stated in there that he went to the Shaolin Temple in China and that the monks were "very pleased with his combat applications" or something. Boy, I would sure love to explore all thier incredibly useful WUSHU applications! Come on people... By the way, if someone wants to change my mind by saying that thier kid has a blackbelt in Shaolin Kempo and its great, please don't bother. (I read it in one of the posts) Your kid has a blackbelt in Kempo, so what? There are many blackbelts in the world and I am going to say that 70% of them don't deserve it. As for your kid, he might be great and thats fine. Just don't try to use that as an arguement! I don't see any Honda Firebirds driving around, do you? Yet there is SHAOLIN KEMPO.

Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kempo is Chow Kempo. Like I said, about as Shaolin as I am Egyptian Royality.

Lets take a look at Chinese Kara Ho Kempo, another Chow related art. Can anyone tell me with a straight face this is any more then Karate with maybe different terms? (most are still Japanese terms anyways) Sorry guys, the only thing "Chinese" about this art is the name.

I hate to be so critical because who really cares if its Chinese, Russian, or African? As long as it WORKS; its fine. But you wouldn't call Kali a Polish Martial Art would you? So lets atleast get the records STRAIGHT.

In the end I saw a very agreeable post:

"This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board, Kempo has NO relation within 600 - 800 years to chinese arts, Kempo is a JAPANESE art that was influenced prior to 1500 by chinese arts."

Thank you, thank you very much. I guess I didn't ingest any strange mushrooms today by mistake, after all.

Like I said before I don't degrade any art. I am sure there are low quality Kempo/Kenpo schools out there like in ANY ART. They all have the potential to shine.

Phew I am done.

"When you serpate the truth from the false, you serperate the men from the boys."

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

rogue
01-12-2001, 12:18 AM
French fries are Chinese? :confused:

Tigerstyle
01-12-2001, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board, Kempo has NO relation within 600 - 800 years to chinese arts, Kempo is a JAPANESE art that was influenced prior to 1500 by chinese arts.[/quote]I read a few posts cheering about this quote. Does that mean that non-Chinese stylists are not welcome here? Are some people so stubborn that they feel they can't learn anything from a non-KF style? Ridiculous. I hope most of the people on this forum don't want to hang out in a segregated, prejudiced forum. I certainly don't

Kong Jianshen
01-12-2001, 01:14 AM
You know what I meant :D I should have worded the sentence a little better. Rouge, the world would be a much better place without your backwards sarcasm! ;)

Tigerstlye: I like the quote because of it's information. I don't care if TKD, Jujitsu, Hap ki Do, Kung Fu, San Soo, Flaming Monking, I used to be Daga, stylists post here. Its all good! Every MA has something to offer. I don't recall anywhere in my post stating that Kenpo and other Non CMA arts should go back home to a Karate board. Funny, I have posted MANY times about Non CMA arts, in questions, answers, every side of the coin. It sounds like your looking for someone to blast, your looking in the wrong direction!

When I go to sleep I am haunted by images of Karate guys posting in CMA boards and Kung Fu guys posting on JMA boards.. and I wake up screaming! Where did we go wrong?!

Hey, I can use a little backwards sarcasm too. :p

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

Tigerstyle
01-12-2001, 02:32 AM
It was not my intent to blast any specific person, just the general attitude that the quote in question MAY imply. I see clearly from your post(s) that you are not looking to bash any style, you are just against the spreading of misinformation. I agree with that feeling. I should have been clear in stating that I was only commenting on the quote.

I feel that saying, "Kempo has NO relation within 600 - 800 years to chinese arts, Kempo is a JAPANESE art that was influenced prior to 1500 by chinese arts." gets the point across just fine. The line I have beef with is, "This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board, Kempo has NO relation..."

or even (more general):
"This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board, (Insert Non-KF Style Here) has NO relation yadda yadda...Why do they post here?"

I have read variations of this line a few times in the past on previous posts (usually in resonse to something some troll/BJJ dude said :) ). I know it doesn't always mean the person who said it wants all non-KF people to leave, and I also know that the same line probably gets used on a Shotokan or Kenpo forum (against non-Shotokan/non-Kenpo posters). I just wanted to say that when I read it, I feel it sends out a biased attitude. Almost as if that the person wants those with different views or beliefs to not post anything that he/she may not agree with.

Kong, you feel strongly against the spreading of false info. I feel just as strongly against biased/closed-minded feelings. I am sorry if you read my post as an attack against you.

BUT: I do feel you are pretty outspoken for a "Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts" ;) j/k.

Kong Jianshen
01-12-2001, 03:35 AM
Tigerstyle I've said it once, i'll say it again, you the man! :D

I am glad on this board, someone still has a voice of maturity and integrity. Im also glad someone is with me against the spread of misinformation. In your defense I was actually thinking I probally should have cut the "This is a CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS discussion board" part because it did kinda sound like it was saying "non CMA artists, post elsewhere." So I agree with you wholly on that. I don't think the orginal poster meant that tho, so I left it in. Boy, his quote sure has become famous :D

By the way, thanks to you, I found that Karate Movie we were talking about a couple weeks back. Remember? About the guy fighting in the Jail cell? Well I simply had to own it! I am now the proud owner of Sonny Chiba's the Streetfighter! :)
I am still shocked Ratnose bit the dust.. hehe

Heres some new movie info by the way if anyone liked the old Conan flicks. (You KNOW I sure did, own both those babies even tho the second one sucked :) Anyway, they are soon going to start filming the 3rd Conan the Barbarian movie. Arnold will be in it, it hasn't been said tho whether he will play Conan or not. I am literally going to do everything possible to be the first person in line for this one. I am a Conan freak, Crom! I heard its going to be viscous, realstic, bloody and much like the book. Those Lord of the Ring movies look promising too. Well im done.

Have a good night everyone.

"Son, trust no one. Harden your body. Become a number one man! And never let anyone beat you!"
--Streetfighter

ps: Here is some martial arts trvia. It just so happens the brutal Dog Brothers got thier name when one of the founders was reading a Conan Comic book and heard Conan say "Come on you Dog Brothers!"

Anything inspired by Conan is going to have some decent measure of violence :D

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

MASTERMAN
01-12-2001, 03:43 AM
Kong and others,

It is sad that you are frustrated with Kenpo folk.

First of all, you do me a dishonor. You assume I am Ameriacan Kenpo stylist. I am not I am a Traditional Kenpo stylist. I am different from American Kenpo. I am a War Art with training in healing and honor.

My roots go back over 800 years in Japan and Okinawa. Before then to Shaolin - Chuan Fa.

Is this so hard to believe. We were and are known as a War Art. What you see sometimes is a pale version of what my Art is.

Don't be so quick to judge. Are you Really learning Original Kung Fu or a variation.

As far as Chow ( student of Mitose) is concerned he never taught sets or forms. Neither did James Mitose. Important fact they were known for self applications that were to the point and real!!!

Come workout with me and experience what REAL Traditional Kenpo is about... and our link with China.

You Have The Power,

Dave S ;)

rogue
01-12-2001, 06:20 AM
Kong, you mean you were just kidding about being the Prince of Egypt? :eek:

HuangKaiVun
01-12-2001, 01:47 PM
Traditional kempo is a great art, and so is American kempo.

I fail to see why they or their practitioners wouldn't be welcome at a CMA forum, as CMAs have been learning from other arts for as long as they've been around.

yamato_damashii
01-12-2001, 02:37 PM
test

Jason C. Diederich

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/</A>

jutsow
03-21-2001, 11:36 PM
i thought i could liven things up a little bit

Rei
03-22-2001, 02:09 AM
dontu dare bash wushu dude its as good as any other kungfu if u do the real stuff. sure competition wushu is useless but the real one can kick any ass just like wing chun, choy lee fut, hung gar, N praying mantis or any other kungfu so get it straight idiot

*To conquer others, you must first conquer yourself*

jutsow
03-22-2001, 05:55 AM
ahhh yeesss... it feels so good to be so bad.

kenpo/kempo sucks
always has
always will
but hey,.. at least its not wing chun


or,... wushu???
[you know what i mean by wushu]

[This message was edited by jutsow on 03-22-01 at 08:03 PM.]

Ironpig
03-22-2001, 07:02 AM
my quote was taken out of conext...but it stands on its own.

I welcome open discourse with anyone, whatever the art. I would also like to get the correct, (or closest) real history of an art. It does the art a great disservice to "liven" it up with added history. The Japanese, (just like the koreans), have a great and long history of practice. In truth: Kung Fu just means work over time or accomplishment. Anyone can have it.

Please re read the whole post and follow ups on the board.

Placing an art in context is different than trying to get it "kicked off". I did not mean for the artists to get off, just the troll.

Again: I did not mean to offend with my impassioned quotes. I do have strong feelings on the issue of truth in practice.

I miss the good days with Kempo, but I am building an understanding of the differences in the practice of a Chinese art and a Japanese art. I think that I will come out well rounded and more tolerant as time goes on.

just a few pennies from a pig.....

IronPig

Mr. Nemo
03-22-2001, 07:17 AM
Who the hell dragged this thread up again?

Ironpig
03-22-2001, 07:18 AM
Sorry Nemo

I replied...again

LOL

Just a sucker for the subject

just a few pennies from a pig.....

IronPig