why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?

[Hendrik]

why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?


The following southern TCMA have the center line theory, kiu sau, using both hand simulaneously, YJKYM.....etc. or even look a like shape or technics.

So, Why is WCK WCK?
Care to share?




White Crane of Fujian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ECYd9sVj5g

Hung Gar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shh54_AkWZ8

Southern mantis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g

Snake style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wq9KwBvQQ

Bak Mei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7gPapVUr0&feature=related

Dragon style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY

[t_niehoff]

Wait. What? Is this deja vu? I thought I already answered this. Was that a dream? Am I a butterfly dreaming I am on KFO or am I on KFO dreaming I am a butterfly?

[JPinAZ]

aha, maybe he didn't want his boss to find out he spends all day at work dreaming on kfo forums ;)

[Hendrik]

Wait. What? Is this deja vu? I thought I already answered this. Was that a dream? Am I a butterfly dreaming I am on KFO or am I on KFO dreaming I am a butterfly?


Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

[kung fu fighter]

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.

Hi Hendrik,

Can you give a definition of what you mean by "snake slide worm moves"?

Also does WCK use this type of power generation exactly like in Emei 12 Zhuang, or is it fused in with the other methods of WCK power generation to create a hybrid type of power generation?

[Hendrik]

Can you give a definition of what you mean by "snake slide worm moves"?


That is Emei 12 zhuang's power generation signature. You could search in this forum or Jim Roselando's article to read about it.




Also does WCK use this type of power generation exactly like in Emei 12 Zhuang, or is it fused in with the other methods of WCK power generation to create a hybrid type of power generation?


the creator merge the White Crane's Snap, Emei's snake slide, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation to create SLT. It is a hybrid, however, when eliminate other element to the basic form the Exactly in Emei or Snap of White Crane will shown.


This also tell the story why Wing Chun's SLT is not Hung Gar's Iron Wire or Set from other style. That is because the goal of SLT set training is to evolve and transform one to become a certain type of power generator which support the application strategy of WCK.

SLT It is not to learn or drill that Kiu Sau or Technics only. It is the unique power generator conditioning and development which is the goal. The idea is at last, one discard any fix type of technics and turn into Just flow as it comes and goes....etc.

Hung Gar's Iron wire is cultivating a very different type of power generation. So does White Crane's sanchin. different type of power generation suit only to different type of structure, application strategy, and all have their strength and weakness. and One could always do a search on the Signature IE White Crane is famous for its Inch power join force for past 300 years. Emei more then 300 years.... so one could really see where is the element likely to from and verify with the old writing to confirm is it really from the source.
We are talking the traceable 300 years or more signature in TCMA here. So, if one claim it is from shao lin, then ask, which shao lin, where shao lin, and what lineage, all of these things can be traced.

If you look at Gary Lam's Youtube, Robert Chu's DVD, Hawkin's youtube, Sung Nung's Youtube, Ken Chung. or Senior Fung from the KooLo family...all the WCK old timers.... see for yourself, you will identify that "Snap, continuous slide, and bounce. " WCK signature.

They might done it in their own way but always the signature of WCK power generation is there. and certainly there also are WCK application strategy signature which comes with the power generation.


I am serious when I said look at the clip of wooden dummy to see can one keep close. if not it is a different type of power generation. IE, one can use Hung Gar type power generation but their body will automatically adjust differently even if they do the same woodern dummy routine. one can use CLF type or White Crane type power generation but then again it will be different.

So, power generation is the dynamic structure. all good TCMA has body structure but one needs to be able to read what is the dynamic structure. and from there one knows how to play with them.


However, if one do WCK's set and drill but dont use the WCK power generation/ application strategy but Hung Gar's dynamic structure. then that is no different then doing Hung Gar. it is not WCK.

further more, WCK doesnt talk about Kiu Sau...etc because Kiu Sau is a transition, when the power generation or dynamic structure is completely evolve it is that flow WCK aim's for.


Just some thoughts, dont take my words but go out and observe to see for yourself.

[kung fu fighter]

That is Emei 12 zhuang's power generation signature. You could search in this forum or Jim Roselando's article to read about it.



Hi Hendrik,



I am familar with the White Crane's Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei's snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn't able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei's snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei's snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi's reeling silk?

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,



I am familar with the White Crane's Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei's snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn't able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei's snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei's snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi's reeling silk?




Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Is tai chi reeling silk ? Get a Taiji guy to do WCK's woodern dummy and see for yourself is it the same type of power signature?

[Hendrik]

Enough information shared, I leave the rest to you all WC High Hand who is lurking. Dont make me tell all the story, that is political incorrect isnt it?

[Eric_H]

Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Hendrik,

Again you prove that you are not here for a genuine conversation, KFF is asking legitimate questions about the lineage you CLAIM to be a representative of and your answer is "go find a sifu."



Our feelings were about the same when it comes to researching and reporting on Wing Chun and the many branches and flowers that make up our beautiful system: that people who don’t always know a lot seem to be the ones that speak the most, or make the most noise online. Sifu Ku mentioned to me about one particular person by name in the US that has been making a lot of noise and presenting himself as an expert on the Cho Ga lineage but really don’t know all that much about the lineage itself. They presented the VTM with an historic book on their history, lineage, and theory on the system.


You can't answer, because as the Cho Ga family says, you're not qualified to.

RB93SAAT was right, this is just more of your "mental masterbation" all across this forum. You wanna discuss, actually discuss. Otherwise its just a pathetic cry for people to pay attention to you which you apparently get off on. Your behavior is disgusting.

I'll say it again: Get Help, seriously.

[Hendrik]

You can't answer, because as the Cho Ga family says, you're not qualified to.



Traceable evidence and solid signature of WCK is the bottom line.
If you have that shows us.
If not then that is just a he says she says HIS-TORY for Gossip news paper isnt it?

Hope that you could do better then all the Gossip and twisting words and no "beef" wasting of time post.

[kung fu fighter]

Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Ok Hendrik, I will go baisi :) I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol, perhaps they do it and is something that's developed naturally through the coarse of WCK training, but it was never spoken of specificly. And that was the reason i was asking, because you are the only person that I ever heard use this term.

Thanks for the chat

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


Well, that sort of thing makes me not want to post since you will just delete the thread if you don't like how it is going.



There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


I don't agree with you there. WCK is WCK. As long as you are using WCK movement, as described in the classical forms/exercises, you are "practicing" WCK.



And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?


That is a "wrong" question. And wrong questions won't lead you to meaningful answers.

The question isn't "why WCK is WCK?" but "what is the WCK curriculum trying to teach you?" In other words, "what is it you are trying to do?" Because if you don't know what it is you are trying to do, you can't develop skill doing it.



One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


I agree with your statement but not with your rationale for the statement.



There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


Again, that is a wrong question.



First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


I don't care how other arts do things or generate power. I don't know much about them, and I don't know if you do either. I am concerned with WCK, not other arts. And I look at WCK from a functional perspective (why and how things fit together to do what I want to do).

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.



Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.

[Eric_H]

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.

The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.



Agreed +1



I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol,


That's because Yik Kam imported it from O-mei, it's NOT native to WC. Wong Wa bo WC doesn't have it, and doesn't need it because Wong Wa Bo finished his WC training. Yik Kam didn't and created the mixed up Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system, end of story.

[Hendrik]

I don't care how other arts do things or generate power. I don't know much about them, and I don't know if you do either. I am concerned with WCK, not other arts. And I look at WCK from a functional perspective (why and how things fit together to do what I want to do).

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.



The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.


You sure dont have to know the details of power signature...power generation.....etc. That is because because your sifu Robert has take care of it and you just use what Robert teaches you. That is totally OK to care only about function and use something without know where it is comes from and ...etc. No one needs to know all the engine to drive a car.


However, for those who like to look deeper they need to know things in details to see what work and what doesnt work; even as simple as to control the opponent while striking, not every power generation and application strategy contribute to the same result.

Again, your Sifu Robert has taken care of the strategy part and power generation part for his CSL WCK, so the deeper and advance level is always there whether one aware of it or not.

[Hendrik]

Ok Hendrik, I will go baisi :) I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol,


perhaps they do it and is something that's developed naturally through the coarse of WCK training, but it was never spoken of specificly. And that was the reason i was asking, because you are the only person that I ever heard use this term.

Thanks for the chat



You certainly have not read Jim Roselando's article on Emei and WCK conncetion.,,,

One doesnt have to know how to design a Car in order to drive one. So, if you train with legitimate old timer WCner as I list above, you will get their version of WCK with or without the Emei snake....name mention. and even them doesnt have to know where those signature is come from.

However, if one shows the art to TCMA pro expert in China, they will recognized the signature. The snap of White Crane and the snake slide worm move of Emei is well known for those people today.

[shawchemical]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

MAte, I think you need to lay of the acid for a little while.

[Firehawk4]

Is there away to see if the Emie Worm Slide is still in the Yunan and Omei Mountain areas is it in other Emie Kung Fu styles ?Is there any Emie Snake styles that could have it Helen Liang does a Emie Snake style I wonder what kind of concepts and principles she has . I know there is that GrandMaster of That Emie Chi Gung Worm Slide , but would not it be in other Emie Kung Fu Systems ? The Fujian White Crane seems to be one of the parent arts of Wing Chun The Fan Chi Niang and Yim Wing Chun Stories are to similar for them not to be talking about the same people so how and when did the Fujian White Crane and this Emie Snake System get mixed togethor or a Snake System ?

[Hendrik]

Is there away to see if the Emie Worm Slide is still in the Yunan and Omei Mountain areas is it in other Emie Kung Fu styles ?Is there any Emie Snake styles that could have it Helen Liang does a Emie Snake style I wonder what kind of concepts and principles she has . I know there is that GrandMaster of That Emie Chi Gung Worm Slide , but would not it be in other Emie Kung Fu Systems ? The Fujian White Crane seems to be one of the parent arts of Wing Chun The Fan Chi Niang and Yim Wing Chun Stories are to similar for them not to be talking about the same people so how and when did the Fujian White Crane and this Emie Snake System get mixed togethor or a Snake System ?



Try this article. it might help.

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/




look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Started 4.10 that is the Siu letter set of Emei 12 Zhuang which is believed to be the influence of the naming of SLT or Siu Lien Tau.


the way how Russell handle the arm, hand, and finger is the Snake slide worm move way.
Look at the technics and compare them with the SLT, CK, BJ.... technics.

Emei 12 zhuang is also famous for its very adaptive compact technics, meaning a slight small adaptive changes move makes a different technics.

small means compact and details. meaning a seems to be continuous technics might have a few technics hidden within it. So it is very adaptive to response to changes.


It is much compact then White Crane and other art. and in order to have this compactness a different dynamic structure is used. Thus, the snake slide worm moves way is needed. and also due to this "small" capability, it means Jin or power can be generated in short distance IE Inch power or Short power as WCK trade mark Tui Keng.

One certainly can compare the above clip with the below Iron Wire clip and see the different effect interm of body handling, power type, and compactness due to different power generation or dynamic structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

Russell's set was verified by the same Grandmaster of Emei as in Jim's article above.


And if you compare with the clip below from the old old timer WCner of different WCK family look for yourself what happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E&feature=related

[Dave McKinnon]

Hendrick

What you posted was SICK! And by that you really, for the first time, posted something that was clear and concise and made sense.

I am sorry others aren't getting it but what the hell.

What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave

[theo]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

I'm not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the "components" of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application. Hendrik has addressed a bit of the power generation here. And the signatures are what differentiate WCK from the other styles shown above. For example, you don't see the Snake in White Crane, but both are apparent in WCK. I would venture to say that the training then, which must have an effect on the power generation, must also be different or distinctive. WCK training starts with SLT. I'm not sure of the method of the other styles, but WCK's SLT must also be different to support the different power generation.

[Hendrik]

What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave

Dave,

Yup. you are on the right track.

Yes, WCK is based on the basic such as spit, swallow, sink, float..... center line....ect however it has its uniqueness and that uniqueness make is WCK.

It doesnt need to formulate things as I am because there are many ways to look at things. But WCK has to have uniqueness. and that uniqueness is the strenght. Also every WCK will have their own uniqueness, that is the reason they are a different lineage.



In the ancient china way, every art has a Tee ("body" of the art, structure, power generation...ect) and Yoong ( Application/function of the art, strategy of application, function..).

Both of them support each other. Here we are investigation the DNA or Signature of Tee, and certainly there is also DNA or Signature of the Yoong which we didnt look into it yet ( Ei. Sure WCK attack center line, but how? what is the unique way compare with the White Crane of Fujian mother art?)

You got to thank your sifu Robert on present you a comprehensive and balance art with its own uniqueness.

[Hendrik]

Yup, there is a reason for everything.


The unique power generation is called for to support the unique application strategy.

That Tee or ""body" of the art and Yoong the application of the art needs to be present and echo each other. That is the Ancient Chinese way of designing/ creating an art.

Also, the Ancient Chinese is using System Thinking type of thinking model which shows the inter relationship between each components of the system and also the dynamics of the system. it is not the western analytical thinking type of thinking patent. And one needs to use system thinking to describe the Ancient Chinese art to unlock what it is.

lots of people make the mistake of appliying the modern Western Analytical only thinking model to describe WCK. Thus, that will cause incompleteness and un able to get deep into the art. IE. to only focus on a single elements, such as Function.
For the Ancient Chinese, Function/ application without the Body of the art doesnt exist. One must has the Body to support the application and interm the application is to show the usefulness of the Body.

We are invesigating to understand what an Ancient Chinese Art is using the Ancient Chinese thinking model. We are not intepreting the art the way as we like to because that is meaningless but all kind of individual ego driven.

Why is power generation is important? because it shows one what is capability of the boundary or the limitation of the art beside describe what body of the art is. That is to identify the art.


One doesnt have to see the art the way I present, however, the Tee and Yoong must be clearly describe within their view.


BTW, if one doesnt know the uniqueness of the art, then the training such as doing SLT is a waste.

See, SLT cannot and must not be perform like a Taiji or like a karate or Hung Gar or southern TCMA set. if one do it that way it is not going to yeild result needed to support one's real life application.


I'm not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the "components" of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application.

[theo]

Try this article. it might help.

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/




look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Started 4.10 that is the Siu letter set of Emei 12 Zhuang which is believed to be the influence of the naming of SLT or Siu Lien Tau.


the way how Russell handle the arm, hand, and finger is the Snake slide worm move way.
Look at the technics and compare them with the SLT, CK, BJ.... technics.

Emei 12 zhuang is also famous for its very adaptive compact technics, meaning a slight small adaptive changes move makes a different technics.

small means compact and details. meaning a seems to be continuous technics might have a few technics hidden within it. So it is very adaptive to response to changes.


It is much compact then White Crane and other art. and in order to have this compactness a different dynamic structure is used. Thus, the snake slide worm moves way is needed. and also due to this "small" capability, it means Jin or power can be generated in short distance IE Inch power or Short power as WCK trade mark Tui Keng.

One certainly can compare the above clip with the below Iron Wire clip and see the different effect interm of body handling, power type, and compactness due to different power generation or dynamic structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

Russell's set was verified by the same Grandmaster of Emei as in Jim's article above.


And if you compare with the clip below from the old old timer WCner of different WCK family look for yourself what happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E&feature=related

The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves. What I mean by that is I don't see it as obvious as it's being demonstrated above. Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?

[Hendrik]

The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves.

What I mean by that is I don't see it as obvious as it's being demonstrated above.

Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?


Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntCGIoMvM&feature=related


Crane is in general perform in an acute angle or snap motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch... etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent's arm....

IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use "brute force" and tense one's muscle dead hard to make it as there is power, similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT; the snake will surface automatically. Look at the above Russell's clip on how he did the set.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action.

The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand /body medirian's Qi flow accord to the medirians everytime one practice SLT, instead of Tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension method of Hung Gar Iron Wire.
So, in this perspective, SLT's design belongs to the internal or "TaiJi " class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become "harder" and not as "compact in details."

With the post 1920 introduction of Kiu Sau concept in many lineages as in other Southern TCMA the Snake further fade away due to the "Tracking and continuous" action become a "discrete" action. and thus the capability of Short/inch soft (yao) Jin is vanishing due to the discrete action doesnt support the Short Jin cultivation.

Today, A good reference on what WCK more closely look like is the Koo Lo Fung family type perform by their senior.

[theo]

Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntCGIoMvM&feature=related


Crane is in general perform in an acute or snap angle motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch... etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent's arm....

Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families. It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us...For example, I've heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn't seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience. In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the "worm" moves in the "sam bai fut" section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there!

[theo]

Hope this explain what you ask.


IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use "brute force" and tense one's muscle dead hard to make it there is power similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT the snake will show.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action. The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand's /body medirian's Qi flow accord to the medirians instead of Tensing and relaxing style of Hung Gar Iron Wire. So, in this perspective, SLT is design close to the TaiJi class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become "harder" and not as "compact in details."

I have to agree, as I have myself been using tense structure in the beginning (maybe most of us do? :p) but recently have begun to notice more of the natural automatic default that you mentioned...it's interesting why the Snake is fading out, not implying who has or doesn't have it. To me, that aspect seems to require a different mindset, one where you'd have to be more sensitive to the energy you feel...Just that from what I've observed, I did not encounter the type of "adaptive" flow that would occur but more of "hard" energy being exchanged.

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families.

It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us...

For example, I've heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn't seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience.

In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the "worm" moves in the "sam bai fut" section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there!


1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today's general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness. if one face a Hung Gar iron hand bridge then there will be a crush of power ... as soon as one knows it that is fine.

My thesis here is not to say what is right or wrong but what are the components and uniqueness of WCK , you can formulate your own WCK as you like it, it is perfectly ok for me.

[theo]

1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today's general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness.

Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn't make sense to repeat it a million times to know...

[Hendrik]

Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn't make sense to repeat it a million times to know...


yes, thus, it said " the whole body must not using brute force" otherwise one doesnt get the result.

See, there are two ways of how to cultivate power in general. By tensing and relaxing. or by guiding the flow to promote strength. and SLT IMHO is design as the second type.

So using tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension will not produce the same power result as the guiding the flow.

However, guiding the flow is not that easy to truly practice because it needs to relax every part of the body and it takes time to see result ; compare with if you tense your arm you feel POWER.

So, as in the internal art practice, when you dont feel power you actually has power when you feel power you are actually tense up a certain area of your body and the power is not flowing out....etc.

That is the reasons behind all of these ancient training method and as how different people like to do with their WCK that is up to them and I respect it all.;

[theo]

My thesis here is not to say what is right or wrong but what are the components and uniqueness of WCK , you can formulate your own WCK as you like it, it is perfectly ok for me.

Yes, there's no one way to express it, but at the same time, whatever one's WCK is, it should still have the WCK signatures to be WCK.

[theo]

yes, thus, it said " the whole body must not using brute force" otherwise one doesnt get the result.

See, there are two ways of how to cultivate power in general. By tensing and relaxing. or by guiding the flow to promote strength. and SLT IMHO is design as the second type.

So using tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension will not produce the same power result as the guiding the flow.

However, guiding the flow is not that easy to truly practice because it needs to relax every part of the body and it takes time to see result ; compare with if you tense your arm you feel POWER.

So, as in the internal art practice, when you dont feel power you actually has power when you feel power you are actually tense up a certain area of your body and the power is not flowing out....etc.

That is the reasons behind all of these ancient training method and as how different people like to do with their WCK that is up to them and I respect it all.;

You know, at some point, we all have heard how "soft" WCK should be. That's a whole other kettle of fish to pinpoint "soft" because it can mean different things to different people...

By "guiding the flow" you mean the qi?

[Hendrik]

You know, at some point, we all have heard how "soft" WCK should be. That's a whole other kettle of fish to pinpoint "soft" because it can mean different things to different people...

By "guiding the flow" you mean the qi?



"soft" sure can mean different things to different people, if one likes to take it out of context and doing all kind of intepretation.

However, it is a Chinese martial art, so if one follow the Ancient Chinese definition
it is as simple as

"loose and whole in physical, nature in breathing, and a quiet mind. "

Then, things are very clearly define and not up for intepretation.



Also, if one has the Kuen Kuit one can further confirm it.

Such as

全身不可着力量。The whole body must not stick to any "excessive" force
一任自然顺气脉, spontaneously , nature-ly , accord to the flow of the medirians
细味小字妙诀方。carefully tasting the "details : is the wonderful instruction ( to cultivate the art)


Things are very clearly define.


Yup. the SLT is practiced coordinate the Qi, breathing, and physical movement flow. as it said in the kuen kuit above.



Bottom line, wrong direction will arrive at a wrong place. So, it is problematic when free thinking without Ancient Chinese back ground thinking everything is correct that cause problem.

[Hendrik]

With the crane and snake signature, one could look into different lineages of WCK and see for oneself if the signature is truely embeded there disregards of how the story often was told.


look at this Chan Wa Weng Chun Kuen SL clip starting 8.55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo



We know Crane is more obvious to be seen in SLT/SNT ...etc now
keep compare different lineages' set practice with the Emei set above which Russell is practiced see for yourself, if Snake slide signature actually is hidden within the SLT/ SNT/SL set?

look at the wrist, some times snap, some times continouos slide and flow and twist....etc.


In the clip, noticed that at the end section start 10.44 the set turn into a moslty White Crane type of art. Which lead to a question of who evolve this section of the art? how come the snake is fading? when and why this happen?







So, Snake slide and crane snap are two key elements of the core of WCK-- the SLT disregards of many different lineages. That is the uniqueness.


As we know we can trace in Chinese official history the existance of White Crane of Fujian since mid 1600. Emei 12 Zhuang (snake type) since 1300 ( one can go to the Beijing museum to check out the lotus cannon of Emei 12 Zhuang.) These two type of arts are identify able.

[Eric_H]

The "information" in this thread is a joke.

Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don't have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.

These are from the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system's white crane and O-mei influence, not having to do with wing chun. If Yik Kam had finished his WC, he would use the terms like the rest of the lineages do, without the need for borrowing from other CMA.

As for all this snake slidey nonsense, you can generate power that way for sure, but it's nothing to do with WC. I also don't think white crane is a "mother art" to WCK, could it have been an influence? sure. If Hendrik can point me out where white crane birthed Wong Wa Bo's WC I'd be happy to entertain the idea. Till then, he's just talking an MMA of CMA.

I'm sure this post will get the thread deleted again as Hendrik only wants to hear from people who agree with and suck up to him :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Sure the information in this thread is a joke because lots of people believe in HIS-STORY will start crying.

From Fung Family of Ko Loo to Pao fa Lien to Chan Wah, across the TRACE able older Wing Chun Kuen lineage all has the snake and crane signature. So what is the probability of the same elements appear again and again in different unrelated WCK lineages is infact the core elements?



When the tool of analysis clearly presented to be public, HIS-STORY fall a part like a land slide isnt it?



The "information" in this thread is a joke.

[t_niehoff]

The "information" in this thread is a joke.

Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don't have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.


The only joke is your WCK education.

Those (chum (sink), fou (rise), tun (swallow), tou (spit)) are the four torso methods found in the SNT, and the basis of WCK body power.



These are from the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system's white crane and O-mei influence, not having to do with wing chun. If Yik Kam had finished his WC, he would use the terms like the rest of the lineages do, without the need for borrowing from other CMA.


They are a part of all LEGITIMATE WCK lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Pan Nam, etc. and as you pointed out yourself, is the basis for all southern fist (and WCK is a southern fist).



As for all this snake slidey nonsense, you can generate power that way for sure, but it's nothing to do with WC. I also don't think white crane is a "mother art" to WCK, could it have been an influence? sure. If Hendrik can point me out where white crane birthed Wong Wa Bo's WC I'd be happy to entertain the idea. Till then, he's just talking an MMA of CMA.

I'm sure this post will get the thread deleted again as Hendrik only wants to hear from people who agree with and suck up to him :rolleyes:

So a guy who doesn't even know that chum, fou, tun, tao is a basic element of WCK has his own theory on the origins of WCK that doesn't agree with Hendriks. Well, stop the presses. This is earth-shattering. We had all better stop and completely rethink things because some clueless guy doesn't agree.

[Hendrik]

Next we will to go visit the Uniqueness in WCK's application strategy.

See how the snake and crane or the WCK Slide, Snap, bounce power generation support the application strategy.

and how WCK doesnt go for Center Line similar to other Southern TCMA and;
where is this "capturing Center line but not brute force" strategy is from?





We know, Center line concept is White Crane of Fujian's uniqueness.


Let's take a look at Sifu Gary Lam's the WCk old timer clip and see if he goes brute force to do face on center line attack.. or he slide and passed....elegantly handle the incoming force ?
(PS. sifu Gary, thanks and appreciate for your sharing in youtube.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

see if he trying to capture or attack center line in a brute force and face on like some other Namkuen ? or he slide passed....elegantly without fighting force against force?


it just happen that what Sifu Gary does also exist in the Emei 12 Zhuang's application strategy kuit as the following.

勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.




So again, IMHO,

when one fuse the White Crane's Center line concept with the Emei's strategy , one sees that type of signature in the WCK applications. in fact, that is Comes accept goes return....etc.


Check it out for yourself on if you could see the same kind of uniqueness in other Southern TCMA?

You dont have to believe me, check it out for yourself, take a look at how Hung gar does, White Crane san chin attack to the center line does.....etc. See for yourself if that WCK uniqueness is in fact WCK's signature.

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu's DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.

[Hendrik]

The following is Emei 12 Zhuang's application philosophy


勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the untame bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

我常自在静, I am remain within the silence
大开诱来攻, open up to seduce the incoming attack
利我居主位, This way I have an advantage of being the lead of the situation.




When one fusing this philosophy and the White Crane Center line concept. What do one get? IMHO, comes accept goes return, let go and trust forward, using silence to lead action with always targeted the opponent center line.

If that is not WCK what is WCK? find another TCMA style which do this and see if you could find it.


Furthermore, one now could examine how is the Snap, Slide, bounce power generation support this type of application strategy.

If you notice on Gary's video on how close he is to the opponent once let passed in? Remember what I said about if wrong type of power generation will not get one closely stick with the woodern dummy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

also check out the slide, snap, bounce here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A&feature=related



So, in conclusion, IMHO, from my view, there is a reason and signature of Why WCK is WCK. it is not everything is WCK. General Southern TCMA practice can not be WCK. One can practice CLF and doing the WCK woodern dummy set but unless he generate the WCK power and using WCK strategy he is not doing WCK.....etc.

I am done here let you people have the fun.

[Violent Designs]

Where can I find some footage for the "pure" Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won't interrupt your WCK discussion. :)

[Hendrik]

Where can I find some footage for the "pure" Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won't interrupt your WCK discussion. :)


I cant, that is the reason Russell and JIm Rosenlado go visit the Gate keeper of Emei 12 Zhuang to learn the subject first hand with the details. Russell has been doing Yik Kam SLT for 20 years and JIm learn the Yik Kam power generation etc for years.

[RB93SAAT]

Where can I find some footage for the "pure" Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won't interrupt your WCK discussion. :)

was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.

[t_niehoff]

was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6FgOw9iDzk

[Violent Designs]

was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.

The fukc is your problem, I am not in WCK, I merely asked a question because I was curious about Emei Snake style history and information.

Don't drag me into this.

Look at who you're talking to before screaming at them.

[Eric_H]

The only joke is your WCK education.

Those (chum (sink), fou (rise), tun (swallow), tou (spit)) are the four torso methods found in the SNT, and the basis of WCK body power.

They are a part of all LEGITIMATE WCK lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Pan Nam, etc. and as you pointed out yourself, is the basis for all southern fist (and WCK is a southern fist).

So a guy who doesn't even know that chum, fou, tun, tao is a basic element of WCK has his own theory on the origins of WCK that doesn't agree with Hendriks. Well, stop the presses. This is earth-shattering. We had all better stop and completely rethink things because some clueless guy doesn't agree.

You're not very good at reading are you?

I acknowledge that yes, various WCK motions can be describe in those terms but they are not native to WCK. There has been argument that Yuen Kay San studied some Weng Chun or other elements which may be where he got them. Looking at his brother's lineage in Vietnam which has a hodgepodge of a ton of different CMA I'd be inclined to agree that's the source.

In LEGITIMATE WCK we use "Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut sau chi chung" not "Tun/tou."

What a surprise, someone who doesn't even know the fist maxims of Wing Chun agrees with Hendrik. Good thing those presses are already stopped.

If Yik Kam Siu Lein Tao contained more Wing Chun and less O-mei and White Crane, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Then again, Yik Kam never called his system Wing Chun so I guess it's a moot point to discuss it as such.

[RB93SAAT]

If Yik Kam Siu Lein Tao contained more Wing Chun and less O-mei and White Crane, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Then again, Yik Kam never called his system Wing Chun so I guess it's a moot point to discuss it as such.

o-mei is another style of tcma which got nothing to do with wing chun. wong wah bo wing chun existed long before thiis so-called yik kam little drilling.


Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don't have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.

i agree with you 100%. most wing chun lineages used loi luo hui sung instead of these terms "Swallow, spit, lift" except a few from chi sim weng chun.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Hendrik,

I am familar with the White Crane's Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei's snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn't able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei's snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei's snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi's reeling silk? ..





Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Is tai chi reeling silk ? Get a Taiji guy to do WCK's woodern dummy and see for yourself is it the same type of power signature? ..





Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent's arm.....

That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action.

So, in this perspective, SLT's design belongs to the internal or "TaiJi " class of mechanics..

Hendrik, This is exactly what I was asking you to confirm above, not brain surgery or rocket science my friend:)

See that wasn't so hard lol no need to go baisi to anyone for a simple discription of the terminology that you are using:rolleyes:

[kung fu fighter]

yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time.

A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam's 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don't call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.

[Eric_H]

A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam's 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don't call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.

Good to know, thanks for the info KFF

[duende]

Wait a second here... I've been absent from this thread for awhile, but I want to make a quick clarification.

In HFY we do employ Tun/Tou swallow/spit concepts. If fact it is in the advanced layers of our Bai Jong Baat Bo Gin form. Tun Kiu is the actual technique that follows our Wat Dai Wan Yun engagement technique.

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1858&highlight=ton+kiu


I think Eric, is speaking strictly from his Yip Man Moy Yat background here. But I will say, he's right about it seen more often in Weng Chun systems rather than Wing Chun systems

As in the previous YMWC I trained didn't have the swallow/spit concept either.

[RB93SAAT]

A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam's 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don't call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.

people are always amazed yik kam never called his omie chi gung as wing chun and set it straight yik kam little drilling should be called little drilling. Unlike some nut called his omei little drilling as wing chun. Unfortunately, embracing new ideas (omei and sam chien) and being on look out for new way to relate to wing chun people grinds to a halt in many ma communities.

[theo]

Next we will to go visit the Uniqueness in WCK's application strategy.

See how the snake and crane or the WCK Slide, Snap, bounce power generation support the application strategy.

and how WCK doesnt go for Center Line similar to other Southern TCMA and;
where is this "capturing Center line but not brute force" strategy is from?





We know, Center line concept is White Crane of Fujian's uniqueness.


Let's take a look at Sifu Gary Lam's the WCk old timer clip and see if he goes brute force to do face on center line attack.. or he slide and passed....elegantly handle the incoming force ?
(PS. sifu Gary, thanks and appreciate for your sharing in youtube.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

see if he trying to capture or attack center line in a brute force and face on like some other Namkuen ? or he slide passed....elegantly without fighting force against force?


it just happen that what Sifu Gary does also exist in the Emei 12 Zhuang's application strategy kuit as the following.

勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.




So again, IMHO,

when one fuse the White Crane's Center line concept with the Emei's strategy , one sees that type of signature in the WCK applications. in fact, that is Comes accept goes return....etc.


Check it out for yourself on if you could see the same kind of uniqueness in other Southern TCMA?

You dont have to believe me, check it out for yourself, take a look at how Hung gar does, White Crane san chin attack to the center line does.....etc. See for yourself if that WCK uniqueness is in fact WCK's signature.

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu's DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.

Great clip by Gary Lam you posted, from there one can see how he borrows the incoming method of attack to seal his student off before attacking, controlling before striking

[theo]

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu's DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.

Hendrik, what is the "bounce" that you are referring to?

[Hendrik]

Great clip by Gary Lam you posted, from there one can see how he borrows the incoming method of attack to seal his student off before attacking, controlling before striking

Ya, the signature is there and we can trace to the Emei Kuen kuit... all the old timer WCner has the signature.

Thus, it is not the so called Southern Shao lin art as some think.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, what is the "bounce" that you are referring to?

Here are some "bounce"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPXlQBETE-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQS5oOYMVY

Again, different old timer has their own different " flavor" but it is there.

Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.

You could find more in Sifu Robert Chu's DVD under hammer and nail...etc.

[kung fu fighter]

Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.

When I do Snap, my whole body is connected as a unit, it's not just localized.


Here is a clear explanation of bounce http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

Here is are some great training methods to develop the snake slide power generation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjs-roWT1zw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJteuieT7b8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxmOeq3G9Y

[theo]

Here are some "bounce"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPXlQBETE-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQS5oOYMVY

Again, different old timer has their own different " flavor" but it is there.

Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.

You could find more in Sifu Robert Chu's DVD under hammer and nail...etc.

Got it! This is actually a very interesting area on the subject because if one were to ask, what is WCK? what makes it different from karate or anything else? i've been stumped on that one before and never really got a good answer from anybody else. getting a few kuits or general ideas in response i.e. centerline doesn't get down to the a,b,c of it. My thinking then was if you can't identify what it is or should be, how do you know you're doing it anymore? just that for one's own sake, one should be able to identify WCK or any style by its training, power generation, and application approach since one leads to another. what i'm most curious about now is, how does one's SLT train the power generation if this power signature is also a uniqueness of WCK? power is power in the end, a force vector but how is it issued. if seems logical to me that different training produces different power issuing mechanics/methods. but before even getting to generating power, what about being able to? as in, do we have the right foundation to do so.

[Hendrik]

When I do Snap, my whole body is connected as a unit, it's not just localized.

That is because you still dont know what I am refer to but thinking you know.






Here is a clear explanation of bounce http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

Great Thanks!

Alan did an excellent job.






Here is are some great training methods to develop the snake slide power generation

You need to go baisi because you still dont know what snake sliding power generation means.

For example, look at the body distance of your clips
how is that compare with Sifu Gary or Alan's clip above in term of body distance?

[Hendrik]

A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam's 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don't call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.



Could you please make sure your information is proper before you post something?

For example, Yahu and Nga Woo is not two villages. Nga Woo is Yahu in Cantonese.

Also, you need to name the name of those so called elders ,who call their art Weng Chun so we know and can trace who they are, instead of a he says She says ...

[Hendrik]

what i'm most curious about now is, how does one's SLT train the power generation if this power signature is also a uniqueness of WCK?

power is power in the end, a force vector but how is it issued.

if seems logical to me that different training produces different power issuing mechanics/methods.

but before even getting to generating power, what about being able to? as in, do we have the right foundation to do so.


You are right.

That is where one needs to go Baisi to learn from an Old timer WCner sifu who has the transmission.

That is because it involve lots of details and in general not "imaginable" and one spend lots of time to cultivate power generation. One simply need a coach, that is cultivate Kung Fu.

[t_niehoff]

You're not very good at reading are you?

I acknowledge that yes, various WCK motions can be describe in those terms but they are not native to WCK.


Ah, yes they are. Perhaps they are not "native" to what your teacher is doing, but they are a part of WCK.



There has been argument that Yuen Kay San studied some Weng Chun or other elements which may be where he got them. Looking at his brother's lineage in Vietnam which has a hodgepodge of a ton of different CMA I'd be inclined to agree that's the source.


Sink, rise, swallow, spit is in ALL WCK.



In LEGITIMATE WCK we use "Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut sau chi chung" not "Tun/tou."


It's lut sao jik chung. Also, these two (the method and the kuit) both refer to the same thing -- how do you stay with his pressure? One way is to swallow it. How do you jik chung? One way is to spit. This is WCK 101.

Does that mean everyone who trains or learns WCK has learned it? Of course not. Most people practicing and teaching WCK are missing parts of the core curriculum. But just because you didn't learn it doesn't mean it isn't a part of the curriculum.



What a surprise, someone who doesn't even know the fist maxims of Wing Chun agrees with Hendrik. Good thing those presses are already stopped.

If Yik Kam Siu Lein Tao contained more Wing Chun and less O-mei and White Crane, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Then again, Yik Kam never called his system Wing Chun so I guess it's a moot point to discuss it as such.

Interesting that your sihing (Alex/Duende) has pointed out that these things you believe are not a part of WCK are in fact a part of HFY's curriculum. This sort of refutes your whole argument, doesn't it? It just seems that YOU haven't learned it even though it is a part of WCK. There is a lesson there -- although I don't think you will see it.

[t_niehoff]

i agree with you 100%. most wing chun lineages used loi luo hui sung instead of these terms "Swallow, spit, lift" except a few from chi sim weng chun.

Another one who apparently slept through WCK 101.

The kuit (lai lou hoi soong) refers to how we deal with pressure -- to not knock it away, dodge it, etc but to stay/receive it as it comes. While it provides a direction, it does not provide a method, a way of doing that. Tun (swallow) is a method, not a direction. It is a way of performing lai loa (staying as he comes by swallowing his pressure).

Apparently this is also (according to your sihing Alex/Duende) taught in HFY, although YOU have not yet learned it (although this is basic level WCK).

[RB93SAAT]

Another one who apparently slept through WCK 101.

The kuit (lai lou hoi soong) refers to how we deal with pressure -- to not knock it away, dodge it, etc but to stay/receive it as it comes. While it provides a direction, it does not provide a method, a way of doing that. Tun (swallow) is a method, not a direction. It is a way of performing lai loa (staying as he comes by swallowing his pressure).

Apparently this is also (according to your sihing Alex/Duende) taught in HFY, although YOU have not yet learned it (although this is basic level WCK).

apparently your sigung hendrik can't help you learn wck 101, because he's doing o-mei. in that case, your sihing alex (taught in HFY) may not be able to help you as well. then you may need to look for another genuine wing chun sifu like victor parlati, i'm sure he can help you to advance your wing chun. you are welcome.

[t_niehoff]

apparently your sigung hendrik can't help you learn wck 101, because he's doing o-mei.


Hendrik isn't my sigung. And, he is talking about WCK, and how he believes Ermei may be one of the foundation arts (as he thinks aspects of it were adopted into WCK) that went into WCK's development.

Do you even train in WCK? If so, where/from whom did you get your training?



in that case, your sihing alex (taught in HFY) may not be able to help you as well.


Alex is not my sihing either.



then you may need to look for another genuine wing chun sifu like victor parlati, i'm sure he can help you to advance your wing chun. you are welcome.

Is he your sifu?

[kung fu fighter]

That is because you still dont know what I am refer to but thinking you know.

sure I do, you are referring to the wrist snap done with localized arm/tricep muscle starting at1:24 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg&feature=channel

as well as 1:42 in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpIQGflqxMY


You need to go baisi because you still dont know what snake sliding power generation means.

For example, look at the body distance of your clips
how is that compare with Sifu Gary or Alan's clip above in term of body distance?

wing chun snake power generation can be used at close body distance or at long range bridging distance. Perhaps Yik Kam had a small snake lol or only learnt half of the snake usage. Why don't you expand your snake power generation usuage instead of limiting yourself to a pioneer of the system. given a few lifetimes, Yik Kam probably would have as well:)



Could you please make sure your information is proper before you post something?...

For example, Yahu and Nga Woo is not two villages. Nga Woo is Yahu in Cantonese....[/QUOTE]

my bad the other village wck system that my friend researched was called Namhoi or Nam yeung, but Yahu was the main one.


Also, you need to name the name of those so called elders ,who call their art Weng Chun so we know and can trace who they are, instead of a he says She says ...

Hendrik, You need to go baisi to a good yik kam linage elder to get this info:D

[t_niehoff]

wing chun snake power generation can be used at close body distance or at long range bridging distance. Perhaps Yik Kam had a small snake lol or only learnt half of the snake usage. Why don't you expand your snake power generation usuage instead of limiting yourself to a pioneer of the system. given a few lifetimes, Yik Kam probably would have as well:)


What Hendrik is talking about is part of WCK (whether it comes from Emei or not). You can see it in the Gary Lam videos cited, and is in YM WCK (which Gary trained), in YKS WCK, in Gu Lao, etc. In other words, is doesn't just come from Yik Kam's branch.

The "sliding" (snake power) isn't something you can do with your bridges extended -- you need to have Duen Kiu, Tib San, Che Lun Ma - Short Bridge, Close Body, Carriage Wheels (another of those pesky kuit).

[Hendrik]

What Hendrik is talking about is part of WCK (whether it comes from Emei or not). You can see it in the Gary Lam videos cited, and is in YM WCK (which Gary trained), in YKS WCK, in Gu Lao, etc. In other words, is doesn't just come from Yik Kam's branch.

The "sliding" (snake power) isn't something you can do with your bridges extended -- you need to have Duen Kiu, Tib San, Che Lun Ma - Short Bridge, Close Body, Carriage Wheels (another of those pesky kuit).



Terence,

You are correct. It is an across the WCK lineages signature.

Whether the signature comes from Mars or Western boxing. ... I careless. The point is to see it face it and know what is it.


and I am not promoting Yik Kam lineage in here either.
In fact, I dont care.
A lineage is just a tool to pointing at the moon. once one sees the moon that's all. After that one evolve one's own WCK further. There is no point to go back to the past. no one can go back and fantasy of living in the past is a trap.

So, why do I dig deep into the ancient traditional Chinese mind set....etc. because I want to see what exactly they are talking about. and know what the heck they are doing, and hopefully I got the process and I can do it too. once I got the process, hey I live in 2010 with IPAD and Iphone..


As usual, KFF always think he knows but he is fuzzy. and then start making all kind of speculation grasping his own mind. I learn to let it be these days, just let him be who he is.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, You need to go baisi to a good yik kam linage elder to get this info:D


Baisi is not a problem for me if their are more knowledgeble then me on the subject.
I always can learn more.

You need to name the name of those so called elderly you mention here if you are serious to present something.

However, if it turns out to be a "he says she says" then it is your responsibility to clean your mess.

[Hendrik]

sure I do, you are referring to the wrist snap done with localized arm/tricep muscle starting at1:24 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg&feature=channel

as well as 1:42 in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpIQGflqxMY
.



The following is your claim in the previous post.




When I do Snap, my whole body is connected as a unit, it's not just localized.


Read it yourself and ask yourself what the heck you are talking about?

While WSL is talking Snap or localization power generation --- a uniqueness of WCK where power is generated without the need of a whole body connected as a unit.




my bad the other village wck system that my friend researched was called Namhoi or Nam yeung, but Yahu was the main one.



Make sure you know and verify what you are talking about before you post something. Or if you love to be a National Enquirer reporter that is fine with me.

[chusauli]

LOL!

Nam Hoi (Nan Hai) is in Guang Dong...but Nam Yeung (Nan Yang) is the old name for Singapore! LOL!

KFF, you seem geographically challenged! Get thee to a map!

[kung fu fighter]

The following is your claim in the previous post.

Read it yourself and ask yourself what the heck you are talking about?

While WSL is talking Snap or localization power generation --- a uniqueness of WCK where power is generated without the need of a whole body connected as a unit.

I was merely stating that the snap power generation can also be done with a connected body as well, since you only seem to know about the localized method.

[chusauli]

Hendrik,

If I may be so bold, WCK is:

"Lai Lou Hui Soong; Lut Sao Jik Chung"

"Lai Lou" means you have structure...

"Hui Soong" means you be a gentleman and let them in, then when they leave, you send them off...hence your second line can take care of them.

"Lut sao (or Fung Lut) Jik Chung" means you rush in with loss of contact, because, afterall, you are a gentleman. :)

[Hendrik]

I was merely stating that the snap power generation can also be done with a connected body as well,

since you only seem to know about the localized method.


Come on dont BULL me. Dont play smart a$$ because the more you play the more you get stuck.


You know why is there a great significant advantage of the Localize Snap? or Inch power Join force?

Why is the mother of WCK the White Crane of Fujian create it and have an advantage over other arts?

and why is the needs of that type of power?

[kung fu fighter]

LOL!

Nam Hoi (Nan Hai) is in Guang Dong...but Nam Yeung (Nan Yang) is the old name for Singapore! LOL!

KFF, you seem geographically challenged! Get thee to a map!

Oops, thanks for the clarification Robert, then it's Nam Hai for sure.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

If I may be so bold, WCK is:

"Lai Lou Hui Soong; Lut Sao Jik Chung"

"Lai Lou" means you have structure...

"Hui Soong" means you be a gentleman and let them in, then when they leave, you send them off...hence your second line can take care of them.

"Lut sao (or Fung Lut) Jik Chung" means you rush in with loss of contact, because, afterall, you are a gentleman. :)



After you know the moon, moon is every where. :D
Since you can do it what you say is right.

[Hendrik]

Oops, thanks for the clarification Robert, then it's Nam Hai for sure.

The incapable of getting a simple name correct tell us the quality of the research isnt it?

[kung fu fighter]

The incapable of getting a simple name correct tell us the quality of the research isnt it?

just because my chinese isn't very good, dont be so offended, unless there is something to be offended about:D

[Eric_H]

Terence,

You are correct. It is an across the WCK lineages signature.

Whether the signature comes from Mars or Western boxing. ... I careless. The point is to see it face it and know what is it.



Then why do you have such a ******* for pushing this white crane/emei garbage down everyone's throat?



and I am not promoting Yik Kam lineage in here either.


Mostly because you're not qualified to.



As usual, KFF always think he knows but he is fuzzy. and then start making all kind of speculation grasping his own mind. I learn to let it be these days, just let him be who he is.

He's brought more to the discussion then you have so far.




Hendrik,

If I may be so bold, WCK is:

"Lai Lou Hui Soong; Lut Sao Jik Chung"

"Lai Lou" means you have structure...

"Hui Soong" means you be a gentleman and let them in, then when they leave, you send them off...hence your second line can take care of them.

"Lut sao (or Fung Lut) Jik Chung" means you rush in with loss of contact, because, afterall, you are a gentleman.



Robert's on 100%. That's what I was saying.

[kung fu fighter]

Come on dont BULL me. Dont play smart a$$ because the more you play the more you get stuck.


You know why is there a great significant advantage of the Localize Snap? or Inch power Join force?

Why is the mother of WCK the White Crane of Fujian create it and have an advantage over other arts?

and why is the needs of that type of power?

Nice editing job, sounds like you are the one that was stuck before you did your editing job to bull me, thinking i wouldn't notice. Nicely done, well played out.:D

[duende]

Interesting that your sihing (Alex/Duende) has pointed out that these things you believe are not a part of WCK are in fact a part of HFY's curriculum. This sort of refutes your whole argument, doesn't it? It just seems that YOU haven't learned it even though it is a part of WCK. There is a lesson there -- although I don't think you will see it.

In Eric's defense, different WC lineages/schools focus on concepts and their perspective training drills at different times according to their own curriculum.

For instance, we teach Chi Sau later on in the advance student levels. I had a YKS friend from China who also said that at his school Chi Sau was also not taught until later advanced learning stages.

Also, their was a point where some of our schools were actually not being taught the HFY curriculum and instead a super-imposed curriculum that students had to learn before HFY. But that's all in the past now.

[Hendrik]

Nice editing job, sounds like you are the one that was stuck before you did your editing job to bull me, thinking i wouldn't notice. Nicely done, well played out.:D

Hope that some days you change for better.

[JPinAZ]

Come on dont BULL me. Dont play smart a$$ because the more you play the more you get stuck.

You know why is there a great significant advantage of the Localize Snap? or Inch power Join force?

Why is the mother of WCK the White Crane of Fujian create it and have an advantage over other arts?

and why is the needs of that type of power?

Now you're bull sh!tting yourself! Any kind of real striking power comes form the whole body being connected, not just a limb. From the feet up through the knees, hips, spine, elbow, and into the hand. Even 'inch power' - it still comes from the whole body if you want to do any real damage and not end up on your butt crying 'that's not wing chun, that's not wing chun' ;)

Sure, you can get some 'snap' from just the hand/wrist, but that's all it will be, a snap. No real damaging power there. And this isn't just WC either, boxers know this as well. As do any good fighters. If you did some actual training and tried it you'd know (sheesh, I'm starting to sound like T). And it's not something you can learn from an ipad, or iphone either, regardless what year it is :rolleyes:

If you did more than sit at your kitchen table and video yourself babbling on and on, or filming your students petting invisible dogs, you would realize what you are talking about is beginner baby stuff.. or maybe you should go baisi and train and stop wasting your company's time posting on internet forums all day

[Hendrik]

Sad, Another guy who doenst know WCK and clueless on different types of power generation.

IT is obvious that what you do is not WCK either.

Clueless on Chinese Martial art developement evolution too. Sad.




Any kind of real striking power comes form the whole body being connected, not just a limb.From the feet up through the knees, hips, spine, elbow, and into the hand. Even 'inch power' - it still comes from the whole body ............

[duende]

If you did more than sit at your kitchen table and video yourself babbling on and on, or filming your students petting invisible dogs....

Sorry... but you got to admit... this is pretty darn hilarious!! :p

Petting invisible dogs?? BWAHAHAHA!! :D ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Now you're bull sh!tting yourself! Any kind of real striking power comes form the whole body being connected, not just a limb. From the feet up through the knees, hips, spine, elbow, and into the hand. Even 'inch power' - it still comes from the whole body if you want to do any real damage and not end up on your butt crying 'that's not wing chun, that's not wing chun' ;)

Sure, you can get some 'snap' from just the hand/wrist, but that's all it will be, a snap. No real damaging power there. And this isn't just WC either, boxers know this as well. As do any good fighters. If you did some actual training and tried it you'd know (sheesh, I'm starting to sound like T). And it's not something you can learn from an ipad, or iphone either, regardless what year it is :rolleyes:

If you did more than sit at your kitchen table and video yourself babbling on and on, or filming your students petting invisible dogs, you would realize what you are talking about is beginner baby stuff.. or maybe you should go baisi and train and stop wasting your company's time posting on internet forums all day


This is exactly what i have been trying to explain to Hendrik, but he wants to believe his version is the only correct one lol I have been following Hendrik's posts for years now, I don't think he's got much real fighting experience, if he did it would be reflected in his posts.

[t_niehoff]

In Eric's defense, different WC lineages/schools focus on concepts and their perspective training drills at different times according to their own curriculum.


Yes, I know. But IMO that's not a defense -- "I haven't learned that so it must not be part of WCK" or "if my teacher doesn't teach it then it must not be WCK or important." I don't think that sort of lineage-centric thinking is unique in any way to HFY or any branch.

I've met this POV throughout my time in WCK.

We need to see WCK as bigger, more expansive than just our own little branch/lineage (which is only someone's way of teaching it). And to accept that my teacher may not have it all. To take the time to look to other legitimate branches of WCK, to find out what the commonality is, etc.

[Hendrik]

This is exactly what i have been trying to explain to Hendrik, but he wants to believe his version is the only correct one lol I have been following Hendrik's posts for years now, I don't think he's got much real fighting experience, if he did it would be reflected in his posts.



Sure, believe all you like to. I would not like to change you.




To other WCner's,

Mid 1600, in the middle of war between Qing and Ming Dynasty, White Crane of Fujian introduce a type of new power generation call Inch power and join force..... a new evolution started in China's martial art technology... faster , better, more efficient.... and crispy... That is a part of history we WCner need to know. This type of power was exported to Taiwan, and then brought back to Fujian on late 1600 after Qing capture Taiwan....
It was proven in the battle field.


As for WCK which is the decendent of White Crane of Fujian,
WCK doesnt use full body power always. in fact alots of time, full body power is not applicable and also become a trap of itself... and the Inch Power Join force is evoke....

this inch power join force combine with the Emei's snake slide worm move, becomes today's WCK .... and the saga continuous....

[t_niehoff]

This is exactly what i have been trying to explain to Hendrik, but he wants to believe his version is the only correct one lol I have been following Hendrik's posts for years now, I don't think he's got much real fighting experience, if he did it would be reflected in his posts.

No, you're not listening to Hendrik. He is describing a specific method (sliding or snake power or whatever you want to call it) that is part of WCK's method -- it's part of YM, YKS, Gu Lao, etc. All legitimate WCK lineages ahve it in their curriculum. You believe you "understand" what he is referring to but you don't (as evidenced by your post saying that you don't need to be close to do it). There is no "version" to it. You either know it or you don't.

And this has nothing to do with fighting experience -- we are talking about the curriculum of WCK.

[Hendrik]

No, you're not listening to Hendrik. He is describing a specific method (sliding or snake power or whatever you want to call it) that is part of WCK's method -- it's part of YM, YKS, Gu Lao, etc. All legitimate WCK lineages ahve it in their curriculum. You believe you "understand" what he is referring to but you don't (as evidenced by your post saying that you don't need to be close to do it). There is no "version" to it. You either know it or you don't.

And this has nothing to do with fighting experience -- we are talking about the curriculum of WCK.

Yup, sad isnt it?

[t_niehoff]

Sure, believe all you like to. I would not like to change you.

To other WCner's,

Mid 1600, in the middle of war between Qing and Ming Dynasty, White Crane of Fujian introduce a type of new power generation call Inch power and join force..... a new evolution started in China's martial art technology... faster , better, more efficient.... and crispy... That is a part of history we WCner need to know. This type of power was exported to Taiwan, and then brought back to Fujian on late 1600 after Qing capture Taiwan....
It was proven in the battle field.


As for WCK which is the decendent of White Crane of Fujian,
WCK doesnt use full body power always in fact alots of time, full body power is not applicable and also become a trap of itself... and the Inch Power Join force is evoke....

and the saga continuous....

No, we don't need to know that. No one needs to know the history of WCK to learn WCK. In fact, I think much of the problem is that people sometimes try to use "history" to validate their approaches -- with this "history" running from stories to legends to more substantial/grounded speculation. I think your theory of WCK's origin is interesting and persuasive, but it is not proof. Moreover, I have some issues with the reasoning used to support your theory.

We can know what is in the WCK core curriculum by looking to the legit lineages of WCK and seeing what they have in common, from movement/actions, to exercises, to forms, to methods, to kuit, etc. We don't need to accept or adopt or support any historical view.

[kung fu fighter]

No, you're not listening to Hendrik. He is describing a specific method (sliding or snake power or whatever you want to call it) that is part of WCK's method -- it's part of YM, YKS, Gu Lao, etc. All legitimate WCK lineages ahve it in their curriculum. You believe you "understand" what he is referring to but you don't (as evidenced by your post saying that you don't need to be close to do it). There is no "version" to it. You either know it or you don't.

I disagree! The snake power generation can be done at both close and long bridge range. it can be done at the wrist, elbow, shoulder, hips or any other part of the body for that matter including the feet.

[t_niehoff]

I disagree! The snake power generation can be done at both close and long bridge range. In fact it can even be done with any part of the body for that matter.

I think you are confused by terminology. You have something that YOU perhaps call "snake power" and think think this is what Hendrik is referring to. It isn't. If you can do it at "long bridge range" then it isn't the method Hendrik is referring to. It requires short bridge and close body.

[Hendrik]

No, we don't need to know that. No one needs to know the history of WCK to learn WCK.

In fact, I think much of the problem is that people sometimes try to use "history" to validate their approaches -- with this "history" running from stories to legends to more substantial/grounded speculation. I think your theory of WCK's origin is interesting and persuasive, but it is not proof. Moreover, I have some issues with the reasoning used to support your theory.





That is ok with me with your view.
Historical facts are historical facts. So like it some dont.

As for the development of Inch power and joint force,
that is recorded in Chinese history to be checked out for those who is interested.

Inch power means a type of short burst power. Joint force means the force is power from the Joints. This is White Crane not Taiji reeling silk type of whole body stuffs or Hung gar.


As for the theory of origin of WCK proof and others approval...etc, I careless.

knowing the Keys process from White Crane and Emei which has enable me to turn on the power generation of the SLT has served the purpose of my search. What I need is the key to turn on the sport car, I careless if it is German, Italiano, Japanese key. But I do know after if the sport car engine got turn on is it BWM, Luxes, Benz, or Boxter.... That is a reality by itself which no need of proof, because it is what it is.


I present what I know and upto others to take what they like. different people think different way and it is ok with me on how they like to formulate their stuffs.


The ultimate reality one has to face is, can one turn on one's SLT engine and evoke the art of WCK. That is beyond words and proof and theory. Can one do it? That is the bottom line one has to answer for him/herself. IMHO





We can know what is in the WCK core curriculum by looking to the legit lineages of WCK and seeing what they have in common, from movement/actions, to exercises, to forms, to methods, to kuit, etc. We don't need to accept or adopt or support any historical view.


Yup, agree.

[duende]

We need to see WCK as bigger, more expansive than just our own little branch/lineage (which is only someone's way of teaching it). And to accept that my teacher may not have it all. To take the time to look to other legitimate branches of WCK, to find out what the commonality is, etc.

Yeah... I agree. And that's exactly why I think Hendrik is on the WRONG track. He has his blinders on and ignores any WC methodology that doesn't conform to his small take on things.

Seriously... just look at his posts. You got to admit, he is not open to anyone's understanding's except his own.

On top of that... Over and over again, he make's wildly ignorant blanket statements based on his assumptions solely to fuel his ego.

And then when he is met with the same crashing energy he dishes out... He can't take it, and inevitably starts to loose his English skills, goes off into fantasy land, and plays the martyr!

[Eric_H]

He can't take it, and inevitably starts to loose his English skills, goes off into fantasy land, and plays the martyr!


Or he just deletes the thread. ;)

[theo]

Now you're bull sh!tting yourself! Any kind of real striking power comes form the whole body being connected, not just a limb. From the feet up through the knees, hips, spine, elbow, and into the hand. Even 'inch power' - it still comes from the whole body if you want to do any real damage and not end up on your butt crying 'that's not wing chun, that's not wing chun' ;)

Sure, you can get some 'snap' from just the hand/wrist, but that's all it will be, a snap. No real damaging power there. And this isn't just WC either, boxers know this as well. As do any good fighters. If you did some actual training and tried it you'd know (sheesh, I'm starting to sound like T). And it's not something you can learn from an ipad, or iphone either, regardless what year it is :rolleyes:

If you did more than sit at your kitchen table and video yourself babbling on and on, or filming your students petting invisible dogs, you would realize what you are talking about is beginner baby stuff.. or maybe you should go baisi and train and stop wasting your company's time posting on internet forums all day

i think hendrik's got some valid questions here. and i think we should all appreciate him taking the time to do the youtube presentation because he explained his viewpoint very clearly in there and i for one thought it was very informative. he's brought up a lot of concepts that really showed me a different way of looking and thinking about WCK. which is why we're all talking about it here.

[theo]

That is ok with me with your view.
Historical facts are historical facts. So like it some dont.

As for the development of Inch power and joint force,
that is recorded in Chinese history to be checked out for those who is interested.

Inch power means a type of short burst power. Joint force means the force is power from the Joints. This is White Crane not Taiji reeling silk type of whole body stuffs or Hung gar.


As for the theory of origin of WCK proof and others approval...etc, I careless.

knowing the Keys process from White Crane and Emei which has enable me to turn on the power generation of the SLT has served the purpose of my search. What I need is the key to turn on the sport car, I careless if it is German, Italiano, Japanese key. But I do know after if the sport car engine got turn on is it BWM, Luxes, Benz, or Boxter.... That is a reality by itself which no need of proof, because it is what it is.


I present what I know and upto others to take what they like. different people think different way and it is ok with me on how they like to formulate their stuffs.


The ultimate reality one has to face is, can one turn on one's SLT engine and evoke the art of WCK. That is beyond words and proof and theory. Can one do it? That is the bottom line one has to answer for him/herself. IMHO






Yup, agree.

Hendrik, are they keys that you mention from Crane and Emei the Inch Joint Power of White Crane, six directional forces, and snake slide worm moves? I know I'm being very general here and there are possibly more but wanted to see if that's what you meant by "keys". One can go and pull all these things together, but the real "trick" is how they are expressed and trained in SLT (by that I also mean SLT,CK,BJ together for those lineages that have three forms).

[JPinAZ]

i think hendrik's got some valid questions here. and i think we should all appreciate him taking the time to do the youtube presentation because he explained his viewpoint very clearly in there and i for one thought it was very informative. he's brought up a lot of concepts that really showed me a different way of looking and thinking about WCK. which is why we're all talking about it here.

That's really wonderful, "whoever" you are ;)
But everything Hendrik spews here and on video is rubbish, and has nothing to do with Wing Chun. And you're right, you are probably the only one that found it informative.

[Hendrik]

i think hendrik's got some valid questions here. and i think we should all appreciate him taking the time to do the youtube presentation because he explained his viewpoint very clearly in there and i for one thought it was very informative. he's brought up a lot of concepts that really showed me a different way of looking and thinking about WCK. which is why we're all talking about it here.


If we present WCK as in the Ancient time of China, then what I present here is just a drop from the bucket.

In the ancient way, we need to go deep into Tee and Yoong or "body" of the art and application of the art.

"body" of the art, will involve the power generation and the Body-mind conditioning.
Application of the art, will involve the strategy of application, and the use of the Power.


Just to give you and WCners who is interested in the present and future.

For example, the power snap, slide, and bounce are three different type of power. So to generate that the body-mind needs to be condition in a way it could support the three type of power generation.

For the body-mind condition, which is Kung, there is where the Jing , Qi, Shen ....training comes in.... and in this case, since WCK is no longer the Hard style like pre 1800 White Crane of Fujian, WCK take the path of Emei 12 zhuang internal path. and the YJKYM is the signature of this path. Then One get into why is it clamping the Yang, and how clamping the Yang lead to a nature flow of the whole body's 20 medirians......etc.



Another example, the strategy of application will have to deal with the use of different types of JIn such as the Snap, slide, and bounce. So when is Snap needed, When is slide needed, and when is bounce needed. and which jin is use to penetrate and which jin is use to bounce off. how to dissolve each of them.....etc. Furthermore, what type of Momentum (Sheh in mandarin) is evoked and how to break the momentum with what.....etc. how to use and break momentum....


A balance of system things view is needed to really know the art. What we have today is partial compare with those who has it in 1850. Mostly today is only covering the application strategy or technics but missing lots of things.


So, it is a very deep professional instead of what people see Chinese Kung Fu today. In the ancient time, Chinese Martial art is MMA. if one study the Emei 12 Zhuang's documents one will know it covers MMA.

The issue is this type of study is very costly, my ancestors, the Cho family are martial art family for generation who has the Qing Martial art scholar Title of Wu Chi as I was told. They were real pro. I am lucking to be able to see some of the inner family details which they have passed down to my sifu. And no problem to share because it is time to discuss and to define what is WCK. IMHO.


Finally, Yes, one needs to cultivate the Dan Dien's Zhen Qi with YJKYM. Because that is the only way one can go beyond one's born/inherited physical body-mind and deal with aging. Zhen Qi is as real as gold and as true as blood. it is not something to be ignore, and also that is the power to triggle the nature healing. SLT is to promote the flow of Zhen Qi in the 20 medirians while practicing the set beside the martial application.

Until one has the key to turn on all of these, one will not see the beauty of the original face of Miss Yim Wing Chun.

Always my favorite song for those who knows the chinese and music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htcW2dCvpTo&feature=related

Just some thought.

[theo]

Yeah... I agree. And that's exactly why I think Hendrik is on the WRONG track. He has his blinders on and ignores any WC methodology that doesn't conform to his small take on things.

Seriously... just look at his posts. You got to admit, he is not open to anyone's understanding's except his own.

On top of that... Over and over again, he make's wildly ignorant blanket statements based on his assumptions solely to fuel his ego.

And then when he is met with the same crashing energy he dishes out... He can't take it, and inevitably starts to loose his English skills, goes off into fantasy land, and plays the martyr!

guys nobody ever said they knew it all here, at least from what i've read. i think we're all here to learn and discuss, but in my opinion, there are just certain things that one should know to say you are doing WCK. so when some idea comes up, we got to be honest with ourselves and see if we really understand it. if we understand it, we should be able to explain it, as in why and how. someone should be able to repeat it and get the same results (in principle, not exact shape etc). everybody has an answer but there has to be an agreement on what right is. and in many cases, this has been investigated and defined before by the WCK ancestors, the problem is understanding that depends on how things were passed down, and if the right interpretations were passed down, and that's a problem for all lineages.

[theo]

If we present WCK as in the Ancient time of China, then what I present here is just a drop from the bucket.

In the ancient way, we need to go deep into Tee and Yoong or "body" of the art and application of the art.

"body" of the art, will involve the power generation and the Body-mind conditioning.
Application of the art, will involve the strategy of application, and the use of the Power.


Just to give you and WCners who is interested in the present and future.

For example, the power snap, slide, and bounce are three different type of power. So to generate that the body-mind needs to be condition in a way it could support the three type of power generation.

For the body-mind condition, which is Kung, there is where the Jing , Qi, Shen ....training comes in.... and in this case, since WCK is no longer the Hard style like pre 1800 White Crane of Fujian, WCK take the path of Emei 12 zhuang internal path. and the YJKYM is the signature of this path. Then One get into why is it clamping the Yang, and how clamping the Yang lead to a nature flow of the whole body's 20 medirians......etc.



Another example, the strategy of application will have to deal with the use of different types of JIn such as the Snap, slide, and bounce. So when is Snap needed, When is slide needed, and when is bounce needed. and which jin is use to penetrate and which jin is use to bounce off. how to dissolve each of them.....etc. Furthermore, what type of Momentum (Sheh in mandarin) is evoked and how to break the momentum with what.....etc. how to use and break momentum....


A balance of system things view is needed to really know the art. What we have today is partial compare with those who has it in 1850. Mostly today is only covering the application strategy or technics but missing lots of things.


So, it is a very deep professional instead of what people see Chinese Kung Fu today. In the ancient time, Chinese Martial art is MMA. if one study the Emei 12 Zhuang's documents one will know it covers MMA.

The issue is this type of study is very costly, my ancestors, the Cho family are martial art family for generation who has the Qing Martial art scholar Title of Wu Chi as I was told. They were real pro. I am lucking to be able to see some of the inner family details which they have passed down to my sifu. And no problem to share because it is time to discuss and to define what is WCK. IMHO.


Finally, Yes, one needs to cultivate the Dan Dien's Zhen Qi with YJKYM. Because that is the only way one can go beyond one's born/inherited physical body-mind and deal with aging. Zhen Qi is as real as gold and as true and blood. it is not something to be ignore, and also that is the power to triggle the nature healing. SLT is to promote the flow of Zhen Qi in the 20 medirians while practicing the set beside the martial application.

Until one has the key to turn on all of these, one will not see the beauty of the original face of Miss Yim Wing Chun.


Just some thought.

I agree. The things that you mention here cannot be developed just by repeating what we know today as SLT/CK/BJ until infinity--unless we are incorporating all the elements described. Doing lop sau all day won't get you there, that was a realization I had a long time ago. We're talking about an internal art here and the trouble is the cost involved, it takes some serious time and effort to dig deep and grasp what's going on. In your opinion, since one can cultivate Zhen Qi from YJKYM, is the YJKYM also a "posture/zhuang/post" besides a stance? These are the keys that I try to keep in mind to do this: Connecting the Du and Ren while utilizing lower lung breathing, not clamping the knees forcefully, with the spine kept straight. Weight sits naturally and feels distributed along the yang edge of the feet. What I'm not so sure about is the hip area, I definitely do not want to force it to be tucked in, but not stick out either, so I'm trying to localize it and feel it support the spine. Where does one place the intention, if used at all?

[Hendrik]

In your opinion, since one can cultivate Zhen Qi from YJKYM, is the YJKYM also a "posture/zhuang/post" besides a stance?

These are the keys that I try to keep in mind to do this: Connecting the Du and Ren while utilizing lower lung breathing, not clamping the knees forcefully, with the spine kept straight.

Weight sits naturally and feels distributed along the yang edge of the feet.

What I'm not so sure about is the hip area, I definitely do not want to force it to be tucked in, but not stick out either, so I'm trying to localize it and feel it support the spine.

Where does one place the intention, if used at all?



1, YJKYM is based on Nature post of human. In that post every part of the body could be loosen up.

2, with the body weight more distribute on the Yang side of the legs, the balance and loosen could be naturally achieve. and let the 12 ying and yang medirians flow naturally at every breath. Knee must not be clamp and spine must not be fixed because that the body is alive and changing.

Thus, in the begining of training, the proper way is to stand high stance instead of low stance where one becomes tense. Often one even has to go into laying flat to sense the loose up. Thus, it is not a brute force training but a tuning training where one keep tuning the body until it resonance with the nature.


3, One cannot connect the Ren and Du using lower abdorment breathing by force. That is consider mis practiced.

The true practice is when the mind is quiet, the body is loose, with natural breathing one first open the Ren and store Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien, and then once the Dan Dien's Zhen Qi accumulation is strong, it will be able flow into the Du and up to the top and comes down back to the Dan dien.

However, none of the above could be done via a slight forcefull. one needs a sifu who has experience to coach one with this. Even if just cultivate to open the Ren and capable to Store Zhen Qi into Dan Dien without open up the Du, one will feel the different in health obviously.

So, without Baisi to some one who has that kung fu attainment, one will not be able to attain the state.


4, Kua, hip and feets and spine are not easy to be loosen up and handle. Each of these area has a different key to handle. so it cannot be brute force. also, when one is breathing the spine is also sync with the breathing, so nothing is hold fix but everything is sync and align within a range. that is the key.


5, according to the Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit, after the above is attained when one do the SLT the flow of Qi in the medirians will surface. IE: biu jee will cause the 3 ying hands medirians to flow, lap sao will cause the 3 yang hands medirians to flow. fook sau will cause the 3 ying medirians to flow, wu sau will cause the 3 yang medirians to flow.


It is real? yes. it can be done. Thus, the first five stanza of Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit is very important because without the basic the training to that level cannot taken place. and the attainment of the SLT to that level is impossible. but the most important is a sifu who knows it, otherwise it is impossible.


however, for today's SLT practice, all the above is no longer follow. we are practicing a different type of physical training. and physical training is good enough for today's WCK era and let it be.

[theo]

That's really wonderful, "whoever" you are ;)
But everything Hendrik spews here and on video is rubbish, and has nothing to do with Wing Chun. And you're right, you are probably the only one that found it informative.

maybe it's a good time to introduce myself more. i studied YM lineage wing chun before studying kulo pin sun wing chun under a close student of Jim Roselando. i know Jim writes a bit on the forums too. i consider myself fortunate for having that opportunity and this opportunity to talk to other WCners. i have never met Hendrik but i respect his views and they converge with mine. he's being real generous with his info imo. he obviously is much more experienced than me, but i'm glad he's willing to share his insights. and i'd be interested to hear everyone else's too, that's why we're here. although it's been some years, i consider myself a beginner still and have recently changed my thinking about a lot of things.

[theo]

Always my favorite song for those who knows the chinese and music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htcW2dCvpTo&feature=related

Just some thought.

Great song, I never watched the show before but I'm sure it brings back the memories for those who did

[Violent Designs]

From an outsider's (non-WCK) perspective.

The amount of sheer arrogance/ego in this thread is so absolutely ridiculous, even beyond some of the worst CLF flame wars I've seen/read/been-in.

So much that it's hilarious.

I've disagreed/argued/flamed Hendrik in the past multiple times but being very honest this is one time where I believe he is just being honest and people are getting very ummm... insecure and upset? LOL

[theo]

1, YJKYM is based on Nature post of human. In that post every part of the body could be loosen up.

Thus, in the begining of training, the proper way is to stand high stance instead of low stance where one becomes tense. Often one even has to go into laying flat to sense the loose up. Thus, it is not a brute force training but a tuning training where one keep tuning the body until it resonance with the nature.


3, One cannot connect the Ren and Du using lower abdorment breathing by force. That is consider mis practiced.

The true practice is when the mind is quiet, the body is loose, with natural breathing one first open the Ren and store Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien, and then once the Dan Dien's Zhen Qi accumulation is strong, it will be able flow into the Du and up to the top and comes down back to the Dan dien.

However, none of the above could be done via a slight forcefull. one needs a sifu who has experience to coach one with this. Even if just cultivate to open the Ren and capable to Store Zhen Qi into Dan Dien without open up the Du, one will feel the different in health obviously.

So, without Baisi to some one who has that kung fu attainment, one will not be able to attain the state.


4, Kua, hip and feets and spine are not easy to be loosen up and handle. Each of these area has a different key to handle. so it cannot be brute force. also, when one is breathing the spine is also sync with the breathing, so nothing is hold fix but everything is sync and align within a range. that is the key.


5, according to the Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit, after the above is attained when one do the SLT the flow of Qi in the medirians will surface. IE: biu jee will cause the 3 ying hands medirians to flow, lap sao will cause the 3 yang hands medirians to flow. fook sau will cause the 3 ying medirians to flow, wu sau will cause the 3 yang medirians to flow.



Appreciate it Hendrik. Not exactly just shrinking down to a fist width and waiting for the pain to leave is it? If it's not natural, then it's probably not the right way to do it. Another one I've heard before is "sinking" (boy that word can stir things up too) bringing the body weight down to make the torso "light". But in my experience, this doesn't help unite the upper and lower halves and causes one to be heavy. Definitely need to baisi to someone to learn about connecting the two main channels, something that can't be explained here. I'm still trying to get there but haven't done it yet. I try to be as natural as possible, but you know, sometimes it's hard to stop yourself from worrying about doing things right :p Especially the breathing part, since its so critical.

A question for all of us, how can we verify that our kua, hip, feet and spine are loosened? There are certain exercises I do to loosen the body but would like to know how we can verify with YJKYM? In terms of which muscle groups are utilized or perhaps the range of motion?

[t_niehoff]

From an outsider's (non-WCK) perspective.

The amount of sheer arrogance/ego in this thread is so absolutely ridiculous, even beyond some of the worst CLF flame wars I've seen/read/been-in.

So much that it's hilarious.

I've disagreed/argued/flamed Hendrik in the past multiple times but being very honest this is one time where I believe he is just being honest and people are getting very ummm... insecure and upset? LOL

I believe EricH's response sort of sums it up -- and reflects the attitude of a great many in WCK -- that is, he violently ("stop ramming Yik Kam WCK or Emei down our throats") takes exception to Hendrik's position that sink, rise, swallow, spit is in all WCK. Nor does it matter that I point out that these things are explicit in some of YM, in YKS, in Gu Lao, etc. HE hasn't learned it, HIS teacher hasn't taught it to him, and of course therefore everyone is wrong but his teacher and him (because his teacher, of course, has the REAL WCK). Completely ego-centric and lineage-centric. Then, it is pointed out by his sihing in the same lineage that, well, yes, they have it too. Oops. Well, when you won't open your eyes and look outside your own little lineage and/or take it that your teacher may not know everything, when you won't look at the larger picture of WCK, that is what happens: you don't learn.

I don't agree with everything pertaining to Hendrik's POV. And I don't like it that he pushes his theory of WCK origin as fact when it is not fact (he has a plausible theory based on what we do know but that isn't fact, and there are some significant issues with it IMO).

[duende]

From an outsider's (non-WCK) perspective.

The amount of sheer arrogance/ego in this thread is so absolutely ridiculous, even beyond some of the worst CLF flame wars I've seen/read/been-in.

So much that it's hilarious.

I've disagreed/argued/flamed Hendrik in the past multiple times but being very honest this is one time where I believe he is just being honest and people are getting very ummm... insecure and upset? LOL

WRONG

It not just one post or one thread for that matter, but a long history of passive-aggressive behavior that can only be described as OCD meets Internet stalking.

Besides he already erased the original thread. What you see here is just Hendrick's edited version.

[Hendrik]

with the crane /acute angle and snake/continuous flow fusion signature



CK Set from Chan Wah lineage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobs0Kh-f7I&feature=related

SLT 108 point set from Cho family/ Nga Wu/ Yik Kam WCK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8&feature=related


So does the following with the signature from Senior Fung

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoewPhwnvIs&feature=related

[Wayfaring]

I believe EricH's response sort of sums it up -- and reflects the attitude of a great many in WCK -- that is, he violently ("stop ramming Yik Kam WCK or Emei down our throats") takes exception to Hendrik's position that sink, rise, swallow, spit is in all WCK. Nor does it matter that I point out that these things are explicit in some of YM, in YKS, in Gu Lao, etc. HE hasn't learned it, HIS teacher hasn't taught it to him, and of course therefore everyone is wrong but his teacher and him (because his teacher, of course, has the REAL WCK). Completely ego-centric and lineage-centric. Then, it is pointed out by his sihing in the same lineage that, well, yes, they have it too. Oops. Well, when you won't open your eyes and look outside your own little lineage and/or take it that your teacher may not know everything, when you won't look at the larger picture of WCK, that is what happens: you don't learn.

I don't believe people in the HFY lineage take the position that sink, rise, swallow and spit are not in WCK - they certainly are in HFY in more areas and ways than are discussed here.

I believe what people in the HFY lineage take as a position is that sink, rise, swallow and spit are not energies or concepts that are unique to Emei 12 or crane, and that they are not Hendrik's magic signature proving his Yik Kam lineage is the real WCK and everyone else's is not.

Certainly the fighting concepts they entail are not unique. I could show you spit and swallow in boxing and MT training common techniques. And rise / sink. For example, have you ever heard the boxing term "sitting down on your punches" to produce power? That is nothing more than sink applied. Cupping your hand to block a jab - that's swallow.

So now boxing and MT have the "genuine WCK signature from 1800's that are incontrovertible evidence".

We need to get out there and inform all the MT kru of this. I'm sure they're going to want to know that in reality, Hendrik is their daddy. :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

WRONG

It not just one post or one thread for that matter, but a long history of passive-aggressive behavior that can only be described as OCD meets Internet stalking.

Besides he already erased the original thread. What you see here is just Hendrick's edited version.

That's why I don't like responding to Hendrik's philosophical question threads. They go on and on and then when anything takes a turn he doesn't like he deletes them.

And he doesn't engage much on other people's threads where he doesn't have that control.

[Hendrik]

That's why I don't like responding to Hendrik's philosophical question threads. They go on and on and then when anything takes a turn he doesn't like he deletes them.

And he doesn't engage much on other people's threads where he doesn't have that control.


You dont have to listen and read my posts if you dont like it.

No one stop you from posting the theory and concept of your WCK lineage...etc.

In fact, this is an open forum and the Question is why WCK WCK. Why dont you share with us your view? instead of get stuck on what you dont like, keep complaining and keeping get stuck, share with us what you like.

Show us your theory or your lineage and why it is WCK WCK? I am sure every one is open to understand you. I am open, convert me serious. Show us you clips and theories....etc so we could trace it and check it out and consider...etc.



and if you like to begin,
You can start with Tan Sau Ng, What type of Uniqueness Tan Sau Ng bring into WCK if you believe Tan Sau Ng create WCK. or Yat Chan or Which Shao Lin or Which secrete society. what is the uniqueness and where is the source of that DNA .....etc. how could it be traced? what component of this person or style bring could be seen across other WCK lineages?


After this post to encourage you to post your theory, philosophy, evidents, signature from your own observation or your lineage. to answer why WCK is WCK;
If you dont like to post and share, then I take it you just dont have anything to say.

You have chances as anyone of us but if you dont use it then that is your choice.


BTW. Why WCK is WCK it is not a philosophical question it is totally physical question to justify the value of martial art style.

[theo]

clip of mai gei wong wing chun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGbSvl68RE

traces from the YKS and SN lineages. the snake smoothness and crane snap are very clear here

[Wayfaring]

BTW. Why WCK is WCK it is not a philosophical question it is totally physical question to justify the value of martial art style.

Not to you it isn't. To you "physical question" means philosophizing about signatures. Not testing your art in a genuine live skilled fighting environment.

[Hendrik]

Not to you it isn't. To you "physical question" means philosophizing about signatures. Not testing your art in a genuine live skilled fighting environment.

1,
it is a physical questions because " ALL legitimate old timer WCNER lineage from the RED BOAT Opera" has the same signature.

As for "Not testing your art in a genuine live skilled fighting environment." Since what I have present is a common elements to All legitimate WCK from the red boat, For EXample, existed within Sifu Gary Lam and Allen Orr's WCK Clip. Please tell me if sifu like Gary Lam and sifu Allen Orr are not genuine live skilled expert , and who in you lineage/theory will be the so called genuine live skilled expert? You? Name a name please.


2,
Do you have something to share on Why WCK is WCK or not?

please share with us how and who within your view , philosophy, concept, theory is tested with genuine live skilled fighting environment.

Could your find your philosophy , concept, theory..... in most of the WCK lineage ?




3,
Again, critics and against something doesnt make what you critics and against false.

Unless you tell others what is your theory, philosophy....traceable evidence....etc. you still doesnt have anything. So be smart, tell others your theory, philosophy.... instead of keep critics and against which do nothing to tell your story.


This will be my last post to encourage you to PRESENT to the world what you think Why WCK is WCK. You were giving chance again and again, no one to blame if other post their view and theory, and you dont post.

[Hendrik]

clip of mai gei wong wing chun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGbSvl68RE

traces from the YKS and SN lineages. the snake smoothness and crane snap are very clear here


The following is from Sum Nung's son, take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y


how about GM Yip Man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxMLp8TXno


Again, why is the White Crane localization snap is very important? because in reality of figthing not every strike needs and could be whole body strike...

Snap needs to be there to cover different applications cases from speed needed to if the body structure is Jamb by the opponents. Thus, WCK without the Snap power is not a complete WCK.

[Wayfaring]

1,
it is a physical questions because " ALL legitimate old timer WCNER lineage from the RED BOAT Opera" has the same signature.

As for "Not testing your art in a genuine live skilled fighting environment." Since what I have present is a common elements to All legitimate WCK from the red boat, For EXample, existed within Sifu Gary Lam and Allen Orr's WCK Clip. Please tell me if sifu like Gary Lam and sifu Allen Orr are not genuine live skilled expert , and who in you lineage/theory will be the so called genuine live skilled expert? You? Name a name please.


2,
Do you have something to share on Why WCK is WCK or not?

please share with us how and who within your view , philosophy, concept, theory is tested with genuine live skilled fighting environment.

Could your find your philosophy , concept, theory..... in most of the WCK lineage ?




3,
Again, critics and against something doesnt make what you critics and against false.

Unless you tell others what is your theory, philosophy....traceable evidence....etc. you still doesnt have anything. So be smart, tell others your theory, philosophy.... instead of keep critics and against which do nothing to tell your story.


This will be my last post to encourage you to PRESENT to the world what you think Why WCK is WCK. You were giving chance again and again, no one to blame if other post their view and theory, and you dont post.

I responded here:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58686

Please feel free to continue the discussion. I will not waste further time on a thread you can delete as you did the previous discussion we had on this.

[Hendrik]

I responded here:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58686

Please feel free to continue the discussion. I will not waste further time on a thread you can delete as you did the previous discussion we had on this.


You sure are free to start you own discussion thread. However, this thread is fine with me and others in fact it has been more then 100 response and none got delete and more people join in, so thanks but no thanks, I am not interested in joining you.

[Eric_H]

I believe EricH's response sort of sums it up -- and reflects the attitude of a great many in WCK -- that is, he violently ("stop ramming Yik Kam WCK or Emei down our throats") takes exception to Hendrik's position that sink, rise, swallow, spit is in all WCK. Nor does it matter that I point out that these things are explicit in some of YM, in YKS, in Gu Lao, etc. HE hasn't learned it, HIS teacher hasn't taught it to him, and of course therefore everyone is wrong but his teacher and him (because his teacher, of course, has the REAL WCK). Completely ego-centric and lineage-centric. Then, it is pointed out by his sihing in the same lineage that, well, yes, they have it too. Oops. Well, when you won't open your eyes and look outside your own little lineage and/or take it that your teacher may not know everything, when you won't look at the larger picture of WCK, that is what happens: you don't learn.

I don't agree with everything pertaining to Hendrik's POV. And I don't like it that he pushes his theory of WCK origin as fact when it is not fact (he has a plausible theory based on what we do know but that isn't fact, and there are some significant issues with it IMO).

Terence,

To make clear my point, is that swallow sink spit, suck, blow or whatever the hell you choose call it doesn't point to the origins of WCK any more than a flaming bag of dog turd. Hendrik's on and on about how it points to O-mei and whatever else.

The FACT of the mater is that Yik Kam blended beginning WCK with O-mei and white crane.
The FACT is that other Cho Ga people have pointed Hendrik as being unqualified to speak about their lineage.
The FACT is that Wong Wa Bo lineages use Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut Sao Jik Chung as their standard terminology points out that the same technology exists but is described differently in mainstream WCK.

As I have stated from the beginning, you can certainly use those terms to describe motions in WCK, but they are not necessarily part of the signature of the kuen kuit. Heck, even your own Sifu pointed out the kuit on this very thread. And for what it's worth I've studied more than 1 WC lineage, my voice is my own not any of my Sifu's or lineages past or present. I don't need to tattoo anyone's name on my back to show where I come from.

You wanna talk about Ego-Centric? Hendrik is your prime example, he's not the gatekeeper or keymaster or whatever of any secret original magical O-mei WCK training. But I'm sure he'll tell you otherwise. Why else would he delete threads and cry about it when it doesn't go his way?

[Wayfaring]

You sure are free to start you own discussion thread. However, this thread is fine with me and others in fact it has been more then 100 response and none got delete and more people join in, so thanks but no thanks, I am not interested in joining you.

So do I take this as your commitment to promise not to delete this thread?

[kung fu fighter]

This Cho Ga linage is definately not the wing chun power signature, looks more like choy lay fut http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related

[Hendrik]

this is definately not the wing chun power signature, looks more like choy lay fut http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related

First I am not the person who post the clip.




The following has evolved too by WCK uniqueness as shown in the previous posts from different WCK lineages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related





it is a fact that,
Within Cho family there are different arts practiced,

after the past 6 generations of evolution,
there is Cho Gar Kuen, There is Cho Gar Wing Chun Kuen, There is Cho Gar Weng Chun.etc.
one needs to know which is which. and not taken as all elderly are doing the same art.

It is just a Facts of evolution after 150 years. these things exist and Cho Gar members has to face it.

[t_niehoff]

I don't believe people in the HFY lineage take the position that sink, rise, swallow and spit are not in WCK - they certainly are in HFY in more areas and ways than are discussed here.


Well, look back at Eric's post where he did say that these things were not part of WCK.



I believe what people in the HFY lineage take as a position is that sink, rise, swallow and spit are not energies or concepts that are unique to Emei 12 or crane, and that they are not Hendrik's magic signature proving his Yik Kam lineage is the real WCK and everyone else's is not.


Hendrik has never - as far as I know - said this was unique to Yi Kam, but how they were used was unique to WCK. My understanding is that Hendrik is saying that if you look across legit lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Yik Kam to etc. you will see the same commonality (the same "uniqueness").

On the other hand, if you do not have this aspect in your WCK, then you are lacking a core essential -- like missing the chum kiu.



Certainly the fighting concepts they entail are not unique. I could show you spit and swallow in boxing and MT training common techniques. And rise / sink. For example, have you ever heard the boxing term "sitting down on your punches" to produce power? That is nothing more than sink applied. Cupping your hand to block a jab - that's swallow.


This is the type of thinking that causes much confusion IMO. You are not looking at these terms -- which you mistake for concepts -- from a WCK perspective but from a generic perspective. But they aren't generic. Although different arts often use the same terms, sometimes even the same kuit, they often mean very different things. You have to look at them from the art's perspective.



So now boxing and MT have the "genuine WCK signature from 1800's that are incontrovertible evidence".


See, this is what that type of thinking leads to.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik has never - as far as I know - said this was unique to Yi Kam, but how they were used was unique to WCK. My understanding is that Hendrik is saying that if you look across legit lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Yik Kam to etc. you will see the same commonality (the same "uniqueness").

On the other hand, if you do not have this aspect in your WCK, then you are lacking a core essential -- like missing the chum kiu.

.


Yup, that is accurate. it is Yik Kam independent but Legit WCK linages dependent.

At the end of the day, one needs to face what core essential one is missing disregard of which lineages one is from.

[kung fu fighter]

This Cho guy defintately has wck power signature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH5V5wjFAcI

[Hendrik]

This Cho guy defintately has wck power signature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH5V5wjFAcI


As I have told you on the previous post on the top, there are many different art practice within the Cho Gar. So, there is no surprise.


Also do a search and read my previous posts in this forum on this issues.

[kung fu fighter]

I think you are confused by terminology. You have something that YOU perhaps call "snake power" and think think this is what Hendrik is referring to. It isn't. If you can do it at "long bridge range" then it isn't the method Hendrik is referring to. It requires short bridge and close body.

My definition of long bridge is when the arm is extended but the elbow is still bent, not fully straightend/locked.

For short bridge, it can be as close as body to body contact. or with the elbow bent about 90 degrees and positioned very close to the rib-cage/floating ribs

when doing the snake power generation, I can transition from short bridge to long bridge and vice versa back and forth when appropreate using swallow and spit, and rising and sinking while spiralling around the opponent's bridge. or just stay in one of the two ranges, and work from there depending on the situation. Similar to the way how kulo Pien san WCK gate keeper does it in this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBmokwsTm0

Terrence or Hendrik am I still confused by terminology:)

[Hendrik]

My definition of long bridge is when the arm is extended but the elbow is still bent, not fully straightend/locked.

For short bridge, it can be as close as body to body contact. or with the elbow bent about 90 degrees and positioned very close to the rib-cage/floating ribs

when doing the snake power generation, I can transition from short bridge to long bridge and vice versa back and forth when appropreate using swallow and spit, and rising and sinking while spiralling around the opponent's bridge. or just stay in one of the two ranges, and work from there depending on the situation. Similar to the way how kulo Pien san WCK gate keeper does it in this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBmokwsTm0

Terrence or Hendrik am I still confused by terminology:)


Whatever it is if you have the kung fu you have, if you dont you dont.


Thanks for the clip.

Crane and snake signature in power generation and application strategy are WCK's uniqueness that cannot be ignored. It is a done deal century ago.

[kung fu fighter]

Whatever it is if you have the kung fu you have, if you dont you dont.


Thanks for the clip.

Crane and snake signature in power generation and application strategy are WCK's uniqueness that cannot be ignored. It is a done deal century ago.


Thanks for the reply Hendrik,

Based on my discription above would you say I have the snake slide signature power generation?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the reply Hendrik,

Based on my discription above would you say I have the snake slide signature power generation?

Just do yourself a favour

Who do you learn it from which Old timer WCner sifu? and if you learn from him, you need to trust him instead of asking me. if you have never learn from an Old timer WCner sifu get one to verify it for you.

[Wayfaring]

Well, look back at Eric's post where he did say that these things were not part of WCK.

Eric is well aware of the energies present in HFY WCK.



Hendrik has never - as far as I know - said this was unique to Yi Kam, but how they were used was unique to WCK. My understanding is that Hendrik is saying that if you look across legit lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Yik Kam to etc. you will see the same commonality (the same "uniqueness").

What Hendrik has done is to extrapolate what is in Yik Kam, and say that these are the component in all legitimate WCK lineages. And he's full of crap.



On the other hand, if you do not have this aspect in your WCK, then you are lacking a core essential -- like missing the chum kiu.

No, no you are not. If there are other concepts that cover these elements and they are trained functionally then that's ridiculous. MT has elements in their training where their fighters display these components. So you're saying they are lacking a core essential of training to fight?



This is the type of thinking that causes much confusion IMO. You are not looking at these terms -- which you mistake for concepts -- from a WCK perspective but from a generic perspective. But they aren't generic. Although different arts often use the same terms, sometimes even the same kuit, they often mean very different things. You have to look at them from the art's perspective.

The thing that causes confusion is someone spouting off about the specific terms in their family and that they are "core fundmentals" that if they are not there means it's not WCK.

I am not mistaking terms for concepts. Yes, those 4 energies are fundamental to training fighting skill. I know very much different families looking at the same kuit don't mean the same thing by it. That's why a great number of WCK practitioners have no forward energy or intent in their bridge.



See, this is what that type of thinking leads to.

Yes. It leads to the lack of acceptance of Hendrik's little WCK club on KFO.

[theo]

check this one out another SLT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFT2JO_sMJk&videos=TCEbmTa-Pss&feature=BF

check out the smooth finger and wrist movements in the beginning and throughout when huen sao is performed, along with the explosive energy in other movements

[theo]

Eric is well aware of the energies present in HFY WCK.


What Hendrik has done is to extrapolate what is in Yik Kam, and say that these are the component in all legitimate WCK lineages. And he's full of crap.


No, no you are not. If there are other concepts that cover these elements and they are trained functionally then that's ridiculous. MT has elements in their training where their fighters display these components. So you're saying they are lacking a core essential of training to fight?


The thing that causes confusion is someone spouting off about the specific terms in their family and that they are "core fundmentals" that if they are not there means it's not WCK.

I am not mistaking terms for concepts. Yes, those 4 energies are fundamental to training fighting skill. I know very much different families looking at the same kuit don't mean the same thing by it. That's why a great number of WCK practitioners have no forward energy or intent in their bridge.



Yes. It leads to the lack of acceptance of Hendrik's little WCK club on KFO.

nobody's saying that lacking the WCK essentials means that they cannot fight, such as MT or other arts. all arts have their own uniqueness, which is what makes them that specific art. different training and different power generation techniques affect different application strategy. this seems straightforward doesn't it? we can't say WCK is different from CLF if we cannot say why. naming some traits such as close body emphasis, YJKYM, etc doesn't do it because other arts have those concepts. this topic is addressing what makes WCK WCK. there are certain identifiable signatures addressed in previous posts that make WCK different from other arts. if we can't identify what makes WCK WCK, then how are we to differentiate it from other arts such as taiji, white crane, etc. that may contain similar concepts? so if one feels something in the previous posts is not unique to WCK or if something was left out, then let's hear about it. but if make any kinds of claims, then we should also present some proof or evidence to support our claims. some of the clips posted before, one can see the snake and crane elements that have been fused to create the unique energy of WCK. i think some of us are getting caught up in refuting the emei connection as the source of the Snake, but the point is to ask if what we are training has that element, not so much where it came from

[Hendrik]

i think some of us are getting caught up in refuting the emei connection as the source of the Snake, but the point is to ask if what we are training has that element, not so much where it came from


Yup, as I mention in my previous post, I even careless where it is from, the bottom line is knowing the uniqueness signature.

Also, it is just years ago in the same forum some caught up in refuting the White Crane of Fujian connection as the source of the Crane. However, facts are facts now we know White Crane from Fujian indeed is a source.


The ancestors of the YKS, Koo Lo, Yip Man, Snake and Crane, Yik Kam lineages have said the Crane and snake signature. And they are telling the truth.




so if one feels something in the previous posts is not unique to WCK or if something was left out, then let's hear about it. but if make any kinds of claims, then we should also present some proof or evidence to support our claims.

I agree.
That is I always propose, encourage other to do, I am open to hear differences.

Keeping critics and speculate on what one dont like is not the same with tell one's own research if own has the research to tell.

keeping going off the topic just to express one's dislike is wasting energy.

[Hendrik]

Yes. It leads to the lack of acceptance of Hendrik's little WCK club on KFO.


It is certainly a little WCK club, but is it not on KFO but from Koolo to Shun De, from Fut San to LA, from HongKong to England, from Singapore to Boston. and it is not Hendrik's but belongs to all the Red Boat Legitimate WCK ancestors and WCners.

I dont know what type of TCMA or mmA you are practicing however you sure doesnt seem to belong to this club. so why complain?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1048700]

The ancestors of the YKS, Koo Lo, Yip Man, Snake and Crane, Yik Kam lineages have said the Crane and snake signature. And they are telling the truth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't do YKS, Koo Lo or Yik Kam....just one pretty mainline Yip Man wing chun.
The snake and crane as metaphors can be useful in understanding some views on structure and energy.

But several problems in communication emerge:
1.What the metaphors point towards are important but not sufficient for giving a complete picture of decent wing chun IMO.

2. with the noise on the kfo forum it's a mad hatters tea party and informative clarifications are unlikely or rare.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Now look back at the first post i post and see if what we discuss makes sense and useful to as a tool to know WCK.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1046481&postcount=1


also

The following are White Crane related style some of the move might looks WCK but they are different style if one looks closely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spNNcNkCzhA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HZ-DkPOA5A

[Hendrik]

I don't do YKS, Koo Lo or Yik Kam....just one pretty mainline Yip Man wing chun.
The snake and crane as metaphors can be useful in understanding some views on structure and energy..



When the forest turns to jade
And the stories that we've made.
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuYz2muVw0

[Vajramusti]

nice music- yo yo ma no less!! Yim wing chun forever!
Joy Chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

It is certainly a little WCK club, but is it not on KFO but from Koolo to Shun De, from Fut San to LA, from HongKong to England, from Singapore to Boston. and it is not Hendrik's but belongs to all the Red Boat Legitimate WCK ancestors and WCners.

No, no your little club consists of you, Robert + students, and a couple of other people. Neither Koolo, Shun De, Fut San, or LA practitioners of WCK, or those in Hong Kong or England have appointed you their spokesperson.

Despite your attempts at promoting the propoganda that your views belong to all Red Boat Legitimate WCK ancestor and WCners, it simply is not true.

Robert Chu even corrected you on this thread. He pointed to the kuen kuit phrasing and away from your 4 energies description.



I dont know what type of TCMA or mmA you are practicing however you sure doesnt seem to belong to this club. so why complain?

You don't belong to any club that practices live testing of WCK, so why are you complaining about me not being in your club?

[Hendrik]

I always encourage others to post their reasons and evidence so that everyone including me could learn with open mind and open heart.

The topic of this thread is Why WCK WCK.

Instead of some one's irrational reaction due to his own subjective personal mind set.



No, no your little club consists of you, Robert + students, and a couple of other people. Neither Koolo, Shun De, Fut San, or LA practitioners of WCK, or those in Hong Kong or England have appointed you their spokesperson.....

[Wayfaring]

I always encourage others to post their reasons and evidence so that everyone including me could learn with open mind and open heart.

The topic of this thread is Why WCK WCK.

Instead of some one's irrational reaction due to his own subjective personal mind set.

I always encourage others to examine both sides of an argument. You can see more reasoning on the thread I started, where it will be preserved as a dissenting opinion to yours without danger of being deleted, as the posts with dissenting opinions have been in the past.

Of course, calling someone names like irrational is one approach to discussion and argument.

[Hendrik]

I always encourage others to examine both sides of an argument. You can see more reasoning on the thread I started, where it will be preserved as a dissenting opinion to yours without danger of being deleted, as the posts with dissenting opinions have been in the past.

Of course, calling someone names like irrational is one approach to discussion and argument.


Do you have anything to share on Why WCK is WCK compare with other Southern TCMA ?

[Wayfaring]

Do you have anything to share on Why WCK is WCK compare with other Southern TCMA ?

Sure. I alluded to this on the other thread. One of the most basic ways WCK is WCK as opposed to all the other Southern TCMA like:

Lohan
Northern Longfist
5 Animals
Snake
Crane
Tiger
Monkey
Dragon
Hung Gar
Mantis
etc.

is that it is NOT based upon animal forms and energies, but upon human structure of a person on two feet with two eyes, ears, arms, feet, fists.

Although some of the shapes may LOOK SIMILAR, and the energies may be VAGUELY SIMILAR, WCK is based upon efficiency for a HUMAN.

Even the legend of Yim Wing Chun shows you that if you have eyes and ears open to listen to it.

A small woman developing a system that can beat a larger and more athletic opponent. How can this happen? Through EFFICIENCY.

Can a smaller snake eat a bigger snake? Can a smaller crane overcome a larger crane? NO. In all of the animal kingdom, the larger rules the smaller. Throughout the food chain.

How can you break this cycle? Through EFFICIENCY - be more compact, be in the right place at the right time with the right energies FOR YOUR STRUCTURE - A HUMAN.

That's where centerline and sticking come in. By being INSIDE the POWER GENERATION dynamics of the larger wheels. By controlling your opponent from a bridge. Birds and reptiles do not move like that.

Geez. Snakes and Cranes. Bird goes in the fryer for my dinner. Snakes get killed by a rock from 10 feet away and become my wallet. You want to fight like one of those - slide step and slither away !!!!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

[theo]

Sure. I alluded to this on the other thread. One of the most basic ways WCK is WCK as opposed to all the other Southern TCMA like:

Lohan
Northern Longfist
5 Animals
Snake
Crane
Tiger
Monkey
Dragon
Hung Gar
Mantis
etc.

is that it is NOT based upon animal forms and energies, but upon human structure of a person on two feet with two eyes, ears, arms, feet, fists.

Although some of the shapes may LOOK SIMILAR, and the energies may be VAGUELY SIMILAR, WCK is based upon efficiency for a HUMAN.

Even the legend of Yim Wing Chun shows you that if you have eyes and ears open to listen to it.

A small woman developing a system that can beat a larger and more athletic opponent. How can this happen? Through EFFICIENCY.

Can a smaller snake eat a bigger snake? Can a smaller crane overcome a larger crane? NO. In all of the animal kingdom, the larger rules the smaller. Throughout the food chain.

How can you break this cycle? Through EFFICIENCY - be more compact, be in the right place at the right time with the right energies FOR YOUR STRUCTURE - A HUMAN.

That's where centerline and sticking come in. By being INSIDE the POWER GENERATION dynamics of the larger wheels. By controlling your opponent from a bridge. Birds and reptiles do not move like that.

Geez. Snakes and Cranes. Bird goes in the fryer for my dinner. Snakes get killed by a rock from 10 feet away and become my wallet. You want to fight like one of those - slide step and slither away !!!!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

The snake and crane concepts mentioned here have nothing to do with the the shaolin type of snake art that mimcs an animal. The snake here is referring to the emei snake. The centerline you mentioned comes from crane. Crane and emei snake existed well before wck was created. That is what hendrik is referring to I believe. Certain wck structures such as tan sau also have similar structure in older crane. All arts strive to be efficient, it is the wck power generation that determines its application strategy.

[JPinAZ]

Sure. I alluded to this on the other thread. One of the most basic ways WCK is WCK as opposed to all the other Southern TCMA like:
..........
is that it is NOT based upon animal forms and energies, but upon human structure of a person on two feet with two eyes, ears, arms, feet, fists.

Although some of the shapes may LOOK SIMILAR, and the energies may be VAGUELY SIMILAR, WCK is based upon efficiency for a HUMAN.


Great point!!


Geez. Snakes and Cranes. Bird goes in the fryer for my dinner. Snakes get killed by a rock from 10 feet away and become my wallet. You want to fight like one of those - slide step and slither away !!!!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

lol, that's some funny sh!t :)

While it is true, that Wing Chun does have some 'shapes' that resemble 'shapes' from snake and crane, that doesn't mean it is birthed from emei snake or crane kung fu no matter what he or 'theo' "Believe" (there are also dragon signatures too, but Hendrik will probably argue against that since it's not in his MMA style, mis-match YK WC).

WC isn't about fighting like an animal - even if some of it's 'shapes' may resemble those of animal fighting styles - it's about fighting like a human. That is why we have very significant centerline concepts - it tells us not to bend, twist, etc like animals do, but rather, stand upright and fight like, well, a human! Anything else is moving away from our original nature and trying to be something we are not!

[JPinAZ]

The centerline you mentioned comes from crane. Crane and emei snake existed well before wck was created.

Ok bob, or theo, or whoever you are - please share with us your understanding of the centerline as dave/wayfaring was referring to. If you are going to make statements based on his idea of centerline coming from snake, then you should be able to describe exactly what dave is talking about since you seem to know so much :)
I ask this because Dave and I trained the same lineage of WC, and the centerline concept as I understand it does not come from crane. It comes from principles based on body alignment, gravity and facing toward our opponent. It goes deeper than that, but that's a beginning. It has nothing to do with some animal style
Of course Dave and I may have different levels of understanding, but I think I understand where dave is coming from more than you having similar background to him, and it does NOT come from any crane system YOU think it does.
What you believe to be true for your version or adaption of WC doesn't necessarily hold true for ALL WC.


That is what hendrik is referring to I believe. Certain wck structures such as tan sau also have similar structure in older crane.

So what? What does tan sau looking like some structure in crane have to do with why WCK is WCK? My wc has a dragon claw technique/energy in a section of our SNT, that doesn't mean it is dragon style WC kung fu, nor really have anything to do with it.
You know what it means? That in certain applications, that is the correct energy to use for a given times/space in a fight. Nothing about animal fighting shapes, postures or 'signatures'. Just what is the best tool based on the situation, facing, distnace from opponent and energy on the bridge. That's WCK!
Crane is crane, dragon style is dragon style and WCK is WCK, why mix it all up?


All arts strive to be efficient, it is the wck power generation that determines its application strategy.

This doesn't make any sense to me. What are you talking about?

[Hendrik]

So what? What does tan sau looking like some structure in crane have to do with why WCK is WCK? My wc has a dragon claw technique/energy in a section of our SNT, that doesn't mean it is dragon style WC kung fu, nor really have anything to do with it.

You know what it means? That in certain applications, that is the correct energy to use for a given times/space in a fight.

Nothing about animal fighting shapes, postures or 'signatures'.

Just what is the best tool based on the situation, facing, distnace from opponent and energy on the bridge. That's WCK!

Crane is crane, dragon style is dragon style and WCK is WCK, why mix it all up?


This doesn't make any sense to me. What are you talking about?

I suggest,
Go back and re read the previous posts of this thread with a "read to seek understand mind" and make sure you understand what was discussed.

[chusauli]

No, no your little club consists of you, Robert + students, and a couple of other people. Neither Koolo, Shun De, Fut San, or LA practitioners of WCK, or those in Hong Kong or England have appointed you their spokesperson.

Despite your attempts at promoting the propoganda that your views belong to all Red Boat Legitimate WCK ancestor and WCners, it simply is not true.

Robert Chu even corrected you on this thread. He pointed to the kuen kuit phrasing and away from your 4 energies description.



You don't belong to any club that practices live testing of WCK, so why are you complaining about me not being in your club?

FWIW, I did not correct Hendrik at all.

Structure = Six directional power (of which Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit, are a part of), as well as the "7 stars/joints" - if you analyze that, this is Crane and Snake signatures....

Lai Lou Hui Soong = Snake, but can be crane...

Lut Sao/Fung Lat Jik Chung = Crane, but can be snake...

[Hendrik]

4, Thus the power generation and application strategy of a Style, IE WCK or Hung gar, are like the two wings of a bird. both are supporting each others. and very specific.

IE: a water hand shape of White Crane is using Flipping shock power to shock and open the middle door in the same time attack the center line. A tan of WCK doesnt do as the White Crane. The flipping Shock power is called Kang or hard power type in TCMA. While WCK is using Tracking/ guiding/ leading which is called Rou or soft power type in TCMA. Thus, the White Crane is called Kang Fatt or hard method since it is using Kang Jin. The WCK is called Rou Fatt or soft method since it is using Rou Jin.

Thus, WCK's Tan is not White Crane' water shape hand. this is because it has the Hand shape of the Water shape hand but with the Emei "snake" sliding in/ sticking power to Tract/guide/lead. It is not Emei's "snake" either because it is execute reference to the White Crane's center line capturing concept.

if one using the White crane flip shock in WCK's application one will end up stagnated and cannot go close body. if one using the WCK slide in White Crane's application one will end up get hit....


Continuous on what I have post above.

So, these stuffs are very specific when in comes to TCMA. and furthermore is the condition of the body or doing the set.

If SLT/SNT is practiced with the snake as based then the Crane snap will be not a problem. if SLt/SNT is practiced with the crane as based then the snake slide will be an issue going forward. The reason is the Snake is activating more degree of freedom then the Crane. So the Snake can emulate Crane and Crane has trouble to emulate snake. That is just a reality for conditioning.


also, doing a search in TCMA history and architecture, we know White Crane of Fujian and Emei' 12 Zhuang stand out for these type of power generation, application strategy, and conditioning.
That is a fact with evidence for past 700 years of TCMA development.

So, if we claim WCK is from Wudang then we have to be able to do a search and see if the TCMA history and architecutre support this claim.

IE. if we claim WCK is from Shao Lin and Anti-Qing secret society. Then we need to do a search for evidence of what type of architecture and historic character. since there are atleast 3 shao lin exist. One is from Song San, one is Fujian, and one is emei.... and each of them has their own signature in their martial art. There is no room for generazation when it comes to TCMA style because the uniqueness is where their strength is.

As in White Crane of Fujian's case, we know from min 1600 to 1850, the students of White Crane of Fuian were very active in secret society. from the founder Fang Chi-Niang herself in 1600 to supporting of Taiping heavenly kingdom uprising 1850 to Lee Man Mau the red boat opera actor as was told. So, these anti qing and the art of these people really exist and traceable.

Emei is also traceable where anyone who is interested in it can Visit the Beijing Museum to check out the Emei's lotus cannon...



So, it is all about what is the style is about not everything is the same that is forsure. also it is not just about curriculum there is meaning and significant behind the curriculum and standard or level of attaiment or quality needed to be meet..... so a holistic view of an art one is practicing is very important. we just cant define and interprate the art as we likes it. sure one can evolve it after one master the art and become one's own version as a usual practice, IE Chen, Yang, Wu.... different of taiji....

[Hendrik]

FWIW, I did not correct Hendrik at all.

Structure = Six directional power (of which Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit, are a part of), as well as the "7 stars/joints" - if you analyze that, this is Crane and Snake signatures....

Lai Lou Hui Soong = Snake, but can be crane...

Lut Sao/Fung Lat Jik Chung = Crane, but can be snake...



Robert,

Yup. If one go beyond the shape then one will see.

[JPinAZ]

I suggest,
Go back and re read the previous posts of this thread with a "read to seek understand mind" and make sure you understand what was discussed.

You don't need to tell me to read anything - I read the thread.
Besides, I wasn't speaking to you I was speaking to theo, so shut up. I'll wait for his reply, since yours doesn't tell me anything but garbage.

[Hendrik]

You don't need to tell me to read anything - I read the thread.
Besides, I wasn't speaking to you I was speaking to theo, so shut up. I'll wait for his reply, since yours doesn't tell me anything but garbage.


Hope you change for better.

[Hendrik]

4, Thus the power generation and application strategy of a Style, IE WCK or Hung gar, are like the two wings of a bird. both are supporting each others. and very specific.

IE: a water hand shape of White Crane is using Flipping shock power to shock and open the middle door in the same time attack the center line. A tan of WCK doesnt do as the White Crane. The flipping Shock power is called Kang or hard power type in TCMA. While WCK is using Tracking/ guiding/ leading which is called Rou or soft power type in TCMA. Thus, the White Crane is called Kang Fatt or hard method since it is using Kang Jin. The WCK is called Rou Fatt or soft method since it is using Rou Jin.

Thus, WCK's Tan is not White Crane' water shape hand. this is because it has the Hand shape of the Water shape hand but with the Emei "snake" sliding in/ sticking power to Tract/guide/lead. It is not Emei's "snake" either because it is execute reference to the White Crane's center line capturing concept.

if one using the White crane flip shock in WCK's application one will end up stagnated and cannot go close body. if one using the WCK slide in White Crane's application one will end up get hit....

Continuous on what I have post above.

So, these stuffs are very specific when in comes to TCMA. and furthermore is the condition of the body or doing the set.

If SLT/SNT is practiced with the snake as based then the Crane snap will be not a problem. if SLt/SNT is practiced with the crane as based then the snake slide will be an issue going forward. The reason is the Snake is activating more degree of freedom then the Crane. So the Snake can emulate Crane and Crane has trouble to emulate snake. That is just a reality for conditioning.


also, doing a search in TCMA history and architecture, we know White Crane of Fujian and Emei' 12 Zhuang stand out for these type of power generation, application strategy, and conditioning.
That is a fact with evidence for past 700 years of TCMA development.

So, if we claim WCK is from Wudang then we have to be able to do a search and see if the TCMA history and architecutre support this claim.

IE. if we claim WCK is from Shao Lin and Anti-Qing secret society. Then we need to do a search for evidence of what type of architecture and historic character. since there are atleast 3 shao lin exist. One is from Song San, one is Fujian, and one is emei.... and each of them has their own signature in their martial art. There is no room for generazation when it comes to TCMA style because the uniqueness is where their strength is.

As in White Crane of Fujian's case, we know from min 1600 to 1850, the students of White Crane of Fuian were very active in secret society. from the founder Fang Chi-Niang herself in 1600 to supporting of Taiping heavenly kingdom uprising 1850 to Lee Man Mau the red boat opera actor as was told. So, these anti qing and the art of these people really exist and traceable.

Emei is also traceable where anyone who is interested in it can Visit the Beijing Museum to check out the Emei's lotus cannon...



So, it is all about what is the style is about not everything is the same that is forsure. also it is not just about curriculum there is meaning and significant behind the curriculum and standard or level of attaiment or quality needed to be meet..... so a holistic view of an art one is practicing is very important. we just cant define and interprate the art as we likes it. sure one can evolve it after one master the art and become one's own version as a usual practice, IE Chen, Yang, Wu.... different of taiji....

[Wayfaring]

FWIW, I did not correct Hendrik at all.

Structure = Six directional power (of which Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit, are a part of), as well as the "7 stars/joints" - if you analyze that, this is Crane and Snake signatures....

Lai Lou Hui Soong = Snake, but can be crane...

Lut Sao/Fung Lat Jik Chung = Crane, but can be snake...

Six directional power may be a commonality in the WCK I'm familiar with. However, I don't think "7 stars/joints" are. We use the "10 bright points".

To ask a more relevant question, WTF does it matter connecting back to the animal forms? If someone has developed their fighting skills to a higher level, does the fact that someone has the "engine" of a snake or crane but can't fight with it have any relevance at all?

Why?

[Wayfaring]

If SLT/SNT is practiced with the snake as based then the Crane snap will be not a problem. if SLt/SNT is practiced with the crane as based then the snake slide will be an issue going forward. The reason is the Snake is activating more degree of freedom then the Crane. So the Snake can emulate Crane and Crane has trouble to emulate snake. That is just a reality for conditioning.


If SLT/SNT is practiced with both snake and crane, yet you still get your @$$ kicked by a low level fighter, then what does it matter other than you look a little sillier doing it?

That is just a reality for conditioning.

[Hendrik]

If someone has developed their fighting skills to a higher level, does the fact that someone has the "engine" of a snake or crane but can't fight with it have any relevance at all?

Why?



Damo the first partiach of Shao lin was beat by some naive person until he lost his front teeth.

Damo then swallow the teeth and blood, that is the famous account of Shao Lin Damo's broken teeth swallow with blood in peace.


Why?

Any Shao lin decendent must have learn this account, arent you a Shao lin decendent?

[Hendrik]

If SLT/SNT is practiced with both snake and crane, yet you still get your @$$ kicked by a low level fighter, then what does it matter other than you look a little sillier doing it?

That is just a reality for conditioning.


You could use your mind for better things then negativity, "if", he says -she says , day dreaming and hypothetical stuffs, right?


Do you have anything to share on why WCK is WCK?

[Wayfaring]

Damo the first partiach of Shao lin was beat by some naive person until he lost his front teeth.

Damo then swallow the teeth and blood, that is the famous account of Shao Lin Damo's broken teeth swallow with blood in peace.


Why?

Any Shao lin decendent must have learn this account, arent you a Shao lin decendent?

No, I'm an American whose ancestors migrated from England / Scotland in the 1700's.

[Hendrik]

No, I'm an American whose ancestors migrated from England / Scotland in the 1700's.

Here is the Damo account.



http://www.dabase.org/bodhi.htm


According to an introduction to the The Sixth Patriarch's Sutra: (2) "Patriarch Bodhidharma went to Nan Ching where he listen to Dharma Master Shen Kuang explain the sutras....


When angry, Dharma master Shen Kuang used his heavy iron beads to level opposition. In response to Bodhidharma's question, he reddened with anger and raged like a tidal wave smashing a mountain. As he whipped out his beads, he snapped, "You are slandering the Dharma!" and cracked Bodhidharma across the mouth, knocking loose two teeth.

Bodhidharma neither moved nor spoke. He hadn't expected such a vicious reply. There is a legend about the teeth of holy men. You must not ask about the principle, however, because it is too inconceivable. The legend says that if a sage's teeth fall to the ground, it won't rain for three years. Patriarch Bodhidharma thought, "If it doesn't rain for three years, people will starve! I have come to China to save living beings, not to kill them!" So Bodhidharma did not let his teeth fall to the ground. Instead, he swallowed them and disappeared down the road . . .

[Eric_H]

Here is the Damo account.



http://www.dabase.org/bodhi.htm


According to an introduction to the The Sixth Patriarch's Sutra: (2) "Patriarch Bodhidharma went to Nan Ching where he listen to Dharma Master Shen Kuang explain the sutras....


When angry, Dharma master Shen Kuang used his heavy iron beads to level opposition. In response to Bodhidharma's question, he reddened with anger and raged like a tidal wave smashing a mountain. As he whipped out his beads, he snapped, "You are slandering the Dharma!" and cracked Bodhidharma across the mouth, knocking loose two teeth.

Bodhidharma neither moved nor spoke. He hadn't expected such a vicious reply. There is a legend about the teeth of holy men. You must not ask about the principle, however, because it is too inconceivable. The legend says that if a sage's teeth fall to the ground, it won't rain for three years. Patriarch Bodhidharma thought, "If it doesn't rain for three years, people will starve! I have come to China to save living beings, not to kill them!" So Bodhidharma did not let his teeth fall to the ground. Instead, he swallowed them and disappeared down the road . . .

What the heck does that have to do with anything about WCK? The only teeth in the discussion are yours spewing out more distractions and nonsense.

You want to discuss history? Wong Wa Bo WCK existed BEFORE Yik Kam SLT. Wong Wa Bo doesn't use snake and crane, neither does Leung Yee Tai (who also came before Yik Kam). So how can something that came later from a WC junior who admittedly never called his art WCK point to the origins of WCK? That's like a son coming before his father, is that what you're trying to have us believe?

[shawchemical]

What the heck does that have to do with anything about WCK? The only teeth in the discussion are yours spewing out more distractions and nonsense.

You want to discuss history? Wong Wa Bo WCK existed BEFORE Yik Kam SLT. Wong Wa Bo doesn't use snake and crane, neither does Leung Yee Tai (who also came before Yik Kam). So how can something that came later from a WC junior who admittedly never called his art WCK point to the origins of WCK? That's like a son coming before his father, is that what you're trying to have us believe?

It's all he has.

The origin is not important anymore. What is important is can it be used by the individual practitioner.

[Hendrik]

What the heck does that have to do with anything about WCK? The only teeth in the discussion are yours spewing out more distractions and nonsense.

You want to discuss history? Wong Wa Bo WCK existed BEFORE Yik Kam SLT. Wong Wa Bo doesn't use snake and crane, neither does Leung Yee Tai (who also came before Yik Kam). So how can something that came later from a WC junior who admittedly never called his art WCK point to the origins of WCK? That's like a son coming before his father, is that what you're trying to have us believe?


According to your logic, you are sure 100% correct. You choose your own reality and you choose your owm karma.

[Wayfaring]

You could use your mind for better things then negativity, "if", he says -she says , day dreaming and hypothetical stuffs, right?

Do you have anything to share on why WCK is WCK?

I use my mind for analyzing that which is real. I am not much of a fantasy writer, fantasy historian, or fiction writer. I'll let you cover that part. You're doing a great job.

It is not fiction that people building "engines" of "core energies" can't fight. It's the same with people training iron palm (which I have done a 3 year cycle in the past). You can train up all sorts of cool energies, but it is a different story applying them against a resisting opponent.

If you call asking questions about realism "negativity", then that explains a lot. It's "negative" to have to use martial arts for fighting. It's "negative" to think that someone who trained up the oh-so-authentic-snake-and-crane-wck-engine might not be up to a particular opponent. It's "negative" to train against resisting opposition to prepare for this effect.

As far as anything to share - yes. What I have to share is you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. Apparantly even after I answer something, you still don't know how to read it.

[Wayfaring]

According to your logic, you are sure 100% correct. You choose your own reality and you choose your owm karma.

Oh, now we are moving from "100% incontrovertible evidence" to "you choose your own reality"?

Yes, we know we are free to formulate our own opinions on WCK and history. Thanks for the huge enlightenment.

However, that's not the case here. The case is when people claim "100% incontrovertible evidence", then get really upset when someone refutes their claim.

[Wayfaring]

Here is the Damo account.



http://www.dabase.org/bodhi.htm


According to an introduction to the The Sixth Patriarch's Sutra: (2) "Patriarch Bodhidharma went to Nan Ching where he listen to Dharma Master Shen Kuang explain the sutras....


When angry, Dharma master Shen Kuang used his heavy iron beads to level opposition. In response to Bodhidharma's question, he reddened with anger and raged like a tidal wave smashing a mountain. As he whipped out his beads, he snapped, "You are slandering the Dharma!" and cracked Bodhidharma across the mouth, knocking loose two teeth.

Bodhidharma neither moved nor spoke. He hadn't expected such a vicious reply. There is a legend about the teeth of holy men. You must not ask about the principle, however, because it is too inconceivable. The legend says that if a sage's teeth fall to the ground, it won't rain for three years. Patriarch Bodhidharma thought, "If it doesn't rain for three years, people will starve! I have come to China to save living beings, not to kill them!" So Bodhidharma did not let his teeth fall to the ground. Instead, he swallowed them and disappeared down the road . . .

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cool_story_brah_cat.jpg

Now, back to the discussion at hand.

But don't let me interrupt your moment with Buddha there.

[Hendrik]

4, Thus the power generation and application strategy of a Style, IE WCK or Hung gar, are like the two wings of a bird. both are supporting each others. and very specific.

IE: a water hand shape of White Crane is using Flipping shock power to shock and open the middle door in the same time attack the center line. A tan of WCK doesnt do as the White Crane. The flipping Shock power is called Kang or hard power type in TCMA. While WCK is using Tracking/ guiding/ leading which is called Rou or soft power type in TCMA. Thus, the White Crane is called Kang Fatt or hard method since it is using Kang Jin. The WCK is called Rou Fatt or soft method since it is using Rou Jin.

Thus, WCK's Tan is not White Crane' water shape hand. this is because it has the Hand shape of the Water shape hand but with the Emei "snake" sliding in/ sticking power to Tract/guide/lead. It is not Emei's "snake" either because it is execute reference to the White Crane's center line capturing concept.

if one using the White crane flip shock in WCK's application one will end up stagnated and cannot go close body. if one using the WCK slide in White Crane's application one will end up get hit....


Continuous on what I have post above.

So, these stuffs are very specific when in comes to TCMA. and furthermore is the condition of the body or doing the set.

If SLT/SNT is practiced with the snake as based then the Crane snap will be not a problem. if SLt/SNT is practiced with the crane as based then the snake slide will be an issue going forward. The reason is the Snake is activating more degree of freedom then the Crane. So the Snake can emulate Crane and Crane has trouble to emulate snake. That is just a reality for conditioning.


also, doing a search in TCMA history and architecture, we know White Crane of Fujian and Emei' 12 Zhuang stand out for these type of power generation, application strategy, and conditioning.
That is a fact with evidence for past 700 years of TCMA development.

So, if we claim WCK is from Wudang then we have to be able to do a search and see if the TCMA history and architecutre support this claim.

IE. if we claim WCK is from Shao Lin and Anti-Qing secret society. Then we need to do a search for evidence of what type of architecture and historic character. since there are atleast 3 shao lin exist. One is from Song San, one is Fujian, and one is emei.... and each of them has their own signature in their martial art. There is no room for generazation when it comes to TCMA style because the uniqueness is where their strength is.

As in White Crane of Fujian's case, we know from min 1600 to 1850, the students of White Crane of Fuian were very active in secret society. from the founder Fang Chi-Niang herself in 1600 to supporting of Taiping heavenly kingdom uprising 1850 to Lee Man Mau the red boat opera actor as was told. So, these anti qing and the art of these people really exist and traceable.

Emei is also traceable where anyone who is interested in it can Visit the Beijing Museum to check out the Emei's lotus cannon...



So, it is all about what is the style is about not everything is the same that is forsure. also it is not just about curriculum there is meaning and significant behind the curriculum and standard or level of attaiment or quality needed to be meet..... so a holistic view of an art one is practicing is very important. we just cant define and interprate the art as we likes it. sure one can evolve it after one master the art and become one's own version as a usual practice, IE Chen, Yang, Wu.... different of taiji....

[Eric_H]

According to your logic, you are sure 100% correct. You choose your own reality and you choose your owm karma.

Not "my logic" it's "actual logic"

Using "actual logic" to make decisions far surpasses anything else.



The origin is not important anymore. What is important is can it be used by the individual practitioner.


Only important when people make claims about it that don't hold up to logic. But I agree that in the end what works is what matters. To that end, where is the video of Hendrik using this snake+crane in something close to combat?

[theo]

Ok bob, or theo, or whoever you are

who's bob?


- please share with us your understanding of the centerline as dave/wayfaring was referring to. If you are going to make statements based on his idea of centerline coming from snake, then you should be able to describe exactly what dave is talking about since you seem to know so much :)

i mentioned that the concept of the centerline also exists in crane, not snake.



I ask this because Dave and I trained the same lineage of WC, and the centerline concept as I understand it does not come from crane. It comes from principles based on body alignment, gravity and facing toward our opponent. It goes deeper than that, but that's a beginning. It has nothing to do with some animal style

fujian white crane as i understand it, has a big emphasis on centerline in their art. it's not unique to WCK



Of course Dave and I may have different levels of understanding, but I think I understand where dave is coming from more than you having similar background to him, and it does NOT come from any crane system YOU think it does.
What you believe to be true for your version or adaption of WC doesn't necessarily hold true for ALL WC.

crane dates back to the early 1700's, where WCK came along later. the centerline principle and concept already existed prior, WCK did not invent it. and why would it? the principle was already known and utilized.




So what? What does tan sau looking like some structure in crane have to do with why WCK is WCK? My wc has a dragon claw technique/energy in a section of our SNT, that doesn't mean it is dragon style WC kung fu, nor really have anything to do with it.


part of why WCK is WCK is because it combines crane and snake. this is not a literal copy of crane and snake, but a fusion of both into a complete system. what WC do you practice? i'm just asking because I don't know what you practice, not implying it's incorrect.



You know what it means? That in certain applications, that is the correct energy to use for a given times/space in a fight. Nothing about animal fighting shapes, postures or 'signatures'. Just what is the best tool based on the situation, facing, distnace from opponent and energy on the bridge. That's WCK!
Crane is crane, dragon style is dragon style and WCK is WCK, why mix it all up?


the best tool based on the situation, facing, distance...aren't all styles doing this? does that make them all WCK as well? it's true crane is crane, WCK is WCK, but then you are also saying they are different to each other. what makes them different? certainly not just because WCK tries to use the best tool based on the situation right? timing, distance, etc are all factors any MA would need to consider. the point is that different styles would consider these differently based on their differences.




This doesn't make any sense to me. What are you talking about?

see above. each style is different, that's why as you mentioned, crane is crane, dragon is dragon, and wck is wck. as a result, each will approach application differently as well right? so different styles have different ways of generating power and different kinds of power. unless you're saying how power is generated doesn't affect how it is applied? if for example you need a long winding delivery. would u be able to use it in short range close body situations?

[Wayfaring]

Continuous on what I have post above.

So, these stuffs are very specific when in comes to TCMA. and furthermore is the condition of the body or doing the set.

If SLT/SNT is practiced with the snake as based then the Crane snap will be not a problem. if SLt/SNT is practiced with the crane as based then the snake slide will be an issue going forward. The reason is the Snake is activating more degree of freedom then the Crane. So the Snake can emulate Crane and Crane has trouble to emulate snake. That is just a reality for conditioning.


also, doing a search in TCMA history and architecture, we know White Crane of Fujian and Emei' 12 Zhuang stand out for these type of power generation, application strategy, and conditioning.
That is a fact with evidence for past 700 years of TCMA development.

So, if we claim WCK is from Wudang then we have to be able to do a search and see if the TCMA history and architecutre support this claim.

IE. if we claim WCK is from Shao Lin and Anti-Qing secret society. Then we need to do a search for evidence of what type of architecture and historic character. since there are atleast 3 shao lin exist. One is from Song San, one is Fujian, and one is emei.... and each of them has their own signature in their martial art. There is no room for generazation when it comes to TCMA style because the uniqueness is where their strength is.

As in White Crane of Fujian's case, we know from min 1600 to 1850, the students of White Crane of Fuian were very active in secret society. from the founder Fang Chi-Niang herself in 1600 to supporting of Taiping heavenly kingdom uprising 1850 to Lee Man Mau the red boat opera actor as was told. So, these anti qing and the art of these people really exist and traceable.

Emei is also traceable where anyone who is interested in it can Visit the Beijing Museum to check out the Emei's lotus cannon...



So, it is all about what is the style is about not everything is the same that is forsure. also it is not just about curriculum there is meaning and significant behind the curriculum and standard or level of attaiment or quality needed to be meet..... so a holistic view of an art one is practicing is very important. we just cant define and interprate the art as we likes it. sure one can evolve it after one master the art and become one's own version as a usual practice, IE Chen, Yang, Wu.... different of taiji....

WOW - it's so much easier just to cut and paste what you wrote previously rather than actually considering and responding to "actual logic".

For example, this is a duplicate of post #151.

Is this like a guy sticking fingers in his ears when others are talking and going "nah, nah, nah - I can't hear you"????

[GlennR]

From a long time lurker who rarely contributes..... enough already with the "700 yo emei snake porcupine power generation thingy" to prove your point !!!(What is your point??)

Its like a nightmare that never goes away

No wonder the "knucklehead kickboxers" laugh themselves when they hear/read this crap

[Wayfaring]

From a long time lurker who rarely contributes..... enough already with the "700 yo emei snake porcupine power generation thingy" to prove your point !!!(What is your point??)

Its like a nightmare that never goes away

No wonder the "knucklehead kickboxers" laugh themselves when they hear/read this crap

On a similar note, I did read that "Sonic the Hedgehog" will debut in Microsoft's lineup of first games for the Kinect system.

[GlennR]

Yes but ive done my research on Sonic and come up with the follwing;

"Doing a search in PC Gaming history and architecture, we know Sonic of Microsoft and Mario of Nintendo stand out for these type of power generation, application strategy, and conditioning.
That is a fact with evidence for past 700 years of PC Gaming development."

I rest my case!!!

[Hendrik]

enough already with the "700 yo emei snake porcupine power generation thingy" to prove your point !!!(What is your point??)



700 years is a long long time.

700 years old means in TCMA one can trace an art clearly even if it is a few hundred year old.

700 years old means a practice that is solid and proven otherwise it extinct long time ago.

700 years old means WCK is based on something significant and influencial in TCMA development history. WCK is not something pull out of the thin air.





Could you share Why WCK WCK compare with other Southern TCMA?




No wonder the "knucklehead kickboxers" laugh themselves when they hear/read this crap

To have approval from ALL others to present the facts and significant will never happen.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

Can hua jing only be done when one has the snake slide power generation?

Can someone please translate this clip about white crane snap power generation http://www.youtube.com/user/eric88ling#p/u/612/A5MRWO9Pw6k

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Can hua jing only be done when one has the snake slide power generation?

Can someone please translate this clip about white crane snap power generation http://www.youtube.com/user/eric88ling#p/u/612/A5MRWO9Pw6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKmgPTZOvVo&NR=1

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKmgPTZOvVo&NR=1

Hendrik, seriously you should consider getting off CRACK

[kung fu fighter]

Here is a style of wing chun that really emphasize the white crane inch and bouncing power generation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD7CQEhvCzU

Notice how he uses his whole body to generate inch power

[YungChun]

Here is a style of wing chun that really emphasize the white crane inch and bouncing power generation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD7CQEhvCzU

Notice how he uses his whole body to generate inch power

Note the fook sao strike...

[Knifefighter]

Note how almost nothing done in that clip looks like anything done during actual effective fighting.

[YungChun]

Note how almost nothing done in that clip looks like anything done during actual effective fighting.

Man you are so on the wrong forum... lol

[Knifefighter]

Man you are so on the wrong forum... lol

Oh that's right. I keep forgetting. This is the forum where people think that training in manners that don't resemble actual fighting will help them in fighting.

[Hendrik]

For me, I dont know why people make such a big deal on fighting.

Fighting is just a non reproduce able state of action. who care for resembling. what one care is can one KO.

and the action can be divided into 3 elements. 1, a stratergy guiding what one needs to do to achieve the goal and to not get confuse with different situation, 2, tools provide one to be able to handle different catagory of situation, 3, power generation when the mind says Yes the Body also says yes.


Keeping drilling on the 3 elements with oneself of with partners prepared one for action. However without the 3 elements one could keep drilling it is not going to do much.

Those who claim to know figthing but not experience with different type of power generation and not concern with different type of power generation ablity is in fact only rely on their muscular strength, and have no solution for the case when the mind says Yes and Body says no.


Also, knowing not the strategy of application is not effective but brute force.

Sure, one needs an experience coach or sifu to lead one similar to any type of action, Even learning how to drive a car needs that. However, it has become rediculus that keep chanting the mantra "figthing" fighting" fighting'' but clueless on what is figthing.


This thread is on Why WCK is WCK, not on fighting. So, let's not get into it here. and stop posting those fighting fighting post where you are clueless on what significant different type of power generation and application strategy means.

Those type of posts only tell me one has not much idea what one is talking about and also doesnt have a sharp mind to see what is what.

and to those who keep chanting the mantra of " testing under realistic fighting experience". if you dont even have the ability to understand and deliver different power type via different power generation to know the characteristics and strenght of different power type. Dont talk fighting. you are just like people who fantasy rocket launcher but have never hold one and have never know how much a rockect fuel could damange.


and also, Dont keep promoting fighting fighting fighting here. Think about it, any damage to internal organs be it your or others might not be reverseable. unless you are not fighting because you never capable to do the damage in the shortest time. So, what is the point to keep promoting fighting fighting and ignore totally the consequence of your life or other life; your life or others' life could never be the same again just after a MACHO sparing or fighting to boost that ego.

I have seen enough this type of stupid act and saying; if martial art is for promoting and training all these type of brainless fantasy AIR HEAD what is the point? paying for having some MACHO BS and totally screw you life or other's life?

[theo]

people say WCK is for fighting, of course it can be used that way and for that purpose. for me, it's about really entering into the state of mind where you don't have that attachment to a particular mindset. it's a way of quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness. it's about preserving and not destroying.

however, when it comes down to it, to use what you know, you have to train the application. but to train the application, we must understand the strategy and that depends on what kind of power you can generate.

[Hendrik]

people say WCK is for fighting, of course it can be used that way and for that purpose. for me, it's about really entering into the state of mind where you don't have that attachment to a particular mindset. it's a way of quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness. it's about preserving and not destroying.

however, when it comes down to it, to use what you know, you have to train the application. but to train the application, we must understand the strategy and that depends on what kind of power you can generate.

As soon as there is rule, there is not real fighting. and who can effort the consequence of real fighting? or is it neccesary to go that far just to prove a point of who is better?

about 30 years ago, I got a friend who is very good in fighting/sparing and beat the heck out of lots of street figther. So, one night while he was pumping gas he got ambush and end up dead by some one he beat previously.

So, that the heck is all those fighting and good in fighting proof? NONE but end up dead. You want to go that path? fine with me. I dont go that path.

Also, I know some one was carrying a chest injury from Kyokushin exams full contact no pull back fighting until a few years ago; he use the six healing sound internal art to clear it out. That thing is in him for 30 years and he thought the other medicine has clear it out. Nope it is there damaging his body. You want to go that path? fine with me. you better has the six healing sound internal art and also the bone marrow washing internal art. It is just naive to think this thing as entertainment.

[Knifefighter]

and have no solution for the case when the mind says Yes and Body says no.?

And neither do you. When your neuromusculuar system shuts down because the enzymes no longer work due to acidosis, your mind can tell you whatever you want, nobody is going to follow what it tells you to do.

You can easily prove this for yourself. Go onto a running track and run a mile all out as fast as you can, including a full on sprint for the last 220 yards. Rest 10 seconds and then immediately try to run a second mile faster. No matter what b.s. techniques you have taught yourself to "overcome your mind with power generation", you won't run the second mile as fast as your mind is telling you to.

[Hendrik]

And neither do you. When your neuromusculuar system shuts down because the enzymes no longer work due to acidosis, your mind can tell you whatever you want, nobody is going to follow what it tells you to do.

You can easily prove this for yourself. Go onto a running track and run a mile all out as fast as you can, including a full on sprint for the last 220 yards. Rest 10 seconds and then immediately try to run a second mile faster. No matter what b.s. techniques you have taught yourself to "overcome your mind with power generation", you won't run the second mile as fast as your mind is telling you to.



You just as theoretical as anyone and also very self center on something you dont know at all.

see not everyone can ran the last 220 yards of a mile, even with the same person at the peak condition or after aging it is problematic. also most people at 40 or above is just over.

Look, you might be a MMA fighter, that is fine with me and fully respect. But you dont know Chinese Martial art and how different power generation was done beside your way. So, be smart dont get into the area where you are not belongs to. Isnt that the first key point of a fighter? where is your discipline to not make assumption on what you dont know and not getting into the realm you dont know? where is the training? BTW. I learn that in Wing Chun kuen and also Kyokushin.

[t_niehoff]

people say WCK is for fighting, of course it can be used that way and for that purpose.


Yes, that is why it is called Wing Chun KUEN.



for me, it's about really entering into the state of mind where you don't have that attachment to a particular mindset. it's a way of quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness. it's about preserving and not destroying.


Let me ask you a question. What would you think of a tennis player who said they know some people say tennis is all about hitting the ball, beating an opponent, etc., but that they didn't really care about playing tennis, about being able to hit the ball, but was really only concerned about "quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness"?

Why would you need tennis for that? Just go take up some spiritual practice. And do you think you could really learn or know anything significant about tennis if you had no concern for playing it or hitting the ball? In other words, actually doing the activity itself?




however, when it comes down to it, to use what you know, you have to train the application. but to train the application, we must understand the strategy and that depends on what kind of power you can generate.

No, the strategy/method you use will determine what kind of things you will need to be able to do (to implement it), and that (what things you need to be able to do) will determine how you NEED to use your body (to generate power).

[Hendrik]

for me, it's about really entering into the state of mind where you don't have that attachment to a particular mindset. it's a way of quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness. it's about preserving and not destroying. --th




Let me ask you a question. What would you think of a tennis player who said they know some people say tennis is all about hitting the ball, beating an opponent, etc., but that they didn't really care about playing tennis, about being able to hit the ball, but was really only concerned about "quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness"?

Why would you need tennis for that? Just go take up some spiritual practice. And do you think you could really learn or know anything significant about tennis if you had no concern for playing it or hitting the ball? In other words, actually doing the activity itself? --T


1, Fighting is not the same with tennis. Fighting has a consequence which is much much larger then tennis game.

2, For the full train holistic Chinese martial artits ( such as Liu in the following clip.
Liu Yun Chiao was the figther who beat Japanese army chief in Shang Hai, hit man, and president's body guard and body guard lead who train to kill within 3 moves. Liu serves Chiang family in both China and Taiwan. Related to Liu in the same TCMA family is the second last Qing Emperor's body guard.)
It is this grade of people I am talking about. be it in WCK or White Crane or Yee Chuan or Hsing Yee or .....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rY0grCUEg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0zSNng2Zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgeHNaB0jSA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVkdrclCXc&feature=related

TCMA is not a sport but a destructive tool. and to handle that tool one needs to have clear mind because every application has consequence and also a clear mind or quiet mind handle the tool better.

TCMA is not what you think.

[Knifefighter]

see not everyone can ran the last 220 yards of a mile, even with the same person at the peak condition or after aging it is problematic. also most people at 40 or above is just over.

Then I guess your "power generation" and "mastery over the mind" doesn't work as well as you think it will.

The person talking in a area that he knows nothing about would be guys like you who think they understand training for human performance, when the fact is they are pretty clueless on the subject.

You want to know about human power generation, get an education in the field of applied exercise science. Until then, you are like the guy who has taken apart a computer thinking he understands how to design a computer CPU.

[Knifefighter]

--For the full train holistic Chinese martial artits ( such as Liu in the following clip.
Liu Yun Chiao was the figther who beat Japanese army chief in Shang Hai, hit man, and president's body guard and body guard lead who train to kill within 3 moves. Liu serves Chiang family in both China and Taiwan. Related to Liu in the same TCMA family is the second last Qing Emperor's body guard.)
It is this grade of people I am talking about. be it in WCK or White Crane or Yee Chuan or Hsing Yee or .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rY0grCUEg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0zSNng2Zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgeHNaB0jSA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVkdrclCXc&feature=related
.

Oh, them, the slow motion guys. Oh man!! Those guys are definitely deadly. You can tell because they are moving in slow motion and whenever someone moves in slow motion in the movies you know they are going to kick some @ss.

[Hendrik]

Then I guess your "power generation" and "mastery over the mind" doesn't work as well as you think it will.

The person talking in a area that he knows nothing about would be guys like you who think they understand training for human performance, when the fact is they are pretty clueless on the subject.

You want to know about human power generation, get an education in the field of applied exercise science. Until then, you are like the guy who has taken apart a computer thinking he understands how to design a computer CPU.


Guessing and self-center appear again and again, isnt it?

[Hendrik]

Oh, them, the slow motion guys. Oh man!! Those guys are definitely deadly. You can tell because they are moving in slow motion and whenever someone moves in slow motion in the movies you know they are going to kick some @ss.


You want to test out those guys? Check it out , Go to Taiwan and trespass the president office. Until then you are a not different then a bias theorician.

[Knifefighter]

You want to test out those guys? Check it out , Go to Taiwan and trespass the president office. Until then you are a not different then a bias theorician.

Hendrick-

You seem to think those guys are bad@ss fighters. What is it that makes you think that?

[GlennR]

700 years is a long long time.

700 years old means in TCMA one can trace an art clearly even if it is a few hundred year old.

700 years old means a practice that is solid and proven otherwise it extinct long time ago.

700 years old means WCK is based on something significant and influencial in TCMA development history. WCK is not something pull out of the thin air.





Could you share Why WCK WCK compare with other Southern TCMA?




To have approval from ALL others to present the facts and significant will never happen.

Oh please.......... using the above argument has nothing to do with "why is WCK WCK"... Its just you beating your own agenda driven chest
And your add on to that is some old guys on news clips doing pre-arranged demo's to further add to your "evidence"

Youll not be happy until everyone yells... "thankyou for showing us the light"....

[Hendrik]

Hendrick-

You seem to think those guys are bad@ss fighters. What is it that makes you think that?

I dont think those guys are bad@ss figthers. they train in holistic TCMA so one could check it out on what is the reality of TCMA instead of everyone's five cents.

[Knifefighter]

I dont think those guys are bad@ss figthers. they train in holistic TCMA so one could check it out on what is the reality of TCMA instead of everyone's five cents.

Then what, exactly, do you want me to test out with them?

[Hendrik]

Then what, exactly, do you want me to test out with them?

How is holitic TCMA perform in the reality.

[Hendrik]

Oh please.......... using the above argument has nothing to do with "why is WCK WCK"... Its just you beating your own agenda driven chest
And your add on to that is some old guys on news clips doing pre-arranged demo's to further add to your "evidence"

Youll not be happy until everyone yells... "thankyou for showing us the light"....

You certainly could imagine anyway you like.

However, the Chinese traditional way of explanation is always one needs to show where the source is from. And I am just following that direction since the discussion is TCMA and based on Chinese tradition.

[Knifefighter]

How is holitic TCMA perform in the reality.

I think that is already shown in those clips... pretend, theoretical, slow-motion non-fighting.

[t_niehoff]

1, Fighting is not the same with tennis. Fighting has a consequence which is much much larger then tennis game.


But that completely misses the point. So what if fighting has greater consequences, my analogy is intended to show that when you take an activity -- tennis or a fighting method -- and try to make it into some way of "quieting your mind and unifying mind and body in stillness" you are being false to the activity itself and really only being self-indulgent.



2, For the full train holistic Chinese martial artits ( such as Liu in the following clip.
Liu Yun Chiao was the figther who beat Japanese army chief in Shang Hai, hit man, and president's body guard and body guard lead who train to kill within 3 moves. Liu serves Chiang family in both China and Taiwan. Related to Liu in the same TCMA family is the second last Qing Emperor's body guard.)
It is this grade of people I am talking about. be it in WCK or White Crane or Yee Chuan or Hsing Yee or .....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rY0grCUEg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0zSNng2Zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgeHNaB0jSA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVkdrclCXc&feature=related

TCMA is not a sport but a destructive tool. and to handle that tool one needs to have clear mind because every application has consequence and also a clear mind or quiet mind handle the tool better.

TCMA is not what you think.

If they "train to kill within three moves" then they are training fantasy.

TCMA is what it produces. And the evidence is pretty overwhelming in what it produces -- and doesn't produce.

Sport is also what it produces. And the evidence is pretty overwhelming in that regard too.

TCMA doesn't produce a clear mind, just the opposite. A clear mind could see what the evidence shows. ;)

[Knifefighter]

If they "train to kill within three moves" then they are training fantasy.

How did I miss that part?

Yeah, maybe if they are shooting or sneaking up behind people and stabbing them.

[Knifefighter]

Terence,

Since you are an expert, since these people are the Taiwan's president's guard, Go to the Taiwan president's office, Trespassing or Challenge them and see how good are you stand up for real.

Until then, talk is always cheap right?

Hendrick,

If you think being in the Taiwan president's guard somehow makes them able to kill someone in three moves, you as deluded as some people have accused you of being.

The only thing that trespassing or challenging them is going to do is to have them pull their weapons. And no matter how crappy their fighting ability, when 15 of them jump on top of you, you're not gong to be doing very much to challenge them.

[Hendrik]

This is Liu's bio. His art Baji is a unique ancient TCMA.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/photos/LiuFuneral/grandmaster.htm

[Knifefighter]

This is Liu's bio. His art Baji is a unique ancient TCMA.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/photos/LiuFuneral/grandmaster.htm

And you somehow think that made him able to kill people with three moves?

[Hendrik]

Hendrick,

If you think being in the Taiwan president's guard somehow makes them able to kill someone in three moves, you as deluded as some people have accused you of being.

The only thing that trespassing or challenging them is going to do is to have them pull their weapons. And no matter how crappy their fighting ability, when 15 of them jump on top of you, you're not gong to be doing very much to challenge them.


I have just delete the post to Terence which you qoute because I dont think there is any point to carry on the discussion.

[Hendrik]

And you somehow think that made him able to kill people with three moves?


I dont think.

Liu's capability speak for himself. his students' ability also speak for themself. Baji also speak for itself.





To those who dont Know Baji and Liu, check the following out to find out who practice this type of art and also the uniquenes: strategy.. power generation....etc. and also history/origin
As I mention in the previous posts of this thread. I am just follow the Traditional Chinese way to describe a Martial art Style so that some of you from the west know how proper TCMA consist of.

WCK needs similar type of clarity when it comes to TCMA describtion. iT Cannot be anyone's translation. it got to be what it is. why it is it is. and where is the origin. IMHO


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C4%81j%C3%ADqu%C3%A1n

Li Shuwen 李書文 (1864-1934). The latter was from Cangzhou, Hebei, and earned himself the nickname "God of Spear Li".[citation needed] A Peking opera Wu Shen (martial male character) by training, he was also an expert fighter. His most famous quote is, "I do not know what it's like to hit a man twice.


Li Shuwen's students included Huo Dian Ge 霍殿閣 (bodyguard to Pu Yi, the last Emperor of China), Li Chenwu (bodyguard to Mao Zedong), and Liu Yun Qiao 劉雲樵 (secret agent for the nationalist Kuomintang and instructor of the bodyguards of Chiang Kai Shek)[citation needed].


To have 3 Baji students to become 3 body guards of the top men of china in the same era is certainly not accidental IMHO.

[Vajramusti]

In Liu sifu's bio it is mentioned that he met and "exchanged" knowledge with Chen Fake.
Did you come across any info on what the nature of that "exchange" was?

Joy Chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

In Liu sifu's bio it is mentioned that he met and "exchanged" knowledge with Chen Fake.
Did you come across any info on what the nature of that "exchange" was?

Joy Chaudhuri

No I dont have the infor. Adam Hsu will be a good source to check out. IMHO.

[theo]

As soon as there is rule, there is not real fighting. and who can effort the consequence of real fighting? or is it neccesary to go that far just to prove a point of who is better?

about 30 years ago, I got a friend who is very good in fighting/sparing and beat the heck out of lots of street figther. So, one night while he was pumping gas he got ambush and end up dead by some one he beat previously.


i have heard similar accounts. a friend of a friend got into a fight in a movie theater parking lot and won. the guy who got beat up came back with 40 other people looking for him. fighting is about life and death.

sparring and training application is necessary to be able to apply it. can't get any more simple than that. BUT one also needs to remember that they are not in a "realistic" fighting experience. nothing can simulate a real life and death situation unless you're in it. so let's call it what it is, when we train application, we are training application, we are not fighting.

[Hendrik]

i have heard similar accounts. a friend of a friend got into a fight in a movie theater parking lot and won. the guy who got beat up came back with 40 other people looking for him. fighting is about life and death.

sparring and training application is necessary to be able to apply it. can't get any more simple than that. BUT one also needs to remember that they are not in a "realistic" fighting experience. nothing can simulate a real life and death situation unless you're in it. so let's call it what it is, when we train application, we are training application, we are not fighting.



I give up Martial art and Convert to Praying practice for almost a decade now. The only realistic thing I can help others is to pray for him or her.

[omarthefish]

In Liu sifu's bio it is mentioned that he met and "exchanged" knowledge with Chen Fake.
Did you come across any info on what the nature of that "exchange" was?

Joy Chaudhuri

Just forms demos and chatting. The upshot was that after meeting Chen Fake he supposedly said that he thought the power and mechanics of Chen Taiji and Baji were pretty much the same.

My own teacher says much the same. We do Yang Taij and Baji and he says that Baji is like our "er lu".

[k gledhill]

I give up Martial art and Convert to Praying practice for almost a decade now. The only realistic thing I can help others is to pray for him or her.

a solid punch to a 'jaw'. reality... praying ? bs hiding ...get out to a bar or nightclub hendrik....Kareoke even...;) stay alive.

pray for yourself LOSER...: )

[theo]

pray for yourself LOSER...: )

not sure if u meant that as a joke, but that's not cool :confused:

[t_niehoff]

I dont think.


To be more precise, you don't think critically.



Liu's capability speak for himself. his students' ability also speak for themself. Baji also speak for itself.


How can we know what his or his students' "capacity" is? How does it speak for itself? You make a wild claim as to his capacity, and then when asked for evidence of his skill, retort with "it speaks for itself". No it doesn't.

Your reasoning goes like this: X is a dangerous TCMA, so-and-so is a well-known and recognized master of X, therefore so-and-so is very good. Yet, you have good basis in terms of evidence (only theory) for saying X, whether Baji or whatever, is a "dangerous" TCMA, and no good basis or evidence for saying so-and-so is any good.

When you talk curriculum, history, etc. I think you've some good, solid points to make. But when you talk about application or about skill, you often enter into the realm of fantasy/imagination.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

a solid punch to a 'jaw'. reality... praying ? bs hiding ...get out to a bar or nightclub hendrik....Kareoke even...;) stay alive.

pray for yourself LOSER...: )

Do you think this post makes you a winner? :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

a solid punch to a 'jaw'. reality... praying ? bs hiding ...get out to a bar or nightclub hendrik....Kareoke even...;) stay alive.

pray for yourself LOSER...: )


For me, warrior is about courage facing absolute vulnerable and not to be in vulnerable. The worst enermy which give me fear is my own self. and so does I saw lots of people suffer similar to myself.

At one point I thought by having lots of power generation capability will makes me in vulnerable, but than, I found out only if I have courage at my absolute vulnerable state that can set me free. and when I dont have the courage, I need the prayer to give me the courage.

I then make my daily practice to pray for others because human are fragile like me and we often dont have the courage to face the absolute vulnerable to set ourself free.

Winner and Loser doesnt matter when one face the absolute vulnerable of oneself because it is about set oneself free and not about victory over others.

you can punch me in my jaw but prayer still set you free.

[Hendrik]

To be more precise, you don't think critically.

.


I dont have to think. Just check the facts and track records.

[theo]

For me, warrior is about courage facing absolute vulnerable and not to be in vulnerable. The worst enermy which give me fear is my own self. and so does I saw lots of people suffer similar to myself.

At one point I thought by having lots of power generation capability will makes me in vulnerable, but than, I found out only if I have courage at my absolute vulnerable state that can set me free. and when I dont have the courage, I need the prayer to give me the courage.

I then make my daily practice to pray for others because human are fragile like me and we often dont have the courage to face the absolute vulnerable to set ourself free.

Winner and Loser doesnt matter when one face the absolute vulnerable of oneself because it is about set oneself free and not about victory over others.

you can punch me in my jaw but prayer still set you free.

nice post. i saw glimpses of the same realization on and off but gradually its become more natural. this didn't happen overnight nor suddenly but slowly over time. it's an internal journey and i think it comes eventually if we allow ourselves to enter silence and go with Nature. easier said than done, but you can't force it.

[Vajramusti]

Just forms demos and chatting. The upshot was that after meeting Chen Fake he supposedly said that he thought the power and mechanics of Chen Taiji and Baji were pretty much the same.

My own teacher says much the same. We do Yang Taij and Baji and he says that Baji is like our "er lu".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Appreciate the info on that meeting... between Chen Fake and the Baji master. I don't know enough about Baji to have a settled opinion on comparing the power and mechanics of Chen style and Baji. My tentative judgment is that top flight Chen style is a more complete art though Baji also looks powerful.
I enjoy doing some Chen style supplementsl drills-for which I have had some first rate instruction..
on Baji I have seen some video of Adam Hsu and the posted videos of Liu sifu.
My main art remains wing chun... for which I have received top flight instruction. But my curiosity is extensive.Thanks again for your response to my query.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Sergio did an excellent job on this one!

http://www.youtube.com/sifusergiochannel#p/a/u/0/cm7vjAqAvjg

Notice:

1, it is about Chi Sau not Kiu Sau,
2, let the other hand passed and seal off and close body....

all those snake slide and Emei signature as what we discuss in the previous post.



http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1047053&postcount=38

So, one can see across from sifu Gary Lam of LA to 90 yearold senior Fung of Koo Lo, the snake signature is there.

Well, some will say WCK is created by Ng mui, Chi Sim, Yat Chan, Secret society....etc. I honestly careless about all the label. My bottom line is simply what is it the key elements? where it is from and how can I use it to activate WCK. Romance and history is great however the bottom of the line one still need to get benifit out of the set. IMHO

[chusauli]

Fung Chun Sifu certainly shows the signature of classic WCK. He sticks to the bridge and and passes the elbow, allowing him to control and strike.

He is great! That is Gu Lao WCK proper.

That is the signature of WCK.

[Hendrik]

Fung Chun Sifu certainly shows the signature of classic WCK. He sticks to the bridge and and passes the elbow, allowing him to control and strike.

He is great! That is Gu Lao WCK proper.

That is the signature of WCK.



RC,

Agree. Fung is very respectable.

Also, he did mention the 3 sets (SLT, CK, BJ) of Futsan WCK or the 108 points.

Well, the Yik Kam 4 section's old name is the 108 points SLT. So, 1 set or 3 sets what matter is the basic is covered as in Gu Lao no set.

These are precious information Fung left us. Kudos for Sergio.

[jesper]

How did I miss that part?

Yeah, maybe if they are shooting or sneaking up behind people and stabbing them.

If its one of my men shooting and he needs three shot im going to beat him up :D

[Wayfaring]

Sergio did an excellent job on this one!

http://www.youtube.com/sifusergiochannel#p/a/u/0/cm7vjAqAvjg

Notice:

1, it is about Chi Sau not Kiu Sau,
2, let the other hand passed and seal off and close body....

all those snake slide and Emei signature as what we discuss in the previous post.



http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1047053&postcount=38

So, one can see across from sifu Gary Lam of LA to 90 yearold senior Fung of Koo Lo, the snake signature is there.

Well, some will say WCK is created by Ng mui, Chi Sim, Yat Chan, Secret society....etc. I honestly careless about all the label. My bottom line is simply what is it the key elements? where it is from and how can I use it to activate WCK. Romance and history is great however the bottom of the line one still need to get benifit out of the set. IMHO

Here we go again with the fantasy associations.

Yes, Sergio is very prevalent on traveling, visiting and "researching". He's currently found the Black Flag stuff with Benny Meng.

Notice:

1. It's about Chi Sau, it's not about Kiu Sau

You completely miss the whole fundamental reason and story for Kiu Sau. It is trained along with the SLT set to help teach structure. There are countless videos of WCK people doing "chi sau" on the net where one or both have absolutely zero structure - arms and elbows folded in on themselves, collapsed wu, back weighted and stance problems, no forward intent, etc.

Kiu Sau is SLT level to train structure - then once it's there you have something to base chi sau upon as opposed to fantasy and distortion.

2, Let other hand pass (the elbow) and seal off the body

This is no more proof of some random snake / Emei connection than doing this with snakeskin boots on is. It is simply part of core WCK fundamentals, and is broader.

So one can see, that Hendrik can name drop of people he associates his theory with from Gary Lam to Fung Chun sifu, even though both of those people if you mentioned the name Hendrik wouldn't even know who you are talking about, and certainly wouldn't pick him to represent their arts to the world.

The only "signature" involved anywhere around here is dumbness.

But I did enjoy the video of Fung Chun sifu explaining to Sergio - that was worth watching.

[t_niehoff]

Notice:

1. It's about Chi Sau, it's not about Kiu Sau

You completely miss the whole fundamental reason and story for Kiu Sau. It is trained along with the SLT set to help teach structure. There are countless videos of WCK people doing "chi sau" on the net where one or both have absolutely zero structure - arms and elbows folded in on themselves, collapsed wu, back weighted and stance problems, no forward intent, etc.

Kiu Sau is SLT level to train structure - then once it's there you have something to base chi sau upon as opposed to fantasy and distortion.


I don't understand either of you. WCK has "kiu sao" -- every f##king action/movement we do is a kiu sao. When you perform chi sao, we are using kiu sao. Every single drill we do uses kiu sao.



2, Let other hand pass (the elbow) and seal off the body

This is no more proof of some random snake / Emei connection than doing this with snakeskin boots on is. It is simply part of core WCK fundamentals, and is broader.

So one can see, that Hendrik can name drop of people he associates his theory with from Gary Lam to Fung Chun sifu, even though both of those people if you mentioned the name Hendrik wouldn't even know who you are talking about, and certainly wouldn't pick him to represent their arts to the world.

The only "signature" involved anywhere around here is dumbness.

But I did enjoy the video of Fung Chun sifu explaining to Sergio - that was worth watching.

That TACTIC is a legitimate WCK's tactic. But, it is not the ONLY WCK tactic or some signature tactic (that we alone do). And, if we use some other tactic, it doesn't mean we are not doing WCK. There are may ways to control an opponent while striking him, and to control an opponent we need to adapt to what our opponent is doing. Your opponent can move in ways that prevent you from effectively using this particular tactic. There are times when crashing down the centerline is the best, most effective thing to do.

Hendrik has, it seems, vastly oversimplified what he thinks are "signatures". It is not that WCK has ONE signature tactic, and ONE signature way of generating power, etc. but the signature is in how all these various elements combine. IOWs, it is the MIXTURE that is unique not the ingredients themselves.

[Vajramusti]

" There are countless videos of WCK people doing "chi sau" on the net where one or both have absolutely zero structure - arms and elbows folded in on themselves, collapsed wu, back weighted and stance problems, no forward intent, etc. "(Way farin)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to have a problem with most things that Hendrik posts.He can be on the mark, off the mark or somewhere else. I agree, disagree, read, ignore
and try to be selective with posts. Each to his own.

In any case- You tube is you tube- it has no quality control or comprehensiveness.

Good Ip Man wing chun is very aware of the role of "kiu". It gives a special meaning to the dynamics of chum kiu and it's applications in chi sao, gor sao. lat sao etc...

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Hendrik is explaining Kuen Kuit related to Emai 12 Zhuang application, which reads:

勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

The method demonstrated by Fung Chun is in accord with this understanding.

BTW, Sergio says Fung Chun was a student of Leung Jan, when in actuality, he was a student of Wong Wah Sum, who was Leung Jan's student.

I do not agree with Fung Chun's assessment of Futshan WCK, but it may be speculation on his part, since he has not learned that system. To say that Futshan WCK does not break down the order of movements is ridiculous - otherwise, how can you use WCK in application?

[Hendrik]

Yes, Sergio is very prevalent on traveling, visiting and "researching". He's currently found the Black Flag stuff with Benny Meng.

When some one did a good job which benifit others then we need to be able to praise him. For it is not whom but what one did is important.

There are things Sergio and me disagree, but that doesnt place him to be wrong all the time. Since we all are just human.




Notice:


1. It's about Chi Sau, it's not about Kiu Sau

You completely miss the whole fundamental reason and story for Kiu Sau. It is trained along with the SLT set to help teach structure. There are countless videos of WCK people doing "chi sau" on the net where one or both have absolutely zero structure - arms and elbows folded in on themselves, collapsed wu, back weighted and stance problems, no forward intent, etc.

Kiu Sau is SLT level to train structure - then once it's there you have something to base chi sau upon as opposed to fantasy and distortion.



You certainly could define Kiu Sau that way. and what I simply means is WCK goes beyond the traditional southern TCMA.








2, Let other hand pass (the elbow) and seal off the body

This is no more proof of some random snake / Emei connection than doing this with snakeskin boots on is. It is simply part of core WCK fundamentals, and is broader.

So one can see, that Hendrik can name drop of people he associates his theory with from Gary Lam to Fung Chun sifu, even though both of those people if you mentioned the name Hendrik wouldn't even know who you are talking about, and certainly wouldn't pick him to represent their arts to the world.

The only "signature" involved anywhere around here is dumbness.


Without brought up the uniqueness signature, one cant discuss much about WCK. For WCK is not a subjective matter which everyone could interplate or define his own.


If you dont like my evidence, find one yourself and share it. That simple.






But I did enjoy the video of Fung Chun sifu explaining to Sergio - that was worth watching.


Sergio has done a good job. that is forsure.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik has, it seems, vastly oversimplified what he thinks are "signatures". It is not that WCK has ONE signature tactic, and ONE signature way of generating power, etc. but the signature is in how all these various elements combine. IOWs, it is the MIXTURE that is unique not the ingredients themselves.



One always has to start some where on first order basis. Again, I dont "think" It is an evidence those signature exist in WCK and Emei.


For example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spNNcNkCzhA

explain the uniqueness of the ancestor crane style. The center line concept of White Crane is applied in a different way in ancestor crane.


Same with the Baji description and all other TCMA style, in TCMA, one needs to clear the strategy and power generation signature. because that is the expertise of that style. That is not up to any one's interpretation or fuzzy.


For any one who is interested to learn what is TCMA style those stuffs needs to be iron out not up for anyone's intepretation.



Furthermore, just that single stratergy uniques and power generation, how many of us has mastered it? we got to be honest with ourself. if we dont have it and keep adding BJJ or TKD....etc what are we doing? We dont do WCK because we have not yet even master the basic. and also without master the basic, how is one going to discuss the advance like in the snake slide power generation to generate power in advance form.

Certainly, I dont expect everyone think like me and I totally accept how different people think. I am just present what happen and how it happen if we look at things according to the TCMA tradition.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik is explaining Kuen Kuit related to Emai 12 Zhuang application, which reads:

勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.




Two signature of Emei exist simultaneously in WCK. and that might be a chance or accident. But what is the probability of accident? when the application strategy and the power generation align?

And we in TCMA long enough know that the above strategy is extremely important to WCK because that is what the bottom line of door opening for WCK. every style has a different way of door opening. and opening this door needs a special power generation to support it. look at the previous post of the Ancestor White Crane, they open the door differently, use different power generation, still using Center line as reference but the approach is totally different.

also, I have never against anyone to present how other WCK signature link to different TCMA.


For example, one might find some one doing WCK with Chen Taiji's reel silk power generation. But then, that power generation is not consistence when one needs to get into close body of WCK application strategy. Thus, one knows, Chen's reel silk cant be it.

Same thing, one might do SLT with Hung Gar iron wire "dead weight lifting" type of power generation. But then, that power generation is not consistence when one do slide close up in WCK since more joins activity is needed to stick then the Iron wire of power generation.


Do I know it all? I dont.

I am just sharing if one want to investigate TCMA, by traditional one needs to clear up the Power generation and application strategy type. one needs to trace where these signature is likely to be from.

Anyone could present their view, and I am welcome that.


I disagree with lots of WCK researcher who is doing research in the direction of secret society because as we see from the above post across the TCMA, it is the power generation and application strategy which makes the style the style and the key is where are the source of these uniquness. Secret society doesnt solve the problem unless one could pin point where is the source of the art.

If some one today found out by evidence ,say, Cheong Ng is the siheng of Fang Chi-Niang, they both learn the White Crane from Chen Yong Hua the top strategies of Tien Tee Hui. and Cheong bring the Crane down to Canton and merge with Taiji to form WCK. For me, that is legitimate. True or not is a different story which needs to be go for further investigation in details. but that is better then telling me, there are 80 version of secret society, there are 10 flags section, there are 400 blood oat. and at the end there is not answer any question at all. that is because we are reseaching a "technology" call WCK we are not researching a "family tree" of people.

[Wayfaring]

You seem to have a problem with most things that Hendrik posts.He can be on the mark, off the mark or somewhere else. I agree, disagree, read, ignore
and try to be selective with posts. Each to his own.

Joy,

Historically I have not taken a great deal of issue with Hendrik over the years. More recently I disagree with his assessment of Emei snake and crane origins of WCK and the way he deleted previous opposing viewpoints and is presenting his viewpoint as "incontrovertible evidence". As such I am being vocal for the other side of the argument, that WCK has differences in its historical development than the standard animal based southern WCK, and that the primary differences center on its development for the human frame and efficiency of structures and energies therein.

You can see my viewpoint, be angry with my viewpoint, whatever. To each his own, as you say.



In any case- You tube is you tube- it has no quality control or comprehensiveness.

While this is true, when you look at the preponderance of evidence, the majority of WCK families have nothing against posting on YouTube, so looking at an aggregate in a sense DOES represent the least common denominator.

My family background in HFY has preferences against video and training other than hands on. So take that for what it is, but it is not represented in this.



Good Ip Man wing chun is very aware of the role of "kiu". It gives a special meaning to the dynamics of chum kiu and it's applications in chi sao, gor sao. lat sao etc...

While I believe you here, again my experience is in training structure with Kiu Sau at the SLT level in HFY. And the purpose of it IMO is to avoid the common errors prevalently seen in structure.


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I don't understand either of you. WCK has "kiu sao" -- every f##king action/movement we do is a kiu sao. When you perform chi sao, we are using kiu sao. Every single drill we do uses kiu sao.

The disconnect here is that "WCK" as I understand it typically does not specifically train kiu sau. The Moy Yat chi sau progression I was exposed to did not. Yet HFY does in the SLT level.

So does your family's teachings teach kiu sau specifically? Please let me know. Perhaps this is another "core signature" of WCK.

The benefits I have personally seen is not getting "jammed up" with my own body parts in live scenarios, such as I see in far too many examples of WCK on youtube.



Hendrik has, it seems, vastly oversimplified what he thinks are "signatures". It is not that WCK has ONE signature tactic, and ONE signature way of generating power, etc. but the signature is in how all these various elements combine. IOWs, it is the MIXTURE that is unique not the ingredients themselves.
And my contention is the more you generalize what you think "signatures" are, and then if you extend this logic to including or excluding different families based upon your personal interpretation and observation of these "signatures", you are being intellectually dishonest.

[Wayfaring]

Hendrik is explaining Kuen Kuit related to Emai 12 Zhuang application, which reads:

勿当冲马劲, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
横锁刁牛蹩, Sideway lock the bull's feet.
封闭借来法, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

I understand and have zero contention with Hendrik over explaining his family's WCK and relationship to Emei 12 Zhuang's kuen kuit.

It's the generalizing of this to "ALL" WCK and "legitimate" WCK that I think he's full of beans on.



The method demonstrated by Fung Chun is in accord with this understanding.

BTW, Sergio says Fung Chun was a student of Leung Jan, when in actuality, he was a student of Wong Wah Sum, who was Leung Jan's student.

I do not agree with Fung Chun's assessment of Futshan WCK, but it may be speculation on his part, since he has not learned that system. To say that Futshan WCK does not break down the order of movements is ridiculous - otherwise, how can you use WCK in application?
I enjoyed the interview / interaction with Fung Chun sifu. He has an interesting WCK family background and perspective.

[Wayfaring]

You certainly could define Kiu Sau that way. and what I simply means is WCK goes beyond the traditional southern TCMA.

I agree with you here. In my HFY background, chi sau includes a progression and skill set training of Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu and Chi Sau. It is differently than Moy Yat's progression. I am unaware of how different it is from many other family's progressions of chi sau training other than through forum interaction.



Without brought up the uniqueness signature, one cant discuss much about WCK. For WCK is not a subjective matter which everyone could interplate or define his own.

I disagree. Every historic record is written by individuals with subjective perspectives. In education you frequently read historians with opposite biases. WCK in general is among the most subjective of any martial arts I have studied because you have so many theoreticians who don't fight and figure out what works and what doesn't.

That said, the WCK I've studied is systematic and has non-subjective checkpoints.



If you dont like my evidence, find one yourself and share it. That simple.

I have shared a different perspective. Your blindness is in calling your viewpoint "evidence". It isn't.

[Wayfaring]

Two signature of Emei exist simultaneously in WCK. and that might be a chance or accident. But what is the probability of accident? when the application strategy and the power generation align?
Muy Thai has a much shallower stance than boxing and implements two sides live. So the facing, and much of the power generation have "signatures" that "exist simulatneously" with WCK.

But if I'd start to try to make a case that Muy Thai was the father of WCK and all "legitimate" WCK shows elements of Muy Thai I'd be wrong.

Just like you are.



And we in TCMA long enough know that the above strategy is extremely important to WCK because that is what the bottom line of door opening for WCK. every style has a different way of door opening. and opening this door needs a special power generation to support it. look at the previous post of the Ancestor White Crane, they open the door differently, use different power generation, still using Center line as reference but the approach is totally different.

And we that have lived in America long enough to adopt the functionalist viewpoint know that an extreme attachment to one's ancestors is fantasy and hinders the development of martial skill.



For example, one might find some one doing WCK with Chen Taiji's reel silk power generation. But then, that power generation is not consistence when one needs to get into close body of WCK application strategy. Thus, one knows, Chen's reel silk cant be it.

So you're saying WCK has it's own internals development. I agree. But pretty much every TCMA has it's own unique internals development.



I disagree with lots of WCK researcher who is doing research in the direction of secret society because as we see from the above post across the TCMA, it is the power generation and application strategy which makes the style the style and the key is where are the source of these uniquness. Secret society doesnt solve the problem unless one could pin point where is the source of the art.

So the secret society viewpoint is simply that it went underground with the oppression of the Qing. This is not news. Many martial artists fled to surrounding countries during this time.

The other part of the secret society viewpoint is oral history surrounding a Shaolin connection. At the end of the Ming dynasty, which to my understanding was similar to the Renaissance period in Europe, the southern temples were a gathering place and common ground for the sharing of all southern TCMA. This viewpoint talks of an amalgamation and consolidation of the arts which pulled aspects from many TCMA arts and constructed one based upon efficiency and power generation from the human perspective, not the animal based systems. This perspective is different from yours, not supported by printed history, yet a very viable alternative considering power generation similarities and differences, as well as different shapes and structures in WCK.

This viable alternative you have ridiculed because you think your viewpoint has "evidence". "Evidence" of things prior to 1700 is about as sketchy as it gets.



If some one today found out by evidence ,say, Cheong Ng is the siheng of Fang Chi-Niang, they both learn the White Crane from Chen Yong Hua the top strategies of Tien Tee Hui. and Cheong bring the Crane down to Canton and merge with Taiji to form WCK. For me, that is legitimate. True or not is a different story which needs to be go for further investigation in details. but that is better then telling me, there are 80 version of secret society, there are 10 flags section, there are 400 blood oat. and at the end there is not answer any question at all. that is because we are reseaching a "technology" call WCK we are not researching a "family tree" of people.
The other thing you are forgetting here is why limit this to China history? With the Qing empire, many migrated to other countries. For example, the first TCMA I studied was Vietnamese in origin, 5 animals and Lohan. The founder was a military strategy advisor to Sun Yat Sen with a rich TCMA background, fled to Vietnam, and taught students. There are also WCK roots in Vietnam, Indonesia, and other surrounding areas.

[t_niehoff]

The disconnect here is that "WCK" as I understand it typically does not specifically train kiu sau. The Moy Yat chi sau progression I was exposed to did not. Yet HFY does in the SLT level.

So does your family's teachings teach kiu sau specifically? Please let me know. Perhaps this is another "core signature" of WCK.

The benefits I have personally seen is not getting "jammed up" with my own body parts in live scenarios, such as I see in far too many examples of WCK on youtube.


Of course WCK specifically trains kiu sao, what do you think every single arm action/movement is? They are all kiu sao -- bridge hands. Do you train tan sao? That's a kiu sao -- tan sao is really tan kiu sao. What about bong sao? That is really bong kiu sao.

WCK is a bridge fighting system, IOWS, uses contact/bridges or attached fighting. So how can it not have kiu sao?

You seem to only be thinking of kiu sao as some specific drills or exercises (like what weng chun has and that HFY adopted from weng chun). It's like chi gerk -- all WCK has chi gerk. Not the exercise per se (as Yip's seniors developed) but the elements of using the legs to "stick", to attack the opponent's horse, etc.



And my contention is the more you generalize what you think "signatures" are, and then if you extend this logic to including or excluding different families based upon your personal interpretation and observation of these "signatures", you are being intellectually dishonest.

My view is that there is a WCK core curriculum that comprises both a method and certain specific tools for implementing that method. If there wasn't that commonality, we wouldn't be doing the same art. WCK has certain specific elements that make it WCK, but it is not simply those elements -- which are common to other close-range arts -- but ALSO how they are put together (the "mixture") that make it WCK.

[Hendrik]

The disconnect here is that "WCK" as I understand it typically does not specifically train kiu sau. The Moy Yat chi sau progression I was exposed to did not. Yet HFY does in the SLT level.

WCK goes beyond Kiu Sau as taught/know in other southern TCMA because WCK have included Sensitivity and adaptive changes ability. also that is where WCK has "point within point or move within move" EI instead of one stroke/move is one kiu, WCK always hidden a few other changes and stroke or "half point" within one stroke. Thus, a look a like WCK kiu Sau is not a kiu sau because it has hidden lots of changes and "half point" in it.

Chi Sau means Kiu Sau + sensitivity and adaptive changes ability.


Thus,

Kiu Sau is discrete which Chi Sau is continous.


Kiu Sau is supported by a discrete / fix type of power generation at each of its execution from its start to its end. As for Chi Sau is supported by a continous change type of power generation because there is no start or end.

It is similar to one is digital circuit and the other one is analog circuit.


Thus, WCK doesnt teaches Kiu Sau as in other Southern TCMA such as Hung Gar in Iron Wire set where every kiu sau has one and only one meaning. IMHO




The benefits I have personally seen is not getting "jammed up" with my own body parts in live scenarios, such as I see in far too many examples of WCK on youtube.



You might have a better kung fu then those of others. or more advance then them. However, the catagorization is "discrete" and " continous" instead of who's kung fu or who knows more moves to do something.





And my contention is the more you generalize what you think "signatures" are, and then if you extend this logic to including or excluding different families based upon your personal interpretation and observation of these "signatures", you are being intellectually dishonest.


you certainly could make a case of what you think and see if all WCK lineage or family support that signature you think it is. and no one stop you from doing that.

[Hendrik]

Muy Thai has a much shallower stance than boxing and implements two sides live. So the facing, and much of the power generation have "signatures" that "exist simulatneously" with WCK.


But if I'd start to try to make a case that Muy Thai was the father of WCK and all "legitimate" WCK shows elements of Muy Thai I'd be wrong.

Just like you are.



Different stuffs.
MT and WCK cannot be related because MT and WCK open the door differently.

And Door Opening is a key uniqueness when it comes to TCMA.

In the Emei and WCK case above, the Open door signature is similar, application stratergy and the power generation type conditioning in SLT accross different WCK family from Chan Wah to Ko Loo or Fung Family is similar.





And we that have lived in America long enough to adopt the functionalist viewpoint know that an extreme attachment to one's ancestors is fantasy and hinders the development of martial skill.

The discussion got nothing to do with live in America or ancestors fantasy but a investigation of technical signatures.






So you're saying WCK has it's own internals development. I agree. But pretty much every TCMA has it's own unique internals development.

And that development needs to be identify. That is the reasons signature and signatures needs to be brought up and compare with other TCMA system and investigate.

also, one needs to know exactly what is those signature which is common to all WCK lineages and specific for individual lineages, if we took the search seriously.




So the secret society viewpoint is simply that it went underground with the oppression of the Qing. This is not news. Many martial artists fled to surrounding countries during this time.

These doesnt tell anything technical at all, isnt it?





The other part of the secret society viewpoint is oral history surrounding a Shaolin connection. At the end of the Ming dynasty, which to my understanding was similar to the Renaissance period in Europe, the southern temples were a gathering place and common ground for the sharing of all southern TCMA. This viewpoint talks of an amalgamation and consolidation of the arts which pulled aspects from many TCMA arts and constructed one based upon efficiency and power generation from the human perspective, not the animal based systems.


This type of story is actually problematic and not accord to the chinese history in large scale.

1, from the writing of Ming dynasty we know, there were a few Shao lin in China, and Ming government is using the warrior monk as solder. So, when we speak of which Shao lin is that we need to identify them, because not all shao lin is the same.

2, Chinese TCMA goes through a break through in Ming Dynasty due to the Japanese beat the heck out of Ming army and marial artists..... The chinese is totally lost to the Japanese pirates. So, General Chi Chi-Kuang with his power pull all China martial art/militray art together and refine them. The result is Ming beat the Japanese pirate.
The TCMA at that time is like today's MMA. one could read the millitary books from General Chi Chi-Kuang.

Only with that much power from the gorvenment and many years with lots of resources the Chi Chi-Kuang martial /military art reform can be accomplised.


So, after the fall of ming dynasty, none of the so called Shao lin story has this massive scale of development. and infact, one could see Even the White Crane of Fujian extremely likely to be a product of Chi Chi-kuang's reform, not to mention, Taiji and other arts also carry the signature of this reform.


not to mention, there is a book on Shao lin clarify the story of anti-qing of shaolin are mostly made up. and the only monk who we know which involve in the anti-qing meeting within shao lin is Dong Chan, Dong Chan is a Ming royal family, become a monk trying to revenge, but lost, and give up monk hood, and sadly passed away. Later this monk was linked to founding Chu Gar mantis. and Dong Chan is a different group of anti qing compare with the Tien Tee hui which is Taiwan based and white Crane of Fujian based.

So, if there is a mass scale martial art reform and fine tune, there is only one which was lead by Gen Chi Chi-Kuang. Dong Chan has an attemp in shao lin but aborted. White Crane fleet to Taiwan.



And according to my lineage, SLT was created in Kui Lin after an Emei disciple learn the White Crane of fujian. nothing flamboyant at all.






This perspective is different from yours, not supported by printed history, yet a very viable alternative considering power generation similarities and differences, as well as different shapes and structures in WCK.


As we look at the history of china from different angle we sees this type of history doesnt look likely and also have no solid power generation signature which related to the past. and thus, it becomes a generalization story.




This viable alternative you have ridiculed because you think your viewpoint has "evidence". "Evidence" of things prior to 1700 is about as sketchy as it gets.


From emei 12 zhuang to 1850, we could trace the emei, the Chi Chi-Kuang's reform, the white Crane creation, the Tien Tee hui development, the Taiping heavenly kingdom's rising, the uprising of the red boat opera, the shang hai small knive society uprising.....

We are looking at both macro and micro details. and our search needs only to identify the Application strategy, open door uniquness, and power generation signature. to make the case.

If anyone could present a case based on Shao Lin or Wudang.....etc I am happy to learn.






The other thing you are forgetting here is why limit this to China history? With the Qing empire, many migrated to other countries. For example, the first TCMA I studied was Vietnamese in origin, 5 animals and Lohan. The founder was a military strategy advisor to Sun Yat Sen with a rich TCMA background, fled to Vietnam, and taught students. There are also WCK roots in Vietnam, Indonesia, and other surrounding areas.


It is limited to China because we need to know why WCK WCK.



Finally, my view is very simple, if we dont have the key, the engine of the car cannot be turn on or turn on fully. and thus we need to look closely what is going on.

I am ok if different people present their history differently. and enjoy that.
However, the bottom line of WCK is a martial art , so what is the key to turn it on. and we all know, history no matter how good it sound cannot substitute the key to turn on the engine.

Do I care the answer is from my lineage? I dont. I am only interested in mastering WCK and thus I could learn from anyone who has the key.

[theo]

Finally, my view is very simple, if we dont have the key, the engine of the car cannot be turn on or turn on fully. and thus we need to look closely what is going on.

I am ok if different people present their history differently. and enjoy that.
However, the bottom line of WCK is a martial art , so what is the key to turn it on. and we all know, history no matter how good it sound cannot substitute the key to turn on the engine.

Do I care the answer is from my lineage? I dont. I am only interested in mastering WCK and thus I could learn from anyone who has the key.

i second this. history is great and i like reading everybody's side of it. but i've reexamined my own thinking about what WCK is several times before and found some posts on this forum and others have changed my views in the past. i would welcome any insight from all into the key and "turning the engine on" with an open mind, i will never be the first to say it can't be or shouldn't be without experiencing it myself first. those who have walked before us and were able to turn it on, could we rediscover this and preserve it without the claims of most original or who started what. we can't just start doing chi sau and have it magically happen. there needs to be a method in my opinion.

[t_niehoff]

Different stuffs.
MT and WCK cannot be related because MT and WCK open the door differently.

And Door Opening is a key uniqueness when it comes to TCMA.

In the Emei and WCK case above, the Open door signature is similar, application stratergy and the power generation type conditioning in SLT accross different WCK family from Chan Wah to Ko Loo or Fung Family is similar.


WCK has a method and the tools to implement that method. That totality is what makes it unique, not its components.

Of course how WCK "opens the door" is different than MT -- MT has a different method.



The discussion got nothing to do with live in America or ancestors fantasy but a investigation of technical signatures.


And you keep wanting to say that these "technical signatures" by themselves are unique when they are not. Every single technical signature in WCK can be found in other arts, and not just Emei and white crane.



Do I care the answer is from my lineage? I dont. I am only interested in mastering WCK and thus I could learn from anyone who has the key.

You are talking two different things. One is what is the core curriculum of WCK, those elements/aspects that are common to all lineages/branches of WCK. IOWs, the method and the tools (movement/actions and tactics) that make WCK what it is.

But knowing those will not make you a "master" of WCK -- that just means you know the core curriculum. Knowing the curriculum does not mean you can USE it (in fighting). Skill in WCK comes only from quality sparring, with your skill level depending almost entirely on the amount of quality sparring you do.

[Hendrik]

WCK has a method and the tools to implement that method. That totality is what makes it unique, not its components.

IMHO,
Your statement is contradictory.
It is both the totality and details which makes WCK WCK.





Of course how WCK "opens the door" is different than MT -- MT has a different method.

Yup. Thus, WCK cannot be MT and in fact they are far a part.




And you keep wanting to say that these "technical signatures" by themselves are unique when they are not. Every single technical signature in WCK can be found in other arts, and not just Emei and white crane.

You have a good point however, IMHO, you need to be specific.

IE
If one examine the TCMA both in different style and in the passed 400 years, one sees "Snap joint " power generation is a White Crane of Fujian uniqueness. That is hte signature. When this thing appear in WCK, then what does it means?





You are talking two different things. One is what is the core curriculum of WCK, those elements/aspects that are common to all lineages/branches of WCK. IOWs, the method and the tools (movement/actions and tactics) that make WCK what it is.



To be honest, I dont give a hoot about curriculum of WCK. my bottom line is to turn on the engine of 108 SLT/CK/BJ or the 108 SLT and just that.

Without knowing the uniqueness which I have shared. There is no way to turn the engine on in a minimum.

In general,
let's face it, 90% of the SLT/SNT practice are just wasting time. no nature flow of power but some very superficial and clumpsy brute force practice. Then, some will say, we do this in Taji like, in Fajing like.....etc when what they do is just hand waving or dance . But most of these things doesnt really works and useful. ... So, why are we keep defense these type of stuffs?

one of the major reason WCK get take down is because one becomes so pre occupire in the Chain punch rapid fire or center line direct trust forward or distance keeping. One lost the shielding off, the close body power generation. So, one get take down. does that supprising? nope? because one no longer practice WCK but half WCK.






But knowing those will not make you a "master" of WCK -- that just means you know the core curriculum. Knowing the curriculum does not mean you can USE it (in fighting). Skill in WCK comes only from quality sparring, with your skill level depending almost entirely on the amount of quality sparring you do.


Knowing what those key cores doesnt make one a master. however, knowing not the key cores makes one not practice WCK.

Curriculum is you term, I dont use that since the beginning because I look at WCK in a TCMA prespective. Be it Baji or WCK all needs to satisfy a certain keys to be a different style in TCMA.

If I may suggest is that, look at WCK in the eyes of how the Chinese make TCMA works instead of using your mind set which doesnt cover the story the Chinese traditional communicating.

[t_niehoff]

IMHO,
Your statement is contradictory.
It is both the totality and details which makes WCK WCK.


No. You seem to be arguing that there are unique elements (details) of WCK. There aren't. It is not the elements but how they are combined and used -- the way they are mixed into the totality -- that make it WCK.



Yup. Thus, WCK cannot be MT and in fact they are far a part.


The are very different yet share some common elements (since both fight in the clinch).



You have a good point however, IMHO, you need to be specific.

IE
If one examine the TCMA both in different style and in the passed 400 years, one sees "Snap joint " power generation is a White Crane of Fujian uniqueness. That is hte signature. When this thing appear in WCK, then what does it means?


It means that "snap joint" COULD have come to WCK from white crane or that it came to WCK from another art (that either got it from white crane or developed it independently since "snap joint" ins't unique) or it could mean that "snap joint" is a natural aspect of a certain type of fighting.

Look, if you compare shuai jiao, judo, and cornish wrestling you will find a lot of common elements even though there was no connection between those arts. Why? Because they all invo9lve jacket grappling, and when people grapple with jackets, there is only limited things that work. So naturally, people find those things when they begin jacket grappling and put them into their "systems."



To be honest, I dont give a hoot about curriculum of WCK. my bottom line is to turn on the engine of 108 SLT/CK/BJ or the 108 SLT and just that.

Without knowing the uniqueness which I have shared. There is no way to turn the engine on in a minimum.


There is no "engine". Your analogy is flawed. WCK has a certain way of using its body to DO certain, specific things. To do them requires you use your body in a certain way. The only way to develop your ability to do those things is by doing them.



In general,
let's face it, 90% of the SLT/SNT practice are just wasting time. no nature flow of power but some very superficial and clumpsy brute force practice. Then, some will say, we do this in Taji like, in Fajing like.....etc when what they do is just hand waving or dance . But most of these things doesnt really works and useful. ... So, why are we keep defense these type of stuffs?

one of the major reason WCK get take down is because one becomes so pre occupire in the Chain punch rapid fire or center line direct trust forward or distance keeping. One lost the shielding off, the close body power generation. So, one get take down. does that supprising? nope? because one no longer practice WCK but half WCK.


WCK provides us a method for fighting. To fight using that method, we NEED to have certain, specific skills. Those skills require we use our body (and limbs) in certain ways. Everything begins with the method.



Knowing what those key cores doesnt make one a master. however, knowing not the key cores makes one not practice WCK.


No. If you use the tools of WCK -- no matter how poorly -- you are still doing WCK. You are just doing it poorly.



Curriculum is you term, I dont use that since the beginning because I look at WCK in a TCMA prespective. Be it Baji or WCK all needs to satisfy a certain keys to be a different style in TCMA.


WCK is WCK because is has a specific method and tools (movements/actions and tactics). It doesn't matter what others have or don't have.



If I may suggest is that, look at WCK in the eyes of how the Chinese make TCMA works instead of using your mind set which doesnt cover the story the Chinese traditional communicating.

Who cares what other TCMAs do or don't do? WCK is WCK, and what makes what we do WCK is that we share a commonality across lineages/branches. That commonality is the core curriculum, the method and tools.

[Hendrik]

It means that "snap joint" COULD have come to WCK from white crane or that it came to WCK from another art (that either got it from white crane or developed it independently since "snap joint" ins't unique) or it could mean that "snap joint" is a natural aspect of a certain type of fighting.


Great, based on all the TCMA style in the past 400 years. Find me an alternative Style which uses this type of power generation.






There is no "engine". Your analogy is flawed. WCK has a certain way of using its body to DO certain, specific things. To do them requires you use your body in a certain way. The only way to develop your ability to do those things is by doing them.

Doing WHAT?





WCK provides us a method for fighting. To fight using that method, we NEED to have certain, specific skills. Those skills require we use our body (and limbs) in certain ways. Everything begins with the method.



How Do you know what you DO is WCK?




No. If you use the tools of WCK -- no matter how poorly -- you are still doing WCK. You are just doing it poorly.

How do you know you have all the key tools?





WCK is WCK because is has a specific method and tools (movements/actions and tactics). It doesn't matter what others have or don't have.


Sure, what is that specific method and tools? who define them? where is the source of these tools comes from or evolve from?




Who cares what other TCMAs do or don't do? WCK is WCK, and what makes what we do WCK is that we share a commonality across lineages/branches. That commonality is the core curriculum, the method and tools.

WCK is a TCMA. Thus, to analyze WCK one needs to use TCMA development mind set.

WCK is not WCK if one doesnt know why WCK is WCK.

[GlennR]

WCK is a TCMA. Thus, to analyze WCK one needs to use TCMA development mind set.

WCK is not WCK if one doesnt know why WCK is WCK.[/QUOTE]



And this is where you keep going in circles. You ask the forum (in your original post which you deleted)why WCK is WCK, jump on board this post, and after many good incisive contributions from many people you still drag it back into your way of thinking using the whole "400 yo TCMA i know better argument" ....... youve been doing it for the last 17 pages!

So why not start a post "This is what i believe makes WCK WCK" and i , for one, would respect you a a lot more for that

Regards

Glenn

[Hendrik]

WCK is a TCMA. Thus, to analyze WCK one needs to use TCMA development mind set.

WCK is not WCK if one doesnt know why WCK is WCK.



And this is where you keep going in circles. You ask the forum (in your original post which you deleted)why WCK is WCK, jump on board this post, and after many good incisive contributions from many people you still drag it back into your way of thinking using the whole "400 yo TCMA i know better argument" ....... youve been doing it for the last 17 pages!

So why not start a post "This is what i believe makes WCK WCK" and i , for one, would respect you a a lot more for that

Regards

Glenn[/QUOTE]

You still dont see my points.

My points are:

1, This is the TCMA way.
2, this is what I found out WCK is WCK.
3, This is where what I found out source from.
4, I have done a past 400 years search, and I dont claim that is the ultimate, If anyone has a more detail search and different perspective, brought it up for investigation and discussion.



No one needs to buy what I present. and Everyone is open to contribute.
However, when it comes to personal attack and out of the TCMA way that is off topic.

I explain from using Baji example to MT's door opening to shwo TCMA has a way of classified things which is not the same with the western thinking way. It is not to defend myself but to open the window so that one could see what is going on with TCMA view instead of trapping in the western view, western speculation and then claim that is WCK which cause off set.


As for the Shao lin myth, evidence in Ming history have shown that only General Chi Chi-kuang has the power and resources to reform TCMA big time with a result of defeating the Japanese pirate in a very MMA style like TCMA. That is not what one expect if one believe in the Shaws brother Shao lin type of burning of Shao lin and martial art creation. The secrete society were in the run and fighting, they dont have time to develop advance martial art. Look at the White Crane of Fujian, it was developed before the anti-qing and fleet with the Tien Tee Hui to taiwan.


Now, if one cant get any more different perspective with supportive evidence from the past 400 years search. then what is WCK is likely to be?

Again, I dont say I know it all. I am saying we will be forced to the conclusion if there is no further evidence.

Again, back to the first post of this thread, why is wck wck compare with all other southern TCMA?


Sure, it has been 17 pages, but this 17 pages might save some one from wasting a life time practicing and go no where.


I might not words or using smooth sentences, but believe me. the intention is simply to discuss and iron out things.

[t_niehoff]

Great, based on all the TCMA style in the past 400 years. Find me an alternative Style which uses this type of power generation.


This is because you look at the way it is taught, not how it is done in FIGHTING, and mistake the curriculum with the subject matter. You don't know how it is done in fighting because you don't fight.



Doing WHAT?


To control your opponent while striking him using the WCK tools. There is a reason that the method, the tools, and the mechanics all "fit" together -- they all need one another to function; they are like the cogs of a watch.



How Do you know what you DO is WCK?


Because I am using the method and the tools that have come down from our ancestors.



How do you know you have all the key tools?


That is a WRONG question. The right question is how do you know that you have the fundamentals. And you know that you have the fundamentals when you can implement the method using the tools.



Sure, what is that specific method and tools? who define them? where is the source of these tools comes from or evolve from?


We can look across lineages/branches of legit older branches and see a commonality both in method and in tools. I don't care where they came from -- and I don't think we can ever know. All we can do is speculate. All we know with any degree of likelihood is WCK originated on the Red Boats. What does it matter is the founders practiced white crane, emei, hakka, or whatever?



WCK is a TCMA. Thus, to analyze WCK one needs to use TCMA development mind set.

WCK is not WCK if one doesnt know why WCK is WCK.

Sure we can. WCK is a nam kuen that originated on the Red Boats circa early 1800s and has a specific method and tool (that is common to all lineages/branches descending from the Red Boats). I don't need TCMA "development mind" to know what is WCK.

[Hendrik]

This is because you look at the way it is taught, not how it is done in FIGHTING, and mistake the curriculum with the subject matter. You don't know how it is done in fighting because you don't fight.

Dont tell me the 400 years of White Crane of fujian which support the battle of Ming to the Taiping Heavenly kingdom uprising is based on talks.

I fight or not fighting is independent from a proven Style which was used in battle field over and over again.






To control your opponent while striking him using the WCK tools. There is a reason that the method, the tools, and the mechanics all "fit" together -- they all need one another to function; they are like the cogs of a watch.

Sure, so what is that tool, strategy, conditioning? those all have to have a clear check list and know where they fuse together and source from.

You have never provide any tangible concept on the above yet.




Because I am using the method and the tools that have come down from our ancestors.

Who knows? everyone will say the samething.





Sure we can. WCK is a nam kuen that originated on the Red Boats circa early 1800s and has a specific method and tool (that is common to all lineages/branches descending from the Red Boats). I don't need TCMA "development mind" to know what is WCK.


Even Nam Kuen got to follow the TCMA tradition. Some of so called Nam Kuen is just village crude art which is a partial art.

[Wayfaring]

Dont tell me the 400 years of White Crane of fujian which support the battle of Ming to the Taiping Heavenly kingdom uprising is based on talks.

I fight or not fighting is independent from a proven Style which was used in battle field over and over again.

It's always fun to point out to people studying an art originating in the 1700's who talk about styles being "proven on a battle field" this link:

http://www.history-of-armor.com

[jesper]

Dont tell me the 400 years of White Crane of fujian which support the battle of Ming to the Taiping Heavenly kingdom uprising is based on talks.


And in the last 100 years their hasnt been a big need for the "0ld" type of fighting so people have "improved" on the technics, theoretically.