Challenge for Combat SC

[MightyB]

As a preface, I'd like to say I Love Combat SC... now here's the "challenge" part. How hard would it be to develop a basic throwing/counter throwing syllabus that all TCMA could adopt and start practicing regardless of their style?

And then add about the blue belt level of BJJ techs with the intent being not to win a BJJ or grappling match, just enough techniques for how a TCMA guy can get back up if a guy's trying to hold him down.

[MysteriousPower]

As a preface, I'd like to say I Love Combat SC... now here's the "challenge" part. How hard would it be to develop a basic throwing/counter throwing syllabus that all TCMA could adopt and start practicing regardless of their style?

And then add about the blue belt level of BJJ techs with the intent being not to win a BJJ or grappling match, just enough techniques for how a TCMA guy can get back up if a guy's trying to hold him down.


This would be a great idea. The problem is that many tcma teachers believe and still teach that "everything is in the forms" and spend a lot of time doing forms.

[bawang]

teaching kung fu for fighting doesnt make money. theres lots of good teachers without a single student because guess what, supply and demand. most kungf fu people now are 30 to 60 year old aging people who miss the 70s and take kung fu for nalstalgia.
my first teacher was working in a restarurant at 50 years old. shamefully to say i also abandoned him because i was young and ignorant about kung fu.

real kung fu should be given freely. spirit of kung fu is worth more than 50 bucks a month to kiss the ass of some 40 year old crackers with arthritis and all kinds of weird diseases who misses the old days . thats mental and spiritual castration.

the bruce lee exploitaion days are long over. if u wanna make money move too mma. the gracies hand out certs for seminars now. stop exploiting kung fu. how much is ur soul worth? the spirit of a warrior isnt sold its given freely and earned.

[MasterKiller]

This would be a great idea. The problem is that many tcma teachers believe and still teach that "everything is in the forms" and spend a lot of time doing forms.

Forms are mostly throws. Take the throws out and train them.

[MysteriousPower]

Forms are mostly throws. Take the throws out and train them.


The truest words I have read all day

[MightyB]

Forms are mostly throws. Take the throws out and train them.

IMO this doesn't work... take osoto gari. It's the big reaping throw of Judo. A lot of TCMA forms have this motion in them.

In Judo - it's the first throw you learn and often one the most difficult to pull off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nESyIcul344 I always tell young Judoka that the trick is to be "cheek to cheek with your nose to your toes". Get in tight and drive... anyway... the forms don't do this or highlight this. People would step out and not get tossed.

If they drilled it after having basic SC - they'd do it right.

---

Besides - basic SC training looks bad @ss. Why wouldn't someone want to learn it?

[MasterKiller]

the forms don't do this or highlight this. People would step out and not get tossed. That's what the teacher is for.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

As a preface, I'd like to say I Love Combat SC... now here's the "challenge" part. How hard would it be to develop a basic throwing/counter throwing syllabus that all TCMA could adopt and start practicing regardless of their style?

And then add about the blue belt level of BJJ techs with the intent being not to win a BJJ or grappling match, just enough techniques for how a TCMA guy can get back up if a guy's trying to hold him down.

This would be a great idea, but people have to want to change who are going to change. In other words, "teh deadlyz" will say they do not need such a program because the all mighty drop into a horse stance and elbow the back of the head is still the rage with them. Most who are open minded to this kind of additional cross training and learning probably already are.

[MightyB]

That's what the teacher is for.

Dude you moderate - haven't you been reading the last two-million posts?

I think getting some SC training methods into traditional schools would clear up oh-so-much cr@p.

[bawang]

how do u motivate a 30 year old man child to that kind of training?

[EarthDragon]

our system 8 step praying mantis has Shuai chiao , it is taught in the mid levels and working incredibly well with our joinlocking and applications.

However it was aded by someone whom MASTERED 8 step over several decaeds of constand and daily pratice. This is the problem no adays before you can change a complete system you have to know it backwards and forwards hence (master)

If you havent mastered it its not your right to change it. personally you can add whatever yo want to your training but to make a world wide change and teach it this new way will never happen unless the lineage holder/owner of the system and has mastered this system does it.

[EarthDragon]

here is a list of the SC throws in 8 step mantis, feel free to take these look them up and have someone teach them to you
5847

[YouKnowWho]

The throwing skill can be integrated into any style without change in the original style. It's not difficult to get a SC or Judo book and pick up 8 or 10 throws and train with your partner daily. The difficulty is not the throw itself but how to use kicks, punches to create a chance for your throw. Since none SC or none Judo guys will have the advantage of not familiar with SC jacket of Judo Gi, the no-gi throws will be much easier for them to pick up (many SC and Judo guys have problem to switch from gi to no-gi).

It will be a good idea that in your free sparring, you try to achieve a head lock, under hook, over hook, waist hold, bear hug, ... If you can do that with your boxing gloves on, you are already 75% there. The rest of the 25% is just to let your body weight and gravity to do the job for you.

[MightyB]

It will be a good idea that in your free sparring, you try to achieve a head lock, under hook, over hook, waist hold, bear hug, ... If you can do that with your boxing gloves on, you are already 75% there. The rest of the 25% is just to let your body weight and gravity to do the job for you.

See - this is what I'm talking about - we should have a set of standards that schools on this board could adopt and that people on this board would agree to and call those schools "KFM Approved Fighting School" :)

[MightyB]

here is a list of the SC throws in 8 step mantis, feel free to take these look them up and have someone teach them to you
5847

But - again - I'm just going to say it - all systems of TCMA can claim similar moves. They can show them in their forms and point them out in old manuscripts and everything...

The application is where they have problems. I tell people to try the throws against each other in a friendly judo style match at your school. I have a feeling that they'd learn a lot about the throws by doing that. Things like body positioning, off balancing your opponent, when to execute the throw- etc. Do that for like three weeks and it changes everything.

[MasterKiller]

See - this is what I'm talking about - we should have a set of standards that schools on this board could adopt and that people on this board would agree to and call those schools "KFM Approved Fighting School" :)

Or, you could just do the throws in your style. You know. The ones your teacher is supposed to teach you.

[MightyB]

Or, you could just do the throws in your style. You know. The ones your teacher is supposed to teach you.

Again - haven't you been following the board at all? You're supposed to be a mod :D

---

Seriously - Liang Shou Yu attempted to create a set of standards for what he called International San Shou Dao a couple of years back. Nothing to hard, but all solid recommendations. I thought it was a great idea. I'd like to see something like that revisited then there wouldn't be so much of this my MMA is bigger than your MMA stuff that we see a lot of now.

[YouKnowWho]

Liang Shou Yu attempted to create a set of standards for what he called International San Shou Dao a couple of years back.
Those combos used in San Shou had already been created in US almost 30 years ago. Here are couple combat SC combos to share:

This one is the easiest one. The set up is easy and the throw is also easy. It's called "knee seize" which is very similiar to the BJJ/wrestler single leg. The only difference is you will still maintain your "mobility" after your throw (you can run like hell if you want to).

http://johnswang.com/Paul_knee_seize.wmv

This one has some interest set up, round house kick, side kick, under hook, bear hug, knee strike, and outer hook.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

[MightyB]

Those combos used in San Shou had already been created in US almost 30 years ago. Here are couple combat SC combos to share:

This one is the easiest one. The set up is easy and the throw is also easy. It's called "knee seize" which is very similiar to the BJJ/wrestler single leg. The only difference is you will still maintain your "mobility" after your throw (you can run like hell if you want to).

http://johnswang.com/Paul_knee_seize.wmv

This one has some interest set up, round house kick, side kick, under hook, bear hug, knee strike, and outer hook.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

Nice! I think I'll have to look more closely at the organized discipline of San Shou.

Maybe that's our TCMA answer staring us right in the face like an angry monkey.

[Knifefighter]

here is a list of the SC throws in 8 step mantis, feel free to take these look them up and have someone teach them to you
5847


Having a list of throws in your style means nothing. Practicing them full on against resisting opponents is what determines whether or not your style actually "has" them.

Of course, any style that actually has the practitioners doing full on training with each other will probably evolve more than simply 40 throws.

Even more importantly, someone who is doing this type of training will know the counters to the throws, as well as the counters to the counters.

You can always tell the people who don't practice full-on. They talk about the throws, but you never hear them talk about the counters and the counters to the counters that actually set up the real throw.

[Knifefighter]

Those combos used in San Shou had already been created in US almost 30 years ago. Here are couple combat SC combos to share:

This one is the easiest one. The set up is easy and the throw is also easy. It's called "knee seize" which is very similiar to the BJJ/wrestler single leg. The only difference is you will still maintain your "mobility" after your throw (you can run like hell if you want to).

http://johnswang.com/Paul_knee_seize.wmv

This one has some interest set up, round house kick, side kick, under hook, bear hug, knee strike, and outer hook.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

Notice how in the second clip where they were actually fighting full contact, they both went to the ground. The reason the "BJJ/wrestler single leg" goes to the ground is because, more often than not, that's what HAS to happen when you are going full force.

People who don't train full out against resisting opponents don't realize this.

[YouKnowWho]

They talk about the throws, but you never hear them talk about the counters and the counters to the counters that actually set up the real throw.
Agree 100% there.

Understand one throw is not enough. You have to understand counters and counters to those counters. It's like a tree that start from one root and branch out. Usually when you train 1 throw, you have to train many other throws that's associated to it so you can change angle according to your opponent's resistence or counter. for example, when you apply front cut (Osoto Gari) and try to throw your opponent backward,

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

and if your opponent resists, you can change your front cut into leg block (O Guruma) and try to throw him forward (no need to change your hold),

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/oguruma.htm

and if your opponent resists again, you can change your leg block into ...

Now you have a sub-tree that deal with your opponen's different resistences (resistences are your opponent moves his body to against your force). There are many sub-trees that deal with your opponent's counters as well (counters are your opponent escapes out of your throw and then apllies his throw on you).

Here is a good example that the moment that you get involved with the throwing art, you will no longer have time to train your forms. Those "trees" will occupy all your training time for the rest of your life, and you will have a "forest" to build.

[Hardwork108]

our system 8 step praying mantis has Shuai chiao , it is taught in the mid levels and working incredibly well with our joinlocking and applications.

However it was aded by someone whom MASTERED 8 step over several decaeds of constand and daily pratice. This is the problem no adays before you can change a complete system you have to know it backwards and forwards hence (master)

If you havent mastered it its not your right to change it. personally you can add whatever yo want to your training but to make a world wide change and teach it this new way will never happen unless the lineage holder/owner of the system and has mastered this system does it.

There is a lot of wisdom in that post.

I have said it a hundred times, for one to change a given system, one must master it first. That means understand it on multi levels.

So often one sees people nowadays, who cross train to "fill in gaps" that do NOT exist in their core TCMA system. Why? Because, sometimes through no fault of their own, they have not found authentic training. Other times, the fault is their for not having the personal development to enable them to comprehend the reasons behind the TCMA methodologies, meaning that they drop out and go to the local boxing gym.

Anyway, to justify their clueless cross training, they disrespectfully criticise and demean their core art[s] of Kung Fu, not to mention that they do so, on the World Wide Web, therefore help spread misinformation about the TCMAs, to people who may be considering to take the kung fu path.

Unfortunately, some of these clueless characters go on to become system founders, of "improved" or "modernized" kung fu. Others, become "MMA is Best" preachers. However, the art(s) of kung fu that they have NOT mastered remains constant!

[Knifefighter]

There is a lot of wisdom in that post.

I have said it a hundred times, for one to change a given system, one must master it first. That means understand it on multi levels.

So often one sees people nowadays, who cross train to "fill in gaps" that do NOT exist in their core TCMA system. Why? Because, sometimes through no fault of their own, they have not found authentic training. Other times, the fault is their for not having the personal development to enable them to comprehend the reasons behind the TCMA methodologies, meaning that they drop out and go to the local boxing gym.

Anyway, to justify their clueless cross training, they disrespectfully criticise and demean their core art[s] of Kung Fu, not to mention that they do so, on the World Wide Web, therefore help spread misinformation about the TCMAs, to people who may be considering to take the kung fu path.

Unfortunately, some of these clueless characters go on to become system founders, of "improved" or "modernized" kung fu. Others, become "MMA is Best" preachers. However, the art(s) of kung fu that they have NOT mastered remains constant!

LOL @ "Hardwork" and her "real" kung fu.

Personally, I like Joe Rogan's take on you and people like you who have the goods on the "real" kung fu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE

[EarthDragon]

HD, you are excatly right, theres reasons that for the last 800 years of said kung fu style it doesnt contain certan elements, but when a sport comes to birth, people decided thier system is inferior an they must add such and such.

WC has no footwork, so when do you decided that its lacking and add your own footwork into it? you cannot this is my point, if you are not getting the right training in your style then switch styles, dont try to reinvent the wheel, just change the vehicle.

I would also like to say unless your are intertesed in sport fighting thentrain for that specifically, however there are many people, that will not have a REAL fight in thier lives, and do like sport fights, so why would they need to add anything to what they train.

As someone said about knowing counters, thsi is very true adn it takes a long time to understand throwing dynamics and leadin's to exacute the throw, this is exactly what i was talking about when I sadi unless you have mastered your art it would be most diffucult and
you would end up with some halfa$$ed techniques that dont gell with what you alredy know

[YouKnowWho]

if you are not getting the right training in your style then switch styles, dont try to reinvent the wheel, just change the vehicle.
You can't abandon your

- boxing just because it doesn't have hip throw.
- Judo just because it doesn't have flying knee.
- MT just because it doesn't have single leg.
- Longfist just because it doesn't have ground game.

There is no complete system on earth. Every style will have something missing in their system.

If your rich, beautify, and cook well wife is not good in bed, don't get divorce, find yourself a good in bed mistress instead. Divoice will not be the solution. A girl who is rich, beautiful, cook well, and good in bed just does not exist on this planet. A tea pot will need a set of tea cups surround it and that's for sure. :D


why would they need to add anything to what they train.
I had a MT training partner when I was young. One day he used his "flying knee" on me. It was so cool and I wanted it. I spent the whole night to train it so next morning my flying knee was as good as his. I then told my MT friend that CMA has "flying knee" too. :D

[EarthDragon]

youknowwho,
my point was that if you arent getting what you want out of the style your in then find a style that suits you better, dont take it upon yourself to add it to something else based on a personal tastes. your anaolgy of cheating is not the answer.


I spent the whole night to train it so next morning my flying knee was as good as his
so you spent a WHOLE night on a techniqe and in the morning it was as good as your teachers? LMAO

[YouKnowWho]

your anaolgy of cheating is not the answer.
You may call it "cheating" but I prefer to call it, "收歸國有 (Shou Gui Guo You) - all MA skills belong to CMA".


so you spent a WHOLE night on a techniqe and in the morning it was as good as your teachers? LMAO
May be there was a bit exaggration there. :)

If you have a good double jumping kick foundation, to modify your double jumping kick into a flying knee is not that hard at all.

I have heard that Bruce Lee spent a whole night to train his turn hook kick, and next morning his turn hook kick was as good as his TKD friend's. If you have a good foundation in 360 degree backward floor sweep, and also have good leg flexibility, it's not that difficult to modify your backward floor sweep into a turn hook kick.

To steal a single move is not that difficult. To steal "strategy" from a style will be much harder.

[TenTigers]

As a preface, I'd like to say I Love Combat SC... now here's the "challenge" part. How hard would it be to develop a basic throwing/counter throwing syllabus that all TCMA could adopt and start practicing regardless of their style?

And then add about the blue belt level of BJJ techs with the intent being not to win a BJJ or grappling match, just enough techniques for how a TCMA guy can get back up if a guy's trying to hold him down.
That is similar to how I set up my curriculum. We also spend a good amount on breakfalls. Front, back, side,shoulder roll, etc.
When I was training at a former Sifu's school, only myslef and two other training bros there had any falling/throwing experience. We used to take each other down all the time. No one else in the school knew even a basic breakfall.
I think you are doing a serious diservice to your students if yo do not teach them to fall safely.
"You may never get into a fight, but you will always fall."
Beginners learn a basic leg reap on day one. Later followed by front and back sweeps, and hip and shoulder throws. Nothing fancy,upper and lower body controls. Let them work on that for awhile until it becomes solid. No need to over complicate things.
My grappling is (thanks to folks here like MK on the forum's suggestions) first learn the basic positions, mount, side mount, guard,etc,transitions, escapes, reversals, followed by basic submissions from each position, and again escapses, reversals.
Again, nothing fancy, nothing too complex, just a firm foundation.
Then roll. lather rinse repeat.
Is this what you were referring to?

[EarthDragon]

youknow who

May be there was a bit exaggration there.
LOl no worries mang


If you have a good double jumping kick foundation, to modify your double jumping kick into a flying knee is not that hard at all.

modification and owning a tech are much different. I am old school and still stick to the do it at least 1000 X before you can begin understand it mentailty. Nothing comes fast in kung fu.


I have heard that Bruce Lee spent a whole night to train his turn hook kick, and next morning his turn hook kick was as good as his TKD friend's.

well this is a story and prob made up one to boot, but if it is the least bit of truth in it, heres another angle, perhaps his buddy's hook kick wanst that good to begin with?

mightB
Is the reason you are looking to add stuff to your style because you feel it lacks this certain aspect only? or to keep up with the new MMA fad?
I ask because if your style is lacking, ANYTHING then why not add these aspects as well, ie herbology, anatomy, join locking, IP, qigong, etc etc

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Another thing that would help is having more Chinese Martial Arts tournaments with San Shou and Shuai Jiao divisions for competition. I may be wrong in this but it seems there are more tournaments focused on open hand forms, weapon forms, push hands, and continuous sparring which is not the same as San Shou competition. Hell, I just checked the calendar for here on KFM and did not see one tournament in the next few months that had either division. Just saying.

[Hardwork108]

HD, you are excatly right, theres reasons that for the last 800 years of said kung fu style it doesnt contain certan elements, but when a sport comes to birth, people decided thier system is inferior an they must add such and such.

Sports Competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs, which were never designed for the sports arena to start with.


WC has no footwork, so when do you decided that its lacking and add your own footwork into it? you cannot this is my point, if you are not getting the right training in your style then switch styles, dont try to reinvent the wheel, just change the vehicle.

I believe that sometimes when having studied properly one's own TCMA style, and coming to the conclusion that something that is missing, one can look for answers in other lineages of the same style, or even in related styles of TCMAs, instead of perhaps training in other methodologies which may have contradicting concepts or principles to one's own core style of Kung fu.

For example, the Mainland Chinese style of Wing Chun in which I have experience in has pretty good foot work, it also has many hand and leg strikes, together with grappling/Chin-na, and even some ground training, that I have not come across in the Hong Kong based schools that I have seen.

I am sure that one can do the same in Northern Mantis, that is, find useful variations between different lineages that can enrich one's own TCMA practice and fighting arsenal.




As someone said about knowing counters, thsi is very true adn it takes a long time to understand throwing dynamics and leadin's to exacute the throw, this is exactly what i was talking about when I sadi unless you have mastered your art it would be most diffucult and
you would end up with some halfa$$ed techniques that dont gell with what you alredy know

Agreed 100%.

[YouKnowWho]

If we can train our striking art the same way as we train our throwing art (learn 1 move, counters for that move, and counters for those counters), we may have better result in our striking art development. For example, when we train our hook punch, we need to know that our opponent will most likely dodge under it. A back fist on top of your opponent's head will be a good counter for the counter. If your opponent blocks that back fist, an upper cut will be good counter for that counter too. This is why in CMA, the hook punch always trained along with back fist and upper cut. This combo even exists in the Mantis 乱接(Luan Jie) form. This is one good reason to learn "form" so you don't have to find it out by yourself in sparring many years later.

[RedJunkRebel]

Sports Competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs, which were never designed for the sports arena to start with.

Totally agreed.

[YouKnowWho]

Sports Competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs, which were never designed for the sports arena to start with.

"Sport" can help you to advance to your final "combat" goal. The only difference between "sport" and "combat" is you apply legal moves in "sport" but you apply illegal moves in "combat". All the set up, entering, ... are still the same. Only the "finish" are different.

In "sport" when you opponent taps out, you let him go. In "combat" when your opponent taps out, you still kill him. How much difference can that be?

[Hardwork108]

"Sport" can help you to advance to your final "combat" goal. The only difference between "sport" and "combat" is you apply legal moves in "sport" but you apply illegal moves in "combat". All the set up, entering, ... are still the same. Only the "finish" are different.
I agree with you, up to a point, as sport fighting has obvious benefits from a fighting point of view.

As I stated, I believe that sports competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs. I did not say that they did not have their uses.

IMHO, the problem with the TCMAs is not based on the fact that they do not sports fight, but that it is based on unqualified sifus, teaching incompletely, stuff that they have made up along the way, resulting in the mediocracy that we see all over the place, including in this forum.

Unfortunately, these unqualified and conmen "sifus" are in the majority. iMHO, this is the real problem with the TCMAs, and not the fact that they do not fight in sports competitions.

Obviously, there is no denying that there are manifestations of TCMAs in contact fighting tournaments, for example in San da competitions, but that is not my point.

I believe that there is a difference in mindset and the techniques that go with those mindsets. That is all.:)


In "sport" when you opponent taps out, you let him go. In "combat" when your opponent taps out, you still kill him. How much difference can that be?

I believe that in real life, it may be all over before tapping, and that is related to the different mindset. Again, I am not saying that sports fighters cannot fight for real, or anything like that, as that would be silly of me.

IMHO, it is a question of mindset and the techniques that are available for each mindset. That is, techniques are limited when used in a sporting context, as compared to no rules mindset training, while using techniques that would be illegal in the sporting arena.

Of course, contact fighting practice should be present in the training curriculum for all TCMA-ists for obvious reasons, however, I still believe that sports competitions are not necessarily a bench mark for improving the state of TCMAs today.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I agree with you, up to a point, as sport fighting has obvious benefits from a fighting point of view.

As I stated, I believe that sports competitions are not necessarily the best bench marks for improving the TCMAs. I did not say that they did not have their uses.

IMHO, the problem with the TCMAs is not based on the fact that they do not sports fight, but that it is based on unqualified sifus, teaching incompletely, stuff that they have made up along the way, resulting in the mediocracy that we see all over the place, including in this forum.

Unfortunately, these unqualified and conmen "sifus" are in the majority. iMHO, this is the real problem with the TCMAs, and not the fact that they do not fight in sports competitions.

Obviously, there is no denying that there are manifestations of TCMAs in contact fighting tournaments, for example in San da competitions, but that is not my point.

I believe that there is a difference in mindset and the techniques that go with those mindsets. That is all.:)



I believe that in real life, it may be all over before tapping, and that is related to the different mindset. Again, I am not saying that sports fighters cannot fight for real, or anything like that, as that would be silly of me.

IMHO, it is a question of mindset and the techniques that are available for each mindset. That is, techniques are limited when used in a sporting context, as compared to no rules mindset training, while using techniques that would be illegal in the sporting arena.

Of course, contact fighting practice should be present in the training curriculum for all TCMA-ists for obvious reasons, however, I still believe that sports competitions are not necessarily a bench mark for improving the state of TCMAs today.

If this is the case, please give me an example of a training method that is better than fighting someone at 100 percent, full contact with limited rules. This is one of the major problems with the "state" of TCMA as many describe it. HW you and many others like to discredit sport fighting but the bottom line is it is an excellent training tool and testing ground. When you train with your Sifu or classmates/training partners there will always be a certain level of compliance and even when sparring hard there will be some give because they are your training partners and many are your friends.

When you fight in a full contact environment, be it MMA, San Shou, Muay Thai, Boxing, ect, ect, the guy across the ring/cage doesn't give a sh**it about you. He wants to take your head off, knock you out, tap you out, and look good doing it. Do you see what I am getting at? You can ramble on about sport fighting not being real but unless your going out and getting in fights with real, trained fighters on the street with no rules on a regular basis this is the best training and testing method one can have, period. I would love to see San Shou and Shuai Jiao become the standard for Kung Fu and not the minority. If and when this happens, you will see a completely different outlook on TCMA.

[MightyB]

mightB
Is the reason you are looking to add stuff to your style because you feel it lacks this certain aspect only? or to keep up with the new MMA fad?
I ask because if your style is lacking, ANYTHING then why not add these aspects as well, ie herbology, anatomy, join locking, IP, qigong, etc etc

I was accepted as one of eight disciples of Chung - Just knowing that about me should say a lot about my Mantis ability. Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense ;) ). Now I've never been afraid of using my real name, so ask the person who you were so in awe of attending his seminar and getting your picture taken with if Kurt from Michigan is any good at mantis. - I'm only putting this out there because I hate the false argument that too many TCMA-ers fall into which is "you must not be studying the realz kung fu 'cuz if you had you would be the shiznit and wouldn't need anything else." My grandmaster cross trained styles even my Sifu crosstraines when he finds people worthy of teaching him something. It's not a sign of weakness to cross train, rather it's a sign that you're secure in your system. Insecurity leads to sheltering and close-mindedness.

Anyway - like many of you - I'm tired of too much MMA is better talk... even though sports fu-ers have a point. Too much of the so called realz kung fu ain't working when put into a pressure test. I'm one to explore why not? I also feel that it's our obligation to find out why not and fix it. I personally think a sports base level of training is probably the solution. Not sports based - but a "base level" of sports training. Maybe it's the San Da basic curriculem with a little BJJ. Maybe it's something different. Just like the Chin Wu said you have to master the Chin Wu basic curriculem before you chose the style you were going to specialize in at the Wu (Eagle Claw, Mantis, or Tai Chi). I think we should develop a sports combat standard level of training before we get into the realz TCMA.

TenTigers - that was exactly what I was referring to.

[MightyB]

Here's my story. About 10 years ago, I was a young hot shot TCMA'er who decided to get into the San Shou ring. Unfortunately I went against a student many years my junior who sport trained at a great school in Cleveland (one of what ILKMFD calls a true fight school). This guy destroyed me - at that moment - I didn't blame the system because the system's great and my Sifu is awesome - I looked internally and asked myself what could I do to get better. Things like getting better sparring partners became paramount - adding Judo to work on throwing - working out with the best people I can find - entering more competitions - and now I've added BJJ. I've already warned my wife that even at the ripe old age of 36, I'll probably do at least one MMA event next year (too many of our guys are winning for me not to get in on it - and you only live once - plus it makes a great story for me to retell when I live in a retirement home many years from now).

[EarthDragon]

mightb

I was accepted as one of eight disciples of Chung - Just knowing that about me should say a lot about my Mantis ability. Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense

really dude? I am 6th generation under shyun kwon long what is that supposed to mean? we are tougher becuse of it?
you havent practied mantis in 7 years but your one of the top in the nation? LOL what brought you to this conclusion?

as far as going to meet Raymond Fogg yes I was honered to be invited. Just as I was honnerd to meet many other mantis practionores like ad hsu and branden Li, , do you think they hopld you on a pedastal cuz your the top manti guy in the nation? LMAO I am gong to ask this on the mantis board and see if others agree with you OK

[MightyB]

mightb


really dude? I am 6th generation under shyun kwon long what is that supposed to mean? we are tougher becuse of it?
you havent practied mantis in 7 years but your one of the top in the nation? LOL what brought you to this conclusion?

as far as going to meet Raymond Fogg yes I was honered to be invited. Just as I was honnerd to meet many other mantis practionores like ad hsu and branden Li, , do you think they hopld you on a pedastal cuz your the top manti guy in the nation? LMAO I am gong to ask this on the mantis board and see if others agree with you OK

You missed my point entirely. Read slowly for comprehension - Too many TCMA-ers say that people who cross train do it because they've never seen the realz kung fu. That is not the case at all. Many people have seen the realz kung fu and still choose to cross train - so I say stop using that as an argument as to why we shouldn't look at having some type of base level of sports training. I think that people like Master Wang and the Combat SC association have probably the best grasp on what this should be because they've been doing it the longest using TCMA techniques and methods.

[MightyB]

mightb

do you think they hopld you on a pedastal cuz your the top manti guy in the nation? LMAO I am gong to ask this on the mantis board and see if others agree with you OK

Never said I was the top - just in the upper percentage ;) and heck - 2/3rds of those who post on the mantis board wouldn't know the realz mantis if it bit them in the arse. :D

-yes I did just use the "you wouldn't know the realz kung fu argument", ha ha yeah take that!

[MasterKiller]

Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense


Here's my story. About 10 years ago, I was a young hot shot TCMA'er who decided to get into the San Shou ring. Unfortunately I went against a student many years my junior who sport trained at a great school in Cleveland (one of what ILKMFD calls a true fight school). This guy destroyed me - at that moment - I didn't blame the system because the system's great and my Sifu is awesome - I looked internally and asked myself what could I do to get better. Things like getting better sparring partners became paramount - adding Judo to work on throwing - working out with the best people I can find - entering more competitions - and now I've added BJJ. I've already warned my wife that even at the ripe old age of 36, I'll probably do at least one MMA event next year (too many of our guys are winning for me not to get in on it - and you only live once - plus it makes a great story for me to retell when I live in a retirement home many years from now).

Oh the irony.....

You are Kurt Baringer, correct?

[MightyB]

Oh the irony.....

You are Kurt Baringer, correct?

Yes. Like I said, I don't hide who I am because I don't feel I have to.

[MasterKiller]

Yes. Like I said, I don't hide who I am because I don't feel I have to.

I'd love to see what "one of the top mantis guys in the country" looks like sparring. Where's the videos?

[MightyB]

I'd love to see what "one of the top mantis guys in the country" looks like sparring. Where's the videos?

Dude - it was bad - I went out all traditional in a sport ring- the guy destroyed me. I don't know if there is video, but he was in my mind like fighting Ali. You know it's bad when you think "ok, I can't reach him because his hands are too good - so I closed the distance to try and throw him" and he nailed me with an uchi mata makikomi. It was a great learning experience though.

That was probably the greatest learning moment in my MA career - that's why I strongly advocate sports MA early on in anyone's MA career.

Man did he kick my arse.

[MasterKiller]

Dude - it was bad - I went out all traditional in a sport ring- the guy destroyed me. I don't know if there is video, but he was in my mind like fighting Ali. You know it's bad when you think "ok, I can't reach him because his hands are too good - so I closed the distance to try and throw him" and he nailed me with an uchi mata makikomi. It was a great learning experience though.

That was probably the greatest learning moment in my MA career - that's why I strongly advocate sports MA early on in anyone's MA career.

Man did he kick my arse.

That was 10 years ago. Being one of the top mantis players in the country, I would naturally assume you have some other footage somewhere, even just class sparring.

I'm sure we could all benefit from seeing someone demonstrate such high-level skill.

[MightyB]

That was 10 years ago. Being one of the top mantis players in the country, I would naturally assume you have some other footage somewhere, even just class sparring.

I'm sure we could all benefit from seeing someone demonstrate such high-level skill.

Nope - have nowhere to spar like that anymore. Only place I go to now is Jiu Jitsu. Some of the guys there are fighting MMA and doing quite well, but with very little striking.

hey - I did admit that that statement really crossed the line and I did apologize for it. I truly am not one of the best mantis guys in the US. I guess it would be better to state that because I did experience High level mantis, I'd know it when I seen it.

[KC Elbows]

This thread deserves a bump.

I think the intent is right behind the thread, though not necessarily focussed just on combat SJ. Those of us on here who agree on the problem of people posting demos that are one-sided as proof of anything and have students should make a pact to, within the next six months, begin to put up training footage periodically that is realistic, has an element of pressure, and might be useful to each other, involving throws, strikes, what have you. And live and grow with the criticism.

Nothin to brag on our stuff, but to improve how we all teach and train.

I'm in if anyone else is. Let's make this something worth stickying.

[Hardwork108]

If this is the case, please give me an example of a training method that is better than fighting someone at 100 percent, full contact with limited rules.

That in itself is a contradicting statement,as you cannot fight someone at "100%", even if the rules are "limited"!

So, if you are going to fight with limited rules, then why not acknowledge TCMA schools who do that as a part of their curriculum, that is, they include contact fighting training? Why? Because they don't go there from day one, or very early in training, which would take them away from some of their principles and concepts?



This is one of the major problems with the "state" of TCMA as many describe it. HW you and many others like to discredit sport fighting
NO!

I do not "discredit" sports fighting!

What I "discredit" is the word of Kung fu-clueless sports fighters that think that sports fighting is the beginning and end of all, including TCMA training, without realizing that these arts were NOT designed for sports tournaments, hence by too much sports emphasis they will loose essential ingredients, which live behind an empty shell that will only be solely useful for entertaining simpleton knuckleheads!

If you want to see the TCMAs in sports settings, then there is San Da, who seem to be pretty well enough. Isn't that enough??????


but the bottom line is it is an excellent training tool and testing ground.

It is a relevant training tool, for those who are that way inclined and who have mastered the basic techniques of their arts together with some of the not so basic principles.


When you train with your Sifu or classmates/training partners there will always be a certain level of compliance and even when sparring hard there will be some give because they are your training partners and many are your friends.

Does that mean that if I am attacked in the street, I am going to be "complacent" with my attacker?????


When you fight in a full contact environment, be it MMA, San Shou, Muay Thai, Boxing, ect, ect, the guy across the ring/cage doesn't give a sh**it about you. He wants to take your head off, knock you out, tap you out, and look good doing it. Do you see what I am getting at?

And if you are attacked in the street, then you can expect the same, and probably worse!

See what I am getting at?

Again, contact sports fighting is a valid way of learning how to fight, and people who are in agreement should study kickboxing and mix it with some grappling arts, and drill their techniques in a contact sports setting, and they will be fine.

However, if one is studying an authentic style in a real deal kwoon, then there is more to the art than just ring fighting. Your body will at some point be trained in a different manner, so will your MIND!


You can ramble on about sport fighting not being real but unless your going out and getting in fights with real, trained fighters on the street with no rules on a regular basis this is the best training and testing method one can have, period.

Fight training in any scenario is valid and it not only trains your body, but your MIND!

While many good TCMA schools will have contact fight training for body and mind training, they will also take the training of the latter to higher levels, as regards combat!


I would love to see San Shou and Shuai Jiao become the standard for Kung Fu and not the minority. If and when this happens, you will see a completely different outlook on TCMA.

Hey, I find watching them entertaining as well, and some good San Shou fighters will show at least some kung fu essence, but in reality you do not need to study advanced TCMA methodologies for ring fighting.

So again, if sports fighting is emphasised too much in regards to TCMA training then we are in danger of loosing the advanced level techniques and methodologies, that would in the long run turn one into a better fighter.

[MightyB]

I have a rather narrow view of self defense in that I don't believe any MA (sport or traditional) can be anything more than a bully deterrent. So, when I hear "for the street" all I think of is if the person is still in school, "schoolyard fight", if they're older, "drunken bar fight".

With that as a premise - I break MA down into basic functions which are: health (stress release), forms performance, or sports combat.

To me - TCMA does health and performance pretty well, but it's terrible for sports combat in how sports combat is done in this day and age. There's no reason why TCMA can't be better at sports combat. I believe a base level of sports combat training would help immensely and stop a lot of this MMA vs TMA infighting that we're seeing on this board.

Thoughts?

[MightyB]

forgot to mention: HW108's last post was probably the most articulate, thought out and logical post I've ever seen him put on the boards. It was actually quite civil and presented his argument in a fair way.

What is wrong with the world today??? There must be a full moon or the end is truly near. :eek: Someone had to have hijacked his account :p

What's next... will we see BJJ Blue starting to support Obama?

[EarthDragon]

mightyb

I believe a base level of sports combat training would help immensely and stop a lot of this MMA vs TMA infighting that we're seeing on this board.

its been there all along. Trouble is some of these guys got enrolled in the wrong school, had a bad teacher or didnt feel they mixed it up enough so when the MMA came about, they all jumped ship... no different then the harley riders who HAD to go out and buy a chopper when that fad came in cuz harley's didnt give them the look they were looking for...

no matter what these same guys will continue to log onto a kung fu forum ( not the MMA forum mind you) and tell the world how bad kung fu is and how great MMA is.... cuz they feel cheated........ truth of the matter is MMA IS TMA its been there all along since the UFC there hs been a sport arena to test these skills to the mass public and thats the only difference

[Hardwork108]

forgot to mention: HW108's last post was probably the most articulate, thought out and logical post I've ever seen him put on the boards. It was actually quite civil and presented his argument in a fair way.
MightyB, when I am "aggressive", it is only because I am reflecting some other poster's negativeness.;)


What is wrong with the world today??? There must be a full moon or the end is truly near. :eek: Someone had to have hijacked his account :p

Hey, that is not fair, I am civil with those who hare civil with me, together with the few who actually practice TCMAs, on these boards.:)


What's next... will we see BJJ Blue starting to support Obama?

:eek:Oh no, please don't bring Obama into this, the man is a political puppet, just like most world "leaders", nowadays. So, they are ALL bad and corrupt to the core:cool:!

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can't "win" in a limited rules environment, what makes you think you can in a no rules one ??

[MasterKiller]

I'm in if anyone else is. Let's make this something worth stickying.

That's what she said!

[Knifefighter]

no matter what these same guys will continue to log onto a kung fu forum ( not the MMA forum mind you) and tell the world how bad kung fu is and how great MMA is.... cuz they feel cheated........ truth of the matter is MMA IS TMA its been there all along since the UFC there hs been a sport arena to test these skills to the mass public and thats the only difference

When people who have never done MMA quit posting ignorant cr@p about TMA being the same as MMA and supply some evidence for their claims, we will shut up.

[David Jamieson]

When people who have never done MMA quit posting ignorant cr@p about TMA being the same as MMA and supply some evidence for their claims, we will shut up.

you will never shut up. lol

I expect you'll be in the walmart telling some clerk that Target is way better than their stuff. :p

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.bdgplanet.com/images/wallpaper/bodog-ring-girls1-1024.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kisu has Hakutoken'd the correct and beaten the internet into submission !!

[Lokhopkuen]

Kisu has Hakutoken'd the correct and beaten the internet into submission !!

You are my Master;)

[KC Elbows]

You missed my point entirely. Read slowly for comprehension - Too many TCMA-ers say that people who cross train do it because they've never seen the realz kung fu. That is not the case at all. Many people have seen the realz kung fu and still choose to cross train - so I say stop using that as an argument as to why we shouldn't look at having some type of base level of sports training.

I thinnk you may be conflating one argument for another. The criticism I most often see is that someone one is arguing with on this topic did not actually ever know anything much about kung fu WHEN EXAMINING THEIR TRAINING HISTORY. They then argue from their "knowledge" without letting anyone else know what their actual knowledge is, and conflate practices from one style with everyone else, so that, magically, now taiji guys do 700 forms like chin wu guys and choy li fut guys, etc.

This is why I am trying to ask for what one knows if I'm gonna do that debate. There is a value to arguing this topic with you or SoCo kungfu etc, but then there ARE those who are ironically inflating their tma experience by ommission in order to make points, and there are also those with valid experience who are nearly impossible to argue this with because they constantly must include non-sequitors that are really what they want to rail against, not anything I said.

The idea that all the guys ranting against tma who went from tma to mma have relevant technical knowledge of even one of the two is small, of both is even smaller, which makes it nice and easy to find out who they are, find out whether they're worth the possible headache of talking to, and then start from there.

I mean, honestly, who should put up with being told they can't make their stuff work by someone who may not be able to make their stuff work, and who can or will provide no proof that they actually can? And who, while trying to train more effectively, has the time to get help from people who may know some salient points, but who can't stay on useful topics for three seconds without losing track of the discussion and falling back to some stock argument that does not represent anything you believe, when you could save time and ibuprofin by simply discussing with normal people who know the same stuff?

/rant

Beside that, boycott forms only comps, support full contact, and kill the culture that makes the school only big enough for one sifu by accepting the culture of multiple coaches all helping, all qualified, with one sifu enjoying seeing his or her students thrive.