Bart Cham Doa is it an effective Sword Art

[hpclub]

Dear All

I have recently been learning the Bart Cham Dao and think what a wonderful form this is. I know it is considered by some to be redundant in todays society but....so what. i'm learning it for the traditional aspect of the art.

It has got my thinking about how good Wing Chun practicioners can really become in swordmanship in comparison with other Chinese or Japanese Arts that are specifically dedicated to use of the swords. There must have been so much information lost over the generations that has diluted our skill with the Dao.

I know there is another site on this Forum about swordmanship that this thread might be better served but I was wondering from a Wing Chun practicioners perspective what your thoughts were?

PS Im also posting this on a rival Wing Chun Forum as there are differing members.

[k gledhill]

it is an itegral part of learning the ' system ' tactics and mobility are used to navigate on a wider area compared to shuffling of bare hands. The varying footwork can confuse beginners, so tends to be shwn last.

[jesper]

if you only do the forms you cant really use it in a fight.
Go spar and see where that takes you

[Dave McKinnon]

It is great to spar with. Against single weapons it really does quick work of attacking and slicing at the same time.

I still think longer weapons have an advantage but I believe a good level of skill can be achiever with them.

Dave

[hpclub]

Hi All

Thanks for your responses but I think my point is that because the Bart Cham Dao is 'normally' taught as the final part in the system then there will be far few people who will become significant experts in dual weilding blades compared to those arts which are dedicated specifically to learning swordmanship.

For example playing devils advocate is it a case of jack of all trades but master of none. As I mentioned today's society makes the knives redundant so the need to develop our swordsmanship skill is not as necessary. Compare this to a few hundered years ago when your skill meant this difference between life and death and so there would be more emphasis on its importance and thereby skills levels and knowldge of its use would be significantly higher.

[jesper]

Hi All

Thanks for your responses but I think my point is that because the Bart Cham Dao is 'normally' taught as the final part in the system then there will be far few people who will become significant experts in dual weilding blades compared to those arts which are dedicated specifically to learning swordmanship.

For example playing devils advocate is it a case of jack of all trades but master of none. As I mentioned today's society makes the knives redundant so the need to develop our swordsmanship skill is not as necessary. Compare this to a few hundered years ago when your skill meant this difference between life and death and so there would be more emphasis on its importance and thereby skills levels and knowldge of its use would be significantly higher.

well going by that why learn martial art when you can just carry a gun and get it over with.

The bottom line is that you only get good results if you actually do stresstesting of your skills no matter if its football or martial art

[LoneTiger108]

There must have been so much information lost over the generations that has diluted our skill with the Dao.

Maybe you're right.

I think if you look at Bushido/Laido guys, the respect that they have for the blade should (and does) transfer to the serious knife player, if that's how the Sifu decides to teach it. Thing is, all knife men were 'hidden' and I can't think of anyone in the later years that was actively 'making' sets of knives themselves, especially with the techniques and spirit of the Japanese. When was the last time you saw a Sifu even consider 'how to draw' the Wing Chun knife? What other training is done outside of the BJD Form? Who teaches blade maintenance? Safety protocol?

A decent chef would have better skills than the average knife player I see these days! :rolleyes: And of course, there are other arts that have become more recognized for their knife work so it's hard to promote what you do without it being compared or scrutinized. The form is just a guide after all, as are all the forms of WCK.

But that isn't to say that the swordsmanship in WCK has been lost. It's just very hard to find and sometimes even harder to get the Sifu to show!

[k gledhill]

knife tactics should be explained early on in a students training. Sadly many 'sifu' haven't learned this level or the methods used. PB learned BJD from WSL directly and shows his students early on to
develop the actions, stabs, cuts, etc...without footwork.
He showed the parrying methods involving entry and withdrawing steps ....very revealing to see the knives as they would be used in combat ...fast, aggressive, to kill not 'duel' like pirates in a film. Its easy to maim the opponents forearm while simultaneously parrying their weapon ...
the idea of receiving and allowing the side to attack to be 'presented' rather than searchwd for, comes into play too.