check this out

[EarthDragon]

this i quote form Mightyb on the main board so I was wondering if my felow mantis brothers feel he is the top mantis guy in all of America:cool:


I was accepted as one of eight disciples of Chung - Just knowing that about me should say a lot about my Mantis ability. Even without regularly practicing mantis for the last 7 years because of a work related relocation, I'd still say I'm still one of the top mantis players in the nation (that's why I think a lot of you guys are douches- no offense ). Now I've never been afraid of using my real name, so ask the person who you were so in awe of attending his seminar and getting your picture taken with if Kurt from Michigan is any good at mantis.

PS I am calling raymond Fogg in Dallas today OK?

what cracks me up is we have 6 of Master Wei's top students living in the US, and you feel your beter than then a;ll of these masters is that correct? Im sure Ernie Wu and John Chang would feel the same about some guy named Kurt from michigan.

Not trying to be a jerk here mighty, but people mak some crazy claims on the internet. So please forgive me for not taking you seriously. I am a geertation and have just 21 years in mantis and I am only beginning to understand a little.

[MightyB]

You missed my point entirely. Read slowly for comprehension - Too many TCMA-ers say that people who cross train do it because they've never seen the realz kung fu. That is not the case at all. Many people have seen the realz kung fu and still choose to cross train - so I say stop using that as an argument as to why we shouldn't look at having some type of base level of sports training. I think that people like Master Wang and the Combat SC association have probably the best grasp on what this should be because they've been doing it the longest using TCMA techniques and methods.


Never said I was the top - just in the upper percentage ;) and heck - 2/3rds of those who post on the mantis board wouldn't know the realz mantis if it bit them in the arse.

-yes I did just use the "you wouldn't know the realz kung fu argument", ha ha yeah take that! :D

[MightyB]

guys - what Earth's mad about - and I can't figure out why - is because I advocate cross training and don't buy that people cross train only because they haven't seen real kung fu.

I say people cross train even if they've seen the realz kung fu, so that isn't a good argument and it's not fair to say that and it's actually quite insulting.

-now let's look at themes I always go back to:

1) Cross train only after you've reached a certain degree of proficiency in a style usually after about 5 years of training with a good sifu.

2) you should only cross train in styles that compliment your base style.

3) simpler is better

4) live drilling with good sparring partners is the only way to get good

5) and - it's not a martial art unless it requires at least two people to practice

[Three Harmonies]

One would think with 40+ years of martial training between the two of you that some of the ego would have been shed. One would think....


JAB

[MightyB]

One would think with 40+ years of martial training between the two of you that some of the ego would have been shed. One would think....


JAB

Jake - my Ego is huge. Has to be - type A personality and all ;) but yeah -- saying I'm one of the top does cross the line and I apologize for that...

But it doesn't diminish the fact that the "you don't know the realz kung fu because you haven't seen it" argument that everybody uses is in fact quite insulting (on many levels).

[Three Harmonies]

Kurt is it?
If I got my panties in an uproar every time someone said something insulting about me, my teachers, or my art online I would never be at peace brother.

This is EXACTLY the **** that has put the CMA in the dismal hole it is in. The internet is not our friend when just anyone can make any claim.

Cheers
Jake

[MightyB]

Kurt is it?
If I got my panties in an uproar every time someone said something insulting about me, my teachers, or my art online I would never be at peace brother.

This is EXACTLY the **** that has put the CMA in the dismal hole it is in. The internet is not our friend when just anyone can make any claim.

Cheers
Jake

exactly- you're right on that one.

Don't know why, and it wasn't even Earth's comment, I got so mad.

and again I apologize for the "one of the top mantis players" comment I made.

[DBAC]

guys - what Earth's mad about - and I can't figure out why - is because I advocate cross training and don't buy that people cross train only because they haven't seen real kung fu.

I say people cross train even if they've seen the realz kung fu, so that isn't a good argument and it's not fair to say that and it's actually quite insulting.

-now let's look at themes I always go back to:

1) Cross train only after you've reached a certain degree of proficiency in a style usually after about 5 years of training with a good sifu.

2) you should only cross train in styles that compliment your base style.

3) simpler is better

4) live drilling with good sparring partners is the only way to get good

5) and - it's not a martial art unless it requires at least two people to practice

Disregarding other aspects of this thread, I did want to comment on feelings toward cross training.

While I agree that having an understanding and a degree of proficiency in other styles is beneficial, too often I have seen individuals go down this slippery slope without fully understanding what they have right in front of them. This lack of understanding causes them to see barriers that they say are inherent within the style when in reality it was by their own notion that the barrier was created in the first place.

This close-mindedness is in by no means limited to the beginner. Whether you have been studying for 1, 5, or even 20 years you are susceptible to falling prey to this mentality.

I can not say what level of proficiency or understanding would be recommended before cross-training. There is simply no standard of measure that covers what is necessary before one could venture off into other styles. If one does this too early and without the right mindset then they are likely to build even more barriers to the point that their proficiency is halted or at worst, regresses.

[EarthDragon]

Mightb,
I have nothing against cross training, I do it myself, in fact I am buying an octagon and chuck anzelone is working for me to teach BJJ, so my students can do MMA stuff as well as the other ciriculums in my school.

My comment was if you are missing a cetain aspect in this case SC, then I asked why you would want to add it and not add other aspects of what your style is missing, that was all plain an simple.

cross train every day with as many different people as much as you can.

I just found it funny that you said you are one of the top mantis guys in the US and most of us have never heard of you.

but no worries Kurt its all good. I get exicted and passionate about mantis myself. peace

[MightyB]

Mightb,
I have nothing against cross training, I do it myself, in fact I am buying an octagon and chuck anzelone is working for me to teach BJJ, so my students can do MMA stuff as well as the other ciriculums in my school.

My comment was if you are missing a cetain aspect in this case SC, then I asked why you would want to add it and not add other aspects of what your style is missing, that was all plain an simple.

cross train every day with as many different people as much as you can.

I just found it funny that you said you are one of the top mantis guys in the US and most of us have never heard of you.

but no worries Kurt its all good. I get exicted and passionate about mantis myself. peace

Fair enough and no problems bro - I was thinking of your original question and my cross training does definitely have to do with the MMA fad. I didn't intend to be a fad chaser, but that's the reality of the situation in MA now and we didn't have anything that resembled BJJ.

IMO I think it's very important to know enough to get back up if you're taken down by somebody that knows BJJ.

This is all because of age - I'm still relatively young so I'm still feisty so I still want to hang with the "fighters" and that's how fighters fight right now.

- as to the second part of the original question - I'll definitely go more internal as I get older. One thing I regret is not committing to learning the Lo Hun Gung when I was shown it many years ago.

The bone setting, herbology, accupressure and accupuncture, moxy bustion, and all that - let's face it, I may have missed that boat because a person only has so much time in their life to learn and Mantis by itself is a lifetime.

But you're right in that all of that would constitute cross-training.

[MightyB]

still didn't answer your question-

I suggested SC (I meant shuai jiao) because I think it'd be the easiest for TCMA to adopt since most TCMA already trains some kuai jiao throwing. Shuai Jiao and Kuai Jiao are super similar.

[EarthDragon]

gottcha, no harm no foul. Well if your looking to add something, SC would be a good choice, I am fortunate because its already in 8 step and goes hand in hand with most mantis applications and lead in's, however it is a style within a style and really needs a few years of dedicated trainign before it can be pulled off effortlessly.

knowking psysics leverage, adn manipulation of ones center is of great importance so you are not relying on muscle to perform your throws, this is the hardest part about throwing.
Ok all is good:D

[Knifefighter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he is one of the very few mantis people who have actually competed in open, full-contact competitions. If that's the case, that probably would make him one of the top guys, at least in being able to actually use his stuff.

[Three Harmonies]

"MMA fad" Not sure what the parameters are for a "fad" but I do not think BJJ nor MMA are a "fad." They are here for a long time. The sooner CMA accepts that the better.

Knifefighter... no one knows who Kurt is in the grand scheme of things, so how could one say yeah or neah!?

JAB

[Dragonzbane76]

MMA fad" Not sure what the parameters are for a "fad" but I do not think BJJ nor MMA are a "fad." They are here for a long time. The sooner CMA accepts that the better.

said this a hundred times to the traditional guys, like driving nails into solid rock.

[DBAC]

"MMA fad" Not sure what the parameters are for a "fad" but I do not think BJJ nor MMA are a "fad." They are here for a long time. The sooner CMA accepts that the better.

Knifefighter... no one knows who Kurt is in the grand scheme of things, so how could one say yeah or neah!?

JAB

Rocks have been around forever, but someone had the bright idea of painting one to look like a cat and thus a fad was born.

Jumping on the bandwagon solely because everyone else is, is what a fad is all about.

[MightyB]

Knifefighter... no one knows who Kurt is in the grand scheme of things, so how could one say yeah or neah!?

JAB

This is true and this is what makes me regret my wrong choice of words when I was responding to the "you don't know real kung fu because you haven't seen real kung fu" accusation that's casually tossed about.

I've actually thought quite a lot about what it means to truly participate in the Mantis community, and I don't contribute and I'm not really even mantis anymore.

What I mean is that there are people here who've sacrificed a great deal of money and time to travel the world seeking out the best mantis instructors, they've written articles and books, produced videos, spoke at engagements, learned new languages... all of this for the betterment of mantis. I do absolutely none of that and, in truth, my martial interests are actually taking me away from mantis.

I enjoyed mantis when I was participating and I've really enjoyed meeting everyone that I've met in that community over the years and I've made a lot of life-long friends... but - I'm not going to pursue becoming anything more in mantis - so really this will probably be the last thread that I contribute on in the mantis only forum.

Seriously doggs, it's been 10 years since I've even done a TCMA tourney, why the heck am I still lurking about on this board? - later, peace :)

[Knifefighter]

Rocks have been around forever, but someone had the bright idea of painting one to look like a cat and thus a fad was born.

Jumping on the bandwagon solely because everyone else is, is what a fad is all about.

And then there are those who specifically avoid the fad, simply on the principle that they don't join fads... even if those fads enhance what they do.

[EarthDragon]

referring to fad's I just had this conversation about motorcyles i.e choppers have been around since the 60's when the fad was to stretch out and rake your front end.

This "FAD" ended in the 70's and only recently re appeared in the 90's thanks to jesse james and OCC I compare Harley's to TCMA and choppers to MMA in this case. it will have it's time, but TCMA is timeless. This will come and go like music fashion and cars,

[KwaiChangCaine]

Why will it go?

[EarthDragon]

ummm cuz its a fad , and all fads come and go, MMA is hot right now, schools opneing up all over the place, but it will fade away just like all fads......

[David Jamieson]

referring to fad's I just had this conversation about motorcyles i.e choppers have been around since the 60's when the fad was to stretch out and rake your front end.

This "FAD" ended in the 70's and only recently re appeared in the 90's thanks to jesse james and OCC I compare Harley's to TCMA and choppers to MMA in this case. it will have it's time, but TCMA is timeless. This will come and go like music fashion and cars,

jesse james and west coast made waaaaaay better machines than occ.

pauls designs were ugly. they were always the same thing over and over again. The only nice sled that came out of that show was the old school sporty they gave to the nephew kid. It looked like an indian larry fabrication.

[EarthDragon]

oh i totally agree, I like paul borget bikes my self, but for sure jesse is a true bike builder, OCC are bike assmeblers

[mooyingmantis]

My brother-in-law opened an MMA gym a few years ago. He had no martial arts training himself, so he hired another instructor to actually do the teaching. All the family, except me, jumped on board. Now its closed and I am the only one still training. TCMA ad infinitum!

I give MMA another 5-7 years before it goes the way of Kickboxing, Ninjutsu and Jeet Kune Do. It will undoubtedly still be around, but its star will wane and something else will become the new fad. And some of the instructors on this board who are so vocal in its defense will have jumped on the new bandwagon, as we have seen them do in the past, to keep their businesses alive. Such is change and business.

I personally hope lions and the Coliseum come back! :D

[EarthDragon]

so true mooying, check out my thread on the main board that reads where did you get your opinion about kung fu... I cant wait for the responses

[taai gihk yahn]

if anyone thinks that MMA is a passing fad that will disappear in a few years, they apparently are not in touch w the way that the mainstream sports media has embraced MMA in a manner that it NEVER accepted kickboxing; ninjitsu, for all it's popularity in the '80's, killed itself by it's own hokeyness ad absurdum, and was never something that could be promoted in a sporting venue; and JKD - please - fringe at best as concerns generl population;

MMA is big $; it ain't goin' nowhere...

[KwaiChangCaine]

Umm combining most effective techniques at all ranges a fad or evolution of a worldwide sport trained fighting method using techniques from any where as long as they work.

[David Jamieson]

mma IS coliseum stuff.

there is lots of blood.
that is what the viewing people want.

I personally prefer to watch good old boxing.

The skill levels shown and required are pretty high all the way round, which is not true of mma which has guys in it who really shouldn't be there but get to be tomato cans and concussion collectors.

only the very top elites are enjoyable to watch ply their trade and the rest are shlubs.

but boxers, they all got something sweet to offer for the most part.

Kung Fu practitioners should find a way to fight with staffs in a marketable way. I think people would like that. Also, it would really up the staff play around teh world!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Kung Fu practitioners should find a way to fight with staffs in a marketable way. I think people would like that. Also, it would really up the staff play around teh world!

Sounds good. What's the ruleset to be, then?

[taai gihk yahn]

Sounds good. What's the ruleset to be, then?

There can be only one...

[mooyingmantis]

Only time will tell which of us will be right in 5-7 years. If I am still alive then, I will still be training. TCMA ad infinitum!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

There can be only one...

Across the multiverse, or just at the tourney?

[Knifefighter]

The skill levels shown and required are pretty high all the way round, which is not true of mma which has guys in it who really shouldn't be there but get to be tomato cans and concussion collectors.!

You know those completely clueless comments you were asking me about that make me understand that you have no idea about anything related to actual full contact fighting? This would be one of those.

[Frost]

You know those completely clueless comments you were asking me about that make me understand that you have no idea about anything related to actual full contact fighting? This would be one of those.

do you think he even engages his brains before making his posts, or do you think he just got spanked by an MMA fighter once and never got over it?

[mantid1]

MMA is as a commercial business to suck people in and make money is a fad. For the reason that there were not Boxing gyms on every corner while at the same time Tae Kwon Do schools and even some TCMA schoole WERE on every corner. Yeah....yeah I know there were and still are some boxing gyms..but not as many money makers.

Everyone loved to watch boxing....not many wanted to pay and get hurt. Same goes for MMA......People love to WATCH it. I know many people who love to watch it but have no desire to exercise let alone fight.

Most of the stuff I see around is little better than tough man contests....or as i said before a couple of druknen *****es slapping each other around. No where near the level of the guys MMA is known for.

Most schools in my area are guys who have done TMA that had bounced from every trendy name in the arts as they come out are now MMA gyms. They will move on to the next thing.

MMA as a competitive sport will be around for a while.

[Three Harmonies]

The only thing fading into obscurity is the CMA. Too much of this petty bull****! No one has missed a thing if you have not been to a CMA tourney in years. It is all wushu-ised bull****.

Richard we do not need 5-7 years. MMA has been around a lot longer and is a lot stronger in terms of support, pop culture, and as a sport. The average joe does not know how to pronounce Taiji correctly and it has been around for hundreds of years. Yet that same average joe understands and uses the terminology of BJJ/MMA after watching just a few years. Your example of your Bro in law is laden with other factors, I don't think it was solely the MMA aspect that made that venture fail!

JAB

[bawang]

im glad kung fu is fading. its never meant to be commercialized. get a real job guys

[Frost]

MMA is as a commercial business to suck people in and make money is a fad. For the reason that there were not Boxing gyms on every corner while at the same time Tae Kwon Do schools and even some TCMA schoole WERE on every corner. Yeah....yeah I know there were and still are some boxing gyms..but not as many money makers.

Everyone loved to watch boxing....not many wanted to pay and get hurt. Same goes for MMA......People love to WATCH it. I know many people who love to watch it but have no desire to exercise let alone fight.

Most of the stuff I see around is little better than tough man contests....or as i said before a couple of druknen *****es slapping each other around. No where near the level of the guys MMA is known for.

Most schools in my area are guys who have done TMA that had bounced from every trendy name in the arts as they come out are now MMA gyms. They will move on to the next thing.

MMA as a competitive sport will be around for a while.

where do you come up with the stuff, there are tons of boxing gyms, normally one in every town or city, and please show us you and your guys in full contact competition looking really technical, surely you can do better than these tough men MMA guys :rolleyes:

MMA and MMA gyms are here to stay, of course you have people cashing in on them BUT they dont last, because its easy to find the good MMA gyms (for reasons so obvious i wont post)

[mooyingmantis]

Three Harmonies wrote:
Richard we do not need 5-7 years. MMA has been around a lot longer and is a lot stronger in terms of support, pop culture, and as a sport. The average joe does not know how to pronounce Taiji correctly and it has been around for hundreds of years. Yet that same average joe understands and uses the terminology of BJJ/MMA after watching just a few years.


Jake,
First, I don't have a problem with MMA. If it strengthens MA in the US it is a good thing. I also believe it dispelled the B.S. myths about "one punch kills" and the superiority of _______ (fill in the blank) over every other fighting style. It was a wake up call for MA and it gave jujutsu, judo, shuai jiao and wrestling a much needed boost.

However, I work with the public everyday. During a typical week I personally interact with about 250 people. Most know I teach CMA, so the topic of MMA comes up all the time, as it did today.

Here are the things I have observed from these conversations:
1. Unlike TMA most women are clueless concerning MMA. So that base is not much of a moneymaker.
2. Guys like watching MMA in groups on pay per view. If interest wanes, it will be dropped from pay per view because it will not generate enough profit. Then interest will drop even more.
3. Compared to TMA there are very few MMA gyms across the country. And you can probably count on one hand the number of MMA type sanctioned tourneys in Ohio as well as many other states.
4. Many of the men I talk to who do like watching MMA matches on TV say that it still doesn't measure up to professional boxing. They enjoy the violence, but think the skill level is kind of cheesy.

As I said, I believe MMA is here to stay. But because it is based on the things you described such as; support and pop culture, it will eventually wane. It will receive support as long as it is a moneymaker. Pop culture has a short life span. Anyone who has lived several decades has seen this happen over and over. Remember beanie babies, pet rocks, tie dye shirts, Ashida Kim books, etc.?

As for the average Joe, he is still sitting on the couch. Though his wife may be studying Tai Ji at the local community college.

While MMA is a moneymaker suck the tit for all you can get. Just don't bank too much money on it as a long term investment.

Just my opinion and as I said previously, time will tell. It always does. :)