Those that trained in TCMA and then went to MMA

[MysteriousPower]

Sorry knifefighter, you do not apply since you are just an mma gorilla...unless you studied a traditional form based martial art sometime... :)


Frost, Sanjuro Ronin, I particularly like your posts because you guys did tcma and then went to MMA. You have experience in both and espouse both views combining the best of both worlds to create your own fighting style.

While training in mma has your tcma training come out at all? I was sparring with a guys once and did a fook sau to deflect one of his punches before following up. Later on he was like, "What the hell was that thing you did to my punch?"

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't do MMA and have never gone to MMA, if by MMA you mean the sport.
I have fought in MMA (vale tudo) but only a few fights and I trained MMA for them, yes.
I have always cross trained, it just made sense to train in systems that were specilaised in what I was missing in my MA arsenal or to train in a system that I would have to fight eventually ( know the enemy).
I have always viewed doing that as BEING A TRADITIONALIST.
The tradition of every MA I have done has been "being effective in a fight" so it just made sense to do just that, make the art effective for ME.
After over 30 years I have synthizied all I know into what I do now.
What I do that works best FOR ME and HOW it works best FOR ME.
I don't call what I do MMA because MMA is the name of the sport and I don't do it.
I simply call it "boxing" or if you wanna get techical, "Sha Jia Quan" or "Sacramento Family boxing".
Does my TMA back ground ever come out when I spar or fight?
Yes, all the time, but only the stuff that I can do well, LOL !

[Knifefighter]

I started out in JKD/WC. Like most people in the TMA's I was pretty brainwashed. The only thing that kept me from getting completely brainwashed and continuing to question things was that I always competed along the way. Competition will always help to keep you focused on reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Didn't you do time under Inosanto too for awhile?

[lkfmdc]

To me "MMA" is a training philosophy and methodology... I have HUNDREDS of students that train MMA and do NOT compete. I might also suggest, gasp, that the real "old school" way was much closer to "MMA" than the so called traditionalists would like to come to grips with

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me "MMA" is a training philosophy and methodology... I have HUNDREDS of students that train MMA and do NOT compete. I might also suggest, gasp, that the real "old school" way was much closer to "MMA" than the so called traditionalists would like to come to grips with

Do you recall any of the old time fighters that did NOT "mix" their MA ?

[lkfmdc]

Do you recall any of the old time fighters that did NOT "mix" their MA ?

Chan Tai San used northern kicking, Mok ga low kicking, choy lay fut long punching, hung kuen short punching, Lama Pai angles, Shuai Jiao throws, and bak mei clinching

He also did Japanese Judo and western boxing

And played with some Kali when he was in the PI

If he had had access to it, I don't doubt he would have done jiu jitsu, etc

But what did HE know?

[David Jamieson]

it's a ridiculous premise.

Mixed martial arts. it's taking more than one martial art and training it with another.

The tcma I learned has bag work, pad work, has weight lifting, has sparring, has running, has weapons work, has chi kung, has yoga...

I used to straight up box. I went to asian traditional martial arts after that.
I used to straight up wrestle, while I was boxing! I still went to tcma after that.

If you aren't keeping an open mind to everything that's out there, then you are missing out no matter which side of the fence you are on.

In my opinion, tcma is already mma for the most part. Unless you chose a style that doesn't address a particular range or subset that you deem important to your well roundedness as a fighter...if you even are a fighter or even capable of fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Chan Tai San used northern kicking, Mok ga low kicking, choy lay fut long punching, hung kuen short punching, Lama Pai angles, Shuai Jiao throws, and bak mei clinching

He also did Japanese Judo and western boxing

And played with some Kali when he was in the PI

If he had had access to it, I don't doubt he would have done jiu jitsu, etc

But what did HE know?

Well so what, did he have a UFC record? Is he on sherdog? could he dominate the iceman in the octagon, because if not, then it's all useless fairy dancing according to the armchair fans we have crowding in here with the dumb ass questions and apparent cognitive disorders.

I think most of us, with a few exceptions get the fact that learning forms is not a full plate of martial arts. It's the armchair guys who have difficulty understanding that there is more than one way to skin a cat and it is the larping formsters who cannot grasp that forms are simply not enough to develop a martial artist.

It's a false argument coming from ego and ignorance on those two ends of the spectrum. I'm perfectly happy with my practice otherwise.

[lkfmdc]

For all the Buddhism that TMA people ares supposed to be into, there is an absurd inability to simply "let go" of many things, forms being #1 on the list

It is not only a "technology" that few people understand how it was SUPPOSED TO BE USED, it is a technoogy that is now used incorrectly AND most importantly it is an OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY

[bawang]

its not outdated its like this for a reason. easy quick money

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I love how most of the TCMA styles have a lineage history which usually says "so and so combined this style and that style to come up with his own method."

The passive learners he taught would go on to copy him pretty exactly. Being passive learners, they probably would not test their skills and end up teaching what they were taught... no deviation!

The active learners would go on to fight and mix their teacher's method with their own and other methods, just like what we call non-classical Gung Fu, or JKD, or MMA today (with MMA leading the pack due to competitive opportunities.)

[EarthDragon]

MP
While training in mma has your tcma training come out at all?

Of course it would this is a silly question. If you start in TCMA and you practice it to proficientcy, then when attacked you utilize your training to defend yourself then it comes out.
when learning TCMA you learn to read Yi , react to telegprahing, use leverage, joint manipulation, distruption to your opponents center, trip, sweep, throw, chock, punch, kick , knee, and elbows................ please show me a fighting art that doesnt have these components

Problem is SOME people think of TCMA as silk wearing PJ and nothing else, when no matter what its ALL fighting in one way or another, just becuse PART of learnign is forms its not all their is, to think differently is pure ignorance, refer to the above list, mantis uses all these aspects. as does what you call MMA so whats the difference?

[MysteriousPower]

For all the Buddhism that TMA people ares supposed to be into, there is an absurd inability to simply "let go" of many things, forms being #1 on the list

It is not only a "technology" that few people understand how it was SUPPOSED TO BE USED, it is a technoogy that is now used incorrectly AND most importantly it is an OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY

How would you recommend to use forms as a training tool?

[bawang]

as a warmup

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally don't recommend forms at all.
Unless they are forms that build build strength or flexiblity or what not.
By forms I mean prearranged set pattern of moves.
Shadow boxing or free style "air sparring' is NOT forms.

[David Jamieson]

I still like hei gung sets and use them.

all other sets have been broken down and sorted.

[SoCo KungFu]

MP

Of course it would this is a silly question. If you start in TCMA and you practice it to proficientcy, then when attacked you utilize your training to defend yourself then it comes out.
when learning TCMA you learn to read Yi , react to telegprahing, use leverage, joint manipulation, distruption to your opponents center, trip, sweep, throw, chock, punch, kick , knee, and elbows................ please show me a fighting art that doesnt have these components

Its not just about having them. Its about employing them. And if they are even carried on correctly. Which is by and large NOT the case. The question is why would a prospective student go to a TCMA school and more than likely learn to do the above wrong, when they can go to a gym that actually fights and learn to do them right?


Problem is SOME people think of TCMA as silk wearing PJ and nothing else, when no matter what its ALL fighting in one way or another, just becuse PART of learnign is forms its not all their is, to think differently is pure ignorance, refer to the above list, mantis uses all these aspects. as does what you call MMA so whats the difference?

No the problem is that by and large 99.9999999 and more 9's with the little arrow over it % of the TCMA'ers are in fact silk pajama wearing ballet dancers (now don't get ****ty I didn't say YOU personally, but as a whole kung fu is in the ****ter). And forms is the entirety of their training. And a few people here yelling that THEY do more than that doesn't change the fact that to the general populace, kung fu is at its core wearing shiny shirts with bad dragon pictures, dancing around with flimsy weapons for a couple hours then hitting the Chinese buffet. Kung fu deserves the reputation its gotten. And while you may say its ignorance to say there's no fighting in there. Its also ignorant to try and recreate something that was lost and outdated by modern fighting conditions when the chances of you finding the real deal is about as likely as getting struck by lightning. At what point is enough, enough and you say **** it and scrap the idea for something more likely to bring positive results? You say don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I say the baby done drowned...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Training methods is where it is. If you train hard against resistant opponents and actually train to hit objects instead of the air, your stuff will probably work. The problem is labels and how they are used. It's kind of like the ****ty girl in high school or college that everyone hooked up with and talked about until everyone finds out she has herpe**s than everyone denies they did it. The point is if you fu**ck something long enough and hard enough eventually something nasty happens to all those involved.

[EarthDragon]

soCo,


Its not just about having them. Its about employing them. And if they are even carried on correctly. Which is by and large NOT the case. The question is why would a prospective student go to a TCMA school and more than likely learn to do the above wrong, when they can go to a gym that actually fights and learn to do them right?
notice in my post I said proficently, yes there are schools that the teacher is not a fighter and focusses more on the esoteric side of kung fu. But not ALL schools are like this. problem is most people are basing htier opinions on 1, 2 or possibly 3 schools they have been enrolled in or visted and then make sweepin assumtions tht itsz ALL kung fu schools, but we all know this is not the case.

I learned in NY then in SF and I an assure you the schools I leanred in and have visted are fighting academy's plain and simple, not dance schools .
I was fortunate enough to learn from the chinese and my sifu was 5 time full contact champion of Taiwan in the 1970's and loves violence LOL.



And forms is the entirety of their training.

please list these schools for us______________ ,

kung fu is at its core wearing shiny shirts with bad dragon pictures, dancing around with flimsy weapons for a couple hours then hitting the Chinese buffet. Kung fu deserves the reputation its gotten.

maybe you are speaking of shopping mall schools in mid america, but if you go to a real kwoon this is not the case.

QUOTE]chances of you finding the real deal is about as likely as getting struck by lightning.[/QUOTE]

its up to the seeker to find a good sdchool. there are good and bad in any business its up to you to dig through the ****e

the proble is most peopel are basing this sweeping assumption from a litte or maybe no experiance personally. If you live in Oklahoma and you look at kung fu school in the mall taught by some white guy who wears a kung fu uniform and teaches 5 years olds then of course its going to be hookey crap, I employ you to look into a REAl school. and perhaps you will change your mind.

can I ask how many schoold you have joined to come up with your opinion?

[Knifefighter]

the proble is most peopel are basing this sweeping assumption from a litte or maybe no experiance personally. If you live in Oklahoma and you look at kung fu school in the mall taught by some white guy who wears a kung fu uniform and teaches 5 years olds then of course its going to be hookey crap, I employ you to look into a REAl school. and perhaps you will change your mind.

can I ask how many schoold you have joined to come up with your opinion?

The "assumptions" are based on the fact that 95% of all kung fu schools have nothing but forms and demos as any kind of evidence of what they do in training. Combine that with the fact that you've got a pretty big group of yahoos who claim they train without gear with "street without rules" techniques and take said techniques from the forms, and you've got a pretty good case for making this kind of assumption.

[mooyingmantis]

No the problem is that by and large 99.9999999 and more 9's with the little arrow over it % of the TCMA'ers are in fact silk pajama wearing ballet dancers... And forms is the entirety of their training.

How many TCMA instructors have YOU actually trained with? You are making sweeping generalizations that I believe are unfounded.

All the TCMA instructors that I know personally have been using traditional and modern training methods for decades.

As many on this board do, you have created your own straw man to burn down. Before you created him, he didn't exist!

I know of at least 11 TCMA schools in my area (Cleveland, Akron & Canton). None of them train only forms.

[MasterKiller]

I know of at least 11 TCMA schools in my area (Cleveland, Akron & Canton). None of them train only forms.

And how many of them are putting peope in the ring?

If you run a school in this day and age, and you don't have at least a couple of guys who compete, you're not running a fighting school.

[mooyingmantis]

And how many of them are putting peope in the ring?

If you run a school in this day and age, and you don't have at least a couple of guys who compete, you're not running a fighting school.

LOL! That is so naive. Do you assume that only peeps who can fight within a specific rule set are "fighters"? I prefer peeps who have stayed alive when there were no rules. I know several of these.

As for the peeps in my area. Some have peeps in sanda, some have peeps in shuai jiao, some have peeps in MMA. Some just have peeps who can defend themselves.

[David Jamieson]

And how many of them are putting peope in the ring?

If you run a school in this day and age, and you don't have at least a couple of guys who compete, you're not running a fighting school.

what if you're training leos and they're using your techs to take dudes down?

what if you're training krav maga?

I don't fully agree with what you are saying.

Visceral threat comes in many more forms than an opponent in your weight class battling under a set of rules that keep the game pretty much safe.

I appreciate the value of competition. Been there, done that. But to disparage a school that teaches martial arts because they aren't feilding fighters in the local nhb contests?

do competition schools teach people how to unholster and shoot quickly when faced with a threat? Because that's reality for you. I know kung fu guys who are also into guns. I bet there's a couple on these boards.

so, nah. :)

[MasterKiller]

Do you assume that only peeps who can fight within a specific rule set are "fighters"? I prefer peeps who have stayed alive when there were no rules. I know several of these.

I read this so much it just sounds like the teacher from the peanuts in my head. :rolleyes:

I train two highway patrol officers that have used stuff in real life. Guess what? They also compete.

Schools with a tough reputation will attract people who want to fight. Odds are at least a couple will actually compete in something at some point.


As for the peeps in my area. Some have peeps in sanda, some have peeps in shuai jiao, some have peeps in MMA. Good.


Some just have peeps who can defend themselves. Plenty of people can defend themselves and have never stepped into a school. That doesn't say much.

[Knifefighter]

LOL! That is so naive. Do you assume that only peeps who can fight within a specific rule set are "fighters"? I prefer peeps who have stayed alive when there were no rules. I know several of these.

By the time most kids are in 6th grade or so, they've "survived" at least one "no rules" fight. Doesn't mean they know what they are doing, though.

If you can't fight with rules, you probably can't fight any better without them.

[EarthDragon]

masterkiller............... I have does this make my school better?5856

[Knifefighter]

When you've got nothing but clips and pics of demos and forms, chances are you are not doing much real sparring:


http://www.youtube.com/user/ginosifu

http://www.donniamstudio.com/Kung%20Fu%20Class/gallery.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-uw0Oju9B0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRT3oAW9w2w&feature=related

And when this is your idea of sparring, you've pretty much missed the boat.:
http://www.wing-chun.nu/cwc_video_sparring.htm



So, where exactly are those schools that are doing the real training. You'd think there would be at least one picture of them actually mixing it up full-contact.

When all you can find are forms, chi sao, and demos, chances are that's what is actually going on.

[MasterKiller]

masterkiller............... I have does this make my school better?5856

ED, Don't get me wrong. I respect what Shyun did, especially since it was so long ago, but do you have any students doing anything currently? Even local shows?

[David Jamieson]

masterkiller............... I have does this make my school better?5856

scorch pow and burn! lol

nice one Mike. :D

[David Jamieson]

ED, Don't get me wrong. I respect what Shyun did, especially since it was so long ago, but do you have any students doing anything currently? Even local shows?

cripes!, what are you ? Janet Jackson?

"what have you done for me lately" lol

[MasterKiller]

cripes!, what are you ? Janet Jackson?

"what have you done for me lately" lol

ED has been riding that horse for a long time, and he wasn't even the coach there at the time. I think it's a valid question.

[David Jamieson]

ED has been riding that horse for a long time, and he wasn't even the coach there at the time. I think it's a valid question.

nah, it's sour grapes man.

do you ask your doctor when was the last class in university while he has a camera up your ass?

the only constant is change.

It will happen to you. You will have periods where you don't have anyone fighting in any venue because you simply won't have students who want that.

people who want to fight competitively, across all martial arts practice are few.

venues that allow it are as rare as diamond sparkle ****s.

non sanctioned nhb stuff is greasy kid stuff and not worth the risk.

go big or go home. How many guys you got that make serious bank from clooberin time? how many calls you got from dana white (one of maybe two or three only real money shows in town when it comes to mma)

playing at it full blast etc... that's goofy on a few levels. Really going for it at teh levels of gsp et al? Now that's some seriosu business, but I don't see that in every school training mma. I see bandwagons, t-shirt wearers and guys who have learned some but will never take it to that level and yet guys on here talk like they are and have always been at that level.

I know that simply isn't true, I know you know it and I know teh likes of Dave Ross and Knife Fighter know it too.

small clubs banging are a dime a dozen. how much real talent with real name value have you put out.

[EarthDragon]

ED, Don't get me wrong. I respect what Shyun did, especially since it was so long ago, but do you have any students doing anything currently? Even local shows?

fair enough MK, I have this to go on and yes it was back in the day when we were into the UFC, and I personally worked and trained with Joel more than anyone else, shyun taught me the stuff and we worlked it but he never rolled on the ground but it is still more than MOST kung fu schools, so i still refer to it when peopel say kung fu doesnt wrok in the ring.

however there was kick boxing tourny not long ago at a gym here in NY, when I caled the organizers he told me it was KB rules and not takedowns so what are we to do besieds organize our own fight? that is alot more work then i want to do

[MasterKiller]

nah, it's sour grapes man.

do you ask your doctor when was the last class in university while he has a camera up your ass? I don't know how it works in Bob and Doug Mckenzie country, but doctors in America actually have to get recertified every few years. They can't rest on their laurels.


venues that allow it are as rare as diamond sparkle ****s. non sanctioned nhb stuff is greasy kid stuff and not worth the risk.

There are sanctioned, bonded fights in Oklahoma every month. I won't let my guys fight in an unsanctioned fight.


How many guys you got that make serious bank from clooberin time? how many calls you got from dana white (one of maybe two or three only real money shows in town when it comes to mma)The majority of my students do not compete. But that's my student at 35th in the world. Just saying...

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5689&d=1276787964

[David Jamieson]

I don't know how it works in Bob and Doug Mckenzie country, but doctors in America actually have to get recertified every few years. They can't rest on their laurels. the bottom percentile still gets to be a doctor though.




There are sanctioned, bonded fights in Oklahoma every month. I won't let my guys fight in an unsanctioned fight. good for you. smarter than your average bear.



That's my student at 35th in the world. Just saying...
that's great, so, if someone comes and scoops him with a few thousand bucks, what have you got then? you get to start again!

you are now where Mike was. Mike can still get there again if he wants right? So why bag on him? Is it really just because he does trad mantis?

and hey, pound for pound, the best mma fighter in the world is a canadian. :p and the dude is totally mma, and oh snap he's a traditionalist as well!!!!
http://www.fighting-mma.com/top10/pound-4-pound.php

[MasterKiller]

you are now where Mike was. Mike can still get there again if he wants right? I just asked if ED had anyone else competing. You can drive 2 hours in just about any direction and find a sanctioned venue. ED seems to have a decent program, so you would assume someone else in the last 20 years from his camp would want to compete.


So why bag on him? Is it really just because he does trad mantis? I'm not bagging on him. I just asked a question.

Now...where did I leave my keys.....





;)

[EarthDragon]

MK

Now...where did I leave my keys.....

OMG LOL we arent going there again are we? LOL talk about the last 20 years.

OK to answer your question NO I have had no one interested in compeition figting in the last few years, mostly other Black belts and adults who actually dont care for fighting or violence, they just want to learn an art or my taiji students who are into health and wellness

that being said recently because of the raging wolf school that just opened across the street from me , myself and my partner are employing chuck anzelone the only NYS certified instructor from gracie camp and buying an octogan next week and teachning BJJ at the school.
He is FAR more qualfied to teach then I am and i am humble enough to admitt it, I'm 44 for chirst sakes and dont want to roll anymore with 20 year olds. so I am sure you will be seeing kung fu usa competing soon.

thank you for not baggin:D

[David Jamieson]

i think we could do a whole "where's my keys" thread and never once use those old pictures.

There's lots of mantis hand shots available now. even old ones. before they had cars!

[Knifefighter]

tion.

Now...where did I leave my keys.....)

Which was more evidence of cluelessness and bad teaching.

[Knifefighter]

OMG LOL we arent going there again are we? LOL talk about the last 20 years.

Yeah, that was where you advocated standing motionless in stances for 10 minutes at a time. More evidence of your crap traditional teaching.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-159.html

[EarthDragon]

david, and back then you noticed who the people were who dont train thier legs..... because anyone I asked to do 5 pistols couldnt... isnt this were we came up with the saying armchair kung fu? guys who cant do what others train daily for? poke fun of those who can...

[Knifefighter]

david, and back then you noticed who the people were who dont train thier legs..... because anyone I asked to do 5 pistols couldnt... isnt this were we came up with the saying armchair kung fu? guys who cant do what others train daily for? poke fun of those who can...

LOL @ the loser who puts me on ignore, reads my posts, then responds to them as if he is responding to another poster.

[Yum Cha]

When I started TCMA, every year we had a tournament, every school in chinatown competed. I never really understood the rules, but I later realised it was San Da. No knees or elbows, but your could throw. 8oz gloves, box, mouthguard.

Winners from Sydney went to Melbourne and fought the other winners there for National Championship. This was the days of the Lacy brothers in Perth, Chen yong Fa in Sydney, Chan Hak Fu in Sydney, William Cheung (sp? the wing chun Sifu) in Melbourne, and many other 'immigrated' HK masters.

Some matches were brawls, some were battles, and some were elegant. There were enough knockouts and tko's to guarantee it was full on.

We sparred heavy in class, and trained up a couple of months in advance for the tournament. You represented, lots of plain club boys stepped up for the tournament, it wasn't just specialists.

It came to an end around 92 when the local sporting authority decided they wanted a piece of the action, and deemed it was 'boxing', laid all kinds of rules and requirements on it, bigger gloves, headgear, ambulances, doctors, liability insurance increases, you get the idea.

The last year they lost all the money they had saved over decades trying to make it work. Not like they had much, it was just a 'gentlemens club' that ran the event anyway...

I was pretty handy then. Better than most, but not the best. I have another lifetime of training on top of that now. My experience is that there was more, and for want of a better explanation, it turned me from being a butcher to a surgeon.

And I'm still pretty handy, better than most, but not the best.

As for forms:

In pak mei, we do our forms like wind sprints. Full on into oxygen debt (depending on fitness of course) and recovery. That's good training.

The fact it combines this training with techniques is rather unique. I don't know of any other art that blasts their forms like we do. I've seen the same speed and power in other arts, mind you, just not in the everyday practice of the forms.

We have a principle, no 'walk throughs' unless you are a buck novice.

But forms are just a warm up. A refresher in fundamentals before every training session. Of course, some people have more to refresh than others....

People who worship forms are no different than people that worship fighting. They make their choice and settle into that space.

[B.Tunks]

When I started TCMA, every year we had a tournament, every school in chinatown competed. I never really understood the rules, but I later realised it was San Da. No knees or elbows, but your could throw. 8oz gloves, box, mouthguard.

Winners from Sydney went to Melbourne and fought the other winners there for National Championship. This was the days of the Lacy brothers in Perth, Chen yong Fa in Sydney, Chan Hak Fu in Sydney, William Cheung (sp? the wing chun Sifu) in Melbourne, and many other 'immigrated' HK masters.


YC

Cool. You must know Mick Spinks, Chan Cheuk Fai etc. Are you talking about the matches that were held at Town Hall and morphed into WKA events? I competed there once in 1991 but already the rules at that event were 5 kicks above the waist min rule. What school were you fighting for?

Cheers,

BT

[David Jamieson]

Yum-

old school. lol
]
I bet there are a lot of guys who have shared that or a similar experience in their terrible flimsy traditinal training. :rolleyes: :D

[Yum Cha]

YC

Cool. You must know Mick Spinks, Chan Cheuk Fai etc. Are you talking about the matches that were held at Town Hall and morphed into WKA events? I competed there once in 1991 but already the rules at that event were 5 kicks above the waist min rule. What school were you fighting for?

Cheers,

BT

Don't know Mick, but Chan Cheuk Fai is still doing his thing with the Double Dragon open nights. One of my boys got thrown out, and Sifu had to send over a bottle of whiskey to apologise.... So, we haven't had a lot to do with them in awhile, other than around the Chinatown circuit.

91 was the last one I remember, at the Entertainment Centre. Had all the guys in from PNG? I fought for Yau Kung Mun in 87, 80kg runner-up. I think I still have the programme.

Tunks, do I know you? You train with Corney, and up at the Junction with that Russian kid?

[Yum Cha]

Yum-

old school. lol
]
I bet there are a lot of guys who have shared that or a similar experience in their terrible flimsy traditinal training. :rolleyes: :D


Hey, I think we have lawyers to blame as much as wimpy sifus....

[B.Tunks]

Don't know Mick, but Chan Cheuk Fai is still doing his thing with the Double Dragon open nights. One of my boys got thrown out, and Sifu had to send over a bottle of whiskey to apologise.... So, we haven't had a lot to do with them in awhile, other than around the Chinatown circuit.

91 was the last one I remember, at the Entertainment Centre. Had all the guys in from PNG? I fought for Yau Kung Mun in 87, 80kg runner-up. I think I still have the programme.

Tunks, do I know you? You train with Corney, and up at the Junction with that Russian kid?

Mick Spinks is pretty much one of the pioneers of Australian participation in International full-contact CMA. He trained under Cheuk Fai and fought and won in the early 80's in SE Asian and HK full contact events and later moved into kickboxing (trains Ian Schaffa amongst others). You'd probably remember his exibition match against Benny Urquidez.

I don't think we've met, though I have met a few Yau Kung Mun boys over the years (usually witnessing them brawl in Chinatown against CLF mates, ha ha) plus YKM used to come down and do the lions here. I think I'm a fair bit younger than you - was only in yr 10 in 87. I'm from Sydney originally but did all of my early training in Canberra so it must be a diff Tunks. Kickboxing only officially started in A.C.T in 88 (I was on the first show fighting at a massive 48kgs), before that only the point rubbish. I went to Sydney and entered what were meant to be 'freestyle' shows in the early 90's but they were really just kickboxing and most of the entrants were Zen Do Kai, Zen Chi Ryu and Kyokushin people, apart from Double Dragon. Even by then they started making any lifting and reaping throws illegal.

I'm sorry I did not get the chance to fight in the shows you did as I was too young, but I saw some very entertaining fights (if we are talking about the same events). In hindsight thought, a lot of it was just wild brawling and the opponents were always very badly matched. A lot of bad K.O's from memory.

Nice one.

(Sorry to get off topic.)

[MysteriousPower]

Yum-

old school. lol
]
I bet there are a lot of guys who have shared that or a similar experience in their terrible flimsy traditinal training. :rolleyes: :D

Just a shot in the dark but you probably were not one of those guys.

[Yum Cha]

Mick Spinks is pretty much one of the pioneers of Australian participation in International full-contact CMA. He trained under Cheuk Fai and fought and won in the early 80's in SE Asian and HK full contact events and later moved into kickboxing (trains Ian Schaffa amongst others). You'd probably remember his exibition match against Benny Urquidez.

I remember the Benny the Jet exhibition match....only just.


I don't think we've met, though I have met a few Yau Kung Mun boys over the years (usually witnessing them brawl in Chinatown against CLF mates, ha ha) plus YKM used to come down and do the lions here. I think I'm a fair bit younger than you - was only in yr 10 in 87. I'm from Sydney originally but did all of my early training in Canberra so it must be a diff Tunks. Kickboxing only officially started in A.C.T in 88 (I was on the first show fighting at a massive 48kgs), before that only the point rubbish. I went to Sydney and entered what were meant to be 'freestyle' shows in the early 90's but they were really just kickboxing and most of the entrants were Zen Do Kai, Zen Chi Ryu and Kyokushin people, apart from Double Dragon. Even by then they started making any lifting and reaping throws illegal.

I knew a LHBF fighter named Tuchs or Tux, heavyweight.

LOL - so you were 12 when the famous YKM/CLF confrontation took place - it was nothing, the legend has grown over the years....

Once they moved from the wood floor to the ring, the rules and everything changed. It was just another fight night after that.


I'm sorry I did not get the chance to fight in the shows you did as I was too young, but I saw some very entertaining fights (if we are talking about the same events). In hindsight thought, a lot of it was just wild brawling and the opponents were always very badly matched. A lot of bad K.O's from memory.

Nice one.

(Sorry to get off topic.)


It was always a mystery exactly what was going on. The masters would stick their heads together and with lots of commotion and gesticulation, decisions would be made, winners chosen, weight classes shifted, matches made and unmade, total anarchy.

Winning was always on your mind, but it was always about representing. You went in against a champ, or a novice, but the best the other school could muster. You were the best your school could muster, and you stood up.

Some fights were just brawls, gassed and hanging onto each other with the second round onward. Others were smashfests with heavy shots, knockdowns and capitulations. But the best were the stylish fighters, who could work their own stuff. and these guys were inevitably the best of the best.

I have a few stills from the 87 event, but all the video is lost. The Yau Kung Mun sifu retired in 89 and who knows where it went, and I hooked up with Sifu Leung through them.

[B.Tunks]

Mick Spinks actually gave Benny Urquidez a run for his money. He was a very decent kickboxer and is now an excellent coach. I don't know if it's on youtube anywhere or not but i might ask a mate to upload it.

I know the LHBF Tux your referring too, who used to work the door at Kinselas. Saw him fight a bit, both in and out of the ring.

The younger kids from my generation also tried to carry on the YKM/CLF rivalry as well, though other non-martial thing$ were involved...

Looks like we've turned it into an 80's Aussie reminiscing thread.

[Frost]

Sorry knifefighter, you do not apply since you are just an mma gorilla...unless you studied a traditional form based martial art sometime... :)


Frost, Sanjuro Ronin, I particularly like your posts because you guys did tcma and then went to MMA. You have experience in both and espouse both views combining the best of both worlds to create your own fighting style.

While training in mma has your tcma training come out at all? I was sparring with a guys once and did a fook sau to deflect one of his punches before following up. Later on he was like, "What the hell was that thing you did to my punch?"

A good question and one I have been thinking about for a while

Alot of the sensitivity training I did during my hakka, southern and tai chi training came out when I started grappling and doing MMA work, I could read the intentions of similar new guys or a bit better in the clinch very well and lead them into throws especially sweeps and sacrifice throws (I am still big on the lateral drop lol)…but against more experienced guys I found I lacked the overall body sensitivity that wrestling gives you and I was too erect in my stance and I went flying a lot. In the clinch some of the ging work I have learned was very useful to create space in order to strike and I did this instinctively (the shoulder bump to overhand right worked really well for me before even being shown it for example it was simply an extension of what I always did) and I found it natural to smother my opponents strikes whilst in said clinch. For example bicep control I found very natural. And as I become better at the clinch I see opening for my short hand stuff but Thai and standard grappling are my base, anything added to it is a bonus not a mainstay.

On the ground nothing helped lol it was just too alien, although now I am more experienced I find the short power work I did very useful in striking form side control or inside the guard

Standing and working at kick boxing range I found myself using mostly CLF stuff like overhands, long range hooks and uppercuts, my kicks both low and high give guys nightmares but that is as much to do with my korean background as my TCMA. For me on the outside CLF worked the best, my other arts the least, they looked for a bridge or concentrated on covering the centre line and working in close, but most guys these days don’t offer a bridge and don’t worry about the centre line and once in close they grab and grapple not bridge fight

So for me what I took from my TCMA was kicks and longer range strikes, sensitivity and some power issueage and footwork in the clinch, and some striking on the ground. Although I should note that most of this came out after I learned the basics of MMA, in other words MMA and grappling is now my base and what TCMA I use is added on top,

Sets I don’t do and don’t miss, I find most arts are built on a few key movements or seeds and then everything else is pretty much window dressing and a lot of the sets are ways of previous masters to show how they used the seeds/art, and this can be near to useless for those of use not built like them or not fighting in the same era and facing different opponents. if you can get those seeds down, understand there way of creating power and the arts theory in my opinion you are good to go

[Yum Cha]

The younger kids from my generation also tried to carry on the YKM/CLF rivalry as well, though other non-martial thing$ were involved....

The CLF Lion dancing is getting pretty sharp. I saw them field 10 lions at the temple in Glebe.

[Yum Cha]

A good question and one I have been thinking about for a while

On the ground nothing helped lol it was just too alien, although now I am more experienced I find the short power work I did very useful in striking form side control or inside the guard


Do you also find a little pressure point knowledge comes in handy? Pushing or grabbing, not striking?

[Frost]

Do you also find a little pressure point knowledge comes in handy? Pushing or grabbing, not striking?

To be honest yes and no how’s that for a response:o) yes they came in handy on occasion but most grapplers know them and so they don’t work that well (and they showed me a few more that I didn’t know lol!)

Most good grapplers are used to pressure point attacks and have developed a high degree of tolerance to pain, they are used to people pressing various points on their legs to get them to open guard, they are used to face bars, chokes across various points on the face and neck….. h*ll I have seen guys grind their chins into peoples eye sockets to get a response or ram up hard underneath the nose to get a response, but things that work when drilling hardly ever work in hard rolling/sparring when the adreline is up, and as for in competition forget it, pressure point and pain movements that work in drilling can end up looking very silly when the other guy is prepared to suck it up and takes the pain

[Iron_Eagle_76]

One of my major pet peeves is guys who try and use pressure points in a non grappling situation. In other words, the d-bag who teaches standing pressure points in the grab me, now I will apply them scenerio. Completely useless crap is what that is.

I don't proclaim to be a great grappler but if you do not have control of your opponent how can these techniques work? We used to share a building/school with a Karate class and before our class once we had a guy teaching pressure points, on, gasp, women and children! He than would feed everyone a load of garbage about how he could put down the biggest, toughest opponent. So when some of us stepped up to let him demo on us he backtracked and started making excuses why he wouldn't. Pressure points can work in some scenirios but you have to have control of your opponent. If you have them in full or side mount, yeah could be pulled off. Not when your standing and grabbing the arm, unless it's someone 50 lbs lighter and weaker than you.

[Lokhopkuen]

I started out in JKD/WC. Like most people in the TMA's I was pretty brainwashed. The only thing that kept me from getting completely brainwashed and continuing to question things was that I always competed along the way. Competition will always help to keep you focused on reality.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1185890/coochi-coochi-coo-o.gif
:rolleyes::rolleyes::D

[EarthDragon]

knifefighter is in idiot

[MasterKiller]

Lokhopkuen is a scholar and a gentleman. Well played, sir.

[David Jamieson]

Crikey Kisu!!! :eek:


I mean ..Nice one! :p

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.kickassmma.com/images/ufc-87-edith-1.jpg

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.mmafightworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/ringgirls2.jpg
This is all they had to tell me, sh!t pass my guard!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1185890/coochi-coochi-coo-o.gif
:rolleyes::rolleyes::D

And I think to myself, what a wonderful world !

[Knifefighter]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1185890/coochi-coochi-coo-o.gif


Isn't there some kind of law about posting pics of your daughter like that on the internet?

[Drake]

If that's his daughter, then....

Knifefighter, I lay prostrate at your feeet and ask that you accept me as your student. I will live in your home and serve as a guardian for your family, especially your sweet, sweet daughter...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok guys, the last couple of posts were highly inappropriate.
Clean it up please.

[Drake]

Ok guys, the last couple of posts were highly inappropriate.
Clean it up please.

Pot/Kettle/Black :D

I think it's safe to asset that's not really his daughter. There's sensitivity, then there's hypersensitivity.

If they were actual pics of a daughter he may or may not have, and someone made those comments, I'd understand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pot/Kettle/Black :D

I think it's safe to asset that's not really his daughter. There's sensitivity, then there's hypersensitivity.

If they were actual pics of a daughter he may or may not have, and someone made those comments, I'd understand.

You know the rules, mothers and children are off limits.
That's how wars get started, LOL !

[Drake]

You know the rules, mothers and children are off limits.
That's how wars get started, LOL !

I just don't want this thread deleted...for obvious reasons...

[KC Elbows]

Just because she calls you daddy doesn't mean there's a blood relation. Except in some branches of Mormonism, and then she usually is wearing a frock and looks like donkey.

[David Jamieson]

Just because she calls you daddy doesn't mean there's a blood relation. Except in some branches of Mormonism, and then she usually is wearing a frock and looks like donkey.

...with thick glasses

[KC Elbows]

...with thick glasses

No, she looks like donkey even when you're not wearing your glasses.

[andyhaas]

MMA = pablumized MA with sparring.
CMA these days = pablumized MA with no sparring.

Maybe that's why MMA is sortof popular these days. MA popularity seems to be WAY down compared to even 3 years ago, though, for some reason, overall. (IMHO because of a lot of negativity plus locking up violent criminals).

[Lokhopkuen]

You know the rules, mothers and children are off limits.
That's how wars get started, LOL !

Some people just don't understand that fat meat is greasy.;)

[Lokhopkuen]

MMA = pablumized MA with sparring.
CMA these days = pablumized MA with no sparring.

Maybe that's why MMA is sortof popular these days. MA popularity seems to be WAY down compared to even 3 years ago, though, for some reason, overall. (IMHO because of a lot of negativity plus locking up violent criminals).

http://drivenet.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/angry_gorilla_small.jpg