where did you get your opinon about Kung fu?

[EarthDragon]

This came to my mind on another thread.
I have heard SO many people talk about crappy TCMA schools, bad instructors, silk pajamma's, schools that teach forms and no fighting yadda yadda.

Please tell me where you get your point of view or how did you reach your opinion? based on what?
how many schools you have joined?
how many schools you have enrolled in and spent longer than a year in?
how many websites you looked at?
how many other people have you swayed your opionon because of what they said?
ie. bandwagon jumping

My point is alot of people on here base thier opinions and make sweeping assumptions about something so broad you could'nt possible do it if you spent your life pursuing it.
So how do people speak for the entuire TCMA world based soley on a few bad expereicnes?

If you live in Oklahoma and theres 1 kung fu school in your town and it suckes why say all kung fu schools suck bazsed on your expereicne? how could you possible say or base your opinion without visting ALL the schools in the US? please answer honestly

[Knifefighter]

This came to my mind on another thread.
I have heard SO many people talk about crappy TCMA schools, bad instructors, silk pajamma's, schools that teach forms and no fighting yadda yadda.

Please tell me where you get your point of view or how did you reach your opinion? based on what?
how many schools you have joined?
how many schools you have enrolled in and spent longer than a year in?
how many websites you looked at?
how many other people have you swayed your opionon because of what they said?
ie. bandwagon jumping

My point is alot of people on here base thier opinions and make sweeping assumptions about something so broad you could'nt possible do it if you spent your life pursuing it.
So how do people speak for the entuire TCMA world based soley on a few bad expereicnes?

If you live in Oklahoma and theres 1 kung fu school in your town and it suckes why say all kung fu schools suck bazsed on your expereicne? how could you possible say or base your opinion without visting ALL the schools in the US? please answer honestly

From the other thread:

The "assumptions" are based on the fact that 95% of all kung fu schools have nothing but forms and demos as any kind of evidence of what they do in training. Combine that with the fact that you've got a pretty big group of yahoos who claim they train without gear with "street without rules" techniques and take said techniques from the forms, and you've got a pretty good case for making this kind of assumption.

[David Jamieson]

from my dad.

he taught me what "kung fu" really was.
I think many people don't understand that.
That's cool, I'm happy where i'm at.

[goju]

Nothings specifically really formed my opinion i just realize there is some good and some bad, theres been garbage and quality stuff in martial arts for centuries

[EarthDragon]

I honestly would love to hear these answers, its like going to a returant that serves thai, not liking it and saying all thai food is spicey and it sux, without visting other thai resturants. a litte unfair dont you think?

exacly, go ju, but why do others say there no fighting in Kung fu , its all forms, TCMA cant fight, we dont use technique on reisisting oppnents, etc etc

[Knifefighter]

I honestly would love to hear these answers, its like going to a returant that serves thai, not liking it and saying all thai food is spicey and it sux, without visting other thai resturants. a litte unfair dont you think?

More like knowing that Thai food tends to have a certain spiciness and knowing that you are allergic to spicy foods.

You can get a pretty good feel for what Thai food tastes like by going to a few Thai restaurants. Then, when you find out that Thai food uses the same kinds of ingredients in their dishes, you can make an intelligent assumption about it without visiting every Thai restaurant in the world.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Personally I try not to make judgement calls on any style or system until I have seen or experienced it first hand. I have met some great Kung Fu players and some bad ones. I think the argument concerning Kung Fu as compared to MMA is the fact that Kung Fu schools are not producing the fighters like MMA gyms do. It may be that they don't want to compete in that venue, it may be that they are form fairies who couldn't beat a five year old, it could be that they don't want to.

I live in a rural area with not a lot of martial arts schools so I can tell statistically there are three Kung Fu schools, one which is good and two that are pretty bad. There are also three MMA gyms and two boxing gyms, all of which produce fighters who compete. From a statistical stand point it comes down to production and what is seen by the general public. If you have a school that is competing and winning in MMA, and regardless of you like it or not it seems to be the standard by which all is judged, it will be viewed as a good school.

Personally if there is hard sparring and good training methods involved a school does not necissarly have to produce a lot of competitive (those who are always competiing) fighters, but it certainly helps in the eyes of those watching.;)

[EarthDragon]

iron eagle

I think the argument concerning Kung Fu as compared to MMA is the fact that Kung Fu schools are not producing the fighters like MMA gyms do.

I did , as well as hosted the world pancrase champion, not manyTCMA schools can say that, however it doesnt make me a better kung fu school then the school who doesnt compete does it?

perhaps to some close minded people it does, becuse if you dont compete your nothing, but this is comming form people who havent actuially competed! I ask people please show me your fighting record and I gt ...we ll I havenet actually entered yet........., but just because your school not turning out fighters for competition areans only doesnt make ALL kung fu schools form teachers/collectors and silk PJ wearers who cant fight.... this is my point dont ASSUME

5857

[Iron_Eagle_76]

iron eagle


I did , as well as hosted the world pancrase champion doesnt make me a better kung fu school then the school who doesnt compete does it? perhaps to some close minded peopel it does, but jsut becuse tour not turing out fighters for competition arenas only doesnt make ALL kung fu schools form teachers and slk PJ wearers.... this is my point dont ASSUME
5857

If you read my whole post you would see I didn't assume anything. I am giving you a reason based on statistics as to why Kung Fu schools are not looked as highly upon as MMA or other combat sport gyms. For Kung Fu there is not so much of a testing ground like there is for MMA. Even if you consider San Shou and Shuai Jiao, sure people with a base or knowledge of TCMA compete or know what they are but they don't have the following MMA has. Human perception is something not easily changed once an opinion has been formed.

[MasterKiller]

Have you ever been to a large tournament? I've been to many Taiji Legacy and AAU events, not to mention smaller local torunaments. There will be 1,000s of people competing in forms. As soon as San Da starts, it's a ghost town.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Have you ever been to a large tournament? I've been to many Taiji Legacy and AAU events, not to mention smaller local torunaments. There will be 1,000s of people competing in forms. As soon as San Da starts, it's a ghost town.

Yep, the last time I competed in San Shou there were myself, one other Kung Fu guy, and two Muay Thai guys. We can even get our own **** people to compete in it!:rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

IE, Oh I read throughly and wasnt gearing it towards you at all, You for one I respect based on that type of thinking and not generalizing anything. its a shame that most people are what I coined as "SHEEPLE" yes I made that up many years ago, (please use it for your own entertainment) because its soooo true, they will do as thier lead or told reguardless of thier own personal thoughts. Like beleiving what the media says without digging deeper to the real truth or geting a second opinion or other perspective..........

and you are correct once people form an opinion that are reluctant to change it even after they are proven worng, its an ego thing, sad but true.

[EarthDragon]

MK so your basing your opinon on a cheesy kung fu tourney made for familes? thats like basing karate on the paul mitchell team..... please open your perceptions wider

[Knifefighter]

iron eagle


I did , as well as hosted the world pancrase champion, not manyTCMA schools can say that, however it doesnt make me a better kung fu school then the school who doesnt compete does it?

perhaps to some close minded people it does, becuse if you dont compete your nothing, but this is comming form people who havent actuially competed! I ask people please show me your fighting record and I gt ...we ll I havenet actually entered yet........., but just because your school not turning out fighters for competition areans only doesnt make ALL kung fu schools form teachers/collectors and silk PJ wearers who cant fight.... this is my point dont ASSUME

5857

A one time seminar does not make your school a fighting school.

Whats funny is having to use an outside seminar (most seminars are about learning new techs and have very little full on training/sparring) as proof of having a fighting school.

[MasterKiller]

MK so your basing your opinon on a cheesy kung fu tourney made for familes? thats like basing karate on the paul mitchell team..... please open your perceptions wider

Those tournaments are where traditionalists come to showcase their skills against their own kind. Taiji Legacy has competitors from all over the world, including *gasp* China. What you see is, pretty much everyone is doing the same thing.

I know there are tough schools tucked away in an alley somewhere that don't advertise, etc... But they are not the norm. That doesn't change the fact that fighting is not emphasized in the majority of tradtional schools.

[Lucas]

ive formed my own opinion based on everything ive seen and experienced. some good some bad. im a realist, i dont go to a total extreme in any direction. i understand there is good, bad and ugly in everything.

so i go through life basically sifting and finding the good, cutting away the bad, and seeing if the ugly is useful.

i always look at the whole picture as much as i can and try to keep things in a realistic perspective at all times.

[Lucas]

fighting is not emphasized in the majority of tradtional schools.

*important*

[TenTigers]

From the other thread:

The "assumptions" are based on the fact that 95% of all kung fu schools have nothing but forms and demos as any kind of evidence of what they do in training. Combine that with the fact that you've got a pretty big group of yahoos who claim they train without gear with "street without rules" techniques and take said techniques from the forms, and you've got a pretty good case for making this kind of assumption.
So if the Ballet school demos dancing rather than bar work, plies,stretching, etc then they are crap?

[David Jamieson]

Those tournaments are where traditionalists come to showcase their skills against their own kind. Taiji Legacy has competitors from all over the world, including *gasp* China. What you see is, pretty much everyone is doing the same thing.

I know there are tough schools tucked away in an alley somewhere that don't advertise, etc... But they are not the norm. That doesn't change the fact that fighting is not emphasized in the majority of tradtional schools.

back in the late 80's early nineties when I was still living in winnipeg, we had th dragon's cup tournament which was one of the early full contact kung fu venues available.

It was called san da and it was typical fo waht san shou/ san da is now.

The year I was in, I lost my fight. I sucked a lot of wind that day, but the overall winner was a buk hsing clf guy who was a puncher.

kung fu has been scrapping in tourneys and in their clubs and yeah, on the street too for a long time.

you guys can't possibly point at modern performance wu shu and declare that is all martial arts and you can't look at these american *****s with their nascar gis and shyte marketing props and other phoney baloney wanna be david carradines and believe that is all there is to kung fu. I think that while those guys are glaringly apparent, they do not represent chinese martial arts anyway. They really are crap and kung fu guys stay faaaaar away from them.

kung fu is deep, it's good, it's tasty.

[Lucas]

also i see a huge difference between learning how to do something, and practicing in a manner that you can apply what you learn in a realistic scenario.

example:

learning how to generate explosive power with all your elbows on a bag or what not, then the transition of how thats really going to play out when you are going against an actual person. you need to be pushed against all those variables to see how that power generation actually works in a combat situation.

thats a huge part of the disconnect ive seen in many trad schools.

[Knifefighter]

So if the Ballet school demos dancing rather than bar work, plies,stretching, etc then they are crap?

Generally, it would be the opposite. Evidence of bar work, plies,stretching with no evidence of any actual dancing would generally mean they are crap.

Notice how ballet schools have evidence of their performances, as well as the techniques that lead to those performances. People who are doing, generally have lots of evidence of that doing.

[YouKnowWho]

Have you ever been to a large tournament? I've been to many Taiji Legacy and AAU events, not to mention smaller local torunaments. There will be 1,000s of people competing in forms. As soon as San Da starts, it's a ghost town.
I don't think we should include those "CMA for health" perople into our discussion.


I know there are tough schools tucked away in an alley somewhere ...
If all CMA guys train like this, we won't have this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM

[EarthDragon]

MK
OK but lets look at the arena its mostly wushu crap made to showcase thier style in a flavorful way not the soup to nutz combat side of thier arts. heck weapons are huge part but they obviously will never use them EVER.




I know there are tough schools tucked away in an alley somewhere that don't advertise, etc... But they are not the norm.

very true, some schools i know in SF might not let you join... they are not looking for money or to run a MA biz, no little ninja classes for kids and what not


That doesn't change the fact that fighting is not emphasized in the majority of tradtional schools.
again this is a sweeping assumption, and unless you go to the school and watch the class and ask the instructor then you are assuming, and wek all know what assuming means,
people walk into my school and see what it is right away, no sashes,, no weapons, no uniforms, or teasting fees just a t shirt and we get down I charge 60.00 a month no cotntracts
anything that doesnt work in comabat is not taught repetiuously its covered but not taught alot , I teach for show and for fighting and they are very different, most schools teach this way they call it closed door teaching, last week I hit my student in the face pretty hard, he reply was crap i didnt block, most schools are afraid of law suites in this situation.
I dont teach kids, no teens and I am curently teaching 5 black belts from other styles who never learned how to fight, they joine becuse they know I have a repution for o BS, otherise no BB would join to re learn what they missed

[David Jamieson]

also i see a huge difference between learning how to do something, and practicing in a manner that you can apply what you learn in a realistic scenario.

example:

learning how to generate explosive power with all your elbows on a bag or what not, then the transition of how thats really going to play out when you are going against an actual person. you need to be pushed against all those variables to see how that power generation actually works in a combat situation.

thats a huge part of the disconnect ive seen in many trad schools.

thi is a good observation, although i don't fully agree.

schools that teach kung fu, as opposed to larping and calling it kung fu, train shape, then shape into resistance, then shape into moving resistance. It's a pretty standard plan.

learn the tech, learn to generate force(bag/mitt/drill), learn to use it (spar/fight).
that's how real kung fu schools do it.

day cares, not so much.

I honestly cringe when I think of the state of american kung fu. You will have a harder time finding a club and getting brought in up here in my experience.

It's like converting to judaism except its a sifu who rejects you 3 times at least before you get to learn how to suffer. :p

and yeah, we have a few milquetoast places, but not many. strip mall dojos are actually rare here.

[EarthDragon]

this makes me want to video my claass one night and show you how we train. and I am a TCMA school.

[xcakid]

Please tell me where you get your point of view or how did you reach your opinion? based on what?
how many schools you have joined?
how many schools you have enrolled in and spent longer than a year in?
how many websites you looked at?
how many other people have you swayed your opionon because of what they said?


Experience. But I tend not to post unless I have run across a certain scenario.

Have been to 8 schools, 9 if you count one that I co owned.

6 schools in which I spent more than a year in. 3 of which, including my current one, I have attained a black sash.

Websites? Too numerous to count.

:D

[Knifefighter]

I don't think we should include those "CMA for health" perople into our discussion.


If all CMA guys train like this, we won't have this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM

Sure we would. That's no different than doing forms, light touch work, and breaking things. Without the actual contact, it's no better than the karate schools who do the same thing.

[EarthDragon]

xacid.
do you think kung fu school teach only forms, wear PJ's and cannot fight? based on your listing below?

[Knifefighter]

this makes me want to video my claass one night and show you how we train. and I am a TCMA school.

Perfect. Do it. No better way to prove that you ARE different than the other 99% of schools out there.

[David Jamieson]

Perfect. Do it. No better way to prove that you ARE different than the other 99% of schools out there.

I suspect you would just be critical and posture and what not as is your MO whether he did it or not.

YOu know, because that's how you've shown yourself to be around here.

[Knifefighter]

I teach for show and for fighting

You want to know where people get their "assumptions"? Right there... right from the horses mouth. The very guy who was asking the questions in the first place. You claim you are the real deal, yet you just stated you teach for show.

There ya go, right there.

At least some of your time is spent teaching students for show. Real combat systems learned a long time ago you can't afford to teach for show. If you do, the programs that teach for everything that is functional will soon surpass you.

[Lucas]

thi is a good observation, although i don't fully agree.

schools that teach kung fu, as opposed to larping and calling it kung fu, train shape, then shape into resistance, then shape into moving resistance. It's a pretty standard plan.

learn the tech, learn to generate force(bag/mitt/drill), learn to use it (spar/fight).
that's how real kung fu schools do it.

day cares, not so much.

I honestly cringe when I think of the state of american kung fu. You will have a harder time finding a club and getting brought in up here in my experience.

It's like converting to judaism except its a sifu who rejects you 3 times at least before you get to learn how to suffer. :p

and yeah, we have a few milquetoast places, but not many. strip mall dojos are actually rare here.

ya im vague as usual, what i mean is that some schools forgo the last step too often. as in the application with pressure, resistance, and aggression.

[MasterKiller]

http://nyc.barstoolsports.com/files/2010/10/Screen-shot-2010-10-13-at-11.24.26-AM.png

[Knifefighter]

I suspect you would just be critical and posture and what not as is your MO whether he did it or not.

YOu know, because that's how you've shown yourself to be around here.

Nope, not at all. More often than not, I've been the person on the WC forum who supports the guys who have posted sparring/fighting vids, while the WC folks were busy saying it wasn't "real" WC.

As a matter of fact, if you posted a clip or two of you doing the same kind of full-contact fighting, I'd support you also.

Of course, we all know that will never happen because any full contact you have done is purely in your mind.

[EarthDragon]

thats what training and drilling is for............. CHIRST ! its like no one really learned kung fu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this TCMA a.k.a kung fu
1. get shown a technique by your shifu
2. practice it till it hurts over and over till you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu, and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it over and over till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking
5. use it in a real situation/combat, sparring etc and see if you can do it correctly
6. if not go back to number 2 and redo it agin and again


this is what kung fu is.... hard work
if you are lazy and or impatient and not looking to be good at anything and not willing to put in this hard work, your not doing kung fu

[YouKnowWho]

Sure we would. That's no different than doing forms, light touch work, and breaking things. Without the actual contact, it's no better than the karate schools who do the same thing.

It's impossible to satisfy your "cup 1/2 empty" attitude. If I say

- Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are conservative, you will say, "They are not conservative enough".
- Keith Olbermann and Ed Schultz are liberal, you will say, "They are not liberal enough".

[Violent Designs]

thats what training and drilling is for............. CHIRST ! its like no one really leanred kung fu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this TCMA aka kung fu
1. get shown a techniqe by your shifu
2. pratice it till it hurts and you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu , and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking
5. use it in a real situation/ combat, sparring etc and see if you can do it correctly
6. if not go back to number 2


this is what kung fu is.... hard work
if you are lazy and or impatient and not looking to be good at anything and not willing to put in this hard work, your not doing kung fu

Yeah but most CMA schools don't teach like this.

It doesn't matter how YOUR school is run or how hardcore it is or how many fighters you are producing.

It's ALL THE OTHER SCHOOLS.

[Knifefighter]

thats what training and drilling is for............. CHIRST ! its like no one really leanred kung fu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this TCMA aka kung fu
1. get shown a techniqe by your shifu
2. pratice it till it hurts and you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu , and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking


1,2,3,&4 are exactly what is wrong with most kung fu and why it falls so short of the sport model.

More evidence that you are pretty much exactly like every other school out there.

[lkfmdc]

I am about to step back into class, BUT

Anyone who knows me knows I came up in NYC's chinatown, I have studied with a lot of different teachers

I went to national events and traveled the country well over a decade

I was a national advisor to three different kung fu groups

I promoted national level tournaments

I happed to be the adopted disciple of a famous teacher and speak Chinese, thus having access to places a lot of people don't and never will

So, if you're going to try and say "well, you just haven't seen it" well LMFAO at you, LMFAO at you......

[EarthDragon]

violent,
this is how ALL TCMA schools are taught!!!! perhaps your talking about fat out of shape white guys running a busines in the mall and having kids classes, girls with braces earning black belts, a wall full of plastic weapons, and all the other BS crap thats out there,

however these are not TCMA schools these are wushu or AMERICAN martial arts schools. paul mitchell flashy tounemnent schools, not traditional

I just had an apfiany,, is this what All you guys are talking about when you say TCMA?????????

[Knifefighter]

It's impossible to satisfy your "cup 1/2 empty" attitude.

Sure it is... simply point to what effective programs are doing:

If all the kung fu guys were doing this, there would be no argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nCgNTByiE

[EarthDragon]

david ross,
with your shifu and mine we know what traditional means right?, is it possible we are the only ones on this forum that have real teachers who are fighters and dont teach crap?
I doubt it, I cannot accept the fact that people say 99% of schools out there teach in the ways you all are speaking of ... if so i gotta get out more, or advertise more LOL I should be rich....

[Violent Designs]

violent,
this is how ALL TCMA schools are taught!!!! perhaps your talking about fat out of shape white guys running a busines in the mall and having kids classes, girls with braces earning black belts, a wall full of plastic weapons, and all the other BS crap thats out there,

however these are not TCMA schools these are wushu or AMERICAN martial arts schools. paul mitchell flashy tounemnent schools, not traditional

I just had an apfiany,, is this what All you guys are talking about when you say TCMA?????????

Umm, no, that's not how "all" TCMA schools are taught, far from it.

Most just hit the air all day, do their forms, do their 2-man drills, never or RARELY spar, RARELY hit the bag, RARELY do any padwork and if they do their pad holder sucks, etc, etc.

[Knifefighter]

violent,
this is how ALL TCMA schools are taught!!!! perhaps your talking about fat out of shape white guys running a busines in the mall and having kids classes, girls with braces earning black belts, a wall full of plastic weapons, and all the other BS crap thats out there,

however these are not TCMA schools these are wushu or AMERICAN martial arts schools. paul mitchell flashy tounemnent schools, not traditional

I just had an apfiany,, is this what All you guys are talking about when you say TCMA?????????

I don't know about them, but I am talking about these:



1. get shown a technique by your shifu
2. practice it till it hurts over and over till you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu, and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it over and over till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking
5. use it in a real situation/combat, sparring etc and see if you can do it correctly


and this:


I teach for show and for fighting

All of the above IS crap teaching.

[David Jamieson]

Nope, not at all. More often than not, I've been the person on the WC forum who supports the guys who have posted sparring/fighting vids, while the WC folks were busy saying it wasn't "real" WC.

As a matter of fact, if you posted a clip or two of you doing the same kind of full-contact fighting, I'd support you also.

Of course, we all know that will never happen because any full contact you have done is purely in your mind.

I don't feel compelled to post videos of training sessions because some guy on kfm asks me too.

lol.

more often than not, you're slaggin on guys who train trad kung fu for whatever reasons.

mind you, the wing chun forum is a perfect place for an argument and for making mountains out of molehills it seems.

[Knifefighter]

I don't feel compelled to post videos of training sessions because some guy on kfm asks me too.

lol.

more often than not, you're slaggin on guys who train trad kung fu for whatever reasons.

mind you, the wing chun forum is a perfect place for an argument and for making mountains out of molehills it seems.

I don't think I've ever given anyone a hard time for putting the real deal up (other than guys like the "deadly" masters who end up clueless and helpless after making outrageous claims).

I only rag on people who make outrageous or clueless claims without any evidence to back it up.

[Knifefighter]

I don't feel compelled to post videos of training sessions because some guy on kfm asks me too.

Yet, you feel compelled to spend a pretty significant amount of time responding and posting to people on kfm.

[SPJ]

where did I know about Kung fu?

on the floor and ate dirts.

my relatives served in the military and police.

I was thrown a lot by shuai jiao and qin na from cousins and friends.

yes we did not have a matt, but only dirt floor, that was in the 1960s.

we just swept the dirt and went at it

and when we were done, we swept the dirt on the floor again.

dirts are everywhere, in your mouth, eyes, face, hairs---

---

[YouKnowWho]

If all the kung fu guys were doing this, there would be no argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nCgNTByiE

You will still say:

- Helio Gracie can choke all them out.
- Where is the ground fight?
- Their opponents are just too weak.
- They have no chance to deal with any MMA guy.
- They don't kick like MT guys.
- They don't punch like boxers.
- ...

:(

[David Jamieson]

Yet, you feel compelled to spend a pretty significant amount of time responding and posting to people on kfm.

so what? it's my life, I can do what I choose. Besides, I gotta be one of the longest standing members here.

Cripes, I'm pre-Gene! lol

[EarthDragon]

SPJ,
so based on your post is 99% of kung fu, flowers, forms and PJs?

or are there a lot of honest kung fu peopel out there serving hard knocks

[EarthDragon]

pregene? LMAO

[David Jamieson]

I don't think I've ever given anyone a hard time for putting the real deal up (other than guys like the "deadly" masters who end up clueless and helpless after making outrageous claims).

I only rag on people who make outrageous or clueless claims without any evidence to back it up.

seriously, do you think I've made outrageous claims about Kung Fu?

as for showing what I have and how I train etc...well, in my opinion, that's not for public consumption.

people want to see what I got? Well, they gotta shovel some snow to get to the cabin and even then, I might not open the door. That's just how I am. :)

[EarthDragon]

why bother to respond to knifefighter's one pony show? everyone even said hes too stubborn to admitt he incorrect even if its just once!
he would never and will never even for a second say. OK I see your point and agree, he obviously a very bitter person, there is no way a human cant for once say OK perhaps you are right adn admitt 1 just 1 faulty post.

ignore him your life will be easier,

[SoCo KungFu]

violent,
this is how ALL TCMA schools are taught!!!!
No, no its not at all!!!


perhaps your talking about fat out of shape white guys running a busines in the mall and having kids classes, girls with braces earning black belts, a wall full of plastic weapons, and all the other BS crap thats out there,

however these are not TCMA schools these are wushu or AMERICAN martial arts schools. paul mitchell flashy tounemnent schools, not traditional

No, this is about the perfect description of most schools out there.....

ugh...

As for me? I have trained under 3 kung fu Sifu (2 Mantis and 1 Hung gar). One even posts here. Mantis was a forms factory. I at one time knew upwards of 15 forms. If we were lucky we'd get a day a week for drills. Sparring didn't exist. And this is from a pretty well known lineage among mantis members.

Hung gar I trained under a direct student of Buksam Kong and Frank Yee. Was not as forms factory as the mantis, but still very much forms. Only reason I got to spar was cuz I started taking private lessons and sparred sifu. Sparring was NOT done in group classes, where it should have been done most of all.

These are guys who learned from the tops of their styles and I see what they are producing. Are we supposed to believe that somewhere someone else is picking up after them all? Come on man.

I've competed in tournaments against guys from Leung Shum's groups, Yang Jwing Ming's groups, guys from Cali, guys from China, guys from Europe and S. Africa. All of them the same. Forms forms forms. Not one would be in sparring divisions let alone San Da. Its no exaggeration when forms divisions can have in the hundreds of competitors, yet the sparring may have 10 on a good turnout. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the sparring and san da divisions end up with classmates fighting each other cuz there's no one else. How telling is it when a guy can lose his only fight, and still walk out with a silver medal...?

And its not even just kung fu. I trained Aikido IN Japan under the grandson (or was it great grandson?) of Ueshiba himself. Totally unrealistic training. All compliance work. There were 2 karate schools in Japan where I lived that were training fighters. And that was on the Muay Thai nights.....

On the flip side. I've trained in 2 MMA gyms. Only reason I left the first was cuz military made me move. Everyday sparring. Everyday conditioning. Everyday drills. Both schools have people fighting regularly. Both schools have produced amateur champions. Both schools have produced professional fighters....


I just had an apfiany,, is this what All you guys are talking about when you say TCMA?????????

Yes, this IS the state of TCMA and TMA in general.

[David Jamieson]

why bother to respond to knifefighter's one pony show? everyone even said hes too stubborn to admitt he incorrect even if its just once!
he would never and will never even for a second say. OK I see your point and agree, he obviously a very bitter person, there is no way a human cant for once say OK perhaps you are right adn admitt 1 just 1 faulty post.

ignore him your life will be easier,

yeah, i was ignoring him, and several others.

but meh, it's just the serious muthafuggin internet, so, screw it. lol :D

[EarthDragon]

Soco
seriously man I had no idea... I cannot beleive a mantis guy teaches only forms.. who is it?I would like to call him out seriuosly what does he have to hide? mantis is ALL fighting

I know its not a 8 step guy for sure shyun my shifu empasizes fighting . that's your fitrst thing when you walk into his school is he wants you to fight one of the students. he doesnt need any more wannbies.

I invite anyone to train with my class for a day adn see what the deal is. ask most of the guys on the mantis baord. I love the application. its w3hat makes me love mantis its proven itself to really work.

[Knifefighter]

You will still say:

- Helio Gracie can choke all them out.
- Where is the ground fight?
- Their opponents are just too weak.
- They have no chance to deal with any MMA guy.
- They don't kick like MT guys.
- They don't punch like boxers.
- ...

:(

Nope... those guys are doing great. They may not have a ground game, but they are doing everything else right. Other than, maybe some ground work, that's exactly what I'm talking about for realistic ability.

I doubt you would hear those guy talking about "street deadly techniques" and throws that would incapacitate someone.

[SoCo KungFu]

I will say this, I have met to my surprise 1 good fighting sifu. At least he tried to teach it. He grew up in Harlem, served in the Army. Was a Hung sifu. We used to talk about how in Germany they have a panel that registered kung fu teachers to teach. Maybe we need that here in the US.

[EarthDragon]

part of the daily work we do is application from a grab or a shoot or someons hand on you


5858

[SoCo KungFu]

I wish the yakuza would have stayed the f**k out of Kamikazi's in Chatan close to where I lived in Japan so it wouldn't have gotten closed down. The only place I used to know that you could go see an open invitation for traditionalists trading some blows....they even let us gaijin fight...

[Knifefighter]

part of the daily work we do is application from a grab or a shoot or someons hand on you


5858

LOL @ posting a demo pic from 10 years ago as evidence of real training.

Which would be move evidence for why most kung fu is so bad... teachers who have no clue they are clueless about teaching functionality.

The most ironic thing about this whole thread is the guy who started it asking where the assumptions come from, basically reinforcing the assumptions.

[Knifefighter]

seriously, do you think I've made outrageous claims about Kung Fu?

as for showing what I have and how I train etc...well, in my opinion, that's not for public consumption.

people want to see what I got? Well, they gotta shovel some snow to get to the cabin and even then, I might not open the door. That's just how I am. :)

Your "outrageous" claims have been about the sport model of training and how most sport participants are injured and washed up after they stop competing, as well as the whole forms allow for fighting bullcr@p.

[YouKnowWho]

Nope... those guys are doing great.
It's nice to hear that you are not as "extream" as I though.

I had a co-worker who would never agree with me on anything. One day he finally said, "I agree with you on this subject today, but I reserve my right not to agree with you if I can find any reason later on." In one meeting, I proposed 2 options A and B. I was in favor of option B, but I told him that I was in favor of option A. His objection on my proposal A gave me a pass on my proposal B.

[TenTigers]

thats what training and drilling is for............. CHIRST ! its like no one really learned kung fu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this TCMA a.k.a kung fu
1. get shown a technique by your shifu
2. practice it till it hurts over and over till you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu, and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it over and over till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking
5. use it in a real situation/combat, sparring etc and see if you can do it correctly
6. if not go back to number 2 and redo it agin and again


this is what kung fu is.... hard work
if you are lazy and or impatient and not looking to be good at anything and not willing to put in this hard work, your not doing kung fu

we do it like this-similar but a bit different;
1. Get shown a technique by your Sifu (moi)
2. drill it on the pads
3.drill it hands on with a partner
4. gear up and drill it non-compliant
5. spar. If it doesn't come out in your fighting, repeat steps 2-5
6. repeat steps 2-5 anyway
7.repeat steps 2-5......
oh, and then learn it in the form...

[Knifefighter]

we do it like this-similar but a bit different;
1. Get shown a technique by your Sifu (moi)
2. drill it on the pads
3.drill it hands on with a partner
4. gear up and drill it non-compliant
5. spar. If it doesn't come out in your fighting, repeat steps 2-5
6. repeat steps 2-5 anyway
7.repeat steps 2-5......
oh, and then learn it in the form...

Yep... well, except for the form time wasting part.

[EarthDragon]

ten tigers, then why are all these cats saying TCMA cant fight, dont knwo how to train to fight and cant use thier stuff for fighting?

from where i come from these steps are how you learn anything. but for some reason the new bandwagon armchair students say it only applies to MMA.

[Knifefighter]

ten tigers, then why are all these cats saying TCMA cant fight, dont knwo how to train to fight and cant use thier stuff for fighting?

from where i come from these steps are how you learn anything. but for some reason the new bandwagon armchair students say it only applies to MMA.

Once again proving his cluelessness by his inability to pick up the difference in the steps he posted vs. the steps ten tigers posted.

[EarthDragon]

you guys gotta check out knifefighter doing MMA on the new thread LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[omarthefish]

Sure it is... simply point to what effective programs are doing:

If all the kung fu guys were doing this, there would be no argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nCgNTByiE

Of course the Sanda guys don't really train like that. They don't do forms but most of the other typical kung fu stuff is part of the routine.

- Standard Long Fist kicking with arms out to the sides? Check
- Punching air? Check?
- Dead kicking drills? Check?

Sure there's more to it than that but an awfully large percentage of the training of a professional Sanda guy in China looks the same as what happens in a typical American kung fu school. What the typical American school does isn't so much different as incomplete and less intense.
================================================== ==================
Where does my opinion come from?

I trained at a Sanda school in China for a couple months. Quit because it wasn't really any different from what I was doing in the states at my old TKD school. I didn't come to China for more of the same. I also have a "brother" (dai si-hing) who is a Shuai Jiao coach. He coaches Sanda guys on the throwing aspect of their game. Also chatted with Sanda guys at the gym where I used to work out occasionally.

They do the same stupid stretch kicks and boring padwork you see in any school. They just do sparring and throwing drills on top of that along with running, lots of pushups and lots of situps but, oh yeah, most TKD schools do that too.

Oddly, I can't speak so much for what kung fu schools are doing because I have only personally trained in a couple schools. I tried a WC school in LA for about a month. Thumbs down on that one. Not intense enough and the students had classic blinders on. I've dropped in for a class or two here and there at several of the SF Choi Li Fut schools. That would include hskwarrior's class for a couple months and also trying a class with his teacher and with another one of his "brothers". I visited Zhong Luo's school too and got a taste of White Eyebrow along with watching some of his MMA kids work on some stuff. Met a lot of people in Xi'an too. That sort of "Kung Fu Tourism" combined with my more serious time first with YC Wong (SF) and now with Li Suiyin (China) is where I got my opinion. That a

[David Jamieson]

Your "outrageous" claims have been about the sport model of training and how most sport participants are injured and washed up after they stop competing, as well as the whole forms allow for fighting bullcr@p.

your claim is that I said these things.

a) I indicated that elite athletes are not healthy and have sustained many injuries that in the course of human life are not necessary. I also provided a link to one, but alluded to the several medical journals and there documentation which would confirm that. I would urge you to read someof it if only for your own benefit.

b) I don't think I said forms allow for fighting. I've pretty much recognized forms for what they were from teh get go. I could fight, had fought and had experience in several martial arts that where without forms BEFORE I undertook a serious course of study in Sil Lum Kung Fu

Furthermore, I viewed this knowledge and practice as esoteric and in my own practice, I keep it that way.

hence, I'm not dropping vids, giving free instruction or treating lightly any of the things I have learned to do through teaching and practice. I don't fight for sport, I don't train towards winning matches in ufc style venues.

I train and have done so...well for as long as I can really remember and most certainly the entirity of my adult life.

I prefer Loving quite frankly. :p

that's what counts isn't it. :)

[TenTigers]

Yep... well, except for the form time wasting part.
yeah, you probably wouldn't like our Lion Dancing either....:rolleyes::D

but here's the thing-I don't call my school a "fighting school." never did. Yeah we train, and fight, but we do more than that, and frankly, I'm not into getting pigeon-holed as being so one dimensional. We're just a Kung-Fu school.
Hey, tonight we did a little beginner "iron body" training; sam jien kuen, sjk with strikes to the body, leg and body kicking drills, midsection roundhouse kicking drills, gauntlet (walking through roundhouse kicks to the body) and bare knuckle sparring (body and legs only)
Nothing amazing, and yet, by today's standards it'c considered "hardcore." BTW- I don't consider it hardcore in the least, just banging around a bit. I've been to hardcore schools, where each night you limp home, and you never saw the same guys twice in the same week, because they were hurt. I'm too old fer that sh**.

[SPJ]

SPJ,
so based on your post is 99% of kung fu, flowers, forms and PJs?

or are there a lot of honest kung fu peopel out there serving hard knocks

I do not know about all the schools.

But I do know some teachers in Taiwan, China, Hong Kong and Singapore.

if we like to know how the school is, we have to go and visit first hand.

if you like to know if the apple or orange is good.

we have to pick one up and actually taste it first hand.

I just went to a wine testing, now my taste buds are all numbed or messed up.

I love the red wine from XYZ vineyard

the rest is like pech pech huh huh phew

every one has his or her own taste of wine and food

and definately preference of fighting styles, too

to each his or her own.

[-N-]

1. get shown a technique by your shifu
2. practice it till it hurts over and over till you think you have it down pat
3. show your shifu, and get corrected if need be.
4. if correct do it over and over till its engrained and can be done by instinct without thinking
5. use it in a real situation/combat, sparring etc and see if you can do it correctly
6. if not go back to number 2 and redo it agin and again



1. Get shown a technique by your Sifu (moi)
2. drill it on the pads
3.drill it hands on with a partner
4. gear up and drill it non-compliant
5. spar. If it doesn't come out in your fighting, repeat steps 2-5
6. repeat steps 2-5 anyway
7.repeat steps 2-5......
oh, and then learn it in the form...

I'm more like the 2nd version.

That's what I did with these kids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ0aVWVBe_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-tFPZeqBc

In the first video, they only knew front kick, jumping front kick, round house kick, crescent kick, and a couple punches. You can see the sparring gear and punching bag on the ground by the other kids.

In the second video, they knew side kick, shin kick, leg block, leg check, distancing, trying to take opponent's back, beginning takedowns, body conditioning training.

Even now one of them only learned his second form just last week. In about only 10 minutes, because he already knew all the moves from his other training. He probably doesn't remember the sequence though. But I do have to watch out for his right hook nowadays.

[Frost]

This came to my mind on another thread.
I have heard SO many people talk about crappy TCMA schools, bad instructors, silk pajamma's, schools that teach forms and no fighting yadda yadda.

Please tell me where you get your point of view or how did you reach your opinion? based on what?
how many schools you have joined?
how many schools you have enrolled in and spent longer than a year in?
how many websites you looked at?
how many other people have you swayed your opionon because of what they said?
ie. bandwagon jumping

My point is alot of people on here base thier opinions and make sweeping assumptions about something so broad you could'nt possible do it if you spent your life pursuing it.
So how do people speak for the entuire TCMA world based soley on a few bad expereicnes?

If you live in Oklahoma and theres 1 kung fu school in your town and it suckes why say all kung fu schools suck bazsed on your expereicne? how could you possible say or base your opinion without visting ALL the schools in the US? please answer honestly

so you have hosted 1 mma guy, helped spar with a single fighter, and that makes you a good cross trainer and a fighting coach? rigghhtttttttttttt..............

[EarthDragon]

frost,
please stop following me around and high jacking my thread.
if you cannot keep with the topic and have something postitive to add to the conversation, please refrain from posting, its very rude, thank you

[EarthDragon]

-N-
thats basically they way that I thought most schools teach, in sections, however many people out here are saying differently adn I dont understand why they have strayed away from this type of teaching

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen a few crappy schools in my time, since we are talking about TCMA ( kung fu) the ones I have seen that were crappy were the Energy Lake and Beyond Kung fu ones, there were also the ones by some guy Simon or other that got induceted to the Canadian BB hall of fame(:p) and a couple of WC ones that were pretty bad ( all in the Toronto and Mississuga area), there was a Pak Mei school in Scarborough that wasn't very good ( too deadly for sparring crap), but there were also quite a few Karate schools that were just as bad.
In Europe it wasn't that bad, most MA schools sparred.
There are a few that are more "competition" oriented and over the last few years there are more of them too, which is a good sign.

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1223153/kung-o.gif
:rolleyes::cool:;):D

This came to my mind on another thread.
I have heard SO many people talk about crappy TCMA schools, bad instructors, silk pajamma's, schools that teach forms and no fighting yadda yadda.

Please tell me where you get your point of view or how did you reach your opinion? based on what?
how many schools you have joined?
how many schools you have enrolled in and spent longer than a year in?
how many websites you looked at?
how many other people have you swayed your opionon because of what they said?
ie. bandwagon jumping

My point is alot of people on here base thier opinions and make sweeping assumptions about something so broad you could'nt possible do it if you spent your life pursuing it.
So how do people speak for the entuire TCMA world based soley on a few bad expereicnes?

If you live in Oklahoma and theres 1 kung fu school in your town and it suckes why say all kung fu schools suck bazsed on your expereicne? how could you possible say or base your opinion without visting ALL the schools in the US? please answer honestly

[xcakid]

xacid.
do you think kung fu school teach only forms, wear PJ's and cannot fight? based on your listing below?

Primarily yes. This includes the school I am with now. Commercial schools really have no choice in the matter if they want to keep their doors open.

Here's what I have observed having trained in a number of schools and owning one at one point.

60% out of 100% of the student body will be revolving
90% out of 100% is only there for the work out and will not comeback the first serious injury they get.

40% will actually stay to the advanced ranks.
of that 40% you will have half will actually be serious enough to compete of those a majority will only compete in form.

You will have 10% of the student body that will be interested in fighting. Of that maybe 5% serious enough to want to learn Sanshou/Sanda style fighting. The rest will be happy with point ot continous fighting.

So based on that, if you focus on fighting, given a potentential of 100 students, you would only have 5 students. We've had nearly 4 MMA and Muay Thai schools close in my city over the past year. And our school has grown. This further proves my point.

So commercial school is dictated by what makes money. Cardio Kick Boxing, Forms, and light sparring etc.

Now back to the school I train at. We understand this concept, so primarily we train form and light on sparring. However, for those that want to learn to fight we have a sanda class that is for everyone over the age of 16. Out of a student body of 110+ students, we have 4-5 that show up regularly. We understand the need for fighting, but also understand that the masses "think" they want to learn to fight, but not so much.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Primarily yes. This includes the school I am with now. Commercial schools really have no choice in the matter if they want to keep their doors open.

Here's what I have observed having trained in a number of schools and owning one at one point.

60% out of 100% of the student body will be revolving
90% out of 100% is only there for the work out and will not comeback the first serious injury they get.

40% will actually stay to the advanced ranks.
of that 40% you will have half will actually be serious enough to compete of those a majority will only compete in form.

You will have 10% of the student body that will be interested in fighting. Of that maybe 5% serious enough to want to learn Sanshou/Sanda style fighting. The rest will be happy with point ot continous fighting.

So based on that, if you focus on fighting, given a potentential of 100 students, you would only have 5 students. We've had nearly 4 MMA and Muay Thai schools close in my city over the past year. And our school has grown. This further proves my point.

So commercial school is dictated by what makes money. Cardio Kick Boxing, Forms, and light sparring etc.

Now back to the school I train at. We understand this concept, so primarily we train form and light on sparring. However, for those that want to learn to fight we have a sanda class that is for everyone over the age of 16. Out of a student body of 110+ students, we have 4-5 that show up regularly. We understand the need for fighting, but also understand that the masses "think" they want to learn to fight, but not so much.

I think this is an excellent example of how the masses view maritial arts. To them it is no different than pilates or zoomba, just a different exercise fad. Good for you guys to at least have San Da offered, but it really sucks that this is how it has to be. In my area, it is the opposite. All the TMA schools are closing down and the MMA schools are booming, so I guess it depends on where you are at.

[MasterKiller]

primarily yes. This includes the school i am with now. Commercial schools really have no choice in the matter if they want to keep their doors open.

Here's what i have observed having trained in a number of schools and owning one at one point.

60% out of 100% of the student body will be revolving
90% out of 100% is only there for the work out and will not comeback the first serious injury they get.

40% will actually stay to the advanced ranks.
Of that 40% you will have half will actually be serious enough to compete of those a majority will only compete in form.

You will have 10% of the student body that will be interested in fighting. Of that maybe 5% serious enough to want to learn sanshou/sanda style fighting. The rest will be happy with point ot continous fighting.

So based on that, if you focus on fighting, given a potentential of 100 students, you would only have 5 students. We've had nearly 4 mma and muay thai schools close in my city over the past year. And our school has grown. This further proves my point.

So commercial school is dictated by what makes money. Cardio kick boxing, forms, and light sparring etc.

Now back to the school i train at. We understand this concept, so primarily we train form and light on sparring. However, for those that want to learn to fight we have a sanda class that is for everyone over the age of 16. Out of a student body of 110+ students, we have 4-5 that show up regularly. We understand the need for fighting, but also understand that the masses "think" they want to learn to fight, but not so much.

b i n g o !

[lkfmdc]

I never understand why you guys can't grasp a basic line of logic

1. Kung Fu culture has developed in the opposite direction from fighting, it has evolved into LARP'ing

2. When your culture is LARP'ing, death blasts and things from the local comicon/star trek convention, you do not attract serious students who want to train seriously and maybe fight

3. If you take THAT population and try to teach them to fight, you will have an empty room

But if you tell me there is no market for hard training and fight training, I'll laugh in your face....

[xcakid]

I never understand why you guys can't grasp a basic line of logic

1. Kung Fu culture has developed in the opposite direction from fighting, it has evolved into LARP'ing

2. When your culture is LARP'ing, death blasts and things from the local comicon/star trek convention, you do not attract serious students who want to train seriously and maybe fight

3. If you take THAT population and try to teach them to fight, you will have an empty room

But if you tell me there is no market for hard training and fight training, I'll laugh in your face....

I agree. I think the audience of CMA do not view it as a fighting art. I blame that crappy contemporary wushu for that.

There is definitely a market for the fighting arts. Hell UFC is a multimillion dollar enterprise. However, how does the attraction of an MMA school compare to your regular martial arts school. I would bet, as a whole, you have more traditional MA school students out there than MMA students. Oh sure there are traditional schools playing at teaching MMA, but I would not count those. They are just riding the fad to make money. I would also be willing to bet that the demographic will also have some disparity. I don't see many CEO, 16yo girls or soccer moms taking MMA. A few maybe.

[David Jamieson]

Still think im a commie dave? lol

I don't disagree that one can sell a method to improve health, and to offer ability to defend oneself through that method.

But when it is wrapped in a package of silk with no gold inside, it's dead and yes, there are schools like that.

But there are also median schools such as xcakid is talking about and in my experience, there are more schools like that, than there is the old school little old man and vibrating students schools like you're talking about.

I think you're complaining about how things were in the late 80s and 90s.

The popularity of a more visceral and harder type of fighting has only been in the public eye with any real zap for less than a decade, and it's because of this that you see less of the school that you are complaining about and more of the schools that xcakid is talking about.

However, I still contend that Kung Fu is not a product. You either acquire it somewhere in your life or you do not.

[Lokhopkuen]

I never understand why you guys can't grasp a basic line of logic

1. Kung Fu culture has developed in the opposite direction from fighting, it has evolved into LARP'ing

2. When your culture is LARP'ing, death blasts and things from the local comicon/star trek convention, you do not attract serious students who want to train seriously and maybe fight

3. If you take THAT population and try to teach them to fight, you will have an empty room

But if you tell me there is no market for hard training and fight training, I'll laugh in your face....

Just because you studied CMA for so many years and came away with an empty cup does not mean you need to constantly drone while spilling your sour grapes on the rest of us. Okay you didn't learn how to fight, we understand. To generalize saying that all other schools are like the one you are from is silly.

Stop.

Put down the cool-aid and move along.

Serious you're like a broken iPod playing same sad song over and again......

I only give you a hard time because, well because you deserve it.

[EarthDragon]

lokhop
wait a second, I thought david ross LMFK? studied under chan ti shan or somethign as a closed door student for like 10 years/...... please correct me if i am wrong, but how do you learn from a fighting chinese shifu and NOT learn to fight?
i know david was chubby and out of shape growing up but he still could have learned to fight reguardless.
I have a husky student John who is a tough kid and can take a punch adn can handle himslef pretty well adn he is a biatch to throw.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am always at risk for posting an opinion here. Seems I am a troll or some such. However, forms are indeed a waste of time. The vast majority of schools, including MMA, are just there to make a buck. They teach little, and intend to teach less as time goes by. There must be tens of thousands of fight schools across north America, and very few of them is ever going to produce a champion fighter. I have looked at a lot of video in the past couple of years, and they all sort of looked the same to me. Dark shadowy video with 2 guys dancing around, swinging and grabbing at one another. Nothing I have not seen on a school grounds when I was a kid. No skill, just the willingness to stand there and fight. Proves very little, as most of us here most likely have fought a few times growing up. Boxing and other compititions. A video really don't do much. It is always easy to talk down on someone, but then comes the real question. Can you whip him? If you own a school you can play the big shot, make a few bucks, and let some of your students do your teaching for you. They don't care if you learn or not, just so long as you pay up your bucks.
I have a friend that loves MMA and signed up a year or so ago. Five minutes into his first night they had him rolling on the floor and punching at someone. No sort of training toward the skills he would really need, just rolling on the floor. He is stronger, knows when he is going to get badly beaten, and he still has few technical skills. He has paid out a lot of bucks though. That probably happens with a lot of Martial art schools. At the end of the day, it really don't amount to a hill of beans, cause none of them are going to be fighting anyway. It has all turned into a sport where you have rules and referees to protect you.

[Knifefighter]

It has all turned into a sport where you have rules and referees to protect you.

And that is exactly how to produce the best fighters for when you don't have rules to protect your opponent.

[Hardwork108]

lokhop
wait a second, I thought david ross LMFK? studied under chan ti shan or somethign as a closed door student for like 10 years/......

I have read that too. It seems that the TCMA world is full of "closed door" students. I take all of this with a pinch of salt, myself.

Dave Ross's current MO does not reflect any deep understanding of the TCMAs, no matter that his teacher seems to have been a TCMA legend. The fact is that Chan Tai Chan probably taught hundreds of students throughout his life. I would say that a very, very few of those students went on to become kung fu sifus, others became lawyers, doctors, accountants, bank clerks, cab drivers, and probably a few, including Dave Ross, became kickboxing coaches. Nothing wrong with that initially, except the constant anti-TCMA propaganda by him, and other equally kung fu-clueless MMA-ists.

The anti-TCMA "arguments" that these clueless MMA-ists spew in every other thread can be made by other contact sport tournament fighters, including judokas, greco roman wrestlers, Western Boxers etc. However, this won't change the fact that their point of view in regard to TCMAs will always be ignorant a and lacking in actual training references.



please correct me if i am wrong, but how do you learn from a fighting chinese shifu and NOT learn to fight?
I guess Dave Ross is not his sifu, and never could be.

To learn to apply the relatively (to kickboxing/BJJ/MMA) profound TCMAs requires a longer term approach, at least with most styles. This fact, and the resulting attention span and dedication required, is not everybody's cup of tea, and I guess that is one of the reasons that there is boom in the MMA schools.



i know david was chubby and out of shape growing up but he still could have learned to fight reguardless.
I believe that he still is, but you are not going to get any of the MMA knuckleheads in this thread asking to see video clips of Ross defeating resisting fighters....LOL!



I have a husky student John who is a tough kid and can take a punch adn can handle himslef pretty well adn he is a biatch to throw.
He probably is a dedicated kung fu student, with the correct and evolved mindset, who has found the right teacher.;)

[Hardwork108]

Just because you studied CMA for so many years and came away with an empty cup does not mean you need to constantly drone while spilling your sour grapes on the rest of us. Okay you didn't learn how to fight, we understand. To generalize saying that all other schools are like the one you are from is silly.

I think Ross is amazing, he went into a legit TCMA school with an empty cup and many years later came out of it with the same empty cup.:eek:

I mean how many people do you know who are under achievers to such an extent....LOL! :D

[mickey]

Greetings,

My opinions come from my own experiences, which continue to evolve. I could not have it any other way.


mickey

[Northwind]

My opinion comes from personal experience. Like anything, there's good & bad, legit & cons, etc. And I still prefer TCMA to anything else.

[Dragonzbane76]

My opinion comes from personal experience. Like anything, there's good & bad, legit & cons, etc.

Ditto...

although I still hold a soft spot for TCMA being it was my foundation. My thoughts are try it all you might like something and you might not like another, but trying it at least you know where you stand.

[EarthDragon]

well said mickey and northwind, thank you so much for staying on the thread topic.

[David Jamieson]

There are theories and training methods for combat arts. I study these.

Kung fu can't be realistically defined. The combat arts of China? By that definition you would have to be inside of China for it to be kung fu. When it went to other nations it changed names just as the Indian arts changed their names when they traveled to China. Mongolian wrestling is now called judo. China had the first Sumo wrestling, now the name is changed..shouldn't Sumo be considered kung fu? The Turks used to live in Central China, is Turkish wrestling kung fu? Koreans are a minority in China and the early Korean court was full of Tang Dyansty royalty. We can't even draw borders on culture and race, much less martial arts.

There are no national techniques. Kung fu doesn't exist.

Kung Fu has always been acknowledged as a misnomer in context to martial arts practice.

There is Kung Fu, it's not hard to define and one can possess it in martial arts as well as myriad other disciplines, even mma. :)

[EarthDragon]

yeah it just confusing, when I was a kid kung fu was I thought the style of fighting that came from China, karate Japan, and Taekwondo form Korea, wasnt until i trained under a chinese teacher that told me it just means "skill through hard work" there is a skill though hard work in everything , this is still confused by many at this day and age.

[bawang]

when they say skill and hardwork they didnt mean forms.

[David Jamieson]

In my school we did single movements 1,000 times that we learned any forms. Perfecting posture and frame is everything. After that a form can be used to train combos or hold princibles, not before.

If you look at forms, and even basics, you'll find that without much equivocation they are the same across all styles and the only variation is in the patterns.

some styles have acrobatic bits, but all the meat and potatoes of all kung fu styles or any fighting style really, is the same.

the difference comes in all the layers of other stuff, the training method approach and whether or not the training is complete or not. the goal of the training is equally important.

Your kung fu might not be my kung fu, but it is, at the same time.
you punch, i punch, good mechanics apply to both of us and as we are both human, good mechanics is a limited structure, maybe one variation, but not much.

you kick, i kick, same as above in regards to structure of it.

you throw, I throw, you lock, I lock, you charge, I charge and so on and so forth.

It's what is the same that unifies it all. the differences are stylistic considerations more often than not.

[bawang]

doing fancy posture 1000 times isnt hardwork. hitting sandbag 1000 times is hardwork.

[David Jamieson]

doing fancy posture 1000 times isnt lian gong. hitting sandbag 1000 times is lian gong. 练拳不练功,到老一场空

hitting a sand bag is just hitting a sandbag.
its' all work.

[bawang]

hitting sandbag is sha dai gong. its a specific shaolin skill. doing forms isnt training.

u white guys thinking doing air punches not only is hardwork, its training your gong shows theres a huge problem

[David Jamieson]

hitting sandbag is sha dai gong. its a specific shaolin skill. doing forms isnt training.

hitting a sandbag is hitting a sandbag. it ha sthe same value as slapping any media in a bag that has the quality of sand or hardness.

doing forms is like doing yoga for me. I suppose if you can;'t find intention, then no, it's not training.

go work on the sand bag I guess, that's not fighting though. hitting a sand bag won't make you a fighter anymore than dancing will.

I mean, if that is your focus.

for what it's worth, shaolin didn't invent hitting media in bags to toughen up the hands. :)

[bawang]

hitting sandbag means i am partaking in a traditional chinese martial art excercise, and preserving chinese culture. i am learning about perseverence and emptiness of mind, aspects of chan buddhism.
doing some made up chinatown sh1t by some f@g from guangdong isnt anything.

[bawang]

really man r u really comparing punching a sandbag to moving around in a horse stance? have u ever tried punching a sandbag? wtf man

[David Jamieson]

hitting sandbag means i am partaking in a traditional chinese martial art excercise, and preserving chinese culture. i am learning about perseverence and emptiness of mind, aspects of chan buddhism.
doing some made up chinatown sh1t by some f@g from guangdong isnt anything.

some f@g from guangdong (or wherever) had the idea to hit a bag of sand. :D

You ever shoulder a log flip it, pick it up again and do it again? that tcma too. I use a heavy bag for the same thing and add a stable mount and striking after the throw.

How about pull ups. those are tcma as well, so is lifting weights, hitting bags, breaking, running, working to failure, developing functional strength through weight work based on actual work and so on.

Not to mention weapons! Which are fun! Knowing swordplay is a nice skill to understand.

[Shaolinlueb]

i may have thought i knew a little more then i did in the past. which i regret, but whatever it happens. i got my opinion from firstly my sifu's. then from going to tournaments and meeting other instructors. I met a couple guys on this board and they were very knowledgeable and got me to expand my thinking on kung fu. some of the guys are gene, master killer, dougmav, ten tigers, and all the Florida CLF guys, they were great people. also from what i have seen at tournaments. I have run into great martial artists, and bull**** martial artists. now i just mind my own business and only speak up if the people are *******s like that one dude in Dallas.