The MMA Fad

[wiz cool c]

I think thing have gotten a little out of hand here. MMA we all know is a great sport and has taught us all some valuable lessons. But let's all get a grip on reality here. All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens,don't want to train in or compete in MMA or full contact. But according to some here they are wasting their time, and should quit doing froms, and fight full contact in the ring hit pads only, do hard contact sparring regularly.

First off all the people who train in martial arts for health and fitness,should what quit doing what they are doing and fight full contact? All the old ladys in the park doing tai Chi shuold stop wasting their time and get on the mat. Put on some 12 oz gloves and do hard contact. And all the 9 year olds doing kata, should stop that **** and have some mma bouts,their parents will be so proud.

I have been living in china close to 5 years now, and i will tell you almost no kung fu people here fight or spar, unless they are professionals. They don't have the time or need for it here. there are very few violent crimes here and people aren't physically aggressive here. Ok but america is a different story, there is crime and people do fight. So what to do.

What about people who want to learn self defence? Well not only people from 20 to 35 who are top notch athletes want to be able to protect themselfs from a violent criminal. So what then? Well all martial artist should do some sparring, in my opinion at least. to what level of intesity is up for debate. So what to do then.Well one they can get in the best shape possible for their age and body types. Do some contact training and learn those useless techniques people keep talking about. Weapons,vital area strikes,dirty fighting are valuable for the street. How do i know? Cause I have used them,and guess what ,I also do sports Judo and shuai jiao. Train in and compete.

Steven K Hayes the Ninja guy once said "not everyone can be an athlete ,but everyone can learn how to defend themselves".and also people who want to do exercise,have the right to. And then there is the point of just doing what you like to do. Unless you are Hilter reincarnated,leading us to a new world order,who give a f45k if you think all people should quit doing froms and train your way.

[Knifefighter]

I think thing have gotten a little out of hand here. MMA we all know is a great sport and has taught us all some valuable lessons. But let's all get a grip on reality here. All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens,don't want to train in or compete in MMA or full contact. But according to some here they are wasting their time, and should quit doing froms, and fight full contact in the ring hit pads only, do hard contact sparring regularly.

Nobody said they are wasting their time or should stop doing what they are doing. Just don't claim they are fighters or "learning self-defense".

[Knifefighter]

Weapons,vital area strikes,dirty fighting are valuable for the street. How do i know? Cause I have used them,and guess what ,I also do sports Judo and shuai jiao. Train in and compete..

Can someone use "dirty fighting" on the street. Sure, but it won't help them to "train" it because training is worthless without training the delivery system and you can't train the delivery system by "pretending" to use foul tactics.

[lkfmdc]

I have two distinct memories of people trying to do "dirty stuff" to me in BJJ training

In instance, a guy who had just come into the gym tried to gouge my eyes. All I had to do was put him in an arm lock which, in the street, I could have used to "break" his arm

The second time, someone tried a phoenix eye to a pressure point. No, I kid you not. I put him in a triangle and put him to sleep. In the street, his mildly annoying pain would not have stopped me either ... and once he was out cold what do you think I could have done?

[YouKnowWho]

I have been living in china close to 5 years now, and i will tell you almost no kung fu people here fight or spar, unless they are professionals.
I have met many Taiji guys in Calif. The moment that I mentioned the word "application", they all looked at me like I came from another planet. IMO, CMA guys who care about combat are the minority. If we don't allow this minority voice to be heard, people will think CMA will have nothing to do with combat which is not good.

If we take away the combat and only concentrate on the health, performance, and spiritual development then the CMA training will be very boring. We can run for health, dance with stars for performance, and go to church for spiritual development. Of course we can buy a hand gun for combat. Since we may not be able to carry firearm 24/7, some combat skill will still come in handy if needed.

Hope this is not another "just read and move along (no response will be allowed)" type of thread.

[lkfmdc]

TCMA is MARTIAL ARTS. It was always meant for FIGHTING

Anyone who doubts this, please read Kennedy's fine books on training manuals and the Jing Wu. He tells it like it is (and was)

People who just want health can go to aerobics. If they want "cool" fitness with foreign flovor, do yoga or even just Chi Kung

Saying you do kung fu just to be healthy is a giant excuse, and you are missing the entire point really

[Lokhopkuen]

I have two distinct memories of people trying to do "dirty stuff" to me in BJJ training

In instance, a guy who had just come into the gym tried to gouge my eyes. All I had to do was put him in an arm lock which, in the street, I could have used to "break" his arm

The second time, someone tried a phoenix eye to a pressure point. No, I kid you not. I put him in a triangle and put him to sleep. In the street, his mildly annoying pain would not have stopped me either ... and once he was out cold what do you think I could have done?

My vision is clear:
You and Chuck Norris on the same T-Shirt!!
You in front of course.

[Lokhopkuen]

If we take away the combat and only concentrate on the health, performance, and spiritual development then the CMA training will be very boring. We can run for health, dance with stars for performance, and go to church for spiritual development. Of course we can buy a hand gun for combat. Since we may not be able to carry firearm 24/7, some combat skill will still come in handy if needed.

Hope this is not another "just read and move along (no response will be allowed)" type of thread.

A very good point you've made. So we all gather to discuss martial art but in the end it all gets reduced to "my c0ck is the biggest and by the way would you like to see my balls?" the most obnoxious ones want to charge for you to "take the peek" once they have your attention....

[YouKnowWho]

I have been living in china close to 5 years now, and i will tell you almost no kung fu people here fight or spar, unless they are professionals.

I can already see the problem there. Let's take Taiji "双搂(Shuang Lou) - double pulling" as example. In CMC's form, he did with both palms facing downward. When you move your arms to your left, you can do with:

- both palms face down,
- both palms face up,
- left palm face up, right palm face down,
- left palm face down, left palm face up.

Which way will be the right way. Unfortunately there is only 1 right way and all the other 3 ways are wrong.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/27223831de.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

If people donot understand the combat application, the form will be changed beyond recongition 100 years from now. Combat application is the only way that can maintain the integrate of CMA forms for the future generation.

[bawang]

I think thing have gotten a little out of hand here. MMA we all know is a great sport and has taught us all some valuable lessons. But let's all get a grip on reality here. All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens

all these people need to leave kung fu alone and fuk off. go do square dancing or power yoga or nia. kung fu teachers need to stop catering to those people.



I have been living in china close to 5 years now, and i will tell you almost no kung fu people here fight or spar.
the rich people that can afford leisure and hobbies like kugn fu in cities of course they dont spar. espcially ones that like to hang near foreigners.

[wiz cool c]

all these people need to leave kung fu alone and fuk off. go do square dancing or power yoga or nia. kung fu teachers need to stop catering to those people.


the rich people that can afford leisure and hobbies like kugn fu in cities of course they dont spar. espcially ones that like to hang near foreigners.

true what you said about the rich have the time, but only one of the three teachers i have had teach foreigners, the other kung fu teacher has no foreigner
students,and that area has very few foreigners. and the shuai jiao guys i trained with in beijing never had foreigners train with them except me. If you ever get a chance to train in beijing shuai jiao,just ask the teachers if they know a foreigner named hu ke [my chinese name] one of them should remeber me.

And all you guys need to learn how to read. I never said take the fighting out of kung fu,tough guys. But if a house wife that is 40 wants to do martial arts,she can only do full contact mma, and should must compete in full contact comps too. and all the kid that go to martial arts school,only full contact mma from now . really guys grow up.

And I don't care about you guys I love forms. I use them as a form of cardio and since I have been doing hung chuan recently also a part of my resitence training.I think it is working well too,cause two weeks ago i spared with a judo black belt of equal size and about 18 years younger and got the best of him and he was winded. then went straight to a much taller white belt and toosed him around,he was aslo the same age.I will compete in hong kong soon in a judo comp,see how my traditional strenght and wind work does then.

[Dragonzbane76]

And I don't care about you guys I love forms. I use them as a form of cardio and since I have been doing hung chuan recently also a part of my resitence training

that's fine as long as your not promoting them as the "deadly" and comparing them to actual fighting.

[David Jamieson]

I think some of you mma guys are just whining. lol

"just don't call it this or that"

what a load.

People can market what they are selling however they like and who cares what you do or what you think.

If the only way you can attract people to you thing is to put down someone else's thing, then I think it's self evident that you are not putting enough effort and energy into your thing.

not to mention all the bs "99% do this" blanket staement nonsense, or the equally ridiculous "mma is superior".

blowhards is what you are and blowhards are what you are seen as. You have little credibility is the bottom line when it comes down to it. Really, just stick to your own thing.

I find that a guillotine is a good move and It's worked for me twice in bad situations. Does that make me into mma? Because I found it inside the kungfu system I learned.

Is that bad when Kung fu works, Nobody is saying all this stuff you guys are making up except for the forum deluded ones.

I don't care about your sparring and rolling. I'm glad you enjoy it. Please feel free to go and enjoy it. thanks. :rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

"just don't call it this or that"

what a load.

People can market what they are selling however they like and who cares what you do or what you think.

so you believe forms are "the deadly" and harkin to actual fighting in a resistant environment?

and what do i care... well, the fact people promote crap that will get someone killed well, just call it my sentimental side.

As I stated above forms are fine and dandy if you understand they are NOT FIGHTHING.

[Drake]

so you believe forms are "the deadly" and harkin to actual fighting in a resistant environment?

and what do i care... well, the fact people promote crap that will get someone killed well, just call it my sentimental side.

As I stated above forms are fine and dandy if you understand they are NOT FIGHTHING.

In all due fairness, a lot of resisted sparring by anyone without some significant experience typically looks like two monkeys flailing at one another.

[Dragonzbane76]

In all due fairness, a lot of resisted sparring by anyone without some significant experience typically looks like two monkeys flailing at one another.

true, but it's in resistance and not predetermined no set pattern and unexpected results can occur. you can flail like a monkey and eventually after doing it long enough you will learn how to flail and knock someone the Fu ck out.

[David Jamieson]

so you believe forms are "the deadly" and harkin to actual fighting in a resistant environment?

and what do i care... well, the fact people promote crap that will get someone killed well, just call it my sentimental side.

As I stated above forms are fine and dandy if you understand they are NOT FIGHTHING.

you only have your opinion, you don't actually know anything about the deadly or what works and what doesn't outside of your very own personal experience.

So, if you think you're some white knight out there protecting people from bad training, you're the deluded one.

just sayin...

[David Jamieson]

In all due fairness, a lot of resisted sparring by anyone without some significant experience typically looks like two monkeys flailing at one another.

true enough. in fact I would say that in my experience, the greater percentage of people who "spar" in whatever modality aren't that good at it.

But it's the mentality of "great for you for stepping up" that perpetuates this load of mediocrity.

meh, we can't all be elite uber killers now can we? lol

[Dragonzbane76]

So, if you think you're some white knight out there protecting people from bad training, you're the deluded one.

it is my opinion but i'm not the one living in a make-believe world trying to get others to follow me into it as well.



so you believe forms are "the deadly" and harkin to actual fighting in a resistant environment?

skipped answering that. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

the greater percentage of people who "spar" in whatever modality aren't that good at it.

that's because they don't spar enough. To be good at anything you have to do it repeatedly. Everyone looks like a monkey "flailing" the first time.

[David Jamieson]

it is my opinion but i'm not the one living in a make-believe world trying to get others to follow me into it as well.


skipped answering that. ;)

yeah your question about forms I've answered over and over again, so I just left it at that this time figuring you likely already knew my position on what they are.

as for the world we live in, it is entirely make believe! lol
everything is a construct, everything is a shape placed before you.
All is mind.

sorry if that's too deep. :)

[David Jamieson]

that's because they don't spar enough. To be good at anything you have to do it repeatedly. Everyone looks like a monkey "flailing" the first time.

Many people do not go beyond the first time.
Part of the thing is the pop a pill thinking that people hold to even in teh here and now.

many people try something once, aren't good at it and move on.

I would say this happens in most cases as far as lines of study that have merit go.

I mean, even in mma, there's gotta be hundreds of thousands in clubs all over that practice mma, but the cream is a miniscule percentage of that. the same is true of any martial arts, or cooking school, or auto mechanics and so on.

the same is true of any pursuit. It's like there is a percentage of people who actually think they know something without ever putting the effort into learning!

showing is not teaching, seeing is not knowing.

[Dragonzbane76]

yeah your question about forms I've answered over and over again, so I just left it at that this time figuring you likely already knew my position on what they are.

as for the world we live in, it is entirely make believe! lol
everything is a construct, everything is a shape placed before you.
All is mind.

sorry if that's too deep.

not to deep. :p

life is an illusion, we have no control, it wills us towards unknown destinations.

anyways the question is old, its been pounded into the ground, was pulling it out because I'm also tired of the same old argument, it was an answer to your tired answer.

[Lokhopkuen]

Sisyphus:D

[David Jamieson]

Sisyphus:D

the thing about that is that even for him the emotional content changes.

the start again, new beginning, the almost there and the disillusion as he watches the stone roll back down.

Sisyphus is the true allegory of human existence in many ways.

I mean eventually, we all roll our stone and we all mean nothing in a very ultimate sense.

Life is a gift for your immortal being to have physical senses.

It's folly to make it into something that loses that in the go. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Atlas


you ever notice that almost all the greek mythological beings had some form of doing the same thing over and over?

[David Jamieson]

Atlas


you ever notice that almost all the greek mythological beings had some form of doing the same thing over and over?

Fetch wood, carry water. Life is better when you realize that that is essentially what is really involved. :)

there is a lot to be said for adoption of simplicity.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I sure am glad someone started another MMA/TMA thread, since there aren't that many of them on here.:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

In all due fairness, a lot of resisted sparring by anyone without some significant experience typically looks like two monkeys flailing at one another.

Yeah? So? What's your point? That's how you develop to the point of not looking like a flailing monkey.

What's funny is people say this and then, after years of "perfecting their techniques without full contact sparring" because they are afraid of "developing bad habits", they get in and actually fight and can do absolutely nothing (although their forms look awesome). Then, all the other kung fu guys say, "Oh, their kung fu was bad. They weren't real kung fu guys."

The fact is the "not kung fu guys" simply didn't develop application skill because they never spent the time to go through the "looking like monkeys" phase.

[Drake]

Yeah? So? What's your point? That's how you develop to the point of not looking like a flailing monkey.

What's funny is people say this and then, after years of "perfecting their techniques without full contact sparring" because they are afraid of "developing bad habits", they get in and actually fight and can do absolutely nothing (although their forms look awesome). Then, all the other kung fu guys say, "Oh, their kung fu was bad. They weren't real kung fu guys."

The fact is the "not kung fu guys" simply didn't develop application skill because they never spent the time to go through the "looking like monkeys" phase.

But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I've seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.

My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I've seen both sides of the fence.

[Knifefighter]

But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I've seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.

My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I've seen both sides of the fence.

So, have I and I know which method works better.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value

Hence the importance of sparring objectives. If there's an objective, there's intent. If there's intent, there's a drive to manifest that intent effectively. With good sparring objectives and a bit of instruction, the "monkey flailing" gets tried and discarded relatively quickly, making room for more effective techniques with respect to the objective.

[Knifefighter]

Hence the importance of sparring objectives. If there's an objective, there's intent. If there's intent, there's a drive to manifest that intent effectively. With good sparring objectives and a bit of instruction, the "monkey flailing" gets tried and discarded relatively quickly, making room for more effective techniques with respect to the objective.

There ya go!

[Frost]

But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I've seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.

My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I've seen both sides of the fence.

but if someone does years of training, doing forms applications etc and it turns turn out to be useless once you start sparring and you STILL look like a flailing monkey why bother with all that stuff, why not get the flailing out of the way first get used to pressure and go from there. Why moan about it creating bad habbits when everyone looks like that be it a first time boxer or a 4 year old form student? if all that correct form training goes out the window when contact is made is it useful?

and people in kick boxing and boxing classes may look bad when they first spar but they still look like they train and how the seniors spar, the same cant be said of any sparring clips put up by traditional schools, at least none i have seen

[m1k3]

All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens,don't want to train in or compete in MMA or full contact. But according to some here they are wasting their time, and should quit doing froms, and fight full contact in the ring hit pads only, do hard contact sparring regularly.



Steven K Hayes the Ninja guy once said "not everyone can be an athlete ,but everyone can learn how to defend themselves".and also people who want to do exercise,have the right to. And then there is the point of just doing what you like to do. Unless you are Hilter reincarnated,leading us to a new world order,who give a f45k if you think all people should quit doing froms and train your way.

I want to respond to 2 parts of your post. 1st you don't know anything about MMA gyms. I am a 56 year old hobbyist who trains BJJ at an MMA gym. You train at the level you can do and you don't have to compete. That doesn't mean you can't train realistically against a resisting partner. The school I train at has everyone from hobbyists like myself to pros who compete in MT and MMA. (See my sig for info about my school)

The 2nd part is everyone can be an athlete. Being an athlete doesn't mean its a full time job or you are a high level competitor. It just means you get out there and train and push yourself.

I don't know why so many of you TCMA guys have so much anger. I never see that at the MMA gym. :D

[MightyB]

but if someone does years of training, doing forms applications etc and it turns turn out to be useless once you start sparring and you STILL look like a flailing monkey why bother with all that stuff, why not get the flailing out of the way first get used to pressure and go from there. Why moan about it creating bad habbits when everyone looks like that be it a first time boxer or a 4 year old form student? if all that correct form training goes out the window when contact is made is it useful?

and people in kick boxing and boxing classes may look bad when they first spar but they still look like they train and how the seniors spar, the same cant be said of any sparring clips put up by traditional schools, at least none i have seen

You sir speaketh the truth and I salute you.

[MightyB]

There's pragmatism in training Judo, Shuai Jiao, Jiu Jitsu, MMA, Thai, boxing, San Da, or wrestling and not being a fighter yourself.

It's simply this: You have the benefit of their (instructors and fellow club members) direct combat experience... strike and change that last sentence... their verified and proven combat experience. You get that even if you yourself aren't a fighter. This isn't pretend stuff passed down from a dead guy that may or may not even have existed... this is stuff from a living breathing experienced individual.

And - it doesn't have to be in conflict with what you've already learned in TCMA. This isn't a this or that scenario - you can do both. There's a lot of value in TCMA - most of it's been obscured by years of neglect - it's there, we just have to admit that sometimes the best way to find something is by attacking it from another angle. I find that by training sport, my traditional gets better. I'm not unique. A lot of people on this very forum have found the same thing. There will come a point when we may all want to develop into the deeper more profound aspects of the arts. At that time you may say that was the point of MA the whole time so why did we waste our time with that silly sport fighting stuff. Then we'd kick your @rse while begrudgingly admitting that you may have had a point.

[YouKnowWho]

This isn't a this or that scenario - you can do both.

Some TCMA training method can be used in MMA training too.

http://johnswang.com/sc15.wmv
http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

[wiz cool c]

I'm not against MMA,if any of you guys read Kung Fu Tai Chi two issues ago I wrote an article on Shuai Jiao and MMA connection in china. My last coach here is a pro MMA fighter with a Shuai Jiao background. But it has become a fad with every Tom, **** and Harry jumping on the bandwagon.

Kung fu is a great art,sport and self defence system, Yes it has its short falls and does need to make some changes to be the most it can be. But One does not need to abandone all one's traditional training methods and take up MMA,to please a few knuckle heads. I am living proff of this, i am doing judo in southern china now at 40 and kick 20 year olds asses on a regular. All my strenght and stamina training is traditional forms,standing,rings,and other training methods, and these guys are getting winded when i'm fresh. Next month I got a comp,see how it goes. I will do some taping as well.

[bawang]

YOU wrote magazine articles? did they pay you? how can i get gene ching to pay me for writing articles? i can write all day man
pls gene ching i need monies

[gunbeatskroty]

I'm not against MMA,if any of you guys read Kung Fu Tai Chi two issues ago I wrote an article on Shuai Jiao and MMA connection in china. My last coach here is a pro MMA fighter with a Shuai Jiao background. But it has become a fad with every Tom, **** and Harry jumping on the bandwagon.

The same can be said about KF in the 70's and early 80's after Enter the Dragon became a hit and everyone jumped on the Bruce Lee KF bandwagon. Then it was TKD and their McDojos in the late 80's to early 90's.

Now it's MMA, but with the significance being, the Gracies put their money where their mouths were and pompously challenged the world of MA and allowed everything in their fights, including biting, eye gouging, nut strikes, pressure points, etc. Then UFC 1-4 was pretty eye opening and IMO, revolutionized MA.

People can train in MA for w/e reasons they want. Personally for me, I want train for fitness & competition. I want to test my skills in an all out battle. I like to spar hard. I don't care to learn about the Asian culture nor learning fancy Asian words for a hip throw, or w/e...especially when I'm paying $150/month tuition in a 1 year contract. English is my primary language. Just call it a hip throw and teach me something else. I'm already Asian and don't want to learn Japanese, Chinese, Thai, w/e. I'm none of these Asians, and I don't have an Asian fetish like some non-Asians do. That's one of the reasons I left this one Traditional Jiu-Jitsu school... these Whiteguys kept insisting that I learn the freaking Japanese term for each technique. It's **** hard.

I like MMA b/c there's less fluff. We warm up, we learn drill techniques and then we spar. 90 minutes w/very little rest. Then there are fights and competitions just about every 2 months to test what really works.

[San Soo Sifu]

Now it's MMA, but with the significance being, the Gracies put their money where their mouths were and pompously challenged the world of MA and allowed everything in their fights, including biting, eye gouging, nut strikes, pressure points, etc.

Not true at all. The facts are...

1. Eye gouging was/is NEVER allowed.
2. Biting was/is NEVER allowed.
3. (No fish hooking became a by-product of no biting, i.e. don't stick your fingers in my mouth if I cannot bite them off.)
4. Groin strikes were NOT allowed in UFC 1; but then they were allowed starting in UFC 2. Watch Keith Hackney pound the groin of Joe Son in UFC 4. Athletic supporters with banana cups were allowed to be worn. Groin strikes were/are NOT allowed again from UFC 14 to the present.

Sources:
1. My excellent memory (and when my memory fails me)...
2. Google, and...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship

I notice your screen name is gunbeatskroty (Gun Beats Karate).
If we were to be intellectually honest, then...

Gun Beats Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)
Gun Beats Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ)
Gun Beats Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ)

P.S. I live in a "shall issue" state for law abiding citizens; and I'm a law abiding citizen.

[SoCo KungFu]

Not true at all. The facts are...

1. Eye gouging was/is NEVER allowed.
2. Biting was/is NEVER allowed.
3. (No fish hooking became a by-product of no biting, i.e. don't stick your fingers in my mouth if I cannot bite them off.)
4. Groin strikes were NOT allowed in UFC 1; but then they were allowed starting in UFC 2. Watch Keith Hackney pound the groin of Joe Son in UFC 4. Athletic supporters with banana cups were allowed to be worn. Groin strikes were/are NOT allowed again from UFC 14 to the present.

Sources:
1. My excellent memory (and when my memory fails me)...
2. Google, and...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship

Your "facts" suck. Gracies were doing challenge fights long before coming into UFC.

[gunbeatskroty]

Not true at all. The facts are...

1. Eye gouging was/is NEVER allowed.
2. Biting was/is NEVER allowed.
3. (No fish hooking became a by-product of no biting, i.e. don't stick your fingers in my mouth if I cannot bite them off.)
4. Groin strikes were NOT allowed in UFC 1; but then they were allowed starting in UFC 2. Watch Keith Hackney pound the groin of Joe Son in UFC 4. Athletic supporters with banana cups were allowed to be worn. Groin strikes were/are NOT allowed again from UFC 14 to the present.

Sources:
1. My excellent memory (and when my memory fails me)...
2. Google, and...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship


You clearly MISREAD what I wrote.

I am referring to the Gracie's challenges with no rules and not the UFC. The Gracies' challenge allowed all of the above. Some fights were fought behind closed doors with video for proof. Jason Delucia (Kung Fu) fought in one and it's on YouTube. He tried to eyegouge Royce Gracie, which is why Gracie didn't choke him out when he clearly had that RNC...and just wanted to beat on him from the mount.

[gunbeatskroty]

Not true at all. The facts are...

1. Eye gouging was/is NEVER allowed.
2. Biting was/is NEVER allowed.
3. (No fish hooking became a by-product of no biting, i.e. don't stick your fingers in my mouth if I cannot bite them off.)
4. Groin strikes were NOT allowed in UFC 1; but then they were allowed starting in UFC 2. Watch Keith Hackney pound the groin of Joe Son in UFC 4. Athletic supporters with banana cups were allowed to be worn. Groin strikes were/are NOT allowed again from UFC 14 to the present.


Also, for UFC 1-4, eye gouging, biting, fish hooking & groin strikes did not disqualify a fighter nor ended the fight. The fighter gets FINED $1,000 for each infraction and could actually still win the fight but may end up with less or no prize money.

They received a certain amount for fighting, more for winning each fight and about $65,000 for winning the finals.

[lkfmdc]

LMFAO at anyone who thinks the Gracies didn't fight absolutely NO RULES

Renzo put out publicly a tape where his brother bites a guy's ear completely off. In fact, he put out a pile of footage with absolutely no rules

[San Soo Sifu]

Well, everyone can debate what the Gracie family did, or did not do, in Brazil. If you want to make bold statements about what any of the Gracie family members did do; whether it be in America or Brazil, please provide URL link or YouTube link for the rest of us to watch. Watching someone's ear getting bitten off should provide hours of family-fun entertainment. As well as Jason Delucia getting beat on (other than in UFC 2) for an attempted eye gouge, behind a closed door challenge match. I will be sure to pop the popcorn, and grab a cold one (or two).

The quote I highlighted (and was responding to) said "MMA" not "NHB" nor "underground, unsanctioned, pit fighting."


Now it's MMA, but with the significance being, the Gracies put their money where their mouths were and pompously challenged the world of MA and allowed everything in their fights, including biting, eye gouging, nut strikes, pressure points, etc.

A very subtle; yet highly important, distinction. Therefore, my facts stand as outlined.

[Frost]

Well, everyone can debate what the Gracie family did, or did not do, in Brazil. If you want to make bold statements about what any of the Gracie family members did do; whether it be in America or Brazil, please provide URL link or YouTube link for the rest of us to watch. Watching someone's ear getting bitten off should provide hours of family-fun entertainment. As well as Jason Delucia getting beat on (other than in UFC 2) for an attempted eye gouge, behind a closed door challenge match. I will be sure to pop the popcorn, and grab a cold one (or two).

The quote I highlighted (and was responding to) said "MMA" not "NHB" nor "underground, unsanctioned, pit fighting."

A very subtle; yet highly important, distinction. Therefore, my facts stand as outlined.

actually the quote you responded to was
the Gracies put their money where their mouths were and pompously challenged the world of MA and allowed everything in their fights, including biting, eye gouging, nut strikes, pressure points, etc

Which is true, all you have to do is read their public challanges in their old magazines or watch any of their challange matches :)

[gunbeatskroty]

Well, everyone can debate what the Gracie family did, or did not do, in Brazil. If you want to make bold statements about what any of the Gracie family members did do; whether it be in America or Brazil, please provide URL link or YouTube link for the rest of us to watch. Watching someone's ear getting bitten off should provide hours of family-fun entertainment. As well as Jason Delucia getting beat on (other than in UFC 2) for an attempted eye gouge, behind a closed door challenge match. I will be sure to pop the popcorn, and grab a cold one (or two).

Here are 2 videos where, interestingly enough, it was two Kung-Fu fighters that tried to eye gouge. Which explains why the one grappler made sure he popped the KF's elbow in a loud, painful crack (instead of giving him time to tap). And how Gracie decides to punch out DeLucia instead of choking him out (as punishment for using anti-rape tactics). I mean, c'mon....if you're trying to represent Kung-Fu as some sort of master and you end up eye gouging like some screaming lady being groped in a parking lot after a long day of shopping....what does that say? Where's the honor in fighting? It's not like Gracie's going to kill him or rape him. Does anyone even need to pay money to train how to eye gouge, bite or squeeze nuts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIn3nQbobtE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4

And if you're going to complain about the video quality, then I can't help you with that b/c this was in the late 80's where a giant VHS consumer (not pro) quality camcorder cost like $2,000 and they're not exactly rich in Brazil neither.


The quote I highlighted (and was responding to) said "MMA" not "NHB" nor "underground, unsanctioned, pit fighting."

A very subtle; yet highly important, distinction. Therefore, my facts stand as outlined.

Your facts are completely FALSE because you've quoted the rules for the EARLY UFC's that you've found on Wikipedia and now trying to tell us that this is somehow also the rules imposed on the Gracies in BRAZIL? How the heck is this even logical?

It is a fact that the Gracie's issued this challenge to all styles of Martial Artists and many answered the call. The good news is, many of these martial artists didn't resort to biting, eye gouging, nut squeezing, etc... they fought and lost with HONOR & DIGNITY. Who the hell wants to be caught on video as that guy who grabbed for some dude's nutsack in a fight? What student would stay with you if you've done that. If you can only win fights by using lady's anti-rape techniques, then why bother training any martial arts at all? Just go to Jenny Craig's anti-rape seminars where you can yell "NO" while kicking some padded up dude in his nuts all day.

[wiz cool c]

The same can be said about KF in the 70's and early 80's after Enter the Dragon became a hit and everyone jumped on the Bruce Lee KF bandwagon. Then it was TKD and their McDojos in the late 80's to early 90's.

Now it's MMA, but with the significance being, the Gracies put their money where their mouths were and pompously challenged the world of MA and allowed everything in their fights, including biting, eye gouging, nut strikes, pressure points, etc. Then UFC 1-4 was pretty eye opening and IMO, revolutionized MA.

People can train in MA for w/e reasons they want. Personally for me, I want train for fitness & competition. I want to test my skills in an all out battle. I like to spar hard. I don't care to learn about the Asian culture nor learning fancy Asian words for a hip throw, or w/e...especially when I'm paying $150/month tuition in a 1 year contract. English is my primary language. Just call it a hip throw and teach me something else. I'm already Asian and don't want to learn Japanese, Chinese, Thai, w/e. I'm none of these Asians, and I don't have an Asian fetish like some non-Asians do. That's one of the reasons I left this one Traditional Jiu-Jitsu school... these Whiteguys kept insisting that I learn the freaking Japanese term for each technique. It's **** hard.

I like MMA b/c there's less fluff. We warm up, we learn drill techniques and then we spar. 90 minutes w/very little rest. Then there are fights and competitions just about every 2 months to test what really works.

if all this is true why are you here on a kf magazine forum

[gunbeatskroty]

if all this is true why are you here on a kf magazine forum

I came here initially to get advice on weapons training.

But notice how I'm posting my main preference being MMA on the MMA section and not the KF specific section.

And I'm responding directly towards your comment about MMA being a fad with the argument that the same can be said about Kung Fu during the Bruce Lee years. Is there a problem with this?

[monji112000]

Not true at all. The facts are...

1. Eye gouging was/is NEVER allowed.
2. Biting was/is NEVER allowed.
3. (No fish hooking became a by-product of no biting, i.e. don't stick your fingers in my mouth if I cannot bite them off.)
4. Groin strikes were NOT allowed in UFC 1; but then they were allowed starting in UFC 2. Watch Keith Hackney pound the groin of Joe Son in UFC 4. Athletic supporters with banana cups were allowed to be worn. Groin strikes were/are NOT allowed again from UFC 14 to the present.

Sources:
1. My excellent memory (and when my memory fails me)...
2. Google, and...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship


If you go back and watch the original UFC matches there were stuff going on that was not allowed. I remember a frank abbot fight were he fish hooked and blood was going everywhere. The fact remains that you can do all the "dirty" tactics, no problem.. but if I'm in control of the fight, and I can also do the same tactics who do you think is going to win?? Great try and poke me in the eye when you can't move. The Gracies were known for using any means necessary when taking on "special" challengers. Everyone likes to talk S*** about the Gracies but they stepped up.

[wiz cool c]

I came here initially to get advice on weapons training.

But notice how I'm posting my main preference being MMA on the MMA section and not the KF specific section.

And I'm responding directly towards your comment about MMA being a fad with the argument that the same can be said about Kung Fu during the Bruce Lee years. Is there a problem with this?

MMA is cool if you like it ,like i said before my last shuai jiao coach is a pro MMA fighter. What is getting silly are the people here on a kung fu message forum saying all esle is a waste of time. And that is what is making it the flavor of the week club.To come on a kung fu forum and say kung fu is a waste of time a little bit foolish don't you think. if you are so hardcore just go to sherdog.

[monji112000]

MMA is cool if you like it ,like i said before my last shuai jiao coach is a pro MMA fighter. What is getting silly are the people here on a kung fu message forum saying all esle is a waste of time. And that is what is making it the flavor of the week club.To come on a kung fu forum and say kung fu is a waste of time a little bit foolish don't you think. if you are so hardcore just go to sherdog.

everyone is a pro fighter now adays. Hell I could be a pro fighter.. when amateur MMA is none-existent then its easy.. all you got to do is sign up.

[gunbeatskroty]

MMA is cool if you like it ,like i said before my last shuai jiao coach is a pro MMA fighter. What is getting silly are the people here on a kung fu message forum saying all esle is a waste of time. And that is what is making it the flavor of the week club.To come on a kung fu forum and say kung fu is a waste of time a little bit foolish don't you think. if you are so hardcore just go to sherdog.

No, you made a comment about how MMA is the current fad. I am responding directly to your comment. Don't try to change the subject.

[gunbeatskroty]

everyone is a pro fighter now adays. Hell I could be a pro fighter.. when amateur MMA is none-existent then its easy.. all you got to do is sign up.

Yea, no kidding. I was coached by Mr. Perfect, Ernesto Hoost.....a world renown kickboxing champion & legend. Sparred with him too. Of course, I paid the $85 for those seminars...but yea, I can technically say that he coached me for about 90 seconds 1 on 1.

There's a bunch of pro fighters at our gym that I spar with. Now I can say on my resume...."Sparring partner for pros, including Ernesto Hoost". One of our MT instructors is a pro fighter, so I guess I'm being coached by a pro MMA fighter as well, yay.

[wiz cool c]

No, you made a comment about how MMA is the current fad. I am responding directly to your comment. Don't try to change the subject.

ok tough guy

[gunbeatskroty]

ok tough guy

Why are you getting so defensive. You say you write for a magazine, then shouldn't you be able to support your assertions?

If indeed that you write for MA mags, then I find it very irresponsible for you to call MMA a fad when it's been around for OVER 17 years now ever since UFC ONE. And has continued to grow and dominating the MA world with no signs of fading out.

Kung Fu was never this big, despite the millions of Run Run Shaw KF movies of the 70's & 80's. If you want to talk about fads, consider what Enter the Dragon and Bruce Lee did for Kung-Fu. A spectacular movie and a spectacular movie star (yet questionable fighter) who sought to specifically bring KF into the White mainstream. And Bruce Lee was certainly successful at doing so. What movies does MMA have? All MMA movies sucks. There's no MMA movie star. If anything, the popularity of MMA all came about through pure merit in the octagon vs. KF being greatly helped by Hollywood and the ongoing, everlasting....never ending KF movies coming out of Hong Kong.

[Syn7]

I think thing have gotten a little out of hand here. MMA we all know is a great sport and has taught us all some valuable lessons. But let's all get a grip on reality here. All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens,don't want to train in or compete in MMA or full contact. But according to some here they are wasting their time, and should quit doing froms, and fight full contact in the ring hit pads only, do hard contact sparring regularly.

First off all the people who train in martial arts for health and fitness,should what quit doing what they are doing and fight full contact? All the old ladys in the park doing tai Chi shuold stop wasting their time and get on the mat. Put on some 12 oz gloves and do hard contact. And all the 9 year olds doing kata, should stop that **** and have some mma bouts,their parents will be so proud.

I have been living in china close to 5 years now, and i will tell you almost no kung fu people here fight or spar, unless they are professionals. They don't have the time or need for it here. there are very few violent crimes here and people aren't physically aggressive here. Ok but america is a different story, there is crime and people do fight. So what to do.

What about people who want to learn self defence? Well not only people from 20 to 35 who are top notch athletes want to be able to protect themselfs from a violent criminal. So what then? Well all martial artist should do some sparring, in my opinion at least. to what level of intesity is up for debate. So what to do then.Well one they can get in the best shape possible for their age and body types. Do some contact training and learn those useless techniques people keep talking about. Weapons,vital area strikes,dirty fighting are valuable for the street. How do i know? Cause I have used them,and guess what ,I also do sports Judo and shuai jiao. Train in and compete.

Steven K Hayes the Ninja guy once said "not everyone can be an athlete ,but everyone can learn how to defend themselves".and also people who want to do exercise,have the right to. And then there is the point of just doing what you like to do. Unless you are Hilter reincarnated,leading us to a new world order,who give a f45k if you think all people should quit doing froms and train your way.

its ok to do flowery forms for health... just dont commit fraud by calling it effective self defence... if somebody is really serious about self defence they have to spar, they have to hit pads.... if all they want is a nice physique and good lungs, then yeah, rock on witcha bad selves, do all the flowery bullsh!t you want...

[Syn7]

Kung Fu was never this big, despite the millions of Run Run Shaw KF movies of the 70's & 80's. If you want to talk about fads, consider what Enter the Dragon and Bruce Lee did for Kung-Fu. A spectacular movie and a spectacular movie star (yet questionable fighter) who sought to specifically bring KF into the White mainstream. And Bruce Lee was certainly successful at doing so. What movies does MMA have? All MMA movies sucks. There's no MMA movie star. If anything, the popularity of MMA all came about through pure merit in the octagon vs. KF being greatly helped by Hollywood and the ongoing, everlasting....never ending KF movies coming out of Hong Kong.

can i get a witness!!!!!!!!!!!!!

truth hurts...