View Full Version : the wing chun body
what does this mean to the WCners out there?
in order to move dynamically, adapt, issue and receive force without hard resistance, staying balanced...
hard bow and soft bow?
how is it conditioned? how is it developed?
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 07:52 AM
The "WCK body" or body structure is a learned skill. The easiest way to learn any skill is to have someone with that skill teach you HOW TO DO IT. Then you develop that skill, get better at it, by DOING IT.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 08:50 AM
The "WCK body" or body structure is a learned skill. The easiest way to learn any skill is to have someone with that skill teach you HOW TO DO IT. Then you develop that skill, get better at it, by DOING IT.
T, I think Theo is asking how different WCK peple apply this learnt skill for example which alignment and biomechanics are involved in the WCK body methods. Perhaps you can share your method of WCK body usage instead of pulling a Henrik.
my body methods is very similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePHdXgpAdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_lsIPgMcE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWJQzrbKf4&feature=channel
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 09:04 AM
T, I think Theo is asking how different WCK peple apply this learnt skill for example which alignment and biomechanics are involved in the WCK body methods. Perhaps you can share your method of WCK body usage.
my body methods is very similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePHdXgpAdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_lsIPgMcE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWJQzrbKf4&feature=channel
Sorry, but I think that much of what that guy says is theoretical bullsh1t. He is, in my view, a great example of what is wrong with WCK.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 09:10 AM
Sorry, but I think that much of what that guy says is theoretical bullsh1t. He is, in my view, a great example of what is wrong with WCK.
Okay everyone is entitled to their opinion, Perhaps you can share your method of WCK body usage instead of pulling a Henrik:)
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 09:35 AM
Okay everyone is entitled to their opinion, Perhaps you can share your method of WCK body usage instead of pulling a Henrik:)
It's not "my method" but WCK's method.
What is WCK body structure for?
To be able to push, pull, twist, sink, rise, wedge, strike, etc. the opponent so that we can break his structure and keep it broken all the while thumping him, AND to be able to "resist" being pushed, pulled, twisted, sunk, uprooted, wedged, struck, etc. by our opponent so that I can maintain my body structure intact.
How do I use my body? To do that.
How do you learn and develop that? By doing it.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 09:51 AM
It's not "my method" but WCK's method.
What is WCK body structure for?
To be able to push, pull, twist, sink, rise, wedge, strike, etc. the opponent so that we can break his structure and keep it broken all the while thumping him, AND to be able to "resist" being pushed, pulled, twisted, sunk, uprooted, wedged, struck, etc. by our opponent so that I can maintain my body structure intact.
How do I use my body? To do that.
How do you learn and develop that? By doing it.
understood!
How do you use our waist/lower back/core area in wck?
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 09:59 AM
understood!
How do you use our waist/lower back/core area in wck?
If you understood, then you'd know the answer to your own question.
No one can tell you these things. It is not knowledge or understanding gotten from someone else. It is a skill. And the skill you learn by doing.
WCK's method is to control while striking the opponent. The method is the key to the puzzle, to putting the pieces together, it provides the context.
To control him, we need to get to the inside (you can't control from a distance) and push, pull, twist, sink, rise, wedge, strike, etc. the opponent so that we can break his structure and keep it broken. This uses the WCK toolbox, including body leverage, the movement/actions (tan, bong, fook, etc.) and the tactics (mun, jou, tun, tao, etc.). You need to also be able to strike him while doing this.
The other side of the coin is that you don't want your opponent to be able to control you, so your body needs to be able to "resist" being pushed, pulled, twisted, sunk, uprooted, wedged, struck, etc. by our opponent.
How does your waist/lower back fit into this? It depends. But the only way to KNOW is by DOING it.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 10:08 AM
To control him, we need to get to the inside (you can't control from a distance) and push, pull, twist, sink, rise, wedge, strike, etc. the opponent so that we can break his structure and keep it broken. This uses the WCK toolbox, including body leverage, the movement/actions (tan, bong, fook, etc.) and the tactics (mun, jou, tun, tao, etc.). You need to also be able to strike him while doing this.
The other side of the coin is that you don't want your opponent to be able to control you, so your body needs to be able to "resist" being pushed, pulled, twisted, sunk, uprooted, wedged, struck, etc. by our opponent.
How does your body mechanics to control and strike different from what Alan Orr in discribing in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8
What's the advance way that Robert Chu taught you to use your hip/waist area?
chusauli
10-19-2010, 10:08 AM
If you understood, then you'd know the answer to your own question.
No one can tell you these things. It is not knowledge or understanding gotten from someone else. It is a skill. And the skill you learn by doing.
WCK's method is to control while striking the opponent. The method is the key to the puzzle, to putting the pieces together, it provides the context.
To control him, we need to get to the inside (you can't control from a distance) and push, pull, twist, sink, rise, wedge, strike, etc. the opponent so that we can break his structure and keep it broken. This uses the WCK toolbox, including body leverage, the movement/actions (tan, bong, fook, etc.) and the tactics (mun, jou, tun, tao, etc.). You need to also be able to strike him while doing this.
The other side of the coin is that you don't want your opponent to be able to control you, so your body needs to be able to "resist" being pushed, pulled, twisted, sunk, uprooted, wedged, struck, etc. by our opponent.
How does your waist/lower back fit into this? It depends. But the only way to KNOW is by DOING it.
From what I see T saying, its very clear.
Having skill is being able to use that in the moment.
The idea of the waist is to get under the opponent and displace him, setting up for all kinds of strikes, off balancing, and striking with the flow, and to stop your flow. Battle shifts very quickly, so it can't be done slowly - once you have the understanding, it has to be put under pressure testing.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 10:12 AM
From what I see T saying, its very clear.
Having skill is being able to use that in the moment.
The idea of the waist is to get under the opponent and displace him, setting up for all kinds of strikes, off balancing, and striking with the flow, and to stop your flow. Battle shifts very quickly, so it can't be done slowly - once you have the understanding, it has to be put under pressure testing.
So the WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to the way it's used in greco roman wrestling?
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 10:17 AM
So the WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to the way it's used in greco roman wrestling?
Your questions are pointless -- it is like asking: how does a surfer use his waist? The answer is: he does what he needs to do to stay on the board. How does a WCK fighter use his waist? He does what he needs to do to control the opponent while striking him. You find out what this is by doing it. Not by talking about it or theorizing about it. It cannot be described because it is dynamic, constantly adjusting to the moment.
chusauli
10-19-2010, 10:19 AM
So the WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to the way it's used in greco roman wrestling?
If you know WCK, why do you ask me for verification?
Do you think WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to greco-roman wrestling?
Then mathematically you think:
WCK = Greco-roman wrestling?
I've only studied a few throws from greco-roman, but nothing serious...so how can I answer that?
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 10:26 AM
If you know WCK, why do you ask me for verification?
Do you think WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to greco-roman wrestling?
Then mathematically you think:
WCK = Greco-roman wrestling?
I am just trying to get an understanding for how you guys generate your wck body structure.
in Greco, they also try to get their hips underneath the opponent's center to uproot him
I used Greco hip mechanics as a comparrission, but i know you use wck tools and concepts, instead of wrestling.
chusauli
10-19-2010, 10:33 AM
I am just trying to get an understanding for how you guys generate your wck body structure.
in Greco, they also try to get their hips underneath the opponent's center to uproot him
I used Greco hip mechanics as a comparrission, but i know you use wck tools and concepts, instead of wrestling.
If you want to learn how we generate our WCK body structure, come and learn. We welcome sincere, educated people, but teaching you on a forum is ridiculous. This is not a proper medium to teach you properly.
Are we doing suplexes in WCK?
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 10:39 AM
If you want to learn how we generate our WCK body structure, come and learn. We welcome sincere, educated people, but teaching you on a forum is ridiculous. This is not a proper medium to teach you properly.
Are we doing suplexes in WCK?
I am not asking for you to teach it on a forum, I am just trying to get an idea of how you guys do it in your advance level, since the body structure/mechanics on Alan Orr's Dvd's are just a beginner level.
is your advance level of body structure covered on your masterclass wing chun DVD's?
chusauli
10-19-2010, 10:43 AM
I am not asking for you to teach it on a forum, I am just trying to get an idea of how you guys do it in your advance level, since the body structure/mechanics on Alan Orr's Dvd's are just a beginner level.
is your advance level of body structure covered on your masterclass wing chun DVD's?
T's surfer analogy is a very good one.
Attachment to labels of "advanced" and "basic" can be a problem.
You wanna know a secret?
"Advanced" is nothing but "basics" applied.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 10:55 AM
T's surfer analogy is a very good one.
Attachment to labels of "advanced" and "basic" can be a problem.
You wanna know a secret?
"Advanced" is nothing but "basics" applied.
The body structure/ hip mechanics that Alan demo's on this clip is ming jin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8
What i am trying to find out more about is your body structure/mechanics that's involved in An Jing - hiding the power?
is the body structure/mechanics the same in both ming jing and an jing, just done subtler in an jing like at 2:10 into this clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related
chusauli
10-19-2010, 11:01 AM
KFF,
What is Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua Jing?
You can answer your own question.
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 11:03 AM
I am not asking for you to teach it on a forum, I am just trying to get an idea of how you guys do it in your advance level, since the body structure/mechanics on Alan Orr's Dvd's are just a beginner level.
is your advance level of body structure covered on your masterclass wing chun DVD's?
You are not going to "get the idea" except by DOING it yourself. (I keep saying that but you're not getting the idea!).
You are confused -- when you say "how you guys do it" shows this confusion. No one can show you how to use your waist to stay on a surfboard; it is not something you get (not even the "idea") from anyone else. You can't see it nor can it be explained (much of it is not conscious anyway). You can only experience it yourself by DOING it -- by surfing. The surfing itself teaches you, perhaps even unconsciously, how to use your waist.
What Robert and Alan show is the stuff to get YOU started (started doing it).
t_niehoff
10-19-2010, 11:04 AM
KFF,
What is Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua Jing?
You can answer your own question.
Hey, I'll answer the question: they are all bullsh1t.
kung fu fighter
10-19-2010, 11:05 AM
KFF,
What is Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua Jing?
You can answer your own question.
Ming Jing - a level of obvious power... it is just a beginner's level.
An Jing - hiding the power.
Hua Jing - Changing/neutralization power
is An Jing covered in the last clip i posted above? or on your masterclass wc DVD's?
is An Jing just a refined version of ming jing in your body structure method?
chusauli
10-19-2010, 11:09 AM
Hey, I'll answer the question: they are all bullsh1t.
Terence, in a way, is absolutely correct. :) Its all BS - with artificial labels given to movement in a moment in time. But real movement is oneness.
A lotta hot air given to describe what is fundamentally alive and moving and changing.
jesper
10-19-2010, 12:25 PM
T's surfer analogy is a very good one.
Attachment to labels of "advanced" and "basic" can be a problem.
You wanna know a secret?
"Advanced" is nothing but "basics" applied.
Actually the more "advanced" you become the more you seem to get back to basic :)
anerlich
10-19-2010, 02:06 PM
So the WCK hip waist area is used almost identical to the way it's used in greco roman wrestling?
There's probably some commonality. I think though if you asked most wrestlers how their structure worked, they'd say to you much the same things T and Robert are saying now.
Are we doing suplexes in WCK?
If we're doing "bil gee guillotines", why not a "chum kil suplex"? :cool:
T's surfer analogy is a very good one.
Bah. More uninformed drivel from theoretical non-surfers. :D
Hendrik
10-19-2010, 06:39 PM
what does this mean to the WCners out there?
in order to move dynamically, adapt, issue and receive force without hard resistance, staying balanced...
hard bow and soft bow?
how is it conditioned? how is it developed?
IMHO,
the very basic of a development is a reference for one to follow.
Thus, one needs to know, to feel, to experience that reference as the first step.
In the ancient TCMA, This is the initiation. As we know the sifu's job is to Open the Horse for one. That Open Horse or Hoi Ma is an initiation.
For me in Yik Kam lineage, the initiation is the equal shoulder stance. The attainment is "levitation" in today's term mean one needs to have an experience on the following:
A, the body's every joints/muscle/sinews loosen up or Opening the energy medirians of spine, joints....etc. open up the whole body's blood flow from top to fingers and toes.
b, The breathing become nature and effortless.
c, The mind could enter the alpha state if one place a brain wave monitor to check. or enter into silence.
And it is only with the experience of the above one be able to proceed on to practice the SLT. This is because after the experience one has a reference.
Only after one has this "levitate" experience which is the A,b,and C happen in the same time, that one could know what is balance means and the six directional force....etc. it is not an intellecturized concept or intentional intent, it is simply to experience the nature phenomenon of the body without the interupt of the mind.
"levitate" is not grounding as what in general means, in general doing grounding in YJKYM is either causing tension on their knees and feet. the lower their stance the more tense their knees and the more they need to tense up their feets to balance the stance. the more they pushforward with a forward intention, the more they have to compensate backward. "levitate" simple means true neutra.
The tensing up the knees and horse and standing there as one could see in the Kung Fu movie is called Dead post where it is great to develop muscle power..etc. While "levitate" is called Live post it is target for six directional force and dynamic structure. These are two different type of cultivation and phenomenon.
Dead post is also called hard bow. and Live post is called soft bow.
Hendrik
10-19-2010, 06:56 PM
Ming Jing - a level of obvious power... it is just a beginner's level.
An Jing - hiding the power.
Hua Jing - Changing/neutralization power
is An Jing covered in the last clip i posted above? or on your masterclass wc DVD's?
is An Jing just a refined version of ming jing in your body structure method?
Isnt it a suffering keep repeating these questions and not sure what is what?
There is no progress to be stucked in this state. and it is not worthed to get stuck this way.
Get a sifu to coach you and end your suffering.
GlennR
10-19-2010, 07:06 PM
God........ now youre levitating......
IMHO,
the very basic of a development is a reference for one to follow.
Thus, one needs to know, to feel, to experience that reference as the first step.
In the ancient TCMA, This is the initiation. As we know the sifu's job is to Open the Horse for one. That Open Horse or Hoi Ma is an initiation.
For me in Yik Kam lineage, the initiation is the equal shoulder stance. The attainment is "levitation" in today's term mean one needs to have an experience on the following:
A, the body's every joints/muscle/sinews loosen up or Opening the energy medirians of spine, joints....etc. open up the whole body's blood flow from top to fingers and toes.
b, The breathing become nature and effortless.
c, The mind could enter the alpha state if one place a brain wave monitor to check. or enter into silence.
And it is only with the experience of the above one be able to proceed on to practice the SLT. This is because after the experience one has a reference.
Only after one has this "levitate" experience which is the A,b,and C happen in the same time, that one could know what is balance means and the six directional force....etc. it is not an intellecturized concept or intentional intent, it is simply to experience the nature phenomenon of the body without the interupt of the mind.
"levitate" is not grounding as what in general means, in general doing grounding in YJKYM is either causing tension on their knees and feet. the lower their stance the more tense their knees and the more they need to tense up their feets to balance the stance. the more they pushforward with a forward intention, the more they have to compensate backward. "levitate" simple means true neutra.
The tensing up the knees and horse and standing there as one could see in the Kung Fu movie is called Dead post where it is great to develop muscle power..etc. While "levitate" is called Live post it is target for six directional force and dynamic structure. These are two different type of cultivation and phenomenon.
Dead post is also called hard bow. and Live post is called soft bow.
Lots of great posts in here, and I agree with the idea that do be able to do it, one needs to do it. That's indisputable and the intent of my question was not to say one doesn't need to practice. But the point was to ask, what does it mean, and how do we develop it? Sure you do it by doing it, but what are you doing? Just start chain punching and practicing a step turn? Plenty of people who "DO IT" but are still stiff as a board they have not conditioned their body to attain what Hendrik is referring to here as a reference point. If you've ever met anyone that truly has the lightness you will know, I have. Hendrik has a great explanation of hard and soft bow above, and this is what I was getting at. what does it mean and what do you have to have in order to not be a Dead Post? Does whatever you're doing do it? Again, not implying anybody out there is wrong but raising some questions that I think is always good to ask ourselves.
Hendrik
10-19-2010, 08:55 PM
God........ now youre levitating......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wChk5nY3Kzg&feature=player_embedded
Hendrik
10-19-2010, 09:58 PM
Lots of great posts in here, and I agree with the idea that do be able to do it, one needs to do it. That's indisputable and the intent of my question was not to say one doesn't need to practice. But the point was to ask, what does it mean, and how do we develop it? Sure you do it by doing it, but what are you doing? Just start chain punching and practicing a step turn? Plenty of people who "DO IT" but are still stiff as a board they have not conditioned their body to attain what Hendrik is referring to here as a reference point. If you've ever met anyone that truly has the lightness you will know, I have. Hendrik has a great explanation of hard and soft bow above, and this is what I was getting at. what does it mean and what do you have to have in order to not be a Dead Post? Does whatever you're doing do it? Again, not implying anybody out there is wrong but raising some questions that I think is always good to ask ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BBDexSzmMM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRShWun7Mc4&feature=related
Hendrik
10-19-2010, 10:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7MNB7zjBXk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BBDexSzmMM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRShWun7Mc4&feature=related
Great clips Hendrik, it's about the journey, no stopping starting, just doing. the journey itself is the magical part. and there is no replacement for that. but as you mentioned, I feel there needs to be a reference point. we can't just start doing the forms over and over and over without being aware of what we're trying to achieve. i.e. doing YJKYM with excessive clamping, etc...that's a form of doing, but not doing it the right way.
we can't master it or know it from speculating about it on the boards as Robert and others mentioned. i certainly believe that. there's theory and then there's application. my interest was in hearing what everybody understands this to be, because it seems to be something overlooked in my experience.
it's like Hendrik mentioned, you can drive a car without knowing how it works, engine wise, suspension, etc. but i'm interested in knowing how it works and that's why i appreciate everybody's input. my own understanding of the wing chun body follows the concepts that I mentioned and in my lineage, the training and drills emphasize the body's natural dynamics. but i wanted to see if we could take things a little deeper and get into the details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7MNB7zjBXk&feature=related
take out the trash! :)
Hendrik, I'm interested and would like to attend. However I can't make it in time because I'm out of the country for work at the moment. I know you've got other things to do, but is there any chance I could drop by on a different date? I've got family in southern California and will likely visit them later this year. I could work around your schedule if you're going to be traveling or tied up with other things. Please let me know if this is possible!
Hendrik
10-21-2010, 09:33 AM
Hendrik, I'm interested and would like to attend. However I can't make it in time because I'm out of the country for work at the moment. I know you've got other things to do, but is there any chance I could drop by on a different date? I've got family in southern California and will likely visit them later this year. I could work around your schedule if you're going to be traveling or tied up with other things. Please let me know if this is possible!
Ok. let me know.
Anyone else interested in meet this satuday and bring a Video camera and post the clip in Youtube?
Ok. let me know.
Anyone else interested in meet this satuday and bring a Video camera and post the clip in Youtube?
will do! :D
martyg
10-22-2010, 01:31 AM
Terence, in a way, is absolutely correct. :) Its all BS - with artificial labels given to movement in a moment in time. But real movement is oneness.
A lotta hot air given to describe what is fundamentally alive and moving and changing.
Just reading through this and was going to say something similar - it's BS in that it's all one energy, one "engine of interaction". Those are just lables to split up and codify (artificially isolate) individual interactions during that interaction for training purposes for students who need that. The one energy is simply a continuity of energy, which relies on said continuous and alive connection to stay a part of it and interact. Though if you have no idea what you're actually touching when you make contact, establishing a kiu with, and interacting with, and instead are thinking of things in terms of limbs, all this will just go over someone's head.
Just reading through this and was going to say something similar - it's BS in that it's all one energy, one "engine of interaction". Those are just lables to split up and codify (artificially isolate) individual interactions during that interaction for training purposes for students who need that. The one energy is simply a continuity of energy, which relies on said continuous and alive connection to stay a part of it and interact. Though if you have no idea what you're actually touching when you make contact, establishing a kiu with, and interacting with, and instead are thinking of things in terms of limbs, all this will just go over someone's head.
perhaps most of us started out thinking of things in terms of limbs, but eventually as one progresses, it becomes about the flow, which is shapeless and alive, changing.
martyg
10-22-2010, 12:47 PM
perhaps most of us started out thinking of things in terms of limbs, but eventually as one progresses, it becomes about the flow, which is shapeless and alive, changing.
Wasn't referring to "flow" either. ;)
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