Advice on Sung

[tiaji1983]

Hello all,

I am looking for help in a way in getting someone to understand the subject. I have a student I am trying to help. When they practice Taichi, they clearly carry a lot of shoulder tension and uses muscle strength when doing the movements. I can explain sung to them, and sometimes they can get it, sometimes they cant. I tried to explain to clear the mind first, and the body will follow, and I tried showing different exercises, but they just dont get it. Do you guys have any other ways of explaining it, any advice, or any exercises a student to do to get it all the time?

Im also worried because eventually they will be learning the Wudang Formless form which is based on the Daoist theory of being like a baby. You have to completely let go and while you do the form, be formless. It requires to be completely sung with a clear mind, and you can change the form, add movements but not delete movements to make it formless. If he can't be sung, and have a clear mind, he wont be able to grasp it.

[YouKnowWho]

In CMA we have to loose 3 joints, the wrist joint, elbow joint, and shoulder joint. It's called 通三关(Tong San Guan). There is a drill that can help people to achieve that. The part that help to loose the shoulder joint is to hold your right arm in front of your head. You move your arm to the right side of your body. Make sure your elbow joint is straight when you move your arm so you can concentrate on your shoulder joint only. You then repeat the left side.

[taai gihk yahn]

Hello all,

I am looking for help in a way in getting someone to understand the subject. I have a student I am trying to help. When they practice Taichi, they clearly carry a lot of shoulder tension and uses muscle strength when doing the movements. I can explain sung to them, and sometimes they can get it, sometimes they cant. I tried to explain to clear the mind first, and the body will follow, and I tried showing different exercises, but they just dont get it. Do you guys have any other ways of explaining it, any advice, or any exercises a student to do to get it all the time?

Im also worried because eventually they will be learning the Wudang Formless form which is based on the Daoist theory of being like a baby. You have to completely let go and while you do the form, be formless. It requires to be completely sung with a clear mind, and you can change the form, add movements but not delete movements to make it formless. If he can't be sung, and have a clear mind, he wont be able to grasp it.

the words I like are "resilient" and "buoyant"; sung is also sometime described as "released"; experientially, it's a specific, almost unique state - it's extremely hard to communicate through words, but w a touch I can get you to feel it pretty quickly; I think of it as a sort of "balanced tension" - not too loose, not too tight - just right (I like to talk about it as "the Goldilocks Principle"...);

so how to get it? one can start at either end, or in the middle - sometimes it's the pelvis, sometimes it's the head, sometimes it's the rib cage / respiratory diaphragm, sometimes it's the feet; sometimes you need to lie the person down, sometimes sit them in a chair and maneuver these areas;

if someone can get the "head float" feeling, this is a good way to start - having them slightly tuck the chin and think about the nape of the neck getting long and free - sometimes giving an upward force to the base of the occiput can help with this - either from below (in standing) or above (if they r in sitting), depending...but also, the breath kinda needs to be "released" and free - this is a tricky proposition...

again, to me, hands-on is the most direct and effective way of communicating this to someone - words alone usually don't get you very far, because it's not an intellectual concept (well, it is, but you can't "think" yourself "sung", you have to simple engage it kinesthetically - it's almost "pre-thought");

well, not much help all this, but good luck...

[YouKnowWho]

After you have wrestled for 15 rounds, your body will be so exhausted that you can't use any more "brute force", you will then understand what a true Sung suppose to feel.

[SPJ]

as pointed out there are many relaxation exercises

1. shaking wrist, rotate wrist clockwise, counterclockwise. bend fingers or the wirst as far back as you could

2. flicking fingers outward, grabing with fingers

3. rotate elbow clockwise and counterclockwise

4. shoulder" swing the whole arm forward and backward in a circle, swing the whole arm left and right, bend your arm back as far as you can

5. stretch back forward and back ward--

while you are doing all those exercises, your mind is focusing on relaxing and relaxing

these are warming up and stretching regime

some of tensions from daily life postures and previous MA experience needed to be dropped by unwinding from the exercise listed above.

actually, we do these every single time, before we do anything else.

tai chi or otherwise.

:)

[KTS]

well, since there have been some exercises mentioned, i thought i would add a bit on the actual rules and perspective of it.

when you raise your arm, as an example, your elbow is heavy. your shoulder also sinks in and down roughly. your arm and hand should not feel force or tension as you raise and lower it.

roughly, u learn to maintain a ruleset to keep your frame from having as much excess tension as possible without compromising integrity.

so, the ruleset is to basically keep joints and the body from "popping", rising, "dragging" through space, or misaligned and not connected to the center.

[tiaji1983]

Ok thank you for your replies.

Tell me if Im on the right track to helping students.

First I teach the "Dying ****roach" which came from yoga.
Lay on back with palms on ground or bed or whatever. Start with toes, wiggle, feel, on inhale, as you exhale, relaxe and imagine them melting into earth. Repeat to feet, ankles, shins, knees, thighs, groin, hips, stomache, ribs, chest, shoulders, fingers, hands, wrists, forearms, upperarms, shoulders, neck, back of head, top of head, face, chin, and then inhale, feel whole body, exhale melt whole body. Repeat to bones, then to organs. After some time you can reach complete relaxation whenever you want by a deep inhale, feeling the body, then letting it go.

I teach standing on stake to feel the tension and release it.

I let the students experience it, by standing in peng, and have them rest thier arms on top of mine, then I tell them dont tense, just leave it there, and remove my arm. T then tell them that is the maximum amount of muscle strength to use when you do the form. Then I teach them how to sink and have them stand in peng, and slowly push against hier arm. I tell them use the minimum amount of energy required to resist, and sink with my push. When I cannot move them, they are surprised and ussually understand.

I also remind constantly to relax.


The issue is though, they forget and become tense. How can you train them not to forget?

Also with myself, I have been trying to stay sung 24/7 and I became aware of a lot of tension that I just cant release right away. I am getting better but its very difficult. I also have reached a stage when I can do the forms compeletely sung, so sung and relaxed I can actually feel the air part when I move. I cant do it all the time, but when I do its a wonderful feeling. Its not always recreatable. Same with when your tired. If you wear yourself out to become sung, how do you recreat it? Also I notice tension when I cross hands with someone else, that Im also getting better on. Anyone have any advise how to stay sung in those situations besides put yourself in those situations more?

[omarthefish]

the words I like are "resilient" and "buoyant"; sung is also sometime described as "released"; experientially, it's a specific, almost unique state - it's extremely hard to communicate through words...

You guys need to grab a dictionary.

"sung" just means "relaxed"

Nothing more. Nothing less.

All the rest is your own cultural baggage.

[YouKnowWho]

"Internal" guys always love to make simple thing complicate. A simple punch to the head can be ..... :p

[omarthefish]

Ain't that the truth.

I can just hear folks out there explaining how English doesn't have a work for "sung". If that was true then they would have to accept the other side of that statement: Chinese has no word for "relax". :D

p.s.
Ok, so maybe "relax" is actually "fang song" and "song" just means "loose". Either way, there's nothing special or mysterious about the word.

[bawang]

wudang formless form, dying cawkroach stance, lol

[KC Elbows]

I have a special song I teach them. It's called "relax your shoulder."

It goes like this:

Relax your shoulder.
Better.
No, it's up again.
Do it over.
Your shoulder, relax it.
Yes, that was perfect except the part where your shoulder was higher than Whitney Houston on crack.
Better.
Relax your shoulder.

It's a common song in many branches of gongfu.:D

[dimethylsea]

Hello all,

I am looking for help in a way in getting someone to understand the subject. I have a student I am trying to help. When they practice Taichi, they clearly carry a lot of shoulder tension and uses muscle strength when doing the movements. I can explain sung to them, and sometimes they can get it, sometimes they cant. I tried to explain to clear the mind first, and the body will follow, and I tried showing different exercises, but they just dont get it. Do you guys have any other ways of explaining it, any advice, or any exercises a student to do to get it all the time?


Have them hold the ball for insane periods of time. Alternately have them hold the ball with palms forward, while twisting the arms and pushing out through the heels of the palm for a much shorter period of time.

Doing both of these till ya feel like your arms will fall off is good sh*t.

Also ridonculous amounts of teacups exercise. I also like holding kettlebells in the "shoulder rack" position ( a la Steve Cotter's Full KO Kettlebells).

All this stuff will help people learn to relax those shoulders in good ways. Kettlebells also are great for general physical preparedness and have a host of other training benefits.

[taai gihk yahn]

on a more prosaic level, you want them to relatively inhibit the following typically hypertonic muscles: scalenes / SCM, upper traps, pecs, biceps, subscapularis, lumbar extensors, hip flexors, hip adductors, piriformis, hamstrings and you want them to facilitate short neck flexors, shoulder external rotators, rhomboids, mid to lower traps (critical - perhaps the most important), hip extensors (gluteus maximus), hip abductors (gluteus medius), quads;

not that you are turning off the first group, but you are balancing the tone between them and the second group; if you can get all this, you're golden...

[Scott R. Brown]

on a more prosaic level, you want them to relatively inhibit the following typically hypertonic muscles: scalenes / SCM, upper traps, pecs, biceps, subscapularis, lumbar extensors, hip flexors, hip adductors, piriformis, hamstrings and you want them to facilitate short neck flexors, shoulder external rotators, rhomboids, mid to lower traps (critical - perhaps the most important), hip extensors (gluteus maximus), hip abductors (gluteus medius), quads;

not that you are turning off the first group, but you are balancing the tone between them and the second group; if you can get all this, you're golden...

I can see it now;

<As you whack the student with a newspaper> "YOU ARE NOT RELAXING YOUR PIRIFORMIS, SUBSCAPULARIS AND RHOMBOIDS!!! Now do it again, and you will KEEP doing it until you do it RIGHT!!!!"

[taai gihk yahn]

I can see it now;

<As you whack the student with a newspaper> "YOU ARE NOT RELAXING YOUR PIRIFORMIS, SUBSCAPULARIS AND RHOMBOIDS!!! Now do it again, and you will KEEP doing it until you do it RIGHT!!!!"

yeah, pretty much; sometimes there's a cattle prod involved as well...

[YouKnowWho]

When they practice Taichi, they clearly carry a lot of shoulder tension and uses muscle strength when doing the movements.
There is a difference between "relax" and "loose". It's easy to be relax. It's much harder to be loose. Try to rotate your right arm forward and rotate your left arm backward at the same time. You then switch both directions. If you have problem to do this, your shoulder is not "loose".

[tiaji1983]

wudang formless form, dying cawkroach stance, lol

I understand laughing at dying ****roach, which is a yoga exercise that was just renamed by someone who doesnt know the name, but whats funny about Wudang Formless?

[tiaji1983]

Ain't that the truth.

I can just hear folks out there explaining how English doesn't have a work for "sung". If that was true then they would have to accept the other side of that statement: Chinese has no word for "relax". :D

p.s.
Ok, so maybe "relax" is actually "fang song" and "song" just means "loose". Either way, there's nothing special or mysterious about the word.

There is nothing special or mysterious about it, but it means using the least amount of muscle strength to complete the task, and thats what the students need to realize. They can do it sometimes, not all the time, which means they cant do it when it matters.

[tiaji1983]

on a more prosaic level, you want them to relatively inhibit the following typically hypertonic muscles: scalenes / SCM, upper traps, pecs, biceps, subscapularis, lumbar extensors, hip flexors, hip adductors, piriformis, hamstrings and you want them to facilitate short neck flexors, shoulder external rotators, rhomboids, mid to lower traps (critical - perhaps the most important), hip extensors (gluteus maximus), hip abductors (gluteus medius), quads;

not that you are turning off the first group, but you are balancing the tone between them and the second group; if you can get all this, you're golden...

Why do you say inhibiting these muscles will lead to sung?

[tiaji1983]

For everyone that says muscle failure will lead to sung, I do agree, but will the student be able to recreate it or move onto higher levels of sung?

Thank you everyone so far for your replys.

[YouKnowWho]

... higher levels of sung...

What do you expect out of your "high level" sung?

[omarthefish]

There is nothing special or mysterious about it, but it means using the least amount of muscle strength to complete the task, and thats what the students need to realize. They can do it sometimes, not all the time, which means they cant do it when it matters.

Well I am of the opinion that using a foreign word here only obfuscates the issue and makes it even harder to the student because now they not only need to learn to relax, they have to waste time trying to apprehend some supposedly foreign concept.

[omarthefish]

For everyone that says muscle failure will lead to sung, I do agree, but will the student be able to recreate it or move onto higher levels of sung?

Thank you everyone so far for your replys.

Physical exhaustion can certainly lead to relaxation but it also reduces your ability to move accurately. I think it's really only useful in as much as it may give a person a taste of what relaxed movement feels like. But an exhausted athlete is also a sloppy athlete.

[tiaji1983]

What do you expect out of your "high level" sung?

Feeling.

1. The more relaxed you are, the quicker your reaction time

2. The more sung you are, the more you feel, as I described earlier with feeling the air part when you do the form

3. The more sung you are the less the opponent feels.

[tiaji1983]

Well I am of the opinion that using a foreign word here only obfuscates the issue and makes it even harder to the student because now they not only need to learn to relax, they have to waste time trying to apprehend some supposedly foreign concept.

Agreed, the word "sung" is not important.
The concept is everything, but do you have to understand sung to be sung? If you cant be sung without understanding it, then you need to understand the foreign concept.

[tiaji1983]

Physical exhaustion can certainly lead to relaxation but it also reduces your ability to move accurately. I think it's really only useful in as much as it may give a person a taste of what relaxed movement feels like. But an exhausted athlete is also a sloppy athlete.

I agree. But I wanted to see if maybe someone who says exhaustion will lead to sung can give me some insight in how they developed sung off thier feeling.

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys need to grab a dictionary.
thanks for the direction there :rolleyes:


"sung" just means "relaxed"

Nothing more. Nothing less.
well, I've had two Chinese internal teachers who are of the opinion that "relaxed" doesn't get to the heart of the matter, in regards to what conceptually one is trying to do; which as far as I understand it, was what tiaji1983 was interested in discussing, how to get to that experiential state, not what the dictionary definition was; but hey, whatever...


All the rest is your own cultural baggage.
one might say the same for you...

anyway, let's all give thanks unto Omar yet again for taking the time to correct our linguistic misconceptions

[taai gihk yahn]

Why do you say inhibiting these muscles will lead to sung?

hey, ask Omar, he seems to know everything :rolleyes:

[omarthefish]

Agreed, the word "sung" is not important.
The concept is everything, but do you have to understand sung to be sung? If you cant be sung without understanding it, then you need to understand the foreign concept.

This is part you guys are missing. It's like philosophical yellow fever.

There's just nothing foreign about the concept. Claiming that it is something particular to CMA is just starry eyed sinophilia.


well, I've had two Chinese internal teachers who are of the opinion that "relaxed" doesn't get to the heart of the matter...
A Chinese speaker of English is no more qualified to comment on the language than an American speaker of Chinese. With an actual degree in the language combined with a decade of learning CMA from a Chinese teacher who does not speak any English, I am happy to match credentials on this topic.

I tend to go on about this one because, among other things, it's insulting towards the entire western world of athletics. . . or to the English language. As an actual Sinophile myself, am LOVE the Chinese language. I love all it's metaphor and it's ability to convey subtleties and deep meaning with just a few short characters. I love stumbling onto concepts that do not translate well...."sung" is just not one of them. See, loving the language as much as I do I even went as far as getting my degree in the language. Funny thing is, I love English too. I just love language.

Funny thing about English: It too is capable of using words in all sorts of varied and contextually specific ways. Take the word "relaxation" for example. You can not present a single example, not one in the entire Chinese language, not in all of the writing ever done on Kung Fu about "song" or "fang song" that is not perfectly represented in the English use of the word. All you have to do is get out of your little box and take a look at how other professionals use the word. Talk to dance instructors and see if they thing that relaxed = limp. Talk to musicians or singers. Talk to Jujitsu experts like Eddie Bravo (or just watch him on youtube), get out and check out Alexander technique or some other kind of expert body worker....


. . . .and then get back to me about how "relax" just doesn't cover it.

And give your mother tongue a little credit.

[YouKnowWho]

1. The more relaxed you are, the quicker your reaction time.
I think you are talking about "speed" and not "Sung". The Sung traning is only a "subset" of the speed training.

[bawang]

total relaxation is a good way to get your organs turned into mush from one punch

tension and relaxation both are important in taijiquan concept of ying yang

[tiaji1983]

I think you are talking about "speed" and not "Sung". The Sung traning is only a "subset" of the speed training.

No sir. Im talking about Sung. My teacher does a demo, I seen him do this on a trained boxer. He has the boxer stand in a guard stance, with his hands right by his face, and shows the boxer hes going to touch the side of his head and how. He then relaxes and uses the wet towel technique and would touch his head everytime.

Now he showed me the technique, which is basically relaxing the arm completely and let it fly out like a wet towel, so it goes around the arm. Then he showed me how to counter it. He first had me stand in the boxer's stance and told me to block it. I couldn't even though my hands were right there. Then he told me to "relaxe." I went sung, relaxed but not completely, and when he started moving I automatically reacted and deflected the strike without realizing it because it happened so fast. Sung increases reaction time. Sung and relaxe are 2 different things. There was no speed training involved, just being sung and having a clear mind made the reaction happen.

[tiaji1983]

total relaxation is a good way to get your organs turned into mush from one punch

tension and relaxation both are important in taijiquan concept of ying yang

I agree but thats a different subject. Sung is not total relaxation from my understanding of it. My teacher taught us Iron Wire as well so we know how to take a punch. There is a balance when doing Taijiquan that encompases both sung and the tension in Iron Wire.

[Scott R. Brown]

Let me see if I have this this straight now; the Sung Dynasty was the "Relaxed" Dynasty? They were all just really mellow fellows?:confused:

[taai gihk yahn]

This is part you guys are missing. It's like philosophical yellow fever.
There's just nothing foreign about the concept. Claiming that it is something particular to CMA is just starry eyed sinophilia.
where did I say that there was anything "foreign" about the concept? never said that; what I said was that using words to describe the state was tricky - you know, that whole deSaussere signifier / signified thing (although I think that Chunag Tzu may have had him beat by a few years on that, lol); as far as contracting starry-eyed sinophilia, well, i've been vaccinated, so that's not a worry anymore...


A Chinese speaker of English is no more qualified to comment on the language than an American speaker of Chinese. With an actual degree in the language combined with a decade of learning CMA from a Chinese teacher who does not speak any English, I am happy to match credentials on this topic.
good point; well, my current teacher, Sat Hon (http://qigongtherapy.com), is Chinese, but grew up in the US, where he spoke Cantonese at home but attended Hackley School in upstate NY where he obviously spoke / studied in English: so he is basically a bilingual native speaker of both; he also speaks Mandarin fluently; he also formally studied classical Chinese literature at Princeton as an undergraduate and has continued to do so "informally" over the last 30 years; so when he tells me that he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice, I think it's his purview; the other teacher was BP Chan, who did not like "relax" either, and while he was certainly not as formally educated, he did have a pretty fair command of English and was somewhat well-regarded in the "internal" community; that said, I will concede that "buoyant" and "resilient" are certainly NOT standard translations of "sung", however based on my personal experience, I find them useful from a qualitative perspective to help people get the idea, since, IMPO, sung is predicated on having unimpeded "flow" of ground reaction force up the kinetic chain, which is what gives you that "floating" feeling in the cranium when you get it right; of course, one can argue that this is NOT the correct thing to feel, but that's another thread...


I tend to go on about this one because, among other things, it's insulting towards the entire western world of athletics. . . or to the English language. As an actual Sinophile myself, am LOVE the Chinese language. I love all it's metaphor and it's ability to convey subtleties and deep meaning with just a few short characters. I love stumbling onto concepts that do not translate well...."sung" is just not one of them. See, loving the language as much as I do I even went as far as getting my degree in the language. Funny thing is, I love English too. I just love language.
ditto - IMPO, the first paragraph of Lolita is the most brilliant piece of prose ever written (and that was VN's 3rd language - amazing), followed closely by the opening verse of Pale File by same...


Funny thing about English: It too is capable of using words in all sorts of varied and contextually specific ways. Take the word "relaxation" for example. You can not present a single example, not one in the entire Chinese language, not in all of the writing ever done on Kung Fu about "song" or "fang song" that is not perfectly represented in the English use of the word. All you have to do is get out of your little box and take a look at how other professionals use the word. Talk to dance instructors and see if they thing that relaxed = limp. Talk to musicians or singers. Talk to Jujitsu experts like Eddie Bravo (or just watch him on youtube), get out and check out Alexander technique or some other kind of expert body worker....
. . . .and then get back to me about how "relax" just doesn't cover it.
well, when you actually work with clients / students (as a PT I've had some experience with that...), "relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization (as for Alexander, AFAIK, they don't actually use the term much - they tend to like to say things like "the head free and away" - lol, sounds a lot like the first taiji principle of "heui ling yuen ding" / "empty the collar, suspend the top" - well, anyway, at least the teacher I knew and worked with didn't); so when trying to communicate something like sung, telling people to "relax" can actual be counterproductive, because either they over-do it, or in fact get very defensive and insecure and go the other way! now, of course, this is nothing to do with the actual translation, but in terms of cultural consciousness, it is not necessarily the most efficacious translation, in terms of getting people to achieve the specific state of postural cohesion desired; of course, as you doubtless know, language can be rathe fluid depending on circumstances, and can be very context dependent at times; so it's sot of a gray zone on that one...


And give your mother tongue a little credit.
I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...

[omarthefish]

Now we're getting somewhere.

he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice
That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".

"relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization
Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .

The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. :eek: Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "
I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...

[omarthefish]

Now we're getting somewhere.

he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice
That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".

"relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization
Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .

The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. :eek: Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "

I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...
Back off man. Get back over there on your own side of the argument. You're not allowed to change sides mid stream like that....

On a parting note, I actually do agree that using a foreign word can have its advantages if only to allow the student to approach the concept relatively free of their preconceptions. And on a random aside...lol...I just read Lolita a couple months back. Didn't finish it for some reason but it was pretty enjoyable and the opening paragraph was a lot of fun.

[omarthefish]

Let me see if I have this this straight now; the Sung Dynasty was the "Relaxed" Dynasty? They were all just really mellow fellows?:confused:

Well their calligraphy is pretty **** relaxed looking. . .:p

http://a0.att.hudong.com/54/93/01300000181322121842938985477_s.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

relaxing the arm completely and let it fly out like a wet towel,
Now you are talking about the combat usage of Sung. This is a complete different subject. Not only you have to have Sung on your shoulder joint, you will also need Sung on your elbow and wrist joint. Besides Sung on all 3 joints, you will need to let your Qi to be able to flow smoothly through all 3 joints and then reach to your finger tips. That kind of Qi flow training is beyound the Sung training that we started out on this discussion. I will call this "maximum speed' training instead.

Here is a good training for this:

Both you and your opponent have right side forward, try to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm. Even if you have the advantage to initial your strike, since you have to pass your opponent's leading arm and then reach to his back arm before your opponent can intersect your strike with his leading arm, your "speed" will be critical.

By using concrete training method, it will be much easier to discuss the concept of Sung.

[taai gihk yahn]

Now we're getting somewhere.
apparently so;


That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".
interesting; I'll ask him about it next time I se him; interestingy, his background involves boxing (under Floyd Patterson), Laban, Feldenkreis and modern dance (he has an MA in choreography), among others so he actually has worked w the concept of relax/release in a number of different contexts, so this has certainly flavored his sense of it; he is an interesting cat - about as evenly based in both cultures w a deep understanding of classics on both ends; his latest project is a film call "Taiji on 23rd Street" which is being premiered at the Rubin Museum (http://www.rmanyc.org/) in november (I;m not sure if it was scored by Phillip Glass like his last indy film was...)


Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .
The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. :eek: Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "
now THAT'S interesting - the idea that the term doesn't quite get to the heart of the matter in both languages - so here's my question - did the term itself have a different connotation at one point? or, would there by any chance be a ****phone character that has a closer meaning? very interesting...


Back off man. Get back over there on your own side of the argument. You're not allowed to change sides mid stream like that....
lol; yeah, how did that happen? I was all excited about the prospect of a protracted flame war...


On a parting note, I actually do agree that using a foreign word can have its advantages if only to allow the student to approach the concept relatively free of their preconceptions. And on a random aside...lol...I just read Lolita a couple months back. Didn't finish it for some reason but it was pretty enjoyable and the opening paragraph was a lot of fun.
"the tip of the tongue taking a trip down the palate to tap, at three, Lo. Li. Ta." - sheer brilliance; ok, you have GOT to read Pale Fire - it will blow your mind the way the text constantly self-references in a way that makes you go wow...just wow...

[tiaji1983]

Now you are talking about the combat usage of Sung. This is a complete different subject. Not only you have to have Sung on your shoulder joint, you will also need Sung on your elbow and wrist joint. Besides Sung on all 3 joints, you will need to let your Qi to be able to flow smoothly through all 3 joints and then reach to your finger tips. That kind of Qi flow training is beyound the Sung training that we started out on this discussion. I will call this "maximum speed' training instead.

Here is a good training for this:

Both you and your opponent have right side forward, try to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm. Even if you have the advantage to initial your strike, since you have to pass your opponent's leading arm and then reach to his back arm before your opponent can intersect your strike with his leading arm, your "speed" will be critical.

By using concrete training method, it will be much easier to discuss the concept of Sung.


well I was using the wet towel technique to demonstrate the use of "relaxed" as I define it, and I was using the sung deflect as an example of sung=fast reactions. I think you missed my point completely.

[omarthefish]

- the idea that the term doesn't quite get to the heart of the matter in both languages - so here's my question - did the term itself have a different connotation at one point? or, would there by any chance be a ****phone character that has a closer meaning? very interesting...

Post a censor free version of ****phone? I'm trying to guess it but I can't figure it out.

I doubt it once had a different communication as so many of the Taiji terms were developed specifically for Taiji. Peng is a classic example. You can't even type it with Chinese typing software. You need to type "bing"掤 and keep scrolling down to the really archaic and rarely used characters before you find it. Fortunately, Chinese typing software learns your habits so the next time you need it it's towards the top of the list.

As to "fang" meaning "release".

放松（放鬆）

Song 松：
A typical dictionary definition tends to mention only "loose", not relaxed:
http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%CB%C9&tn=dict

Fang 放
If you scroll down a bit you can see the translations as "free; release"

It's only the two of them together that mean relax:
http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%B7%C5%CB%C9&tn=dict

YouKnowWho has mentioned how important looseness may be compared to relaxation and my own teacher actually does stress looseness far more than relaxation. Relaxation is the method. Looseness is the goal but again, loose, not limp. Getting back to the bodywork ideas we are talking about striving for free and easy motion. We don't talk about peng much and I think the reason is because obsessing about peng (as many do) gets in the way of loose, open joints. In my opinion, Peter Ralston demos the idea really well in this long, boring clip with horrible presentation because of all the pauses for his translators. I thought it was worth the wait though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA&feature=related

You have to wait for the end when he finally demos stuff that does not rely on peng.

[Shaolin Shi]

Post a censor free version of ****phone? I'm trying to guess it but I can't figure it out.


How about ****phone?

[bawang]

so many years in china and youre still trying to translate the word relax. lol

what is relax mean? whats re? whats lax? what does the x signify? this word is so profound and spiritual, man.

[omarthefish]

How about ****phone?


Doh！ There is is.

And Bawang...no...I was the one saying that it just ****ing means "relax", nothing more, nothing less. The rest of what's been going on is linguistics, etymology and so on. Not necessarily profound stuff but definitely pretty interesting to an amateur linguist like myself.

[bawang]

ok man cool i read many words and my brain tire

to be summary song means relax and fangsong means be relaxed. im chilese i kno dis ok

i havent been really relaxed doing taijiquan form until i started hitting bags and lifting weits. relaxed hitting and lifting really helps.
doing silk reeling and forms real slow actually made me more tense. the slow made me not able to connect and link body movements.

maybe taiji1969 your problem is makeing your students train mostly forms, and doing the form too slow.

[tiaji1983]

Doing the form slow and low as possible is for strengthening the legs and perfecting the movements, Medium stance and medium speed to learn, and high stance and fast to fight. You have to learn to practice the form and to relax in all 6 ways, and mix the 3 because you never know what situation you may be in when your in a fight. I could teach the students to lift weights and do the forms fast, but they will be missing some points of the forms and the style. I wont remove forms, because I understand the usefulness of them. Even though I understand your arguments against them Bawang, and I think I understand why you have those arguments.