Speed and Power Training in CMA

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago, 3 guys from a famous speed training CMA style visited a school that was famous in power generation training in CMA. In that visted school, nobody wanted to accept the challenge (I believe they didn't have confidence that they could win). I try not to mention the name of both CMA styles here so we won't get into which style is better argument. After that day, I always had a big question mark in my head. If the challenge fight did happen that day then who was going to win? The guy with the maximum speed, or the guy with the maximum power? If you cross train both styles, can you have both abilities at the same time? Or it's just a trade off that when there is more Yang, there will be less Yin (or the other way around).

What's your opinion on this?

[Yum Cha]

Speed to get the advantage, power to apply it is how I look at it.

[Lucas]

i think who ever was the better fighter that day would win. the powerful guy would not be too slow and the fast guy would not be too weak. I believe with being a good fighter you can use your strengths as well as your weaknesses strategically.

but there is a trade off in training depending on how you use your time.

that is my opinion.

[jdhowland]

Depends upon the mindset and training of the combatants. Of course, no mention was made of technique or matching physical types but superior speed plus superior mass is hard to defend against.

Still, it's pretty hard to hurt someone who is prepared and willing to fight. Some styles emphasize flurries of punches to put the opponent on defense. In my experience that's a weak strategy against someone who can take it. All else being equal, I'll bet on the aggressive dude with strength training.

To quote the late Brother Abe Kamahoahoa: "It's not speed that's important. It's power and accuracy.

To quote the late great Warren Zevon: "Some have the speed and the right combinations. If you can't take the punches, it don't mean a thing."

[Knifefighter]

i think who ever was the better fighter that day would win. the powerful guy would not be too slow and the fast guy would not be too weak. I believe with being a good fighter you can use your strengths as well as your weaknesses strategically.

but there is a trade off in training depending on how you use your time.

that is my opinion.

If skill is the same, power overwhelms speed in unarmed physical combat. Since power is force/time it is pretty much by definition also fast.

[Lucas]

i agree with that. i just go off the assumption neither fighter is 'weak' or 'slow' but just some variance in degree. since it cma i also assume striking mainly.

[Lucas]

by that i mean i assume both fighters are strong and fast and roughly the same weight, the main difference being in the emphasis of conditioning. but if it was a noodle vs a steak...yea noodle goes splat.

[SPJ]

yes. as pointed out both are important.

in the beginning, posture or stance training are important, and then the accuracy or preciseness in executing the techinques/move are important

speed and power are gained over time.

in styles that striving on speed, such as mantis and tongbei, there are several moves carried out in a hurry or salvos of moves, one after another 2 to 5 movs in a heart beat--

in styles that striving on power, such as shaolin and ba ji, one move or one strike that is powerful enough that ends the fight.

----

[yutyeesam]

The one with the better timing does. Speed and power can only take you so far if distance and timing aren't developed.

[Lucas]

The one with the better timing does. Speed and power can only take you so far if distance and timing aren't developed.

I add fight experience to this.

[SPJ]

the dilema between speed and power is your physical attribute

if you are big and strong, go for power training

if you are small and light weighted, go for speed training

bomber vs fighter

bomber is slow by carrying heavy bomb loads and does serious damage upon delivery

fighter is fast with machine gun and does light damage but vital ones upon delivery

----

[EarthDragon]

I am firm believer in speed beats anything. If you are quicker to the draw then no power in the world will compare. if you are quick enough to step off the tracks even a train cant hurt you.

[Violent Designs]

A power guy with good TIMING will kill a speed guy.

[EarthDragon]

not if hes slower, timming takes a 2nd place to speed becuse your timing would have to be so acurate every time to land a punch or a kick, its nearly impossible to time all your reactions

[YouKnowWho]

Here are 2 old Chinese saying again:

- "Everything can be countered. Only extreme speed and extreme hardness (power) have no counter."

- "Skill beats speed, speed beats slow, slow beats no skill."

[Violent Designs]

not if hes slower, timming takes a 2nd place to speed becuse your timing would have to be so acurate every time to land a punch or a kick, its nearly impossible to time all your reactions

Yeah, if you time a guy right even if he has all the speed in the world it won't matter.

If fast guys are king then fastest fighters would always win.

Look at Leonard vs. Hearns I

Or Pacquiao vs. Marquez

Hearns is super fast, super powerful with a bullet jab and a sledgehammer right hand.

He also has WAYYYY more reach than Leonard.

But Leonard manages to win with superior defense, technique and TIMING.

So I will respectfully disagree with you mate. :)

[YouKnowWho]

What kind of speed training do you guys like to do?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The problem we run into with these kinds of debates is that style is not always the key factor in a victory. Since training methods are what makes up a style, yes it is a key component but other variables must be taken into account. Mostly size, strength, endurance, and experience. You cannot attribue style to these variables in a fight.

If you have a 150lb guy fighting a 200lb guy and both have farily equal skill, I will bet on the 200lb guy 8 out of 10 times. There is a reason in combat sports that weight classes are required. Speed is a good thing to have, but when the 200lb guy closes the gap, clinches, than takes the 150lber down, guess what, speed means nothing anymore. Unless the smaller guy is well versed on the ground but again we are using hypothetically that both of are equal skill.

I have sparred and rolled with guys 50lbs over my weight and it makes a huge difference. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

[Violent Designs]

Cotto (power guy, slower, very strong) vs. Malignaggi (speed guy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jck7Cfc_pj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcg6ZQlsgK0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYerY-Fv19c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR2PDVxyG-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzVmP5NiKs&feature=related

With exceptional pressure, power, and timing Cotto breaks up the speedster.

[Violent Designs]

Yodsanklai (power pressure fighter/stalker, tactician) vs. Colossa (fast rangy boxer with solid power and technique, faster than Yod)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUZuoH7oqAk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-GAung3WBI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdo9DNm0Xe4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYjYicY69iU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNpgLGx2PLE&feature=related

LOOK AT PART 5 ESPECIALLY

1:00

when Yodsanklai crushes his guard with that round kick :D :D :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It really isn't an either/or thing, you you have power you have speed, but speed doesn't equate power as all those "slappy-flippy" demos of guys throwing 10 punches in one second, punches that wouldn't hurt a 12 year old kid, show.
The highest output of force is from the faster strike WITH the most weight behind it.
THAT is power.
Sometimes people confuse quick reaction or just natural quickness with speed.
No weight lifter lifts a heavy weight slowly, they do it with speed ( explosivness).
That is what we are truly talking about, taking you body from zero to 100 in as quick a time possible, that is POWER.

As a great master once said, "all the speed in the world won't matter if you can't hurt the other guy".
All the power in the world won't matter if you can't hit him either.

[Dragonzbane76]

people can say what they want about speed will beat power or what ever but,
I've seen some big guys that were pretty dam fast. I'm a big guy and i've never been called slow. I walk around about 220, and it's not fat.

This debate is not realistic in the fact that there are a lot of different veriables to take into consideration.

my thoughts are, have both. build speed and power together.

[Violent Designs]

i think u should challenge sanjuro to a fight to the death.

[Dragonzbane76]

i think u should challenge sanjuro to a fight to the death.

I will only fight him to the death with a duel using trout. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://wireninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Mortal_Kombat_by_AwXomeMan-540x432.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will only fight him to the death with a duel using trout. :p

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news/18653/_1274261828.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

that's about right ronin. :p

[mickey]

Greetings,

I find that the speed element is important. I have noticed that those who are speed oriented can dramatically increase their impact power with what would appear to be slight increases in strength.

For those who are power oriented, timing becomes their equalizer. It does not meant that they should not train speed.

Balance is necessary for both types of fighters when preparing for life and death situations.

mickey

[Violent Designs]

also take into considering:

reach

height

pressure

footwork/angles

technique

[EarthDragon]

dragon

This debate is not realistic in the fact that there are a lot of different veriables to take into consideration
good point I think we are being general but your corrct lots of factors to count.

violent,
if we are talkig about boxing or sport as you stated then OK, i will agree but on the street if i can hit a guy in the trechea or corrodid artery before he can move cuz im quicker they strength would have no berrier.

also please remember that E=mc so speed increses power......... a little tiny lead bullet can do lots of damger because its moving quicker than a slow slege hammer.

mantis depends on quickness and speed and nothing can match it

[Xiao3 Meng4]

also please remember that E=mc so speed increses power......... a little tiny lead bullet can do lots of damger because its moving quicker than a slow slege hammer.


First, it's "E=MC^2" Energy = mass times the speed of light squared; and the observable increase in mass at sub-lightspeed velocities is negligible.

Second, the equation you mentioned has little to do with Newtonian physics (the type of physics we deal with in the macro, regular world.) A better equation is Force (measured in Newtons or PSI) divided by Time (measured in terms of How long it takes a Force to reach its maximum) equals power.

Example: 33PSI / 3 seconds = an increase of 11PSI per second. There's your power.

Third, the tiny lead bullet has a much smaller weight, but also a much higher force and a much smaller focal point than the sledgehammer. Look at a different example for a minute:

when comparing a strike against concrete between pickax a sledgehammer... if they're of equal size and weight and you apply the same amount of power to them, the pickax will penetrate more than the sledgehammer will because of the way in which power is being transferred from the tool to the concrete - either through a large, flat, dissipating surface or through a focused point. It's kind of like the difference between a Palm Strike and a phoenix eye punch.

At least, that's what I remember. :)

[EarthDragon]

Xiao,
I didint even know I had all thos keys on my board to do that. LOL
Im old and not very computer saaavy. however your saying that sir issac newton theoires match the speed vs power thing more than alberts? I am not much of a physicist so thank you for the expliantion.

So I realize the smaller the focal point the more damge, but doesnt speed factor differentiate the equation?

[sanjuro_ronin]

if we are talkig about boxing or sport as you stated then OK, i will agree but on the street if i can hit a guy in the trechea or corrodid artery before he can move cuz im quicker they strength would have no berrier.

also please remember that E=mc so speed increses power......... a little tiny lead bullet can do lots of damger because its moving quicker than a slow slege hammer.

mantis depends on quickness and speed and nothing can match it

A bullet CAN cause lots of damage, no doubt but since we are talking people and NOT ballistic, that is a tad irrelevant.
Taking you sledge hammer example though, if I were wearing a bullet proof vest I would rather get shot with a 38 ( in the vest of course, LOL) then get hit in the chest with a 10 lbs sledge hammer going at 30 mph !!

[Dragonzbane76]

a little tiny lead bullet can do lots of damger because its moving quicker than a slow slege hammer.

not a very realistic comparison.....

compare a 223 round to a 12 gauge slug. Look at the exit holes... and then come back and tell me which does more damage. the larger the object the wider the mass is distributed throughout. The more wide spread the damage associated with such.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Sorry to say, ballistics and people do not make for a good analogy. I know like four other people have said this, but I thought I would throw my 4 cents in.:p

[EarthDragon]

yeah my analogies suck sometimes. OK scratch that how about a tortoise and a hare? smoke and a pancake? bong and a blitz

[Dragonzbane76]

So I realize the smaller the focal point the more damge, but doesnt speed factor differentiate the equation?

why are you hung up on speed factor... Can't a person work toward both and wouldn't that make them better?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In a nutshell, speed only counts if there is enough impact force in the strike to make the person crap his pants and cry mommy.
:p

[EarthDragon]

dragon

why are you hung up on speed factor... Can't a person work toward both and wouldn't that make them better?
umm becuse the question form the thread srater asked.........

If the challenge fight did happen that day then who was going to win? The guy with the maximum speed, or the guy with the maximum power?

therefore I will always choose speed over power as getting in quicker and striking sooner is always better than having power.
If you can poke someone in the eyes quicker than your opponent then what matters if your opponent is more powerful?
sanjuro, my thoughts are the faster something is moving the more impact it will have. obviously power with speed combine is better but you knwo who asked which of these two will be victorious

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think John probably meant speed or strength, not speed or power because power is directly proportional to speed ( typically and all else being equal)


sanjuro, my thoughts are the faster something is moving the more impact it will have. obviously power with speed combine is better but you knwo who asked which of these two will be victorious

Rather get hit by a 30mph fist or a 40mph pillow?

[Frost]

In a nutshell, speed only counts if there is enough impact force in the strike to make the person crap his pants and cry mommy.
:p

oh snap someone has oiled the correct here, its why theres weight catagories in all combat sports folks, spend is next to useless unless theres power behnind it, if it wasn't the kempo guys would be cleaning up in competition :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

oh snap someone has oiled the correct here, its why theres weight catagories in all combat sports folks, spend is next to useless unless theres power behnind it, if it wasn't the kempo guys would be cleaning up in competition :D

For the last time, man, stop making sense!! Your going to run everyone off!!:D

[Frost]

For the last time, man, stop making sense!! Your going to run everyone off!!:D

well if you want even more sense, its why the TCMA styles (hakka, southern and northern) place so much value on their power development sets and put so much emphesis on correct body structure

[David Jamieson]

heavyweight vs flyweight.

there is the crux of it.

[EarthDragon]

actually the beginning UFC up to 10 I think had no weight classes, and some guys like paul vuankc the polar bear who was like 320 lbs or somethign lost a few fights to much smaller and quicker opponets. so did that huge blak guy form somilia cant remember his name.
dont get me wrong you need both power and speed as frost said when training you focus on both, but speed is the superior trait of two...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I guess you could look at like this, would you rather take a punch from:

A. A Wing Chunner doing chain punching

B. A boxer doing a right cross (or left if he's southpaw)

I know from being hit by both which inflicts the most damage. I'll let you all guess which.:)

[David Jamieson]

I guess you could look at like this, would you rather take a punch from:

A. A Wing Chunner doing chain punching

B. A boxer doing a right cross (or left if he's southpaw)

I know from being hit by both which inflicts the most damage. I'll let you all guess which.:)

The boxer has better structure, more power an better fighting form.

sorry wing chun.

[EarthDragon]

in that text yes were your matching power there. however if the fists went up for comabt and the wing chuner hit the boxer in the throat before the boxer could move to do the right cross what woud the boxers power have to do with the end result? plus if you focus on speed you can run away faster after you hit the guy.....

[Iron_Eagle_76]

in that text yes were your matching power there. however if the fists went up for comabt and the wing chuner hit the boxer in the throat before the boxer could move to do the right cross what woud the boxers power have to do with the end result? plus if you focus on speed you can run away faster after you hit the guy.....

Sure, but that's a big if. The problem is when people say they are going to hit soft areas like the eyes, throat, groin, ect. it is much harder than it sounds. These are small areas and the likelihood of you hitting them is not good, especially when you have a boxer pumping a jab into your face and setting up a powerful cross punch.

There are no absolutes in anything, but 99 percent of the time, I'll take the boxer.;)

P.S. Almost any decent boxer is taught to tuck their chin, one of the first lessons. Good luck getting that strike in with that.

[David Jamieson]

the boxer works hard on few things.
most wing chun folks don't work that hard on way more stuff than what the boxer does.

so in kung fu terms, yes, luck can win the day, but fear the one technique practiced ten thousand times more than you fear the 10,000 techniques practiced once.

:p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

the boxer works hard on few things.
most wing chun folks don't work that hard on way more stuff than what the boxer does.

so in kung fu terms, yes, luck can win the day, but fear the one technique practiced ten thousand times more than you fear the 10,000 techniques practiced once.

:p

If you and I keep agreeing on things, I fear the four horsemen of the apocalypse will be storming earth, or breaking the seal, or however that stupid story goes.:D

[David Jamieson]

I was a boxer once. I like it more than wing chun. what can i say? :)

[EarthDragon]

The problem is when people say they are going to hit soft areas like the eyes, throat, groin, ect. it is much harder than it sounds. These are small areas and the likelihood of you hitting them is not good, especially when you have a boxer pumping a jab into your face and setting up a powerful cross punch.

true but alot of styles focus on these small areas to stike quick and get out or follow up with another attack, unlike sport of boxinfg with padded gloves there are lots of areas that when hit can stop you quick even if its just for a split second.

P
.S. Almost any decent boxer is taught to tuck their chin, one of the first lessons. Good luck getting that strike in with that.

totaly true to avoid KO only, but what about the base of the skull, xyphoid, eyes, armpit, bladder, kidney, mandibula, corrid sinus, not all these can be protected adn if they are hit first its very easy to move away or follow up or run LOl.


If you and I keep agreeing on things, I fear the four horsemen of the apocalypse will be storming earth, or breaking the seal, or however that stupid story goes.
most reasonable educated on the subjest type people will agree on alot of things.... its the ignorance that never agrees with whatever is said

[-N-]

If you cross train both styles, can you have both abilities at the same time? Or it's just a trade off that when there is more Yang, there will be less Yin (or the other way around).

What's your opinion on this?



Speed to get the advantage, power to apply it is how I look at it.

Mantis classically uses speed for the setup, and power move to finish off.

[ShaolinDan]

mass * acceleration = force
mass * velocity= momentum
e=mc^2 is energy if you turned all the matter into energy...not the same thing
momentum and force would both be relevant/related
also this quantity would be divided by surface area of impact
finally the time for the energy transfer would be relevant...cushy spot vs. hard spot.
This is why little bony guys like me can have such painful punches even if the overall force is significantly lower. :)
Should be strength vs. speed, however...
ALL other things being equal, I would lean towards power in hand to hand. however, with blades, or if the fast guy is a pressure-point expert (conditioned fingertips, high accuracy &c.) then I say speed.

[-N-]

What kind of speed training do you guys like to do?

Open up the range of motion.

Develop relaxed movement.

Streamline and coordinate all movements.

Tie in footwork and striking to natural frequency of body recoil.

Develop instinct to commit and attack without hesitation.

Hit stuff hard.

[SPJ]

if you are wielding a straight sword (jian) and spear (qiang), speed is your lifeline.

if you are wielding some thing heavy, such as dao, power is in your every move/

----

[YouKnowWho]

actually the beginning UFC up to 10 I think had no weight classes,

http://www.sportsnox.com/mixed-martial-arts/14907-600lbs-sumo-vs-169lbs-mma-fighter-ktfovideos.html

[Yum Cha]

Mantis classically uses speed for the setup, and power move to finish off.

Sounds about right.

[YouKnowWho]

Mantis classically uses speed for the setup, and power move to finish off.

Sounds about right.
This is why I love the Mantis system so much. the fast non-committed hand striking combo (such as 勾採搂手 Gou Lou Cai Shou, ...) can be used to set up many SC throws.

Here are some speed training that may be fun to try:

1. Jump in the air and throw straight punch, back fist, and upper cut by using the same arm before your feet land back on the ground.
2. Hit as fast and as hard as you can like a mad man on heavy bag until you can't do any more (about 60 punches).
3. Ask your opponent to punch as fast as he can at your face and see if you can catch his arm.
4. Both you and your opponent have right side forward, try to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm (Mantis master Brendan Lai's had challenged me on this).
5. Right after you shower, try to throw a single front kick to shake off all the water on your leg (Mantis master Brendan Lai's favor training method).
6. Both you and your opponent stay in kicking range with both arms down. Try to move in and hit your opponent's chest before he can block it (Zimen guys favor training method).
7. Ask your opponent to move in and try to knock your head off, see if you can stop him with your kick on his belly.
8. Try to spin your body as fast as you can and see if you can have the feeling that your eye balls is going to fly out of your eye sockets (SC guys training method).

[EarthDragon]

youknowwho
, yea thats the guy emanuel yarbourrgh but the better match is when he fought keith hackney in UFC 5 I think.

but here is a clear defination of speed beeting power. slow fat power mind you but still power

[David Jamieson]

I think that in the mainstream thinking about fighting, the gravitation and understanding leans towards mma for the most part.

In that leaning there is a call for more aggressiveness in the fighters and also more intent in action.

a lot of direct targeting happens there isn't a lot of superfluous stuff going on.

So, with that it has become a fairly level playing field and what will happen next is the introductions of more exotic stuff skill wise going forward.

the very first "north american style" toughmans, nhb, ufc stuff had everybody and their dog stepping up but now it's leveled out and there is an actual "style" emerging out of it that demands exotics as solutions to opponents tactics.

silva and st.pierre to name only two do in fact resort to surprisingly out fo the norm tactics and use them frequently and to their advantage.

so, in context to this, power will bet speed because you are in weight classes and conditioning and stamina have more cache than fancy technique and the guys that are leveling all of it are doing the best it seems.

It's getting refined.

Pretty soon there will be ufc forms taught ion classes where they string together a crap load of high percentage techniques in a row. lol

None of this has anything to do with the practice of classical chinese martial arts or "traditional" if you will. Because nothing compares to angry sifu during lion dance discipline. But that's another cup of tasty tasty tea. :)

[-N-]

This is why I love the Mantis system so much. the fast non-committed hand striking combo (such as 勾採搂手 Gou Lou Cai Shou, ...) can be used to set up many SC throws.

That is one of the strategies repeated over and over in the forms. Blitz attack to setup the power/kill shot. Blitz attack to setup the takedown/throw. It is up to the student to train that on a live person.


1. Jump in the air and throw straight punch, back fist, and upper cut by using the same arm before your feet land back on the ground.

We have a similar one, but against a partner.

Close in on the other person as quickly as possible in one footwork. Land 3 hits before the footwork completes.

Close in on the other person as quickly as possible with a double step. 5 hand motions before the 2nd step lands.

Last motions can be hits or throws.



3. Ask your opponent to punch as fast as he can at your face and see if you can catch his arm.

We also do this with defender's hands down by his sides, or arms crossed to start. Attacker can be any position.

And to develop a fast attack, we make the attacker start with hands down and defender already with hands in guard.

[EarthDragon]

I thought it was interesting that all along I said i was a fan of speed vs power............. then I watched the brock lesner get his arse handed to him by a guy who was so much quicker and far less powerful. This shows that all the power doesnt matter if you got a quick jab.

[wutymes]

comparing speed and power is not the way to approach it.

Some people who have no weight advantage win by speed, but everytime they hit, the hit is effective. So is speed or power really more useful? Neither.

[EarthDragon]

wutymes

Some people who have no weight advantage win by speed, but everytime they hit, the hit is effective. So is speed or power really more useful? Neither.

yes but the question that was asked is......

If the challenge fight did happen that day then who was going to win? The guy with the maximum speed, or the guy with the maximum power?

therefore he is asking us to pick one.

[Dragonzbane76]

the answer is both. You need both.

[Violent Designs]

You're acting as if Cane Velasquez hit like a girl or something....

[EarthDragon]

not at all Violent, but compared to lesner??? I mean come on, brock is way bigger adn more powerful. cain was faster adn got that eye cutting jab in with speed that basically won the fight