Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[cerebus]

For those of you with training in the systems of Kung Fu derived from the "Tibetan Lion's Roar" system, if you could choose only 3 empty-hand fist sets which exemplified your system, which 3 would you choose (which do you consider to be the most "essential", and why)?

[jdhowland]

1. Luhk Lehk Kyuhn--done as partner drills, not line drills. It has the basics.

2. White Crane Lohan Kyuhn--basic and powerful. Iron Chain has more techniques and Ting Gong Kyuhn is more complex and interesting but I'd have to go with lhk for it's emphasis on simple, brutal combat ideas.

3. Haahp Ga "number one" -- Our sifu didn't give it a name but it was the first set he learned from Ng Yim Ming. Lots of grappling. Lots of fast short power moves. Compliments the White Crane nicely. As a catalog of techniques I would choose our 5th hg set which is much longer and very complex, but #1 could be a system in itself.

[htowndragon]

chyuun pao kup.

[Violent Designs]

chyuun pao kup.

there's a form called chuan pao kup?

or are you referring to the three techniques?

[jdhowland]

there's a form called chuan pao kup?

or are you referring to the three techniques?

Knowing htdragon, I think in his minimalist way he is reminding us that you don't need the kyuhn forms to practice lama style.

Like gwa, sau, chaap, there are countless ways to apply the basics.

[cerebus]

Thanks! Yeah I realize that fist sets aren't necessarily needed to learn and become skillful in an art, but I do like the classical forms for a variety of reasons. Hopefully some more people will give their opinions as to which sets are the most "essential" or useful. Keep it coming! :)

[darkie1973]

Luk Lek Kuen (partnered drilling for the basics), Chuat Yap Bo (all technique combinations,.... although Iron Chain's not bad either), and Gim Gongs for evasiveness.:D

[Violent Designs]

chuan pao kup, gua sau charp....

i'm rather fond of these. :o

[lkfmdc]

One problem with a question like this is that different traditions have different versions of forms, even different forms

I could tell you what is important in my tradition, may mean nothing to everyone else

[cerebus]

One problem with a question like this is that different traditions have different versions of forms, even different forms

I could tell you what is important in my tradition, may mean nothing to everyone else

That's okay, I understand. I'd still like to hear what you think is important, and even more so, why you find it important, if you're okay with sharing that. These arts are each fascinating systems in their own right and I find them all very interesting. Thanks.

[lkfmdc]

In Chan Tai San tradition, we'd have to start with "Siu Lo Han" - all the basics and strong hand work, a few kicks, but not many compared to later forms

To include the leg techniques, I'd be sort of torn between "Dai Gam Gong", "Lo Han Teui" or "Lihn Waan teui"

Finally I'd pick "Fu Hok Seung Daau" for the close quarters, elbows and throws

Fortunately, I just do the techniques now, not the forms, so I don't have to chose ;)

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=lkfmdcFortunately, I just do the techniques now, not the forms, so I don't have to chose ;)[/QUOTE]

Ahh, going back to the old system of training, eh? Renegade! Traditionalist!

Don't you know that by observing the tradition of of training in technique you are contributing to the "classical mess" and ruining decades of improvement in showmanship for the rest of us? Have you not learned by now that the old way of doing things is useless and must be discarded? How can anyone judge you if you do not do sets with long pauses to show off your form?

I'm leaving.

[once ronin]

chey ma chey sun is all we did for a few months before adding chin pow kep chui.

we did do alot of conditions of sort with arms and legs.

when chey ma starts to look good 6 power look lek is added.

[Frost]

Fortunately, I just do the techniques now, not the forms, so I don't have to chose ;)

oh stop being so f*cking sensibe will you!

[jdhowland]

chey ma chey sun is all we did for a few months before adding chin pow kep chui.

we did do alot of conditions of sort with arms and legs.

when chey ma starts to look good 6 power look lek is added.

Wow. Tough school. I only had to do che san for two weeks before adding chyun cheui and started 6power in my second month. A lot of lama schools emphasize conditioning every day. Sounds like good training.

[lkfmdc]

Ahh, going back to the old system of training, eh? Renegade! Traditionalist!



I suppose going from a "Lion's Roar" tradition to MMA is a lot easier than from some of the other traditions, I know I am NOT the only one to do so

[Violent Designs]

That is because Hop Ga and CLF are two of the most realistic CMA systems.....

sh1t is natural and it works.

the goal is generally to hit people hard.

without any extraneous, esoteric bullsh1t.

[taai gihk yahn]

In Chan Tai San tradition, we'd have to start with "Siu Lo Han" - all the basics and strong hand work, a few kicks, but not many compared to later forms

To include the leg techniques, I'd be sort of torn between "Dai Gam Gong", "Lo Han Teui" or "Lihn Waan teui"

Finally I'd pick "Fu Hok Seung Daau" for the close quarters, elbows and throws

Fortunately, I just do the techniques now, not the forms, so I don't have to chose ;)

you are nothing more than a gorified kickboxer knucklehead - what could you POSSIBLY know about traditional training; and stop copying names from a Chinese take-out menu and pretendin that they are names of forms!

[bawang]

ya hes so clueless
new york san duh

[lkfmdc]

you are nothing more than a gorified kickboxer knucklehead - what could you POSSIBLY know about traditional training; and stop copying names from a Chinese take-out menu and pretendin that they are names of forms!

well considering YOU and a whole lot of CTS 's people all started their intro to CMA with me, I guess no one knows nothing huh :eek: :D

[lkfmdc]

I especially don't know shuai Jiao's leg seizing throw, right Taai Gihk Yahn

[cerebus]

Many thanks to all those who contributed relevant input, I really appreciate it. I'm really hoping that some day someone will write the definitive text in the English language on one or all of these styles. Michael Staple's books have an amazing amount of information for their size (especially the Hop Gar book) but there is much more that I would love to see covered as well. Maybe some day...

[lkfmdc]

Many thanks to all those who contributed relevant input, I really appreciate it. I'm really hoping that some day someone will write the definitive text in the English language on one or all of these styles. Michael Staple's books have an amazing amount of information for their size (especially the Hop Gar book) but there is much more that I would love to see covered as well. Maybe some day...

meh, been there, done that :D

[cerebus]

meh, been there, done that :D

You wrote a book on Lama Pai? If that's what you mean, where could I buy a copy?

[lkfmdc]

You wrote a book on Lama Pai? If that's what you mean, where could I buy a copy?

Most of what I have written over the years has been put up at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/lamakungfu.html

[Frost]

Most of what I have written over the years has been put up at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/lamakungfu.html

Many thanks for the link

Since we actually have access to someone everyone here considers an inside the door student and real authority on TCMA and a teacher of fighters (well apart from HW108 but lets not go there) do you mind if I ask a few questions about how you approach training in your school with regards to what you learned from CTS (I know you have spoke about this before but not sure if these questions have been asked, apologies if they have)

I know your master was a fighter and you follow in that tradition but I also know he knew and practised a lot of styles and sets so I was wondering do you personally practise your styles sets still, or do you feel that practising the seed/core movements in isolation and in shadow boxing and pad work is more than enough to ingrain the styles essence and approach to fighting? I know you don’t teach the sets to your students but do you still see them as useful for continuing the styles lineage?

I know you have spoken before about how your guys use lama tactics and techniques in the clinch. And when throwing and striking, but in regards to the striking when using longer range strikes does it look like traditional CLF and lama? ie both arms in use and whipping in from various angles both vertical and horizontal axis as well as diagonal, or is it more like you see MMA and sambo guys when they throw overhands and long upper cuts: with the other arm defending the chin and less variety in angles?

[lkfmdc]

I know your master was a fighter and you follow in that tradition but I also know he knew and practised a lot of styles and sets so I was wondering do you personally practise your styles sets still



In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

I am sure you know a LOT of MMA people do Yoga and variations.

In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused



do you feel that practising the seed/core movements in isolation and in shadow boxing and pad work is more than enough to ingrain the styles essence and approach to fighting?



We do a lot of things to develop the skills
1. shadow boxing
2. partner drilling
3. equipment work
4. partial sparring
5. full sparring

I also developed a criteria, a protocol to see what "works" and what doesn't




I know you have spoken before about how your guys use lama tactics and techniques in the clinch.



Not just in the clinch. You know, the funny thing, really, is that people from my actual tradition clearly see us applying the Lion's Roar technique in our fights and teachings (for example David Chin, David Rogers, etc)

And people who know boxing and Muay Thai see we are not doing those things

Our hand strikes, our angles, our fighting strategy is completely different than boxing and frequently different from Muay Thai




but in regards to the striking when using longer range strikes does it look like traditional CLF and lama? ie both arms in use and whipping in from various angles both vertical and horizontal axis as well as diagonal, or is it more like you see MMA and sambo guys when they throw overhands and long upper cuts: with the other arm defending the chin and less variety in angles?



Partially, see above.

Our punches tend to be longer range than traditional boxing. We use a different energy ("ging"). We throw them at different angles, and with different footwork.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

[Frost]

In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

I am sure you know a LOT of MMA people do Yoga and variations.

In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused



We do a lot of things to develop the skills
1. shadow boxing
2. partner drilling
3. equipment work
4. partial sparring
5. full sparring

I also developed a criteria, a protocol to see what "works" and what doesn't



Not just in the clinch. You know, the funny thing, really, is that people from my actual tradition clearly see us applying the Lion's Roar technique in our fights and teachings (for example David Chin, David Rogers, etc)

And people who know boxing and Muay Thai see we are not doing those things

Our hand strikes, our angles, our fighting strategy is completely different than boxing and frequently different from Muay Thai



Partially, see above.

Our punches tend to be longer range than traditional boxing. We use a different energy ("ging"). We throw them at different angles, and with different footwork.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

thanks for the replies, it makes a lot of sense :)

[jdhowland]

lkfmdc; In most senses NO, we no longer do sets/forms

The only thing we still do are the "chi kung" things (in Lama, in Cantonese, we have Lihn Gung, Heih Gung and Noi Gung). Basicly these are yoga like exercises designed to teach flexibility, strength, balance, etc

Glad to hear you still do these. Those old fogie b*st*rds (who beat up half of Gwangdung Province) knew they were important for daily training.


In fact, I think that one of the problems with the "tradtiional" way of forms is that the forms have three elements

1) fighting technique
2) yogic like practice
3) performance

Yet today people don't know which is which and get them all confused

Right on. Along with the performance aspects in our lama kyuhn are Hung Mun signals that can in no way be construed as fighting techs and repeated combinations that increase the level of exercise without adding new material.


HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

Delighted to read this. Lama trains to keep the hands up, hence the emphasis on many hours of painful shoulder conditioning with muhk yih pai, crane standing, etc. Our chyun cheui evolves into a jin cheui shot from jaw level with the other hand protecting the head. Both our wc and hg sets feature this. Paau cheui is learned with the parrying hand extending to the rear but is practiced with that hand remaining in contact with the opponent. Tse Sifu applied almost all of his kap cheui as shorter pek cheui with one hand protecting the head.

People who have only seen lama basics will think you are just doing boxing. Arrgh! The angles and principles are different.!

[cerebus]

Great info! Thanks!

[PM]

some excellent info here guys, thnx!

[taai gihk yahn]

You know, the funny thing, really, is that people from my actual tradition clearly see us applying the Lion's Roar technique in our fights and teachings (for example David Chin, David Rogers, etc)
hmmmm, interesting how EVERYONE is named David...

[Violent Designs]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/garyc101/ZCNKjGasxh3V8arZlvXoiWvWwuvJRDtybNYZVDkKLV0du3JTd5 mLPeYIkqBu/conspiracy.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=1C9REJR1EMRZ83Q7QRG2&Expires=1288267245&Signature=W6p6F75CO0zjFOit68wJzhlcC5Y%3D

[jdhowland]

hmmmm, interesting how EVERYONE is named David...

"These are the Daves I know, I know. These are the Daves I know..."

Who here is old enough to get that reference?

I'll change my name to David if the Steves will. Y'know, might as well join the club.

[taai gihk yahn]

"These are the Daves I know, I know. These are the Daves I know..."

Who here is old enough to get that reference?

I'll change my name to David if the Steves will. Y'know, might as well join the club.

Actually "Steve" is a valid subset name for studying Lama w CTS...

[lkfmdc]

We are all Dave, we have all been assimilated into the one Dave

(or, alternately, "Dave's not here man")

[sanjuro_ronin]

"These are the Daves I know, I know. These are the Daves I know..."

Who here is old enough to get that reference?

I'll change my name to David if the Steves will. Y'know, might as well join the club.

"...some of them are Davids but most of them are Daves, we all have the same name but come from different moms..."

[jdhowland]

Actually "Steve" is a valid subset name for studying Lama w CTS...

That's who I had in mind. Maybe, since I'm not a CTS student or in the Dang lineage I should not presume to Steverage or to become one with the Dave.

I have Kwan/Quentin and Quintin in my lineage. I'll change my name to Quint.

[jdhowland]

"...some of them are Davids but most of them are Daves, we all have the same name but come from different moms..."

You got it!

[TenTigers]

Our punches tend to be longer range than traditional boxing. We use a different energy ("ging"). We throw them at different angles, and with different footwork.

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"
Very similar to how we train as well. The long arm strikes are more extended, to develop the power generation and alignments, but in practice the chin is guarded.
Beginners get a bit confused, but it all comes together in time.
Funny..people have asked me if we do Hop-Ga or Choy Li Fut.....

[lkfmdc]

people have asked me if we do Hop-Ga or Choy Li Fut.....

well, the answer is "yes", because you do

[TenTigers]

well, the answer is "yes", because you do
pretty much on point.
The element punches in Hung-Ga come directly from Hop-Ga through Wong Yun-Lum. Some say WYL also influenced CLF. I agree. With all the challenge fights he had, I am in no doubt.
Couple that with the fact that my previous teachers did CLF, (one Sifu actually wanted me to teach CLF rather than Hung-Ga...)as did their teachers..and that my Si-Hing teaches CLF..you could say that my Hung-Ga is heavily flavored with CLF.
My brother, David Rogers has also had a strong influence...he has always been very generous in sharing his Hop-Ga with me.
So, yeah...I'm a mutt.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=TenTigers:So, yeah...I'm a mutt.[/QUOTE]

The best of breeds.

[jdhowland]

Does this mean Fu Hok Seuhng Ying gets added to the list?

There aren't many lama stylists on board so this thread will fizzle out pretty soon.
Since I really like the subject I'll cheat and throw in an "honorable mention:"

Hop Ga's Dai Johng Mui Fa. Not essential technique-wise although it does add more footwork than is found in the typical line drills. But a huge part of the system is strengthening and conditioning and this is a good example. Beginners learn this on the floor with no equipment. Later you add the plum flower stakes (this one is done on a pattern of nine posts). Full tilt boogie is to do this with heavy wooden weights, the muhk yih pai.

Be well, Quint

[htowndragon]

look at youtube, my classmates have put up videos of hop gar's dan mui form

[cerebus]

Yeah, Youtube is a great resource. I especially love all the older stuff from the '70s & further back.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Ahh, going back to the old system of training, eh? Renegade! Traditionalist!

Don't you know that by observing the tradition of of training in technique you are contributing to the "classical mess" and ruining decades of improvement in showmanship for the rest of us? Have you not learned by now that the old way of doing things is useless and must be discarded? How can anyone judge you if you do not do sets with long pauses to show off your form?

I'm leaving.


are you searious ? or Just trying to be funny? I am not sure, that is why I asking.

[CharlesDaCosta]

For those of you with training in the systems of Kung Fu derived from the "Tibetan Lion's Roar" system, if you could choose only 3 empty-hand fist sets which exemplified your system, which 3 would you choose (which do you consider to be the most "essential", and why)?

I was taught that the 4 pillars of Pak Hok are: Diamond Fists, Lohan, Kom li sau, Needle in cotton.

They are supose to be the core system. I would prefer others as the answer but - who am I.

[CharlesDaCosta]

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

The flailing is training to help you develop a good twist. If you allready have that then it is not needed, and in a real ... fight it is not to be used unless it is pulling your enemy.

[jdhowland]

are you searious ? or Just trying to be funny? I am not sure, that is why I asking.

I'm never serious when I rant, but sometimes I do it to make a point. My silly response was to a post made by someone who I knew would understand it. There were no classical lama sets 150 years ago. They were developed as a response to the martial school culture of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[jdhowland]

The flailing is training to help you develop a good twist. If you allready have that then it is not needed, and in a real ... fight it is not to be used unless it is pulling your enemy.

Nice. I was taught the same.

[PM]

quick question: was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?

[jdhowland]

...was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?

A good question. I doubt anyone can really answer it since a lack of historical evidence cannot prove a negative statement. As far as I know, no one in my lines ever made the connection. The early recorded names are si hao and lama kyuhn.

Some points to ponder: Fut Ga does seem to have been used generically for "Buddhist" styles. The fact that there are several Faht Ga systems with no clear relationship to one another supports this idea. The Faht Ga I have seen in the U.S. has no evident relationship to lama boxing. Choy Lei Faht may have been considered one of the Faht Ga systems and it has some techniques in common with lama kyuhn. And, of course, some branches of Hung Kyuhn show lama influence from Wong Yen Lum. Could it be that they were all "Fat Ga Kyuhn" based on the idea that they have similar origin myths of being passed down within Buddhist temples before they were adopted by various militia movements?

[CharlesDaCosta]

I'm never serious when I rant, but sometimes I do it to make a point. My silly response was to a post made by someone who I knew would understand it. There were no classical lama sets 150 years ago. They were developed as a response to the martial school culture of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

OK, :) and what you say about the development of routines sounds very logical.

[CharlesDaCosta]

... I doubt anyone can really answer it since a lack of historical evidence cannot prove a negative statement. As far as I know, no one in my lines ever made the connection. The early recorded names are si hao and lama kyuhn.

Some points to ponder: Fut Ga does seem to have been used generically for "Buddhist" styles. The fact that there are several Faht Ga systems with no clear relationship to one another supports this idea. The Faht Ga I have seen in the U.S. has no evident relationship to lama boxing. Choy Lei Faht may have been considered one of the Faht Ga systems and it has some techniques in common with lama kyuhn. And, of course, some branches of Hung Kyuhn show lama influence from Wong Yen Lum. Could it be that they were all "Fat Ga Kyuhn" based on the idea that they have similar origin myths of being passed down within Buddhist temples before they were adopted by various militia movements?

I was told that the Lama style had many different names; it had even been addressed as the "No name style."

While I was in China, I was given the impression that the name "Monk's Style" (FG) was used by some, to describe a non-Shaolin Buddhists style. My coach, on the Mainland called my style (pak hok) CLF. I keep trying to tell him they are two different systems. He gave me the impression that to mainlanders what I do is CLF or FG. So ....

Now I except that they are from the same system.

I have also herd that CLF was considered to be the Imperial style. I am waiting to find another CLF stylist to confirm this history. If this is true, then both PH and CLF claim to be imperial styles of Buddhist origins. That would make it even easier for me to accept the possibility that they (FG, PH, HG, ...) come from the same system.

[jdhowland]

I was told that the Lama style had many different names; it had even been addressed as the "No name style."

I was told that lama Sing Lung never named his system. It was others who called it "lama boxing."

One thing to consider is that when you become a buddhist monk you discard your family name and take a new dharma name. This was convienient for those who wanted to hide from authorities because it made them nearly impossible to trace.

This also means that kung fu men in this situation could not call their systems by a family name. It might become simply "Faht Ga" by default.


Now I accept that they are from the same system.

Yeah, probably is some connection there based on the structural similarities and some common terminology.

Unless someone comes up with historical evidence showing who Choy Fok and "Goldhook" Li really were there is not much chance of getting a definitive answer. They probably weren't the only men teaching northern styles in Gwangdung. I'm also open to the idea that Chan Heung may have modified his system in his later years, enough to change its basic character.

Too bad I can't find new parts for my time machine!

[Gru Bianca]

Too bad there are zero info about Sing Long, where he was from originally so on so forth, cause at the temple there is no mention of him anywhere in the genealogy chart.

Also, in regards to the CLF and Lama "connection", I read once in a Chinese text that Chan Heung's uncle had spent time at the same temple of Sing Long.

[jdhowland]

Hi, Gru Bianca! Good to hear from you. I had hoped you would join this discussion.


Too bad there are zero info about Sing Long, where he was from originally so on so forth, cause at the temple there is no mention of him anywhere in the genealogy chart.

I have come to feel that there is almost nothing reliably known about him except that he existed and taught in different places. The tradition that he traveled through northern China with four disciples sounds much like the tradition of "five ancestors" found in various societies. The descriptions of him as an abbot may have been to increase his status after his death. Some fighting monks did enter the philosophical and meditational colleges of the monastic universities and become teachers and lamas eventually. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he took refuge for other reasons and his identity was changed to keep his activities secret.


Also, in regards to the CLF and Lama "connection", I read once in a Chinese text that Chan Heung's uncle had spent time at the same temple of Sing Long.

If that was Chan Yuen Wu, I would expect him to be a bit older than Sing Long. Some people say it was Choy Fok who stayed there. Either way it could indicate a family connection with the temple and maybe there was a peculiar system of kung fu passed on by teachers in that area.

To get back to the original question in this thread: Gru, do you have favorite sets or training methods from Bak Hok Pai?

[Gru Bianca]

In the book of the temple that I have there is mentioned a story of a certain Shen long which it is said to be born from a Zhong Family in Panyu (Guangzhou) and to be a "Shaolin" master.. The story of this person's identity is true as it is taken from an official record, however the characteres used for his name are of a different variation compared to the mostly seen in the story of the style.


In my limited experience I'd say all the Kam Gong and Lo Hon sets and of course Min Loy Cham done contestually to "another set" to boost a certain type of energy.
For power development surely the Siji Hou lek.

Regards
Luca

[TenTigers]

chut yap bo, because it has long range, short range, turning, spinning,
oh, and cause it's the only set I know...

[CharlesDaCosta]

One thing we do know for sure is that around "that time" (These styles were famous) the key players actually used each others techniques, and this was to a large extent. Therefore it would not matter if L and CLF came from the same system. They had merged on numerous points thus making them appear to be the same style to the untrained eye.

I had spoke with a key player in PH. He told me my stances were too high. They should be more like Hung Gar stances. HG I thought ... how could this be, the Lama's system should have been a Chan Quan style. After all, it was supposed to have come from the north and our principles seem more northern ...

Well, do others agree that LS stance work should be more like HG then CQ?

[CharlesDaCosta]

chut yap bo, because it has long range, short range, turning, spinning, oh, and cause it's the only set I know...

Chut yap bo is my favorite too, simply because it has the widest range of techniques. And it could be done light, shooting, or powerful. What I wish is that there is a routine that has all or most of the PH techniques in it.

Sometimes, the idea of infinite possibilities is not a good thing. Sometimes it is better to have a box big enough to fit everything in it, one that make it seem manageable.

[CharlesDaCosta]

In the book of the temple that I have there is mentioned a story of a certain Shen long which it is said to be born from a Zhong Family in Panyu (Guangzhou) and to be a "Shaolin" master.. The story of this person's identity is true as it is taken from an official record, however the characteres used for his name are of a different variation compared to the mostly seen in the story of the style.

In my limited experience I'd say all the Kam Gong and Lo Hon sets and of course Min Loy Cham done contractually to "another set" to boost a certain type of energy.
For power development surely the Siji Hou lek.

Regards
Luca

I do know that some Tibetan schools had close dealings with the Shaolin Temple (they were the same school of thought). I have even herd of Tibetans being Abots at shaolin during different times. I also know that the term Lama does not have to mean a Tibetan Buddhist. I met Vietnamese Chinese who told me that the term means High Monk, usually a leader, not necessarily a Tibetan Buddhist.

What is Siji Hou lek?

[TenTigers]

does anyone know that book by George Parulski? He demonstrates a Tibetan White Crane form, but I have never seen it before. Anyone have any idea which form he is demonstrating?

[yeshe]

The word Lama is a Tibetan word.It is a contraction of la na mei pa wich means "nothing higher" it is a translation of the sanscrit word guru.

[Gru Bianca]

Whether Singlong was really of Tibetan origin or was Chinese doesn't really matter that much, however in order to have more tangible proof that the three systems Lama, Pak Hok and Hop Gar are really originated from the Siji hou and that the last was really of Tibetan origin it would have helped to know more about him and where he was from.

[lkfmdc]

Sing Lung likely was NOT tibetan in the ethnic sense we think of today, he was from "Tibet" and in that time "tibet" included parts of what is now China such as Qinghai

Considering the stories of him dueling, killing people, beating them, etc he may not have been a "monk" (or he was a very bad one)

The monastery where he lived is a hot bed of martial arts, the entire area is. Several close by monasteries (including where CTS was raised) were also martial arts hot beds

I tend to believe now that most of the southern martial arts were much more incestuous than we have been led to believe or even want to believe

[lkfmdc]

does anyone know that book by George Parulski? He demonstrates a Tibetan White Crane form, but I have never seen it before. Anyone have any idea which form he is demonstrating?

I saw the book once, if that is supposed to be "Tibetan" white crane than I am a blond with big ta tas

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sing Lung likely was NOT tibetan in the ethnic sense we think of today, he was from "Tibet" and in that time "tibet" included parts of what is now China such as Qinghai

Considering the stories of him dueling, killing people, beating them, etc he may not have been a "monk" (or he was a very bad one)

The monastery where he lived is a hot bed of martial arts, the entire area is. Several close by monasteries (including where CTS was raised) were also martial arts hot beds

I tend to believe now that most of the southern martial arts were much more incestuous than we have been led to believe or even want to believe

Indeed, they have far more in common then they have different.
Sure some stuff may seem to be "unique" but once you get out of that "stylistic bubble" you see that is not the case.

[TenTigers]

I saw the book once, if that is supposed to be "Tibetan" white crane than I am a blond with big ta tas

I'm picturing that right now...
Dude, you are hawt!

[lkfmdc]

I'm picturing that right now...
Dude, you are hawt!

shouldn't sanjuro jump in now

[taai gihk yahn]

I am a blond with big ta tas

I thot that u had pretty much worked out that whole thing in therapy...

[lkfmdc]

I thot that u had pretty much worked out that whole thing in therapy...

I've told you before, that wasn't me, that was YOU, your other personality, the one that also tried to kill you and ran naked through washington square park

[cerebus]

does anyone know that book by George Parulski? He demonstrates a Tibetan White Crane form, but I have never seen it before. Anyone have any idea which form he is demonstrating?

That form (Small Plum Blossom Form) was taken directly from the book "White Crane Kung Fu Volume 1 History and Forms" by Ralph Caputo & James I. Wong which was published by Koinonia back in the 70s or 80s. In fact, everything in Parulski's book was taken from other books. His "Pa Kua" was him copying the Gao Bagua linear sets which Robert Smith demoed in his first book on the subject...

[Gru Bianca]

Not only the region of Qinghai was of Tibetan influence there was also the once called region of Kham which was extended from part of the east sides of Tibet up to a big part of the western side of Sichuan province.
And funny enough in that very part of the now days Sichuan province there is an area called Xinlong which seems to be quite important for temples of Tibetan Buddhism belonging to the Nyngma tradition.

That aside it would have been interesting to have more info available on him and on where he did learn and from whom as in certain circles it is said that the "Tibetan" label was just a "marketing" strategy.

[lkfmdc]

http://academic.reed.edu/anthro/364/maps/Kapstein.2006.xx.Tibetan.Empire-small.jpg

Reach of Tibetan empire for reference

[Gru Bianca]

Yup more then correct

[mickey]

Greetings,

I thought you guys might find this site useful. It has a crapload of stuff regarding Lion's Roar, along with some very rare photos for those looking for that historical connection:

http://www.lionsroar.name/


enjoy,

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

I thought you guys might find this site useful. It has a crapload of stuff regarding Lion's Roar, along with some very rare photos for those looking for that historical connection:

http://www.lionsroar.name/


enjoy,

mickey

That is Steve Richards site, its got lots of info on Lionsroar and SPM too.
Steve is a good guy, really nice guy too.

[brothernumber9]

There's the bait.

[Gru Bianca]

Undoubtedly an interesting read, it would have been better though if the sources of so many info were mentioned

[CharlesDaCosta]

The word Lama is a Tibetan word.It is a contraction of la na mei pa wich means "nothing higher" it is a translation of the sanscrit word guru.

It could still be a Tibetan word. What I am getting at is that the Label is also used by other Chan/Zen style Buddhists to refer to a Guru.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Greetings,

I thought you guys might find this site useful. It has a crapload of stuff regarding Lion's Roar, along with some very rare photos for those looking for that historical connection:

http://www.lionsroar.name/


enjoy,

mickey

I still find this site confusing and difficult to navigate (find what one is looking for). I do know that there is an Indian style called "Diamond Gate" "Indra's Fists" "Thunderbolt Fists" ... It may have been the Indian style that we got stuff from. I met someone from Eastern Europe and he did say they had a routine that was from Tibetan Martial arts.

I also know that Vajra Pani was at one time considered the ... of Some styles of Tibetan Martial Arts. I had adopted Her as the patron saint. The Term Lion's Roar or Lions' Roar may not be connected to what was mention there. It relates to two things: 1) the Buddha declaring his arrival (Enlightenment); and 2) the 4 Lions on the Indian Flag points ...

[chusauli]

I would say that Lion's Roar is the proclamation of the Dharma.

Most martial artists would find little meaning in that.

[lkfmdc]

I would say that Lion's Roar is the proclamation of the Dharma.

Most martial artists would find little meaning in that.

When the Buddha was born, he pointed one finger at the earth and one finger at heave and roared like a lion to announce his arrival

At least that's how the story goes ;)

For people whom Buddhism is intricately woven into their life, I could see "Lion's Roar" being used as a term for their martial art

There IS in Tibet an Lion's Roar sect

[chusauli]

David,

I remember at one time you met the bodyguards of the Dalai Lama.

How much Lama type fist did they know compared to what Chan Tai Shan taught us? Personally, I don't think our art is from Tibet, but from Southern China.

[lkfmdc]

David,

I remember at one time you met the bodyguards of the Dalai Lama.

How much Lama type fist did they know compared to what Chan Tai Shan taught us? Personally, I don't think our art is from Tibet, but from Southern China.

there is, of course, a huge amount of southern Chinese kung fu in Lama Pai. There is also northern, Mongolian and Manchurian in there

There are however certain things that are in Tibetan martial arts that you can see in Lama pai.....

I don't think of Lama Pai as tibetan, I think it is a combo of a lot of traditions

[Gru Bianca]

there is, of course, a huge amount of southern Chinese kung fu in Lama Pai. There is also northern, Mongolian and Manchurian in there

There are however certain things that are in Tibetan martial arts that you can see in Lama pai.....

I don't think of Lama Pai as tibetan, I think it is a combo of a lot of traditions

Thanks for your post. May I ask what type of martial arts of Tibet you have been exposed to to be able to see the similarities with Lama Pai?

Thank you.

Regards

[Gru Bianca]

David,

I remember at one time you met the bodyguards of the Dalai Lama.

How much Lama type fist did they know compared to what Chan Tai Shan taught us? Personally, I don't think our art is from Tibet, but from Southern China.

And you would not be the only one to have that opinion. I met few people in Hongkong which they were mentioning the same thing, that's why I tried to gather some info at the Qingyunsi but with no luck.

[TenTigers]

Stephen P. Hayes was personal bodyguard to the Dalai Lama at one time.
Do you mean to say that CTS ....




was a NINJA???







:D

[lkfmdc]

The ethnic Han Chinese are nationalistic to the point of being racist. Sorry, I know that isn't politically correct, but it is still true

There have been very serious attempts to either discredit Lion's Roar martial arts based upon their "foreigness" OR to assimilate them and take away their entire NON Han identity

A book in China claims Lion's Roar was founded by Dat Mo in Shaolin! What a joke.

The "Hap Ga" name was because it was better to call it "Patriot's Style" than "foreign religious sect"

However, there is plenty of NON Han influence in the art

[Gru Bianca]

The ethnic Han Chinese are nationalistic to the point of being racist. Sorry, I know that isn't politically correct, but it is still true

There have been very serious attempts to either discredit Lion's Roar martial arts based upon their "foreigness" OR to assimilate them and take away their entire NON Han identity

A book in China claims Lion's Roar was founded by Dat Mo in Shaolin! What a joke.

The "Hap Ga" name was because it was better to call it "Patriot's Style" than "foreign religious sect"

However, there is plenty of NON Han influence in the art

Yes, pretty much as you say, we are well informed about the peculiarity of the Chinese people.

As per my previous question, could you please tell me which Tibetan martial art/s you had the privilege to be exposed to that allowed you to see the similarities with Lama?

I ask with honesty and with the only intent to know more.

Thank you very much in advance

Regards

[lkfmdc]

I have a student who married a Tibetan woman and lived in the Tibetan community in Northern India. I have also seen some of what the Dalai Lama's bodyguards do. There is also a yoga group whose Guru learned a few martial arts movements while at a monastery in Tibet.

Tibetans are not the most forthright people, some will tell you there are no martial arts in Tibet, never were. But do you really think that there was never any fighting art in a distant, hostile land? Or among a people who conquered an empire?

[Gru Bianca]

I have a student who married a Tibetan woman and lived in the Tibetan community in Northern India. I have also seen some of what the Dalai Lama's bodyguards do. There is also a yoga group whose Guru learned a few martial arts movements while at a monastery in Tibet.

Tibetans are not the most forthright people, some will tell you there are no martial arts in Tibet, never were. But do you really think that there was never any fighting art in a distant, hostile land? Or among a people who conquered an empire?

Thank you very much for your honest reply.

As a matter of fact I myself never believed in the possibility of nonexistence of martial arts in Tibet, especially, as you said, among very "rough" people.

Thank you again.

Regards,

Luca

[CharlesDaCosta]

I would say that Lion's Roar is the proclamation of the Dharma.

Most martial artists would find little meaning in that.

Yes, you are right, the same has to do with Dharma.

[CharlesDaCosta]

When the Buddha was born, he pointed one finger at the earth and one finger at heave and roared like a lion to announce his arrival

At least that's how the story goes ;)

For people whom Buddhism is intricately woven into their life, I could see "Lion's Roar" being used as a term for their martial art

There IS in Tibet an Lion's Roar sect

There are even Lion's Roar Sutras. Several of them. There are even emanations of the different Tibetan deities that are considered the Lion's Roar form so ...

[CharlesDaCosta]

Thank you very much for your honest reply.

As a matter of fact I myself never believed in the possibility of nonexistence of martial arts in Tibet, especially, as you said, among very "rough" people.

Thank you again.

Regards,

Luca

I have talked to a very important Lama about this. He told me that there were sports like horsemanship, wrestling, archery, and a few others. These were the sports of the day.

I spoke to another Lama (of lower rank- a Kempo) he told me that the martial arts learned in temples was and is very simple compared to what is done today.

I also goto the impression that the Dali Lama's body guards did not have their own style. They are just hired a man to do a job.

One thing does seem likely though. Tibetan Culture was heavily influence by India and Mongolia, sometimes I think even more than China. And when I traveled through China, even Hong Honk - I found that Martial Arts was not as popular as I had expected. Today it has become a cultural phenomena.

Therefore, I would assume that one of the other reasons there is not much info (only a legion) is because there never was that much info. Probably not many learned the style as a sport or business (when all these tings become important). It was just learning how to fight, like growing up in a big city full of dangerous people. You did not care about the "style."

[TenTigers]

that's cause they're Ninjas, dude...

[Jimbo]

There is a book out called The Last Lama Warrior; The Secret Martial Art of Tibet, by Yogi Tchouzar Pa. In the book, he refers to the art by its Tibetan name, Senguei Ngaro (Lion's Roar). I've only read a little bit so far. I would be interested to know what you guys think of the book, if you have it or seen it.

[lkfmdc]

There is a book out called The Last Lama Warrior; The Secret Martial Art of Tibet, by Yogi Tchouzar Pa. In the book, he refers to the art by its Tibetan name, Senguei Ngaro (Lion's Roar). I've only read a little bit so far. I would be interested to know what you guys think of the book, if you have it or seen it.

In NY right now, it's almost X-mas, it's cold and as we gather around the fireplace to roast marshmellows and make hot chocolate, we need something to burn. That book is good to get the logs started

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have Michael Staples book on Hop Gar, I don't mind it at all.

[lkfmdc]

Wasn't talking about Staples book....

Was talking about the fake tibetan monk, fake tibetan lion's roar, fake book
that one, the fake one

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wasn't talking about Staples book....

Was talking about the fake tibetan monk, fake tibetan lion's roar, fake book
that one, the fake one

I know, I was just saying that I have Staples and it's a good read.
One of very few tibetan MA book out there.

[chusauli]

Most old cultures have wrestling of some sort.

I know that Tibetan Medicine is a combination of Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. The main text of the 4 Tantras is very similar to the Ashtanga Hridaya... and Indian tradition of the 107 or 108 Marma points would have carried into Tibet.

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc. as taught in Lama, Bak Hok and Hap Ga of today, or something different. I know forms were made up when it came to Southern China...why else would there be so many sets?

Chan Tai Shan told me that different monks and different teachers took the basics and made up many different forms, and passed those on. The core sets being Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han, Siu Gum Gong, Dai Gum Gong, Tiet Lien, Chut Yap Bo, Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Mien Lui Jum...he taught these and a lot more. But the root of these was Chuen, Pao, Cup swinging like a toy drum like that seen in Karate Kid II...

[lkfmdc]

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc.



The "whirling arms" are found in Tibetan martial arts. They are also found in Indian martial art (kalari something, I can never spell it correctly). Also, the more you "muck around" in the footwork, there are things distinctly NOT Chinese in there




Chan Tai Shan told me that different monks and different teachers took the basics and made up many different forms, and passed those on. The core sets being Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han, Siu Gum Gong, Dai Gum Gong, Tiet Lien, Chut Yap Bo, Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Mien Lui Jum...he taught these and a lot more. But the root of these was Chuen, Pao, Cup swinging like a toy drum like that seen in Karate Kid II...

CTS had something like 18 to 20 different teachers and they all had different approaches and forms.

According to "legend" the original concepts were Fei Hok Sau, Neih Lahk Sau (Maitreya Buddha) and Do Lou Sau

Later the Gam Gong and Lo Han, both Buddhist concepts so that makes sense

But I honestly don't think that Wong Yan Lam and Wang Lam Hoi learned tons of sets, I think they learned a lot of concepts and movements and the sets came later

[taai gihk yahn]

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc. as taught in Lama, Bak Hok and Hap Ga of today, or something different.


The "whirling arms" are found in Tibetan martial arts.
also, as another point of reference for the "whirling arms", Sat (Hon) also teaches a series of movements from some "pure" Tibetian "qigong" that he learned (while on retreat at Karma Choling, I believe), which are all of that nature, including a sequence of movements that are so similar to a series of moves in CTS's Gam Gong Man Gung set that it's just uncanny (I mean, I can't imagine the point at which those two disparate sources of practice must have diverged, so to have that particular series preserved to that degree is pretty remarkable)


They are also found in Indian martial art (kalari something, I can never spell it correctly).
kalaripayattu; I still remember back at NYU, some woman called me up when we first advertised for "the club" ;), claiming to have studied this, and was interested in demoing it; of course, at the time, I had never heard of it, so was probably more than a little dismissive (especially as she referred to it as "martial dance", which it is, to a large extent), so she never came down, but in retrospect, I kick myself for the missed opportunity, seeing as pretty much no one in NY teaches it, and there is a lot of very cool "lin gung" stuff in it;

[lkfmdc]

kalaripayattu



yeah, that .....




I had never heard of it, so was probably more than a little dismissive



I am dismissive of stuff I've even heard of at this point ;)

[Gru Bianca]

In NY right now, it's almost X-mas, it's cold and as we gather around the fireplace to roast marshmellows and make hot chocolate, we need something to burn. That book is good to get the logs started

I fully quote you on that :D

[Gru Bianca]

Most old cultures have wrestling of some sort.

I know that Tibetan Medicine is a combination of Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. The main text of the 4 Tantras is very similar to the Ashtanga Hridaya... and Indian tradition of the 107 or 108 Marma points would have carried into Tibet.

The question is if the Original Lion's Roar (assuming there was such an art) has Chuen, Pao, Cup, etc. as taught in Lama, Bak Hok and Hap Ga of today, or something different. I know forms were made up when it came to Southern China...why else would there be so many sets?

Chan Tai Shan told me that different monks and different teachers took the basics and made up many different forms, and passed those on. The core sets being Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han, Siu Gum Gong, Dai Gum Gong, Tiet Lien, Chut Yap Bo, Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Mien Lui Jum...he taught these and a lot more. But the root of these was Chuen, Pao, Cup swinging like a toy drum like that seen in Karate Kid II...


Chan Tai San taught also Min loi Cham?

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1066702]also, as another point of reference for the "whirling arms", Sat (Hon) also teaches a series of movements from some "pure" Tibetian "qigong" that he learned (while on retreat at Karma Choling, I believe), which are all of that nature, including a sequence of movements that are so similar to a series of moves in CTS's Gam Gong Man Gung set that it's just uncanny (I mean, I can't imagine the point at which those two disparate sources of practice must have diverged, so to have that particular series preserved to that degree is pretty remarkable)


Very interesting info... food for thought...:)

[Gru Bianca]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B09zqMiA4k

I'm no expert of anything but to my eyes the similarities are more then the differences if we especially consider the very first person in the video.

[Jimbo]

In NY right now, it's almost X-mas, it's cold and as we gather around the fireplace to roast marshmellows and make hot chocolate, we need something to burn. That book is good to get the logs started

Thanks!
So it seems the only book references on Lama Pai/Bak Hok/Hop Gar that are any good (at least in English) are the ones by Michael P. Staples:
White Crane Kung Fu: Chinese(?) Art of Self- Defense.
Hop Gar Kung Fu.
Tibetan Kung Fu: The Way of the Monk.

[lkfmdc]

Thanks!
So it seems the only book references on Lama Pai/Bak Hok/Hop Gar that are any good (at least in English) are the ones by Michael P. Staples:
White Crane Kung Fu: Chinese(?) Art of Self- Defense.
Hop Gar Kung Fu.
Tibetan Kung Fu: The Way of the Monk.

Michale had access to good, very real people. There is the "oh that is not pak hok it is really hop ga" thing and a few errors, but certainly it is real stuff. Staples was also a very nice guy who wrote letters to one of my hing-dai (Laurette)

[lkfmdc]

Chan Tai San taught also Min loi Cham?

He taught the one white crane does and a "do lou sau" which is an older internal set

[Gru Bianca]

He taught the one white crane does and a "do lou sau" which is an older internal set

Thank you for the reply

[cerebus]

This is excellent! So much great information being contributed. Thanks you all very much! I am always interested in learning even more... :)

[lkfmdc]

This is excellent! So much great information being contributed. Thanks you all very much! I am always interested in learning even more... :)

quiet, we don't want anyone to know there is actual discussion going on here, especially not Gene!

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, oops. I'll try to whisper... :D Hey Sifu Ross, I was interested in hearing your opinion about the question I asked in another thread here in the Southern Kung Fu forum about the Hung Gar Tiger & Crane set being trained on it's own. Don't know if you saw that or if you even have an opinion on it, but if so I'd love to hear it. :)

[lkfmdc]

Heh, heh, oops. I'll try to whisper... :D Hey Sifu Ross, I was interested in hearing your opinion about the question I asked in another thread here in the Southern Kung Fu forum about the Hung Gar Tiger & Crane set being trained on it's own. Don't know if you saw that or if you even have an opinion on it, but if so I'd love to hear it. :)

There is certainly enough material in that set to practice just the contents of that set

Plus, most of the "old schools" were basicly one or two sets, but don't tell anyone that, they'll get upset

[cerebus]

Thanks! I'll keep it to myself... :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Tiger and crane can most certainly be a stand alone set for a complete system.
Most systems, like Dave mentioned really only had 1 or 2 sets to begin with and then they just added more ( or not) depending on the masters that came after.
Sometimes a teacher would already know a form or two from another system and add them to their new system because he felt they had same value, typically that form would have some modifications / variations.
Sanchin is a prime example.

[jdhowland]

CharlesDaCosta;1064819]One thing we do know for sure is that around "that time" (These styles were famous) the key players actually used each others techniques, and this was to a large extent. Therefore it would not matter if L and CLF came from the same system. They had merged on numerous points thus making them appear to be the same style to the untrained eye.

This makes sense. The idea that these systems merged to some degree is easier to accept than a family tree/common origin model.


I had spoke with a key player in PH. He told me my stances were too high. They should be more like Hung Gar stances. HG I thought ... how could this be, the Lama's system should have been a Chan Quan style. After all, it was supposed to have come from the north and our principles seem more northern ...

Well, do others agree that LS stance work should be more like HG...

No. Quentin Fong told me that most Bak Hok people originally trained in Hung Kyuhn and this influenced their style of teaching. He said that he was fortunate to have learned from Tang Jak Ming who learned only Ng Siu Jung's Bak Hok because it was a very "pure" form of the art. The stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width.

This is confirmed by Au Wing Nin's teaching. He was not only a senior student of Ng Siu Jung but also passed on an earlier form of Lama Kyuhn that he learned before becoming Ng's student. This style has the same characteristics.

[lkfmdc]

We could never do the lama sets in competition because all the judges were always hung ga guys who thought you had to have low stances

Low stances and Lama together make about as much sense as wacking off with sand paper

[sanjuro_ronin]

We could never do the lama sets in competition because all the judges were always hung ga guys who thought you had to have low stances

Low stances and Lama together make about as much sense as wacking off with sand paper

Kinky ******* !

[lkfmdc]

Kinky ******* !

says the guy who said he'd hit the trany

[chusauli]

There is certainly enough material in that set to practice just the contents of that set

Plus, most of the "old schools" were basicly one or two sets, but don't tell anyone that, they'll get upset

Completely true!

No need for a dozen or more sets. In many cases, 1 is already too many.

Lama's Siu Lo Han set is already very complete!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Completely true!

No need for a dozen or more sets. In many cases, 1 is already too many.

Lama's Siu Lo Han set is already very complete!

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

[CharlesDaCosta]

No. Quentin Fong told me that most Bak Hok people originally trained in Hung Kyuhn and this influenced their style of teaching. He said that he was fortunate to have learned from Tang Jak Ming who learned only Ng Siu Jung's Bak Hok because it was a very "pure" form of the art. The stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width.

This is confirmed by Au Wing Nin's teaching.

I think I know Quentin (or his nephew), he does Chen Taichi?

In the past, I was always taught that the stances tend to be high and just a little wider than shoulder-width too. Every place in the system I have ever been had high or very low stances (the Taiwanese version like to use the drop stance when doing blocks). So this was a shock.

I do know that many of the uncles I have met have crossed trained at some point. Two of my current teachers have done HG for almost 2 decades, then they switched to PH. But it is not these guys that told me to lower my stances.

Anyway, the info I got from a brother was that Children should be taught to use low stances to build up their leg strength, and then as young adults they can begin to be high.

In my case, I have always been told that I am a bad performer - even when I was the best student in the class. I am starting to compete now and "we" are considered to be a southern style - by the Mainland Chinese -

So, I better do what I have been told, at lease for a while, I am hoping the low stances will improve the look of my performance. I hope to be down there with the HG guys :-).

[CharlesDaCosta]

Kinky ******* !

No !!!!!!!!!!! Rough - would have to be into pain!!

[CharlesDaCosta]

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

I would have to agree ... less is better ... I already know more forms then I care to remember (12 I think). And most other PH sifus only know one I have been told.

I have been trying to learn all the PH routines because I had hoped they would show me the whole system. And at present, I really do not have a favorite, or one that touches my heart. So I keep hoping to learn a new one.

From my stand point, it would be better to learn one routine that has all the techniques in it. Then vary the way you do the routine based on the principles you are currently training. For example: we have the shooting, the powerful, the evasive, the seizing, and the soft. Then there is the stuff about controlling the forces involve in working circles fast.

[jdhowland]

CharlesDaCosta;1067818]I think I know Quentin (or his nephew), he does Chen Taichi?

That's right. His nephew, Bryant, helped to popularize modern wushu in the SF Bay area.

[chusauli]

My old HK sifu used to say that all one needs is a base form, and intermediate and an advanced for, more than that and spend too much time doing forms and not enough everything else.

Most of what is thought of as 'basic", "intermediate" and 'advanced" are stupid distinctions based on selling moves/sets.

For example:

Taking 3 seeds of Lama as Chuen, Pao and Kup, you can drill endlessly.

First you practice advancing - Chuen, Pao, Kup

Then you do the same retreating.

Then you do it in 8 directions, left right, high, middle and low.
Then add kicks as your footwork, along with leg sweeps, iron brooms, etc.

Then do combos:

Chuen - Chuen
Chuen - Pao
Chuen - Kup

Pao - Chuen
Pao - Pao
Pao - Chuen

Kup - Chuen
Kup - Pao
Kup - Kup

Then add the footwork as described above. Then do more complex combos:

Chuen - Pao - Kup
Pao - Chuen - Kup
Kup - Pao - Chuen, etc. (i hope you've go the idea.)

For $19.99 and your CC, I will send you a blue belt certificate in the mail after you videotape yourself doing this on youtube. LOL!

My point is even a simple set like PH's Luk Lik Kuen can be enough for a lifetime.

And you like to make up a set with the above moves, just have a Lama salutation at the opening and closing, and you've got your own set. Yours is as good as any "traditional" set, maybe better because you found one that suited you and was tailored for you.

And as I see it, David Ross' San Da/MMA stuff is the same as above, but hidden in plain view... :)

That is the way the old martial arts are.

[Gru Bianca]

...........................
I have been trying to learn all the PH routines because I had hoped they would show me the whole system.
.

:D I think they call that fat hope....:p

[lkfmdc]

And as I see it, David Ross' San Da/MMA stuff is the same as above, but hidden in plain view... :)

That is the way the old martial arts are.

You guys are always letting the cat out of the bag :mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of what is thought of as 'basic", "intermediate" and 'advanced" are stupid distinctions based on selling moves/sets.

Context Robert.
One can easily see Sanchin as beginner, fu hok as intermediate and Iron wire as advanced.
Of course one cans also see doing Sanchin in of itself in a beginner, intermediate and advanced way so sometimes it is not to moves but what is done with them.
Point being that there is nothing wrong with those categories.
But I do agree that more often than not, it is simple a "money grab" or a "lineage grab".

[chusauli]

You guys are always letting the cat out of the bag :mad:

Ooops sorry!

I personally got tired of trying to practice all of the forms Chan Tai Shan taught me. It was just too much with that, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, WCK, etc. I need more lifetimes to do that.

And application is the proper way. One has to develop their own game.

[lkfmdc]

Ooops sorry!

I personally got tired of trying to practice all of the forms Chan Tai Shan taught me. It was just too much with that, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, WCK, etc. I need more lifetimes to do that.

And application is the proper way. One has to develop their own game.

I have come to see it this way, by doing all those sets (and I stopped learning new sets at one point, I said "enough"!) I did the movements thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of times. I also learned movement, watching and copying movement....

At this point, whether I remember a set sequence or not is irrelevant. It is the skill and application

My biggest gripe about sets is, today who has that time? I dropped out of school and spent 7 days a week with CTS, hours every day. So of course I had time... but who does that really?

[Dale Dugas]

I agree with Dave, forms are not meant to be learned just to learn the form but the principles within the forms are much more important.

If students can extrapolate the concepts/principles, so much the better. But some people have a tough time with this.

[cerebus]

I have come to see it this way, by doing all those sets (and I stopped learning new sets at one point, I said "enough"!) I did the movements thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of times. I also learned movement, watching and copying movement....

At this point, whether I remember a set sequence or not is irrelevant. It is the skill and application

My biggest gripe about sets is, today who has that time? I dropped out of school and spent 7 days a week with CTS, hours every day. So of course I had time... but who does that really?

That's one of the reasons I am usually interested in knowing which sets people think of as the "primary" or most important in a given system. I like the idea of choosing 3 empty-hand sets and maybe 5 primary weapons sets so as to preserve the traditional art, and then spend the rest of training time developing skill in the application of the art and it's principles and using realistic training methods (full-contact sparring). I've long felt that this would strengthen the Chinese arts greatly.

[cerebus]

I agree with Dave, forms are not meant to be learned just to learn the form but the principles within the forms are much more important.

If students can extrapolate the concepts/principles, so much the better. But some people have a tough time with this.

Yup! +1 :)

[lkfmdc]

That's one of the reasons I am usually interested in knowing which sets people think of as the "primary" or most important in a given system. I like the idea of choosing 3 empty-hand sets and maybe 5 primary weapons sets so as to preserve the traditional art, and then spend the rest of training time developing skill in the application of the art and it's principles and using realistic training methods (full-contact sparring). I've long felt that this would strengthen the Chinese arts greatly.

Siu Lo Han (in CTS line) pretty much has everything you could want in martial arts, the basic punches, elbows, knees, front kicks, side kicks, back kicks

The footwork

The throws

You probably could learn more clinching and some in-fighting from Fu Hok Seung Daau

There are more kicks and kick combination in Lo Han Kyuhn

But again, at this point, if I didn't remember those sets, I'd still have all their contents at this point, it's all in my brain

[cerebus]

Excellent.

[chusauli]

I agree with David. The Siu Lo Han, Fu Hoc Cern Doe and Lo Han Kuen were amongst CTS' best sets and didn't have too many crazy things in them that were out there.

CTS taught it based on your abilities and what suited you. I remember learning Dae Saat from CTS, all the acrobatic ground fist, kicks and sweeps were a bit over my gymnastic ability. As a result, that one is history.

Of course, there is no guarantee CTS ever taught the same form twice. ;) But that's another story....

...the old generation didn't have any set forms... sometimes you felt they were just making stuff up at the moment or they had to refer to their own Kuen Po to get it. And I am not the only one saying this, you can look at practitioners of other large systems and see sometimes the inheritors just have to piece the sets together. You learn like this in CLF, Ba Gua, Northern Fist, Eagle Claw, Mantis, etc.

[YouKnowWho]

I like the idea of choosing 3 empty-hand sets and maybe 5 primary weapons sets so as to preserve the traditional art,

We did this in the Longfist system. Longfist has too many forms. We divide Longfist as

Plum Flower Longfist:

Tantui -> Shi Zi Tang -> Taizu longfist

Muslium Longfist:

Tantui -> Pao Chuan #3 ->Zha Chuan #4

5 weapons are, Dao, Jian, staff, spear, and Guan Dao.

[lkfmdc]

Of course, there is no guarantee CTS ever taught the same form twice. ;) But that's another story....



I was with CTS like 16 years, I watched him teach a lot of people. For example I watched him teach 5 versions of Dai Lo Han.... the thing was, they had the same key points, all had the same opening and closing... all had certain techniques and combinations...

What was not the same, and didn't matter, were the exact sequences, one guys move #57 may be different than the other guys, but everyone that did Dai Lo Han learned the lihn waan chyhn dah, the dai siu kau, bouh chouh cham seh into kaph, etc....

[taai gihk yahn]

I was with CTS like 16 years, I watched him teach a lot of people. For example I watched him teach 5 versions of Dai Lo Han.... the thing was, they had the same key points, all had the same opening and closing... all had certain techniques and combinations...

What was not the same, and didn't matter, were the exact sequences, one guys move #57 may be different than the other guys, but everyone that did Dai Lo Han learned the lihn waan chyhn dah, the dai siu kau, bouh chouh cham seh into kaph, etc....

I think that this is the key point - and in a way, one we missed to some degree early on when we'd argue about who got the "correct" version of something or some such - as you say, it's not so much the sequence as it is the particular set of principles; of course, not everyone got to learn 6 versions of "bik da" either...

[lkfmdc]

Also, as Robert alluded to, not everyone got an "A version" either... CTS taught you what you wanted, but at the level you were actually at.. some people asked for so called "advanced sets" and got very basic stuff with a nice name attached...

But I digress

[jdhowland]

Cheuk Tse was very conservative in passing on the sets. Kept the same sequence always. All were straight line forms, no cross patterns. No "chambering" of the fist at the waist that you find in some versions that have a strong Hung Kyuhn influence. He didn't confuse his CLF or Eagle Claw with Lama but taught them as separate entities.

Even so, what you learned from him was based upon how well he knew and trusted you. The students who were only there because their parents made them come stayed in the back of the room and followed along as best they could. Those who were really committed to training were taught additional moves or variations within the sets. The "core" students were shown variations within the footwork or hand positions that were different from the way the set was done in group practice. We were all supposed to practice the sets the same way in group training but keep the additions for ourselves. I think he really enjoyed teaching and passing on what he knew but didn't want to be bothered with those who weren't really dedicated.

He told us a story about how someone payed him a lot of money to learn an authentic Chinese staff set. Cheuk agreed but on condition that the man never ask him about it again after he had learned it. Of course, this was because he made it up as he went and wouldn't remember it. The man got what he wanted--a set by an authentic Chinese teacher and Cheuk was happy to take his money.

[chusauli]

Also, as Robert alluded to, not everyone got an "A version" either... CTS taught you what you wanted, but at the level you were actually at.. some people asked for so called "advanced sets" and got very basic stuff with a nice name attached...

But I digress

Yup. Agree completely. Thy old man had variations upon variations of each set, and could also make up things on the spot.

But as David said, "the thing was, they had the same key points, all had the same opening and closing... all had certain techniques and combinations...", some were done in different order or juxtaposition, but CTS best teaching to me was often repeated, "Sau Lei, Gung fu is ging, ging is gung fu!"

[taai gihk yahn]

CTS best teaching to me was often repeated, "Sau Lei, Gung fu is ging, ging is gung fu!"
in other words: "If u r a mean-tempered, bad-asz MF'er, u will b an effective fighter regardless of what u hav studied."
I think that pretty much sums him up; that and "Guns r better than gung-fu when fighting more than one person."

[lkfmdc]

in other words: "If u r a mean-tempered, bad-asz MF'er, u will b an effective fighter regardless of what u hav studied."
I think that pretty much sums him up; that and "Guns r better than gung-fu when fighting more than one person."

B4 ur time, but when I first met CTS he had explosives in a briefcase he carried with him. Of course, in your time he carried those combat steel butterfly knives with him, IE he was a kung fu boyscout, always prepared ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

in other words: "If u r a mean-tempered, bad-asz MF'er, u will b an effective fighter regardless of what u hav studied."
I think that pretty much sums him up; that and "Guns r better than gung-fu when fighting more than one person."

That is true kung fu and it is very strong !!

[chusauli]

The old man was something else. :) He used to wear a whip chain as his belt.

I miss him.

[TenTigers]

The old man was something else. :) He used to wear a whip chain as his belt.

I miss him.
you realize, when we're older, people will be talking about us the same way.

[darkie1973]

I think that this is the key point - and in a way, one we missed to some degree early on when we'd argue about who got the "correct" version of something or some such - as you say, it's not so much the sequence as it is the particular set of principles;

Yeh,.... I've had similar experiences; I studied with my Si-baht, Ron Dong for a time (he did the technique demos in Mike Staples White Crane book), and most off his students at the time were ragging on my training brother and myself about how we did our sets wrong,.... course, none of them had been doing White Crane for nearly as long as we had, none of them had access to all of the sets that Chan Hak-fu had passed to our sifu,....and (really, of any real importance) none of them could friggin' fight! The thing is, Ron and the few of his old-school students that had been around to learn directly from George Long like my sifu and Ron had, knew my sifu and sihings 'pedigree' and abilities. It didn't take Ron long to determine what my abilities were; consequently, he didn't waste time trying to change moves in sets with me, but in working on my fighting ability: techiques, application variations, timing/distance, and combat strategy. Something else a bit funny,..... someone mentioned Bryant Fong? My Sihing was on the SF wushu team during the mid-late 80's/early 90's during the 'wushu hey-day.' Bryant used to give my si-hing **** about his White Crane at the time too,.... which is ironic, cause Bryant was already drinking the 'wushu-is-the-future-of-chinese-martial-arts' koolaid by that time.

[jdhowland]

you realize, when we're older, people will be talking about us the same way.

I already talk about you that way!

We are rapidly becoming the old generation, dude.

[chusauli]

you realize, when we're older, people will be talking about us the same way.

Nah, they'll be saying that old **** was a pain in the ass! He tortured me!

[TenTigers]

Nah, they'll be saying that old **** was a pain in the ass! He tortured me!
well yeah, we have said that about you...There was always the meeting before a "Robert Chu Seminar," where the noobs had to be primed:
"Never, NEVER ask anything like, "Are you sure that technique really works?"
(sigh) ahh...the good ol'days....

[Violent Designs]

One of my friends told me Robert Chu threw him about 5 feet backwards with a rising bong sao (or something like that).

Made me laugh pretty hard.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Most of what is thought of as 'basic", "intermediate" and 'advanced" are stupid distinctions based on selling moves/sets.

There is another side to this. Sometimes it is just the way your teacher teaches. Sometimes it is just the best way to package the information, the easiest way for you to learn it.

If you have not learned Algebra, it would not be the best approach to jump right in to something like Applied Trig.

However the material you presented ... I could see your point about that kind of division.

[CharlesDaCosta]

:D I think they call that fat hope....:p

That depends on who your teachers are and your own effort. Not hope, just hard work, and knowledgeable teachers.

[CharlesDaCosta]

That's right. His nephew, Bryant, helped to popularize modern wushu in the SF Bay area.

He switch from Chen? At one time I had planned to join another organization but he had talked me out of it so I am still in PH.

[CharlesDaCosta]

I agree with Dave, forms are not meant to be learned just to learn the form but the principles within the forms are much more important.

If students can extrapolate the concepts/principles, so much the better. But some people have a tough time with this.

You are right, the purpose of the forms are to introduce you to (1) a few new techniques, (2) new ways of executing old techniques, (3) review, (4) to challenge your memory, .....

If you want to be a fighter than the forms only point a way ....

If you want to be an artist than the forms not only point a way, they give you a masterpiece to train coping, .... until you are the expert, the master of your own house, the artist.

[Gru Bianca]

That depends on who your teachers are and your own effort. Not hope, just hard work, and knowledgeable teachers.

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....;)
Not talking about the quality some more......

Merry Christmas

[CharlesDaCosta]

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....;)
Not talking about the quality some more......

Merry Christmas

OK, I do understand your problem. But for me it is just a lot of hard work.

[Gru Bianca]

OK, I do understand your problem. But for me it is just a lot of hard work.

No, you do not understand.... that's not a problem I have.....:)...

[jdhowland]

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....;)
Not talking about the quality some more......

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

[Gru Bianca]

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

I agree with you. :)

[chusauli]

well yeah, we have said that about you...There was always the meeting before a "Robert Chu Seminar," where the noobs had to be primed:
"Never, NEVER ask anything like, "Are you sure that technique really works?"
(sigh) ahh...the good ol'days....

LOL! Who me?

[chusauli]

One of my friends told me Robert Chu threw him about 5 feet backwards with a rising bong sao (or something like that).

Made me laugh pretty hard.

That's not Bong Sao, but the body structure and momentum!

[chusauli]

Does any one know the differences in cts lama vs. Chen Keun Ng lama? The form I learned from lama looks similar but different compared to what I have seen on clips of ctc students.

Is there any footage of Chan Kuen Ng or students doing sets available? I'd like to see.

[lkfmdc]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

[Gru Bianca]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

Mr. Ross,

do you have any idea on who were the Lama Pai teachers of Au Wing Nam before he became a NgSiu Chung students?

Thanks

[CharlesDaCosta]

No, you do not understand.... that's not a problem I have.....:)...

You are right, I don't!!

[CharlesDaCosta]

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

Among the people that know the system, the talk is not sets, it is Techniques.

I have been connected to three to 4 different students of Ng (or grandmasters to some) and none of their students I have met ever claims 64 routines in their lines. I have herd of one claiming 64 techniques!

But I do not claim to know every thing so .....

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=CharlesDaCosta: I have been connected to three to 4 different students of Ng (or grandmasters to some) and none of their students I have met ever claims 64 routines in their lines. I have herd of one claiming 64 techniques!.....[/QUOTE]

Didn't mean to imply that Ng prescribed this many sets to anyone as a proper representation of his system--just that he knew that many and taught some of them. When the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Federation came up with 24 standardized sets they were trying to preserve a good portion of this material, but it was still too much for today's students. I see their work as more of a conservation effort for historical purposes than a workable system.

My teacher learned directly from Ng Siu Jung, and also from Au Wing Nin. He never taught more than 14 Pak Hok sets. There is a huge disparity in the number of sets taught among various "Lama" schools, from none to thirty-plus. The approach you take depends on your values. I understand the desire to preserve an art as well as the need to pare it down for practical use. When we asked my teacher to share his opinion of who was "good" we would suggest a name and he would sometimes reply, "He teaches sets." This didn't sound like a put-down but seemed to imply that the man was not considered a fighter.

[CharlesDaCosta]

... Ng ... knew ... many and taught some of them. When the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Federation came up with 24 standardized sets they were trying to preserve a good portion of this material, but it was still too much for today's students. I see their work as more of a conservation effort for historical purposes than a workable system.

... There is a huge disparity in the number of sets taught among various "Lama" schools, from none to thirty-plus. The approach you take depends on your values. I understand the desire to preserve an art as well as the need to pare it down for practical use.

When we asked my teacher ... reply, "He teaches sets." This didn't sound like a put-down but seemed to imply that the man was not considered a fighter.

I heard all this too. Ng like most back then was collecting, even from other systems like HG, and inventing new ones to counter what he saw in others.

And the Standard 24 sets is what I have been trying to learn (I assume they contain all the Pak Hok Techniques). And I have herd of PH teacher who have even more sets.

I have also herd of the "fighter or Performer" label. So I understood where you were coming from, and agree with you. I just enjoyed the discussion.

I even have a "fat hope" to deal with - My teacher is dissatisfied with the way I preform and I am starting to forget, so he told all of his brothers to stop teaching me new routines; So, I have to figure out how to convince them to continue. But he did open a door for me to learn from another line so I am also a little confused :-][.

Now, my motivation:

The Secrets in Pak Hok are the techniques or basics, some would say. If you look at all the routines, you will find that they are just repeating techniques with small modifications.

I want to make sure I learn all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed. If there is one, two or three routines with all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed, I would stop and just learn them. No one is alluding to this being a possibility, so I want to collect what is really important and put it in one routine and drop all the others (At least for my training). And no, I am not a fighter, at least not until I am fighting!

[CharlesDaCosta]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

What was that principle about circles: "Follow, Reverse, Come off, ..." I can't remember the rest?

[Gru Bianca]

I guess it's tough to really say exactly how many sets there are in Pak Hok Pai; it is true that more often then not the same techniques are repeated been those the core techniques, however, based on what I've seen, each set presents a little piece of additional information that wasn't there before, been it a different footwork, a different combo, a new technique etc..etc... which I think would just lead to a new way of interpreting what was already acquired.
Some people are very smart (usually those that leave a sign behind long after they are gone) and quick to elaborate and find important keys way before certain inputs are given, many others are not and that's why I think be exposed to different sets might be useful to open and broaden the mind.

Also another part of the system that I believe is equally important as the basic techniques are are the methods of "strength and power" generation, the propaedeutical exercises that should go along with the sets.

Just a thought.

Regards

[unyma]

I want to make sure I learn all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed. If there is one, two or three routines with all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed, I would stop and just learn them. No one is alluding to this being a possibility, so I want to collect what is really important and put it in one routine and drop all the others

It seems to me that if you learn the basics what you're actually learning is how to move and maintain proper structure and mechanics. If you've learned that properly you don't need to learn each and every set that contains each and every possible move from any angle. You're structure will be correct and you can use your technique efficiently. As you said, they're the same techniques with small modifications

Just my thoughts

[darkie1973]

It seems to me that if you learn the basics what you're actually learning is how to move and maintain proper structure and mechanics. If you've learned that properly you don't need to learn each and every set that contains each and every possible move from any angle. You're structure will be correct and you can use your technique efficiently. As you said, they're the same techniques with small modifications

I totally agree,... the longer you've been doing Pak Hok, and IF you give thought to it, without regards to the art of the form, but purely in terms of the application of techniques from a fighting stand point, you start to see a lot of technique cross over. As an example: from kup choi, to fan gok choi, to sow choi, to gok choi,... in terms of angle of attack there's plenty of crossover,... just slight adjustment of hand position, maybe forearm position and perhaps some shoulder rotation and elbow flexion (forget about kwa, bin, or pek preceding for a moment,) and on a rudimentary level, the techniques don't differ that much from one another. When you learn the hook and overhand in boxing,.... they call it a hook and overhand; now there may be MANY different ways (hand positions, angles of attack, ways to generate power, how wide or tight they apply and when), and different coaches/trainers may favor certain ways to teach them,.... but they still just call them: hook and overhand. The poetic chinese on the otherhand (ever read the Art of War? It's a manual on how to succeed at winning a war,... THAT READS LIKE A FRIGGIN' POEM!) decided that every little variation needs its own name. And then its own form. Any now we've got a hundred sets. Basic techniques and Principles are where it's at for me now,.... still love the sets,... but more for the sake of ART.

[CharlesDaCosta]

... based on what I've seen, each set presents a little piece of additional information that wasn't there before, be it: a different footwork, a different combo, a new technique etc..etc...

which I think would just lead to a new way of interpreting what was already acquired.

Some people are very smart ... and quick to elaborate and find important keys way before certain inputs are given, many others are not and that's why I think be exposed to different sets might be useful to open and broaden the mind.

Also another part of the system that I believe is equally important as the basic techniques are are the methods of "strength and power" generation, the propaedeutical exercises that should go along with the sets.

" ... a new way of interpreting what was already acquired."

Yes if I had just one routine, I would practice it several ways, each way would be based on one of our characteristics or principles. Fore example, we have 4 characteristics that have evolved into principles that define the way we execute our techniques:

Fast and Furious (continuous striking)
Targeted and Powerful (single strike kill is the goal)
Seizing and Paralyzing (grabbing)
Soft and Flexible (Empty and Evasive)
Low and High coordinate planes
Attack limb or truck (including head & neck)
Attack both limb and truck at the same time

I would do the one routine different ways, based on the above list. This would eliminate the need for having a different routine for each principle and principle deviations. Thus putting less strain on the memory and improving/shorting the time it will take to make the techniques instinctive (better approach for fighters).

There are certain technique combos that are considered core (e.g., pek-sau, dan-cup, bean-chow, dow-pow, etc.) they would have to be present.

May be we should use the rest of this thread to try to iron out what are the core techniques and principles, and how they could be put into a single routine.

[CharlesDaCosta]

I totally agree,... a lot of technique cross over. ... The poetic Chinese on the other hand ... decided that every little variation needs its own name. And then its own form. Any now we've got a hundred sets. Basic techniques and Principles are where it's at for me now,.... still love the sets,... but more for the sake of ART.

I would agree too 100%. Technique crossover exist because there are only so many ways you can throw a punch"."

But in Pak Hok, we say the basic are the real secret. For this reason, techniques and principles other than the seed fists are taught through routines. So if you want to at least see all the techniques, you need to see all the routines I think !!! or at least enough routines.

I have learned something like 14 routines, and I still don't know all the palm, elbow, and finger strikes, nor that much grabbing. I am sure there are more kicks and punches than I have seen so far too.

I could just make up my own stuff - This would be a lot easier; but then I could not call it "my family's" Pak Hok Pai, I would have to call it "Charles' Pak Hok" or something like that.

Another approach is for us to discuss what we have learned, extract what we think is "it." We then each go back to our teachers and see what they have to say.

I thinK Pak Hok needs another modernization. The days of the bad-ass are almost over, and those that are left would rather use something like a gun or ... rather than .... so the need for some secrets have disappeared.

[unyma]

But in Pak Hok, we say the basic are the real secret. For this reason, techniques and principles other than the seed fists are taught through routines. So if you want to at least see all the techniques, you need to see all the routines I think !!! or at least enough routines.

I see your point but I'm not sure I agree. Once you've learned the principles, and I'm not minimizing the effort it takes to learn and incorporate principles, the techniques take care of themselves. In my view, techniques flow from principles not the other way around. You've learned 14 routines, I'd venture to say you've done many grabs and pokes and punches and elbows. The principles would allow you to figure out how an elbow strike or finger poke would or would not work from wherever you are. You don't have to see it in a routine anymore.

Again, just my thoughts.

[darkie1973]

I could just make up my own stuff - This would be a lot easier; but then I could not call it "my family's" Pak Hok Pai, I would have to call it "Charles' Pak Hok" or something like that.

How do you think we got so many forms? Each generation of teacher would take it upon himself to catalogue what they thought was their own unique way of combining techniques or applying principles. Anatomically, there's only so many things you can do with the human body. It's only within the last century or so that TCMA's have gotten so precious with the forms. "If it's not in the form,... then it's not part of the system,... then I can't use it!" I mean,...


I have learned something like 14 routines, and I still don't know all the palm, elbow, and finger strikes, nor that much grabbing. I am sure there are more kicks and punches than I have seen so far too.

...what more do think you can do with a palm,elbow, or finger strike?! I'm afraid that (respectfully) I am going to have disagree as well. Also, as Unyma has stated,.... I don't think that there are any 'principles' to be learned in the forms,... that is to say,... there is no direct connection as far as learning is concerned from 'form' to 'principle.'

Be Ruthless,... Be Evasive,.... Penetrate defenses,.... Intercept techniques. Bend your knees,.... torque your waist,.... relax your body,.... whip your limbs. SHHH!!,... I just gave you the secret right there!

[CharlesDaCosta]

But in Pak Hok, we say the basic are the real secret. For this reason, techniques and principles other than the seed fists are taught through routines. So if you want to at least see all the techniques, you need to see all the routines I think !!! or at least enough routines.

I see your point but I'm not sure I agree. Once you've learned the principles, and I'm not minimizing the effort it takes to learn and incorporate principles, the techniques take care of themselves. In my view, techniques flow from principles not the other way around. You've learned 14 routines, I'd venture to say you've done many grabs and pokes and punches and elbows. The principles would allow you to figure out how an elbow strike or finger poke would or would not work from wherever you are. You don't have to see it in a routine anymore.

Again, just my thoughts.

Good point - if Pak hok was a system of principles and not techniques.

I have learned that the principles drive the techniques (give them power), and we have collections of techniques. Therefore you need both.

I was taught techniques first, then when I was considered good, I started learning the principles behind the techniques. Other than that I would agree with you.

A few years ago I went to my school in HK, one of my uncles saw me doing Coperia. He did not consider it Pak hok, this was even though it follows the same principles for the most part (at least I was following Pak Hok Principles). But we do not have a lot of the Techniques I did.

[CharlesDaCosta]

How do you think we got so many forms? Each generation of teacher would take it upon himself to catalogue what they thought was their own unique way of combining techniques or applying principles. Anatomically, there's only so many things you can do with the human body. It's only within the last century or so that TCMA's have gotten so precious with the forms. "If it's not in the form,... then it's not part of the system,... then I can't use it!" I mean,...


Yes, I understand and normally I would agree with you; but the issue here is I want to master the system, and it would be .... if I had not at least learned all the standard routines before jumping off into my own direction and claiming to be a Master of Pak Hok.



...what more do think you can do with a palm,elbow, or finger strike?! I'm afraid that (respectfully) I am going to have disagree as well. Also, as Unyma has stated,.... I don't think that there are any 'principles' to be learned in the forms,... that is to say,... there is no direct connection as far as learning is concerned from 'form' to 'principle.'


This is not a question of if I could do more with an elbow. The issue is do I have all the grammar (principles) and words & phrases (techniques) to say I have all of the style. And, sometimes you don't think of everything. Learning a new routine gives you something different. Therefore before I claim to have known it all, I need to have at least seen "it all!"

Actually, there is a direct connection as far as learning is concerned from 'form' to 'principle.' A good example would be "Needle in Cotton." It depend on your teacher if you learn the principles first or the technique groups first. But they do go together. At least this is how I am being taught (there is a right and a wrong way to do a routine).



Be Ruthless,... Be Evasive,.... Penetrate defenses,.... Intercept techniques. Bend your knees,.... torque your waist,.... relax your body,.... whip your limbs. SHHH!!,... I just gave you the secret right there!

If that was it, Pak hok would look like a lot of other systems --- take some styles of karate. Some Karate styles do the four things extremely well. Yes there is more to Pak Hok than that.

[darkie1973]

This is not a question of if I could do more with an elbow. The issue is do I have all the grammar (principles) and words & phrases (techniques) to say I have all of the style. And, sometimes you don't think of everything. Learning a new routine gives you something different. Therefore before I claim to have known it all, I need to have at least seen "it all!"

Seems akin to me of saying that you cannot attain a Masters Degree in English,... if you don't know the definition of EVERY WORD IN THE DICTIONARY. I understand your point,... but even the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Assc. set about condensing the forms in the late 80's/early 90's because there is a lot of repetion within the sets. I've got about 18 sets myself (not including the variations of Luk Lek Kuen), but there comes a point when you ask yourself (at least I did,) have I truly 'mastered' any of what I have,.... or am I just looking for more stuff to 'collect.' :o

[CharlesDaCosta]

Seems akin to me of saying that you cannot attain a Masters Degree in English,... if you don't know the definition of EVERY WORD IN THE DICTIONARY.

You do not have to learn every word in the Dictionary to get the degree; however, you do have to know enough. So the question is, "when is it enough?" Well this is usually predetermined. Now if you want to honestly claim that you know every word in a Dictionary, then by God you should know all them. What I am talking about is knowing Pak Hok under my line. They say we have 24 routines, Therefore to know the "Complete" Pak hok you should have learned the 24 routines.


I understand your point,... but even the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Assc. set about condensing the forms in the late 80's/early 90's because there is a lot of repetition within the sets.

Yes, they ended up with 24 routines to define the system. And, only a few members learned all 24, and a lesser number also included others they liked.

Plus, those that decided on the 24 routines took the time to learn all of the older ones before they took it upon themselves to repackage the system into just 24 routines.

This is exactly what I am planning: Learn first then change (reduce) it after.


I've got about 18 sets myself (not including the variations of Luk Lek Kuen), but there comes a point when you ask yourself (at least I did,) have I truly 'mastered' any of what I have,.... or am I just looking for more stuff to 'collect.' :o

Agree with you 100%, been there a long time ago. I was told that I had enough to go off in my own direction a while ago. But, then I began to meet people that have been through all the routines. I just would like to be one of them. And yes, a lot gets forgotten. I have been told that each routine offers something different. It could be as simple as a new kick or as complex as a change to the way you deliver power. This is why I want to learn all the routines.

Bottom line:

I do not want to have to speculate what is and what is not the style according to a given line.
Right now I do not really care to "master" any specific techs or routines; I only want to be honest when I say I have learned the whole system; Now, I do not have to be good at it (I only do it for health).


I see martial arts like any other subject - There is a set of core or basic material that the intermediate and advance stuff is built on. And then there are specialties. Many claim there are just 3 to 4 routines that make up the core of the system, and the rest is either preparation or like icing on a cake. Now, it has been declared that the system has 24 routines. I do not see the harm in learning what is the current system in its entirety before considering any changes.

Maybe a more useful discussion would be: "How could we repackage the system?"

[darkie1973]

They say we have 24 routines, Therefore to know the "Complete" Pak hok you should have learned the 24 routines.



Okay,.... gotcha. That i can agree upon,.... I think I felt that you were out to learn "every pak hok set that was ever formulated." Should I go back and read the entire thread again?! :o LOL!

[Gru Bianca]

I think what motivates many in wanting to know more sets it's also a deep love for the art; to nourish the art not only for the martial purpose of it but also for the artistic aspect of it (and i am not referring to the beauty of a performance)

[friday]

Hi Gru Bianca

Happy New Year! :) just popped into HK again for some training. Hows things?

you can send me a pm.

Thx
Friday

[CharlesDaCosta]

I think what motivates many in wanting to know more sets it's also a deep love for the art; to nourish the art not only for the martial purpose of it but also for the artistic aspect of it (and i am not referring to the beauty of a performance)

you got it!

[jdhowland]

...Tibetans are not the most forthright people, some will tell you there are no martial arts in Tibet, never were. But do you really think that there was never any fighting art in a distant, hostile land? Or among a people who conquered an empire?

Rereading this thread, I was struck by this comment and it reminded me of a conversation I once had with a Tibetan.

WARNING: The following contains another one of JD's anecdotes thrown in shamelessly to keep this thread alive.

I used to live with a Kagyupa Lama. One day at breakfast we talked about the different military strategies used by Asian and western cultures. Lama Rinchen pointed out that the western approach was to flaunt military capabilities. The Soviet May Day parades and highly visible military exercises typify the "western" approach.

"But in Asia" he said, "we say: 'Oh, we are so poor! So poor! We have nothing! We cannot hurt anyone.' While knowing that there are many caves in the mountains containing missiles."

The way he said this made me think there was something he approved of in the "Asian" approach. Even the dharma is not always taught in a straight forward manner. There is often something of the "Come, let the masters guide you and eventually it will become clear" about Tibetan Buddhism. To those of us more influenced by the Age of Enlightenment this can be distasteful, but I have learned to appreciate the oriental taste for hyperbole and aggrandizement that exists in religion and kung fu as much as anything else. Just know it for what it is.

[Shaolindynasty]

The folowing video is an example of some of the Hop Ga Traininng at my school. The 1st form is called lohan Kuen. Its very similar sequentially to the form siu lohan kuen that i've see the deng hop ga lineage do. The apps and fighting drill is the video are based on the techniques and concepts in that form. The techniques at the end are a section of the form che sin kuen.

Hop Ga Kuen/ Lama Pai Kung Fu forms & fighting drills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmsr_5V62eU


Here is a video of my student doing the form Lohan Kuen.

Hop Ga/lama Pai Lohan Kuen
http://youtu.be/2uNtH8Caru8

[Frost]

The folowing video is an example of some of the Hop Ga Traininng at my school. The 1st form is called lohan Kuen. Its very similar sequentially to the form siu lohan kuen that i've see the deng hop ga lineage do. The apps and fighting drill is the video are based on the techniques and concepts in that form. The techniques at the end are a section of the form che sin kuen.

Hop Ga Kuen/ Lama Pai Kung Fu forms & fighting drills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmsr_5V62eU


Here is a video of my student doing the form Lohan Kuen.

Hop Ga/lama Pai Lohan Kuen
http://youtu.be/2uNtH8Caru8

very nice thanks for sharing

[taichi4eva]

hi Shaolindynasty,

May I ask what che sin kuen translates to?

would you consider posting your version of fu hok seung dau in the future?

Thanks

[RisingCrane]

ShaolinDynasty:
Nice video! I like how you train the fighting techniques: from movement and angles rather than in a 'dead' manner. You have some nice moves and I practise similarly with body movement, stepping etc. very good!

The set at the end that you call 'che sin' is a section of Deng Family 'Dai Lohan'. If your other set is 'Fu Hok Serng Dow' then it is three main sets of Deng Family. No other lineages play those sets.

People have been saying how many sets there are in White Crane/Lama/Hap Gar but when Wong Yan Lum came to Canton there were no sets as we know them today, rather concepts, exercises, techniques and training methods. It was his students that organised them into sets. This was more recent than people like to admit- not more than 150 years ago.

Anyway- good to see people like you performing with proper martial intent but be assured that it is Deng Si Hap Gar ;)

Best wishes,
David

[CLFNole]

Good stuff SD...by the way how much hop gar does your sifu have incorporated into his curriculum? We have some northern stuff incorporated in ours through Shek Kin. I am guess To Hon Jeung learned some Hop Gar or does it go back to Fong Yuk Shu?

[Shaolindynasty]

hi Shaolindynasty,

May I ask what che sin kuen translates to?

would you consider posting your version of fu hok seung dau in the future?

Thanks


Che Sin kuen (pulling wire fist) and I will be posting more videos in the future so we will see


ShaolinDynasty:
Nice video! I like how you train the fighting techniques: from movement and angles rather than in a 'dead' manner. You have some nice moves and I practise similarly with body movement, stepping etc. very good!

The set at the end that you call 'che sin' is a section of Deng Family 'Dai Lohan'. If your other set is 'Fu Hok Serng Dow' then it is three main sets of Deng Family. No other lineages play those sets.

People have been saying how many sets there are in White Crane/Lama/Hap Gar but when Wong Yan Lum came to Canton there were no sets as we know them today, rather concepts, exercises, techniques and training methods. It was his students that organised them into sets. This was more recent than people like to admit- not more than 150 years ago.

Anyway- good to see people like you performing with proper martial intent but be assured that it is Deng Si Hap Gar

Thanks for the compliments. Alot of what you are saying matches what my sifu told me. We practice 3 hop ga forms, lohan, che sin and fu hok serng dao.

are there any resources you could point me to for additional info on the deng family hop ga lineage?



Good stuff SD...by the way how much hop gar does your sifu have incorporated into his curriculum? We have some northern stuff incorporated in ours through Shek Kin. I am guess To Hon Jeung learned some Hop Gar or does it go back to Fong Yuk Shu?

Hop Ga was absorbed into our choy lay fut curriculum by Fong Yuk Shu (1870-1953). We only practice those 3 forms the rest is clf, however the concepts of hop ga can be found in much of our fighting


The history on the NFMA website was actually written by To Sum (To Hon Cheung's son) based off his hand written notes that he got from his father. The notes were then translated by my sifu's son into english for the website the following statement is in regards to his training

"Fong Yuk Shu was born in Canton during the year 1870 to a wealthy gentlemen named Fong Kit Ting. Fong Kit Ting was a martial artist, and a scholar who earned his fortune through his entrepreneurship and many business endeavors. He was an herbalist, the founder of Canton’s Fong Bin Hospital, and the owner of the local water company. He was a renaissance man whose skills in both the martial and the academic arts were passed on to his son, Fong Yuk Shu.

To further his martial studies, Fong Yuk Shu sought scholarship under both Chan Koon Pak, and the martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam. "

The martial monk was his hop ga sifu

[CLFNole]

Do you find the hop gar fighting concepts very similar to CLF or somewhat different? I have seen hop gar/lama but know nothing of it. Yeah it's another southern style like CLF but was just curious.

[taichi4eva]

the che sin kuen looks like the last half of the deng family dai lohan set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANx_sRfPY7U

[taichi4eva]

Hi risingcrane (David),

I was wondering if you could explain the technique progression in the barehand forms of Deng Family Hop Gar- Siu Lohan, Dai Lohan, and Fu Hok Seung Dau. They all seem to be about the same length. Does each form highlight a certain type of fighting, like punching, grappling, throwing, etc.?

Dai Lohan looks like it emphasizes using various hand techniques (i.e. striking with the fingers, claws), more so than Siu Lohan.

[Shaolindynasty]

the che sin kuen looks like the last half of the deng family dai lohan set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANx_sRfPY7U


actually other than the brief section I posted this is a completely different form to our che sin kuen



Do you find the hop gar fighting concepts very similar to CLF or somewhat different? I have seen hop gar/lama but know nothing of it. Yeah it's another southern style like CLF but was just curious.

First let me say i can only speak to my individual experience and how we utilize each method, others may have a different interpertation. We utilize more bridges for deflection and techs like kum jerng to press the opponents limbs in clf.The Hop Ga Syetem seems to emphasize the strategy 'slipping and hitting". Our clf is a little more compact and uses direct lines in terms of stepping into the opponent while hop ga seems to rely of stepping at angles(evade) and hitting without "blocking" first(intercept). CLF is right side dominant(right side forward) and hop ga seems to use more side to side movement and roughly treats both hands equal. There is some cross over between the strategies of the two and alot of the techniques are similar. People who dont know these methods tend to confuse the 2 because of the swing techniques and other basic similarities. Overall i think the 2 methods compliment each other well and the strengths of each help to cover the weaknesses of each

[jdhowland]

People who dont know these methods tend to confuse the 2 because of the swing techniques and other basic similarities. Overall i think the 2 methods compliment each other well and the strengths of each help to cover the weaknesses of each

I was glad to see this observation. We, too, have CLF and Hop Gar and I think they are just different enough to be complimentary.

[taai gihk yahn]

I was glad to see this observation. We, too, have CLF and Hop Gar and I think the are just different enough to be complimentary.

Chan Tai San's "hybrid" approach to CLF/Lama would seem to support that perspective as well...

[RisingCrane]

Hi risingcrane (David),

I was wondering if you could explain the technique progression in the barehand forms of Deng Family Hop Gar- Siu Lohan, Dai Lohan, and Fu Hok Seung Dau. They all seem to be about the same length. Does each form highlight a certain type of fighting, like punching, grappling, throwing, etc.?

Dai Lohan looks like it emphasizes using various hand techniques (i.e. striking with the fingers, claws), more so than Siu Lohan.

All 3 forms contain punch, kick sieze and wrestle- it is not that each form concentrates on one type of move, rather it is the concept of each set that is different:

Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.


Hop Ga was absorbed into our choy lay fut curriculum by Fong Yuk Shu (1870-1953). We only practice those 3 forms the rest is clf, however the concepts of hop ga can be found in much of our fighting

Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.)


are there any resources you could point me to for additional info on the deng family hop ga lineage?

http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidRogers99?feature=mhee
http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

[Shaolindynasty]

Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.

There does seem to be some common ancestory. I'm not sure how it would map out in terms of the timeline. Fong Yuk Shu lived from 1870-1953 supposedly from the writings we have his hop ga sifu was a martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam. If thats the case it would have to been this monk who learned from the Deng lineage. That would put the time possibly into the 1800's or early 1900's at the latest. this is the section on Fong Yuk Shu from my sifus website


Fong Yuk Shu was born in Canton during the year 1870 to a wealthy gentlemen named Fong Kit Ting. Fong Kit Ting was a martial artist, and a scholar who earned his fortune through his entrepreneurship and many business endeavors. He was an herbalist, the founder of Canton’s Fong Bin Hospital, and the owner of the local water company. He was a renaissance man whose skills in both the martial and the academic arts were passed on to his son, Fong Yuk Shu.

To further his martial studies, Fong Yuk Shu sought scholarship under both Chan Koon Pak, and the martial monk named Jing Han who resided in the Nam Fook Temple located in Ho Nam.

At the age of eighteen, Fong Yuk Shu went to the country’s capital to compete in the Mo Jong Yuen competition (complete martial arts grand-championships) held by the Qing dynasty. The prize for winning was an opportunity to become an honorable officer in the Qing military. The championship consisted of five events. First was a contest of strength measured by the pulling of a heavy bow. The second was a demonstration of the Kwan Dao set. The third was a demonstration strength by lifting stone bars of increasing weight. The forth was traditional standing archery, and the final event was archery while riding horseback. Fong Yuk Shu had won the first five events but failed to do so in the last. By refusing to pay the bribe money asked for by the official in charge of the final event, Fong Yuk Shu was given a sick horse thus causing him to lose. He was angered by such corrupt practices.

Disturbed by the Qing’s corruption and moved by Dr. Sun Yat-San convictions, Fong Yuk Shu took initiative and joined the doctor in a revolt against the Qing government. When Fong Yuk Shu became a wanted man for his decision, Dr. Sun convinced him to escape to Singapore until the situation eased. When the revolution was over, Fong Yuk Shu returned to Canton and made a decision to stay away from politics. He began practicing medicine and teaching martial arts in the six schools he had established throughout the Canton area.

In 1925, a big dispute erupted between factions of the factory steel and wood workers that resulted in many violent encounters between the two groups. To remedy the situation, the steel workers union hired Fong Yuk Shu to act as the head instructor for all the local factory unions. Out of respect for Fong Yuk Shu as their teacher, the different fractions decided settle their dispute peacefully.

In 1933, the province of Canton organized a national martial arts championship where Fong Yuk Shu was invited to act as a judge. Of the many competitors, his students took both first and second place standings in both the spear and staff categories. Following the competition, Fong Yuk Shu attempted to consolidate the martial arts community by co-founding the National Chinese Martial Association based in Canton. He also acted as the organization’s technical advisor.

In 1937, Fong Yuk Shu relocated to Hong Kong and established both medical clinics and martial arts schools in the Wan Chai and Kowloon districts. Residents praised him for his generosity and charity as he set up free public medical clinics in Shum Shui Po’s Lung Hing temple and maintained public academic centers in Kowloon’s merchants association headquarters.

After living a life of many great accomplishments and charities, Fong Yuk Shu passed away in 1953.



There is obviously more to this than is written here. Fong Yuk Shu is a pretty well known figure so there is bound to be more info out there. I haven't really talked much with my sifu about the lineage of our hop ga outside what is written above. Our main source of study is with the Choy Lay Fut system and the hop ga info usually is treated as sort of a footnote in terms of the overall history of our school. This conversation has inspired me to ask more quesitons about this when I see him this weekend.

An interesting side note. I was reading up on hop ga history on wiki yesterday and this info struck me as interesting

Jyu Chyuhn (朱亦傳) (1892-1980) was born in the Toi-San district of Guangdong province and began his training in martial arts at an early age. He studied a wide variety of martial arts including the Choi Lei Faht (Choy Lay Fut) style under the direction of Master Chan Goon-Bahk, the son of the style's founder, Chan Heung.[2] Jyu Chyuhn first learned Lama Pai under the direction of Wong Lam-Hoi and then sought out Wong Yan-Lam when he returned to Guangdong. Eventually, Jyu Chyuhn learned the entire Lama Pai system. However, Jyu Chyuhn became interested in Buddhism later in life and, inspired by the stories his teachers told him about their youth, retired near the Clear Cloud Monastery (清 云 寺) in Guangdong Province in southern China.

The reason it caught my eye was this person also studied under Chan Koon Pak as did Fong Yuk Shu. That would be 2 disciples of Chan koon pak that also studied hop ga. i wonder if there was some kind of association between the two schools. Something else that sturck me is when you compare the histories of cho lay fut, hop ga and hung kuen its clear that in guangdong everyone was training with everyone

As for arguing, I am open to many possibilities and dont mind discussing those possibilities. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

An interesting side note. I was reading up on hop ga history on wiki yesterday and this info struck me as interesting

Jyu Chyuhn (朱亦傳) (1892-1980) was born in the Toi-San district of Guangdong province and began his training in martial arts at an early age. He studied a wide variety of martial arts including the Choi Lei Faht (Choy Lay Fut) style under the direction of Master Chan Goon-Bahk, the son of the style's founder, Chan Heung.[2] Jyu Chyuhn first learned Lama Pai under the direction of Wong Lam-Hoi and then sought out Wong Yan-Lam when he returned to Guangdong. Eventually, Jyu Chyuhn learned the entire Lama Pai system. However, Jyu Chyuhn became interested in Buddhism later in life and, inspired by the stories his teachers told him about their youth, retired near the Clear Cloud Monastery (清 云 寺) in Guangdong Province in southern China.
Jyu Chyuhn was Chan Tai San's CLF and Lama teacher, and was really the guy who combind the two systems; for example, Chan used to do a "chaap chyuhn" which was basically CLF chaap choih but using the mechanics of lama's chyuhn choir, which he said was "unique" to Jyu Chyuhn's approach; I mean, whatever, not some earth-shattering revelation, but interesting; there were probably other examples, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember, lol...

there are people in the NYC area who are more well-versed in the details of all this than I am (LKFMDC & Lama Pai Sifu), but they are no longer on the forum; actually, Lama Pai Sifu (Mike Parella) visited Jyu Chyun's son and learned a form from him some years back which I think was CLF, but contained some "lama-ish" stuff, if I;m not mistaken (which i may be)

[jdhowland]

...Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.]



I like this style of organization. It seems to be the same progression seen in early Lama and White Crane teachings.

In contrast, Ng Yim Ming's Hop Gar as taught by Tse Cheuk begins with a fairly difficult set that blends long and short, grappling and point striking. This only works because Cheuk taught his students Hop Gar only after we had completed years of White Crane training. The large frame gings were already in place by the time we were ready to develop the finer points of angling in on an opponent.

[taichi4eva]

Hi jdhowland,

In your opinion what are the major differences between Hop Gar and White Crane?

Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

[jdhowland]

In your opinion what are the major differences between Hop Gar and White Crane?

Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

No real differences that I can see in the functional area. There are so many lineages of both that there could be as much difference between two Hop Ga schools as between Hop Ga and White Crane. In the past the names were somewhat interchangeable. Wong Yen Lam taught into old age and taught his later students differently as his eyesight failed. I suspect that Wong Yen Lam and Wong Lam Hoi did not think of their arts as being different. Ng Siu Jung's White Crane expanded with the success of his schools and developed more flavors from other systems but it did not change its essence as a "Lama style."

Compared to most TWC schools Hop Ga is pared down and does not stress a vast array of weapons. I also have a feeling that Hop Ga remains a bodyguard style in that it does not emphasize self defense. It is about taking someone out with little regard to personal safety. White Crane has expanded to the point that it is actually a little harder to define as a style.

I don't know anything about the 28 stars. Folks who know better than I have said that Ku Chi Wai learned for only a brief period (weeks, not months) and that Ng was reluctant to teach him. Personally, I have only seen a couple of videos showing his style and I can say that the footwork is definitely not Hop Ga style.

[TenTigers]

All 3 forms contain punch, kick sieze and wrestle- it is not that each form concentrates on one type of move, rather it is the concept of each set that is different:

Siu Law Horn is to teach 'big opening' and 'big closing'. Steps are large and power generation is in a wide arc. This form really contains all of the seed techniques of the style. The form concentrates on offensive moves.

Fu Hok Serng Dow is about evasion. Angling, stepping and defensive movements. The form contains hard and techniques like claws and grips, plus soft movements like whipping strikes.

Dai Law Horn is about body method rather than step method. It requires more skill to apply because the idea is to make his strike miss by a small amount and counter to vital areas. This form uses the 'single finger' technique and phoenix eye fist to attack points.



Could Fong Yuk Shu have learned from Deng Gum To? Don't want to argue, but it bears his trademarks (I have practised Deng Family Hap Gar for over 20 years and learned directly from his son in Canton.)



http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidRogers99?feature=mhee
http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

Sifu Rogers, where does Siu Dat Mo fit in?

[RisingCrane]

Siu Dat Mo (aka Gum Gong Kune) is the first form taught. I have seen Siu Law horn and Tiger/Crane taught in either order but Siu Dat Mo is always first, and Dai Law Horn last.
The Siu Dat Mo form is shorter than the other sets (I think the reason its not seen so much is because the sequence is too short for competition [minimum 60 seconds])
The form has both long and short hands, knees, elbow and shoulder strikes, trips and kicks- so it is a very useful sequence to practise, does not require a great deal of space, and it is not too difficult for beginners to learn.

[jdhowland]

RisingCrane, have you (or anyone) produced a video on Siu Dat Mo? I'm curious to see if there is any relationship to our gam gong techniques.


.

[RisingCrane]

I do not have a video of the set, sorry.
Here is my son performing it in Hong Kong. He was 9 years old and there are a few mistakes so don't take this as textbook- but it will give you some idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0OVd-mC0k8

[jdhowland]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0OVd-mC0k8

Very cool. Thanks for posting this.

[once ronin]

Sifu Rogers,

You son at 9 years old train really well.

Is your Deng lineage relate to Choy yee Gung or Lee Cheong linage in Guangzhou?

[RisingCrane]

Once Ronin:

Is your Deng lineage relate to Choy yee Gung or Lee Cheong linage in Guangzhou?

No it isn't.

This is the Deng Family Lineage-

http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/page15.html

[madhusudan]

Here is a link to a google map I have been working on in my spare time:

http://goo.gl/maps/tYBFX

It is intended as a reference of openly teaching Tibetan White Crane, Hop Gar and Lama sifus. It is not to be considered complete or authoritative in any way. I have merely compiled some publicly available information into a convenient format. If it is of use or interest, great.

[taichi4eva]

I would like to add Sifu David Cox on the list, in Bradford, PA.

[madhusudan]

Cool, thanks. Will do. In order not to derail the thread, PM me new contacts.

[jdhowland]

quick question: was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?


Thanks, PM, for the following link. Now I see where the question comes from. Fat Ga Lo Hon is a perfectly good name for what later became Hap Ga.



http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/03/tiger-and-crane-double-form-set-fu-hok-seung-ying-kyun/

[jdhowland]

...Also, Ku Chi Wai's group says that Ng Yim Ming focused mainly on the 28 stars, a form consisting of seed tickets that could be taken apart and parsed together. Were you also taught a version of this form?

I thought this sounded familiar, dug through some old books and found that Lo Wai Keung featured a set by this name in one of his books. I don't know if it is something he made up or received but it is obviously based on only a few seeds of the system. Not even as complete as the basic six strengths set. My guess is that it was designed to get beginning students moving with simple crane techniques.

In contrast, our Hop Ga Kyuhn from Ng Yim Ming features no simple beginning sets or "training sets" but only longer and fairly complex "catalog" sets. Maybe this is because my sifu had already learned White Crane from Ng Siu Jung and didn't need them. I'll have to ask him about this.

[PM]

Thanks, PM, for the following link. Now I see where the question comes from. Fat Ga Lo Hon is a perfectly good name for what later became Hap Ga.

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/03/tiger-and-crane-double-form-set-fu-hok-seung-ying-kyun/

Yes, i think so!

[lkfmdc]

The "maht jong" in "maht jong lama pai" refers to Vajrayana Buddhism

"fut ga" means "buddhist style"....

certainly Vajrayana is a form of Buddhism and thus part of "fut ga"

[jdhowland]

The "maht jong" in "maht jong lama pai" refers to Vajrayana Buddhism

"fut ga" means "buddhist style"....

certainly Vajrayana is a form of Buddhism and thus part of "fut ga"

Absolutely right.

It is interesting that some school leaders have embraced the generic Fat Ga name while others have shunned it.

T.Y. Wong taught a Siu Lum style that he emphasized was NOT the same as Fut Gar. I can only imagine that the reason he chose to distance himself from the name is that some people were calling it that.

A branch of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut is now Hung Sing Fut Gar.

A branch of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut is now Fut Gar.

My siu bak changed the name of his BSCLF to Bak Sing Fut Gar.

This kind of verbal distancing seems to be useful for creating new brand name recognition.

.

[CLFNole]

Absolutely right.
A branch of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut is now Fut Gar.
.

Really??? This is one I never heard before.

[jdhowland]

Really??? This is one I never heard before.

I just learned of it myself a couple of years ago. It may not be a big group, just somenone's interpretation. He says it comes from Choy Fok tradition and I know that one of his teachers is a Chan style CLF guy, so maybe I misrepresented it as CLF in the first place.

[CLFNole]

I wonder how much can really be traced all the way back to Choy Fook? When I hear things like that I always get the bad idea in my head that someone learned some CLF then made their own style from it saying it is from Choy Fook or insert whomever you want. Makes it sound "special" which is typically a red flag.

[jdhowland]

=CLFNole;1217947]I wonder how much can really be traced all the way back to Choy Fook?

I wasn't lead to believe there is any more info than we already have. That's why I jumped to the conclusion of CLF.




...typically a red flag

Exactly what went through my alleged mind. But it seems he only wanted to pare the system down to concepts and gings for what suited him, and he continues to train with approval from a good CLF representative, my own sifu. In this case I completely understand why he doesn't wish to call it CLF. I only included this as an example because, however small the group of people he influences, it still represents a turn to the fat ga label. My sifu has also dropped most set training from his schedule and practices mostly noi gung/ hei gungs.

[CLFNole]

Didn't realize you knew him thought it was someone you just knew of. I understand teaching less and focusing on specific things. CLF has way too many forms in my opinion.

[taichi4eva]

I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this- what are the big differences between Lama/ Hop Gar/ White Crane and CLF?

Just to get the ball rolling, I've been told that the stances are higher. Personally, I've had a hard time with this because of my baji and shaolin background. I'm so used to "sinking' but my White Crane teacher encourages me to be more mobile.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1218152]I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this- what are the big differences between Lama/ Hop Gar/ White Crane and CLF?

Just to get the ball rolling, I've been told that the stances are higher. ...QUOTE]

Lama stances may be higher in the beginning. White Crane teaches a thighs-parallel-to-floor sei pihng mah for training but it doesn't show much in the movement. I would say that Lama stances are generally narrower but even CLF varies in height. Both have very active footwork.

CLF emphasizes the continuity of fight with strong waist power and simultaneous defense and attack and allows for a sequence of traded back-and-forth exchanges while seeking an advantage.

Lama styles generally prefer to avoid the long exchange of blows from both parties and try to wait for the opportunity to create an opening and blast away until something is resolved. If the tactic fails, separate and try again.

Note that the above are only theoretical differences and reflect attitudes rather than absolute differences. Different fighters have different attributes and preferences but the Lama stylist is always encouraged to go for the overwhelming series of whirlwind attacks.

The three major attributes of the Lama styles that set it apart from CLF or other "Faht Ga" systems are footwork/angling (baat gwa and chat sing stepping as well as skipping or jumping steps), body toughening (not lacking in CLF but emphasized in a different way), and power generation. Each of these three general subjects is worthy of a thread of its own.

[lkfmdc]

NOTE
This is done at "walk through" speed, just to record the set

To me, it is very classic CTS verson Lama Pai, others have said it looks a lot like CLF...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

[taichi4eva]

I trained with Sifu Innocenzi for a private lesson in Lama basics. I wish I had more time in NYC, because it was so enlightening. It is footage like this that makes me wish I was going to school closer to the East Coast.

[lkfmdc]

I should really note that Laurette was the first one of us to speak Chinese and helped us a LOT.... he also had a wide experience in TCMA....

[lkfmdc]

absolutely; and like urself, was committed to scholarship



I had academic Chinese language training which of course helped, I also had a (crazy) Chinese wife who was able to communicate with him....




then there were the chosen few who, despite having no ability to communicate w CTS at all, some how miracuously inhereited the system along w all the detailed knowledge thereof...

and translate elaborte quotes about subtle advanced philosophy (that CTS never said) :rolleyes: :mad:

[lkfmdc]

indeed - I actualy just got the contact info for the person whose lineage it is actually from, so will be reaching out for some verification the next few days...

grabs popcorn and waits for fun to ensure

[lkfmdc]

well there may not be that much fun, I'm going to keep it kinda quiet, just between relevant parties...

:mad: :o :( :mad: :confused: :eek::o

[Gru Bianca]

NOTE
This is done at "walk through" speed, just to record the set

To me, it is very classic CTS verson Lama Pai, others have said it looks a lot like CLF...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

I had seen it before and I am no CLF expert at all but honestly I can't see much resemblance to CLF in there.
As you said, it's very classic Lama and it looks really familiar as very similar to the Pak Hok we practice.

Nice endeed

[madhusudan]

Does anyone have information on Kingston Ku from this article, The Deadly Fighting Principles of White Crane Kung Fu?:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bNIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22che+san%22+waist&source=bl&ots=6nRGa-mrvW&sig=2PHjCkdV2cwvF4j9J-BF0JHYMZA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NzB5UZT3HumUjAKt6oGYDw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The name is new to me and a quick Google search turns up nothing. Thanks.

[diego]

Does anyone have information on Kingston Ku from this article, The Deadly Fighting Principles of White Crane Kung Fu?:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bNIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22che+san%22+waist&source=bl&ots=6nRGa-mrvW&sig=2PHjCkdV2cwvF4j9J-BF0JHYMZA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NzB5UZT3HumUjAKt6oGYDw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The name is new to me and a quick Google search turns up nothing. Thanks.

LOL, scroll down a few pages to the martial merchandise add..They have Bruce Lee movies for $ 59.99 on VHS. that's ****ed!:confused:

[jdhowland]

Does anyone have information on Kingston Ku from this article, The Deadly Fighting Principles of White Crane Kung Fu?:



The name is new to me and a quick Google search turns up nothing. Thanks.

I remember reading that article when it came out. Never heard anything more about him.

[crazedjustice88]

Hey guys, I was wondering how much does the mui fah jeong play into the training of these styles? The reason I ask is that at my school, David Chin being my sifu, we train forms and footwork on the mui fah, then I see some lama people do the needle in cotton (name? sorry) on the mui fah. I was wondering what the benefit is of this.

Hope all is well,
Will

[taichi4eva]

My sifu put some posts arranged in the plum flower pattern, he told me, kind of like the "5" on a dice, and was doing some form on the posts...i should ask him what it was.

[crazedjustice88]

Hello Will and welcome to the forum Sifu Chin is first cousin to my Sifu who has passed in the 90's. Greetings to you and all the Hop Gar brothers in SC. When I learned Cotton Needle, I was told that the postures drop the center to the ground and when you do the Cotton Needle on the stumps, the center stays on the ground amplifying the effect, so that when you do Cotton Needle on the ground, after having done it on the stumps, the net effect is that your center will be literally in the ground for however many feet you have trained on the stumps. The stumps act as an amplifier of grounding technique. Hope this helps explain it.

On another note. I went to your youtube channel and OMG what a voice. I was also reading your voice coach's curriculum vitae and my goodness what a repertoire'. He has explored his full voice range. I encourage anyone who reads this post to check out Will's youtube channel.

Will's youtube channel here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PLR3TRVr5GNFTShMcb1ZExfi8oNaaduLJR&v=XmbNHsnvqrc#!)

Huh...thats actually really cool. In my sifus hop gar system we don't have that form. What we do up on the forms is train the kay men bo and the white crane striking, more commonly known as seven star continuous striking. The whole body elimination thing is trained up there as well.

Wow...you are very kind...hahaha all I can say is anything can help. My voice teacher is HIGHLY underrated and needs much more recognition. Thanks again.

[jdhowland]

Hey guys, I was wondering how much does the mui fah jeong play into the training of these styles?

All the lama schools have stories about this, if not exactly the same methods. In my tradition we start with Mui Fa Johng on 5 posts in a quincunx pattern (like the 5 spots on a gaming die) then move on to a slightly more elaborate take on the same form, Dai Johng Muih Fa, with a nine-post pattern. This is completely different from the fourteen-post needle-in-cotton posts.

The ability to jump up onto the posts is a difficult skill to achieve in itself. After becoming adept at the footwork the posts were gradually pared to a smaller diameter with a spokeshave until the tops were only a few inches in diameter. The problem with this sort of skill, according to my sifu, is that your steps become so habitual it is hard to vary your footwork--steps will always tend to be the same distance.

[crazedjustice88]

All the lama schools have stories about this, if not exactly the same methods. In my tradition we start with Mui Fa Johng on 5 posts in a quincunx pattern (like the 5 spots on a gaming die) then move on to a slightly more elaborate take on the same form, Dai Johng Muih Fa, with a nine-post pattern. This is completely different from the fourteen-post needle-in-cotton posts.

The ability to jump up onto the posts is a difficult skill to achieve in itself. After becoming adept at the footwork the posts were gradually pared to a smaller diameter with a spokeshave until the tops were only a few inches in diameter. The problem with this sort of skill, according to my sifu, is that your steps become so habitual it is hard to vary your footwork--steps will always tend to be the same distance.

Thats some interesting stuff. We have different mui fah patterns as well...not to far though to actually know them.

Hahahaha we just use a step up to them hahahaha The way we work it is that hardwiring these steps isn't bad, as long as you learn the different angles and the like. Hard to explain though, but it makes sense when fighting hahahaha

[jdhowland]

a we just use a step up to them

That seems to be the norm nowadays. But it used to be a display of skill, like getting back onto a lei tai after being knocked off. Try this: the jong should be taller than head height and you jump up to cap the top with your hands, then pull yourself up as if leapfrogging the post but land on your feet. The balancing is easy compared to the mount. I was always afraid I would overshoot and break my neck. Instead, I lost some chin skin by not being committed to the vault. It's a cruel and unforgiving training partner...but then you get the bragging rights. A manly display of strength. That's what kung fu is about, no?