What is your definition of a "Master" or a "Grand Master"? +Are there to many???

[gazza99]

I have seen many people claim/earn the title of Master, and wonder if they accually have mastered their art and themselves? I personally have come accross a few "Masters" who couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I am no Master, not even close, so should a Master only have technical knowledge of a traditional system, ie. Kata, etc.. to be given the title?
Especially "GrandMaster" I sometimes have trouble seeing what they "founded" to be new or revolutionary in any way shape or form? It seems many are to concerned with doing things their own way, or mixing things up that they convince themselves to stop learning their current art, or moving on to another one ,and develop a new one based on current exp. Maybe this is ok when you are like 75 and you have nothing left to do?
But at what point do you think we should throw together our own art and teach it to others? I I will never have felt that Ive learned enough about Taijiquan, or Baguazhang to blend them or change them into another style? How about everyone else and your arts?
Also have you ever wanted to tell a "Master" that he should drop the title, and just learn/teach? It seems once you are a "Master" it would be a stopping point, that you are the final authority in your art, and their is no where else to go.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts/replies.
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[thumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It seems once you are a "Master" it would be a stopping point, that you are the final authority in your art, and their is no where else to go. [/quote]

Right on man! No matter how long I train, and if I ever become a Sifu one day, and no matter what heights I reach in Kung Fu, I will NEVER EVER call myself a Master. I've heard you are only done learning when you die and you never can truly master your martial art. I train in BaGua also and this couldn't be more true. I don't know, maybe when I'm 85 I'll feel different.
Good post Gary. I'm surprised it got no love.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Sharky]

WHO GIVES A FUZUCK?

JUST TRAIN FOR FECKS SAKE.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[thumper]

so, wait, why are you on here then sharky? you should be training.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Sharky]

no, i've already trained for 3 hours today, thanks.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[krome]

my views are

Grand Master - creater of an art
Master - 20+ years in the art
Instructor - 12+ years in the art
Advance student - 6-12 years in the art
Intermediate Student - 3-6 years in the art
Beginner student - less than 3 years in the art

Use what works not what looks pretty.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I totally agree with you, I think that master title means you cannot learn any more about your art! this is a big debate, however the title is just that a title just like boss, captain or cheif. It is a way of reconizing acomplishments in your field an authority name. So techniquely you have to learn a complete art for 20 dedicated years and teach someone to sifu level to have a master title. To have grand master tilte you must have 20 more dedicated years and teach someone to master level. This is why I get a funny look on my face when I see an american guy with a full time job at chevy married and 2 kids say he is a master..... where did he find the time?
but again this is america and across from my school the give black belts to 12 year olds so anything is possible

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[thumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>no, i've already trained for 3 hours today, thanks. [/quote]

but, but, but...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> WHO GIVES A FUZUCK? [/quote]

I've trained for 4 and a half kiddie.

So let's hear some rhymes.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Sharky]

no

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[thumper]

Hmmm. Krome, you just say dude has to be "in the art". But I don't think a guy who goes to Kung Fu class 3 times a week for 2 hours, and doesn't train outside of that, and has been a student for 13 years should be considered a Sifu. Skill is determined by how much you work, not just how long you've been studying.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[thumper]

Please sharky? C'mon, I'll battle you. I battled a cat who took Ninjitsu a few years back and they were the nicest rhymes ever....with all types of martial art references in them. It'll be fun. Live a little. I'll go easy on you I promise.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Sharky]

i'm too scared, i've never battled before

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Ozihn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i'm too scared, i've never battled before

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE. [/quote]

hehe


http://www.tutorialforums.com/images/smilies/New/classic.gif

[Richie]

To put it simple,

(Sifu) a master is someone who complete learn an style. (Sigung) a grand master is the is the old and or the head of the style. (Sitaigung) is the grand master before the grand master now. (Sijo) the founder of that style.

There can be many masters of a style, only one grand master. That's what makes me laugh. So many GMs is one style. :rolleyes:

[Nexus]

A master is not something you can describe in words, or give years as a numerical scale of their skill. A master is someone who has found their Way in the world, and followed that way. Most people never find their Way, many don't even look for it, and many whom do find their way don't have the courage to take it on.

We can never get rid of people calling themselves Master & Grandmaster whom posses superficial skill. In fact, as a student of a "Master", it is often difficult to judge how much work that person has had to endure to call themselves that as it is.

People will gave themselves labels, identities, and titles all throughout life. Often people call themselves computer programmers when they are fresh out of college with no work experience, and often people call themselves artists because they can make a picture that resembles a fruit of some sort on a canvas that is recognizable.

As for telling a Master that they don't deserve the title, keep in mind that it is only a title, and they will likely feel that even if your intentions are justified, the action may seem confrontational and all the more reason why you are uneducated and not worthy of telling someone if they can or cannot be called a Master.

You may one day find yourself being called Master by your students, or calling yourself Master.

Just remember that your Mom probably won't call you Master :)

- Nexus

[soy]

Blabla. Master is just a teaching word. Why people get so hung up on words? We're studying an art of motion, not of words. So why worry so much about words? Motion is hard enough already!

[Ryu]

I sometimes wonder why someone would want the title of master or grandmaster...

I have a stupid "Instructor" title collecting dust on my wall, and because of the **** thing I'm always thinking I should be some kind of super being, which I'm not. :(

Master, Grandmaster, ..... yuck. Too much pressure and stress.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[HuangKaiVun]

To me, a master is someone who puts the art into practice effectively and consistently - and I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT.

I don't think a person has to reach a point where they can't improve to be called "master". A guy like Yip Man certainly deserves to be called a "master".

"Grandmaster"? I always thought of the term as being the sifu of my sifu.

[Wongsifu]

my definition of a master is a guy who is a real badass. :D
jokes aside, i have only ever seen one guy i could really say is a master, I have seen a couple of the top names of china, and i cant consider them as masters, but this friend of mine he is the definition of a master.
He moves like the wind he is everywhere at once but you cant see it, and he has total control of his body, and the power he generates is phenomenal.

And he always says, i am nothing compared to my teacher. this is what i consider to be a real grandmaster and master.

hen you see poeple like this , its really different its a league of their own , its like a 20 year old in kindergarden all the kids look up to him like he is god.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[shaolinboxer]

It's so hard to define a master, however, with enough experience I think their existence becomes self-evident.

[Mojo]

The highest level person I have ever met, Share Lew, prefers to be called Sifu.
http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/march98/lew.html

I am the most humble person you'll ever meet.

[HuangKaiVun]

That guy is 80?!?!!

[Sharky]

maybe he moisturises

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Cody]

especially from the vantage point of one who is not.
I think of a Sifu as a teacher. A Master can also be called Sifu. One can say that a Master is a Sifu, but not all Sifu's are Masters.

A Sifu might have received permission to teach from another Sifu or Master, or not. The qality of teaching one might expect is quite up in the air in either case in these times. I guess this is One reason why students sniff the trail like hounds to find out about "authentic" forms.

A GrandMaster is a founder of a system, or someone to whom a system has been handed down by another GrandMaster. I think it is possible for someone to make changes in forms or teaching methods and call themselves GrandMasters in modern day. If you make up something quite original, why not? If not, well, it makes me uneasy.

A Master is someone who is competent to practice and to teach a complete system, and one whose energy training is at a certain level of practice and control. This latter aspect is very difficult and not safe to evaluate. Hence, being a walking encyclopedia of forms of a given system, even done very well, is not the equivalent. There are different levels of mastery and it might occasionally get specialized. A Master can be so appointed by his Master or GrandMaster, or can be self-appointed and seen as such by his peers. I think that is fine, 'cept there can be a lot of "stroking" going on. This further confuses the issue for students.

I don't think that years of study is an indicator of anything.
These are formal titles. It's gotten very loosey goosey. I've started recently to call everyone Sifu. My feeling is that unless the self has been mastered to the degree that it can be, and complete responsibility is taken for (especially with increased abilities to affect lives) one's behavior (which is not to mean that one has to be a sterling example of some utopian being), the term Master has no worth. Not without accountability, responsibility, compassion, and competence in the art. All present and accounted for.
Cody

[Shaolin36]

MY DEFINITION OF A MASTER

My definition of a master is as follows.
1)Someone whos has mastered the techiniques of their style.
2)Someone who has mastered the forms of their style.
3)Someone who is a good fighter using their syle.
4)Someone who has good morals and makes good decisions on when to use their martial skills.
5)Someone who propagates their style.
6)Someone that understands and studies the following-
Humility
Respect
Righteousness
Trust
Loyalty
Will
Endurance,perseverance,patience
and courage.

Mastery in the martial arts to me does not just cover the martial aspect, there are mind and spiritual aspects that should be explored that bring us to a certain kind of enlightenment.(not quite like the monks but to a degree) Those who have felt it will know what I am talking about.
Once you have an understanding of the above, then and only then (in my mind) can you call yourself a true master.

Forgive me for being old school when it comes to this stuff.

Shaolin36

[Shaolin36]

A GRANMASTER
is someone who retains all of the above and then teaches someone to mastery with all of the above points being studied and understood.

Shaolin36

[Olethros]

"(Sifu) a master is someone who complete learn an style. (Sigung) a grand master is the is the old and or the head of the style. (Sitaigung) is the grand master before the grand master now. (Sijo) the founder of that style.
There can be many masters of a style, only one grand master. That's what makes me laugh. So many GMs is one style."

Don't you mean there can be only one Sijo?
In my style your teacher's teacher is a grandmaster. The teacher of your teacher's teacher is your great-grandmaster. (think grandfather and great-gradnfather) Sifu can also mean 'father' which is where all this grand stuff comes into play. In my style Sifu is not a master of the style, it's just someone who is sufficently advanced to be allowed to teach.

[Mojo]

HuangKaiVun
Yes, that photo was taken maybe a year before his 80th birthday. He is the most remarkable man I've ever met. Alot of people don't know that his uncle, Lew Ben, was a famous master of Choy Li Fut who lived in San Francisco. Quite a family.

LOL @ Sharky

I am the most humble person you'll ever meet.

[joedoe]

In my mind, the title of master is one that is conferred upon someone, not one that a person can take for themselves. When your students, teachers, training partners etc. consider you to be a master, then that is when you are a master.

I do not believe that being a master implies an end to learning. It implies a beginning of innovation. Once you have 'mastered' the art it means you have a true understanding of it. That means you have qualified to add to the art and make it grow and develop.

It is also my understanding that the term sifu has a different meaning even between schools. In my school, sifu is synonymous with master, while in others it means instructor.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ". But I don't think a guy who goes to Kung Fu class 3 times a week for 2 hours, and doesn't train outside of that, and has been a student for 13 years should be considered a Sifu. Skill is determined by how much you work, not just how long you've been studying. [/quote]

Let's see. 13 x 52 x 6 = 4056 hrs of training. And assuming that the training is mostly quality. Hmmm....better than most guys on the street have.

I agree with Abandit.

Master is a title of respect given by other people or students.

Sifu is a self-given title or a title given by one's teacher indicating that the person is ready to teach.

However, if I was a student I would definitely pick a Sifu that I felt had mastery of the art.

According to the dictionary a master is:

"(1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal
2"

So I guess as far as the master/student relationship goes a master is "an artist of consummate skill whose work serves as a model or ideal."

Interestingly though a consummate is from the Latin "consummatus, past participle of consummare to sum up, finish, from com- + summa sum"

Indicating that there is no room for improvment.

So to a student a master may seem to be a finished product but in reality he is evolving as well.


Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 10-31-01 at 04:18 PM.]

[Sam Wiley]

I really have no idea. I mean, I walk into this one certain gas station every morning during the work week with my crew for a coke and some breakfast, and the guy behind the counter calls me "boss." "Morning boss, buscuit today?" But of course that doesn't make me his boss, it's just an honorary thing he does to make his regular customers feel welcome. And I know that a lot of people consider the title of "doctor" to carry with it a degree, but there are a lot of people who are called "doctor" as an honorary title without having a doctorate in anything.

But I don't think that just because people consider you a master makes it so. I remember one time when my step-father introduced me to a friend of his, beaming with pride as he told this guy I was a "third degree master." I was horrified! He may consider me a master, but I know I'm not, and I would never introduce myself as "master" anything.

Maybe one day I'll have mastered something, and then I can look back and say, "okay, this is what defines mastery, since I have done this." But today, I can't define it, I can only point to people I feel are good examples.

*********