origins of wu-shu drunken fist sets?

[TenTigers]

anyone know the origin of the wu-shu drunken fist sets,drunken sword, etc?
Who created them?
When were they created?
(I am not speaking of the eight drunken immortals set, but of the contemporary wu-shu set)

[GeneChing]

Read Wu Di: The Power of Smooth: Skills of a Drunken Swordsman By Emilio Alpanseque in our 2010 November/December issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923), on the newsstands now.

[David Jamieson]

anyone know the origin of the wu-shu drunken fist sets,drunken sword, etc?
Who created them?
When were they created?
(I am not speaking of the eight drunken immortals set, but of the contemporary wu-shu set)

someone made it up to capitalize on the popularity of the jackie chan movies. :D

[bawang]

anyone know the origin of the wu-shu drunken fist sets,drunken sword, etc?
Who created them?
When were they created?
(I am not speaking of the eight drunken immortals set, but of the contemporary wu-shu set)

it originated in scene from jet li movie shaolin temple

[TenTigers]

it originated in scene from jet li movie shaolin temple
nah, predates the movie by many years. Jet Li was already 18, and had garnered several National Championships. Wu-Shu Drunken Fist set was being performed in the 70's in Wash. DC. Lei Lin Jei was 10 at the time.

[wenshu]

Jackie Chan's original Drunken Master was 1978, I imagine it predates that.

Perhaps it has its origins in Chinese Opera. If I recall correctly modern wushu borrowed heavily from Chinese Opera.

It could have a history like Di Tang Quan where an original traditional style had died out and wushu players made one up over it.

[GeneChing]

Read my Jan Feb 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=567) cover story The Sword and the Chalice: Master Zhang Anji Reveals the Secrets of Drunken Sword (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=568).

[TenTigers]

Jackie Chan's original Drunken Master was 1978, I imagine it predates that.

Perhaps it has its origins in Chinese Opera. If I recall correctly modern wushu borrowed heavily from Chinese Opera.

It could have a history like Di Tang Quan where an original traditional style had died out and wushu players made one up over it.
no. I am being very specific. The compulsory Wu-Shu drunken fist set.
who designed it, and when?

[bawang]

Jackie Chan's original Drunken Master was 1978, I imagine it predates that.

Perhaps it has its origins in Chinese Opera. If I recall correctly modern wushu borrowed heavily from Chinese Opera.

It could have a history like Di Tang Quan where an original traditional style had died out and wushu players made one up over it.

di tang never died. di tang is 9 rolls and 18 breakfalls.

[r.(shaolin)]

no. I am being very specific. The compulsory Wu-Shu drunken fist set.
who designed it, and when?

Modern Zuijiuquan was codified by Cai Longyun in the 1950's.
r.

[taai gihk yahn]

anyone know the origin of the wu-shu drunken fist sets,drunken sword, etc?
Who created them?
When were they created?
(I am not speaking of the eight drunken immortals set, but of the contemporary wu-shu set)

bunch of traditional guys getting together, drinking heavily, coming up w something PRC PC, the usual...

[GeneChing]

The King of Zuiquan is Shao Shankang, an 8th duan master born in Zhejiang in 1934. He was a disciple of Wang Ziping and was responsible for most of the development of the modern wushu version of zuiquan and zuijian. He first showcased his routine in 1953 at the First National Traditional Sports Meet in China. Shao was the co-author of Zuijiuquan: A Drunkard's Boxing, published in the early 80's with 9th duan master Cai Longyun (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=625). For more on this, see page 32 in the aforementioned current issue, our 2010 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923) issue.

[Tainan Mantis]

di tang is 9 rolls and 18 breakfalls.

You mean Jiu Zhuan Shi Ba Die?
Have you seen that or know who practices it?

Thank you for any help you can give in regard to this.
Kevin

[wenshu]

di tang never died. di tang is 9 rolls and 18 breakfalls.


I'm no martial arts scholar so help me out. You don't mean the wushu routine right?

What about this (aside from the obvious racial handicap):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIYPLT5NI1g&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=xlL0cLdtSlk

[bawang]

You mean Jiu Zhuan Shi Ba Die?
Have you seen that or know who practices it?

Thank you for any help you can give in regard to this.
Kevin

its not a form. its just 9 rolls and 18 breakfalls.

[mickey]

Tainan Mantis,

I have read about the 9 falls and 18 rolls in reference to a fighting competitor back in the 70's. He was from the Praying Mantis style. The impression I got was that it was a high level form. Since the person was from Hong Kong, it may still exist there. You may want to check with some of the associations there for info and contacts.


mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Getting drunk and fisting people, am I the only one that sees the wrongness of this?

[mickey]

sanjuro ronin,

I see you are still painting strange pictures with your words.

I forgive you. I know there are still people out there still mourning the loss of Bob Guccione. Just let it out, Brother. Let it out!!!


mickey

[GeneChing]

Coincidentally, our next issue (Jan Feb 2011 - on newsstand in early Dec) has an article on ditangquan. I'm going to give y'all a little taste, a little tease...


Ditangqaun was first mentioned in the fist form manuscript, Ji Xiao Xin Shu (New Book Recording Effective Techniques), written by the famous general Qi Jiguang in the Ming Dynasty (1527-1587 CE). It was described as the "leg work of Grandmaster Li and the tumbling skill of Grandmaster Zhang" Note that I've omitted the Chinese characters in this excerpt.

Seriously, you guys would know all the answers to all this stuff if you just read Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kungfu-magazine.html). :cool:

[Lucas]

coincidentally, our next issue (jan feb 2011 - on newsstand in early dec) has an article on ditangquan. I'm going to give y'all a little taste, a little tease...

Note that i've omitted the chinese characters in this excerpt.

Seriously, you guys would know all the answers to all this stuff if you just read kung fu tai chi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kungfu-magazine.html). :cool:

ooowwnnneeedd!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro ronin,

I see you are still painting strange pictures with your words.

I forgive you. I know there are still people out there still mourning the loss of Bob Guccione. Just let it out, Brother. Let it out!!!


mickey

:(:(:(

Nice one !

[mickey]

:) :) :)







mickey

[wenshu]

Coincidentally, our next issue (Jan Feb 2011 - on newsstand in early Dec) has an article on ditangquan. I'm going to give y'all a little taste, a little tease...

Note that I've omitted the Chinese characters in this excerpt.

Seriously, you guys would know all the answers to all this stuff if you just read Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kungfu-magazine.html). :cool:

Here is a link to 纪效新书. (traditional)http://zh.wikisource.org/zh/%E7%B4%80%E6%95%88%E6%96%B0%E6%9B%B8
minor edit; link is to Chinese Wikipedia, so, you know, may not be entirely accurate.


You mean actually read?

Nah, I'd much rather speculate wildly upon my own hopelessly ignorant and shortsighted assumptions. And Youtube searches.

[RenDaHai]

In the modern competitions people usually make up zui quan from scratch using a few basic skills like the drunken step etc. I'm not aware there is a competition standard, although the standard moves like the drunken step etc. probably come from the guy gene mentioned.

There are many old forms of 8 drunken immortals, drunken luohan, drunken beggar, and just drunken fist etc but usually they are just one off sets in larger styles rather than complete styles.

There are several systems of 8 immortals that i've seen (NOT 8 drunken immortals, just immortals). Usually one of them is drunk.

I've yet to see a complete system of drunken fist as a complete style..... anyone?

[TenTigers]

In the modern competitions people usually make up zui quan from scratch using a few basic skills like the drunken step etc. I'm not aware there is a competition standard, although the standard moves like the drunken step etc. probably come from the guy gene mentioned.

There are many old forms of 8 drunken immortals, drunken luohan, drunken beggar, and just drunken fist etc but usually they are just one off sets in larger styles rather than complete styles.

There are several systems of 8 immortals that i've seen (NOT 8 drunken immortals, just immortals). Usually one of them is drunk.

I've yet to see a complete system of drunken fist as a complete style..... anyone?

yes, eight drunken immortals is the original set and different systems have one, such as CLF, Seven star mantis, Tibetan White Crane. There is no "Drunken Style," unless it is a recent invention.
The reason I am trying to find the original compulsury wu-shu set and its origins, is that there are many schools that have linked up with these "Shaolin Monks," and are learning standardized contemporary wu-shu sets, and they think they are learning traditional Shaolin Ch'uan.

[RenDaHai]

@tigers

Yes.... this is a problem.

Shaolin does have a traditional 'zui luohan' set, but the chances of one of these 'monks' knowing it are slim to zero. The only places I have seen it are lineages that do not have a good relation with the modern temple. Plus it looks different, it doesn't have the 'zui bu' footwork, and looks kind of like a standard set, just a few more digong ground moves.

A lot of what is shown in these classes is not even standardized wushu (standardized wushu techniques actually all have origin in real often very good moves, they have just changed in flavour and lost a few principles). Anyway its often not even modernized wushu but just moves from the performance forms home grown at the big schools around shaolin.

YOu can often say for certain that any Animal and drunken forms shown in these classes are modern technique. The few traditional animal sets of northern shaolin tend to mimic the animals strategy rather than external form.

However that is not to say its all bad, often these performances train agility to a level most people never believed they were capable of, and that is a very important part of the martial arts. They also train 'Xin Fa'..... they train your ability to manifest your intent in movement. So although there is little applicable technique, some of the essence of kung fu still remains. Personally i only practice the traditional sets though, but thats just me.

[Tainan Mantis]

yes, eight drunken immortals is the original set

Hi Tigers,
Would you know of a good youtube clip of that?
I have looked at the original manuscript for the form and often wondered what it looked like.
But I am not sure which is the real.

Kevin

[TenTigers]

Hi Tigers,
Would you know of a good youtube clip of that?
I have looked at the original manuscript for the form and often wondered what it looked like.
But I am not sure which is the real.

Kevin
Hark Fu Mun has a nice one, theirs focuses not so much on falling and rolling, but power generation, coiling and evasion. It is definately Hakka flavored.
There are a few asorted CLF versions out there, hard to tell which ones are authentic and which are more recent.
There are one or two clips of seven star praying mantis.
Chan Fammily CLF has a nice one, with each section based on an individual immortal, the cup hand being a pheonix eye, and the gourd holding hand being an eagle claw, for joint locking and vital point strikes.
Trying to find it on the web is hard.
I had learned two versions, still not sure of the authenticity of them.
One of my Sifus taught individual techniques and pieces. Mostly focusing on throws and takedowns-suplex, sweeps, and joint locking,etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLzITWeXXi4&feature=fvsr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GeNID2RNY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKJjnNPyeio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GeNID2RNY&feature=related

[GeneChing]

Decheng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44742) also known for his nine-section whip (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-29.html), both of which he'll cop to being modern wushu. His main curriculum consists of classic Songshan Shaolin: xiaohong, dahong, luohan, etc. It's not an either/or situation with most of the wuseng. There are some biaoyanseng who don't know anything but modern wushu, but most of those were the performers that came out in the late 90s/early 2000s, the period during Yongxin's ascension to abbacy. The wuseng that were prior to that, like my master, did modern wushu and traditional Shaolin. The wuseng of the later 2000s have all reverted to a more traditional curriculum, so apart from a few unofficial demos, the abbot's entourage is now pretty traditional. It's sticky Shaolin, like so much of our lineage, but you have to take each individual master case-by-case. Just because they have some modern wushu forms under their belt in no way invalidates their authenticity.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for those clips.
The 2nd and 3rd are called Drunken Luohan. I like that 3rd clip from the HK 7 Star school.

I am curious about the style and form as it is one of the oldest known empty hand forms from Shaolin which has documentation.
This manual surfaced in the Qing dynasty but has been authenticated be several well known historians over the years. The preface indicates that it was originally written in the late Ming Dynasty. This page is where the Eight Drunken Immortals begins.

[r.(shaolin)]

The King of Zuiquan is Shao Shankang, an 8th duan master born in Zhejiang in 1934. He was a disciple of Wang Ziping and was responsible for most of the development of the modern wushu version of zuiquan and zuijian. He first showcased his routine in 1953 at the First National Traditional Sports Meet in China. Shao was the co-author of Zuijiuquan: A Drunkard's Boxing, published in the early 80's with 9th duan master Cai Longyun (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=625). For more on this, see page 32 in the aforementioned current issue, our 2010 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923) issue.

Although the set maybe based on Wang Ziping's drunk set I suspect that the "wushu-izing" of this set was done by Cai who was one of the chief architects behind modern wushu. Traditional 'drunkman' has more to do with training and developing defensive and counter attacking skills to be use at the moment of difficult and unbalanced situations. Unlike the modern just 'acting drunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGZ_XHeUrJc&feature=related) ' version, in the older traditional sets the techniques and rhythm is always changing and are much more varied in application. There are other old Shaolin traditions that claim that Shaolin Zuibaxian (少林醉八仙) was studied and practiced at Shaolin. One such tradition comes from Huang Baoshan (黄寶珊) who claimed to have learned Zuibaxian at Shaolin Si in 1920. Shifu Huang Baoshan lived in Tianshui, Gansu Province and passed away in 1998. His students are still around in Gansu and other places.
There is strong evidence that Zui Ba Xian 醉八仙 has been practiced at Shaolin as early as the 1600’s and taught by a senior Shaolin fighting monk named Xuanji (玄禨). Two different 17th century manuals identify Xuanji Shi as a Shaolin monk who practiced and taught Zui Ba Xian 醉八仙 at Shaolin.
According to the older generation of our Shaolin lineage, Zui Ba Xian 醉八仙 was still being practiced at Shaolin during the early and mid-1800’s and, as I mention in the above post, Huang Baoshan-黄寶珊 (1905-1998) also claimed to have learned Zui Ba Xian at Shaolin Si in 1920.

r.

[TenTigers]

Thanks for those clips.
The 2nd and 3rd are called Drunken Luohan. I like that 3rd clip from the HK 7 Star school.

I am curious about the style and form as it is one of the oldest known empty hand forms from Shaolin which has documentation.
This manual surfaced in the Qing dynasty but has been authenticated be several well known historians over the years. The preface indicates that it was originally written in the late Ming Dynasty. This page is where the Eight Drunken Immortals begins.
could you post more of this manuscript? Where did you get it?

[r.(shaolin)]

This manual surfaced in the Qing dynasty but has been authenticated be several well known historians over the years. The preface indicates that it was originally written in the late Ming Dynasty. This page is where the Eight Drunken Immortals begins.

Is this, Xuanji Mishou Xuedao Quan Jue 玄機秘授穴道拳 訣?
r.

[Tainan Mantis]

The version I posted is from Quan Jing Quan Fa Bei Yao.
The other version you mention Robert I also have and this portion with Zui Ba Xian is about the same.

I have not done a complete read through on the texts, just looking for relationships to my own Praying Mantis Boxing.
I have done a half way decent 2nd draft of the section entitled 20 questions and answers.

These books have been made available again by Yiwen (http://lionbooks.com.tw/Detail.aspx?ProductID=A-C125) publishing in Taiwan.

I used a small portion of the book for the first article I posted on my site.

Deception Within the Boxing of Shaolin and Mantis (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/pre%2009/2006/deception.htm#deceptiom)