Learning to fight: Part One- Forms

[MysteriousPower]

I believe if people want to learn to use their martial arts martially they need forms but not in the traditional sense. Movements in forms should mimic the actual technique or activity that needs to be done. Movements should be able to applied the same way the move is applied in the air. Moves that are linked together build rhythm in movement but do little to learn SKILLS.

Standard forms should not be taught formally as part of the curriculum. When students are doing sparring activities they will inevitably not be able to: 1. Pull of a throw/strike/joint lock technique. The move then gets isolated in the air by the student and drilled until the student's body mechanics have improved and he can pull the move off on command. Then he will be reintroduced to technique drilling/sparring. The "form" I mentioned should be done at home when the student has no partners for two-person activities.

If a student finds he cannot strike with sufficient power with a particular strike on the bag in the school the same rules apply. When he goes home he drills THAT strike slowly in the air(assuming he does not have a heavy bag at home) to develop the proper body mechanics. Then he returns to the bag the next time he is at the gym or school.

Kung fu has a lot of unique looking strikes that can and should be isolated in form drilling to be utilized for sparring. Isolate that strike with its specific energy(outward, curved, circular, down, up, etc) and develop it separate from the whole form if you are inclined to doing forms.

Forms are useful to develop specific movements/techniques. When people argue that it helps the body move like a particular style they can never explain why it all falls apart during sparring. During sparring this student starts "kickboxing' and gets told he is not doing wombat foo, wing chun, etc. Then he goes back to drilling that form to so that he can have the same end product again next week.


***

These are just for entertainment value so do not let it take away from the original post. Let us try to have a productive conversation for once.
I can see the typical responses already so I am going to type so I will just type it for you.

Tentigers: "I am so awesome and hung huge. But beyond that we are talking about kung foo. The traditional way was never to teach forms first. There was drilling, sparring, power training, AND THEN forms. It is only in the last generation that teachers have been doing this kind of teaching. I am so gigantic that girls love me long time. Oh crap I am ranting again."

Bawang: "Mang, sifus are just trying to steal your monies. STop doing the forms and stop the sissy wing chung."

David Jameson: "I agree with you 100% on everything you ever say, Mysteriouspower. You have hit the nail right on the head. Other than that I just copy and paste whatever tentigers says because I like to sound like a know it all too."

Earthdragon: "Your knowledge is so awesome that I want to have your baby."

Knifefighter: (In response to responses to my original post) "Another clueless kung fu guy trying to say he can fight while practicing dance moves.

If I missed anyone let me know.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You do NOT need forms to learn to fight or to become a good, even great fighter.
That has been proven over and over and over by all those systems that do NOT use forms.
That said, many MA are about quite a bit more than just fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Trolling troll is trolling.

Let it be know that I don't give a **** about your opinion.

[MysteriousPower]

Trolling troll is trolling.

Let it be know that I don't give a **** about your opinion.

That is not even English. I do not understand your post.

[MysteriousPower]

You do NOT need forms to learn to fight or to become a good, even great fighter.
That has been proven over and over and over by all those systems that do NOT use forms.
That said, many MA are about quite a bit more than just fighting.

Maybe forms is the wrong word. What if you replaced the word forms with "isolated movements"? You never ever practice something in the air just to have it "good" so you can try to pull it off better against a partner?

[David Jamieson]

I'm a fuking moron, please help me to learn a language other than stupid ass hole

there ya go trolling troll.

[MysteriousPower]

I consider shadowboxing to be a kind of form but not in the tma way of being a form. It is the random form.

[MysteriousPower]

there ya go trolling troll.

You must be so glad you took me off ignore. Why do you read my threads if you do not like them or my opinion? I know why. Because you are bored to death and starved for someone to talk to while you droll through the way day...right before you lose your mind at the bar.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe forms is the wrong word. What if you replaced the word forms with "isolated movements"? You never ever practice something in the air just to have it "good" so you can try to pull it off better against a partner?

Forms tend to equal, typically, a set of prearranged moves.
You are thinking of "shadow boxing" or "freestyle air boxing" ( a old greek term used by the boxers and pankration guys by the way).
The problem with beating the air is that it has NO resistence and doesn't hit back, of course the doesn't hit back thing is not the point but the no resistence is a huge thning because it changes the whole way a technique or series of combos are done ( typically).

[EarthDragon]

Movements in forms should mimic the actual technique or activity that needs to be done.
I compare forms to language, you learn sperarte letters, then put letters together to form words then words to form sentances and sentacnes to form stories.

this is like learning a form, it shoudl be a story and your interpretation of what you have been shown. This requires your flavor and twist. It cannot look like the application becuse the application will be simple to the point and sharp. Froms are for showing applications are for practical use and will not strem together in a flowing sentance but more like a word. Does that help you understand?

the other reason is that many old styles in China hid thier applications in the form so when praticed in public, these onlookers could not train against thier techniques. in the Chen village it is said that Yang xiao, looked through a hole in the wall during the night watching and copying the chen family doing taji as they would not show the real taji in public or during the day.

I hope this helps your understanding of application vs form adn thier each important in thier own right. It seems as though you posts come from a lack or understanding the whys and wny nots.. perhaps its time to seek out a teacher

[KC Elbows]

Lots of martial artist do yoga, doing many forms also does similar work in an activity specific manner, provided one is doing the moves informed not solely by the form, but by shadow boxing and drilling and sparring.

Additionally, doing the form reminds one of moves that are not trained for fighting yet, because the moves that are trained for fighting will tend to be better informed(and thus, cleaner) than those where the work is not done yet, so that, by doing the form, a productive person takes advantage of a chance to observe moves that aren't their bread and butter, or don't come up often for them(because the move favors the tall guy, and one is short, or vice versa, etc.).

In short, I simply don't agree that forms are, by definition, a waste of time. Doing multiple forms as one's core is, imo, but one? Not really.

It's not doing fight training that makes it a waste of time, from a perspective of developing fighting skills.

[MysteriousPower]

Forms tend to equal, typically, a set of prearranged moves.
You are thinking of "shadow boxing" or "freestyle air boxing" ( a old greek term used by the boxers and pankration guys by the way).
The problem with beating the air is that it has NO resistence and doesn't hit back, of course the doesn't hit back thing is not the point but the no resistence is a huge thning because it changes the whole way a technique or series of combos are done ( typically).

I think we are talking about the same thing. I did mention that you bring it back into sparring/drilling after doing it in the air.

[TenTigers]

I Tentigers: "I am so awesome and hung huge.
among the many points that you have missed, you obviously missed the part where I mentioned that I was jewish.
we are never hung huge.....
but yes...I am awesome. Thank you.


They actually found out that parrots do have an idea of what they are saying when they repeat words they have heard.
you...not so much.



I don't think MP is a troll. I think he simply acts as a catalyst for us to have enjoyable banter on the forum. He says something stupid, and then everyone gets going. He's like that Monday morning cup of coffee.
Kinda like George Burns did with Gracie Allen. He would say,"How was your day?" And she would talk for a half-hour, and then he would say, "Say Goodnight, Gracie."

[TenTigers]

Say," Goodnight," MP.

[MysteriousPower]

I compare forms to language, you learn sperarte letters, then put letters together to form words then words to form sentances and sentacnes to form stories.

this is like learning a form, it shoudl be a story and your interpretation of what you have been shown. This requires your flavor and twist. It cannot look like the application becuse the application will be simple to the point and sharp. Froms are for showing applications are for practical use and will not strem together in a flowing sentance but more like a word. Does that help you understand?

the other reason is that many old styles in China hid thier applications in the form so when praticed in public, these onlookers could not train against thier techniques. in the Chen village it is said that Yang xiao, looked through a hole in the wall during the night watching and copying the chen family doing taji as they would not show the real taji in public or during the day.

I hope this helps your understanding of application vs form adn thier each important in thier own right. It seems as though you posts come from a lack or understanding the whys and wny nots.. perhaps its time to seek out a teacher

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form "founders" made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own "forms" based on their own techniques.

[MysteriousPower]

Say," Goodnight," MP.

Why? What are you going to do to me after you turn the lights off? Gay.

[MysteriousPower]

among the many points that you have missed, you obviously missed the part where I mentioned that I was jewish.
we are never hung huge.....
but yes...I am awesome. Thank you.


They actually found out that parrots do have an idea of what they are saying when they repeat words they have heard.
you...not so much.



I don't think MP is a troll. I think he simply acts as a catalyst for us to have enjoyable banter on the forum. He says something stupid, and then everyone gets going. He's like that Monday morning cup of coffee.
Kinda like George Burns did with Gracie Allen. He would say,"How was your day?" And she would talk for a half-hour, and then he would say, "Say Goodnight, Gracie."

I take this as a great compliment. Thanks. You have to admit that my posts reach page 9 million. Whenever David Jameson starts a new thread only he and his mother post on it. No personality. :( Take a look at his weapons post.

[TenTigers]

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form "founders" made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own forms based on their own techniques.
decent point-I don't think the applications were hidden in the forms by the founders. More like the most basic applications were taught/remembered by whoever passed on the forms. Smarter practitioners were able to expand and extrapolate on the movements-less talented practitioners didn't learn "the secrets." Every once in awhile a clever person demonstrates other variations, and lo and behold-"secrets are revealed." Then comes the seminar and dvd's...

[David Jamieson]

Children get more gratification from breaking things because they get frustrated by their ignorance while discovering they are unable to build anything. this changes according to the intelligence and growth of the child into an adult whereby the change takes place and the misplaced pride is corrected.

The same is true of those who only go somewhere to be disruptive.

It is interesting to watch people who are actually retarded in their social development though, even if they are minimally articulate. lol

[Knifefighter]

Movements in the air should be informed by what one has already done against actual partners and opponents.

These movements should come AFTER one has learned the techniques through testing with partners/opponents. The movements should not be predefined, but should be spontaneous based on what one "sees" the partner/opponent doing.

[TenTigers]

I take this as a great compliment. Thanks. You have to admit that my posts reach page 9 million. Whenever David Jameson starts a new thread only he and his mother post on it. No personality. :( Take a look at his weapons post.
ahh...so this is just a lead up to your marketing consulting services.
We can piggy-back on your posts, maybe have a banner for our school, get more hits on our websites, links to our pages, etc.
"This post by Mysterious Power is sponsored by Ten Tiggers Kung-Fu Emporium and Kosher Salad Bar"

[KC Elbows]

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma.

Exactly what expertise do you have, or support, that supports this claim?

I know of lines that obscure silk reeling in sections for exactly the reasons mentioned.

I know of forms with excluded details that are always taught separately to keep outsiders out of the loop should they analyze the form.

Not all styles do this, but it is quite common.

If you established your base of knowledge and qualifications, perhaps it might be learer what you're trying to say, but it appears you are simply saying things without any knowledge to back them when you say things like that. It doesn't take knowing too many Chinese sifu to know that you're wrong.

[David Jamieson]

Movements in the air should be informed by what one has already done against actual partners and opponents.

These movements should come AFTER one has learned the techniques through testing with partners/opponents. The movements should not be predefined, but should be spontaneous based on what one "sees" the partner/opponent doing.

well, that didn't work out for Lesnar last night now did it. :p

if he had any kung fu, he'd be totally different.

[EarthDragon]

MP

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form "founders" made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own "forms" based on their own techniques.

its saying things like this is the reason no one takes you seriously out here. your comments show complete ignorance of the martial arts chiense or not.
perhoas its time to find a teacher and stop playing on the internet. or perhaps read a book about kung fu so you can at least know what your talkign about

[MysteriousPower]

Exactly what expertise do you have, or support, that supports this claim?

I know of lines that obscure silk reeling in sections for exactly the reasons mentioned.

I know of forms with excluded details that are always taught separately to keep outsiders out of the loop should they analyze the form.

Not all styles do this, but it is quite common.

If you established your base of knowledge and qualifications, perhaps it might be learer what you're trying to say, but it appears you are simply saying things without any knowledge to back them when you say things like that. It doesn't take knowing too many Chinese sifu to know that you're wrong.

I think what I am saying is quite clear. You just refuse to accept it because I did not present my "Certificate of life long achievement from (Chinese sifu) for doing(choose a style). Your so called qualifications do not make you seem more knowledgeable. A guy like you would not believe me even if I told you the sky was blue.

[MysteriousPower]

well, that didn't work out for Lesnar last night now did it. :p

if he had any kung fu, he'd be totally different.

No, but it worked for Cain. Brock Lesnar would run through and and all of the old tcma "masters." There has to be a winner and a loser in the ring.

[EarthDragon]

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Movements in the air should be informed by what one has already done against actual partners and opponents.

These movements should come AFTER one has learned the techniques through testing with partners/opponents. The movements should not be predefined, but should be spontaneous based on what one "sees" the partner/opponent doing.

LOL this dude is just as ignorant as mysterious power.... perhaps they should both go to thier teachers and ask for thier money back. LOL

[MysteriousPower]

MP


its saying things like this is the reason no one takes you seriously out here. your comments show complete ignorance of the martial arts chiense or not.
perhoas its time to find a teacher and stop playing on the internet. or perhaps read a book about kung fu so you can at least know what your talkign about

Um...my ego is not stroked by being taken seriously or not. I have said it before NOT to take me seriously.

Point me to a good kung fu book and I will check it out.

[TenTigers]

points well taken-I do know of several forms that hide very specific technique in plain sight, so to speak. I am not so sure if that was the original intent, but that is the end result. Also remember that Sifus used to take in disciples and teach in private, not a storefront full of students. If you trust your students, then what are you hiding? Another product of the overselling of TCMA.
I would post more, but I've got a school to run.:p

[Knifefighter]

Functional systems such as BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Sambo have all figured out that training is much more efficient without forms. That's why these systems tend to turn out stronger fighters.

Same thing is pretty much true for all human performance activities that require either partners or opponents from baseball to football to soccer to partner dance to shotput to weight lifting.

The only place that "forms" have a place is in solo activities.

[TenTigers]

Point me to a good kung fu book and I will check it out.
"Book?" dude, find a teacher.

[EarthDragon]

Um...my ego is not stroked by being taken seriously or not. I have said it before NOT to take me seriously.

Point me to a good kung fu book and I will check it out

your right MP my bad, I always think that you are honestly looking for answers to your posts and I try my best to help, then you respond in a silly way I and i think why did i waste my time, but then you make me laugh so i guess its OK.

go by the sword polishers record by Adan Hsu, its a must read

[sanjuro_ronin]

points well taken-I do know of several forms that hide very specific technique in plain sight, so to speak. I am not so sure if that was the original intent, but that is the end result. Also remember that Sifus used to take in disciples and teach in private, not a storefront full of students. If you trust your students, then what are you hiding? Another product of the overselling of TCMA.
I would post more, but I've got a school to run.:p

I think that certain things were only taught to certain students that the teacher knew were going to be passing the system on.
Beyond those no one really needed to know them or perhaps didn't deserve to know them?
Hard to tell with old people.
Irrelevant though, because many a great fighter came from systems that had no forms or minimal forms work, which casts a shadow of doubt of the effectiveness of systems that felt they needed to hide something to be effective.

[Knifefighter]

well, that didn't work out for Lesnar last night now did it. :p

if he had any kung fu, he'd be totally different.

Didn't work because he went up against someone who used the same methodology. Of course he would have crushed Velasquez if Velasquez was a forms fairy.

[MysteriousPower]

your right MP my bad, I always think that you are honestly looking for answers to your posts and I try my best to help, then you respond in a silly way I and i think why did i waste my time, but then you make me laugh so i guess its OK.

go by the sword polishers record by Adan Hsu, its a must read

I read that book. It is a good book. He takes apart the internal and external bs

[Knifefighter]

points well taken-I do know of several forms that hide very specific technique in plain sight, so to speak. I am not so sure if that was the original intent, but that is the end result. Also remember that Sifus used to take in disciples and teach in private, not a storefront full of students. If you trust your students, then what are you hiding? Another product of the overselling of TCMA.
I would post more, but I've got a school to run.:p

Pulling "secret/hiddern techniques" out of forms is about as effective as pulling them from ballet dancing.

[EarthDragon]

yes and he does it was well written adn gives a great poitn of view of martila arts... oh and he metiones out of respect my sigung, Wei Xiao Tung of ba bu tang lang

[MysteriousPower]

yes and he does it was well written adn gives a great poitn of view of martila arts... oh and he metiones out of respect my sigung, Wei Xiao Tung of ba bu tang lang

Since I have read similar kung fu books that you have read does that make your opinion of my opinions any better?:)

[MysteriousPower]

Pulling "secret/hiddern techniques" out of forms is about as effective as pulling them from ballet dancing.

He has a school to run with tons of people learning forms. He could not possibly reply by today.

[KC Elbows]

Functional systems such as BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Sambo have all figured out that training is much more efficient without forms. That's why these systems tend to turn out stronger fighters.



No, they turn out stronger fighters because they train what they fight a good percentage of the time in varied manners that allow for realistic usage, forms only precludes such, but not forms in and of themselves. Doing a form does not preclude someone from being a functional fighter, not training for fighting does.

[KC Elbows]

Pulling "secret/hiddern techniques" out of forms is about as effective as pulling them from ballet dancing.

Secret techniques are not technically in the forms, they are replaced with a marker move. Not that I care for the practice, but that's how it works.

[TenTigers]

He has a school to run with tons of people learning forms.

from your mouth to God's ears...:)

[Violent Designs]

you missed me.

Violent Designs:

what type of animal is the best?

answer: BLACK BEAR

[YouKnowWho]

Pulling "secret/hiddern techniques" out of forms is about as effective as pulling them from ballet dancing.
A true secret technique will not exist in any forms. That's why it's called "secret technique".

[Knifefighter]

No, they turn out stronger fighters because they train what they fight a good percentage of the time in varied manners that allow for realistic usage, forms only precludes such, but not forms in and of themselves. Doing a form does not preclude someone from being a functional fighter, not training for fighting does.

Sure it does... and that is exactly why you won't see form in the functional systems.

[David Jamieson]

The American school system has grossly failed the Insane Clown Posse. How else can we explain Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope's belief that the following are miracles?

* oceans
* stars
* mountains
* trees
* lava
* snow
* rain
* fog
* giraffes
* cats
* dogs
* childbirth
* sun
* moon
* mars
* milky way
* shooting stars
* ufos (wtf?)
* rivers
* plants
* Niagara falls
* pyramids
* rainbows
* pelicans
* magnets
* music
* water
* fire
* air
* dirt
* solar eclipses
* caterpillars turning into butterflies
* children resembling their birth parents
* crows
* ghosts (wtf?)
* the midnight coast

Yes, stay in school. It will help you.... A LOT!!!!!

Thanks to Mike's blog for the ICP review. :p

[KC Elbows]

Sure it does... and that is exactly why you won't see form in the functional systems.

As I recall, there's a guy on Bullshido that came up with a bjj form. His bjj didn't stop working because of it.

Doing yoga does not prevent someone from being able to fight. Doing a form that is in keeping with the fighting one does could not be worse for their fighting than doing yoga.

[hskwarrior]

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form "founders" made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own "forms" based on their own techniques.

actually you're wrong. CLF forms are set up with fighting combo after fighting combo. BUT...where most get it wrong is they try to become the system instead of making the system part of them. the true key is to be able to apply CLF without thinking and on pure instinct.

you have KUNG FU fighters and then you have fighters who use Kung Fu. you most likely want to be the latter than the former. trying to fighting with classical gung fu in a modern setting is REDICULOUS

[EarthDragon]

poll of ignorance..........
1. knifefighter
2. mysterious power


please vote now

[YouKnowWho]

there's a guy on Bullshido that came up with a bjj form.
It's not a bad idea after all. If that guy has 50 moves that he likes to use. He can teach his students as move #1, move #2, ..., move #50. Or he can link all 50 moves and make a form so he can give his students that form as text book.

[Knifefighter]

poll of ignorance..........
1. knifefighter
2. mysterious power


please vote now

Earth Dragon. Oh, yeah, he also gets the vote for fraudulent liar also.

[Knifefighter]

As I recall, there's a guy on Bullshido that came up with a bjj form. His bjj didn't stop working because of it.

Doing yoga does not prevent someone from being able to fight. Doing a form that is in keeping with the fighting one does could not be worse for their fighting than doing yoga.

Yoga improves flexibility. Forms instill incorrect neuromuscular adaptations.

[KC Elbows]

Yoga improves flexibility. Forms instill incorrect neuromuscular adaptations.

Longfist improves flexibility.

Some forms develop strength in the same manner as a squat.

One form, I believe from zhao bao taiji, does not link the moves, a move is done, then you return to empty, then another move from empty, etc.

Your blanket statement doesn't take into account most forms, only a particular type.

Additionally, some yoga has linked motion. Does this then teach "incorrect" neuromuscular adaptations?

[David Jamieson]

Yoga improves flexibility. Forms instill incorrect neuromuscular adaptations.

You really don't know anything after all. lol

That is the most awesomely ignorant thing you have said yet.

what forms did you ever learn? I suspect...none!

You know that there is forms that are hei gong? Oh wait, I guess you don't. You don't understand about forms that are more like yoga than they are for fighting techniques and that work on a person as opposed to a person fighting ability.

from the above statement, we can incontrovertibly know that all this time you have been arguing from ignorance.

right on man. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Longfist improves flexibility.

Some forms develop strength in the same manner as a squat.

One form, I believe from zhao bao taiji, does not link the moves, a move is done, then you return to empty, then another move from empty, etc.

Your blanket statement doesn't take into account most forms, only a particular type.

Additionally, some yoga has linked motion. Does this then teach "incorrect" neuromuscular adaptations?

Hatha Yoga (the kind that the majority of people do) comes in three flavours and good teachings use all of them in one session.

You having moving asanas, balance asanas and seated asanas.

[Knifefighter]

You really don't know anything after all. lol

That is the most awesomely ignorant thing you have said yet.

what forms did you ever learn? I suspect...none!

You know that there is forms that are hei gong? Oh wait, I guess you don't. You don't understand about forms that are more like yoga than they are for fighting techniques and that work on a person as opposed to a person fighting ability.

from the above statement, we can incontrovertibly know that all this time you have been arguing from ignorance.

right on man. :rolleyes:

Again, you can look at just about every single activity that has some form of objective measurement of performance to see the evidence that training is much more effective without forms.

[David Jamieson]

Again, you can look at just about every single activity that has some form of objective measurement of performance to see the evidence that training is much more effective without forms.

orly?

This coming from a guy who doesn't actually know any forms, doesn't practice them at all and apparently never really did and singularly focuses his interests in his chosen martial arts to the exclusion of all else.

[Knifefighter]

You know that there is forms that are hei gong? Oh wait, I guess you don't. You don't understand about forms that are more like yoga than they are for fighting techniques and that work on a person as opposed to a person fighting ability.

Forms that have nothing to do with fighting, but can improve a certain physical component, wont' hurt fighting. Most of them won't help, however, and there are more effective ways to train the various physical aspects.

[EarthDragon]

knifefighter,
sometimes its better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you dont know what the heck you are talking about then to open it and remove all doubt.

[hskwarrior]

Forms that have nothing to do with fighting, but can improve a certain physical component, wont' hurt fighting. Most of them won't help, however, and there are more effective ways to train the various physical aspects.

did we just witness a crack in his armor? did he just say something OK about forms?:p

[David Jamieson]

Forms that have nothing to do with fighting, but can improve a certain physical component, wont' hurt fighting. Most of them won't help, however, and there are more effective ways to train the various physical aspects.

again, orly?

you sya things that are highly simplistic like "yoga is good for flexibility"

well yes it is, but that is not the focus of it. And yes, yoga is often put together in a sequence to address the whole body. This is generally a "set". The set of asanas you do at one school will not be the same as another and there are different sets for different things.

In fact, Iyengar has a book of various different yoga sets that address various ailments and such.

there are hei gung forms in several chinese martial arts styles that are aimed at particular development to address particular aspects of a fighter or a combatant all the way to addressing a need for better health in a broad sense.

fighting forms are just shapes. They are not the crux of practice, they're the door. I don't think you ever understood that, but to be clear, doing forms doesn't mean you don't do bag work, pad work, intense supplementary training, sparring and so on.

If you don't like them because you don't know any or have difficulty understanding them or can't be bothered with them, that's fine.

but continually slagging on things you are not informed about really just paints you as a curmudgeon. You'll have your small group pf supporters who want to prop you for scrapping it up in a ring, but hey, there's kip dynamites for everyone isn't there.

I get the training curve for mma. I get that it is work like anything else. I get that it has a focus and that there is ways to map it over into street conflict. Why do I undrestand that? Because I try my hand at it.

When's the last time you stfu and listened to a different point of view?

Let's take your non-fight tussle about for instance. Now, I can see that's not a fight etc etc, but that's no excuse for the fact that that was a forms guy from a wing chun club who kept all your "high percentage" stuff at bay.

Explain?

[Knifefighter]

again, orly?

you sya things that are highly simplistic like "yoga is good for flexibility"

well yes it is, but that is not the focus of it. And yes, yoga is often put together in a sequence to address the whole body. This is generally a "set". The set of asanas you do at one school will not be the same as another and there are different sets for different things.

In fact, Iyengar has a book of various different yoga sets that address various ailments and such.

there are hei gung forms in several chinese martial arts styles that are aimed at particular development to address particular aspects of a fighter or a combatant all the way to addressing a need for better health in a broad sense.

That's great that they are done for health. Any consistent movement and stress reduction techniques have the same effects.


but continually slagging on things you are not informed about really just paints you as a curmudgeon. You'll have your small group pf supporters who want to prop you for scrapping it up in a ring, but hey, there's kip dynamites for everyone isn't there.

Pulling fighting techniques out of forms is where the counterproductivity comes into play.



Let's take your non-fight tussle about for instance. Now, I can see that's not a fight etc etc, but that's no excuse for the fact that that was a forms guy from a wing chun club who kept all your "high percentage" stuff at bay.

Explain?

3 takedowns + 1 stop in the middle because he was winded in a drill that was less than 5 minutes total length and specifically intended to do only stopping takedowns could be considered keeping "high percentage" stuff at bay only in your completely clueless of anything having to do with actual application world.

But thanks for proving how completely clueless and inexperienced you are once again sissy Davey Boy.

[KC Elbows]

Forms that have nothing to do with fighting, but can improve a certain physical component, wont' hurt fighting. Most of them won't help, however, and there are more effective ways to train the various physical aspects.

This argument is inconsistent. People are capable of entraining different modes of motion without it necessarily getting in the way of the other modes, so even assuming that a form has zero fighting relevance, the act of doing it can't seriously affect a second activity of sparring or fighting if the relation is zero. Otherwise, fighters would have to avoid dancing, for instance, whereas this is not the case, athletic people tend towards a varied number of movement related activities in one life. Even if the form is a fighting form, by your logic, if one is entraining through pressure drills techniques that also are represented in the form, and entraining the form, since people can entrain different practices without them interfering with each other, your argument, is, at best, that forms neither add or reduce fighting ability if someone is also training modern methods.

Further, if a form is informed by actually drilling and training for fighting, it reduces the number of inconsistent practices. Doing something activity specific, by your logic, is good, so the more one understands the fighting usage from shadow boxing, sparring, and fighting, the more activity specific their form would be, the more useful for training.

Since the styles are not form based, but merely utilize forms, with other practices, there is nothing about doing a form with it's intent in focus to cause problems in drilling and sparring. It is assumed that the practitioner knows that the form already has footwork in a context, whereas drilling takes techniques out of that context into more fluid, live situations(i.e. you're supposed to know that you will not be assumed to be in stance when the need for technique A arrises, your opponent might not choose to step this way but that). It is also assumed that the practioner knows that the strikes need to be trained with actual physical targets.

To use the music analogy again, practicing a scale on guitar may teach good fingering, but for a solo in that scale, it would, according to your logic, entrain a sequence of motion where there is no given sequence. The assumption is that one works both, but the solo(or the composition) is the goal, not the scale, and so, music is not scale based, it utilizes scales, but by not relying on them alone, it avoids the problems of entrainment that you say would be a given in any such situation.

[Knifefighter]

This argument is inconsistent. People are capable of entraining different modes of motion without it necessarily getting in the way of the other modes, so even assuming that a form has zero fighting relevance, the act of doing it can't seriously affect a second activity of sparring or fighting if the relation is zero. Otherwise, fighters would have to avoid dancing, for instance, whereas this is not the case, athletic people tend towards a varied number of movement related activities in one life. Even if the form is a fighting form, by your logic, if one is entraining through pressure drills techniques that also are represented in the form, and entraining the form, since people can entrain different practices without them interfering with each other, your argument, is, at best, that forms neither add or reduce fighting ability if someone is also training modern methods.

Further, if a form is informed by actually drilling and training for fighting, it reduces the number of inconsistent practices. Doing something activity specific, by your logic, is good, so the more one understands the fighting usage from shadow boxing, sparring, and fighting, the more activity specific their form would be, the more useful for training.

Since the styles are not form based, but merely utilize forms, with other practices, there is nothing about doing a form with it's intent in focus to cause problems in drilling and sparring. It is assumed that the practitioner knows that the form already has footwork in a context, whereas drilling takes techniques out of that context into more fluid, live situations(i.e. you're supposed to know that you will not be assumed to be in stance when the need for technique A arrises, your opponent might not choose to step this way but that). It is also assumed that the practioner knows that the strikes need to be trained with actual physical targets.

To use the music analogy again, practicing a scale on guitar may teach good fingering, but for a solo in that scale, it would, according to your logic, entrain a sequence of motion where there is no given sequence. The assumption is that one works both, but the solo(or the composition) is the goal, not the scale, and so, music is not scale based, it utilizes scales, but by not relying on them alone, it avoids the problems of entrainment that you say would be a given in any such situation.

If a form were to be done the way shadow boxing is done (specific movements that are not predefined and are informed strictly by previous practice/application done against partners/opponents with feints and other non-contact fighting applications involved), it could, indeed help, rather than hinder fighting performance.

Completely separating forms from fighting, would mean they would not hurt fighting.

However, as soon as one begins to attempt to take fighting application from forms, they become counter-productive.

[KC Elbows]

If a form were to be done the way shadow boxing is done (specific movements that are not predefined and are informed strictly by previous practice/application done against partners/opponents with feints and other non-contact fighting applications involved), it could, indeed help, rather than hinder fighting performance.

Completely separating forms from fighting, would mean they would not hurt fighting.

However, as soon as one begins to attempt to take fighting application from forms, they become counter-productive.

Again, none of these points support a big part of your argument, that doing forms harms one's fighting. Every point you are making, in previous posts and his one, does the opposite.

The first one, adapting the form in a shadow boxing manner, is a great idea, I'm stealing it, if it works out, I'll send you some lifts.

The second is apparent.

The third is a straw man. Technique is technique, and each must be entrained, and forms do not do this. I am not suggesting they do. But a form, as, on one hand, a means of warming up the body and habituating it to the types of motions the techniques tend towards, and, on the other hand, a body of techniques and personal notes culled from drills and all, covers the entire body of, let's say my kungfu, in from 2-6 minutes. I'm pretty sure you spend at least forty minutes of your training time steaming over compliant push hands demos on youtube, so how can my six minutes of going over my notes not be productive?

[Lucas]

Cuz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Knifefighter]

Again, none of these points support a big part of your argument, that doing forms harms one's fighting. Every point you are making, in previous posts and his one, does the opposite.

The first one, adapting the form in a shadow boxing manner, is a great idea, I'm stealing it, if it works out, I'll send you some lifts.

The second is apparent.

The third is a straw man. Technique is technique, and each must be entrained, and forms do not do this. I am not suggesting they do. But a form, as, on one hand, a means of warming up the body and habituating it to the types of motions the techniques tend towards, and, on the other hand, a body of techniques and personal notes culled from drills and all, covers the entire body of, let's say my kungfu, in from 2-6 minutes. I'm pretty sure you spend at least forty minutes of your training time steaming over compliant push hands demos on youtube, so how can my six minutes of going over my notes not be productive?

taai gihk yahn did a great explanation a while back. Maybe he'll do that again here.

[KC Elbows]

Cuz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because you failed to call anyone a swivel sacked lousy excuse for a hairy outgrowth on a hoarbunkle, your post will be deleted. Forum rules.

[KC Elbows]

taai gihk yahn did a great explanation a while back. Maybe he'll do that again here.

Which part was he explaining?

[Knifefighter]

Which part was he explaining?

The part where forms can ingrain inefficient neuromuscular connections.

[KC Elbows]

As an aside, but on topic to the thread itself, I tell students that they should use the form(those who are familiar with it) to work on fine motor details, trying for perfect execution, and so, do it at a speed where they think they can do it just right, but, as consistently if not more so, shadow box, trying to do the techniques and trying, at speed, to do all the details, and that they should not avoid screwing up in shadow boxing by slowing it down or leaving out details, but get used to the higher pressure and be willing to risk making errors, as bad form translates in shadow boxing into bad balance, lack of fluidity in footwork, no platform for power, etc, and so the shadow boxing must inform the form.

However, now I think I'm going to add Knifefighter's idea as a means to force each person to be training each tech in shadow boxing.

[KC Elbows]

The part where forms can ingrain inefficient neuromuscular connections.

He was suggesting that they can, or that they necessarily must?

I can see certain moves, like circle kicks, they necessarily must. But most moves don't have the same limitation for solo work, though solo work is always, like everything, limited, and not the primary focus for a two or more person activity.

I'm curious to see what he says.

[Knifefighter]

He was suggesting that they can, or that they necessarily must?

I can see certain moves, like circle kicks, they necessarily must. But most moves don't have the same limitation for solo work, though solo work is always, like everything, limited, and not the primary focus for a two or more person activity.

I'm curious to see what he says.


Not must, can.

Do the forms close to the way you fight for real (or at least the part where you aren't making contact, such as the way shadowboxing is done) and they won't hurt performance, and will probably help as a supplement.

Do them the way the majority of people do them, and they will hurt.

[YouKnowWho]

training each tech in shadow boxing.

solo work is always, like everything, limited,

I don't like to train solo moves. If I train roundhouse kick, I like to train back leg low roundhouse kick followed by front leg high roundhouse kick. If I train hook punch, I like to train hook punch, followed by underhook. I don't like to think 1 move at a time. I like to think ahead of my opponent.

[Knifefighter]

I don't like to train solo moves. If I train roundhouse kick, I like to train back leg low round house kick followed by front leg high roundhouse kick. If I train hook punch, I like to train hook punch, followed by underhook. I don't like to think 1 move at a time.

Combinations are great, as long as they are informed by the actual fighting. Single moves, should only be trained by beginners or when learning new techniques.

[andyhaas]

Most schools don't get to the applications for the forms enough probably for the forms to be of much use ... my first teacher taught drills (like 10 punches over and over again, then self defenses, then forms, then sparring).

This was so that he learned a bit about people's character (were they just bad guys wanting to learn to beat people up -- would they lose it if they got hit and go on a rampage, etc.) before they got to sparring.

Later, I think this traditional type of regime got used as an excuse by some teachers not to teach the fighting aspects or do sparring for years. I think some people might have gotten burned by teachers coming from China in the first wave out of there in the 90s or whatever it was -- the first Commies coming out of China in years because in China supposedly it had been against the law for them to do sparring or fighting with the MAs, and they didn't really do it. (The first school I went to that was like this was a Wing Chun school in New York -- that was in like the mid 1990s).

With 'Wushu' and 'tai chi' there wasn't much fighting and sparring to go along with it.

Anyways, I don't think forms are worthless. It's just that maybe not all schools do the apps for the forms, or the students drop out before they get to the applications for the forms. Or both -- I hung around my last teacher long enough to get a ton of apps but it took a long time -- like 4.5 years or something before he really taught me many apps for some reason.

Now, I think I agree with him. Even though it was like 4.5 years, given my level of practice in baguazhang (which was only like 1-2 hrs per day or something), I don't think I was ready really to do the drills and apps he taught me until he taught me them -- even though it was annoying to wait.

[KC Elbows]

I don't like to train solo moves. If I train roundhouse kick, I like to train back leg low roundhouse kick followed by front leg high roundhouse kick. If I train hook punch, I like to train right hook punch, followed by right back fist. I don't like to think 1 move at a time. I like to think ahead of my opponent.

I agree, you can't really shadow box too much with one move, and you want to be using every move you've got that you're likely to use, agreed.

[KC Elbows]

I tend to think it's easier to learn the form well if one is learning how to use the techniques in it well, and the process goes, imo, much faster.

Additionally, it's my experience that most of the ones you wouldn't want to teach fighting to are easier to root out by focused questions than by waiting. Waiting hasn't seemed to keep immoral people out of kungfu.

[andyhaas]

BTW, I though it was a funny side note that I took some of the forms in baguazhang, and took them apart to do them as solo drills, kindof shortened ... like certain kicks, combinations, etc...

In the end, I just went back to the forms, because it got boring doing like 100x the same fricking kick and combination over and over again.

[KC Elbows]

Years of martial arts forums have cured me of any aversion to the mind numbing tedium of repetitive practices.

[Knifefighter]

BTW, I though it was a funny side note that I took some of the forms in baguazhang, and took them apart to do them as solo drills, kindof shortened ... like certain kicks, combinations, etc...

In the end, I just went back to the forms, because it got boring doing like 100x the same fricking kick and combination over and over again.

And either way they are a waste of time if the contact and opponent work has not been done first.

[andyhaas]

I tend to think it's easier to learn the form well if one is learning how to use the techniques in it well, and the process goes, imo, much faster.

Additionally, it's my experience that most of the ones you wouldn't want to teach fighting to are easier to root out by focused questions than by waiting. Waiting hasn't seemed to keep immoral people out of kungfu.

Waiting, IMHO, isn't about morality -- it's about keeping people with short tempers out of sparring so they don't get mad and beat up on people.

It would be equivalent, I guess, to saying, "Don't go to the Olympics for weight lifting until you can lift like 500 pounds or something."

Scrawny kid wants to do it in a year, hurts himself and almost fatally injures himself trying to train it in a year -- kills his chances forever. Oh, well. Anyways, on to the next student that maybe has more patience. But at least in weightlifting they probably didn't hurt a sparring partner.

If they don't have the character to wait a certain amount of time to get a certain benefit, they're much likelier to be people who would do compulsive type of behavior such as either quitting, or getting angry when hit, not pulling punches, etc.

My last teacher, though, I was pretty much ready to quit because I was tired of learning so many forms -- why the heck do I need a sword form to learn the applications of an empty handed form? Anyways, he dumped so many apps on me that I had a hard time keeping track of all of them.

[andyhaas]

And either way they are a waste of time if the contact and opponent work has not been done first.

I'd disagree. If you don't kick right you can injure yourself, not to mention the sparring partner. You can train the kick with solo practice, a drill, a form, etc., before sparring.

Otherwise, if you just jump right into sparring, then it could be a problem.

It's not really that hard to hurt people -- it's harder to spar and spar hard WITHOUT hurting your sparring partner.

Anyways, That's just my 2 cents worth. Maybe if my first teacher just had us spar the first night, I'd say something different.

[MysteriousPower]

Yoga is guided stretching. You are kidding yourself. Just because you buy into the bs vegan dope smoking view that it is moving energy does not make it true. You cannot prove that it is more than stretching but I can prove that it does stretch.

By your logic ANY activity can gel fighting since all activity has "hei gung.". All hei gung means is breath work not "exercise that will magically make you a strong fighter without doing anything else.". Taking off my pants and putting it on involves coordinated movement. I am also doing stance work since all my weight is balanced on one leg. So I should do this movement 50 times a day and it will improve my fighting.

Wrong. My example disproved you and proves my point about forms. Doing the "putting on the pants form" will help me develop skill in putting on pants only. Specific single moves are good ways to train actual techniques.

[Knifefighter]

I'd disagree. If you don't kick right you can injure yourself, not to mention the sparring partner. You can train the kick with solo practice, a drill, a form, etc., before sparring.

Otherwise, if you just jump right into sparring, then it could be a problem.

It's not really that hard to hurt people -- it's harder to spar and spar hard WITHOUT hurting your sparring partner.

Anyways, That's just my 2 cents worth. Maybe if my first teacher just had us spar the first night, I'd say something different.

You can't get the form right if you haven't done both contact and sparring work. "Good form" comes from the actual application, not the other way around.

You can kick in the air for years, but if you've never kicked under actual contact situations, your "form" will be wrong... at least the form you need for application.

You can only have good form after you've done the application/sparring work.

[lkfmdc]

Peole who think they will get "bored" if they don't do forms obviously don't have a lot of material to work with

We do around 14 basic strikes/kicks which can be done in thousands of combos

There is various kinds of clinching, with many variations

There is equipment work

There is sparring

And of course there is the ground....

Trust me, it will keep you more than busy

[andyhaas]

You can't get the form right if you haven't done both contact and sparring work. "Good form" comes from the actual application, not the other way around.

You can kick in the air for years, but if you've never kicked under actual contact situations, your "form" will be wrong... at least the form you need for application.

You can only have good form after you've done the application/sparring work.

Now that ... that I think is a different point.

It's funny watching people do forms sometimes and they are copying old men, and they do their form like an old man would do it. It shows they never even tried to hit a freaking bag ...

Anyways, it kindof irks me that I don't have practice partners for my baguazhang, but with all the this vs. that that goes on and went on just to learn it, oh, well. Same as for forms schools vs. MMA, etc.

Anyways, if I get any business backers for my 'Bagua Palace' line of MA studios, then I will remedy that by teaching applications for baguazhang. (And if Dorothy didn't meet the Wizard ... LOL)

[KC Elbows]

Yoga is guided stretching. You are kidding yourself. Just because you buy into the bs vegan dope smoking view that it is moving energy does not make it true. You cannot prove that it is more than stretching but I can prove that it does stretch.

You like to talk about things you're not too familiar with.

Loads of yoga is motion based, with stretches a result of the motion. If entraining motion that is not fight based makes a fighter worse, then these types of yoga would be bad for a fighter, and they aren't, nor is dancing, nor is any performanced based motion, as long as they train their fighting, period.


By your logic ANY activity can gel fighting since all activity has "hei gung.". All hei gung means is breath work not "exercise that will magically make you a strong fighter without doing anything else.". Taking off my pants and putting it on involves coordinated movement. I am also doing stance work since all my weight is balanced on one leg. So I should do this movement 50 times a day and it will improve my fighting.

Longfist guys do one legged squats with weights. They are better for developing strength than ordinary squats by a long shot. Squats aren't a good exercise for fighters?

Most forms, if trained well, have squats trained from different motions that are actually used commonly in fighting in MMA. That many kungfu people don't train the usage and train it a lot is the problem, not the form.


Wrong. My example disproved you and proves my point about forms. Doing the "putting on the pants form" will help me develop skill in putting on pants only. Specific single moves are good ways to train actual techniques.

Apples and oranges. Putting on your pants works no attribute, many forms do.

[YouKnowWho]

In the end, I just went back to the forms, because it got boring doing like 100x the same fricking kick and combination over and over again.

I'm taking the opposite approach (not saying your approach is wrong). I'll never go back to my form training no matter how boring that I may feel.

I like to do 4 directions training (ESWN). Use combo A to take care the imaginary opponent on the east, then use combo B to take care the imaginary opponent on the south, ... I usually train 8 such combos in 3 months period. After 3 months, I'll switch to 8 different set of combo to train. In one year I will train 8 x 4 = 32 different combos. This way I can always have some moves that I can pull out without thinking. It's much more fun than just train one form over and over. If a combo contain 3 moves, 3 x 8 = 24 moves. That's almost just like a 24 moves short form. But that form keeps changing and never be the same.

[Knifefighter]

Longfist guys do one legged squats with weights. They are better for developing strength than ordinary squats by a long shot. Squats aren't a good exercise for fighters?

Single leg squats are superior for developing unilateral leg extension strength. Bilateral squats are superior for bilateral strength.

Specificity of training.

[KC Elbows]

Single leg squats are superior for developing unilateral leg extension strength. Bilateral squats are superior for bilateral strength.

Specificity of training.

Someone who can do, with proper form, a one legged squat, can do a two legged one. One who can do a two legged one probably won't be able to do a one legged one well right away.

Both are good exercises, regardless, but one translates a lot more quickly into strength for the other, and in fighting, it seems like dropping is often not wholly bilateral, except on certain throws.

[MysteriousPower]

You like to talk about things you're not too familiar with.

Loads of yoga is motion based, with stretches a result of the motion. If entraining motion that is not fight based makes a fighter worse, then these types of yoga would be bad for a fighter, and they aren't, nor is dancing, nor is any performanced based motion, as long as they train their fighting, period.



Longfist guys do one legged squats with weights. They are better for developing strength than ordinary squats by a long shot. Squats aren't a good exercise for fighters?

Most forms, if trained well, have squats trained from different motions that are actually used commonly in fighting in MMA. That many kungfu people don't train the usage and train it a lot is the problem, not the form.



Apples and oranges. Putting on your pants works no attribute, many forms do.

I have taken yoga classes so I have experience. It was about stretching and hot women. I never said yoga and ancing would hurt a fighter. It would not help someone become a better fighter.

If yoga and qi gong were so good to develop fighters than why can't people just do them and be good fighters? If you spar, for example, you will become a good fighter and will be healthy but in a different way than the qi/yoga crowd. They are healthy and fat. Fighters are healthy an toned.

[KC Elbows]

I have taken yoga classes so I have experience.

You're experience doesn't trump actual info.


It was about stretching and hot women. I never said yoga and ancing would hurt a fighter. It would not help someone become a better fighter.

Flexibility is often helpful to a fighter. And dancing is actually a good exercise in reading another person's motions, many boxers have said the opposite of you on that point.

Good athletes rarely do only one physical activity, and skill in one often does translate into skill in the other, though not expertise.


If yoga and qi gong were so good to develop fighters than why can't people just do them and be good fighters?

Squats won't make you a good fighter, but they help in the process. Lots of things help.


If you spar, for example, you will become a good fighter and will be healthy but in a different way than the qi/yoga crowd. They are healthy and fat. Fighters are healthy an toned.

Which are you?

[taai gihk yahn]

Yoga is guided stretching. You are kidding yourself. Just because you buy into the bs vegan dope smoking view that it is moving energy does not make it true. You cannot prove that it is more than stretching but I can prove that it does stretch.
bullsh1t - you obviously have absolutely no idea about what yoga can do FAR beyond stretching; and it has nothing to do with any hoo-doo voo-doo either: it's firmly grounded in current physiological knowedge base, if you know how to understand both systems appropriately and it has nothing to do with any vegan, dope smoking perspective - for example, my wife is an OBGYN - she teaches her patients yoga in order to regulate a variety of pre-partum, post-partum and non-pregnancy related issues that go far beyond stretching (athough of course when one moves into any posture, "stretching" occurs; but that's not the main "point"); she also manages a congenital neurological condition of her own, neurodermatitis, by doing a daily routine the culminates is a headstand - whre's the stretching in that move?; anyway -take a little time, do some research, come back with a well-informed opinion rather than your general reductive polemic;
and BTW, ANY time you move, you are moving "energy" - and that's from a physiological perspective, nothing to do with anything esoteric;
while you make some good points, you apparently have thrown out the baby with the bathwater; I suggest you go get it back before someone calls CPS...


By your logic ANY activity can gel fighting since all activity has "hei gung.". All hei gung means is breath work not "exercise that will magically make you a strong fighter without doing anything else.". Taking off my pants and putting it on involves coordinated movement. I am also doing stance work since all my weight is balanced on one leg. So I should do this movement 50 times a day and it will improve my fighting.

Wrong. My example disproved you and proves my point about forms. Doing the "putting on the pants form" will help me develop skill in putting on pants only. Specific single moves are good ways to train actual techniques.
a lot of hei-gung is China-sized yogic pranayama practice; it can have pretty much the same effect, although there is also a lot of silliness thrown into the mix; discerning what is of value can be fruitful or a colossal waste of time, depending on what one studies, with who, how, etc; for most people, running and basic calisthenics will be sufficient; for others, there can be significant value derived from a well-informed heih gung practice;

[MysteriousPower]

bullsh1t - you obviously have absolutely no idea about what yoga can do FAR beyond stretching; and it has nothing to do with any hoo-doo voo-doo either: it's firmly grounded in current physiological knowedge base, if you know how to understand both systems appropriately and it has nothing to do with any vegan, dope smoking perspective - for example, my wife is an OBGYN - she teaches her patients yoga in order to regulate a variety of pre-partum, post-partum and non-pregnancy related issues that go far beyond stretching (athough of course when one moves into any posture, "stretching" occurs; but that's not the main "point"); she also manages a congenital neurological condition of her own, neurodermatitis, by doing a daily routine the culminates is a headstand - whre's the stretching in that move?; anyway -take a little time, do some research, come back with a well-informed opinion rather than your general reductive polemic;
and BTW, ANY time you move, you are moving "energy" - and that's from a physiological perspective, nothing to do with anything esoteric;
while you make some good points, you apparently have thrown out the baby with the bathwater; I suggest you go get it back before someone calls CPS...


a lot of hei-gung is China-sized yogic pranayama practice; it can have pretty much the same effect, although there is also a lot of silliness thrown into the mix; discerning what is of value can be fruitful or a colossal waste of time, depending on what one studies, with who, how, etc; for most people, running and basic calisthenics will be sufficient; for others, there can be significant value derived from a well-informed heih gung practice;

Your wife knows more about vaginas than you do. :O

[KC Elbows]

while you make some good points

He was correct, The Crying Game technically is the highest quality IRA drama/transgendered relationship movie in the genre.

[taai gihk yahn]

Your wife knows more about vaginas than you do. :O

I don't know - from interacting with you, I feel like I am rapidly catching up with her;

[KC Elbows]

TGY has just put the correct in stirups and gently inserted a gloved finger.

[MysteriousPower]

I don't know - from interacting with you, I feel like I am rapidly catching up with her;

You enjoyed the gloved hand up your butt that much? I hope you documented your feelings in your journal.

[TenTigers]

YouKnowWho-do you practice or teach the walking drills of SC?

[KC Elbows]

On topic, without forms, you have no way to practice your dim mak and focus chi in your man tool properly.

[TenTigers]

isn't masturbation more or less a form?
It's kinda like practice, right?
Although, now that I think of it, all those years of practice didn't actually help my game....
maybe it would be considered more of a drill...
so..if I took all my best techniques, including "the delight of the razor," (secret technique-shhh!) and made a form...

[MysteriousPower]

On topic, without forms, you have no way to practice your dim mak and focus chi in your man tool properly.

I knew you had a little qi hugger in you.

[TenTigers]

someone needs to post the clip of Blankman
doing the "uhhh! Uhhh! Uhhh!" thing..

[IronWeasel]

I don't know - from interacting with you, I feel like I am rapidly catching up with her;




Ten points!:D

[IronWeasel]

isn't masturbation more or less a form?
It's kinda like practice, right?
Although, now that I think of it, all those years of practice didn't actually help my game....
maybe it would be considered more of a drill...
so..if I took all my best techniques, including "the delight of the razor," (secret technique-shhh!) and made a form...



...Northern Masturbation with it's big, circular hand movements.;)

[taai gihk yahn]

You enjoyed the gloved hand up your butt that much? I hope you documented your feelings in your journal.

-10 pts. for no-comeback

[KC Elbows]

I knew you had a little qi hugger in you.

My microcosmic orbit works the PC muscle constantly, which is good for long hard man meat.

Your communication style works your jaw constantly, which is good for long hard man meat.

It's a question of training goals, really.

[taai gihk yahn]

I knew you had a little qi hugger in you.

I'm guessing that you've had a lot more than a little qi hugger in you...

[bawang]

you missed me.

Violent Designs:

what type of animal is the best?

answer: BLACK BEAR

i dont get it

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho-do you practice or teach the walking drills of SC?
The only solo drills that I teach and triain myself is the 2 men drills. The only difference between my 2 men drills and solo drills is one has opponent and the other has not. I'm a true believer of "train as usage - kill 2 birds with 1 stone". The reason that I don't train the original SC 24 Si is because that was designed for beginner training. For example, solo form 1, 2, 3, and 4 have only hand movement and no leg movement. Solo form 5 and 6 have only leg movement and no hand movement. The reason it was designed that way because it was easier for beginner to learn. If a SC student trains those solo drills all his life, that means he has considered himself as beginner and refuse to pass beyond that.

Many TCMA form was designed to train beginners. The longfist Tan Tui is a good example. When you punch, you try to straight your back arm so your arms and body will be in a straight line. It's a good training for "flexibility" and "maximum reach". But it has very little combat meaning.

[TenTigers]

Many TCMA form was designed to train beginners. The longfist Tan Tui is a good example. When you punch, you try to straight your back arm so your arms and body will be in a straight line. It's a good training for "flexibility" and "maximum reach". But it has very little combat meaning.
Although I am a Hung Kuen instructor, I teach my beginners Tan Tui. The punch that you speak of trains good alignment for the jik kuen, or jab-similar to Dempsey's drop-step lead. Of course practically speaking, the rear hand would not be extended. It's a great learning tool as you say. I find that when I included it in my teaching, the students developed better structure.

[YouKnowWho]

practically speaking, the rear hand would not be extended.

Some people may say, "Basic is always important no matter how old you may be." This statement sounds true but if we realized that going through grade school 6 times won't give us a PhD degree. Sometimes we just have accept a B grad from our class and move on. There are more exciting training ahead of us besides just good alignment.

[PalmStriker]

I don't like to train solo moves. If I train roundhouse kick, I like to train back leg low roundhouse kick followed by front leg high roundhouse kick. If I train hook punch, I like to train hook punch, followed by underhook. I don't like to think 1 move at a time. I like to think ahead of my opponent.

I don't think I could train solo moves either, not just from boredom, though.

[Frost]

Someone who can do, with proper form, a one legged squat, can do a two legged one. One who can do a two legged one probably won't be able to do a one legged one well right away.

Both are good exercises, regardless, but one translates a lot more quickly into strength for the other, and in fighting, it seems like dropping is often not wholly bilateral, except on certain throws.


This is a false analogy, just because an exercise is harder does not make it better, a full squat clean is harder than a power clean but that does not make it better for fighting, a handstand press up is harder than a brench press, but that doesn’t make it a better exercise for building upper body strength

The squat allows for far more loading which increases leg, back and core strength and trains the stabilizer muscles and the over all body much more effectively than the the one leg squat, which means it has a better carry over to fighting, in other words who would you rather throw you a guy who can do weighted pistols with a 45 pound Kbell or a guy who can squat 500 pounds?,

As with conditioning strength is best trained from the general to the specific, a guy with a 500 pound squat will learn a one leg squat a lot quicker than a guy with a good pistol squat will be able to squat 500 pounds

And specificity is in the training of the art, not the exercises done in the gym. a one leg squat, or a lunge squat is not more practical when it comes to throwing than a full weighted squat: suplex’s, body lock throws, certain hip throws, foreman carry’s, flaring the double etc are all done with almost equal weight in a parallel stance

One leg throws are done twisted, off balance, bent over with a resisting moving opponent weighting well over 150 pounds, and that is now how you do a one leg squat is it? So you use strength training to get strong and practise your art to transfer that strength over

[Frost]

I don’t think people will ever agree on the usefulness or not of forms and especially their usefulness as it pertains to fighting: my view is you can see them in one of three ways: as a workout to develop strength and conditioning, secondly as a way to stay in touch with the past, or finally as a way to create fighting technique.

If it’s the latter you are looking for then you have to ask what was the form originally developed for and is it still relevant in this age?: was it a set developed to teach principles of the style and ways to generate power or was it developed for one person to pass on how they used the system to fight, one of the above might still have merit and the only be totally useless in modern times.

If it’s the former you have to ask is it the most efficient way to train the aerobic and anaerobic systems and is it the best way to develop speed and strength?

If you view it as a way to stay in touch with the past then that’s your right and no one will argue against it I don’t think.

if you view it as a way to develop fighting ability you have to be objective:
For instance is the set one which teaches principles of close range fighting which had real relevance in an era when most trained people also trained in a close range system, also sort a bridge to attack off and did not look to throw or takedown that much but is it relevant now? And if you are trying to make your style work against attacks and strategies that were not that relevant in the era your sets come from, does that not mean that the sets have to evolve with you as your method of fighting evolves, how can 1 part of the system stay the same as the rest evolves?

Likewise a set that teaches how a 6ft heavily built guy defeated other fighters that were smaller and not as strong and who fought at a close range without many throws might be absolutely useless in an age where guys throw at that range, and strike at a longer range and might be even more useless to a person who is not a lot bigger than his opponent and might even be smaller

Even if the set teaches a body structure and a way to generate real power, if it teaches principles of combat that still apply in this age then it probably has merit, my question would still be can we get that body structure and those principles in a more time efficient and effective way?

Most arts have at their heart a few core principles and techniques, would it not be better to drill these as individual movements against various pads and bags in order to get the structure and power down, and then allow the individual to free form them both on their own in shadow boxing and with a partner with varying degrees of resistance in order to get them to work for them, for their unique body type etc Is this not more effective than doing set forms with no real feedback?

And if its not more effective to do it this way why not, ?

[MysteriousPower]

I don’t think people will ever agree on the usefulness or not of forms and especially their usefulness as it pertains to fighting: my view is you can see them in one of three ways: as a workout to develop strength and conditioning, secondly as a way to stay in touch with the past, or finally as a way to create fighting technique.

If it’s the latter you are looking for then you have to ask what was the form originally developed for and is it still relevant in this age?: was it a set developed to teach principles of the style and ways to generate power or was it developed for one person to pass on how they used the system to fight, one of the above might still have merit and the only be totally useless in modern times.

If it’s the former you have to ask is it the most efficient way to train the aerobic and anaerobic systems and is it the best way to develop speed and strength?

If you view it as a way to stay in touch with the past then that’s your right and no one will argue against it I don’t think.

if you view it as a way to develop fighting ability you have to be objective:
For instance is the set one which teaches principles of close range fighting which had real relevance in an era when most trained people also trained in a close range system, also sort a bridge to attack off and did not look to throw or takedown that much but is it relevant now? And if you are trying to make your style work against attacks and strategies that were not that relevant in the era your sets come from, does that not mean that the sets have to evolve with you as your method of fighting evolves, how can 1 part of the system stay the same as the rest evolves?

Likewise a set that teaches how a 6ft heavily built guy defeated other fighters that were smaller and not as strong and who fought at a close range without many throws might be absolutely useless in an age where guys throw at that range, and strike at a longer range and might be even more useless to a person who is not a lot bigger than his opponent and might even be smaller

Even if the set teaches a body structure and a way to generate real power, if it teaches principles of combat that still apply in this age then it probably has merit, my question would still be can we get that body structure and those principles in a more time efficient and effective way?

Most arts have at their heart a few core principles and techniques, would it not be better to drill these as individual movements against various pads and bags in order to get the structure and power down, and then allow the individual to free form them both on their own in shadow boxing and with a partner with varying degrees of resistance in order to get them to work for them, for their unique body type etc Is this not more effective than doing set forms with no real feedback?

And if its not more effective to do it this way why not, ?


Nice post. I think it would be good for teachers to find out what the original purpose of the form. Did the original inventor invent it to catalogue his own fighting techniques? If he did than there is no reason to pass it on for memorization because new students have not lived his life. Did he actually use the form to build power, stamina, etc...or did he tons of supplementary exercises that made him strong already? Saying that a form builds power, fa jing, etc is a convenient way of having people do them and not question them. I am solely talking about this from developing skill in fighting.

Would the so called marrow washing forms help health and therefore help fighters in general? Yes, but that does not mean it will build skill in fighting.

[David Jamieson]

i dont get it

Try Cialis.