Information on 5 Animals - Ark Wong's style and ranks

[Grasshopper101]

Hello all,

This is my first time posting on the forum. I wanted to know if anyone can give me some insight on Ark Wong's Five Animals sash ranks.

The reason I am asking is because I've known a gentleman for a while now that claimed that he was a master under Ark Wong, and earned a red sash.

However, from the information I've been able to gather online is that a red sash is a middle rank - below a black sash, and certainly not a master.

The gentleman also claims that he trained for five years until he got his black sash, and an additional four years to earn his red sash, specializing in praying mantis.

I asked him about what I red online about the red sash thing, and he claims that the ranking system must have been changed, and that when he was there it was a rank reserved for a "master" rank.

Can anybody answer this for me? I also have the gentleman's name if anybody that trained under Ark Wong back then (I'm not 100% on the years - somewhere in either the late 1960's thru the 1970's) that might recognize his name and if they knew him or not. I was going to post his name, but decided to wait and see how the forum members feel about that sort of thing before I did.

Thank you

[David Jamieson]

sashes are all over the map when it comes to which one is highest rank etc.

anyway, some schools have gold as the highest, some schools use stripes on black and some schools have red as the highest.

It's not a set pattern of ranking all the time in every style and it is only ever relevant within the style alone.

a black sash in a kung fu style doesn't map over to karate or jujitsu etc.

There's a couple of guys here who trained with Ark Wong.
I'm sure they will respond.

I believe one guy is named Jim and the other is Ron and maybe one or two more.

anyway, why the public investigation?

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Grasshopper101;1052318.However, from the information I've been able to gather online is that a red sash is a middle rank - below a black sash, and certainly not a master.[/QUOTE]

I recall having seen a magazine cover featuring Ark Wong in the '70s. He was wearing a green sash. I doubt that anyone uses green at the top of a hierarchy of colors, so I assume he didn't have one.

In many schools everyone, including the sifu, wears red during lion dance and other public displays to show martial ardor. It has nothing to do with rank.

In my white crane school all beginning students wore black sash for humility. It wasn't an awarded rank. It just held your pants up.

[thailandgary]

No such thing............ The guy isn't telling you the truth.. I studied with GM Wong from 1969 - till he passed away. Belts mean different things in different styles. As far as GM Wong was concerned , colors didn't mean anything. But , black was given to those that were able to pass certain tests at the Hop Sing Tong Association , and then they were able to teach others... Ask him about that and what the tests were ............

[hskwarrior]

Hop Sing Hing Dai!!!!!! :D

[kfman5F]

As far as I know, Praying Mantis was not a style that GM Ark Wong taught and is not part of the Five Family Style curriculum.

[Dale Dugas]

red flags for red sashes in material that was not traditionally associated with GM Wong.

Hard to ask the teacher when they have passed from this realm.

How many more frauds will claim rank from a dead teacher?

[sean_stonehart]

How many more frauds will claim rank from a dead teacher?

As long as they're allowed left un-cupchecked, anybody can & some will.

Question is... who's really honestly willing to put "it" on the line to go square things up. As times are now, gong sau to cupcheck teacher over such things isn't like it used to be.

Only thing that can truly be done & even then that has to be specific in wording, lest we open ourselves to slander and libel, is put the word out.

[Dale Dugas]

People want to sue you for slander and libel are totally open in what is termed discovery for the accused to crawl up their backside and find out the truth and all the dirty laundry about said person in relation to the case.

Most frauds would not dare as they would be called out and found out.

I have been threatened to be sued by a few people and when I explained to them what would really happen to them in court, they backed off.

Its a scare tactic mostly.

You want to sue me, you are going to have hire a lawyer here in MA where I live and then get a warrant and serve me here in MA.

Most frauds are not going to pony up thousands of dollars to scare me.

[Kevin73]

Here is a clip of GM Seming Ma, Ark Wong's grandson and inheritor of the system. Not that it's definitive proof, but he is wearing a black sash in the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcV3OxX5mo

I have heard other GM Wong student's make mention that he did use a black sash as kind of an equivalent of what we view a black belt as for the US audience.

[thailandgary]

Back in the very early 70's , Y.C. Wong ,a couple of his top students , and some other Sifu from Seattle came to Los Angeles , and wanted to talk to GM Wong about forming a kung fu society ...He thought it was pretty funny , but we got a free dinner out of it ... My name is Gary Steuer , and I was invited to come along by GM Wong. After the dinner we went back to the studio on Ord st. and he thanked them for the dinner and that was that ... Thhe belt / sash thing meant absolutely nothing....At Chinese new year our school was always given to perform for the celebration in front of the crowds... Before going into the parade GM Wong would hand out sashes to all the students so that we would look colorful...That was all there was to it ....... You are so right , who would confront a fake after the teacher had died..... Truth is there are plenty ! I would like to have that chance !!

[Grasshopper101]

From what I've been able to gather, the sash ranks were supposedly gray, green, red, blue, and black, but maybe not in that particular order.

Can somebody who trained back then clarify those ranks?

I really would like to know if someone here trained there for enough years to possibly remember the name of this individual and if he really trained there or how long. I realize that many people probably came and went and this is not absolue proof, but I would like to know if this person is feeding me and his students a line of BS.

I can PM the name if thats what people would prefer.

[jdhowland]

From what I've been able to gather, the sash ranks were supposedly gray, green, red, blue, and black, but maybe not in that particular order.

Can somebody who trained back then clarify those ranks?

Um..somebody just did. They didn't exist.

[Grasshopper101]

Um..somebody just did. They didn't exist.

I was wondering if maybe that changed later on, perhaps in the late 70's early 80's.

People who currently teach the style use sash ranks like those, so I was wondering how they got them.

[thailandgary]

OK , Either this is just a joke or you have a listening problem.......... In Chinese styles ..BELTS DON'T EXIST ! If they do , they are strictly for in school use.........

[Kevin73]

Back in the very early 70's , Y.C. Wong ,a couple of his top students , and some other Sifu from Seattle came to Los Angeles , and wanted to talk to GM Wong about forming a kung fu society ...He thought it was pretty funny , but we got a free dinner out of it ... My name is Gary Steuer , and I was invited to come along by GM Wong. After the dinner we went back to the studio on Ord st. and he thanked them for the dinner and that was that ... Thhe belt / sash thing meant absolutely nothing....At Chinese new year our school was always given to perform for the celebration in front of the crowds... Before going into the parade GM Wong would hand out sashes to all the students so that we would look colorful...That was all there was to it ....... You are so right , who would confront a fake after the teacher had died..... Truth is there are plenty ! I would like to have that chance !!

I am not affiliated with Mr. Steuer (thailandgary), but thought I would plug his dvd for him since I enjoyed it so much. As Mr. Steuer (sorry, don't know your formal title to address you as such) has pointed out, he was student of GM Ark Wong. He has also produced a dvd talking about some of the basics of this system and the beginning forms. I would highly suggest anyone interested in this system (especially the Ed Parker kenpo folks, who wonder where the chinese influence came from) should get this dvd. I also point this out, to illustrate the fact that Mr. Steuer was THERE and is an authority on the ranking system used by GM Ark Wong and to listen to what he has to say in the matter. It is not heresay or what someone else told him.

http://choylifutmokhung.com/

[hskwarrior]

I was interested in seeing Mr Steuer's video. And it was interesting to say the least. but i have a question......

You said Mr. Choy, Mr. Lee, Mr. Fut, Mr. Mok, and Mr. Hung created CHOY LEE FUT MOK HUNG..........

I was hoping you can elaborate on this for me. Especially the Mr. Fut part.

[hskwarrior]

I was interested in seeing Mr Steuer's video. And it was interesting to say the least. but i have a question......

You said in the video below MR. Choy, MR. Lee, MR. Fut, MR. Mok, and MR. Hung created CHOY LEE FUT MOK HUNG..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwa4dFXgGZg

I was hoping you can elaborate on this for me. Especially the MR. Fut part. I ask because those were NOT the names of the last 5 surviving monks of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

[lkfmdc]

Mr Fut.....

heh heh heh heh

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mr Fut.....

heh heh heh heh

Mr. Han's cousin.

[Grasshopper101]

OK , Either this is just a joke or you have a listening problem.......... In Chinese styles ..BELTS DON'T EXIST ! If they do , they are strictly for in school use.........

I'm not trying to irritate anybody, or question your credentials (which somebody else posted) - which are impressive.

I'm merely asking because of what the "instructor" told me, and what I've been able to glean off the internet from sites where people who supposedly learned from Ark Wong have sash ranks, like this place: http://narrowpathacademy.webs.com/lineagecurriculum.htm

Or this place: http://www.shaolinlomita.com/

So would it be fair to say then that these "ranks" were created after the fact by people who opened their own schools, and Ark Wong never gave out any official sash or belt ranks, or declared anybody a "master?"

[TenTigers]

He must mean Charlie Fut.:D

[jdhowland]

Eh, Brah. You know what fut means in Hawai'ian English? I used to get snickers when I mentioned Charlie Fut to sama dem kajukenbo/kenkabo guys.

[tiaji1983]

My teacher lived and trained with GM Ark Yuey Wong. Traditional Chinese Martial Arts do not have belts. Either you know, or you get your @$$ beat. I was told there were no tests. The only true test was in the streets or in defeating challengers. He checked your forms, and told his students, "In the school you will sweat blood, in the streets you will smile."

[hskwarrior]

My teacher lived and trained with GM Ark Yuey Wong. Traditional Chinese Martial Arts do not have belts. Either you know, or you get your @$$ beat. I was told there were no tests. The only true test was in the streets or in defeating challengers. He checked your forms, and told his students, "In the school you will sweat blood, in the streets you will smile."

Just Sayin'

[bawang]

instead of giving belts have your students go through traditional disciple initiation. have all your seniors brutally beat him. if he no die, he become one of u.

[Drake]

Maybe it was the FUT CLAN?

Mr Fut... hehehe....

[Drake]

Belts are for the ego only. Why else would you have it if it weren't for stroking your own...you know...

Your own Mr. Fut... ;)

[Syn7]

Mr. Han's cousin.

oh man... that one hit me hard... im still laughing... funny

[cerebus]

"Suddenly, I'd like to leave your island!"

"That is not possible!"

"Bull Sh!t Mister Han man!"

*Fighting ensues*

[Kevin73]

Not a five family student, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

here is a brief bio of Ark Wong
http://www.southern5.com/WongSifu.html

[hskwarrior]

Not a five family student, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

here is a brief bio of Ark Wong
http://www.southern5.com/WongSifu.html

thanks dude, but this has nothing to do with the ranking system in question or the Mr. Fut part.

[Drake]

Mr. Fut owns you all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mr. Fut owns you all.

But he pales in comparison to Mr.Coq and let's not even mention Ms.Lab

[Kevin73]

thanks dude, but this has nothing to do with the ranking system in question or the Mr. Fut part.

I didn't read through it all the way, just where he got the training as it pertained to the "fut" part of the system.

here is a link on the "fut gar" system. Don't know if it is the same as in the 5 family or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fut_Gar

[Grasshopper101]

I didn't read through it all the way, just where he got the training as it pertained to the "fut" part of the system.

here is a link on the "fut gar" system. Don't know if it is the same as in the 5 family or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fut_Gar

Does "fut gar" or "fut ga" have any relation to the set of techniques with the same name in Kung Fu San Soo? Or is just a coincidence?

[hskwarrior]

which techniques

[Grasshopper101]

This is what I copied off a website (regarding san soo techniques):

Fut-Ga, roughly translated means "the way of the monk". The function of these lessons was to effectively coordinate your hands to work with your feet. Fut-Ga, unlike the defensive Ah-Soo lessons, are offensive and require you to approach your opponent from any one of eight different angles. Completion of the Fut-Ga Lessons will have doubled your efective power and the body extremities are now coordinated enough to work as a single unit. Launching multiple attacks, utilizing punches and kicks at the same time, is now not only possible but very feasible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supposedly there are a couple hundred of these fut ga techniques.

[hskwarrior]

Fut-Ga, roughly translated means "the way of the monk".

What? It does? man, i could have sworn in means Buddhist Family. And, the rest of it really needs to just come down.

[Drake]

It actually translates to "Strokes the fur of the chimpanzee ever so gently"

[Grasshopper101]

Well, I don't speak chinese, so I'll pretty much believe whatever.

I guess thats how I ended up learning from a guy who probably never actually trained with Ark Wong.

[Kevin73]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. A week or so ago, I was flipping through the book "Kung Fu Masters" by Jose Furgaras (sp?). In it was an interview with Ark Wong, and Wong mentions his ranking system and what order the colored sashes go.

Just thought I would throw that out there. I don't know if he used them for a very short time (during the interview period) or if he just mentions them as a red herring for people who claim to have learned from him that didn't.

[kfman5F]

This is from David Jamieson's Tejn Tigers post:

set three: (the five family elders)

1) Hung Hei Gun
2) Lau Sam Ngan
3) Choy Gau Yi
4) Li Yau San
5) Mok Ching Giu

Set three is likely most familiar to all us southern style kung fu guys.

1=patriarch of Hung Gar according to legend
2=patriarch of Lau Gar
3-patriarch of Choy Li Fut
4= Patriarch of Choy li Fut
5= Patriarch of Mok Gar

If this is correct, there are Family names for each... Mr. Fut, etc.

My understanding is that Ark Wong used different colored sashes for demonstrations only to make things more colorful.

[Grasshopper101]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. A week or so ago, I was flipping through the book "Kung Fu Masters" by Jose Furgaras (sp?). In it was an interview with Ark Wong, and Wong mentions his ranking system and what order the colored sashes go.

Just thought I would throw that out there. I don't know if he used them for a very short time (during the interview period) or if he just mentions them as a red herring for people who claim to have learned from him that didn't.

What were the sash ranks he mentioned?

[Violent Designs]

Does "fut gar" or "fut ga" have any relation to the set of techniques with the same name in Kung Fu San Soo? Or is just a coincidence?

AFAIK San Soo is a bunch of kempo bullsh1t and they kind of copied the history of Five Family Fist?

[Kevin73]

What were the sash ranks he mentioned?

I'll try and find the article again and post what he said.

[Grasshopper101]

AFAIK San Soo is a bunch of kempo bullsh1t and they kind of copied the history of Five Family Fist?

Where does this Kempo thing keep coming from? I've read quite a few threads on here about San Soo and kempo, and from what I can tell it was a misunderstanding about the guy having the same name as another guy.

I've seen quite a bit of Kempo and San Soo being done, and in my inexpert opinion, they are not at all the same.

Its pretty obvious that Jimmy Woo knew some sort of kung fu by watching the older videos of him - what that is I don't know, but it doesn't look like kempo to me.

[Violent Designs]

all historical records of San Soo seem pretty muddy though.

what is it, in reality?

[Kevin73]

Where does this Kempo thing keep coming from? I've read quite a few threads on here about San Soo and kempo, and from what I can tell it was a misunderstanding about the guy having the same name as another guy.

I've seen quite a bit of Kempo and San Soo being done, and in my inexpert opinion, they are not at all the same.

Its pretty obvious that Jimmy Woo knew some sort of kung fu by watching the older videos of him - what that is I don't know, but it doesn't look like kempo to me.

Ed Parker knew most of the kung fu people at that time period. From what I have been told by a student who was there at the time. Ed spent time with Jimmy Woo (founder of San Soo) and talked to him about marketing etc. Because of their business relation many people have said that Ed Parker was a student of Woo's or that Woo was a student of Parker. Neither was true, although I wouldn't be surprised if they did exchange ideas informally.

Ed Parker DID train with James Woo and worked with him in writing his book "Secrets of Chinese Karate". Woo also helped create the early kenpo forms with Ed Parker to give kenpo a more traditional feel to it as opposed to just streetfighting/self-defense techniques like he had learned from Prof. Chow.

[Grasshopper101]

all historical records of San Soo seem pretty muddy though.

what is it, in reality?

I don't know, but IMO its not Kenpo Karate.

[cerebus]

Ed Parker knew most of the kung fu people at that time period. From what I have been told by a student who was there at the time. Ed spent time with Jimmy Woo (founder of San Soo) and talked to him about marketing etc. Because of their business relation many people have said that Ed Parker was a student of Woo's or that Woo was a student of Parker. Neither was true, although I wouldn't be surprised if they did exchange ideas informally.

Ed Parker DID train with James Woo and worked with him in writing his book "Secrets of Chinese Karate". Woo also helped create the early kenpo forms with Ed Parker to give kenpo a more traditional feel to it as opposed to just streetfighting/self-defense techniques like he had learned from Prof. Chow.

There's where the misunderstanding comes in. Jimmy H. Woo was the founder of San Soo, friend of Ed Parker, etc. But it was James Wing Woo (a different person entirely) who created the original Kenpo forms for Parker & helped him write his first Kenpo book.

There is a chapter on James Wing Woo in the book "Nei Jia Quan" by Jess O'Brien.

[Kevin73]

What were the sash ranks he mentioned?

The sashes were

Grey (beginner)
Green
Red
Blue
Black (instructor)

Ark Wong (interview from Kung Fu Masters page 270) states that he only did testing at a minimum every 6 months and sometimes longer. All students had to wear the grey sash for at least 6 months before moving on. All students had to have achieved black sash before they were allowed to be an instructor.