PDA

View Full Version : Taekwondo vs WingChun



charles
02-05-2001, 06:00 PM
How do u feel a Taekwondo stylist would fare against a Wing Chun practitioner, and what strategy should they take.

rogue
02-06-2001, 02:01 AM
When I took WC we had a TKD guy there. He was a bear to fight for the pure WC guys, in the same way that a WC guy would be a bear for a pure TKD guy.

MonkeySlap Too
02-06-2001, 03:23 AM
It can have a lot to do with if you are familiar with the opponents fighting style. The more familiar it is, the more predictable it is and the more opportunnities you have to identify weaknesses.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Scott
02-12-2001, 05:43 AM
Yah. The entire fight depends on one thing, but I think the upper hand will go to the WC practicioner most of the time. Since many of you are familiar with the striker/grappler act, I will draw a parallel between the this and the question.

A striker and a grappler go at it. THe striker gets in 10 shots avoiding takedown attempts, but the grappler is still standing. On the 11th shot, even though the grappler has taken a beating, he takes the striker to the ground and the fight is over in one move.

Same way with the WC/TKD fight. If the TKD person can keep his distance and throw long range kicks and then get out of range, he can hold his advantage of distance fighting; but the second the Wing Chun guy manages to close in, the TKD guy is in his worst possible area -- The TKD practicioner is in too close to launch and kicks and the Wing Chun man is in his element - Fast strong close punches to the vital areas. I would expect the fight to be over as soon as the Wing Chun man got in close range. I don't think a TKD practicioner could ever defend against close range fighting, especially with a Wing Chun person. So if the TKD practicioner had alot of space and landed one or two solid kicks, he could TKO the WC'er. But otherwise, its just a matter of time.

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

rogue
02-12-2001, 06:51 PM
One problem with rushing a good TKD fellow is that one of their favorite moves is a back kick into a rushing opponent.

Scott
02-14-2001, 05:09 AM
Yah, I agree that of course Tae Kwon Do people have techniques aimed at covering their weak spots (close range fighting.) But then on the other hand, Wing Chun people have many techniques on closing the gap. Of course the more experienced fighter will win either way, I'm talking assuming they are of equal skill levels

You don't "Rush" the gap, btw ;) That's a BJJ thing. In Wing Chun you only move in with combination with a technique. IE; I block your kick and step in. Not to say that a back kick wouldn't drop me in one shot if it landed.

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

rogue
02-14-2001, 05:39 AM
I don't know Scott, when I took WC guys were always rushing the gap. I attribute this more to their failings than failings in WC strategies. But that TKD guy had a ball. :)

doug maverick
02-16-2001, 11:27 PM
well lets look at both arts, tkd's main technique's are kicking, but in wing chun you are tought to close the gap closing off tkd's kick and leaving him only to use low kicks and punches which will be deflected by a good wc fighter then the wc fighter will just strike the tkd guy with blinding speed and power knocking the tkd guy out for the count,

Godzilla
02-26-2001, 10:32 PM
I never new how effective the ‘back kick’ was until a Kickboxer joined our TKD school. Of course he started as a white belt, but he whipped up the mat with many of the higher ranking students.

I have been caught by several back kicks in TKD tournaments – some I can still feel deep inside my body. Since then, I have always practiced this technique. I learned, never rush a TKD guy/gal. Ouch!

Godzilla

rogue
02-27-2001, 03:58 PM
If only things always worked the way we wanted them to Black Tiger.

Robinf
02-27-2001, 04:35 PM
People seem to be unaware that Taekwondo fighters know how to use their feet for things other than kicking -- like moving (into position comfortable for them to strike, or out of the way of an attack, or...the possibilities of the feet in Taekwondo are endless).

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

rogue
02-28-2001, 06:59 AM
Hi Robin, how've you been?

Robinf
02-28-2001, 04:03 PM
I'm fine. I'm trying to stay away from threads like this where people chime in saying "Oh, a TKD person would..." When none of them really know what a TKD would actually do. But, this one seemed to be a rational discussion and I just wanted to toss in my experience.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

doug maverick
02-28-2001, 08:51 PM
yes tkd can use there foot feet for moves and stuff i should know i mean i study it when i was a kick and got my black belt second degree but then i found out that tkd doesnt work on the street that thug in the bronx will drop you ounce they see your kick and then about thirty other guys start stomping the crap out of you. say what you may but even do tkd is a good art and good in tournaments but when it comes to the street ummm.........lets just say thats thirty guys stomping on a 9 year 10 year olds head does'nt feel good at all

kalos
02-28-2001, 09:53 PM
I hold a second degree black belt in taekwondo.
When I first did some hard contact sparring with a wing chun guy he destroyed me.. every time. ( I did sneak one good kick on him though.. but that was more out of suprise than anything else)
Now, after only a little less than two years in wing chun I do the same to my old tkd friends...consistantly.
The way i view it there is only standup range in fighting... the range where a hit lands. At that point I move in, block and strike - and being that I can almost always move forward faster than my opponenet can move backward.. I follow if he retreats.
Generally I find it best if I avoid a few kicks first.. get their rythm down.. then move in on the kick afterwards.

Then again perhaps this is all b/c I'm very used to fighting tkd guys.

rogue
03-01-2001, 05:55 AM
It's funny how black tiger has a 2nd degree BB in TKD but talks of it in the third person.

Robinf
03-01-2001, 03:48 PM
Good catch. That is funny. It's also funny that as soon as I mention people talking about TKD who actually don't know TKD, 2 people post they're 2nd degrees.

Black Tiger and Kalos, what is the significance of the 2nd degree in the black belt?

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

doug maverick
03-01-2001, 09:09 PM
yo i don't know what the hell is your problems rogue and robin i have no beef with you so get the
hell out of my "face"

kalos
03-01-2001, 10:12 PM
I merely stated that to show that I have some experience in tkd. Wether or not it matters to you is not my concern. The signifigance is that I spent some time doing it and could be considered having some knowledge in the sport/art before I critique it.
I will also say that the last time I practiced tkd was about 6 years ago.. so I'm sure I'm not nearly as adept with it as I once was. (but when I sparred a wing chun guy for the first time I was still in training)
TKD was a lot of fun.. I enjoyed my time in it, I however feel that for real self defense it isn't the best art to go with. (Although it certainly helped me in high school against your standard bully) - I also feel wing chun exploits alot of the weaknesses of TKD.
just my $.02 though

Robinf
03-01-2001, 11:07 PM
Black Tiger,

I didn't think I was getting in your face. My appoligies if you interpreted my post as hostile. That was not my intent. I merely asked a simple question. If you actually were a second dan black belt in Taekwondo, you would have no trouble answering.

Kalos,

I appreciate that you were giving us what experience you had in TKD, but the experience we have as children with anything is vastly different than the experience we have with the same thing as an adult. That's part of the point I was making.

I also found it just way too coincidental that two people would claim to have second dans just after I voiced my beef with folks who state that a TKD person would do such when the person making the post really doesn't have the experience enough to know what a TKD person would do. If they did, then they would know that kicking is only half, Kwon, the other half, Tae, is hands. The full system is FootHandWay, or the way of the hand and foot--equally.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

kalos
03-02-2001, 12:15 AM
I see your point regarding the coincidence.. kinda funny actually but I assure you I'm not talking out of my butt here..
well.. the last time I trained in tkd I was 19.. not exactly a child.. had been training in it since I was about 12..
Perhaps your system is better than the one I studied..
really from what I learned all the hands did was block when it came down to it.. sure we knew how to straight punch, reverse punch, backfist, ridge hand, knife hand etc..
but it rarely ever showed in sparring..
I also trained in okinawan karate in high school (ueichi ryu) and found when I used the close range techniques of that against my taekwondo peers that it was very effective.
All that being said - I still spar regularly with the friends I made in TKD.. they are now much better than I was when I left and all adults in their mid to late 20's and I find WC to be so very effective against them its actually kinda sad. They just don't train for close range fighting..
Anyway.. I really don't want to style bash here.. just posting my experiences.. just so you know my tkd experience was probably with the worst assocation out there the ATA - probably the king of "mcdojo's"
go out and spar with people of other styles - full contact with gloves and headgear.. perhaps you will have better luck than I did making TKD work for you.

Robinf
03-02-2001, 05:00 AM
I see what you're saying, Kalos. Thanks for the rational reply.

Good TKD schools are hard to find. I study WTF, but even that, if you get a school that does only the sport sparring, you're totally missing the self-defense part of TKD, which is where it would come in effective against Wing Chun. The self-defense uses a lot of low kicks, close-in fighting techniques and strategies as well as strategies to create or take away distance. TKD in fuool is quite a full martial art.

I'm 28, so to me, sorry, 19 is a kid--not a "child", but, to me, barely an adult. I know I see TKD differently now than when I did when I was 21 or even 25. Likewise, I saw plays and books differently when I was in college and in graduate school than when I read the same play in high school. I also see myself and the world differently now than I did a few years ago, and especially different from when I was 19. I guess it's all a part of aging. So, to me, past experience with TKD that stopped some time ago is a bit lacking in depth, because something else, like Wing Chun for you, has taken over. You haven't really had to think about TKD anymore, just your Wing Chun.

I'm glad you found a system and a school that's working so well for you. I wish that for everyone. Taekwondo is not for everyone, but for those who it's for, it's truly an effective system against anything. What works is what you practice.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

doug maverick
03-03-2001, 10:50 PM
i apologies for acting so rash it's just that alot of people in hear like to start beef i know that tkd utilizes hands but the school i went to relied more on foot techniques but thats beside the point the point is that tkd is not a good enouth art to contend with cma's. even do when i was a tkd trainer i beat a few lousy kung fu fighters but think about like this wing chun is almost all hand about 70% hands 30%legs and it's all about destroing the oppanent do you actually think weather your a tkd fighter or not that you will beat a wc fighter lets get real robin your a cool guy and i like how you stick up for your art and i would do the same thing but while tkd is good for sport fighting it isnt good for the streets come on hve you ever wipped some guys out on the street

rogue
03-05-2001, 05:18 AM
Black Tiger, At least you're giving props to Robin for being a cool guy. That he is.

Sorry though Tiger, good TKD is as good as CMA. Same with Shotokan and other styles of karate. CMA suffers from the same thing that other arts suffer from, lack of good instructors. Instructors who know systems in their fullness.
WC is a very good art, but it has potential flaws if not done well. The same as TKD.

Robinf
03-05-2001, 05:02 PM
Black Tiger,

No problem. I've been on this board for two years (had to resign up when their first server went down, so the march sign up date is wrong) and I've seen a lot of folks talk about TKD, but they only studied the style as a child and only did the sport.

TKD is about destroying your opponent, even in the ring. World Taekwondo Federation allows knock outs. In order to knock out your opponent with your feet, you have to beat an opponent who, technically, knows what you're doing and knows how to defend against it. But this is just the sport. The self-defense, which should be studied alongside, but rarely is, is also about either rendering your opponent unable to continue or simply getting yourself away from the situation. Whatever you choose to do, it's about being in control of the situation and yourself. That's what you learn (or can learn if you learn real TKD) in Taekwondo as well as in any CMA or any other martial art.

Taekwondo fairs evenly against Wing Chun.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Brad
03-05-2001, 05:58 PM
I allways find it odd when everyone says TKD is only good for sport. I grew up around a TKD school(my dad took lessons for quite a while) and never actualy saw the sport style fighting until about 2-3 years ago. In fact his teacher was very much against tournements. They would fight full contact, no pads, no rules all the time. Pretty hardcore training.

Godzilla
03-07-2001, 10:25 PM
I think it depends who can dictate the fight. If the TKD practitioner can keep his distance then he should be able to defeat the WC guy. If the WC guy can break thru and launch his techniques, he may win.

To compare TKD to Aikido is interesting (I know we are supposed to compare TKD to WC, but…). In TKD we keep our distance. In Aikido we invite the opponent in. We want to get close in Aikido (like WC). When I trained in TKD, the attacker stayed away when throwing a punch. I would block/deflect/avoid and launch a counter attack (usually a kick). Now in Aikido, the attacker runs at me and continues his forward motion. He needs to be close in order to launch a counter attack. If I do not react he will run into me.

Which is better? To me the answer is, both. If I can keep my distance, I can win with TKD techniques. If my opponent gets too close, I hope to be able to use my Aikido.

Which attack is more realistic, the stiff punch thrown from a distance or the charging bull with his arms wide open? To me the answer again is, both.

Oh, by the way I really don’t have a BB in WC, but I thought I would join the fun.

Truly,
Godzilla

kalos
03-07-2001, 11:07 PM
how do you keep your distance? It doesn't seem to make sense to me in both my experience and theory.
TKD guy kicks, WC guy (I) either jam his leg with my own kick and step in, or I block it and step.. maybe I'll just rush in - (not giving the leg time to fully extend therby negating its power) and attack. Ok.. so as soon as he puts his leg down from the kick he's going to move back correct? Yet all this while I can step foward continuing my attack and I've yet to see someone move back faster than he can move forward. So perhaps he kicks me at close range (I used to be able to do a crescent kick to the head at close range so..) well he's standing on one leg.. if I throw any strike he's going to fall down..
Ok so he throws punches.. well at that point I think most of us can agree he's playing my game and I'm going to have superior reactions to this..
same with close range low kicks..
I really think it comes down to he better get one good hard kick in very quickly.. enough to end the fight there.

keep in mind my theory's above are based apon the idea that both stylists have similiar training times.. and are only my opinions based apon my experience doing full contact sparing with taekwondo students and friends.

Robinf
03-08-2001, 04:19 PM
Kalos,

Your theory is also based on the wrong assumption that TKD folks only kick. We also have close in fighting strategies that use low kicks or no kicks at all, but use hands or elbows, trapping or throwing, or simply blocking and punching.

As far as distance for kicking, any TKDist worth anything in TKD knows how to create enough distance or diminish too much distance if he/she wants to kick. The TKDist also knows how to side step and punch or elbow, or grab and throw, or even kick while in close. TKDists actually know how to defend themselves.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

kalos
03-08-2001, 08:44 PM
I'm aware that a TKDis can punch and move. We all can.. any martial art has punching, elbows and sidestepping in it..
however the topic is a comparison between WC and TKD and I'm talking about the speciality of each style. Close range in-fighting is the specialty of WC. Kicking is the specialty of TKD, particularly long range kicks.
My theory was based on the assumption that each stylist would use his/her specialty, as to do otherwise would most likely end in defeat. I don't know how you train Robin, but I've never met a TKDist who trained for close range fighting anywhere close to the amount of time a WCist would.

Also my question was an honest one.
"As far as distance for kicking, any TKDist worth anything in TKD knows how to create enough distance or diminish too much distance if he/she wants to kick. "
how?
my above argument was based on the idea that the TKDist was going to try for distance.. if your saying my argument would not work explain how.
Your reply seems to merely say.. "nope, we can fight with the best of them" without saying how..
I'm honestly intrested in the discussion, not just saying "my style kicks a$$" ;)

respectfully,
kalos

Godzilla
03-09-2001, 01:02 AM
In any school, the distance you spar or practice at is the distance you will be most comfortable with when actually fighting. In TKD, if your opponent moves forward, you may step back or sidestep. Always keeping proper distance is part of the art. I’m fairly certain part of WC’s strategy is proper distancing.

Most of the kicks and punches in TKD are very strong and focused. If they land, your opponent will be hurt. It is my opinion, during one of these committed TKD strikes, the TKDer is vulnerable ONLY IF your opponent can spot these openings. For example: during a roundhouse kick, your opponent drops and sweeps your supporting leg.

Perhaps one of WC’s weaknesses is entering against a TKD guy/gal. If they get caught, they are out. I have witnessed (and participated in) several knock outs (I have been knocked out – roundhouse to the kidney area – lights out). I have also walked into a spinning back kick – again lights out. Both times while entering to throw a punch.

To me, it’s all about who can control the fight. Sometimes all that’s needed is the look in your eyes.

If I had to pick a winner, I would call it a draw.

Truly,
Godzilla

Don’t think. Do.
You’ll never plough a field by turning it over in your head.

rogue
03-09-2001, 03:56 AM
Kalos, Of course one arts going to look bad if you keep it to only one small group of techniques.

I have taken a bit of WC and think it's a good art, but it does have flaws. Most WC guys that I've met are horrible kickers, btw so am I, and really should practice more against Muay Thai and TKD people.

I think a WC person would have problems using a stop kick against a TKD or karate kick due to the high tight chambering that is used. I have tried jamming back/side kicks and ended up with some cracked ribs, a lot of power gets generated in a short space by someone who's a good kicker. When a TKD person turns their back that's when you have to watch out, since they may be creating space for a kick.

So far the best techniques against a good TKD kicker that I've found are
1) get out of the way, re-direct the kick a bit and then counter (straight TKD technique),
2) move in fast, catch and trap it, it's risky and it'll hurt but maybe you'll get the takedown,
3) use the same defenses that Muay Thai fighters use.

But if a WC guy can get up close and personal then he'd be in good position to use his tools to take the TKD person.

Godzilla
03-09-2001, 08:16 PM
I have a white belt in Aikido and am very proud of it!

Truly,
Godzilla

Robinf
03-10-2001, 03:46 AM
Kalos,

Sparring in TKD, you create or diminish distance by staying on the balls of your feet, not flat foot. If your opponent moves in, you slide back, side step to create distance, you can spin kick, axe kick over the blind shoulder for close in kicking, of course an elbow, punch, chop, spearhand, etc., will also do very well in this close up situation (depending on what's thrown at you). If your opponent moves back, slide in or "skip" in with a kick.

The first thing that's taught in TKD sparring is to recognize space (empty and full) and how to deal with it. Wing Chun doesn't examine space like this? I assumed fighting arts all looked at space.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

omegapoint
03-11-2001, 04:33 AM
Whassup ? First off I would just like to ask one question . What is the relevance of this query ? Since when did any sport style ( with the exception of BJJ and Western Boxing ) have the substance ( mental and physical ) of a true combat discipline . If some of you witnessed traditional practitioners being handled by TKD enthusiast , then you can probabaly fault your Sifu's teaching ability , or the students lack of skill or dedication . TKD is just basically diluted Shotokan , with integrated high kicks . Hell , one versed in true combat science should be able to handle any conceivable street situation , let alone a limited "sparring" session . Of course innate ability is a contributing factor , but a M.A. should have little problem dealing with a similarly skilled sports "artist" . I see that many contributors to this forum love to use loose analogies , so allow me to use one of my own . Of the thousands of TKD practitioners out there ( past and present ) ; how many of them made a significant change in the totality of mankinds hand-to-hand combat philosophy that would be comparable to Bruce Lee's . All this "MMA" bull and the modern approach to martial training can be attributed to Sifu Lee , because although not his original idea , he nonetheless popularized "cross-training" . Mr. Lee was a Wing Chun stylist originally , was he not . I can hear you TKD students out there yelling , "Hey what about Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho ?" , well many would say that their contributions have been more Capitilistic than Stylistic . So remember this : Alchemy has evolved like the system which espouses it to this day , but the tenet remains the same - to take something of little or no value and transmute it into something of apparent value . Just because you've been brainwashed to believe something is true doesn't make it so . Throughout HIStory man has made many incorrect assumptions about many things . All I know is that a M.A. should be able to handle a sport fighting enthusiast 95% of the time provided they are of similar size , speed , strength , etc.. Naw'mean ??!!

rogue
03-11-2001, 07:06 AM
Well to put it mildly, many sport arts spend more time working on things like distancing, hitting and being hit than many non-sport arts. Knowing a technique that's effective is different from being able to use it live.

Also to say that TKD(which version) is watered down Shotokan(which is watered down Okinawan karate, which may be watered down southern White Crane, neh?) and then expound about Bruce Lee whose Jun Fan is watered down Wing Chun is quite funny. If not for Lees movie star status he'd had been just another teacher.

Robinf
03-11-2001, 04:51 PM
omegapoint said: Throughout HIStory man has made many incorrect assumptions about many things.

Since you made it a point that it's HIStory and that MAN is incorrect, then you must be incorrect. Seeing that I'm a woman, then I must be correct, since it's not HERstory, but HIStory that MAN got wrong.

Taekwondo is not a sport, it is a martial art for self-defense. Bruce Lee died before he could become anything worth mentioning.

Robin

omegapoint
03-16-2001, 01:33 AM
Rogue:
You are correct in assuming that TKD is diluted sport karate , but any true practitioner knows that Okinawan Karate is a combo of Gyaku-te and Tuite (Ryukyuan striking and grappling arts) and Fukien Crane Chuan Fa . The Okinawan styles of Kojo Ryu and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu are 2 prime examples of this amalgamation . Maybe the way I should have worded it was both TKD and Shotokan are derivatives of the parent style(s) (Shaolin Chuan Fa and Shuri Te originally known as Suidi). Well in all actuality that places them further away from the intent of the progenitors. Does that make more sense ?
Robin:
Good try at wordplay but the reason I emphasized the HIS in history was to point to the fact that individual interpretation (of the past) has lead us down the road of failure and disappointment many times . I was'nt being gender biased . It's your world baby, go ahead and manifest your destiny. That doesn't make it true , especially for someone other than Robin. The M.A.s I've studied for over 20 yrs. have little use for commercialism and notariety, and tend to focus on combat science. These specific fighting philosophies have changed little over hundreds of years and don't need the yellow pages or the ho-lympics to propagate them . Ya' feel me?

rogue
03-16-2001, 03:57 AM
"Well in all actuality that places them further away from the intent of the progenitors."

So any art derived from another is inferior because it's further from the intent of the one before it? So that means JKD sucks? Or Goju, Defendo, Mantis, Pek Kwar, Judo, or even Wing Chun since all derive from something else? I think not. The intent is not dictated by the one before it but by the way it is practiced currently.

Also what would make boxing an exception to your rule about sport styles? Boxing has even more limited tools and targets than does say the Sabaki Challenge, Muay Thai, San Soo or NHB events.

What Combat science arts have you studied over the last 20 years and why did change styles.

Also how often to you spar?

omegapoint
03-20-2001, 01:15 AM
Dear Rogue:
I was a military brat who moved around every 3-4 years until my dad was stationed in the Philippines. I started taking Judo when I was 7 yrs. old until the base we were at closed down and we had to PCS (premanent change of station). I was enrolled in Judo for 3.5 yrs.. When I was 9-10 my pops relocated to San Antonio, Tx.. I went to a local eastside school and even in elementary kids gave me grief. I tried my best to stay out of trouble, but some antiwhite (racists are racists) fools always "perturbed" me. My best friend AL was taking boxing at the time and I decided to join the "Y". I also continued with my Judo training at the YMCA, but being less-versed in striking I took a fancy to the "sweet science". My skills as a basic fighter continued to increase and by the time I was 14, the altercations I participated in at school decreased to zero. Just as I was gaining popularity (and consequently having not to fight) my dad was reassigned to the Philippines.
For a complete story on that see my reply a few months ago on KFO. Needless to say, the environment there was electric; lots of static (especially off-base). When Hip Hop became a phenomenon in the early 80's my younger brother and I took to it like it was the best thing since Bruce Lee (heh, heh, heh, I had to throw that in) and became quite adept at both "popping" and "breaking". As a result we entered many competitions on and off base and more often than not, emerged victorious. This led to much animosity towards us (especiallly by a few of the locals who definitely needed the money more than us). We even had local low-lifes show up on-base waiting to "kill us" after school. For a year we had to be especially careful about going off-base. Many of our friends who liked to "club" and drink took surrogate beatings and death threats as a result of our not being there.This led to me (and my brother) taking our first Shorin Ryu class. The style we took is called Kobayashi or Shorinkan. Choshin Chibana was the founder, and his direct student Shuguro Nakazato taught our Sensei. Kobayashi is considered to be "sport" or "school boy" karate (as is most), but many of the orthodox fighting techniques were/are still taught. Many of the early pioneers (Lewis, Wallace, etc.) of American kickboxing were Shorin Ryu (Matsubayashi, Shobayashi, and Kobayashi). We also (like TKD) utilized high kicks, but were always taught what was for the Dojo, and what was for the street. I continued taking Shorin Ryu Shorinkan for 6 more years, until we moved back to the states. In addition to learning Shaolin my Sensei was also a Sifu in Filipino/Chinese Kuntao. I found this style to be similar in principle to Shorin, but with more emphasis on the circular, rather than a combo of linear and circular techs (although it did contain some). Whilst there I sparred with Goju Ryu, Kajukenbo, Shotokan, Hung Gar Kung Fu, and most especially TKD practitioners (we had an integrated school that taught different styles at different times, and sometimes at the same time-AAMA). Each art had their good points. The TKD stylist were very fast and flexible with their legs, but their hand techniques were less than average when compared to the other stylist. There was this African-American Security Policeman (TKD B.B.) who was Chuck Norris awesome, but he too had studied various styles. Listen, I'll be the first one to tell you that the style doesn't make the stylist, and that the reverse is true, but some styles are just more practical than others, and are more conducive to realistic situations. TKD is cool, but it isn't the only sport that teaches sound fighting principles. Where I eventually settled down after college there are no traditional dojos (and I live in the 8th largest Metro-area) so I have to drive over 2 Hrs. to train in Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seitu Karate JUTSU. From this style I've learned there is no "DO" other than the "DO" of "BUJUTSU". I attained my Nidan in Kobayashi, and right now I'm tightening up my theory and technique by studying Orthodox Shorin. I've been through and seen a lot of b.s. in my life and I don't understand what people in the States think Kara (China/Tang) and Te (Ryukyuan Ti or hand techniques) mean. Sparring is good for kids to learn distance, footwork, balance, coordination but when it comes to sparring it's hard to practice like you'll play (in the street). That's where 2 man drills have as much, if not more, validity as an effective fighting tool. I can still "roll" and spar, but i think I have that game down. Give credit where credit is due and quit with all the "smoke and mirrors". Wing Chun is a legitimate JUTSU (Science), TKD and most other striking sports are (like boxing and judo) just that:sports. I'm pretty sure most athletes can take care of themselves, but they don't claim to be WAR (Martial) Artists.

rogue
03-22-2001, 05:15 AM
Good background.
Most styles of MA were never really WAR arts though, most were used mostly for contests, including CMA and OMA. There is a combat version of TKD that was used by the Korean Tiger Brigade(?) during the Vietnam war. Very deadly group of guys.

doug maverick
03-23-2001, 08:06 PM
i'm use to fighting against tkd fighters karate fighters and even muay thai boxers me and my friend spar all the time and all though tkd(traditional style not the sport) is okay it can't match up two alot of cma style's any way you slice it the kick got power and stuff but everyone on this thread is forgeting one thing one true factor that will make wing chun win you see my dads been studing wing chun for almost ten years he studied under my current sifu sifu v.a. thomas and i spoke to them both on this and they said it will probable be a fair macth but wing chun is a soft style of kung fu just look at the sil lum tao it's not very long but i saw my dad practice it and he did the form for a hole hour. he said the wing chun nuetrilizes the opponents attack then uses his own force to attack them back this is true wc not some of that crap thats out there now.

inyo
03-25-2001, 07:20 PM
the style is irrelevant.the best fighter would win.

doug maverick
03-29-2001, 08:40 PM
true be also on the nside of tkd most wing chun fighters are use to fighting wing chun fighters so when they come up against another style of ma they loose,i use to think wc was corniest ma i've seen until i met sifu thomas he know's well over 12 systems so he can combat them all he's good.

fungku
04-02-2001, 09:46 PM
OK, TKD is a good art... ok, but is it a COMPLETE ART?

Do you train what would happen if someone is 'In your face'?

You think you could just jump back into long range again? You don't think the WC guy will stay in your face once he gets there?

Did anyone ever hear of the stopping the kick where it starts. The WC guys (if they are any good) will have trained kicking someone closer to where the kick begins to stop it. Someone is about to throw a kick, you kick them in the waist (or dan tien area) it neutralizes the kick. If the kick has started you kick them in the thigh (preferably the knee actually). If you can't get either of those, you have to move the target (which is you). I've seen ppl kick and their opponent takes a step towards them when they kick.. uh oh... heheh the kicker is in a bad situation...

heheh, anyway

i just wanna know what a TKD guy would do, if a WC got in close, or do they think they could keep the WC far away the whole time?

Robinf
04-02-2001, 10:00 PM
shaolin.cjb.net,

There's also a stop kick in TKD. Off the top of my head, it's practiced most in Kumagang form(please pardon the spelling). If TKD folks pay attention to their forms and actually used what was in their forms, they would have a complete, stand up arsenal.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

fungku
04-02-2001, 10:12 PM
A lot of the Chinese martial arts (so i've read and heard) were developed from Shaolin Monks who trained people (like peasants who were fighting government) for war.

High, jumping kicks are used, not for people standing on the ground, but for people on horse-back They are very rarely practical for use in hand-to-hand combat. High kicks are also too dangerous to use in hand-to-hand combat.

They may be effective to fight an inexperienced fighter, but you should always assume the fighter knows what he is doing, unless you find out otherwise. You NEVER start off a fight with a committed high kick, BIG MISTAKE! Even if you ar efast, you are still extremely vulnerable for a short amount of time, and an experienced, and quick martial artist will take advantage of that.

" As long as we have 2 legs and 2 feet, there will only be one style of fighting" -> true, but that doesn't make everyoen with 2 hands and 2 feet a good fighter. You have to train practically to fight practically. And personally i feel that 'MOST' TKD schools are not practical and 'most' Sport re;ated MAs are impractical.

But hey, I always believe it's not the martial art, it's the person applying the martial techniques...

It ALL depends on how much, and most importantly HOW you train your techniques...

fungku
04-02-2001, 10:17 PM
The hardest thing to defend against is something you've never seen

rogue
04-03-2001, 05:52 AM
Why assume that TKD always uses a high kick in a fight?

As far as in-fighting, TKD does contain eye gouges, knees, elbows, foot stomps, locks, breaks and throws, at least in the original version and the better modern schools.

Robinf
04-03-2001, 03:21 PM
shaolin.cjb.net,

What does your post have to do with the stop kick? You said there was one in Wing Chun and I was pointing out there was one in TKD.

I'll be honest with you, your post proves your ignorance of TKD. Now, I bet you're going to tell me that you're an Nth degree black belt in TKD.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Godzilla
04-03-2001, 11:28 PM
shaolin.cjb.net:
There are several effective kicks in TKD. If you haven’t seen a back kick or an axe kick how would you ‘stop’ it? To just avoid the kick (although this may be the best defense) is not the answer since it can apply to all styles. What specifically would WC use to stop TKD kicks?

Godzilla

rogue
04-04-2001, 02:10 AM
Robin, has anybody in your school gone Mantis vs TKD? If so, I'd like to hear about it.

Robinf
04-04-2001, 03:27 PM
It's mostly been me using kung fu against some of my TKD brothers and sisters--highly, highly skilled black belts. We generally wind up even, as we generally do in TKD sparring.

There is another Mantis "black belt" who has sparred some of our TKD folks (the same one I spar); they also come out about even.

Skill is skill.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

doug maverick
04-04-2001, 08:27 PM
look this discussion should'nt even be taking place cause there's no way a hard art like tkd gonna beat a soft art like wing chun so just forget it

rogue
04-05-2001, 01:48 AM
Great well thought out argument Peace.

Godzilla
04-06-2001, 01:03 AM
>...the wc fighter will just strike the tkd guy with blinding speed and power knocking the tkd guy out for the count,...

>...there's no way a hard art like tkd gonna beat a soft art like wing chun so just forget it...

Is WC a hard style with strikes or a soft style?

Godzilla

rogue
04-06-2001, 01:09 AM
They're very soft strikes, lest the person bruise their hand. :D

fei_jai
04-06-2001, 03:32 AM
Please don't be fooled in thinking that Wing Chun has soft strikes... A skilled Wing Chun exponent can generate a hellavalot of power, and hit very, very hard.

But, Wing Chun is then also considered a "soft" art. This is because Wing Chun primarily promotes generating power within. That is, we develop power through relaxation, concentration, mental focus and projection.

I dont have much experience with TaeKwondo, or have any real substantial knowledge of it, so I'll stay out of the which one is better debate. Although, you could probably guess which one I'm more biased to.

Dave

rogue
04-06-2001, 06:17 AM
Don't worry fei jai, the jab was at Pace Maker not Wing Chun. WC is an excellent art.

"This is because Wing Chun primarily promotes generating power within. That is, we develop power through relaxation, concentration, mental focus and projection."

Then well done karate and TKD could be considered soft arts also. :D

doug maverick
04-07-2001, 01:23 AM
what a moron!
what do we mean we say "soft"
in martial arts internal right and wing chun
is about genarating enternal thats why theres
no hard shouts because it's about generating the chi to the "weapon" you are striking with it
i don't know why everytime i speak the truth you
people get all mad and angry.oh and i didn't just make this stuff up v.a. thomas told me this.

rogue
04-07-2001, 05:10 AM
Mo·rón (mô-rôn)
A city of eastern Argentina, an industrial suburb of Buenos Aires. Population, 596,769.

It's good to be called a moron by someone with such poor spelling abilities.

Anarcho
04-07-2001, 06:57 AM
I think one area has been neglected in this otherwise worthwhile thread. Would Bruce Lee using Tae Kwon Do kicks and Wing Chun chi sao while standing on a pedestal defeat a tag team of Ashida Kim using Shaolin Do techniques and Sin The using secret ninjutsu techniques? And if so, how would he do in NHB against an experienced grappler?

doug maverick
04-07-2001, 07:34 AM
like i said everytime i speak the truth people try to change it around lets just admit it tkd is whack and i know a dime a dozen cats that'll drop you if you even think about throughing a kick rogue your real stupid how old are you and how long have you been in martial arts? also have you ever been in any real street fights? i'm not hating but **** your ignorance is astounding yo go pick up a book and learn something i thought this forum was about sharing knowledge an some times it is but then you got those people like you and siwft kill who just murder the whole thing it's not my fault your didn't breast feed you don't take it out on me.

rogue
04-07-2001, 09:47 PM
Here's some advice right next to the m key on your keyboard is the key for a comma. Also right next to you z key is something called a shift key, it makes letters uppercase, that means big. Both of these may help others understand what you're trying to say, my trolling little friend.

Your last few posts also fly in the face of your previous posts.

doug maverick
04-08-2001, 07:41 PM
your a **** fool bit for some strange reason i like you, scary isn't it

rogue
04-09-2001, 04:07 AM
It is. Where in NYC you from?

Internal Boxer
04-10-2001, 11:06 PM
Are we talking sparring here? if so then basically who cares who will win! What is important if the fight is for real where your attacker is seriously trying to **** you up. In the build up to a street fight your would-be attacker will not tell you what style he does, that if he does any. If he does tell you his style then he is either very inexperienced or full of bull **** and just using intimidation tactics. I know a street fighter not versed in any style but he is one seriously hard ******* who has brutally ****ed up many oponents, boxers, wing chun guys, karate, doormen. I know a few TKD practioners, and they have expressed, the high kick element is purely for the sport of sparring. In reality the simplest and nastiest techniques work the best, ie throat strikes to CV22 or ST9 or anywhere else in that region, since the throat is the most vulnerable. with whatever tool - fingers, palm, fist, wrist, elbow. So it does seem somewhat futile to discuss what style is better than another style. It is the fighting ability (or Gung Fu)of the individual that counts never the style. ;)

Seeker of the Way
04-22-2001, 10:54 AM
I agree completely with Fei Jai. In the danish WC school, you learn to punch with surpassing power, and a person reaching 5th technician's degree have punches that I dare call power punches... It'd go straight through your ribs on a clean punch.

*Cheap southern degree* naw, that's what ah call pow'r.

Peace :cool:
SotW

"I know Kung Fu."

rogue
04-22-2001, 02:59 PM
:rolleyes:

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

atsai
04-28-2001, 02:10 PM
Is this a long thread... How come we don't have more civilized discussion like this in kung-fu forum? I didn't even know the existence of this forum until today.

Looks like Robin and rogue(the self-proclaimed undisputable first poster on the forum :D ) are the only defenders of tkd here. :)

I often heard this stop kick in tkd. What does it look like and how often do you use it? I know Wing Chun is quite known for its stop kicks.

Somewhere in the thread someone mentioned bad kickings from wing chun guys... There're only a few kicking techniques in Wing Chun, so I think it would be really unwise for anyone to omit even just one of them(what if a boxer omits 'only' one of the punching techniques?). If a wing chun guy who just rushes in and tries to do chi-sau w/ a tkdist, then he'll probably get kicked even if he fight another wing chun guy(or maybe he "expects" to get hit on his way in?). There's a story about Yip Man I read. He sometimes stand in front of the door of his school before training time. As the students come in, he told them that they have to get pass his kicks before they can enter and train...

The below article by a student of Robert Chu is an interesting one, and put you tkd guys in the "enemy's camp"--hey, the thread is wc vs tkd, isnt it? :)

Countering Kicks by Dzu Nguyen on wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/columns/nguyen/opinion02_kicks.shtml)

Here's Philip Holder dodging a kick that maybe of interest. I think Holder trained under Moy Yat and William Cheung. Base I what I know, this kind of front kick(or something like that) can give wing chun guys some trouble. And using footworks to have a more circular entry seem to be the prefered method.

http://www.wingchun.com/img/phkickd.gif

<img align="left" src="http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/images/yyang.gif"><FORM METHOD="LINK" ACTION="mailto:arttsai@mailandnews.com">
<input type="submit" VALUE="arttsai@mailandnews.com">
</FORM>

"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[This message was edited by Art T on 04-29-01 at 05:19 AM.]

rogue
04-29-2001, 05:03 AM
Didn't read anything in the article that wasn't also my experience. The guy sounds like he really worked out with a TKD guy.

The Holder move is good but the only hole I see is that the kicker he's using is weak. I'm by no means a great TKD kicker but one secret TKD people have is the much maligned chambering of the kick.

A good TKD person can change what kind of kick he's going to throw while it's chambered. I've been positive an opponent was throwing a roundhouse and ended up getting a front kick in the gut. No fun.

Also chambering can be protection against someone rushing up your centerline, like some less experienced WC people like to do, trying to jam your kick. That front kick can turn into a nasty knee thrust or a front shin kick to the groin. Also no fun.

This is a good thread since it's more about what each may do while still respecting the arts.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

Godzilla
04-29-2001, 09:53 PM
>>Against circular kicks, I moved into him rather than wait at the end to see what kick it was. Regardless of whether the kick is clockwise, counterclockwise, or spinning, the center is open for a split second. Move in and take out the support structure (be very careful of injury!) or disrupt his balance to prove your point.

This is what works best for and against me in TKD. If I can, I just shove or push my opponent during sparring. Sometimes, it will knock them down but usually just upset their balance. That’s when you can do some damage and score. I also like to hold my ground sometimes and throw in a front kick while they are preparing to throw a rear leg roundhouse. It’s those guys and girls who can throw front leg roundhouse kicks that really frustrate me. I agree with rogue about good TKD guys/girls able to change their kick from chamber. Sometimes you think you’re going to get hit in the stomach, but end up getting kicked in the head.

Thanks again,
Godzilla

Robinf
04-30-2001, 05:56 PM
One of our guys in TKD uses a simple, fast rising block against any hand technique, then, at the same time, throws a side kick to the rib cage right under your lifted arm. Gets me EVERY time!

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Godzilla
05-01-2001, 12:22 AM
That’s great Robin. Imagine if you could grab your opponent’s arm and throw that kick. Then, while holding his arm, pull him to the ground and apply an arm bar or wrist lock.

During Aikido class, my instructor asked me to ‘do what I usually do’ from TKD. A high level student charged straight at me. I side stepped and threw a solid roundhouse to his gut. I felt terrible! The instructor said it was okay as the student stood bent over holding his belly. Of course he was okay, but I believe I could have finished him with additional striking while he was vulnerable.

Normally, what we learn to do in Aikido in the same situation is the following. We step forward into the attack either to the inside or the outside. We grab a wrist, arm or back of the neck, twist (do a little dance, almost) and throw.

I am not accustomed to entering like this. My instinct is to back off or side step and strike. I think TKD is much ‘cleaner’ and ‘crisper’ a MA than Aikido. And the kicking exercises are poor. Imagine standing straight ahead with your legs shoulder width apart. Then throw a front kick. No power, nuthin. They disregard roundhouse, push kicks, axe kicks, back kicks, side kicks, etc. as nothing more than wasted energy. (I sure did waste some energy on that guys belly though, ha, ha.) I’m still learning and it’s fun. Lots of practice from choke holds and collar grabs.

Godzilla

rogue
05-01-2001, 02:12 AM
Before TKD and karate, my first love was JJJ, so all my counters involve a sweep, hip throw or an arm bar all pretty ugly. I'm always being called on it since it's usually a no-no during sparring.

I'd really like to see a WC and TKD match. I'd also like to see Mantis vs TKD or Karate.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

Robinf
05-03-2001, 08:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'd also like to see Mantis vs TKD or Karate.[/quote]

rogue, you just want to see me fight.

I tend to side step, too. It's one of our drills in TKD for sport sparring. A lot of TKD players will go linear foward and back. They hate sparring me. I'll also go in and "infultrate" when I see they're making a spin kick but they're slow with it. Slide right by their back and pop them from the other side. This one even works on the guy I just wrote about, but I have to time it perfect with him, or his foot is in my head.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

CerberusXXL
09-04-2001, 04:14 PM
TKD do not stand much of a chance against a WC fighter.
WC is just far more efficient and was meant to destroy northern styles.
However, there are exception to the rule. If a TKD practioner is very good by which I mean fast, accurate and has good reflexes and use lightning fast low kicks then he might stand a chance.

Wing Chun is a very very aggressive style, and once the fight starts a wing chun fighter will move forward with constant attack and he will destroy the opponent balance.

rogue
09-04-2001, 07:28 PM
Nice theory, but I've seen very few WC people can make it work.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

CerberusXXL
09-04-2001, 10:39 PM
The instructor is the key to creating a good fighter. They are many fakes out there that are out for your money and such.

Note there are three types of TKD

*The majority of TKD found out strip malls and such do not teach traditional TKD and they emphasize things that looks very cool. The fighter that will come out of there will be weak. Keep in mind that in most TKD school they will accept everyone, but not everyone is fit to be a great fighter.

*Another type of TKD is the tradional TKD which resemble more karate and that will teach quality martial arts. Some good fighters will come out of there and yes some of them can beat the some Wing chun practioner.

*The last type of TKD is the olympic TKD. The guys that train there are in top quality fitness and they are natural fighters. These guys are very dangerous.

On the WC side you have the good and the bad wing chun school.

*In a bad school they will emphasize the forms and they will train very little about real street fighting that will save your life. In fact, some of the sifu (instructor) are fake because they don't know that much but they have open there own school. Very few people know what real wing chun is all about so they will sign up and learn a bad wing chun. Some of these guys will beat some tkd and others will get destroy by Tkd or any other martials arts for that matter.

*The good wing chun school are hard to find because good instructor who know there art well is pretty rare. A good wing chun school will pump up some serious martial artist. A great martial artist can be made between 3-5 years in wing chun. In fact, in three years you can learn the entire system. I think the best way to tell if a wing chun school is to look at the students who have been there 2 to 3 years and look at their skills.


In the end, I don't have anything in particular against TKD or other martial arts, but wing chun is definitely one of the most efficient and useful art for the street.

rogue
09-05-2001, 02:28 AM
Actually I agree with you Valn, and welcome aboard. The main problem with even many serious WC people, as I see it from my limited experiences working out with WC guys, visiting schools and briefly taking it, is that they spend much of their time in theory ( Sil Lim Tao, Chi Sao, working against the mook, unrealistic drills) and very little time working live (sparring) to really put the theory into practice.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

wingchunwsl
09-09-2001, 07:00 AM
well i'd have to say wing chun would have more of a chance cause i'm biased. i think tkd has a good chance though cause they're so fast at kicking. they could do a lot of combos to throw the wing chun guy off. i only got to green stripe in tkd before wc though so i dunno enough of tkd to say much... i dunno enough about wing chun to say anything either. :D

umgong
11-02-2001, 04:56 AM
I still submit to the concept that it is more the fighter than the style which determines the winner in a fight.
having said that, there are some style techniques which might give the advantage to one person.

For example, one day my friend, a W.C. instructor, asked if I could help out in doing his demonstration with him as he didn't have too many people who could help at the last minute.
We showed up at a high school and he and I and two of his students were there as well as about 40 TKD students and their master. We started warming up while their people warmed up, the stage was small, especially behind the curtain...so some comments were made that we heard.
My friend's students were young so they took offense at the TKD people's criticisms. Their sifu told them to ignore the TKD students.
Unfortunately, being young and full of vinegar, they started comparing teacher against teacher on their abilities to perform different aspects of m.a....then of course, came out the "Oh, yeah?!"
Some of them got toe to toe and a few good hits were thrown on both sides, but they were even exchanges....my friend walked over to his students and at the same time the TKD Grandmaster came over.
Something was said and my friend tried to walk away,,,the Grandmaster reached out and ended up my friend trapped the outreaching hand and immediately locked the leading leg with his leading leg. My friend said quietly, "I suggest we separate our students otherwise they will see that all of your techniques are rendered useless by my trapping you."

We separated without any further discussion or fighting. We were all caught up by misunderstanding in this case.

This story is told only to say who knows, it could have ended differently...calmness in the face of the storm saved the day here.

nobody
11-04-2001, 02:43 AM
i know by asking, "does it matter?" wont have any affect on half of you, so ill just add my two cents. if they were both even in skill, then it would be a draw. however, if we had every tkd guy fight against every WC guy (assuming they were in equal numbers) the WC guys would win, because there is a greater volume of crapy tkd schools out there. im not saying that they all are, or that there are not crappy WC schools. im just saying that there are more of them that teach tkd. oh and i dont think that WC was developed to beat northern styles. i know of many techs in northern mantis, that can take advantage of WC's weaknesses.

rogue
11-04-2001, 03:51 AM
I don't know, many TKD schools that we would consider bad tend to spar and fight much more than many good WC schools.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

davy
11-04-2001, 09:30 AM
What about Bear versus Crocodile...

davy
11-04-2001, 09:31 AM
Or Shark versus Gorilla :p :D :D

jungle-mania
11-07-2001, 05:20 PM
I practise kungfu and TKD for 8 years, frankly speaking the style really doesn't matters. In TKD, you have to be very fast to beat a WC guy at his game and likewise the WC guy has to know when to step in and not get his fingers snapped by a kick. In short as the chinese say:" shui pi shui qiao" - whoever is the faster ones win. Of course this is only half true, skill counts for the other half. Again the Wc guy must also know what stylr of TKD his opponent has, WTF or ITF? Likewise for the TKD guy needs to know what style of WC he is fighting with, both of them must change their gameplan to suit their opponent.

Mr Nunchaku
12-15-2001, 05:40 PM
Doug Maverick, the only fool is you because you have no idea what tae kwon do is other than what has been seen in the Olympics. When someone talks about TKD as if it is a crap martial art and only uses kicks I am laughing and disgusted at the same time.

sall the same
06-30-2006, 10:49 AM
hi im new to this site, but i got interested because of this thread. I've been in tae kwon do since i was three and have been a third degree black belt for a while now. we train the olympic style sparring and i have noticed something that all of you have neglected to say. this is not to say many of you have not brought up very good points; however my question is if these two fighters were to sparr, the winner would be decided by the rules of their fight. now i know little about wing chun other than the philospophy, and then that is very little as well. i imagine if they fight close like many of you have said, they probably focus on punches. well tkd tournaments very rarely score punches, also they can not be above the chest protector. in this case i do not think the wing chun student would win. Unfortunatley knowing very little of the wing chun i could imagine that the student would prove me wrong and annihalate the tkd student. Honestly i beleive that both arts are very strong in their own ways. taekwondo students are taught hapkido as well as judo, so i would imagine that the wing chun student is well versed in other martial arts, so in my mind the decideing factor would be which fighter is more diverse and can adapt to fighting againt others of different styles. anyway that is my 2 cents

P.S. i also forgot to mention that many of you only talk about tkd's kicks. well not to sound mean about this, but tkd students are taught how to throw punches and elbows. i dont know if this is often in many dojos but i can throw decent punches like the next guy. true we do not focus on these techniques we are taught them.

sir-elrik
07-06-2006, 06:49 AM
WC is ideal against TKD! if the WC guy is clever could easilly won. nevertheless i hv to point out that has to be CLEVER cause exist a vid in net tha that shows a WC guy to get bitten serioysly by a karate guy(koyokusin or how in the hell is spelld) who only applied kicks http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4544307741895789897&q=wing+chun . The WC guy was so crap that even me i wld hv perfomed better. i think he frose cause he hdnt practise againt incoming full power kicks in the head.

Its all about the fighter and they way he trains not so much about the art.

choyleefat_604
07-06-2006, 03:06 PM
theres no wing chun in that clip....

Cobra Commander
07-06-2006, 04:57 PM
To be honest. I would see a person studying Wing Chun having more of a hard time with an experienced Western boxer. Or Muay Thai.

OF course it also comes down to the individual and, not just the art.

CFT
07-07-2006, 06:52 AM
WC is ideal against TKD! if the WC guy is clever could easilly won. nevertheless i hv to point out that has to be CLEVER cause exist a vid in net tha that shows a WC guy to get bitten serioysly by a karate guy(koyokusin or how in the hell is spelld) who only applied kicks http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4544307741895789897&q=wing+chun . The WC guy was so crap that even me i wld hv perfomed better. i think he frose cause he hdnt practise againt incoming full power kicks in the head.

Its all about the fighter and they way he trains not so much about the art.There are no Wing Chun fighters in that clip. The Kyokushin karateka go up against 2 drunken boxing idiots who are more concerned about drunken posturing than actual fighting and the last guy is a snake fist practitioner. The kanji titles at the start of each bout are quite clear.

sir-elrik
07-12-2006, 05:41 AM
SH@#T im sure i hv seen that clip with a wing chun guy after the last idiot!!
sorry

BlueTravesty
07-13-2006, 07:32 AM
WC is ideal against TKD! if the WC guy is clever could easilly won. nevertheless i hv to point out that has to be CLEVER cause exist a vid in net tha that shows a WC guy to get bitten serioysly by a karate guy(koyokusin or how in the hell is spelld) who only applied kicks http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4544307741895789897&q=wing+chun . The WC guy was so crap that even me i wld hv perfomed better. i think he frose cause he hdnt practise againt incoming full power kicks in the head.

Its all about the fighter and they way he trains not so much about the art.

Actually, what that proves is that if you take a couple of homeless men and say "hey, we'll give you $5 if you do some drunken-looking stuff against a Karate guy. Just let him kick you in the head a few times." They will say "Sure no problem!"

The wing chun guy toward the end actually looked serious though, just not very experienced

BigPandaBear
07-14-2006, 05:01 PM
What's interesting about that clip is the hand placement of the Kyokushin practioner's hands. Every Kyokushin artist I've seen keeps their hands up in a fist sorta like a boxer, but a bit more spread apart. This guy had his hands parrallel to his ribs. In fact, he looked more TKD than Kyokushin.

Lucky for the Drunken stylists, because some punches to the dome would have made that clip a lot more brutal.

Fighting Black Kings brutal....:eek: