Rules for continuous sparring in CMA Tournaments

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Was wondering this the other day, at many CMA tournaments I have looked up I see continous sparring divisions. Was curious what the rules are for that?

In other words, how is it different than San Shou?

Different contact level, different round lentgh?

I am guessing it is similiar to point sparring only no start stop.

Someone help me out here, what are the rules for this.

[KC Elbows]

It's basically point sparring, is not all that continuous, and, every once in a while, the song YMCA comes on and you have to make letters with your arms, then go home and brag to the people in your life about your brave fight against a nerf encrusted Blossom fan.

[MightyB]

Can't remember the exact rules, but I do remember the intention.

The idea is that the person who displays the greatest depth of knowledge and ability to apply their martial art is the winner... so - if you go in with a bunch of one-two combo punches and push kicks - you may hit the other guy more than he hits you, but you could still lose if he displays more of the flavour of his system.

[hskwarrior]

Ok,

This here is a Tat Mau Wong/ Nick Scrima light contact tournament here in SF. The black dude is my student and this is a beginners level match. We thought they were going to spar kinda hard...only to find out they wanted us to play patty cake. LITERALY.....they wanted a game of patty cake. My student got DQ'd TWICE for excessive force and THAT WAS light for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lWJc2jlObE

The rules were basically:

Light contact...they MEAN LIGHT AS A FEATHER...if your head rocks side to side DQ!

Front leg sweeps only.

no stikes to the back, or the back of the head.

no take downs and no face shots.

So we were reduced to only a few things we could do. my student just said fuk it and went for it.

[David Jamieson]

It's basically point sparring, is not all that continuous, and, every once in a while, the song YMCA comes on and you have to make letters with your arms, then go home and brag to the people in your life about your brave fight against a nerf encrusted Blossom fan.

This has 6, yes 6 levels of awesome in it. :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

:eek:
Ok,

This here is a Tat Mau Wong/ Nick Scrima light contact tournament here in SF. The black dude is my student and this is a beginners level match. We thought they were going to spar kinda hard...only to find out they wanted us to play patty cake. LITERALY.....they wanted a game of patty cake. My student got DQ'd TWICE for excessive force and THAT WAS light for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lWJc2jlObE

The rules were basically:

Light contact...they MEAN LIGHT AS A FEATHER...if your head rocks side to side DQ!

Front leg sweeps only.

no stikes to the back, or the back of the head.

no take downs and no face shots.

So we were reduced to only a few things we could do. my student just said fuk it and went for it.

:eek:What in the blue fu**ck was that? I cannot begin to fathom why your guy was disqualified, Frank, he hit him with a few cross and reverse punches and a front kick that did not land square? What did the ref say, I have to hear this explanation.

P.S. Nice ridgehands by your guy at the beginning. I take it that was another reason for the DQ. Sad, just plain sad.

[hskwarrior]

The ref basically reemed him for using too much force. watch in this next video how fast they DQ him.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3tYWB335XA

[mooyingmantis]

Anyone fighting in camo shorts deserves to have their butt handed to them. :D

[iunojupiter]

I know it's slighlty off topic, but why the hell did they let him compete in camo shorts? Every competition I've competed in or looked at required a full uniform.

Anyways, nice shots to the head in that fight. They were hard but controlled. Nothing wild, it looked good for a beginner.

My experience with continuous sparring is usually a set level of contact, light, medium, full (hardly ever this). Lower ranks can't strike the head.

It usually isn't a tally a points that determines the winner but the whichever fighter displayed the best use of technique and skill. Like it was said before, the "one hit wonders" can one shot you all they want, but if you continuosly go in with combos and land 1 out of 5 attempts, you will most likely win because you showed a great command of technique.

Round lengths are usually 1 to 2 minutes.
... i think that about sums it up with what has been said previously.

cheers!

[Violent Designs]

Isn't being a ***** for not wanting to take a punch, or CAN'T take a punch being a HYPOCRIT if you also claim to be a "martial artist" or a "fighter?"

[David Jamieson]

wow, I guess you just have to stay away from the disneyland fairy fantasy fudge packing tournaments then.

clearly, they are out of their realm of understanding when it comes to sparring, sanda etc.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Isn't being a ***** for not wanting to take a punch, or CAN'T take a punch being a HYPOCRIT if you also claim to be a "martial artist" or a "fighter?"

You have ball slapped the correct.:D

I guess this is why all sparring at CMA tournaments needs to go to San Shou format, because let's face it, anything else is just posturing BS. One of the main reasons I quite doing point sparring years ago, oh the horror of those things.:eek:

[TenTigers]

the problem is that the judges themselves need to be educated.
They were not all that familiar with sow choys-and thought the contact was excessive. Since they were now wary of the contact level, and concerned with safety, as soon as even light contact was made, they jumped right in and decided to end it right then and there.
I have done this-ONLY when I knew that the guy was making excessive contact, with complete disregard for the rules and his opponent.
If they are both banging and still with control and have no problem with it, we kinda let them go at it a bit. Mind you, this is still not full-contact.
The rule is, any face contact that snaps the head back is potentially dangerous.
(of course, some people have a flinch reaction, and over react to even the slightest contact, and others may play upon it) But-this is the way the game is played. Usually there is pretty hard contact to all other areas allowed.
I have had this problem with a guy at another Kung-Fu tournament-He was from Jow Ga style and yet he didn't recognize sow choy and cup choy. I told him,"These are your mainstays in your own system-you should know this and be able to recognize it!"
Too many people have only been exposed to point fighting and jab'cross, uppercut, hook in their own schools-they fight different than their forms.
Hence, in the words of Jow Ga Sifu Raymond Wong-"Keep the Kung-Fu in Kung-Fu!"

[hskwarrior]

yeah, although there are no sanda fights in california...we will train and leave state if we have to. but we will never do this kind of event again.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The ref basically reemed him for using too much force. watch in this next video how fast they DQ him.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3tYWB335XA

Nice bit of acting by the other guy.

I remember when point sparring was the rage and you would go to those tournaments and see hundreds of competitors. At least in my area now, they may be lucky to have 50-100 competitors total. That fills my heart with great joy that slap crappy fighting is starting to die. I know, it will always be around but it is just plain sad to see someone get DQed for something like that.

What's even more sad, when you see it in the black belt division.:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

in the 90's the tournaments were a little better than this one. I was judge at one of them when this BAK EAGLE CLAW group came through and attempted to beat everyone to a bloody pulp. The BAK EAGLE CLAW guys shirts were always torn and bloody. They were treating it like a FULL CONTACT match when there clearly were limits to the power used. i don't mind good fighting and will let stuff go...if a tooth gets knocked out thats one thing. blood is ok too as long as its not too bad. a bloody nose or something.

but when i asked the judges what they based their decision on they said "when the guys head rocks side to side you are doing TOO much". i was like WTF LETS GO.

[TenTigers]

Can't remember the exact rules, but I do remember the intention.

The idea is that the person who displays the greatest depth of knowledge and ability to apply their martial art is the winner... so - if you go in with a bunch of one-two combo punches and push kicks - you may hit the other guy more than he hits you, but you could still lose if he displays more of the flavour of his system.
I've never seen rules like that-In most cases, continuous fighting means two to three, two minute rounds (if you win the first two, then it doesn't go to three)
The judges only stop you if you go out of the ring, commit a foul, or strike the opponent and more than three strikes go unanswered-this gives the players a chance to play. At the end, the judges simply choose who dominated the fight.
As far as style points? Not at any KF tournament I've ever been to or officiated at.
Oh yeah, and anyone not haveing the decency to wear a proper uniform and show respect for his art, his teachers, and the tournament, deserves a whuppin.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

When i competed in point sparring in the 90's it went like this. First excessive contact, warning. Second excessive contact, point deduction. Third excessive contact, disqualification. It also depended on the tournament. One of the more hardcore Karate tournaments we used to enter those rules did not really apply to green belt and above. I know fighting in brown and black during the late 90's if you did not make good solid contact you weren't getting the point.

But most others were a slap crap fest. Like I said, don't miss those days and wish I'd spent more of that time in my youth doing full contact.

[MightyB]

I've never seen rules like that-In most cases, continuous fighting means two to three, two minute rounds (if you win the first two, then it doesn't go to three)
The judges only stop you if you go out of the ring, commit a foul, or strike the opponent and more than three strikes go unanswered-this gives the players a chance to play. At the end, the judges simply choose who dominated the fight.
As far as style points? Not at any KF tournament I've ever been to or officiated at.
Oh yeah, and anyone not haveing the decency to wear a proper uniform and show respect for his art, his teachers, and the tournament, deserves a whuppin.

NACMAF Baltimore Circa 94 - 95

[hskwarrior]

oh to the d!ckhead BIMBLY ....did you see your father in all that ***fest?

IF you're not the BIMBLY disregard this.

[brothernumber9]

NACMAF Baltimore Circa 94 - 95

Or even a little before that. It was at least a little fun then. Sifu Barry and the other refs used to let us keep going. It certainly wasn't san shou or serious full contact, but was a good first step into competitive fighting And then uniforms were normally no more than a t-shirt or tank top with school/style affiliation and regular kungfu or karate pants or even sweat pants. NACMAF used to be alot of of fun.

[xcakid]

Was wondering this the other day, at many CMA tournaments I have looked up I see continous sparring divisions. Was curious what the rules are for that?

In other words, how is it different than San Shou?

Different contact level, different round lentgh?

I am guessing it is similiar to point sparring only no start stop.

Someone help me out here, what are the rules for this.


The ones I have competed is different from san shou in 3 aspects.

1) No throws/take downs
2) You can only sweep the front leg, so you can't trap the kicking leg and sweep the back(planted) leg
3) Contact is suppose to be light, however, that depends on the ring judge. 2 years ago at TJL, they let the advanced go at it.

Much like in San Shou, they only stop if someone goes out of the ring, or falls. In rare occassion, a guy is just outright getting beat.

[MightyB]

I'm not talking about a rule - I'm talking about the intention of the event called continuous sparring. It was meant to showcase the individual styles in action. It was not meant to be San Shou. San Shou is San Shou...

In theory, one should be able to watch continuous sparring and say- hmmm that guy must be an Eagle Claw stylist, and that guy must be Choy Le Fut, and that guy - he's showing some nice Wing Chun.

It was not supposed to be two monkeys flailing at each other doing a poor imitation of kickboxing. That is what it's supposed to be - deal with it. That's why people get DQ'd.

[hskwarrior]

It was not supposed to be two monkeys flailing at each other doing a poor imitation of kickboxing. That is what it's supposed to be - deal with it. That's why people get DQ'd.

so are you saying you couldn't see the CLF being used by my student? Do you really look like a mantis when you fight? really?

because at the part the guy fell to the floor, the combo of Kwa Choy Sow Choy Sow Choy is very common in CLF and very noticeable as CLF.

He backfisted the other guys punch which caused him to turn. then he hit the guy with two sow choys aimed at his head. be it that they were very light strikes here...still....you can see my student is CLF.

[MightyB]

so are you saying you couldn't see the CLF being used by my student? Do you really look like a mantis when you fight? really?

because at the part the guy fell to the floor, the combo of Kwa Choy Sow Choy Sow Choy is very common in CLF and very noticeable as CLF.

He backfisted the other guys punch which caused him to turn. then he hit the guy with two sow choys aimed at his head. be it that they were very light strikes here...still....you can see my student is CLF.

No - I absolutely did not say anything about your student. I'm venting my own sour grapes and issues with continuous sparring. As a matter of fact - I haven't even attended a kung fu only tournament since 1996. I guess that answers where I stand on the issue. I'm only relating why so many people are DQ'd and why so many students feel they've won, yet they lose.

I had a similar issue as your student. I used Fan Che and the judge said it wasn't a technique. Fan Che is a type of "wind milling" strike. I've also lost where I know I hit the opponent many more times than he hit me. When I asked the judge WTF politely of course... he said that although I hit the person more... I didn't display enough technique. He then said something pretty much word for word that's in my previous post.

[hskwarrior]

No - I absolutely did not say anything about your student. I'm venting my own sour grapes and issues with continuous sparring. As a matter of fact - I haven't even attended a kung fu only tournament since 1996. I guess that answers where I stand on the issue. I'm only relating why so many people are DQ'd and why so many students feel they've won, yet they lose.

I had a similar issue as your student. I used Fan Che and the judge said it wasn't a technique. Fan Che is a type of "wind milling" strike. I've also lost where I know I hit the opponent many more times than he hit me. When I asked the judge WTF politely of course... he said that although I hit the person more... I didn't display enough technique. He then said something pretty much word for word that's in my previous post.
Reply With Quote

then i mistook your message. my apologies.

Yeah, we do alot of verticle back fists aimed at your nose. we'd get dq'd for those cause the tournaments only knew of the back fist to the side of the head.

[Violent Designs]

You should enter your guys in amateur Thai boxing fights or smokers... I'm sure you can find them.

For smokers just show up on the day, weigh in and fight on that same day. Fill out some forms, any style can show up and fight.

[hskwarrior]

You should enter your guys in amateur Thai boxing fights or smokers... I'm sure you can find them.

For smokers just show up on the day, weigh in and fight on that same day. Fill out some forms, any style can show up and fight.

Yeah they actually have a few out in SF now....but i didn't know if they'd allow other styles to participate.

[hskwarrior]

my former student took his CLF to Thailand took a few training courses out there and got into his first fight. he won.

[MightyB]

I think I brought this up a while ago... but what are the rules to Sports JuJitsu 'cuz these guys give it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus

I haven't seen it around here yet.

[Violent Designs]

Yeah they actually have a few out in SF now....but i didn't know if they'd allow other styles to participate.

one of our girls fought this chick from SHOTOKAN KARATE.

actually we were eating lunch across the street from the school, and her instructor was there (before the fight) and we had some conversion.

he was old as hell, oldschool type i think did a lot of martial arts.

was in the army etc etc, traveled.

i don't know how HARD they train though but i don't think it was enough, cuz this girl got DESTROYED.

[hskwarrior]

dang...the tourneys USED to be like that here :(

[David Jamieson]

imnsho it should be set up thusly:

two variants:

1) Full contact competition within a specifically cma framework, say, San Da.

2) Ritual dueling.


:D

[KC Elbows]

I explained the rules two pages ago, you guys are just bored.

[bawang]

kung tournaments need real raditional lei tai. with the pig head sacrifices to guan gong and splashign with spirit water and wearing magical amulets and all that.

[KC Elbows]

No, really, the problem with continuous sparring is that no one, in their right mind, would want to prolong point sparring.

What would I like to do today:

A) Slap turkey poo

B) Dwell in turkey poo continuously

C) Watch a post apocalypse movie from the eighties.

You can buy a lot of 80s post apocalypse movies with one tournament fee.

[hskwarrior]

You can buy a lot of 80s post apocalypse movies with one tournament fee.

My dad had an extra part in the movie apocolypse now :D

[David Jamieson]

My dad had an extra part in the movie apocolypse now :D

what did he do with it?

[hskwarrior]

what did he do with it?

mistah funny man!!!!!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think I brought this up a while ago... but what are the rules to Sports JuJitsu 'cuz these guys give it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus

I haven't seen it around here yet.

Funny you should bring this up, we used to have a tournament put on by USSJA here in West Virginia, but I don't know if they still do or not. One of the guys in the video you posted is Ernie Boggs who teaches here in WV and used to hold that tournament. Here is a link to his site:http://www.ernielightfootboggs.com/BCI.html

I can ask him for you and see where the circuit goes. He is one of my Facebook friends.

[TenTigers]

then i mistook your message. my apologies.

Yeah, we do alot of verticle back fists aimed at your nose. we'd get dq'd for those cause the tournaments only knew of the back fist to the side of the head.

you can see that this was a controlled strike, and yet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYcNJuRxFTg

oh well...

[TenTigers]

because at the part the guy fell to the floor, the combo of Kwa Choy Sow Choy Sow Choy is very common in CLF and very noticeable as CLF.


we have that same combo in our Wu Dip Jeong form in Hung-Ga.
So THERE!
(probably got it from CLF...):D

[Violent Designs]

weird when u said the Jow Ga "judge" didn't know the signature technique of his own style.

so what the hell would he use in real fighting?

pak sao chung chui?

[hskwarrior]

we have that same combo in our Wu Dip Jeong form in Hung-Ga.
So THERE!
(probably got it from CLF...)

perhaps lol :p

[ShaolinDan]

in the 90's the tournaments were a little better than this one. I was judge at one of them when this BAK EAGLE CLAW group came through and attempted to beat everyone to a bloody pulp. The BAK EAGLE CLAW guys shirts were always torn and bloody. They were treating it like a FULL CONTACT match when there clearly were limits to the power used. i don't mind good fighting and will let stuff go...if a tooth gets knocked out thats one thing. blood is ok too as long as its not too bad. a bloody nose or something.

but when i asked the judges what they based their decision on they said "when the guys head rocks side to side you are doing TOO much". i was like WTF LETS GO.

Lol. That was one of my Sigong's old groups. :eek:

[hskwarrior]

Lol. That was one of my Sigong's old groups.

who was your sigung? the white guy with greased back hair or the black fellow?

[ShaolinDan]

who was your sigung? the white guy with greased back hair or the black fellow?

He probably wasn't there...I don't know those guys, before my time...that group is gone now, I believe. My Sigong would have been the short Malaysian fellow if he was there.

[hskwarrior]

He probably wasn't there...I don't know those guys, before my time...that group is gone now, I believe. My Sigong would have been the short Malaysian fellow if he was there.

It's no more now? you know who they had the biggest problems with? the CLF people used to beat the living day lights out of them. but, they were there to fight....i give them that. they were very vengeful as well. if one of their classmates got beat and another had to fight the same guy...the new fighter would take it out on the next fighter.

very intersting ...thanks bro

[ShaolinDan]

yeah, I've heard some funny stories I've got no license to repeat. Anyway, my school isn't like that. Really nice people actually.

[pateticorecords]

Here is my idea... put all of the fighters in a locked up cage... the last one standing wins. :D

It's simple and it satisfies everybody's need for violence.


There will never be a happy medium because no one respects what the other does...


if you do point sparring YOU SUCK!
if you do continuous sparring YOU SUCK!
if you do MMA YOU SUCK!
if you do San Shao YOU SUCK!
if you do Full Contact YOU SUCK!
if you do K-1 YOU SUCK!


I guess it doesn’t take any skills to do any of the mentioned forms of competitive combat sports so, why bother?

[KC Elbows]

Point sparring as a child is a perfectly appropriate practice.

[pateticorecords]

Point sparring as a child is a perfectly appropriate practice.

I agree to a certain extent... however, everybody that practices martial arts can't do full contact sparring/fighting.

I have had students that had medical conditions, others disabilities, others were older, and other students enjoyed the competiveness of sparring but weren't doing it because they wanted to be "fighters"...

everybody does martial arts for different reasons not everybody is looking to become a "warrior" so to discredit their efforts just shows how ignorance is starting to prevail as the philosophy of the modern martial arts world.

[KC Elbows]

Point sparring annd continuous sparring are the only options at most competitions. Seems like practitioners are not being given much choice, or the schools are entirely made up of children, the disabled, and people who don't want contact.

My experience is the option of what level one can take it to isn't offered much. It's either got the option for contact, or it's non-contact point stuff.

[Eric Olson]

I think I brought this up a while ago... but what are the rules to Sports JuJitsu 'cuz these guys give it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus

I haven't seen it around here yet.

They rock the beats too! :cool:

[TenTigers]

I use point fighting as a stepping stone. You learn to mix it up, take some shots-especially the ones that slip in, and develop a feel for distance, timing, speed,and elusiveness.
I don't like the techniques that some people use, such as the flippy backfists, or diving lunge punches and the turning your back to run away, etc. That develops bad habits and a false sense of security.
"The techniques that win you the trophy in the tournament, will get you killed in the parking lot."
But I still enjoy watching a point fighter that is at the top of his game. Some of those guys are just so smooth and slick.
I appreciate any skill when it's done well.

But, continuous sparring is a good training tool.
I have my students fight the way they fight in continuous fighting when they fight at point tournaments.
Throw combinations and don't stop. Let the judges pull you apart.

Those who no longer find it a challenge and want to step it up, can move up to harder events.
Some people aren't cut out for full-contact, and that's fine. They can still enjoy competition at their level.
I knew plenty of "point fighters" that could handle themselves quite well in the street.
There are also quite a few point fighters that went on to full-contact.