Addiction

[Sihing73]

Hello,

You know when this board first came out I had high hopes for our art. I mean here we had an opportunity to discuss and interact with others, not only of our lineage but of others as well. It was, and still could be a tremendous, resource for those wishing to learn and build up the art.

Instead, this board has simply become another place to beat ones chest and build up ones ego while deriding others with whom we do not agree. Just about every thread turns into a my way is better, you don't know what you're doing or my Sifu is the one with the "real" knowledge. The topics get derailed and the same old crag is spewed with no imporvement in our training or in most cases our understanding of the art.

The behaviour on this forum strikes me as being quite similar to someone with an addiction, be it drugs or something else. An addict will do anything they can to get what they "need" and will ignore the realities of life and destroy both their own lives and the lives of those who love them in the process. In many cases an addiction can start as something which is needed. Many people become hooked on prescription painkillers but just can't stop when it is no longer a necessity for the body.

If you speak to an addict they always have excuses for why they do things even when those things do not make sense. Likewise we have those on this board who do the same. Also, some on this board are fixated on one way or one Sifu and cannot seem to grasp the idea of someone doing something differently yet also being just as good.

I wonder, just how many here need to post on a regular basis, who need to somehow try and validate their way and if they don't feel empty?

If this describes you, if you are unable to accept new ideas or see the merit in others then perhaps it is time for you to seek help. You may be an addict and the internet and senseless arguing on this forum could be your drug of choice.

Think about it, why are you here? If it is not to learn and discuss our art then perhaps you need to get your house in order before it's too late.

[m1k3]

Dave,

Interesting point of view. I come to the board because I trained WC in my past and still have a soft spot in my heart for it, but being a grappler is my preference.

I don't think there is any way to solve the d1ck measuring post issue in a general WC forum but maybe you could take a page from Bullshido. Yes, the Your Martial Art Sucks forum makes this place seem genteel and polite but the technique forums are moderated heavily.

Perhaps a couple of strongly moderated sub forums, one for technique and one for history could be the answer. Post that don't follow the rules could either be culled back to the main forum or deleted. Users that don't abide by the rules in the sub forums would receive temp-bans.

Just a thought. It gives you a place to post your chest beating as well as a place for serious discussion.

[LoneTiger108]

Hi Dave

An interesting point, and if you want the truth about addiction you may have to hold up that mirror bro coz you are the Moderator! I also presume that you were involved in the formation of this forum, in which case you must be addicted as much as the rest of us!

Personally, I like to break from the working day and 'try' to share and learn from people here. That is the reason I joined. I find it fits in with my pressured work environment and gives me a smile now and then too!

I think you may also consider the fact that some of us have to become chestbeaters to somehow make light hearted fun of some of the more serious insults being thrown out there! And I, and my lineage, has been on the end of a few!

I also think that my time here is coming to an end as I thought there may be more opportunities to actually meet people from other countries on here. Maybe you, as a Moderator, could actually organise a Forum 'Meet & Greet' and perhaps even promote an event like that in the magazine!

Anyways, that's my fix for now. Good luck with this thread and keep up the good, if not addicted, work!! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

As someone that was an insider in WC and now has chosen to be an outsider I can say this:
WC people are very myopic, more so than many TCMA.
They do NOT see the limitations of their system, they delude themselves in its effectiveness with no reason to do so, they are their own worse enemies, they say that WC is a principle based system then go on a 1000 page rant about a technique!
They value lineage above effectiveness, they value tradition above improvement, they value the status quo above betterment, they value politics above skill.
They live in a bubble with their heads in the sand but what is worse is that they are extremists and as such, even those that escape the myopic bubble bring their extremists attitude with them and make any point that could have a moot point.
There is nothing wrong with WC that a dose of reality won't cure, there is however MUCH wrong with WC practioners.
Sorry, but it had to be said.

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmC0UAnj0

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Mike, an interesting idea, I will put it to Gene but doubt that this would be a reality. Still appreciate the idea.

Spencer, also a good reply. I am a part of this so I share the blame as well. Although in my own defense I used to moderate much more heavily but the majority of those posting here wanted a more free hand. Although, given the nature of those who train in WC conflict is a given in most cases :o

sanjuro_ronin, some valid points and perhaps a good indication of why were are where we are. I agree that there is nothing wrong with WC but many issues with those who practice the art.

T, I liked that movie but did not see any WC in it ;)

It is interesting that many are so stepped in tradition as WC is a art which came from a combination of several arts. Also, most "traditional" artists did explore other arts and bring what was valuable, to them, into their approach.

WC is a conceptual art and as such is open to much tweaking per the needs of the individual. IMHO, no two people will practice the applications the same way.

[sihing]

It all comes down to ego, or the attachment & identification with something. Ego is not only about chest beating, I am better than you thinking, ego is false identity (I am my job, my title, my parental role, my physical strengths/weakness, et..), too much thinking, and the belief that the "I" in you is different (superior or inferior) to others in society. People identify with a whole bunch of things, politics, and religion being the ones that are most emotional, lol.

When one is identified with something, and that something is challenged or ridiculed, they take it personally, like someone has challenged their personal honour/integrity. That is what is happening here, too much identification with a lineage or way of thinking regarding VT usage, history and such. People that suffer from this don't see the other poster as a human being (which is why all the name calling eventually comes out or challenges), but rather as a potential threat to their thinking and beliefs (ego), ("how can this guy not think the way I do, can he be right and I am wrong, NO THAT CAN'T BE, I CAN'T BE WRONG..your ego doesn't like that type of internal dialogue).

Now if someone has never met me in person, nor trained with anyone in my lineage, how can they become a threat to me by saying I suck or my lineage sucks in a online discussion? There's no reality to that statement, since there isn't any real interaction going on, it's not based on real evidence. No one here will really know about the other's they interact with on this forum unless there is PERSONAL INTERACTION taking place at some time in the future.

For me, I love the line of VT I am involved with, the people I'm involved with are great and open to research and development and very helpful in helping me and my lil club here progress, but I am not identified with it. I train in it because I like it, it gives me pleasure. I don't stand up and say WSLVT is the best, as I don't believe in the word best, or most effective, bla bla bla terminology. It's a high quality system, that is all I can say. In the end the individual makes it work. There are great practitioners in every MA, that is given. Now saying that, I realize that not all Wing Chun is the same or equal. The problem lies in the fact that the art has been ba$tardized for the most part due to financial and/or status attainment, people have sold the art out to become rich and stand on a pedestal to become "masters" or "great grandmasters", leaders to a flock of followers. It's unfortunate to say the least.

I've realized that Wing Chun is not for the masses, and when you make it for the masses you are talking away the essence of the art. It takes allot of consistent work, training, effort and understanding to make the art work for you, which is why there aren't too many that can, as can be seen for e.g. when you search wing chun on youtube, very low quality representation for the most part, although there are some gem videos and tutorials by individuals on youtube trying to change that.


James

[jesper]

As someone that was an insider in WC and now has chosen to be an outsider I can say this:
WC people are very myopic, more so than many TCMA.
They do NOT see the limitations of their system, they delude themselves in its effectiveness with no reason to do so, they are their own worse enemies, they say that WC is a principle based system then go on a 1000 page rant about a technique!
They value lineage above effectiveness, they value tradition above improvement, they value the status quo above betterment, they value politics above skill.
They live in a bubble with their heads in the sand but what is worse is that they are extremists and as such, even those that escape the myopic bubble bring their extremists attitude with them and make any point that could have a moot point.
There is nothing wrong with WC that a dose of reality won't cure, there is however MUCH wrong with WC practioners.
Sorry, but it had to be said.

They are also prone to stereotyping others. oh wait

[Wayfaring]

http://www.mattbrandenburg.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dr-phil-youre-fat.jpg

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hello,

You know when this board first came out I had high hopes for our art. I mean here we had an opportunity to discuss and interact with others, not only of our lineage but of others as well. It was, and still could be a tremendous, resource for those wishing to learn and build up the art.

Instead, this board has simply become another place to beat ones chest and build up ones ego while deriding others with whom we do not agree. Just about every thread turns into a my way is better, you don't know what you're doing or my Sifu is the one with the "real" knowledge. The topics get derailed and the same old crag is spewed with no imporvement in our training or in most cases our understanding of the art.

The behaviour on this forum strikes me as being quite similar to someone with an addiction, be it drugs or something else. An addict will do anything they can to get what they "need" and will ignore the realities of life and destroy both their own lives and the lives of those who love them in the process. In many cases an addiction can start as something which is needed. Many people become hooked on prescription painkillers but just can't stop when it is no longer a necessity for the body.

If you speak to an addict they always have excuses for why they do things even when those things do not make sense. Likewise we have those on this board who do the same. Also, some on this board are fixated on one way or one Sifu and cannot seem to grasp the idea of someone doing something differently yet also being just as good.

I wonder, just how many here need to post on a regular basis, who need to somehow try and validate their way and if they don't feel empty?

If this describes you, if you are unable to accept new ideas or see the merit in others then perhaps it is time for you to seek help. You may be an addict and the internet and senseless arguing on this forum could be your drug of choice.

Think about it, why are you here? If it is not to learn and discuss our art then perhaps you need to get your house in order before it's too late.

What do you really expect? In years of this forum you will have the very same possibly a dozen individuals that post here. I seldom ever see a new name. The same old tired arguments too. You would think that one day someone would come up with a new and different discussion and that some of the members would actually have a meaningful discussion. Because it is not possible, you can easily see the charactor of the individuals that do post here. Myself excluded of course. I have no faults.

Jack

[YungChun]

I think some are going overboard blaming Chunners more so for this crap than anyone else.. Go to a basket weaving forum and at some point you'll see the same kind of BS.. In MA forums of course the ego is more in play..

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think Paul (sanjuro) has hit the nail on the head.

Expectations for what can be done with wing chun were built waaaay too high - and it's limitations were swept under the rug.

And the great majority of wing chun people, it would seem, prefer that the rug stays right where it is.

So their illusions can be held intact.

And then there are those who, sensing this inherent weakness within the character of so many wing chun people - use this as an opportunity to engage in their own chest-beating addictions...

as a club to beat wing chun - and wing chun people - over the head with.

What a mess !!!

[anerlich]

Everything that can possibly be said about WC has already been said on this forum several times. Therefore, without self promotion, denigration, abuse and argument, what can there be to discuss?


Go to a basket weaving forum and at some point you'll see the same kind of BS.. In MA forums of course the ego is more in play..

You're right, but none of the other MA forms that I frequent (not many) have anywhere the same percentage of threads that degenerate into the same small number of tired old arguments, e.g. WSL vs CSL, TCMA vs MMA.

I reckon there's been more flame wars about BJJ vs Catch on this forum than there have been on most grappling forums, and that's ridiculous.

[imperialtaichi]

A little light hearted "Life of Brian" moment... enjoy
.
.
.

FRANCIS: Okay, c-- co-- come on. You got all your demands worked out, then?

DEADLY DIRK: 'Course we have.

FRANCIS: What are they?

DEADLY DIRK: Well, I'm not telling you.

P.F.J.: Aghhh...

FRANCIS: Oh, come on. Pull the other one.

P.F.J.: Shh!

DEADLY DIRK: That's not the point! We thought of it before you!

WARRIS: Did not.

DEADLY DIRK: We did!

FRANCIS: You didn't.

C.F.G.: We bloody did!

BRIAN: Shhhh!

P.F.J.: Shhhhh! Shh.

DEADLY DIRK: You *******s! We've been planning this for months.

FRANCIS: Well, tough titty for you, Fish Face. Oh! Oh.

RANDOM: All right.

WARRIS: Clever. You sly...

C.F.G. and P.F.J. fight

BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!

FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.

BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!

EVERYONE: The Judean People's Front?!

BRIAN: No, no! The Romans!

EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[SanHeChuan]

Expectations for what can be done with wing chun were built waaaay to high - and it's limitations were swept under the rug.


It's a marketing strategy. Who wouldn’t want to learn the “BEST” style that makes all other styles look stupid? N00bs have no Idea that there is no such thing and they are being feed a line of B.S., but it sure does inflate that ego. These attitudes of Superiority come from their teachers. I’ve only seen this attitude in Wing Chun schools and BJJ schools.

Wing Chun doesn’t have a lot of forms, cool weapons, or animal imitations. The only thing Wing Chun has to market its self is efficacy, so it better be the most effective to attract students. Personally I find the sales pitch off putting. Others want to believe themselves the best, vicariously ;), picking the best style is like picking the best sports team.

And then once you become invested in it spent years learning it because it's the "Best" coming to terms with the fact that there is no such thing is hard to do.

[imperialtaichi]

There is nothing wrong in having a high expectation in Wing Chun. I still regard it as very effective.

Wing Chun, and ALL other martial arts, are like tools in your toolbox. Different tools are designed for different things, different tools suit different people. A hammer is good for hammering, but for putting a screw in I would prefer a screwdriver any day. One cannot say a screwdriver is better than a hammer or vice versa! I like the principles of Wing Chun, and I the methods suits me. But it does not mean other arts are better or worse. It does not mean OTHER WC schools are better or worse.

Nothing in this world is permenant. We should be forever asking questions, testing, improving and ask more questions. A 1955 Mercedes Benz is no match for a 2010 Toyota in terms of performance (figuratively); so why should WC not evolve as well?

Be the Master of your Art; not the slave.

John

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, also a good reply. I am a part of this so I share the blame as well. Although in my own defense I used to moderate much more heavily but the majority of those posting here wanted a more free hand. Although, given the nature of those who train in WC conflict is a given in most cases :o


Conflict between families originated before most of us were born, so to accept that as the norm today is, for me, totally ridiculous! Sorry! :o

I have heard many stories about the early days (1960/70's) when Wing Chun wasn't even known in the UK, and within my family/lineage there were disagreements between brothers that still exist to this day too! We ARE gradually trying to get things right, for the sake of Lee Shings memory, but it hasn't been easy and I feel we still have a long way to go.

Now, I'm from just one family and have been exposed to this sort of 'traditional' separatist view that for me is just OLD! Although I have plenty of respect for my fellow Wing Chun enthusiasts, elders and Uncles, I am of a new generation. A generation that was taught that Wing Chun has no secrets. A generation that was spoilt with early weaponry and wooden man practises. A generation that was exposed to chinese literature and curricullums from day one.

This itself took my Sifu almost 30 years to even START as westerners were never taught this when he started representing the Ip Family in 1978. This type of traing WAS the secret! And it worries me that there are still many other Wing Chun schools around the world that adopt the attitude of our past mentors and Sifus, like Wing Chun HAS TO BE done like this or that.

So, maybe this 'addiction' we all have to our Wing Chun and to writing on this forum is simply due to our inqusitive nature, our need to continually grow and learn, and our selfish quest to be free from our martial ancestors rigid ways.

[Wayfaring]

In all seriousness I am in some fashion a lifelong student of WCK. The concepts of centerline, structure, efficiency, power generation are universally useful in hand to hand fighting.

So I'm here to see and evaluate people's perspectives on WCK and to discuss.

The flame wars and the hilarity are just part of the overall venue for discussion you kind of have to take with a grain of salt. I don't take it personally but participate in those. I just view it as wading through static to get to any valuable content.