Fighting Taijiquan

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlEkvxhtZwc

thoughts?

[Dragonzbane76]

you can show someone all day "theory" "philosophy", etc. Until you put it into application and the person see's it being used in resistance environment is when the "light" bulb will come on. I've always been of the mind set, "I will show you techniques, then I will show you them used in resistance"

Hey at least they are using boxing gloves, I guess it's a start.

[Eric Olson]

Check out Chen Zhonghua's clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs&feature=related

(Not so sure about the kicks in that vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lSGiuyhB4&feature=related

EO

[Dragonzbane76]

Check out Chen Zhonghua's clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:


they would be more along the lines of demo's than anything else.

[bawang]

none of them keep their hands up or have a actual fighting stance, not even in a demo

[MysteriousPower]

Check out Chen Zhonghua's clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs&feature=related

(Not so sure about the kicks in that vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lSGiuyhB4&feature=related

EO


Lame...lame

[Knifefighter]

This is much more realistic and what really happens when you have actual resisting opponents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76sVEStkFo

[David Jamieson]

This is much more realistic and what really happens when you have actual resisting opponents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76sVEStkFo

not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.

more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.

shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.

[sanjuro_ronin]

William CC Chen's kids Max and Tiffany fight full contact, or used to anyways.

[bawang]

in kung fu demos lots of people keep their hands down and just stand there, have no fighting stance and have their student do a lunge punch. watch out for those people

[Knifefighter]

not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.

more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.

shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.

Clean? Trying to actually manipulate an opponent is rarely "clean". Wrestling, judo, sambo, resisting Tai Chi... none of it will look "clean" because that's the way it happens when people actually resist.

[MysteriousPower]

not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.

more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.

shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.

That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.

These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg

[Knifefighter]

That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.

These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg

This http://www.azski.com/images/up_arrow.gif

[Eric Olson]

Well, the first clip was a "demo" too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching...so that somehow made it something different?

In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you "resist" the worse it gets for you. (I'd put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)

Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance....

The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It's not about resisting...it's about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.

EO

[Knifefighter]

Well, the first clip was a "demo" too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching...so that somehow made it something different?
Nope, it was all just as unrealistic.

.
In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you "resist" the worse it gets for you. (I'd put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)

Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance....

The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It's not about resisting...it's about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.

Unless a "high level" Taji practioner is training and competing pretty much the way you saw in the clip I posted, they will never reach the skill level of those in actual competitive grappling sports.

[David Jamieson]

Clean? Trying to actually manipulate an opponent is rarely "clean". Wrestling, judo, sambo, resisting Tai Chi... none of it will look "clean" because that's the way it happens when people actually resist.

Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don't have an issue with it. What's weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn't. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.


That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.

These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg

If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.

sumo is not push hands. don't confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.

[MysteriousPower]

Well, the first clip was a "demo" too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching...so that somehow made it something different?

In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you "resist" the worse it gets for you. (I'd put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)

Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance....

The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It's not about resisting...it's about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.

EO


The more you resist the more worse it gets for you? That only happens when the student is being nice and does not want to make the teacher look bad. I guarantee you that, if that sumo guy resisted, the tai chi guy would be knocked over.

You see the same SKILLS coming out of shuai jiao, judo, etc because that is what skill looks like. You see CRAP from the push hands camps as well. No one in their right minds would refer to that as skill.

[David Jamieson]

ok, we get it that you guys hate tcma and it's practices. so what's your goal here at KFM?

please explain that angle for us kung fu idiots?

thanks.

[MysteriousPower]

Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don't have an issue with it. What's weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn't. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.



If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.

sumo is not push hands. don't confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.

Do you have correct structure? That sumo guy would destroy your structure and the structure of your teacher's teacher. And then he would celebrate by eating while you go back to doing the tai chi form slowly. I guess what I am trying to say is that eating is better training than forms.

[Knifefighter]

Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don't have an issue with it. What's weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn't. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.



If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.

sumo is not push hands. don't confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.

Actually, if you want to see what real, functional structure looks like, look to the elite, world-class grappling athletes. To get to that level, they have to have good structure.

[MysteriousPower]

Actually, if you want to see what real, functional structure looks like, look to the elite, world-class grappling athletes. To get to that level, they have to have good structure.

Or even olympic power lifters

[David Jamieson]

ok, so...uh, why bother with it then? Why don't you just stick to your lifting and wrestling.

I'm stumped as to why you drop these threads on some thin pretext and then use them to catapult yourselves into your anti-kung fu positions over and over again.

please explain?

[MysteriousPower]

ok, so...uh, why bother with it then? Why don't you just stick to your lifting and wrestling.

I'm stumped as to why you drop these threads on some thin pretext and then use them to catapult yourselves into your anti-kung fu positions over and over again.

please explain?

I do it to see if I can get people like you to admit bs when you see it. But you are in denial.

Quit complaining and just go with it.

[lkfmdc]

My good friend won Nick Scrima's push hand event and just won a silver in Taiwan at the world championships. I've been hosting his push hands team for over a year and we do a LOT of cross training

Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling.

The peculiararities of the push hand format have changed what they practice and their understanding. IE Nick Scrima opened up the rules to include leg attacks and suddenly my friend and his team we absorbing single and double leg attacks into their arsenal

I prefer a lot of neck ties, which are illegal in Taiji Push hands, I have told my friend that this greatly changes the game, but we've found things that do work

In Chen village mainland china, NONE of those restrictions exist

[David Jamieson]

My good friend won Nick Scrima's push hand event and just won a silver in Taiwan at the world championships. I've been hosting his push hands team for over a year and we do a LOT of cross training

Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling.

The peculiararities of the push hand format have changed what they practice and their understanding. IE Nick Scrima opened up the rules to include leg attacks and suddenly my friend and his team we absorbing single and double leg attacks into their arsenal

I prefer a lot of neck ties, which are illegal in Taiji Push hands, I have told my friend that this greatly changes the game, but we've found things that do work

In Chen village mainland china, NONE of those restrictions exist

See, now I understand this, what is being said here.

I agree, leg attacks and going for any joint (neck/shoulder/elbow/wrist/waist/knee/ankle) should be allowable and ultimately, throws would be great.

I think takedowns are already part of it as you can do leg sweeps etc etc.


@MP, do some push hands, then come back and tell us what you know.

[EarthDragon]

lkfmdc

Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling.

Can you elebortate on this? Im confused why you said taji application is shuai Jiao. I do Wu style with application as well as having shuai Jiao in our system of mantis and I cannot find the comnnetion you are making in reguards to this throwing art.

[lkfmdc]

See, now I understand this, what is being said here.

I agree, leg attacks and going for any joint (neck/shoulder/elbow/wrist/waist/knee/ankle) should be allowable and ultimately, throws would be great.

I think takedowns are already part of it as you can do leg sweeps etc etc.


@MP, do some push hands, then come back and tell us what you know.

In Taiwan you can not grab the neck or do "leg attacks" like single and double legs, but you can certainly throw. What wrestlers call the "****zer" is used a lot

The US format, I have no idea where it came from, it is the most restrictive and most unrealistic

Nick Scrima is trying to make it more "extreme" ie more open, I think it's a good thing

Chen Village is the wild west, it's free style wrestling but without the level change deep penetration. I think that goes back to the "combat" idea

[David Jamieson]

lkfmdc
.

Can you elebortate on this? Im confused why you said taji application is shuai Jiao. I do Wu style with application as well as having shuai Jiao in our system of mantis and I cannot find the comnnetion you are making in reguards to this throwing art.

Dave can answer on his own, but for me Tai Chi is a system of throws, take downs and holds more than it is a boxing system.

I practice Yang and find that it makes sense in context to grabs/holds and releases.

It doesn't make sense as a boxing style and in fact, has almost zero pugilistic stuff in it.

[Eric Olson]

Dave can answer on his own, but for me Tai Chi is a system of throws, take downs and holds more than it is a boxing system.

I practice Yang and find that it makes sense in context to grabs/holds and releases.

It doesn't make sense as a boxing style and in fact, has almost zero pugilistic stuff in it.

Yep, you got it. Although the Chen stuff has more striking, with a lot of shoulder and elbow strikes...but in general I think Taiji is weaker in the area of "boxing" as we think of it. I'll stick with my CLF for that...at least until I'm too old.

EO

[KC Elbows]

We allow grips, neck cranks, leg techs, but taixu isn't in the main of taiji.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to be a taiji nuthugger but you guys know that there are TWO forms in Taiji right?
Just saying that Taiji may not be as much of a grappling system as you may think.

[bawang]

most of the techniques in the form are punching

wing chun has sticky hands too, i guess wing chun must be a grappling system

its not uncommon for karate guys to discover secret throws in their kata after they learn 2 moth of judo.

most of the wrestling people do at push hands competitions have no name or even concept in taijiquan. because it comes from shuai jiao. taijiquan has like total of 5 throws

[KC Elbows]

Not to be a taiji nuthugger but you guys know that there are TWO forms in Taiji right?
Just saying that Taiji may not be as much of a grappling system as you may think.

The real taiji would retract its nuts as you tried to hug them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The real taiji would retract its nuts as you tried to hug them.

There's a mental picture !

[YouKnowWho]

the more you "resist" the worse it gets for you.
Agree 100% there. The problem is most Taiji guys don't train 100% resistence. When 2 Taiji guys are doing PH, None of them want to commit 100% of their force.

The worse opponent is the opponent that just running around you and don't want to commit on anything. The more that your opponent resists, the easier it will be for you to do your stuff. In the striking art, if your opponent comes in toward you with full force, you may just put your fist in front of his face, and he will run uinto your fist and knock himself out (head on collusion). In the throwing art, the harder that your opponent resists, the easier for you to change direction, borrow his force, and take him down the other direction (rear end collusion).

Old Chinese saying said, "You throw your opponent the direction that he wants to fall." It's always good to have "counter force" to borrow in both striking art and throwing art.

The reason that Anthony Hopkins could kill that bear in "The Edge" movie because that bear ran toward him (head on colussion). There is no way that he could kill that bear without being able to borrow the force from that bear. If that bear just running around him uncommitted, he would be dead meat in that movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

[KC Elbows]

He also is deadly with a ventriloquist dummy, letting the qi reach the tip of the dummy's head as he kills Burgess Meredith in Magic.

[tiaji1983]

I see a lot of things wrong with this thead. Taijiquan has wrestling, taijiquan has Qinna, Taijiquan has strikes and kicks...

Wudang has a lot of palm strikes and punches and kicks. It combines Taijiquan, Xinyi, Bagua, and Wudang Kung fu. It also has wrestling and Qinna. It has all 4 aspects.

Chen and yang has a lot of strikes and elbows and kicks. The movement Peng itself is a strike, a back hand or the wet towel technique. Yang I would say would have more wrestling while Chen is more striking, but they both have punches and kicks and elbows. Single whip alone, from any style has bumps, elbows, backhands, palmstrikes, and crane beaks for striking... But it has all 4 aspects.

Sun has a lot of breaks and grappling as well as punches and kicks, but mostly breaks and grappling, as it has bagua in the hands and Xinyi in the feet. But it does have all 4 aspects.

Taijiquan is NOT mostly grappling. It has all 4 of the above applications, if not it would not be considered a complete Martial Art... If you dont know the full application of the form, are you practicing Traditional Taijiquan or the wushu version of Taijiquan for sport?

[YouKnowWho]

Taijiquan has strikes and kicks...
When was the last time that we saw a Taiji master used his "advance hammer", "bend bow and shoot tiger", or "twin peaks to the ears" and knock his opponent down? All the clips that we have seen so far are push, push, and still push.

[Mr Serenity]

That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.

These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg

Before you posted this video, I was about to say all these "practical" taichi videos look like amateur sumo fights. Which of course a sumo would own. So I don't really think what they're doing is practical in a fight. A thug will come at you with fast flurry of punches.

And an experienced fighter, will use even stronger punches, kicks, elbows etc. So push hands is just like sumo, not really practical to knock someone out.

[tiaji1983]

When was the last time that we saw a Taiji master used his "advance hammer", "bend bow and shoot tiger", or "twin peaks to the ears" and knock his opponent down? All the clips that we have seen so far are push, push, and still push.

lol when was the last time you seen a Taiji master in actual combat? My point exactly. Those videos are demos, nothing more.

There was a Buddhist monk and his disciple walking through the woods having a conversation. All of a sudden along came a beggar, and asked for a drink of water. The disciple quickly gave him some water and some food, and the beggar ate and drank to his hearts content. Then he reached out and said "here." In the disciples hand he placed a large diamond. The master looked at the disciple in amazement. "That diamond is big enough to buy all of China!!!" He exclaimed. The disciple qucikly wrapped the diamond up in his clotes and took off running in the woods in fear his master would steal it. The disciple, running through the woods, had no idea where to go or what to do. If he went home, his greedy wife would surely take it and leave him. People would want to steal it, his freinds would try to kill him. Where could he possibly go?! He stayed in the forrest alone. A few months later, a happy wealthy man was entertaining his guests as they walked through the same forrest telling his freinds of the time he used to be a hermit in the very same forrest. While they were walking, a poor sickly looking beggar came out of the woods and asked the happy man for some water. After drinking his share, he reached out and placed a large diamond in the happy man's hands, and said "here, keep your problems!" The beggar was the desciple, the happy man was the original beggar.

The point is, the real applications is the diamond. The problem is people discovering the secrets and beating the "masters" and making the "secrets" wide spread knowledge. The solution is giving the secrets to the public to aleviate these misconceptions.

How can a martial art that comes from SHAOLIN not have strikes? How can a martial art that comes from WUDANG not have strikes? How can any of you believe Taijiquan is a martial art without strikes? And finally, why fajing if there is no stikes. Your missing the secrets though its right in front of your eyes.

[tiaji1983]

Before you posted this video, I was about to say all these "practical" taichi videos look like amateur sumo fights. Which of course a sumo would own. So I don't really think what they're doing is practical in a fight. A thug will come at you with fast flurry of punches.

And an experienced fighter, will use even stronger punches, kicks, elbows etc. So push hands is just like sumo, not really practical to knock someone out.

Push hands IS like sumo, not practical to knock someone out. I agree. BUT, the skills you learn in push hands is used to setup the opponent in an off balanced position or an undesirable position so they cannot defend themselves so you can knock them out a little more easily. Push hands is a useful tool to defend against grappling and qinna if done properly. You learn to feel and off balance the opponent, and avoid tricky situations after you already touch. But of course you have to learn also to make contact, and there are push hands exercises for that. Just cuz you havent seen all push hands has to offer, doesnt mean it doesnt have it to offer.

[tiaji1983]

Agree 100% there. The problem is most Taiji guys don't train 100% resistence. When 2 Taiji guys are doing PH, None of them want to commit 100% of their force.

The worse opponent is the opponent that just running around you and don't want to commit on anything. The more that your opponent resists, the easier it will be for you to do your stuff. In the striking art, if your opponent comes in toward you with full force, you may just put your fist in front of his face, and he will run uinto your fist and knock himself out (head on collusion). In the throwing art, the harder that your opponent resists, the easier for you to change direction, borrow his force, and take him down the other direction (rear end collusion).





True.

As far as the opponent not commiting to anything, then that means they will probably run from you if you advance. If you run, you cant run forever, you will eventually be caught. Hence moves like the chicken kicks in Chen style Taichi, advancing movements like Walk Obliquely, and Brush knee, and hammer fists, etc. So you can chase the opponent as they run. It is also important to combine external with internal, and external is to advance and overwhelm your opponent. You do not have to wait for the opponent to strike first. If you have to protect your life, not advancing can sometimes be suicide, and defense is offense, just as well as offense is defense.