Wing Chun & Kali

[Jubei1]

This question is for Wing Chun practitioners who cross train or have experience in Kali (namely Pekiti Tirsia). I have been recently training in WC and I am interested in Kali. Through my research I have learned that a lot of people promote or comment that Kali complements WC. Is this because of the connection between Bruce Lee & Dan Inosanto? Or are the concepts and principles similar?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, WC and Kali go very well together.
I have some experience in PT Kali and Inosanto Kali.
They blend very well.

[Jubei1]

Thank you Sanjuro ronin for your response.

Can you please elaborate on how the 2 styles compliment each other.
From my little understanding of Kali there are alot of circular movement. How does this style mesh with WC's straight line and economy of movement?

Please keep in mind that i do not intend to insult the style of Kali. This is just an honest question for the purpose of personal learning.

Also since I am training in WC, this question is coming from a WC mindset.

[couch]

I enjoy them together because of how the two hands work together for strikes and disarms - and I guess that's what I find similar to Wing Chun. I find my 'Wing Chun hands' adapt well to the (little) Escrima I know. I haven't found myself concerned with circular vs. linear or any of that - and it has been an non-issue in my learning.

A long-time Escrima player (who is also trained in Celtic stickfighting) told me he thought stickfighting was perhaps like Wing Chun: it's stream-lined, simple and effective...not a lot to learn. (The river is narrow, but it can be deep).

Hope this helps,
CTK

[dirtyrat]

I think the leg maneuvers of certain kali systems (such as Inosanto's kali), silat and kuntao complement wing chun really well. Somehow I feel they should already be a part of wing chun but many WC's practitioners seem to focus mainly on their hands whereas in the above mentioned systems, hand and leg techniques work together.

[Chung Hu]

I know you asked for wing chun practitioners that cross train but I have been studying the Lacaste/Inosanto blend of kali for a few years know. The Jeet Kune Do I mainly train in [also under Inosanto lineage] does teach wing chun blended with the other various techniques.

I would have to say that kali definatly will compliment your current training as it does use both hands but also because it helps recognize ranges well too. They teach various ranges from short [being elbow and empty hand], medium [knife or stick work where you can just hit the arm with the weapon] as well as long range [where you have to kick or you can only hit the others weapon].

It also teachs you to keep moving, you never want to stay still when being attacked with a knife. Last but not least it is good to know what knives/sticks can do so you better know how to defend against them empty handed [with wing chun].

[jesper]

I think the leg maneuvers of certain kali systems (such as Inosanto's kali), silat and kuntao complement wing chun really well. Somehow I feel they should already be a part of wing chun but many WC's practitioners seem to focus mainly on their hands whereas in the above mentioned systems, hand and leg techniques work together.

To true. it seems the art of moving or controlling your body is lost on many people.

Guess its not sexy to train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thank you Sanjuro ronin for your response.

Can you please elaborate on how the 2 styles compliment each other.
From my little understanding of Kali there are alot of circular movement. How does this style mesh with WC's straight line and economy of movement?

Please keep in mind that i do not intend to insult the style of Kali. This is just an honest question for the purpose of personal learning.

Also since I am training in WC, this question is coming from a WC mindset.

The "WC Mindset" ?
You mean simple, effective, direct? aggressive and relentless?
Well, some Kali systems are more defensive than others but typically all that depends on the individual.
The trapping you learn in WC CAN flow well into the "trapping" you learn in Kali.
The "circular" movements in Klai are the slashes (knife) and strikes with the stick which, obviously are better suite for circular moves than they are for "thrusts", but shouldn't screw up your WC since most of the kali knife work is a tad similar to the "butteryfly knives" in WC.
They are not the same mind you, but you will find common ground.
One thing I can suggest is that, since WC is your primary system, you adapt the kali to your empty hand striking and not try to do it the other way around.
Knife work and stick work do NOT translate into empty hand as well as many people think and hope they do.
Empty hand work translates better into armed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To clear up what I said here:

One thing I can suggest is that, since WC is your primary system, you adapt the kali to your empty hand striking and not try to do it the other way around.
Knife work and stick work do NOT translate into empty hand as well as many people think and hope they do.
Empty hand work translates better into armed.

Some kali systems, well, almost all of them I think, make the claim that be learning armed first ( stick and then knife typically) you can then translate those same moves into empty hand.
In THEORY that is correct but in practise it isn't because the power generation is different, while a simple "stab" with a knife with just "arm power" can quiet a bit of damage because it is with a knife, that is NOT the case with just a "punch", you need to put a LOT more power into a blunt impact to make the difference.
Stick work translates better but still not great, a stick has a different impact zone and motion than a fist/hand or arm.
It is far better, IMHO, to go from empty hand and add a weapon to the very same moves, than to do the opposite.

[jesper]

To stab someone effectively and not just some surface scrabes takes quite alot of power actually.
Most stabs never penetrate more then a few centimeters, which is one of the reasons you see people survive multiple stab wounds.
Well that and most of the time your stabbed in non leathal areas

[sanjuro_ronin]

To stab someone effectively and not just some surface scrabes takes quite alot of power actually.
Most stabs never penetrate more then a few centimeters, which is one of the reasons you see people survive multiple stab wounds.
Well that and most of the time your stabbed in non leathal areas

I think you may have missed my point.

[jesper]

I think you may have missed my point.

Not really, I get that you cant just translate armed combat to unarmed without some modifications.
Just dispelling a myth about knife stabbing :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really, I get that you cant just translate armed combat to unarmed without some modifications.
Just dispelling a myth about knife stabbing :)

I don't recall any myth about knife stabbing :confused:
I don't think that anyone thinks that it doesn't take effort to stab someone.

[Jubei1]

First off, I would like to thank everyone who responded to my post. Your information is very much appreciated.

By WC mindset I do mean simple, efficient, and straight. Trying to grasp WC concept and principles I tend to apply it or compare it to other Martial Arts (please correct me if this is a wrong way to look at other MA’s).

The reason why I started this post is because when I mentioned that I would like to learn Kali with my WC training friends they had the typical “WC has weapons too. You don’t need Kali.” For me this wasn’t a thorough enough answer and hence my post.

Sanjuro Ronin,
You mentioned to adapt kali to my empty hands and not the other way around. Why is that? Can you not use WC concept and principles to Kali empty hands?
Also Sanjuro Ronin, I don’t mean to sound facetious, but have you learned the “butterfly knives”? The reason I ask is because I want to know what the differences are; similarities as well as differences.

Also since you guys have experience in both arts, from what mind set do you approach a conflict? What I’m trying to ask is instinctively are you a WC guy or do you now see things with a Kali eye? Or a mixture of both?

Thanks again guys. I’m learning from your wisdom.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro Ronin,
You mentioned to adapt kali to my empty hands and not the other way around. Why is that? Can you not use WC concept and principles to Kali empty hands?
Also Sanjuro Ronin, I don’t mean to sound facetious, but have you learned the “butterfly knives”? The reason I ask is because I want to know what the differences are; similarities as well as differences.

Also since you guys have experience in both arts, from what mind set do you approach a conflict? What I’m trying to ask is instinctively are you a WC guy or do you now see things with a Kali eye? Or a mixture of both?

I trained under Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang, you are in T.O, so you know who they are.
You are asking me about a personal opinion that is based on ME and as such, it doesn't mean it will be relevant to YOU, know what I mean?
Yes, I learned the set and some of the two man drills, but it was NOT my cup of tea, just as WC was NOT my cup of tea, I am better suited for other systems.
Again, its a personal thing.
I approach things with a fighter's mindset, not WC mindest or Kali mindest, but a fighters mindset.

This here may be a problem for you:

The reason why I started this post is because when I mentioned that I would like to learn Kali with my WC training friends they had the typical “WC has weapons too. You don’t need Kali.” For me this wasn’t a thorough enough answer and hence my post.
It doesn't matter what WC has, it doesn't have Kali, just like it doesn't have judo or MT or whatever.
All systems have something to offer, if nothing else you learn how they work and how to beat them, there is a lesson there.

[free2flow]

I approach things with a fighter's mindset, not WC mindest or Kali mindest, but a fighters mindset.


Nice one Sanjuro :).

[Knifefighter]

This question is for Wing Chun practitioners who cross train or have experience in Kali (namely Pekiti Tirsia). I have been recently training in WC and I am interested in Kali. Through my research I have learned that a lot of people promote or comment that Kali complements WC. Is this because of the connection between Bruce Lee & Dan Inosanto? Or are the concepts and principles similar?

They both are filled with a myriad of pretend, theoretical, non-fighting techniques.

[t_niehoff]

They both are filled with a myriad of pretend, theoretical, non-fighting techniques.

And the people who love that.

[Jubei1]

Yes, I understand that I am asking you your opinion on the differences between both styles. Although the answer will be based on your experience your response might enlighten me on the subject. I’m hoping that you can help me to see “something” that I haven’t looked into before. I want to learn from your experience.
Having said that you still haven’t answered my question as to what YOU feel are the differences and the similarities between both styles? If you do not want answer for whatever reason, I’ll respect that.

Also when you say a fighters mind set, what does that entail? Does that mean you have no set response

I agree whole heartedly about all systems have something to offer. That is why I am trying to understand the kali system.

Thanks Sanjuro Ronin

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I understand that I am asking you your opinion on the differences between both styles. Although the answer will be based on your experience your response might enlighten me on the subject. I’m hoping that you can help me to see “something” that I haven’t looked into before. I want to learn from your experience.
Having said that you still haven’t answered my question as to what YOU feel are the differences and the similarities between both styles? If you do not want answer for whatever reason, I’ll respect that.

Also when you say a fighters mind set, what does that entail? Does that mean you have no set response

I agree whole heartedly about all systems have something to offer. That is why I am trying to understand the kali system.

Thanks Sanjuro Ronin

You can't learn anything from my experience, unless you experience it.
At best you can follow suggestions BASED on my experience and that of others with far more than mine.
Both WC and Kali have good and bad stuff, the best way to find out what works for you is to test it and test it from the start.
Kali tends to be more fluid and with more footwork than WC.
WC tends to be "inside" and Kali tries to work the outside more.
Both like to trap and hit but that has as many pros as cons.

[Jubei1]

I don’t agree with the statement that I cannot learn from your experience.
If you told me that drugs are bad and you gave me the reasons of why you believe that through your experience. I don’t think I should start experimenting with drugs in order for me to learn this lesson. Experience is a good teacher but not the only way to learn.

I also understand that fact that the best way to truly understand something is to try it (test it) yourself. My problem is there isn’t enough time to do so. My plate is full with WC training and “life” in general. So before I commit any more time to another MA I want to make sure that it is the right “fit” for me. This is the reason I am gathering information on Kali and asking your assistance as well as anyone else on this forum.

Thanks anyway for your time and information Sanjuro Ronin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don’t agree with the statement that I cannot learn from your experience.
If you told me that drugs are bad and you gave me the reasons of why you believe that through your experience. I don’t think I should start experimenting with drugs in order for me to learn this lesson. Experience is a good teacher but not the only way to learn.

I also understand that fact that the best way to truly understand something is to try it (test it) yourself. My problem is there isn’t enough time to do so. My plate is full with WC training and “life” in general. So before I commit any more time to another MA I want to make sure that it is the right “fit” for me. This is the reason I am gathering information on Kali and asking your assistance as well as anyone else on this forum.

Thanks anyway for your time and information Sanjuro Ronin.

What I meant was the my experience may not be yours so just give it the weight it deserves and no more.
Common sense and whatnot :)
There is a place that does kali AND JKD and they may also have WC and it is in Toronto.
That might be a good place to look.

[Jubei1]

If you can give me the name of the place it would be very much appreciated Sanjuro.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.trinityjunfan.com/

Kombat arts is good too, but they are in Mississauga.

[Jubei1]

Yes I found those 2 clubs during my research. I'm planning to visit both.

Thank you sir.

[bennyvt]

Question is why do you want to do it. If you think you will have a knife or stick and then have someone attack you with a weapon then kali would be the obvious choice as they teach that quicker. If you think that it will some how make your VT better then you may as well just spend the time doing VT

[shaolin_allan]

Personally when I was doing wing chun, I was cross training in Latosa Escrima. I can understand both sides to the story, it can confuse some people but you can also benefit from it if you're able to train both. I think if you do choose to cross train, you obviously need to do wing chun for a good while first to build a solid foundation. Also what people don't realize is fma is not just stick and bladed fighting, it has plenty of empty hand stuff once you get to it.

[LSWCTN1]

Wing Chun and Kali

slightly off topic, but i heard that Ernesto Presas passed away last night

great loss to the Kali community

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes I found those 2 clubs during my research. I'm planning to visit both.

Thank you sir.

Don't call me Sir, I work for a living !
:D

[trubblman]

WC and Kali (sometimes called Arnis or Escrima) work well together. The skills are complementary. Both styles are ambidextrous and depend on the cooperation of both hands. If you look at a lot of FMA hand techniques they look very similar to WC techniques.

[Jubei1]

Interesting question Bennyvt. I guess I just like the style of Kali and the fact that it is a weapons based MA. I am new to WC so the concepts and application of the Bat Jamm Do is beyond me for the moment. Perhaps when I do get to that stage in my WC maybe I’ll come to the conclusion that I do not need to supplement WC weapons concept and principles with Kali.

I have recently tried a kali class from a local club and enjoyed it very much.
Like most of the ppl who have replied to this post I found that the unity of hands in Kali are very similar to WC. However, I found the foot work, placement of elbow and the circular movements to be very different.

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

[trubblman]

My teacher knows both WC and Kali so I cannot say that I have a problem per se with mixing. If you think about it you probably can come up with an answer. The short answer is to practice as hard as possible and it will come to you.


Interesting question Bennyvt. I guess I just like the style of Kali and the fact that it is a weapons based MA. I am new to WC so the concepts and application of the Bat Jamm Do is beyond me for the moment. Perhaps when I do get to that stage in my WC maybe I’ll come to the conclusion that I do not need to supplement WC weapons concept and principles with Kali.

I have recently tried a kali class from a local club and enjoyed it very much.
Like most of the ppl who have replied to this post I found that the unity of hands in Kali are very similar to WC. However, I found the foot work, placement of elbow and the circular movements to be very different.

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

[KPM]

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

I've done a lot of Filipino Martial Art training as well as WCK. But I don't "mix" them. They have different biomechanical bases. You are either doing one biomechanic or the other. The biomechanic involved in most FMAs that I have trained is closer to western boxing than it is to WCK. What marks one method from the other is how you generate power. You can graft some FMA techniques onto a WCK base, or some WCK techniques onto a FMA base, but you aren't truly "mixing" them. What counts is the underlying biomechanic. IMHO.....grafting WCK techniques onto an FMA base can improve the FMA somewhat by making it more direct and efficient. But since WCK is already as direct and efficient as we can make it, then grafting FMA techniques onto it doesn't really gain you much. Of course, that's just my opinion. ;)

[trubblman]

Check out Dan Inosanto video about the idea of "beat". I saw one on 56.com. My sifu does use this idea of "beat" in WC.

[k gledhill]

I would rather use knife methods with 'sticks' than change the 'whole' method for kali, etc....given the reality of carrying either these days makes it a hypothetically redundant. Although I have heard that guys in some West indian Isl. still fight with machetttes to try and steal each others shoes...beware, and right :rolleyes: would you carry machettes too, if you knew this ? or buy a gun and fearlessly walk with new shoes :D

Some of the guys training with me are federal agents and carry firearms, so talking to them about a 300 year old pole and double machette (BJD) makes me grin.

I remember walking into a NYC gym with Philipp Bayer, that we used for a seminar. Other guys trained as we walked in and there before us two guys doing Kali :D, he said " if you know VT knives, you will never do these moves [lifting/pulling back before striking] ...but again its all if and maybes in todays world of bullets.

Knowledge is power, knowing a lot of stuff never hurts. I try to teach people to keep open minds to all things so you understand your own platform better. The saying " before you go shooting for pheasant, you need to know how it flies" . So even if you have the best aim, great posture, experience with clay targets blah blah, one 'real' bird youve never seen fly shoots up 10 ft, then goes horizontal at 100 mph can be a shock :D ...for the first time.
If you go shooting Turkey, etc....have happy thanksgiving, and be thankfull you dont worry about how sharp your blades are while walking down a street with new shoes .

[Jubei1]

Thanks for the response everyone.

KPM – your response is clearing things up a little bit for me. So you really cant mix both arts in your opinion? You either do one or the other? Hmmm food for thought.
Also if you find WC techniques to be very direct and efficient already then what Kali techniques are you “grafting” onto your WC?
KPM, the power generation that you speak of from kali; is it from torque (shoulder sway and weight shift)?

What I’m starting to notice are a lot of ppl pointing out the differences in both arts. Perhaps if I ask what are the similarities I can better understand how these 2 arts are coupled together.

K_gledhill,
“before you go shooting for pheasant, you need to know how it flies”

Ive never heard that saying before. I like it.

My understanding is I shouldn’t worry about how the pheasant flys. If it goes off the “line” Imma shoot!! :D

Hope all you Yanks had a good Thanksgiving.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't really need to combine a empty hand system with a armed one, not in the sense that one has to feed/play off the other.
Studies have shown ( and I don't have them with me right now), that we are very tactile creatures and that, based on touch we can adjust accordingly to what needs to be done ( Heavy touch to lift heavy, light touch to left a baby) but also HOW we do things * Touch a knife and we cut, touch a fork and we poak, touch a saw and we saw).
So, regardless of out preferred method of empty hand fighting, when we touch a blade or a stick, our mind and body ( when properly trained) KNOWS what they are and will "used them accordingly" in the way it has "memorized" the use.

[KPM]

KPM – your response is clearing things up a little bit for me. So you really cant mix both arts in your opinion? You either do one or the other? Hmmm food for thought.

---Correct. They aren't really "mixed", as in mixing Tae Kwon Do with Muay Thai. That kind of "mix" works because they share a similar body mechanic. Wing Chun and FMA do not.

Also if you find WC techniques to be very direct and efficient already then what Kali techniques are you “grafting” onto your WC?

---I don't!

KPM, the power generation that you speak of from kali; is it from torque (shoulder sway and weight shift)?

---I really wouldn't describe it that way, but I think you've got the basic idea.

What I’m starting to notice are a lot of ppl pointing out the differences in both arts. Perhaps if I ask what are the similarities I can better understand how these 2 arts are coupled together.

---Again, IMHO they aren't coupled together.