What's wrong with sport fighting?

[Yum Cha]

<respect>

OK, we have a general agreement that training like you fight, or as close as possible, is better than not. This seems to be the crux of the MMA argument, as articulated most succinctly by Knife fighter, who will elaborate I'm sure if he feels necessary.

We have also argued that high intensity combat training is demanding, and is a significant, but limited part, to a lifetime in Martial arts. You can't claim to be a top level MA without the blood to show for it. Yours or theirs is practically irrelevant.

So, this isn't about disrespect or dissent on sport fighting, its mainly a question for TCMA people, to examine how to get results with alternative training as well, to complete our picture and to lose the essential skills of your style.

</respect>


1. To my mind, sport fighting is a lot like Chi Sau, or Push hands. It limits your expression of your complete skills in favour of a very engaging sub set that becomes a game. To focus on any one element of your training for too long takes away from other skills, and becomes the skill itself. This is it for lots of guys, and fair enough, no problems with that. I prefer that kind of person to the split personality that claims TCMA but fights without TCMA.

2. Likewise, it takes you to a common denominator. Once you learn sport fighting, you practice it towards the skills of other sport fighters, and this can diminish some of your unconventional techniques, that have to be trained nevertheless, even though you can't use them in that format.

3. Several people have commented on "dirty fighting", and there is an unmistakable social issue with 'fighting dirty' in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.

4. I don't think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I think you have to sport fight as part of your MA career, preferably earlier than later, because once you have those foundation skills, you can sharpen them with TCMA, given you have access to some substance. Big if, I know.

That's my 'one man's opinion'. And basically, you have to consider that TCMA is about more than just fighting to see my point of view.

[hskwarrior]

Nothing is wrong with sport fighting at all. IMHO it has its place its time to shine is NOW. TCMA has been time tested and has survived centuries amidst all types of fighters from Kung Fu to Foreign boxers choosing to pick on the smaller men of asia to prove their point. In the end, some gung fu people came out on top while others fell to the wayside.

IMHO...it all started with the original UFC where the idea that Kung Fu can beat BJJ. Take that kung fu vs BJJ video Knifefighter is always posting. It took me some time to realize where the problem was because on a general level TCMA has proven to be effective in the past be it on the street or the ring. however, it was minus the BJJ and MMA at the time. So, where TCMA went wrong trying to fight BJJ people is that BJJ or any type of JuJitsu had nothing to do with TCMA. It's like apples and oranges. and of course Kung Fu came out on the losing end.

For most of TCMA BJJ was a losing battle. PERIOD. the fight on the ground while TCMA's focus was on STAND UP. I feel if BJJ would have fought TCMA on TCMA's level it would have been an interesting turn out.

The evolution of the UFC was MMA (IMHO) and the professional fighter title. regardless to what level, MMA woke TCMA up in a major way. at least for some of us it has. It's made us pay attention to a weakness....effective ground game. I think if ANY style of TCMA were to place the same emphasis on training as MMA does it wouldn't have the bad rap that it does.

Sports fighting is good for the FIGHTER in you. But in some cases it limits you to using certain techniques (some may say YEAH THE MOST EFFECTIVE). I'm not a fan of "FANCY" techniques at all. And the CLF lineage i belong to has always focused on fighting aggressive people. we have always modified our stuff if we thought it had no effectiveness. We also shaped it to individuals since TCMA is an individual endeavor.

Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball....baseball....basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being "PROFESSIONAL" is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day. TCMA of old i'm sure was like that. I mean what else could you do out in the mountains with no tv, dance clubs, ball games or MMA matches to watch?

The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

[hskwarrior]

What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat? So many people say TCMA looks like KICKBOXING. However, TCMA people have always stood by the claim of "if you put gloves on me you take away from my style". Yes, mma gloves today have the open fingers but still limit what we do with our hands. So to compensate TCMA during certain EVENTS used the most basic of techniques which tend to be very similar to others systems. theres only so many ways to punch kick and block.

But, honestly, is TCMA people supposed to fight like what you see in the movies? classical gung fu? has anyone ever seen a real fight looking like classical gung fu? Isn't FIGHTING supposed to be as natural as possible? with gloves on can you see a phoenix eye fist? A tiger claw? a panther fist? the only things you see on a gloved hand is A hand with a round glove on it.

i'm tired of MMA type of people or armchair warriors who think they have the answer cause they spend more time in their chairs watching you move pause play pause play pause play...move for move then analyze what they would have done as an answer.


4. I don't think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I agree with the above. the true test whether your martial arts works or not is if you effectively defend yourself from danger. On the street you have to worry about someone stabbing you, hitting you with a bat or what not, or just physically trying to attack you with his hands or feet. People who've fought in the streets prior to learning martial arts are more prone to ground fighting than a TCMA guy or girl would be. i've gone to the ground in many of my fights in the past. and i've effectively used the sprawl without ever learning wrestling, you just learn out of experience. in fact one of the things i've done a prefer is the guillatine, i never knew it was called that until MMA.

Sports fighing has its place, its really just for the money and entertainment purposes. its effective yes...but to be a fighter does it necessarily mean the onyl good fighters in martial arts are sports fighters? NO

[YouKnowWho]

What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat?
CMA = "sport fight" + "combat fight".

We all know what CMA "sport fight" suppose to look like. But we don't know what CMA "combat fight" suppose to look like.

In Longfist system, there are moves that you grab

- a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent's face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up.
- on your opponent's shirt, raise your leg, pull out a dagger from your boot, and stab that dagger into your opponent's heart (some people use this move as a hammer fist on the head).

That's pretty much what "combat fight" suppose to look like. Same moves as used in sport but with different application.

Weapon like this is used to kill and not used to dance with.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/20/schook.jpg

[hskwarrior]

In Longfist system, there is a move that you garb a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent's face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up. That's pretty much what "combat fight" suppose to look like.

not the technique, but the mindset is the same for CLF. CLF's flow allows us to have an effective answer in any situation (aside from ground fighting).

[YouKnowWho]

The SC system also has different mindset between "sport" and "combat". In "sport", your goal is to take your opponent down. In "combat", your goal is to crack your oppopent's skull.

[hskwarrior]

The SC system also has different mindset between "sport" and "combat". In "sport", your goal is to take your opponent down. In "combat", your goal is to crack your oppopent's skull.
Reply With Quote

right!!!!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

MMA being sport fighting is just that. A sport. In any sport, in order for it to be sanctioned, it has to have strengent rules. Only certain techniques are allowed. No matter what background of fighting you might have, your trained skills are not allowed, with the exception of those that are allowed by rule in the sport. This pretty much makes everyone on a level playing field. No amount of training in any form of martial art is going to make a difference simply because it can not be used. And because it is a sport and heavily governed by rules, and of course a referee to save your a$$, it is not even close to real fighting. Real fighting has no rules, and anyone that claims dirty fighting is a fool. Your only aim is to kill or seriously injure an oponent in a real fight. There is no submitting an opponent.

[Eric Olson]

The really funny thing to me is that the MMA crowd likes to diss on CMAs and act like wrestling never existed in China, likes it's a new thing and CMAs didn't develop with wrestling in the mix.

If you look at Hung Gar, for example, the stance work looks to me like a direct strategic response to dealing with grapplers. Drop your center of gravity so low that you can't be thrown.

Anyways, it's never black and white....and I agree with the MMA crowd that if you are highly skilled you should be able to do SOMETHING with headgear and gloves on. Most TMAs have some punches and kicks in there and you can pull those out and put them to use in a sporting venue.

That being said, some techniques you have to look to the traditional training methods to develop. For example, if you look at the development of push hands, it wasn't about training "energy" or some esoteric namsy-pamsy but a way to train locks without hurting or getting hurt.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

Drop your center of gravity so low that you can't be thrown.
This assumption may not work all the time. If your opponent wants to stay

- low, you will help him to stay lower by pressing him down.
- high, you will help him to stay higher by lifting him up.
- wide, you will help him to stay wider by springing his leg from inside out.
- narrow, you will help him to stay narrower by sweep his leg from outside in.

There is no single perfect stance that can be used to against throw but constant changing.

[Laukarbo]

There is no single perfect stance that can be used to against throw but constant changing.

this is absolutely true,but theres also no claim that theres a stance that can defend all takedowns...but lowering ur center of weight is "one" good way for certain takedowns..of course the stance alone doesnt do the work..also footwork and arm control....

the only sportfighting we do is sanda,combat you cant really train just prepare,then again the average person doesnt have to fight for his life on a daily basis..so sanda or any other sportfighting at least gives you a bit of a feeling for distance,timing etc....

anyway when the schit hit´s the fan it always goes back to:
yat daam, yi lek, saam gung fu....
:)

[Frost]

are you referring to actually competing or the way sports guys train with emphasis on sparring under agreed rules with gross motor movements and using progressive resistance? If it’s the latter then sports fighting can cover virtually anything you want: from stand up to clinch and ground, with and without weapons and with more than 1 opponent if you wish, you can allow so called dirty tactics or not and the level or protection used is totally up to you

If you mean guys who actually compete then its different you have to play by the agreed rules and when training for a comp you do train towards those rules so in that sense you do not train everything, in the fact you don’t use certain hand formations or attack illegal areas (your dirty tactics)……… BUT even so they still push the rules to the limit and use as many dirty tactics as you can get away with, head butts in the clinch, neck cranks if the refs not looking, chin in the eye etc so its not as if sports guys have a moral dislike to them, its just they know that there are rules and you can only get away with so much 

So comparing the above to chi sao or pushing hands I feel is wrong: chi sao and pushing hands concentrate on one small area of fighting I agree, they teach close range fighting skills and as such concentrate on only one area of combat, sports training as I have pointed out above can cover everything.

Now if you are just referring to grappling/rolling then that is more like chi sao etc in that it only covers a small part of fighting, but then I don’t know any pure grapplers who think what they are doing is fighting or will really allow them to defend themselves in the street, they know grappling might help but its not the whole game

The underlying question remains what is the best way to train for the street and to train those dirty tactics and techniques you cant spar with? To develop a sound sports based delivery system first and add them in as and when you need them (if I can land punches on my opponents face all day when he is fully resisting then poking him in the eye shouldn’t be too hard should it? If I can mount and ground and pound an opponent in a sports context how hard is it to mount and rip his throat out?) or to spend a lot of time simulating those strikes and then hoping to be able to use them in a fight? I suppose how you answer this question says a lot about how you personally approach fighting.

A second question is how important is all the dirty tactic and street stuff to you in regard to your overall strategy? is it the reason you train and the reason you dislike the sports stuff because you feel on the street things are different? If so then my question is when were you last in a serious street fight, not a drunken pub brawl but a real life and death fight? Was it a month ago, 6 months a year or longer? If you have been training for over a decade and really concentrating on the street and tactics for that and only had 1 serious fight in that time doesn’t that make you think about your reasons for training? (a general question not aimed at anyone in particular)

Me personally I don’t mind not training the dirty stuff that much and sparring within agreed rules because its been years since I was in a street fight, and that’s despite going to university in the city Geoff Thompson made famous, and despite attending a kung fu school in a part of Birmingham even the police didn’t like walking in, its just not that big an issue for me. I know what I do works against an opponent trying to hurt me and resist me fully, I know guys who have also made it work on the street, and I enjoy training and its fun, and to be honest if it was the street I was really worried about I’d train awareness and weapons above empty hand.

The intent is no different in sports training than any other training, when I hit the pads etc I am looking to destroy them like I would my opponent, when I am sparring I am looking to finish him as quickly as possible within the agreed rules, its just this doesn’t happen very often in reality with a resisting opponent.

People also argue that sports training is unrealistic because you start facing your opponent with your hands up etc, whilst this is the case in competition it is simply not the case in actual training: You often start drills and sparring from disadvantaged positions just as you would do on the street: Under mount, under knee on stomach, on your back against a standing opponent, pinned up against a cage wall, when the opponent is fully in on a double leg or has the Thai clinch fully locked in and so on and so on.

About the only thing I feel sports training lacks is awareness and avoidance training, but to be honest I never really saw this in TCMA, there was very little fence work to keep safe distance, little use verbal cues to misdirect and set up strikes, how to avoid certain places and people etc

[Yum Cha]

are you referring to actually competing or the way sports guys train with emphasis on sparring under agreed rules with gross motor movements and using progressive resistance? If it’s the latter then sports fighting can cover virtually anything you want: from stand up to clinch and ground, with and without weapons and with more than 1 opponent if you wish, you can allow so called dirty tactics or not and the level or protection used is totally up to you

I'm referring to the training, and the focus on ring skills, and the 'bad' side would be to limit your training and focus on only what works in the ring.

The work-around, as you pointed out, is to change up the type of sparring, to include other scenarios.


If you mean guys who actually compete then its different you have to play by the agreed rules and when training for a comp you do train towards those rules so in that sense you do not train everything, in the fact you don’t use certain hand formations or attack illegal areas (your dirty tactics)……… BUT even so they still push the rules to the limit and use as many dirty tactics as you can get away with, head butts in the clinch, neck cranks if the refs not looking, chin in the eye etc so its not as if sports guys have a moral dislike to them, its just they know that there are rules and you can only get away with so much

If you are training to compete, then that is your objective, and a good one at that, but sooner or later, you have to come back for the traditional skills, or lose/sacrifice/discard them. I'm addressing specifically TCMA people who don't want to lose/sacrifice/discard their TCMA skills.


So comparing the above to chi sao or pushing hands I feel is wrong: chi sao and pushing hands concentrate on one small area of fighting I agree, they teach close range fighting skills and as such concentrate on only one area of combat, sports training as I have pointed out above can cover everything.

Yes, can cover everything. And should, but often doesn't. But that's not really the point, the point is that an 'exercise' becomes the objective, not a stepping stone. Its obviously a lot more demanding and hardcore than chi sau and push hands, fair enough.


Now if you are just referring to grappling/rolling then that is more like chi sao etc in that it only covers a small part of fighting, but then I don’t know any pure grapplers who think what they are doing is fighting or will really allow them to defend themselves in the street, they know grappling might help but its not the whole game

Na, just really talking about training TCMA, and keeping the good juice, not losing it.


The underlying question remains what is the best way to train for the street and to train those dirty tactics and techniques you cant spar with?

Amen brother, that's what I'm looking for. So far my thinking is to train as similar to actual fighting as possible, and then to break down and approximate with the missing pieces. This is all supported with conditioning, technique training, pad training and 2 man exercises.



To develop a sound sports based delivery system first and add them in as and when you need them (if I can land punches on my opponents face all day when he is fully resisting then poking him in the eye shouldn’t be too hard should it?

If I can mount and ground and pound an opponent in a sports context how hard is it to mount and rip his throat out?) or to spend a lot of time simulating those strikes and then hoping to be able to use them in a fight?

I suppose how you answer this question says a lot about how you personally approach fighting.

Developing a sound sport based foundation and adding on is just what I recommend. The real issue is how long to stay in that stage. Both the examples you mentioned, punching in the head, eye, mount and pound, work a charm.

Maybe I find this topic so interesting because Pak Mei doesn't apply to sport as well as Ju Jitsu or even CLF and other long arm styles, and I'm looking for insight.

I can 'fight' with two personalities, sport and PM. It took me too long to learn how to use the PM and overcome my 'habits', and once I did, the ride got faster and faster. I'm trying to figure out how to manage it better, instead of just letting it happen.



A second question is how important is all the dirty tactic and street stuff to you in regard to your overall strategy? is it the reason you train and the reason you dislike the sports stuff because you feel on the street things are different? If so then my question is when were you last in a serious street fight, not a drunken pub brawl but a real life and death fight?

Was it a month ago, 6 months a year or longer? If you have been training for over a decade and really concentrating on the street and tactics for that and only had 1 serious fight in that time doesn’t that make you think about your reasons for training? (a general question not aimed at anyone in particular)


Everything I have is probably dirty by most people's book. I don't dislike the sport stuff, that's the problem, I enjoy it, but it wasn't until I took it off the front burner that my real Pak Mei started to develop, and then it still took years. Its not about street v sport, its about the ability to execute my sh1t as it should be done in a live, resisting environment.

My last brawl was too long ago to mean anything about me now, and my hardest fights have been sport. But, I can tell you stories time and time again of how I've backed down guys that thought they were hard men and wanted to prove it. In the last 20 years all my 'fights' have been one hit affairs. He hits me and runs away, or I hit him and he runs away.

I'm just an old donkey anyway, I'm really focused on training up my little brothers, and giving them the best I can.

And, regardless, I don't train just to fight, never have.


Me personally I don’t mind not training the dirty stuff that much and sparring within agreed rules because its been years since I was in a street fight, and that’s despite going to university in the city Geoff Thompson made famous, and despite attending a kung fu school in a part of Birmingham even the police didn’t like walking in, its just not that big an issue for me. I know what I do works against an opponent trying to hurt me and resist me fully, I know guys who have also made it work on the street, and I enjoy training and its fun, and to be honest if it was the street I was really worried about I’d train awareness and weapons above empty hand.

The intent is no different in sports training than any other training, when I hit the pads etc I am looking to destroy them like I would my opponent, when I am sparring I am looking to finish him as quickly as possible within the agreed rules, its just this doesn’t happen very often in reality with a resisting opponent.

Yes, the intent, aggression, ring-craft, all critical. Its just the bloody techs. That's why BJJ is so strong, they can train their tech right up to the little pop before the joint goes and its the ducks guts. How can I find that kind of reality training for my style, that's the big question. Without throwing the baby out with the bath water.


People also argue that sports training is unrealistic because you start facing your opponent with your hands up etc, whilst this is the case in competition it is simply not the case in actual training: You often start drills and sparring from disadvantaged positions just as you would do on the street: Under mount, under knee on stomach, on your back against a standing opponent, pinned up against a cage wall, when the opponent is fully in on a double leg or has the Thai clinch fully locked in and so on and so on.

About the only thing I feel sports training lacks is awareness and avoidance training, but to be honest I never really saw this in TCMA, there was very little fence work to keep safe distance, little use verbal cues to misdirect and set up strikes, how to avoid certain places and people etc

I know this applies to my style more as compared to others, and I don't expect everybody to see my issue in the same light. Thanks for the insight.

What I'm after is a way to train my techs with reasonable proximity to the real thing with a resisting live opponent, and sport style training for us, has to really be managed heavily to keep the student on track. Its almost like one day, 'click' the light goes on, and they get it, and then they are off and running.

Personally, I'm very big on strategy, and that involves a lot of what you call avoidance and awareness - all part of the 'pre game' festivities.

[meltdawn]

there's nothing wrong with sport fighting.

from my own opinion, my kung fu has taught me to have defense against unpredicted attacks such as kidnapping, mugging, sexual assault. it's about living in a mindset of awareness on the street - defense.

sport fighting inherently teaches awareness of situations, however it's in situations where both parties start from the same point - they both know there will be a fight - thus attacks are premeditated to a certain extent so it's based in offense.

either on can get you where you want to go, if you keep on your path and are honest with your personal limitations.

[Ozzy Dave]

"Yes, the intent, aggression, ring-craft, all critical. Its just the bloody techs. That's why BJJ is so strong, they can train their tech right up to the little pop before the joint goes and its the ducks guts. How can I find that kind of reality training for my style, that's the big question. Without throwing the baby out with the bath water."


I think it depends on what you want to focus on as your main weapon set.

Many TCMA emphasise a range of striking techniques as main weapons and entries and what I've found is that training with gear, as in body armour and full face protection is more beneficial for anatagonistic combative training of those techniques.

This allows you to develop more accurate placement of your hand weapons and more fully appreciate the benefits / limitations of traditional techniques.

Dave

[Knifefighter]

The "we don't have rules, but sports do, so we can practice our too deadly without rules techniques (although only in a pretend manner), is the exact same type of thinking that causes the "no rules" crowd to get handily beaten every time they have been tested against the "rules" crowd for the last 150 years since Judo was invented precisely to prove how stupid that mindset is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there's nothing wrong with sport fighting.

from my own opinion, my kung fu has taught me to have defense against unpredicted attacks such as kidnapping, mugging, sexual assault. it's about living in a mindset of awareness on the street - defense.

sport fighting inherently teaches awareness of situations, however it's in situations where both parties start from the same point - they both know there will be a fight - thus attacks are premeditated to a certain extent so it's based in offense.

either on can get you where you want to go, if you keep on your path and are honest with your personal limitations.

Which should make sport fighting all the more easier for you.

[Knifefighter]

What I'm after is a way to train my techs with reasonable proximity to the real thing with a resisting live opponent, and sport style training for us, has to really be managed heavily to keep the student on track. Its almost like one day, 'click' the light goes on, and they get it, and then they are off and running.

Tell me what your techniques are and I can tell you a way to train them in the sport model that will make them significantly more effective.

[Knifefighter]

I'm referring to the training, and the focus on ring skills, and the 'bad' side would be to limit your training and focus on only what works in the ring.

Training to focus just on ring skills with the sport model will develop significantly will more ability than will training in just techniques that are "too dangerous" to practice full force.

[Knifefighter]

Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball....baseball....basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being "PROFESSIONAL" is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day.

Plenty of people hold down day jobs and compete at the recreational level in most sports.


The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

And where and how, exactly, are you training without RULES?

This looks to be pretty rules based to me- much more than any MMA match you are going to see:

http://hlk415.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/9325838-hung-loong-kwoon-sparring

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah...they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq'd. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.

[t_niehoff]

This "argument" has been going on since the sport model was applied to martial arts.

The rationale for why the sport model is vastly superior to the traditional model of training is easily found on the web(it's based on the specificity principle of skill development: that we only develop a skill by really doing that skill). It's pointless to rehash it.

The TMAs are infested with people who want to believe that they can develop fighting skills without fighting.

The bottom like is that the evidence proves that the sport model of training is simply a vast improvement over the traditional approach to MA training. We see this from the results obtained by people doing the training. Not argument, not what we fantasize, not our speculation, etc. but from the evidence.

And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.

[Knifefighter]

oh yeah...they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq'd. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.

OK, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?

[hskwarrior]

ok, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?

secret -classified - on a need to know basis :D

LMAO....are you ALWAYS on DEBUNK MODE? LMAO.......ancient chinese secret

[Knifefighter]

secret -classified - on a need to know basis :D

Frank- can you see why we give you are hard time for this cr@p? First you put down sport fighting because it has rules. Then the only evidence you can provide for your contact training is two guys heavily geared up, sparring with more rules than you can shake a fist at. Then, when asked where any evidence is that you are training without the rules, you give an answer like this.

Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?

[hskwarrior]

Frank- can you see why we give you are hard time for this cr@p? First you put down sport fighting because it has rules. Then the only evidence you can provide for your contact training is two guys heavily geared up, sparring with more rules than you can shake a fist at. Then, when asked where any evidence is that you are training without the rules, you give an answer like this.

Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?

DUDE, i'm nowhere near the kind of people you are focusing on. You think im putting it down. How can i put it down if i'm pushing for my students to go that route? What you see as fighting and I see as fighting are not the same. that's ok. i'm not against bjj because for someone who has been in enough street fights that went to the ground i know the benefit of BJJ. I don't put down any styles or methods. I recognize the hogwash and make sure my stuff is hog wash free.

I haven't condemned any fighting method. i only raise my hand to indicate that TCMA is on a Sunday Football game at the park with your friends while MMA is more on a NFL level. do you see my point. In MANY cases i totally agree with you and you make enough sense that i turn and look at what i teach so that my students don't get the short end of the stick.

and dude, my answer to you is one with my tongue sticking out at you...or smiled....but i answered you that way cause i knew it would push your buttons. i don't have filim of my guys fighting all out with no rules. in a controlled setting there are always rules. i know this. it's YOU who are running around like you have nothing better to do in life but get up the arses of TCMA people.

Additionally, there is a hand full of worth while people here on the forum. i'm not on here to impress anyone. so i have nothing to prove. i participate on this forum because its a community of Martial artists on all levels.

if YOU are not training BS to your guys, why waste your time and energy on a forum pent up with all that energy? LET or ALLOW the others to teach their mess. the way you go off all the time makes people think you're kinda off your rocker whether you make your points or not.

my question to you is this...why has this become your obsession? like you see, i too see the garbage some people talk about. and i mean from almost everyone here on the forum. but my sifu taught me to keep my mouth shut in most cases but sometimes what people come up with here on the forum is outlandish...too outlandish that i can't stay quiet.

to conclude, you know why i don't post up things we train other than very low level basics? cause i don't want outsiders to see how we train. it's a tradition of my lineage going back to the beginning. but moreso, i have nothing to prove. i'm not making wild claims like CLF beats all. i do say CLF has a great stand up game. i openly admit that its ground game is non existent.

but i'm not an open book for any old tom d1ck and harry to attempt to pick apart what i teach. i was raised in a secretive society and you can say that rubbed off on me. trust me, there is much more to me than i publicly share.


Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?

i know that people will come to whatever conclusions their minds reach. i know for sure that no one has YET to walk away from my training claiming its fraudulent. what i teach is practical techniques for practical situations. i don't not claim to be on the MMA level.

[Knifefighter]

DUDE, i'm nowhere near the kind of people you are focusing on. You think im putting it down. How can i put it down if i'm pushing for my students to go that route? What you see as fighting and I see as fighting are not the same. that's ok. i'm not against bjj because for someone who has been in enough street fights that went to the ground i know the benefit of BJJ. I don't put down any styles or methods. I recognize the hogwash and make sure my stuff is hog wash free.

I haven't condemned any fighting method. i only raise my hand to indicate that TCMA is on a Sunday Football game at the park with your friends while MMA is more on a NFL level. do you see my point. In MANY cases i totally agree with you and you make enough sense that i turn and look at what i teach so that my students don't get the short end of the stick.

and dude, my answer to you is one with my tongue sticking out at you...or smiled....but i answered you that way cause i knew it would push your buttons. i don't have filim of my guys fighting all out with no rules. in a controlled setting there are always rules. i know this. it's YOU who are running around like you have nothing better to do in life but get up the arses of TCMA people.

Additionally, there is a hand full of worth while people here on the forum. i'm not on here to impress anyone. so i have nothing to prove. i participate on this forum because its a community of Martial artists on all levels.

if YOU are not training BS to your guys, why waste your time and energy on a forum pent up with all that energy? LET or ALLOW the others to teach their mess. the way you go off all the time makes people think you're kinda off your rocker whether you make your points or not.

my question to you is this...why has this become your obsession? like you see, i too see the garbage some people talk about. and i mean from almost everyone here on the forum. but my sifu taught me to keep my mouth shut in most cases but sometimes what people come up with here on the forum is outlandish...too outlandish that i can't stay quiet.

to conclude, you know why i don't post up things we train other than very low level basics? cause i don't want outsiders to see how we train. it's a tradition of my lineage going back to the beginning. but moreso, i have nothing to prove. i'm not making wild claims like CLF beats all. i do say CLF has a great stand up game. i openly admit that its ground game is non existent.

but i'm not an open book for any old tom d1ck and harry to attempt to pick apart what i teach. i was raised in a secretive society and you can say that rubbed off on me. trust me, there is much more to me than i publicly share.

Tell ya what... you want me to stop making fun of you? Then quit making statement about the rules of the sport model when you clearly have them in everything you do.

[Sardinkahnikov]

traditional martial arts are better and this video proves it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlBj1GiQaI4

can a sport fighter do a flip over a sword or become invisible (3.35)? NO so fvck u!!1

[hskwarrior]

Tell ya what... you want me to stop making fun of you? Then quit making statement about the rules of the sport model when you clearly have them in everything you do.

brother you can make fun of me all you want. will that change who i am? will it change the perspective of anyone who comes to train with me? No. LOL.

Look, i can make fun of you as much as you do me. Do i? really? i try to play with you to get you to lighten up.

How about this, if i talk about sports model rules, i will also openly admit to having rules during my students sparring. deal?

[Knifefighter]

brother you can make fun of me all you want. will that change who i am? will it change the perspective of anyone who comes to train with me? No. LOL.

Look, i can make fun of you as much as you do me. Do i? really? i try to play with you to get you to lighten up.

How about this, if i talk about sports model rules, i will also openly admit to having rules during my students sparring. deal?

Sounds fair.

[hskwarrior]

i was gonna say can i get that in writing...but i guess you beat me to it hahahaha.

[Northwind]

The TMAs are infested with people who want to believe that they can develop fighting skills without fighting.

"Infested" perhaps, like a house infested with termites, and thusly does not mean all houses equal termites and the house model should be demolished by those living in fancy caves.



The bottom like is that the evidence proves that the sport model of training is simply a vast improvement over the traditional approach to MA training.

This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.


...not what we fantasize, not our speculation, etc. but from the evidence.
And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.



And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.

Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

[Kansuke]

3. Several people have commented on "dirty fighting", and there is an unmistakable social issue with 'fighting dirty' in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.
.



Not sure what you meant by this, exactly.

[Dragonzbane76]

This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.

sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the "street" not much jump at all. Plus in place you already have the foundation for resistance tested. There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powers."


And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.

the general concensus is what is shared.

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.


Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts. If you don't think so lets put some "master" in the ring with lets say... um... George Saint P. and don't site the "realz deadly" argument on this one, the first UFC's had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.

[Laukarbo]

I also teach tcma,hung kuen in particular but we also join sanda tournaments..
I see it like that:we (me or my students) do not claim anything..hung kuen has techniques thats useless for sportfighting but usefull for selfdefence (not in a too deadly sense) .. coming in a situation where u have to defend yourself doesnt happen on a daily basis of course also depents where you hang about..if you come into a combat situation most likely the person you fight with is not an mma guy or similar sport fighter..most sport fighter i know arent thugs sort of peeps..so most likely u fight off a drunk etc.
Im in germany,most of the cma schools here also join sanda,many include even ground fighting (having seminars at their schools etc,where they invite bjj people etc) also none of them claim any too deadly for the streets stuff..as a matter of fact I have been living on the philippines and hongkong for almost 6 years and met many cma teachers there and most of them were realistic about their abilities...fact remains u cant learn fighting without fighting..how far u go is up to you....as for videos;I know people I wish they had videos up so people could see cma is better than it appears on the net..but what is the net? Most people from cma fields I know dont care about the net,people here on the board is just a small percentage and doesnt reflect the general state of cma...Im back in germany since a year and already joined sanda fights we lost some we won some nothing special,I have a russian wrestler come to my school on a regular basis..thats for the sanda guys but also for whoever is interested...I think Im just one of many,many more than people may think...oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class....just giving some thoughts from my side of things

[Dragonzbane76]

oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class....just giving some thoughts from my side of things

I have nothing against forms if what you are promoting is what you mentioned, In my earlier years I learned 100's of forms, I still do some here and there that I find benifical in the departments you listed. When someone starts spouting that forms are fighting argument is when I raise the red flag.

funny that you list the last 15 minutes of class as forms time, my early years was the same, you learned maybe 3-4 moves and then practiced on your own until next class and if it was good enough you were taught 3-4 more movements. :p

[Sardinkahnikov]

This sport vs "traditional" thing is nonsense. It seems that people use the expression "TMA" to refer to hippie tree hugging form training. In martial arts, tradition = fighting, because that's what the creators of the arts had in mind. The non-fighting, no-effort, no-sweat no-blood kind of training is a deturpation - which is not intrinsically bad, but it's not what you should do if you want to practice anything worthy of the "martial" adjective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is nothing wrong with the sport mode of fighting, it build all the things needed for being a good fighter: Speed, stamina, strength, skill, intent and the fighter learns very quickly what works and what doesn't.
It is true that it has rules and limitations, but what that truly means is that if you can't win under those conditions, when there is some "level field", how do you hope to win when there are NONE ??

[Northwind]

sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the "street" not much jump at all.

Not much jump? No ref., no stand-off, no timed match, no prior knowledge of opponent...I'd say that there is quite a jump.
Applications learning is different from applications practice, which is different from 2-man drills, which is different from 2-man forms, which is different from sparring, which is different from fighting, which is different from sport combat, which is different from military tactics on the battlefield, which is different from personal self-defense, which is different from debating, which is different from...



There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powers."

I would agree. But interestingly enough I don't think we have anyone on these forums like that ("pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powes")...



fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts.
General sweeping stereotypical statement again. Depends on the context of what a "fighter" is and what a "fight" is. See my "different from" statements above.



If you don't think so lets put some "master" in the ring with lets say... um... George Saint P.
"Let's" = let us. I would think that if said "master" were interested in doing so then he/she would. That's not up to you nor me. And again, context of words.



and don't site the "realz deadly" argument on this one, the first UFC's had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.
I've never "site" (cite)d anything of the sort, so the "on this one" reference is moot.

[t_niehoff]

"
This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.


If you take your head out of the sand, you'll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist -- the sport fighter wins easily. What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can't fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.

The sport model develops skill; that's why we see world class athletes.



And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.


The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.



Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

This is a very easy thing to prove -- just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?

If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can't we see any evidence of that?

Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can't provide any evidence?

[Northwind]

If you take your head out of the sand, you'll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist -- the sport fighter wins easily.


Hmmm... A personal insult; nice. My head's never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the "evidence" of what you're referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.



What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can't fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.

Actually "we" have not seen that at all. It's merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don't think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.



The sport model develops skill; that's why we see world class athletes.

Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.



The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.
[QUOTE]

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
This is a very easy thing to prove -- just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?

I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don't think I am alone in my interests. That's why you have never seen that.



If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can't we see any evidence of that?

See above.


Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can't provide any evidence?
lol not even going to justify your attempts at wit here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false.
So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?

Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.
I won't say that "whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins", but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).

[Northwind]

.
So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?

I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of "ALL TCMA" is this or that and it's offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.

.
Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.

And so do mine.

.
I won't say that "whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins", but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).
Again - context of the term "fight".

[t_niehoff]

Hmmm... A personal insult; nice. My head's never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the "evidence" of what you're referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.


I didn't make any personal insult. But all anyone needs to do is look around -- we can see what sport fighters can do. And we can see what happens whenever sport fighters fight with TCMAists. And we never see any evidence of TCMAists demonstrating any significant fighting skills. What more do you need?




Actually "we" have not seen that at all. It's merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don't think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.


Sure we have. Why don't you point me to some evidence of TCMAists that have good levels of fighting skills so that we can all see them for ourselves?

I can't help it if you or they find the truth insulting.

We know what it takes to develop good fighting skills -- and TCMAists aren't doing the training that it takes.



Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.


Fighting is an athletic activity (even if you don't want to believe it -- and that's one of the many problems with the TCMA perspective.



The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.



Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false.



Yeah, and I have killed hundreds of ninja.

Look, if you have fighting skills, then they will work on the str33t or the gym or a ring. Does your punch only work when no one is watching? ;) If you have fighting skill, then it is the simplest thing to show: all you need to do is go to a good MMA or MT gym with your video camera. Be the first! Show the world what TCMAs can really do. No one can argue with evidence that we can see.

But we all know that you won't do that. Because you would get your ass spanked by the white belt level MMA fighters.



I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don't think I am alone in my interests. That's why you have never seen that.


ROFLOL! Yeah, that's it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of "ALL TCMA" is this or that and it's offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.

And so do mine.

Again - context of the term "fight".

No, saying that you can do something that others can do to is not relevant to a thread about "what is wrong with sport fighting".
If NO sport fighters could do what you do, THEN it would be relevant.

"fight", is not a subjective term-
–noun
1.
a battle or combat.
2.
any contest or struggle: a fight for recovery from an illness.
3.
an angry argument or disagreement: Whenever we discuss politics, we end up in a fight.
4.
Boxing . a bout or contest.
5.
a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.
6.
ability, will, or inclination to fight: There was no fight left in him.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to engage in battle or in single combat; attempt to defend oneself against or to subdue, defeat, or destroy an adversary.
8.
to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something: He fought bravely against despair.
–verb (used with object)
9.
to contend with in battle or combat; war against: England fought Germany.
10.
to contend with or against in any manner: to fight despair; to fight the passage of a bill.
11.
to carry on (a battle, duel, etc.).
12.
to maintain (a cause, quarrel, etc.) by fighting or contending.
13.
to make (one's way) by fighting or striving.
14.
to cause or set (a boxer, animal, etc.) to fight.
15.
to manage or maneuver (troops, ships, guns, planes, etc.) in battle.



One guy trying to beat another is a fight, period.

If sport fighting isn't fighting then it should be all the more easier for a "real" fighter to be a "sport fighter".

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

I have seen the "evidence" of what you're referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.

Here's some evidence for no rules fights where the sport fighters dominated again.

Kung fu master with 30 years experience vs. BJJ Blue Belt with 2 years experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEml6-JNwaA

BJJ purple belt vs. kung fu instructor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4&feature=related

BJJ BB Royler Gracie vs. Street Kempo BB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMCc3zQNyo&feature=related

Rorion Gracie vs. BB Hapkido Instructor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-srqZb7Kbg&feature=related

BJJ purple belt vs. Aikijujutsu Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&p=F2DF177DC7FC3F79&playnext=1&index=37

Misc Gracies vs. Misc Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAhyB1xFuKM

BJJ BB vs. karate BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM


Got any for no rules where the non-sport guys won?

[t_niehoff]

Here's some evidence for no rules fights where the sport fighters dominated again.

Got any for no rules where the non-sport guys won?

Haven't you heard? TCMAists, or "real fighters", aren't "interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling" or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Haven't you heard? TCMAists, or "real fighters", aren't "interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling" or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).

Amazing about the anecdotes of the developers and reknown practioners of TCMA that actually did fight, one wonders what was going through THEIR heads when THEY FOUGHT to test and develop their arts?
I guess they would be looked down upon by the "enlightened" and "authentic" TCMA of today.

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

Amazing about the anecdotes of the developers and reknown practioners of TCMA that actually did fight, one wonders what was going through THEIR heads when THEY FOUGHT to test and develop their arts?
I guess they would be looked down upon by the "enlightened" and "authentic" TCMA of today.

Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.

[t_niehoff]

Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.

How dare you question the legends! We all know that Davey Crockett killed a bear when he was three.

[Northwind]

I didn't make any personal insult.
Saying I have to take my head out of the sand is not a compliment. What would you call it? (Gee am I going to get sarcasm in return?)



But all anyone needs to do is look around -- we can see what sport fighters can do. And we can see what happens whenever sport fighters fight with TCMAists. And we never see any evidence of TCMAists demonstrating any significant fighting skills. What more do you need?

What more do I need for what? The "evidence" you're referring to, again, is fighting in the ring at combat sporting events, which I've already said, again, they will dominate that arena.



Sure we have. Why don't you point me to some evidence of TCMAists that have good levels of fighting skills so that we can all see them for ourselves?

No. "WE" have not. History has shown them. I have seen them. Youtube ufc fight clips? No. I'm not into that.


I can't help it if you or they find the truth insulting.

Your "theory" is not "truth". Your insults are insulting (and your attitude).


We know what it takes to develop good fighting skills -- and TCMAists aren't doing the training that it takes.
[QUOTE]
Who is the "WE"? Again it's context.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Fighting is an athletic activity (even if you don't want to believe it -- and that's one of the many problems with the TCMA perspective.

LMAO - you've never been to one of my classes - pretty sure the athleticism is strong, so your alluding to my not believing it is moot. My point was "skill" as a keyword - being context relevant.



Yeah, and I have killed hundreds of ninja.

Awesome. Can I get a side of pirates with that?


Look, if you have fighting skills, then they will work on the str33t or the gym or a ring.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Context is important.


Does your punch only work when no one is watching? ;)

Yep. It's like quantum-physics and stuff man and I just don't get it. As soon as someone watches me, my hand just falls to the floor. Please give me the secret to be able to punch when people watch.... :P


If you have fighting skill, then it is the simplest thing to show: all you need to do is go to a good MMA or MT gym with your video camera. Be the first! Show the world what TCMAs can really do. No one can argue with evidence that we can see.

And pray tell...Just why do I need to "show" anything? It works for me - I use my fighting ability when I need to - not to "prove" anything. I never got into the martial arts to "show" anybody anything - there's a KEY difference...


But we all know that you won't do that. Because you would get your ass spanked by the white belt level MMA fighters.

No insults eh?
You're right I won't do that. But I sure as hell know it's not because I would be beat - but because there is zero point to it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.

Perhaps, but the point is that they DID fight, DID test which means that modern TCMA have NO EXCUSE not to do the same.

[hskwarrior]

If sport fighting isn't fighting then it should be all the more easier for a "real" fighter to be a "sport fighter".

Sport Fighting IS fighting. Street fighting IS fighting. The only difference is one trains on a professional or advanced level of "FIGHTING" while others looks at TCMA as a sort of HOBBY so to speak. Learning TCMA will never make you a fighter. But, by learning TCMA you should be able to APPLY your learned skills to be taken seriously.

a street fighter will fight a MMA guy if he has to even if it means he will get his arse kicked. but he won't back down. today, you'll get a Kung Fu big mouth that freezes when the spot light hits him. this is why gung fu gets a bad name. but a street fighter who picked up gung fu to supplement his arsenal has a better chance than your hokey pokey finoke gung fu guy.

It's true, many TCMA people of late have been nothing more than FORM *****S. It's been MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of being a TCMA'er that there are two...maybe three kinds of TCMA'er. i'll focus one two.....

One: is your local neighborhood KUNG FU school who only fight in point tournaments and would NEVER put themselves in the light of being a THUG...a RUFFIAN. TWO: then you have your schools that are deeply connected to the TONG societies. It's within this setting that gungfu students are more likely than not get into fights. and we then get called GANGSTERS cause we WILL fight you. WTF

The problem with TCMA is that the neighborhood schools only fight in patty cake settings. The Tong schools prefer to stay out of the ring and only use their gung fu in the streets. In the end, i've never in my life heard a gung fu school say there were too deadly. that is a very foreign thought because any kind of a fighter knows there's someone out there that is a better fighter than him.

IF more gung fu schools today de-emphasized forms practice and heavily encouraged FIGHT TRAINING before ever teaching a student a form the benefit will be two fold. one, you know how to fight. two, when you do your forms you will have a better understanding of what you're doing in them.

But, MMA is ALL FIGHT. which is more condusive for the athletic types. not everyone is an athlete. And, it wouldn't be fair to those who want to learn a martial art for all the reasons aside from fighting.

MMA's mindset, conditioning, skills are right where they need to be. as a gung fu person i will be the one to say yes gung fu people need to wake up and WORK THEIR GUNG FU. I remember along time ago when Gung Fu had a great reputation for fighting. somewhere down the line we all turned to studio fighters and theorists. But i have faith that because of MMA....KUNG FU is either going to rise to the occasion or fall to the way side.

I know what i plan to do.

[Northwind]

No, saying that you can do something that others can do to is not relevant to a thread about "what is wrong with sport fighting".
If NO sport fighters could do what you do, THEN it would be relevant.

You're taking what I said completely out of context. It was a REPLY to what was said to me - not a reply to the statement of the thread subject line - thus making it relevant.


"fight", is not a subjective term-
snip...One guy trying to beat another is a fight, period....snip

Yes, it is. Someone jumping me in an alleyway. I must use "fighting skills" but it's not a "fight" in the same manner that a "fight" happens in the ring.


If sport fighting isn't fighting then it should be all the more easier for a "real" fighter to be a "sport fighter".

I never said that it wasn't fighting - I am saying that the context is key.

[Northwind]

Haven't you heard? TCMAists, or "real fighters", aren't "interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling" or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).
LMAO Yeah, that's it.

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

Sport Fighting IS fighting. Street fighting IS fighting. The only difference is one trains on a professional or advanced level of "FIGHTING" while others looks at TCMA as a sort of HOBBY so to speak. .

I think you will find the majority of participants in sport fighting (as well as all other sporting activities) are hobbiests also.


But, MMA is ALL FIGHT. which is more condusive for the athletic types. not everyone is an athlete. And, it wouldn't be fair to those who want to learn a martial art for all the reasons aside from fighting.

My experience has been that the sport fighting model attracts athletes, but also turns non-athletes into athletes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're taking what I said completely out of context. It was a REPLY to what was said to me - not a reply to the statement of the thread subject line - thus making it relevant.

Yes, it is. Someone jumping me in an alleyway. I must use "fighting skills" but it's not a "fight" in the same manner that a "fight" happens in the ring.


I never said that it wasn't fighting - I am saying that the context is key.

Context is indeed the key AND the context is that if you can't be effective in a limited rules environment you will be even LESS effective in a NO RULES one.
THAT is the context.

[hskwarrior]

My experience has been that the sport fighting model attracts athletes, but also turns non-athletes into athletes.

This is true. But, IMHO if MMA were to give FORMS a chance it would open their eyes to another level not higher...just a different level of things. But with everything in life comes balance....right now.....there is no real balance in martial arts. not yet.

[Northwind]

Context is indeed the key AND the context is that if you can't be effective in a limited rules environment you will be even LESS effective in a NO RULES one.
THAT is the context.
Okay now that is just plain confusing how you'r taking statements out of context and re-working them with an ending statement that's in a different context. I'm confused.
Since people in TCMAs have been able to defend themselves from attackers, then that seems pretty dam effective to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay now that is just plain confusing how you'r taking statements out of context and re-working them with an ending statement that's in a different context. I'm confused.
Since people in TCMAs have been able to defend themselves from attackers, then that seems pretty dam effective to me.

TCMA people Defending themselves from an attacker is relevant ONLY if sport fighters couldn't do that, and that is CERTAINLY not the case.
My point is this:
Sport fighting is basically fighting when 'all else is equal" and as such, puts the opponents on as equal a ground as possible ( within the ruleset if there is one) and as such, IF you CAN'T win there, you have even LESS hope of winning when things are NOT equal.
As has been proven over and over again.

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

Okay now that is just plain confusing how you'r taking statements out of context and re-working them with an ending statement that's in a different context. I'm confused.
Since people in TCMAs have been able to defend themselves from attackers, then that seems pretty dam effective to me.

This is true, but so have 90 lb housewives with zero training.

Personally, I'd rather go for the training that has more provable evidence of effectiveness, but to each his own.

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

This is true. But, IMHO if MMA were to give FORMS a chance it would open their eyes to another level not higher...just a different level of things. But with everything in life comes balance....right now.....there is real balance in martial arts. not yet.

What would the benefit of forms training be?

[hskwarrior]

What would the benefit of forms training be?

Since it's a personal endeavor i cannot speak on what it would do for you specifically. that's YOUR path as a martial artist. For myself, i consider my forms a form of CHINESE STYLE SHADOW BOXING because OUR forms are geared for realistic applications. Our techniques are not fancy or pretty. IMHO their pretty ugly. BUT they work.

Forms are in one way a poor man's work out. if you don't have a punching bag or space you can get your work out still by doing a form. Forms are not so easy to do if you follow the rules of how they should be performed. it's a good work out if you do them slowly in a low horse. you'd be amazed at how much you'd sweat just by doing a form or two.

Does a form have anything to do with FIGHTING....no. but if you focus your intent during your forms towards combat you'd see you can get something out of it.

FOR ALL the FORMS HATERS....all i can say is "try learning ONE form. just ONE form from beginning to end and perfect it. if you can honestly say afterwards you don't see the purpose in them....then at least you'd have a first hand point of view and you can honestly tell people why you didn't appreciate the form.

[LAPD=Knifefighter]

Since it's a personal endeavor i cannot speak on what it would do for you specifically. that's YOUR path as a martial artist. For myself, i consider my forms a form of CHINESE STYLE SHADOW BOXING because OUR forms are geared for realistic applications. Our techniques are not fancy or pretty. IMHO their pretty ugly. BUT they work.

Forms are in one way a poor man's work out. if you don't have a punching bag or space you can get your work out still by doing a form. Forms are not so easy to do if you follow the rules of how they should be performed. it's a good work out if you do them slowly in a low horse. you'd be amazed at how much you'd sweat just by doing a form or two.

Does a form have anything to do with FIGHTING....no. but if you focus your intent during your forms towards combat you'd see you can get something out of it.

FOR ALL the FORMS HATERS....all i can say is "try learning ONE form. just ONE form from beginning to end and perfect it. if you can honestly say afterwards you don't see the purpose in them....then at least you'd have a first hand point of view and you can honestly tell people why you didn't appreciate the form.

How would that benefit a MMA fighter who is already doing shadow boxing?

[hskwarrior]

How would that benefit a MMA fighter who is already doing shadow boxing?

In the ring NOTHING. But how do you know if you don't try? I know how to fight and i still like forms. :D IF a MMA guy does not know gung fu then forms are just foreign to him. To blindly shoot down forms without learning any is just pure ego.

You don't really think doing a form is easy do you?

[Yum Cha]

Maybe the subtlety of my question wasn't quite as well articulated as I had thought.

As far as fighting is concerned, sport or real, if you train sport fighting all the time, what are you unable to develop alternatively?

Its not as inflamitory as it sounds. i.e.

- if you use gloves, you can't grab. (how do you accomodate that?)

- If you use shin guards, you don't respect your shins. (how do you learn to rotate your shin to use the muscle on the outside to take the impact)

- I think sport makes you tend to be a headhunter. (is that a bad thing?)

- Its hard to do slipping hands (chi sau) with gloves (that's my biggie, hand speed)

- Bare handed, you tend to respect the single hits more.... (trust me...I'm a doctor)

I'm simply pushing an agenda that once you have done your good times banging around and getting the skills, you can work on other stuff, and bring it into play when you do play, like icing on the cake. That's how you bring more 'style' to your combat.

All the talk about 'the deadly'....


Knife asked the question, "tell me the training, and I'll tell you how to practice it"

Anybody else want to have a crack?

- There's the MMA biggie, elbows to the face. How do you practice that in sport, other than at top level hardcore?

- Knee stomps? (Any big joint attacks, the comitted ones, not subs) Seen some good training all padded up, but not too much live....

Eyes, what is the pre-occupation? They're on the face. either side of the nose, above the cheeks. pay your money, take your chances... Training that isn't an issue to me.

We agree, approximation training is fast-track, but then you have to break it down and do component training which is less efficient, but efficient to some degree.

So, how sport fighters train their 'the deadly', and what can we take from that?

[YouKnowWho]

'the deadly',

This is what MMA guys donot believe. For all those years, I still believe a groin kick followed by a fingers across the eys is the most effective initial attack. Sometime I don't feel like to argue with MMA guys on this issue. If we believe in something but others don't, it's not our responsibility to make others to believe. There is no need to educate someone if they don't even appreciate it.

One time I brought my teacher's special formula herbs wine to a party. After I found out that people still prefer their beer than my expensive herbs wine (cost me more than $200 to make), I don't feel like to share any more after that.

[TenTigers]

This is what MMA guys donot believe. For all those years, I still believe a groin kick followed by a fingers across the eys is the most effective initial attack. Sometime I don't feel like to argue with MMA guys on this issue. If we believe in something but others don't, it's not our responsibility to make others to believe. There is no need to educate someone if they don't even appreciate it.

One time I brought my teacher's special formula herbs wine to a party. After I found out that people still prefer their beer than my expensive herbs wine (cost me more than $200 to make), I don't feel like to share any more after that.
yeah,once they find out that there's lizards, sea horses, and deer antler in it, they probably would go for the Budweisers.
Nevermind the san pien chiew...

[Frost]

Maybe the subtlety of my question wasn't quite as well articulated as I had thought.

As far as fighting is concerned, sport or real, if you train sport fighting all the time, what are you unable to develop alternatively?

Its not as inflamitory as it sounds. i.e.

- if you use gloves, you can't grab. (how do you accomodate that?)
?

yes you can, it depends on what gloves you use and when, but if you couldnt grab with gloves on us grapplers would be sh*t out of luck :)


- If you use shin guards, you don't respect your shins. (how do you learn to rotate your shin to use the muscle on the outside to take the impact)?


Umm not being silly but what here is the question? you do know that thai fighters use shin guards all the time in sparring, and they manage to condition the shin just fine for 5 rounds of mayhem, you condition them on the pads and bags and and in ocasional sparring, but to be honest adrenaline carrys you through a lot of contact on the legs and shin


- I think sport makes you tend to be a headhunter. (is that a bad thing?)
?

No sports tells you to take the guy out as quickly as possible under the rules, and usually the 2 bests ways of taking someone out is massive head trauma or cutting off the air and blood supply to the brain, what training without gloves does is stops you hitting the head hard through fear of trading shots, unfortunantly on the street people are head hunters so its bes to be prepared for that


- Its hard to do slipping hands (chi sau) with gloves (that's my biggie, hand speed)
?

Again depends on the gloves and how you define chi sau, hand fighting and controlling the wrist, bicep and arm in the clinch are all done in MMA, if you mean trapping etc well i have yet to see thatreally work gloved or not gloved



- Bare handed, you tend to respect the single hits more.... (trust me...I'm a doctor)
?

yes and this makes you fearful of staying in range and trading, something you have to get used to, too mny of the sparring clips out there that are bare handed lack power lack hea shots and lack combinations, all of which you need on the street and in the ring


I'm simply pushing an agenda that once you have done your good times banging around and getting the skills, you can work on other stuff, and bring it into play when you do play, like icing on the cake. That's how you bring more 'style' to your combat. ?



prolem is this stuff is timing dependent and timing is the first thing to go...


All the talk about 'the deadly'....


Knife asked the question, "tell me the training, and I'll tell you how to practice it"

Anybody else want to have a crack?

- There's the MMA biggie, elbows to the face. How do you practice that in sport, other than at top level hardcore??


umm they have these things called elbow pads, they work great :)


- Knee stomps? (Any big joint attacks, the comitted ones, not subs) Seen some good training all padded up, but not too much live....?


and how do you train them.....this is the problem you cant not unless you are destroying training partners so its really a mute question


Eyes, what is the pre-occupation? They're on the face. either side of the nose, above the cheeks. pay your money, take your chances... Training that isn't an issue to me.

We agree, approximation training is fast-track, but then you have to break it down and do component training which is less efficient, but efficient to some degree.

So, how sport fighters train their 'the deadly', and what can we take from that?

want to attack the eyes put on eye protectors and go for it, if you can hit the head on a moving target you can probable hit the eys and throat, if you cant hit a moving target over and over then what are your chances of actually hitting these spots in a fight?

[YouKnowWho]

if you can hit the head on a moving target you can probable hit the eys and throat, if you cant hit a moving target over and over then what are your chances of actually hitting these spots in a fight?
To use 2 fingers to poke on your opponent's eyes will need a lot of accuracy and courage. I don't know you will have the stomach to have 2 eye balls on your finger tips. However, when you move your hand across your opponent's eyes, you will have 10 chances (5 fingers x 2 eyes) that one of your fingers will hit on one of your opponent's eye. A finger across the eye ball may not cause too much damage but it will take your opponent's vision away temporary. That little advantage will be all you need to do what you need to do in street fight.

[hskwarrior]

This is what MMA guys donot believe. For all those years, I still believe a groin kick followed by a fingers across the eys is the most effective initial attack.

Especially if you let your nails grow a little...then they become little knives.

[YouKnowWho]

Especially if you let your nails grow a little...then they become little knives.

And also put some red pepper powder on your finger nails.

[TenTigers]

Especially if you let your nails grow a little...then they become little knives.
yeah, but it's not neccesary. Ever just lightly accidentally poke yourself in the eye? Now imagine it done forcefully. I've been hit directly in the eye. The pain is excruciating.
I had a female student, who was a massage therapist-very short nails. She was practicing a takedown involving a neck grab. Her partner was sweating and her finger slipped across the back of his neck. She pulled out a ribbon of flesh from her fingernail.
When we do an eye strike, it is with all four fingers, (nevermind that "twin dragons fighting for the pearls" sh1t, two eyes, four fingers-probability of success? Do the math.) slightly separated and slightly curved so as not to hyperextend.
I can't pierce a watermelon like LPS, but I can still strike pretty dang hard.
The thing is, you don't really need to. Eyestrikes are debilitating. Anyone who says they aren't, has never been on the recieving end of one.
But sure, I guess the nails are a bonus. I feel sorry for your GF...

[TenTigers]

And also put some red pepper powder on your finger nails.
my luck, I'd forget about it, and rub my eye while I'm driving...
One day I'll tell you my Endorphin Rush hot sauce story....
nope, it wasn't my eyes..

[YouKnowWho]

I prefer to lose an arm than to lose an eye.

[TenTigers]

you will have 10 chances (5 fingers x 2 eyes) that one of your fingers will hit on one of your opponent's eye..
oops, didn't see that.
We are of one mind!:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

my luck, I'd forget about it, and rub my eye while I'm driving...
One day I'll tell you my Endorphin Rush hot sauce story....
nope, it wasn't my eyes..

The most powerful hot sauce on this planet is called "insanity". Onetime I had to lay down on the side of the street because I had too much.

[hskwarrior]

i did some county jail time and i was locked up with this filipino dude who had one long thumb nail...hard hard as a real nail. I saw him uppercut this one guy knocking him out but his thumb nail went right through the bottom of his chin and left this big gnarly gash ....a serious one man.

[TenTigers]

The most powerful hot sauce on this planet is called "insanity". Onetime I had to lay down on the side of the street because I had too much.

Dave's Insanity Sauce! I have that at home. I use a drop in my guacamole' and nobody wants it. It's too hot.
More for me.
There is something hotter, though. It's called "Pure Cap," and it's pure oleo capsiacin-500,000 scoviles. It comes in an eyedropper and has a waiver you sign. (probably just hype, but cool nonetheless) It's only good for smearing on yuor enemy's car door handle....

[Frost]

To use 2 fingers to poke on your opponent's eyes will need a lot of accuracy and courage. I don't know you will have the stomach to have 2 eye balls on your finger tips. However, when you move your hand across your opponent's eyes, you will have 10 chances (5 fingers x 2 eyes) that one of your fingers will hit on one of your opponent's eye. A finger across the eye ball may not cause too much damage but it will take your opponent's vision away temporary. That little advantage will be all you need to do what you need to do in street fight.

i never mentioned poking the eyes i said eye strikes which can include anything from flicking past the eyes to poking them, to grabbing the head thrusting the thumb into the eye sockets and ramming your opponents head back into a wall (see us MMA guys do play around with the deadly stuff in the clinch from time to time)

I have a question how do you practise these moves so you know you can pull them off, i mean we have in built automatic defences when something comes towards the eye so what training do you do to make sure you can hit your opponents eyes in this way?

[hskwarrior]

IMHO....eye strikes are only meant to create a moment to either run or launch a barrage of strikes. if you are facing off and try eye strikes then GOOD LUCK. but an eye strike if done fast enough can be the saving grace for a female in danger or a more non confrontational male. The eyes are pretty sensitive and if struck it will impair your ability to see allowing an opening for you to do SOMETHING...run or fight back.

People have been hit in the face and had an eyeball popped out. a thumb in the eye during a strike isn't always a lucky punch. if your hands can touch someones face, you can start jamming fingers in their eyes. you may not dig out an eyeball but the pressure of having it violently pushed in is pretty effective in creating an opening.

but eye strikes unless you stab him in it won't be an effective finishing strike.

On the other hand, not all fights outside the ring are against TRAINED FIGHTERS.

[TenTigers]

i never mentioned poking the eyes i said eye strikes which can include anything from flicking past the eyes to poking them, to grabbing the head thrusting the thumb into the eye sockets and ramming your opponents head back into a wall (see us MMA guys do play around with the deadly stuff in the clinch from time to time)

I have a question how do you practise these moves so you know you can pull them off, i mean we have in built automatic defences when something comes towards the eye so what training do you do to make sure you can hit your opponents eyes in this way?
luckily, the Godz in their infinite wisdom have designed the human body to be disabled.
Eyes are only protected by a paper thin membrane, and are recessed in sockets, which act like a funnel, directing your finger into hem. In case you are slightly off-target, the nose guides you right back.
The throat is 3/4 exposed, the trachea being cartilige, and the vagus nerves, and carotid exposed. The back of the neck has the stem of the brain, base of skull, all good.
Turn your back on a fighter, and you are playing into his hands.
You are not a turtle.
The base of the skull, as mentioned before is prime target area.
The spine is completely exposed.(ever see someone bend over at the beach? (calm down..)you can count the vertebrea. Kidney, spleen, coccyx etc.
The testicles hang down between the legs-God forbid we get to have a skull there, right? And again, the legs guide your foot there if you happen to be slightly off target.

[TenTigers]

if your hands can touch someones face, you can start jamming fingers in their eyes. you may not dig out an eyeball but the pressure of having it violently pushed in is pretty effective in creating an opening.

grabbing the head and ripping at anything and everything is dibilitating.
I don't know if any of you recall "The shredder" dvd that was out awhile back. Pretty interesting. You could swear he studied Hung Kuen.

[hskwarrior]

grabbing the head and ripping at anything and everything is dibilitating.
I don't know if any of you recall "The shredder" dvd that was out awhile back. Pretty interesting. You could swear he studied Hung Kuen.

why it got to be hung kuen? why can't it be Hung Sing Kuen? we're known for our dibilitating fu jows hehehehe

[YouKnowWho]

what training do you do to make sure you can hit your opponents eyes in this way?
It doesn't matter that you can hit your opponent's eyes or not. It's "entering strategy". The moment that your opponent worries about his eyes, you have put him in defense mode and forget to attack you. This way you can close distance safely and do whatever that you want to do. That's your main goal - safe entering.

The easiest way is train this is just to attach a phone book on the wall. You can across your fingers on it. In the beginning, your fingers may only be able to rip 1 or 2 pages. The longer you train, the more pages that your fingers can rip.

In the western world, it's called "bread and butter" move. TCMA call this "door guarding" move. That means if this move doesn't work, it's time to run like hell.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the reply Frost, I get what you are saying, and take it on board, but some of it is simply alternative training, with the same opportunities for success or failure, depending on the effort applied.

I disagree that bare knuckle fighting care is a timidity thing. You can't hide behind your gear, you can hurt your hands, bunch of things.

Padded elbows makes sense, but still, its a big gun for a small party.

And you agree the knee stomp is pretty tricky to train.

We both know that even in MMA circles, there's the easy, middle and Hard Core crews that don't go that extent, that don't go hardcore in training. TCMA is no different.

When you talk about 'theoretically' what a top sport fighter might train, you can easilly speak 'theoretically' about how a TCMA should train, but the fact is, the reality is different.

Any good fighting style or MA will have 'the deadly' of their own design, which can't be trained, even in hardcore sparring, without special accommodations.

MMA rules changed from the initial NHB days, for example.

So, how much different is TCMA really, in training concept. It may not be as efficient or accelerated, but at the same time, its less conventional.

[Frost]

Thanks for the reply Frost, I get what you are saying, and take it on board, but some of it is simply alternative training, with the same opportunities for success or failure, depending on the effort applied.

I disagree that bare knuckle fighting care is a timidity thing. You can't hide behind your gear, you can hurt your hands, bunch of things.

Padded elbows makes sense, but still, its a big gun for a small party.

And you agree the knee stomp is pretty tricky to train.

We both know that even in MMA circles, there's the easy, middle and Hard Core crews that don't go that extent, that don't go hardcore in training. TCMA is no different.

When you talk about 'theoretically' what a top sport fighter might train, you can easilly speak 'theoretically' about how a TCMA should train, but the fact is, the reality is different.

Any good fighting style or MA will have 'the deadly' of their own design, which can't be trained, even in hardcore sparring, without special accommodations.

MMA rules changed from the initial NHB days, for example.

So, how much different is TCMA really, in training concept. It may not be as efficient or accelerated, but at the same time, its less conventional.

for me the gear thing is important i have sparred both ways and I know what allows me to train most realistically and with real power and pressure, and I know from watching clips of both which i feel works the best, and for self defence i would agree both are needed but I know which i'd place most emphesis on, but its
personal preference

In the end we train because we like it and want to, no amount of discussion will change that fact

[t_niehoff]

grabbing the head and ripping at anything and everything is dibilitating.
I don't know if any of you recall "The shredder" dvd that was out awhile back. Pretty interesting. You could swear he studied Hung Kuen.

The "shredder" was pure nonsense.

So, maybe you're right about him studying Hung Kuen.

[t_niehoff]

luckily, the Godz in their infinite wisdom have designed the human body to be disabled.
Eyes are only protected by a paper thin membrane, and are recessed in sockets, which act like a funnel, directing your finger into hem. In case you are slightly off-target, the nose guides you right back.
The throat is 3/4 exposed, the trachea being cartilige, and the vagus nerves, and carotid exposed. The back of the neck has the stem of the brain, base of skull, all good.
Turn your back on a fighter, and you are playing into his hands.
You are not a turtle.
The base of the skull, as mentioned before is prime target area.
The spine is completely exposed.(ever see someone bend over at the beach? (calm down..)you can count the vertebrea. Kidney, spleen, coccyx etc.
The testicles hang down between the legs-God forbid we get to have a skull there, right? And again, the legs guide your foot there if yuo happen to be lightly off target.

I am hoping that this was pure sarcasm.

Because, the Godz in their infinite wisdom sure made people gullible.

[TenTigers]

I am hoping that this was pure sarcasm.

Because, the Godz in their infinite wisdom sure made people gullible.
the expert has spoken...LOL
(this is sarcasm...)

[t_niehoff]

the expert has spoken...LOL
(this is sarcasm...)

I don't make any claims of expertise. But I do know from experience that the human body is very durable, tough, not easily "disabled. Your description of the eye, for instance, is utter nonsense. You might find a little research about the sclera, the TOUGH, white, outer part of the eye useful.

Moreover, I also know what people talk about poking the eyes, kicking the groin, and/or hitting the spine or throat as "disabling strikes" live in fantasy land.

[Yum Cha]

In the end we train because we like it and want to, no amount of discussion will change that fact

I think in the final analysis, anybody with any experience knows that training is better than not training. Lots of mouth boxers miss this subtlety, as we all know. No dehydrated Kung Fu out there for instant reconstitution.

And, if you are not training in a way that personally motivates you , and keeps you firing, you will lose the battle in the long run. IF it is to be a lifetime pursuit, it has to be something that you love, that you can endure and that inspires you.

It changes too...

Gear is good, we've started adding more to our training, but its a rolling experiment right now...

[TenTigers]

Moreover, I also know what people talk about poking the eyes, kicking the groin, and/or hitting the spine or throat as "disabling strikes" live in fantasy land.

ok, I'm not going to go back and forth with you, but I will say this.

I don't claim to be a tough guy, just a guy. But I have been on the giving end as well as the recieving end of the above strikes,(except for giving the eye strike) and at least for me, they were disabling.
Eye strikes are excruciating-been there done that, had the lacerated cornia to prove it.
Base of the skull (back of the neck) strikes will drop you.
Groin kicks can buckle you over, put you to your knees, or on the floor in fetal position.
Sure, sometimes rage and/or adreneline can block out the pain momentarally.
I've dropped people with groin strikes, but I've also "snapped" after a particularly hard groin kick, only to crumble once I calmed down.(nice to know, at least)

I continued the match after the eye strike, but if there wasn't a ref, It would've ended right then and there for me.

I was sparring my teacher,(I was a 20 yr old studying kenpo) who cross-kicked me in the shin, grabbed me by the hair and landed a knifehand to the base of my skull that dropped me face down on the floor. I was barely concious.
I dropped a guy twice my size with a similar strike. (ridgehand)
I don't know what experience you have had with these strikes firsthand.
If you have been on the recieving end and it didn't faze you-more power to you.
I will continue to practice them.

[Yum Cha]

Eyes, throat, spine and throat, not disabling. Do tell...

Right now you sound like a major wanker...

[t_niehoff]

Eyes, throat, spine and throat, not disabling. Do tell...

Right now you sound like a major wanker...

The wankers are those that believe IN disabling strikes.

[TenTigers]

Terrance, out of curiosity, where are the strikes targeted in Biu-Tze?

[Yum Cha]

The wankers are those that believe IN disabling strikes.

I can see you've never fought. Personally, I can disable a guy, dropped more guys than I can count.

Maybe you can use some training?

[YouKnowWho]

hitting the throat as "disabling strikes" live in fantasy land.
You press on your opponent's forehead to force his head to bend backward to expose his throat, you then use your palm edge to strike on his Adam apple. You should be able to drop your opponent.

[hskwarrior]

Terrance, out of curiosity, where are the strikes targeted in Biu-Tze?

that's right he practices wing chun huh?

[t_niehoff]

Terrance, out of curiosity, where are the strikes targeted in Biu-Tze?

The Biu Jee is a form (set). There are no "targets". And the biu jee sao is not a finger strike as is sometimes misrepresented; the contact point is the forearm (not the fingers). If used to strike, a biu jee sao is a forearm strike (to the head, body, whatever).

[t_niehoff]

You press on your opponent's forehead to force his head to bend backward to expose his throat, you then use your palm edge to strike on his Adam apple. You should be able to drop your opponent.

Oh my Lord!

[t_niehoff]

I can see you've never fought. Personally, I can disable a guy, dropped more guys than I can count.

Maybe you can use some training?

ROFLOL! Sure you have. And I have killed at least 39 ninja.

I've done quite a bit of training/sparring with fighters (MMA and MT). I had a detached retina from an accidental finger poke and didn't miss a beat in the sparring (I guess I must have an abnormally think "paper thin membrane covering my eye"!). The only time I was "disabled" by a strike was with a liver shot.

You people live in a fantasy world.

[YouKnowWho]

You people live in a fantasy world.
There is something on this planet and that's called "faith".

[David Jamieson]

The Biu Jee is a form (set). There are no "targets". And the biu jee sao is not a finger strike as is sometimes misrepresented; the contact point is the forearm (not the fingers). If used to strike, a biu jee sao is a forearm strike (to the head, body, whatever).

It also facilitates ridge hand and heel palm strikes when use to cut across the body. But yeah, failing that, the forearm follows.


small point striking with high accuracy is a gong all on it's own and can also be used in tandem with the technique of bil jee either thrusting or raking. with raking being most applicaable and thrusting requiring more accuracy and therefore more time and effort to get consistent with.

[TenTigers]

sparring (I guess I must have an abnormally think "paper thin membrane covering my eye"!). You people live in a fantasy world.
before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, I was referring to the skin of the eyelid, which is...paper thin, and even a strike to a closed eye is very painfull. To add, pressing the thumbs forcefully into a closed eye still causes a tremendous amount of pain. Have someone try it on you.

[TenTigers]

If Biu-Tze is referring to Biu-sao, then why isn't it called Biu-Sao?
I find that curious.
I also find curious that WCK is descended from Fukien Siu-Lum, and Fukien Bak Hok P'ai, which indeed use the Biu-Tze thrust with the fingers, in addition to using the entire arm, as do the Hakka styles. I guess they all have it wrong...
Maybe your WCK is descended from another source?

[Yum Cha]

ROFLOL! Sure you have. And I have killed at least 39 ninja.

I've done quite a bit of training/sparring with fighters (MMA and MT). I had a detached retina from an accidental finger poke and didn't miss a beat in the sparring (I guess I must have an abnormally think "paper thin membrane covering my eye"!). The only time I was "disabled" by a strike was with a liver shot.

You people live in a fantasy world.


Ok, so you were disabled by a liver shot. What is it, are there disabling shots or not. Make up your mind.

I realise you think you are Testicles the Magnificent because you carried on a couple of times when you were hurt, but all you are doing is stating the obvious and demonstrating you don't know its obvious.

Sh1t, by your own admission, you never even knocked anybody down...

[SoCo KungFu]

There is something on this planet and that's called "faith".

Relying on faith in a fight is like hoping to win the lottery to make rent.

Bottom line is some strikes are successful while a great many more aren't. That goes for anything ranging from the standard punches and kicks to "the deadly."

The difference is which of those can you train day in and day out with a high (or at least higher) intensity on partners that are going just as hard back at you?

Yes you can get lucky and land the snake spits venom strike #13 and temporarily blind someone. Yes people (even in ufc) have been taken out with a ridgehand to the side of the throat. But its very uncommon. And no, no one is going to collapse someones trachea or hulksmash their layrnx to dust. The exaggerations are going both ways on this board. The issue comes back to, what can you realistically train and what is a lucky shot in the dark (faith)?

Some of the best strikers in the world only land about 70% of their punches. What do you think those less trained of us can pull off? That's with the standard high % techniques. What then is your likelyhood of that deadly pinpoint vital strike? A lot lot less....

Can they work? Yes. Do they? Not so much. And I've yet to see anyone come up with a way to realistically train those techniques. You can't just claim they are going to work. The best anyone seems to be able to hope for is training your standard stuff and hoping that will give you the physical ability to pull off the other stuff when you think it might work. Problem is how much do you really get to think in a split second reaction of a fight?

At least if you're going to try to poke the eyes do it on a tiger claw or something so you can get a blow in if/when your fingers miss.

[YouKnowWho]

Relying on faith in a fight is like hoping to win the lottery to make rent.
It's very important that we prey before our fight. When God receives our prey, he will block punches and kicks for us.

If you have faith in TCMA, you are "one of us". If you don't, you are not.

[TenTigers]

.

The best anyone seems to be able to hope for is training your standard stuff and hoping that will give you the physical ability to pull off the other stuff when you think it might work.
At least if you're going to try to poke the eyes do it on a tiger claw or something so you can get a blow in if/when your fingers miss.

That is our standard stuff! LOL
Often, we will strike with a fist, and then without witdrawing it, open our hand to shoot the eye strike.
But I see your point.

[taai gihk yahn]

I realise you think you are Testicles the Magnificent
ROFLMFAO!!!
funniest thing I've heard all week...

addendum: I'm using it!

[wenshu]

Ok, so you were disabled by a liver shot.

Last week I took a particularly hard body shot. After training that day I went out and had a beet salad.

The next day the toilet bowl was dyed a dark crimson.

I was scared.

Then I remembered the beets.

[TenTigers]

Last week I took a particularly hard body shot. After training that day I went out and had a beet salad.

The next day the toilet bowl was dyed a dark crimson.

I was scared.

Then I remembered the beets.
my sister did the same thing, only she went to the doctor, had tests, spent dollars.."Oh yeah..I had beets..."

[SoCo KungFu]

I took a knee the kidneys hard enough to have me ****ing blood once in combatives. Though I powered through it. I just kept laughing throughout the session to push through the pain. I think a few thought I might have been going mental. The crappy part though was that the next day I left out for a week of field maneuvers and was sleeping on rocks and random roots and such things. I think waking up every morning having to stretch it out after the night hurt worse than the initial blow.

That's also where I learned that sometimes in a competition fight if you talk to yourself in the clinch or groundfighting, it can throw your opponent off for a second or two.

[taai gihk yahn]

That's also where I learned that sometimes in a competition fight if you talk to yourself in the clinch or groundfighting, it can throw your opponent off for a second or two.

talking to yourself on the subway also gets you a seat with lots of room on either side! :D

[Yum Cha]

talking to yourself on the subway also gets you a seat with lots of room on either side! :D

I never talk to myself, its myself that does all the talking...

[kungfoozer]

1. To my mind, sport fighting is a lot like Chi Sau, or Push hands. It limits your expression of your complete skills in favour of a very engaging sub set that becomes a game. To focus on any one element of your training for too long takes away from other skills, and becomes the skill itself. This is it for lots of guys, and fair enough, no problems with that. I prefer that kind of person to the split personality that claims TCMA but fights without TCMA.


I don't agree with this comparison. Unlike chi sau and push hands sports fighting has an end goal. When you spar someone is going to get more hurt than the other. When you wrestle someone is going to be thrown down. With drills like chi sau and push hands there is no end goal. Endless rolling with light striking or pushing is not an end goal. If two people were going to fight, one only sparred and the other only did chi sau, I would put my money on the person who only sparred.

This is like when people compare chi sau/push hands to bjj rolling. This is a perfect example of a false comparison. Apples and Oranges. When two people are rolling in bjj they are both looking to end the interaction with a submission. Chi sau and push hands are just compliant drills that focus on a small aspect of skill development.

[t_niehoff]

If Biu-Tze is referring to Biu-sao, then why isn't it called Biu-Sao?
I find that curious.


Biu jee is a form/set. Biu jee sao is an action/movement.



I also find curious that WCK is descended from Fukien Siu-Lum, and Fukien Bak Hok P'ai, which indeed use the Biu-Tze thrust with the fingers, in addition to using the entire arm, as do the Hakka styles. I guess they all have it wrong...
Maybe your WCK is descended from another source?

I find it curious that people make up silly histories of WCK. WCK descends from the Red Boats. That's all we know.

If you think that finger strikes work, go out and spar at 100% and try hitting your opponents with your fingers. After you get your fingers broken, then rethink you theory.

[t_niehoff]

Ok, so you were disabled by a liver shot. What is it, are there disabling shots or not. Make up your mind.

I realise you think you are Testicles the Magnificent because you carried on a couple of times when you were hurt, but all you are doing is stating the obvious and demonstrating you don't know its obvious.

Sh1t, by your own admission, you never even knocked anybody down...

My point is that there seems to be a "disabling strikes" mentality that is part of TMAs and is mostly nonsense. Point striking, dim mak, striking the groin, eyes, throat, spine, is all theoretical crap.

What works is what you see in sport fighting. Are people "disabled" by strikes in sport fighting? Yup. You see KOs, liver shots, etc. And people are able to realistically practice them.

[TenTigers]

TtM:"Biu jee is a form/set. Biu jee sao is an action/movement."

yeah, well duh...Biu jee is a term, it means thrusting fingers. It is an action/movement..and it is the name of the form. Why do you think they named it Biu JEE and not Biu SAO? "Oh that's just the name of the form." You're kidding, right?
Do you ever actually read your own posts?



TtM: "If you think that finger strikes work, go out and spar at 100% and try hitting your opponents with your fingers. After you get your fingers broken, then rethink you theory."

the first thing a beginner learns is to throw the biu jee with fingers slightly bent, so if they hit an unyielding surface, they will collapse and not break.
You must have missed that class...

[TenTigers]

My point is that there seems to be a "disabling strikes" mentality that is part of TMAs and is mostly nonsense. Point striking, dim mak, striking the groin, eyes, throat, spine, is all theoretical crap.

What works is what you see in sport fighting. Are people "disabled" by strikes in sport fighting? Yup. You see KOs, liver shots, etc. And people are able to realistically practice them.
Yes and No...I don't think anyone here is talking about point striking and dim mak.
But most of us have had experience with throat, groin,eyes and spine shots, on both ends-giving and recieving. (if you spar/fight long enough, you will eventually get nailed) I don't think anyone who has, agrees with your point of it being theoretical.
Let me also add, that "hitting someone on the button," and a liver shot, as well as eye, throat,groin and spine ARE point striking and dim-mak by definition.

[pateticorecords]

Yes and No...I don't think anyone here is talking about point striking and dim mak.
But most of us have had experience with throat, groin,eyes and spine shots, on both ends-giving and recieving. (if you spar/fight long enough, you will eventually get nailed) I don't think anyone who has, agrees with your point of it being theoretical.
Let me also add, that "hitting someone on the button," and a liver shot, as well as eye, throat,groin and spine ARE point striking and dim-mak by definition.

I am with you on this one... unless you have performed or been on the receiving end of pressure point strikes you wouldn't understand it.

Most people talk about them, say they train in them, but they can't accurately strike the points in a "live" situation. Now, if you study the point clusters, the ones with most exposure, and learn how to strike them while sparring it becomes more of what it is intended to be.

Have you ever gotten a charlie horse when struck to the side of the thigh? Have you been kicked in the sciatic nerve by a good Muy Thai fighter?
Have you been sticken in the brachial plexus and felt your world slipping away? Has any one jammed a finger into your vagus synapse (on the carotid artery) ?

Those are all examples of pressure points in action... ;)

[David Jamieson]

I think a lot of people know about the points on the body to activate to get the pain compliance happening.

driving the elbows into the inguinal crease to slip guard for instance, or driving your unshaven chin into a guys eye socket or your thumb up an armpit, etc etc. All this is done in wrestling, never mind in striking.

so people probably get tripped on the broad array of what dim mak is and then comes the sea of info and dis-info all at the same time.

when that happens, a lot of people just give it a wash and do what they were gonna do. One of the big barriers between new modern ma-ists and old school tma-ists is the difference in terminology relating to the same attack or defense.

there is a lot of cryptic poetry still associated with traditional martial arst descriptions of techniques or odd names for techniques.

meh, what are you gonna do? If it works, it works. Nothing in martial techniques works all the time every time.

[pateticorecords]

I think a lot of people know about the points on the body to activate to get the pain compliance happening.

driving the elbows into the inguinal crease to slip guard for instance, or driving your unshaven chin into a guys eye socket or your thumb up an armpit, etc etc. All this is done in wrestling, never mind in striking.

so people probably get tripped on the broad array of what dim mak is and then comes the sea of info and dis-info all at the same time.

when that happens, a lot of people just give it a wash and do what they were gonna do. One of the big barriers between new modern ma-ists and old school tma-ists is the difference in terminology relating to the same attack or defense.

there is a lot of cryptic poetry still associated with traditional martial arst descriptions of techniques or odd names for techniques.

meh, what are you gonna do? If it works, it works. Nothing in martial techniques works all the time every time.

I have been teaching my kids pressure points, sequences, chi na, etc for a while and now that my 17 year old son is on the high school wrestling team he has been able to implement it into his ground work and has been using it to debilitate his opponents...

funny thing is that I have 2 teenagers and when they are bugging each other the complaints that we hear are " mom/dad, adrian is hitting my pressure points again" lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing though, you will notice that as system get more and more practical ( they train or fight full contact more), the number of points gets less and less till you only have the ones that work the most consistently across the board.
To me dim mak is a "sniper analogy" for obvious reasons :)
"Aim big miss big, Aim small, miss small".

[pateticorecords]

One thing though, you will notice that as system get more and more practical ( they train or fight full contact more), the number of points gets less and less till you only have the ones that work the most consistently across the board.
To me dim mak is a "sniper analogy" for obvious reasons :)
"Aim big miss big, Aim small, miss small".

I believe that you should progress with the times and adapt it to what is currently happening... not omit it.
I use it in sparring both on the ground as well as on my feet, if you know what to do and how to execute on it... IT works:)

Oh, and I am not talking about the "death touch" or the "no touch knock out"... I am referring to the usage of the pressure points to inflict pain or incapacitate the motor skills of your opponent based on the cycle of destruction

[TenTigers]

I believe that you should progress with the times and adapt it to what is currently happening... not omit it.
I use it in sparring both on the ground as well as on my feet, if you know what to do and how to execute on it... IT works:)

Oh, and I am not talking about the "death touch" or the "no touch knock out"... I am referring to the usage of the pressure points to inflict pain or incapacitate the motor skills of your opponent based on the cycle of destruction
yes and no. I agree with your point as far as adapt rather than omit, lodr knows, I am always saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," But as far as striking points, I go by the K.I.S.S. method. I go for points and clusters rather than set-ups in accordance with the yin/yang, five elements theory. (not that I don't study and practice them, but I am talking about expediant means/high percentage)
I was really impressed with an article I read years ago by Isshinryu instructor, Ed Brown, who also BTW was trained in IP. He says,"I don't want to be concerned with trying to hit a point the size of a dime on someone in a fight. I want to be able to hit him hard enough anywhere on the body and drop him."(the guy punches TRAINS fer chrissakes!)
I like that .

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe that you should progress with the times and adapt it to what is currently happening... not omit it.
I use it in sparring both on the ground as well as on my feet, if you know what to do and how to execute on it... IT works:)

Oh, and I am not talking about the "death touch" or the "no touch knock out"... I am referring to the usage of the pressure points to inflict pain or incapacitate the motor skills of your opponent based on the cycle of destruction

Pain compliancy has its place, just not in the world of full on fighting.
My point was that as many MA evolved from the realm of dealing with "untrained people" into the realm of dealing with "trained fighters" the stuff that didn't wok consistently was left behind for the stuff that did.
Why work on something that works 10% of the time when you can work on what works 90 or 90%?

[pateticorecords]

yes and no. I agree with your point as far as adapt rather than omit, lodr knows, I am always saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," But as far as striking points, I go by the K.I.S.S. method. I go for points and clusters rather than set-ups in accordance with the yin/yang, five elements theory. (not that I don't study and practice them, but I am talking about expediant means/high percentage)
I was really impressed with an article I read years ago by Isshinryu instructor, Ed Brown, who also BTW was trained in IP. He says,"I don't want to be concerned with trying to hit a point the size of a dime on someone in a fight. I want to be able to hit him hard enough anywhere on the body and drop him."(the guy punches TRAINS fer chrissakes!)
I like that .

I agree. My point is actually that there are "point clusters" that can be struck regardless of the time of day, yin/yang cycle, etc. that are effective. The concept is to have it available in your arsenal and to be able to use it when necessary.

[pateticorecords]

Pain compliancy has its place, just not in the world of full on fighting.
My point was that as many MA evolved from the realm of dealing with "untrained people" into the realm of dealing with "trained fighters" the stuff that didn't wok consistently was left behind for the stuff that did.
Why work on something that works 10% of the time when you can work on what works 90 or 90%?

I am in agreement with you as well... again nothing completely works 100% of the time, we have to adjust to the variables and find new ways to improve upon it.

[goju]

ROFLMFAO!!!
funniest thing I've heard all week...

addendum: I'm using it!

Lol **** i was gonna take it!:D:mad:

[goju]

finger strikes work fine with out somone breaking their finger

you see it often in mma sometimes not so accidentaly like chucks thumb rake he did on tito

[Eric Olson]

I have been teaching my kids pressure points, sequences, chi na, etc for a while and now that my 17 year old son is on the high school wrestling team he has been able to implement it into his ground work and has been using it to debilitate his opponents...

I used to do the same thing with my friend who was a wrestler through junior high and highschool.

There's a pressure point right behind the jaw and in front of the ear. If you dig in on that pressure point it's hard to for the opponent to "resist" it.

(This is where Knifefighter would have chimed in...RIP.....:p)

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to do the same thing with my friend who was a wrestler through junior high and highschool.

There's a pressure point right behind the jaw and in front of the ear. If you dig in on that pressure point it's hard to for the opponent to "resist" it.

(This is where Knifefighter would have chimed in...RIP.....:p)

EO

Just remember to immobilise the head or it is very easy to resist and counter.
I wouldn't recommend you doing that in an all out fight, but just fooling around is fine.
FYI, that little point is used by some with the point of their elbow when they do a "forearm press to the face" in MMA.

[lkfmdc]

"Dim Mak" is such a over used and mis understood thing, geezzz, it sort of drives me crazy....

I was 13 and doing shotokan, I got hit with a reverse punch to the solar plexis, my diaphrahm (sp?) spasmed and I felt like I couldn't breath, scary crap... noting "chi" related or "dim mak" about it, and the kid that did it probably had no idea he was doing it

And in the 30 plus years since it has NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN

We asked CTS about "dim mak" once, he said "kick the guy in the nuts / poke him in the eye" - nothing mysterious about it

You hit someone hard in the liver, they are going down, period

Same with the kidneys

The problem is, you have to hit the spot, hit it HARD and do it while the other guy is fighting as well

[TenTigers]

that's the thing. You use a Chinese term , and suddenly it's a "secret technique."

But..somtimes, ya gotta.
C'mon, wouldn't you feel ridiculous telling someone to "give him a noogie," rather than a Pheonix-eye strike?
nevermind the deadly purple nurple...

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Dim Mak" is such a over used and mis understood thing, geezzz, it sort of drives me crazy....

I was 13 and doing shotokan, I got hit with a reverse punch to the solar plexis, my diaphrahm (sp?) spasmed and I felt like I couldn't breath, scary crap... noting "chi" related or "dim mak" about it, and the kid that did it probably had no idea he was doing it

And in the 30 plus years since it has NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN

We asked CTS about "dim mak" once, he said "kick the guy in the nuts / poke him in the eye" - nothing mysterious about it

You hit someone hard in the liver, they are going down, period

Same with the kidneys

The problem is, you have to hit the spot, hit it HARD and do it while the other guy is fighting as well

Dude, you just got realize that telling someone to hit the liver of jaw does NOT sound as cool as saying to hit ST5 or LIV13.

[lkfmdc]

Dude, you just got realize that telling someone to hit the liver of jaw does NOT sound as cool as saying to hit ST5 or LIV13.

shouldn't you be posting half nekkid pics ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

shouldn't you be posting half nekkid pics ?

I try my best not to derail threads in my own forum, LOL !

[Frost]

"Dim Mak" is such a over used and mis understood thing, geezzz, it sort of drives me crazy....

I was 13 and doing shotokan, I got hit with a reverse punch to the solar plexis, my diaphrahm (sp?) spasmed and I felt like I couldn't breath, scary crap... noting "chi" related or "dim mak" about it, and the kid that did it probably had no idea he was doing it

And in the 30 plus years since it has NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN

We asked CTS about "dim mak" once, he said "kick the guy in the nuts / poke him in the eye" - nothing mysterious about it

You hit someone hard in the liver, they are going down, period

Same with the kidneys

The problem is, you have to hit the spot, hit it HARD and do it while the other guy is fighting as well

go back and play with your sports guys and stop making sense please

[TenTigers]

well, ya gotta admit, it's refreshing to be able to discuss these topics without someone going apesh1t, just because you mentioned something like dim-mak. We can have logical discussions without it getting siderailed, and actually come to mutual agreements, and greater understanding.
s'bout freakin time

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, ya gotta admit, it's refreshing to be able to discuss these topics without someone going apesh1t, just because you mentioned something like dim-mak. We can have logical discussions without it getting siderailed, and actually come to mutual agreements, and greater understanding.
s'bout freakin time

We tend to be more civil and high class here in the southern forums.
Anyone for a spot of tea?

[YouKnowWho]

The problem is, you have to hit the spot, hit it HARD and do it while the other guy is fighting as well

There are only few such applications left in modern day. One application is to use your knee to strike 45 degree up at your opponent's leading inner upper leg. When he steps that leg back and have all the weight on his back leg, you then attack his back leg.

[goju]

Just remember to immobilise the head or it is very easy to resist and counter.
I wouldn't recommend you doing that in an all out fight, but just fooling around is fine.
FYI, that little point is used by some with the point of their elbow when they do a "forearm press to the face" in MMA.

one of the martial art rags out on the stands has fedor on it and he reccomends using that point where youre on someones back so you can get them to lift their head for RNC

[Yum Cha]

one of the martial art rags out on the stands has fedor on it and he reccomends using that point where youre on someones back so you can get them to lift their head for RNC

TH3 D3ADLY!


Sanjuro,

Tea is like a girlfriend, best in her first year of after picking.
Wiskey is like a wife, best mature and rich.

:D

[Yum Cha]

Ummmm, yea, no.....

If we can stay out of the whole 'dim mak' stuff' its not all about power, not TOTALLY.

Plexus, liver, groin, ear, side of neck, front of neck, chin, jaw, bridge of nose, big joints, little joints, stuff like that.

Side of neck doesn't take as much as plexus or liver. Finger break attack isn't all that demanding... Add a little Fung Ahn magic to multiply your force....

And, there are the setups. A flick to the groin will make you react, its what the reaction sets up that is the problem, not the flick.

Same with a flick to the eyes, ear box, 'face wash', etc....

If we substitute 'hitting weak points' with 'hitting targets more accurately and to effect, its probably more approachable for some.

[lkfmdc]

well, ya gotta admit, it's refreshing to be able to discuss these topics without someone going apesh1t, just because you mentioned something like dim-mak. We can have logical discussions without it getting siderailed, and actually come to mutual agreements, and greater understanding.
s'bout freakin time

I actually approved of the latest wave of banning, in fact, I think it was long overdue

For the most part, most of the posters here discuss stuff , you know, sort of like a discussion forum... who would have thought

[YouKnowWho]

I actually approved of the latest wave of banning, in fact, I think it was long overdue

For the most part, most of the posters here discuss stuff , you know, sort of like a discussion forum... who would have thought

It's a big difference now. Finally we can actually "discuss" without having to worry about

"no video -> never happened".

[lkfmdc]

It's a big difference now. We can actually "discuss" without having to worry about

"no video -> never happened".

Let's hope we aren't told we don't know the "real stuff" and things will be just fine....

[sanjuro_ronin]

TH3 D3ADLY!


Sanjuro,

Tea is like a girlfriend, best in her first year of after picking.
Wiskey is like a wife, best mature and rich.

:D

I'm a 12 year old scotch man myself or a nice VSOP Cognac ( I am too cheap for the Xo).

[PalmStriker]

We tend to be more civil and high class here in the southern forums.
Anyone for a spot of tea?

"Got Chai?" :D

[Yum Cha]

I'm a 12 year old scotch man myself or a nice VSOP Cognac ( I am too cheap for the Xo).

I went to this mega liquor store in Houston, saw a $10,000 bottle of Cognac...

Made the $500 stuff look positively cheap by comparison.....