Constructing a purely TCMA MMA? Can it be done?

[Eric Olson]

What arts would you incorporate and why?

EO

[bawang]

hung gar gar for its deadly powerful strikes and wing chun for its stick hands to neutralize groundfighting

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Sanda is pretty much a compilation of Kung Fu styles integrated with western boxing, Shuai Jiao and wrestling throws. Add submission and groundwork and it is already there.

I don't see why people get so wrapped up in something having to be Chinese by definition. Hell, most of the chinese don't care and train other systems for submisson and groundwork, at least the ones competing in MMA do.

[bawang]

its due to ego being crushed. the mma fighter symbolizes the high school bully. kung fu is the white feminine nerds way to escape his lifes troubles and create an alternate reality. MMA confronts this fantasy and causes mental distress.

when UFC came out, the walls of reality came crashing down on many kung fu people, who rely on kung fu to give them meaning in life and fill a cultural void.

[MasterKiller]

You can't because TCMA has no groundfighting.

MMA = multiple ranges, and without a competent ground game, you do not have "MMA."

[Yum Cha]

MMA -

Modern Pentathalon

[Dragonzbane76]

Have to agree with MK. you can take a lot of the differing styles and put them together or what not, but it does not have a complete ground/clinch oriented plan.

You can say well it has chin na... chin na is not a ground oriented system or a system in itself.

[bawang]

it doesnt matter if kung fu has ground fighting or not, if u cant even sprawl dont worry about groundfighting yet.

the problem is kung fu has changed focus, from brutality to technicality, from contest of manliness and toughness to contest of effectiveness. chinese boxing never claimed to be the ultimate fighting style. like most traditional folk boxing and wrestling in the world its ritual combat, because its meaningless to obsess about effectiveness of unarmed fighting. effective unarmed fighting is a oxymoron.

[TenTigers]

nope. There are schools of SC that do have groundfighting.
TCMA was not created in a bubble. How can arts develop into such sophisticated systems and not have grappling?
Just as Judo has ne-waza.
Just because you haven't been exposed to it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

[bawang]

nope. There are schools of SC that do have groundfighting.

it came from judo. shuai jiao has same rules as buku, touch ground and lose.
beijing shuai jiao IS buku. the only effective chinese martial art is non chinese. lol

chinese are proud of sanda when all the sanda kings are mongolian lol

[Violent Designs]

http://images1.memegenerator.net/Rape-Ewok/ImageMacro/2913655/I-RAPED-PEDOBEAR.jpg

[Eric Olson]

Stop trying to derail my thread !

[MasterKiller]

nope. There are schools of SC that do have groundfighting. Show me 3 pieces of evidence, kind sir.


TCMA was not created in a bubble. How can arts develop into such sophisticated systems and not have grappling?.

Where does the groundfighting in your school come from?

[Violent Designs]

Stop trying to derail my thread !

http://www.sirbikesalot.com/DemotivationalPosters/Hypocrisy.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

nope. There are schools of SC that do have groundfighting.
TCMA was not created in a bubble. How can arts develop into such sophisticated systems and not have grappling?
Just as Judo has ne-waza.
Just because you haven't been exposed to it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Again I ask what makes the difference if something is considered exclusively Chinese or not. Maybe there are SC schools with submissions and groundfighting, maybe they cross trained in BJJ or Judo or whatever other submission based style and picked them up.

The thing is MMA as a sport was developed to take the best from systems and make someone a complete fighter in all three aspects of fighting, stand up, clinch, and groundwork. I don't get why Kung Fu folks make such a big deal out of something being excluseively Chinese or not. If it makes your fighting system (Kung Fu) better, you should use it no matter where it came from or who developed it.

[TenTigers]

@ MK-my stuff all comes out of the Eight Drunken Immortals forms as taught to me by..
Nah, I was just joking. I draw from as many sources as possible, and certainly not limited to Chinese styles. (tools is tools) I'm not saying that BJJ hasn't taken the ball and run with it and developed, refined and advanced it. Always Give credit where credit is due.
I was simply saying that SC does indeed have ground fighting.
I have met other SC people who say yes, others who say no-some even from the same line, so go figure. I know one of my teachers and friend, Chao-Sifu practiced Monguo Seut-Gohk in his youth in Guangzhao, (among other systems)and when queried about the ground fighting, he said,"Sure!" Took his friend down and armbarred him. Chao-Sifu just celebrated his 75th Birthday.

[Hardwork108]

nope. There are schools of SC that do have groundfighting.
TCMA was not created in a bubble. How can arts develop into such sophisticated systems and not have grappling?
Just as Judo has ne-waza.
Just because you haven't been exposed to it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

:eek:

You are beginning to sound like me, and I like it.:D


It seems that you have finally realized how kung fu-clueless most of the (MMA) posters in this forum really are....

[Hardwork108]

Yes, the TCMAs do address the ground scenario, wether they do so by rolling around in the ground for an hour and half, is another story.

People have to remember, and I have stated this before, that wrestling arts developed in China even before the kung fu styles. It is ignorant to assume that the thousands of kung fu styles that evolved during hundreds of years, somehow "forgot" to address the ground scenario, just because someone living in some Shmucksville, has not seen it.

Like Ten Tigers said, and I have stated it before, just because you have not been exposed to it, it does not mean that it does not exist. So, it is time for some of the none-TCMA posters, and their pseudo kung fu colleagues, to get off their high (and uniformed) horses, and do some serious research into the TCMAs, by ASKING questions and not making ignorant statements.

Please remeber that this is a TCMA forum, and this is where people like you are supposed to come and learn about the various methodologies and aspects. This forum is NOT for you to come and "teach" us modern MMA. Thank you!

[goju]

Here we go again:eek:

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif

[Hardwork108]

What arts would you incorporate and why?

EO

Sorry for my previous rant, but I will attempt to contribute to the topic at hand.

Most kung fu styles will represent MMA, in a shall we say, "microcosm". So, in most styles you will see that all ranges of combat will be addressed. However, individual styles will emphasis different ranges and aspects.

For example, Wing Chun will emphasis the short range, but not exclusively. Correctly trained WC will cover all ranges. This is also refelected in Wing Chun's weapons. The butterfly knives for short range; the pole, long range, and in some lineages, the darts, which I guess would represent the very long range.

So, once we acknowledge that proper kung fu training is very hard to come by, then we realize that many people search the MMA or cross training solutions, because the kung fu they had been exposed to, was lacking in fundamental aspects.

Having said that, one must admit that if one completes a given style of kung fu, then he can certainly improve on it by training other relevant styles of TCMAs. So, if your core style emphasises the short range, then you might want to train another kung fu style that focuses more on the long range. Also, if your core style emphasises the external approach, you might want to train another style that emphasises the Internals, and so on.

If you are talking sports fighting, then one can study any major kung fu style, under GENUINE instruction, but with a sports emphasis - conditioning, etc.- and perhaps add some Shui Chao, if necessary.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Yes, the TCMAs do address the ground scenario, wether they do so by rolling around in the ground for an hour and half, is another story.

People have to remember, and I have stated this before, that wrestling arts developed in China even before the kung fu styles. It is ignorant to assume that the thousands of kung fu styles that evolved during hundreds of years, somehow "forgot" to address the ground scenario, just because someone living in some Shmucksville, has not seen it.

Like Ten Tigers said, and I have stated it before, just because you have not been exposed to it, it does not mean that it does not exist. So, it is time for some of the none-TCMA posters, and their pseudo kung fu colleagues, to get off their high (and uniformed) horses, and do some serious research into the TCMAs, by ASKING questions and not making ignorant statements.

Please remeber that this is a TCMA forum, and this is where people like you are supposed to come and learn about the various methodologies and aspects. This forum is NOT for you to come and "teach" us modern MMA. Thank you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvotwO0Kwo

[Hardwork108]

Here we go again:eek:

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif

:eek:

Hey, I made a fair statement!

It is tiresome to see one kung fu clueless MMA-ist, after another, post generalized statements about thousands of TCMA styles, and hundreds, if not thousands of years of evolution, based solely on what they HAVE NOT seen inbetween their BJJ and kickboxing classes!!!

[MasterKiller]

Yes, the TCMAs do address the ground scenario, wether they do so by rolling around in the ground for an hour and half, is another story.

People have to remember, and I have stated this before, that wrestling arts developed in China even before the kung fu styles. It is ignorant to assume that the thousands of kung fu styles that evolved during hundreds of years, somehow "forgot" to address the ground scenario, just because someone living in some Shmucksville, has not seen it.

Like Ten Tigers said, and I have stated it before, just because you have not been exposed to it, it does not mean that it does not exist. So, it is time for some of the none-TCMA posters, and their pseudo kung fu colleagues, to get off their high (and uniformed) horses, and do some serious research into the TCMAs, by ASKING questions and not making ignorant statements.

Please remeber that this is a TCMA forum, and this is where people like you are supposed to come and learn about the various methodologies and aspects. This forum is NOT for you to come and "teach" us modern MMA. Thank you!

Yet, the Chinese styles you have experience in have no ground fighting.

"Ground fighting" is not as simple as armbarring someone, or kicking a standing opponent from the ground, or even locking someone and taking them down.

The main point of ground fighting is holding positions and training the transitions into those positions so that you can control your opponent and/or prevent him from controlling you.

If it exists out there in the Chinese ether somewhere, but it such a close-guarded secret that no one knows about it except in-door disciples, it might as well not even exist because it does nothing to further the development of Chinese arts as a whole.

I mean, if it's so obvious to someone like you, show me 3 examples of pure Chinese ground fighting.

[goju]

:eek:

Hey, I made a fair statement!

It is tiresome to see one kung fu clueless MMA-ist, after another, post generalized statements about thousands of TCMA styles, and hundreds, if not thousands of years of evolution, based solely on what they HAVE NOT seen inbetween their BJJ and kickboxing classes!!!

Wasn't directed soley at you .It was at all the people who will inevitably turn this into a dozen page arguement.:D

[pateticorecords]

It is very possible... especially if you integrate into your training some Shuai Jiao, San Shao, Chi Na, Chi Na Fa; in addition to cross training in Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Shaolin, Bak Mei, Eagle Claw, White Crane, TigerCrane to improve stricking, closing the gap, and power generation:)

[Lucas]

i think a big question is, if its possible to do at a truly competative level, then out of all the hundreds of thousands of cma practitioners there are no soley cma pro fighters in the ranks? so are cma guys just weak or has no one actually done this? and if thats the case, how do you know it would work?

i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says 'i am 100% cma'

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.

[MasterKiller]

i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says 'i am 100% cma'

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.

I think Sean Obasi claims he's 100% Wing Chun.

[Lucas]

ill youtube him when i get home. hows his ground game?

[MasterKiller]

ill youtube him when i get home. hows his ground game?

Nevermind. He cross-trains, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ONFwANRog

[Lucas]

its kind of a supply and demand issue imo, the demand is a strong ground game to be competative at the pro level, the supply, generally, is bjj in mass.

anyone know if satoshi ishii has fought pro yet>?

[sanjuro_ronin]

No TCMA deals with ground work to the extend of Judo, much less BJJ or submission grappling.
It's just not there to the degree it is in those sports.

[Lucas]

oh i forgot im stupid satoshi has already fought i believe.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52352&highlight=satoshi+ishii

[David Jamieson]

mma as a professional competitive sport has zero single art practitioners.

there is no single art that covers all the ranges anywhere.

jj, bjj etc do not cover stand up

karate, cma, boxing, MT do not cover ground

clinch is covered differently and takes on a different tack in mma than in boxing or even in kickboxing, it has to take into consideration that possibility that the next thing could be a kick and knee or a takedown or a throw.

competitive mma will eventually develop into a style where by all those ranges will be trained as a whole package instead of guys going from one club to another to get rounded out for it.

integrated mma training methodology is the next step and i think cma has a lot to offer it.

[pateticorecords]

hmmm... Bruce lee;-)

Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza


I like this video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrYhwXp148&search=UFC%20


old kung fu book that shows groundwork and takedowns:
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=264&sid=e0588a5f062354f37ec3dbef34f3bea9

[Lucas]

I know cung le is not full cma. his cma training is in viet kungfu from his younger years, but he is most certainly mma from various arts.

[goju]

cung also knows tkd as well

[MasterKiller]

hmmm... Bruce lee;-) The most notable CMA guy to emphasize the need to crosstrain? :rolleyes:


Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza You do realize Delucia got beaten silly by Royce Gracie and immediately started crosstraining, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

And Cung Le and Luke Cummo certainly crosstrain.

[goju]

lucia cross trains as well doesnt he? i believe he knows aikido too and of course can conjure ghosts to attack you through a voodp ritual like he did with bas rutten lol

[Hardwork108]

Yet, the Chinese styles you have experience in have no ground fighting.
First you guys make assumptions about thousands of TCMA, and their thousand year old histories, while not having completed a genuine curriculum of even one of those styles. Now, you are assuming what I have experience in does have or does not have! LOL.

Let me tell you this, even if what you say were the case, then I would not be pompous enough to say, "I haven't seen it, therefore it does not exist".....

As the case is, the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun lineage that I studied, introduced the ground fighting in the latter stages of Chun Kiu, when the student had already gained potent skill in stand up striking and Chin-na.

There is a Tiger style of kung fu that has ground fighting. There is at least on lineage of Northern Praying Mantis, that teaches ground fighting as a part of their traditional curriculum. I believe that their kwoon is in Singapoore, if memory serves me correctly.


"Ground fighting" is not as simple as armbarring someone, or kicking a standing opponent from the ground, or even locking someone and taking them down.
I did not say that it was.


The main point of ground fighting is holding positions and training the transitions into those positions so that you can control your opponent and/or prevent him from controlling you.

Hey, couldn't the more or less same thing be said about stand up fighting?


If it exists out there in the Chinese ether somewhere, but it such a close-guarded secret that no one knows about it except in-door disciples, it might as well not even exist because it does nothing to further the development of Chinese arts as a whole.
Again, no one said anything about "indoor disciples". The fact is that over 95% of TCMA schools teach utter cr@p, and people like you base your comments on experiences gained in such schools. I am merely saying that you lot are wrong!


I mean, if it's so obvious to someone like you, show me 3 examples of pure Chinese ground fighting.

I am spending precious time on posting to you guys, because I agree that it is not so obvious, even if logically, it would not be too difficult to come to the conclusion that fightings systems developed in a country with thousands of years of history, and violence, where wrestling arts had existed before and parallel with kung fu, then some of these arts would have ground fighting,while others would address the ground fighting scenario in their own manner.

Anyway, here are a few to give you an indication:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20SLgNb9Ds

Shaolin Grappling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJR5Jb1oQPY&feature=related

This one claims to be tai chi, but I am not very familiar with tai chi, so you decide for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYmiGt7po&feature=related


Finally, even though I have given you some Youtube examples, Youtube is not beginning and the end of kung fu. There are many kung fu methodologies that are not even referred to in books and other written literature, even if you are lucky enough to read ones written by actual masters. That is the way things are in the TCMA world, and IMHO, quite rightly so.

The previous paragraph was for your information, but when it comes to TCMA's take on ground fighting, then there is nothing secret about it. The problem is that there a very extremely few schools that teach a given kung fu style the way it was designed to be taught and covering all of its levels. Once you accept this fact then you will be "enlightened".....

[Hardwork108]

It is very possible... especially if you integrate into your training some Shuai Jiao, San Shao, Chi Na, Chi Na Fa; in addition to cross training in Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Shaolin, Bak Mei, Eagle Claw, White Crane, TigerCrane to improve stricking, closing the gap, and power generation:)

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.

[Hardwork108]

i think a big question is, if its possible to do at a truly competative level, then out of all the hundreds of thousands of cma practitioners there are no soley cma pro fighters in the ranks? so are cma guys just weak or has no one actually done this? and if thats the case, how do you know it would work?

i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says 'i am 100% cma'

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.

Aren't the Sand Da people in China, from CMA backgrounds?

[David Jamieson]

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.

kung fu schools, "thousands" as they may be do not address grappling, wrestling, ground positions etc.

It doesn't matter if some obscure dude in a littel village in shandung uses wrestling in his village tiger style. That is completely irelevant to the main question of groundwork/grappling/wrestling and how to deal with someone while in a guard, in a mount, with or under someone else side control etc etc.

those "thousands" of cma styles do not address that in a big way and it is necessary.

shuai chiao is the closest you come to any sort of standing grapples that lead to throws and there is no groundwork for the most part.

chin na address grabs, seizes and holds but doesn't address someone in the mount smashing their elbows down on your face.

to be fair, Muay Thai doesn't address ground work and neither does Karate in any form, boxing, kickboxing, tae kwon do, bagua, taichi, xingyi, etc. Kung Fu isn't the only one that doesn't deal with wrestling, grappling it has to be added in or onto a style in order to address it.

The very fact that a person would rail against this simple truth is indicative that perhaps they don't know what they are talking about and maybe should give consideration to those who do recognize the leaks.

Yes, Kung Fu is a lot of things, but it is not everything and doesn't adequately address all forms of combat in and of itself no matter how many iterations there are of it.

[Hardwork108]

there is no single art that covers all the ranges anywhere.
I disagree.

There many arts that cover ALL of the ranges, the question would be, how deeply do they cover those ranges, or what their emphasized range is!


jj,
Wrong. Japanese JJ has striking and stand up fighting.


bjj etc do not cover stand up
I know, that a lot of time they start standing up. Perhaps, one of this forum's thousands of BJJ practitioners can enlighten us more on the truth of your statement?


karate, cma,
Wrong again.

Traditional Kyokushikai used to have some ground work. Also, there is at least on lineage of Okinawan Goju Ryu, that trains ground fighting.



boxing, MT do not cover ground
You are probably right about boxing, and sport MT does not have ground fighting, but the traditional one, I am not too sure about. Perhaps, one of this forums's thousands of MT practioners can enlighten us?



competitive mma will eventually develop into a style where by all those ranges will be trained as a whole package instead of guys going from one club to another to get rounded out for it.
I was under the impression that some clubs already did that, but I could be wrong...

[mooyingmantis]

You can't because TCMA has no groundfighting.

MMA = multiple ranges, and without a competent ground game, you do not have "MMA."

And you base your opinion on?
Monkey Boxing has groundwork. So that is at least one TCMA that has it.

[David Jamieson]

I disagree.

There many arts that cover ALL of the ranges, the question would be, how deeply do they cover those ranges, or what their emphasized range is!

what's your experience been? Mine has been somewhat robust and "all" ranges are not addressed, certainly not any wrestling at all. throws? sure, grabs and takedowns? sure. Ground work? ZERO.



Wrong. Japanese JJ has striking and stand up fighting. JJ is not exactly what I would call pure, although some of it is and does have stand up, JJ in GJJ or in context to sportive doesn't employ the old ways and leans more towards trhe gracie and brazilian models fo what jj is. TO find genuine traditional japanese ju jitsu is no easy task. Many pretenders, just like tcma. lol



I know, that a lot of time they start standing up. Perhaps, one of this forum's thousands of BJJ practitioners can enlighten us more on the truth of your statement? You will find that the system has been modified from Judo. the stand up part is to get position to launch the takedown, after that, it's about control and submission.



Wrong again.

Traditional Kyokushikai used to have some ground work. Also, there is at least on lineage of Okinawan Goju Ryu, that trains ground fighting. Do you study Okinawan Karate? I did for years, and I am not wrong, you are uninformed if you think there is wrestling and grappling in these arts. there is not, not any.

Kyokushin kai was mas oyamas style. He was formerly shotokan and while mas may have dabbled in taking down bulls, Kyokushin doesn't deal with wrestling or grappling.




You are probably right about boxing, and sport MT does not have ground fighting, but the traditional one, I am not too sure about. Perhaps, one of this forums's thousands of MT practioners can enlighten us?
Traditional MT is the same as the sport kind, trained the same way with the same intensity. their big thing is their conditioning methods and their power kicks. they do not focus on wrestling at all unless it's an add on to their particular camp.



I was under the impression that some clubs already did that, but I could be wrong... Some clubs are indeed starting to do it. You'd be hard pressed to find some of the old purists doing it though. Some of the old guys are just sticks in teh mud, like a lot of people who simply refuse to continue to learn about their arts because they put themselves in a position above being a student always.

But there is an old saying and it is as true today as it ever was and especially so in context to martial arts. It is:

"The teacher who is not also a student, is neither"

Once an art starts to integrate into your life, you will know it will be a lifetime of learning even if you do teach it. You are still a student, always. In my opinion, this is the correct perspective that will produce the BEST practitioners of any art whether it is lacking a set of range skills or not.

[MasterKiller]

And you base your opinion on?
Monkey Boxing has groundwork. So that is at least one TCMA that has it.

CMA groundwork is based on the supposition that the attacker wants to remain standing. Even in Monkey. Even in that Tiger and "Shaolin" bullsh1t HW108 posted. No control of the opponent on the ground, or concern with securing a dominant position necessary to submit a trained, conditioned fighter.

And that third video is comic gold.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

CMA groundwork is based on the supposition that the attacker wants to remain standing. Even in Monkey. Even in that Tiger and "Shaolin" bullsh1t HW108 posted. No control of the opponent on the ground, or concern with securing a dominant position necessary to submit a trained, conditioned fighter.

And that third video is comic gold.

The best part of the third video is some tool You Tuber commenting saying he has never been beaten by a wrestler or BJJ guy:rolleyes: It simply amazes me on a daily basis how utterly stupid some people are.

[Lucas]

Aren't the Sand Da people in China, from CMA backgrounds?

most certainly, though when those same individuals cross over to the mma sport world, you would be hard pressed to find a succesfull mma figher that has not decided to cross train in either judo, bjj, sambo, etc...

show me a cma school that has a ground fighting program that specializes in ground submissions without any cross training and can hold their own against a bjj blue belt. Or even a school that can show me adequate ground work to be able to get back to their feet when being controlled by a bjj black belt.

[MasterKiller]

Like in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=5fJuugoFrPQ

As soon as he pops his foot up, anyone with 3 months of real training is going to sweep him. This guy knows just enough to get his students seriously hurt.

[YouKnowWho]

What arts would you incorporate and why?
100% TCMA. No boxing, no MT, no wrestling, no Judo, no BJJ, no TKD, ...

- Longfist kick/punch.
- Longfist footwork.
- Longfist elbow.
- SC knee.
- Eagle Craw joint lock.
- Mantis hand combo.
- SC throw.

[David Jamieson]

Is it just me or has Youtube just become an annoying platform for advertising?
It sucks now more than ever.

It was bad enough having all the wannabe man on the street videos that are generally as lame as a run over possum, but now, it's just utter shyte.

where is a better site?

[pateticorecords]

The most notable CMA guy to emphasize the need to crosstrain? :rolleyes:

You do realize Delucia got beaten silly by Royce Gracie and immediately started crosstraining, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

And Cung Le and Luke Cummo certainly crosstrain.

I do understand the importance of cross training, I am all for it;)


I was only giving examples of fighters who have a CMA background not necessarily in the purist sense of it though:)

[pateticorecords]

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.

Exactally!!!!

If you have ever seen someone proficient in Chi Na Fa you will notice the similarties to their Japenese/Brazilian counterparts:p

[Lucas]

although on that same note, you can also see the differences.

[MasterKiller]

100% TCMA. No boxing, no MT, no wrestling, no Judo, no BJJ, no TKD, ...

- Longfist kick/punch.
- Longfist footwork.
- Longfist elbow.
- SC knee.
- Eagle Craw joint lock.
- Mantis hand combo.
- SC throw.

This is great, except there is no groundfighting here. And if you want MMA, you have to have a ground game.

[Lucas]

I do understand the importance of cross training, I am all for it;)


I was only giving examples of fighters who have a CMA background not necessarily in the purist sense of it though:)

I would hope we are all in agreement (minus a few select individuals) that cma certainly has serious material that can help advance a fighter.

[YouKnowWho]

This is great, except there is no groundfighting here. And if you want MMA, you have to have a ground game.

I don't know where I can find that in TCMA. :(

[Lucas]

i love that it say eagle craw lol

[Lucas]

I don't know where I can find that in TCMA. :(

that is his point. we cannot find the groundfighting degree we need for mma from a cma source.

edit: at this point adaption is behind the times. trying to adapt cma grappling on to the ground, from what ever source, would be a very long process that would span generations to reach the point of several arts that have already put in the decades to develop the game.

[pateticorecords]

I would hope we are all in agreement (minus a few select individuals) that cma certainly has serious material that can help advance a fighter.

Another thing that is important to understand is that a lot of the CMA or other MA training is not competitive in nature y more to preserve your life.

I have seen good MMA as well as MA get their asses handed to them in a real brawl. I have also seen skinny little dudes hit a guy twice his size in a vital area and have the big guy crumble like a cookie:p

[Lucas]

i think also that sometimes we focus too much on competetive fighting. i do not compete, so for me that is not the reason i study/train. i do so for fullfillment of a healthy and happy life. and self defense :D

[Eric Olson]

I have also seen skinny little dudes hit a guy twice his size in a vital area and have the big guy crumble like a cookie:p

How unsporting of them....:p

[MightyB]

100% TCMA. No boxing, no MT, no wrestling, no Judo, no BJJ, no TKD, ...

- Longfist kick/punch.
- Longfist footwork.
- Longfist elbow.
- SC knee.
- Eagle Craw joint lock.
- Mantis hand combo.
- SC throw.

I like this list.

Me:

- Mantis (for the flow)
- SC for throws
- Chen Tai Chi for a little internal and something to do as I gracefully grow old
- Longfist for the hard hitting fist and feet.

[MightyB]

I love these long flaming threads. It's why I keep coming back - so I'll play too...

You have train some BJJ to be MMA.

I'll link you all to a true progressive TCMAer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A

[hskwarrior]

i even acknowledge Sifu Kwok, he's even went to make friends at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. very respectable.

[PalmStriker]

You can't because TCMA has no groundfighting.

MMA = multiple ranges, and without a competent ground game, you do not have "MMA."

Monkeystyle Shaolin. There is a match featured online where a Mstyle fighter trashes his opponent within 1/2 minute. I will try to find it to post it.:)

[Lucas]

what kind of match is it?

[Drake]

Like in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=5fJuugoFrPQ

As soon as he pops his foot up, anyone with 3 months of real training is going to sweep him. This guy knows just enough to get his students seriously hurt.

I'm just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when he's fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.

[Knifefighter]

I'm just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when he's fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.

Both people have the option of face strikes while one is in the guard. The person inside the guard generally has the advantage in terms of hand strikes to the face (assuming he understands the dynamics of avoiding arm locks and triangles), while the person using the guard generally has the advantage of using up kicks to the face.

[Drake]

Both people have the option of face strikes while one is in the guard. The person inside the guard generally has the advantage in terms of hand strikes to the face (assuming he understands the dynamics of avoiding arm locks and triangles), while the person using the guard generally has the advantage of using up kicks to the face.

If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard. Best route I've seen is always to flip them over to the mount or into an arm bar.

If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. I've used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and that's because I was being stupid.

Why am I telling you this? I thought you were the groundfighting mastah?

[mooyingmantis]

CMA groundwork is based on the supposition that the attacker wants to remain standing. Even in Monkey. Even in that Tiger and "Shaolin" bullsh1t HW108 posted. No control of the opponent on the ground, or concern with securing a dominant position necessary to submit a trained, conditioned fighter.

And that third video is comic gold.

And you have 30 years of Monkey training and teaching like I do? Please don't tell me how monkey style (nu hou quan) fights.

[MasterKiller]

And you have 30 years of Monkey training and teaching like I do? Please don't tell me how monkey style (nu hou quan) fights.

Blah blah. Until one of you guys that has always had ground fighting even though no one has ever seen it steps up and shows a video that's half-way decent, it's just more of the same nonsense.

Prove me wrong. Show us your guys "monkey" fighting and working for transitions and positional dominance on the ground.

[MasterKiller]

If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard. Best route I've seen is always to flip them over to the mount or into an arm bar.

If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. I've used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and that's because I was being stupid.

Why am I telling you this? I thought you were the groundfighting mastah?

Lots of advanced grapplers use an open guard. Just saying...

[Drake]

Lots of advanced grapplers use an open guard. Just saying...

I ain't fond of it.

Just sayin'. :D

[Hardwork108]

I found this post of yours so "amazing" in its implications, that I had to answer it AGAIN!!!!!!! LOL!


kung fu schools, "thousands" as they may be do not address grappling, wrestling, ground positions etc.
Now you know about the thousands of styles of kung fu out there? Very interesting......listen most people in this forum don't even have a half baked understanding of a single style, despite their self advertised "decades of training" in most things, but genuine TCMAs......

I guess you are one of those rare genuises......:rolleyes:


It doesn't matter if some obscure dude in a littel village in shandung uses wrestling in his village tiger style.

Yes, what would a Chinese kung fu master from the Shandung province know about the TCMAs, compared to one of the many of this forum's TCMA geniuses, David Jamieson....

By the way, Mooyinmantis,who posts here seems to also teach (monkey)kung fu ground fighting....but yes what does he know about the TCMAs, in comparison to your knowledge of the thousands of styles and substyles of kung fu out there? LOL!


That is completely irelevant to the main question of groundwork/grappling/wrestling and how to deal with someone while in a guard, in a mount, with or under someone else side control etc etc.

Perhaps you should ask the "obscure dude" from Shandung about your enquiries?


those "thousands" of cma styles do not address that in a big way and it is necessary.
I just keep forgetting about your vast and detailed knowledge of the thousands of TCMA styles, in a forum where most people's kung fu knowledge of a single styles falls even below the mediocre.....I wonder if there are more genuises like you in Canada.......


shuai chiao is the closest you come to any sort of standing grapples that lead to throws and there is no groundwork for the most part.
Maybe you are right, or maybe you are wrong, but we are not just discussing Shuai chiao...


chin na address grabs, seizes and holds but doesn't address someone in the mount smashing their elbows down on your face.
It may or it may not, but most probably it will address you not ending there in the first place, even when you are already on the ground.;)


to be fair, Muay Thai doesn't address ground work and neither does Karate in any form, boxing, kickboxing, tae kwon do, bagua, taichi, xingyi, etc. Kung Fu isn't the only one that doesn't deal with wrestling, grappling it has to be added in or onto a style in order to address it.
Christ, I fell off my chair reading that. Not only do you have detailed knowledge of the thousands of TCMA styles, but you are also well versed in karate (all styles, I assume), TKD, and MT.....:rolleyes:


The very fact that a person would rail against this simple truth is indicative that perhaps they don't know what they are talking about and maybe should give consideration to those who do recognize the leaks.

Well, so far your version of the "simple truth" or is it universal truth, that is providing all the laughs....LOL!

Yes, Kung Fu is a lot of things, but it is not everything and doesn't adequately address all forms of combat in and of itself no matter how many iterations there are of it.[/QUOTE]

And we all know that you have fully studied all the "many iterations" of kung fu.....LOL!

[David Jamieson]

And we all know that you have fully studied all the "many iterations" of kung fu.....LOL!

the "many iterations" don't exist you knucklehead.

there is only one karate. :rolleyes:

[SoCo KungFu]

I'm just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when he's fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.

Stacking someone on their neck and punching them in the face is one of the easiest ways to pass guard so long as you don't do something dumb and get locked or swept. The problem is this dude has absolutely no clue on using his body weight for control. Soon as his leg posted he'd have been on his back. He practically walked right into one of my favorite and most simplistic of sweeps....ugh...supposed kung fu experts walking into first month BJJ basics...

[Knifefighter]

If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard.

It's called open guard. It kind of works like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg58TdNUM24



If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. I've used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and that's because I was being stupid.

Sounds like you need to work with people who are better at striking from inside the closed guard.

[Hardwork108]

what's your experience been?

The Mainland Chinese of Wing Chun that I trained has ground fighting training as a part of its traditional curriculum (using WC concepts and principles)!

The video evidence of the "obscure" Chinese master, is still evidence, wether you want to see it or not.

Many years ago I read a letter posted from a Northern Mantis practitioner in I think the Kung fu Magazine, advising an American 7 Star Praying Mantis practitioner, who thought that Mantis did not contain ground fighting, to the contrary.

There is also a style of kung fu referred to as "Dog Fighting" that also addresses the ground scenario.



Mine has been somewhat robust and "all" ranges are not addressed, certainly not any wrestling at all. throws? sure, grabs and takedowns? sure. Ground work? ZERO.
Well, as far as the GENUINE kung fu exposure of most of this forum's members are concerned, then ZERO is a relevant word....


JJ is not exactly what I would call pure, although some of it is and does have stand up, JJ in GJJ or in context to sportive doesn't employ the old ways and leans more towards trhe gracie and brazilian models fo what jj is. TO find genuine traditional japanese ju jitsu is no easy task. Many pretenders, just like tcma. lol

Again, I believe that Brazilian JJ, is referred to as BJJ or GJJ, while the Japanese one is referred to as JJ or JJJ. So if you say that JJ is only about ground fighting, then you are wrong.


You will find that the system has been modified from Judo. the stand up part is to get position to launch the takedown, after that, it's about control and submission.
Maybe yes, maybe no. That is why I would like a person who actually practices it to come and clarify this point. Is there any stand up striking in BJJ or no???



Do you study Okinawan Karate?

No I have not. Have you studied every style and lineage of kung fu, to completions?

And have you studied all styles and all lineages of Okinawan karate to completion?


I did for years,
The world is full of peole who have "studied" Karate and Kung Fu, and many of them post cluelessly in this very forum....


and I am not wrong, you are uninformed if you think there is wrestling and grappling in these arts. there is not, not any.
I am very well informed. You need to re-assess your "experience" in Okinawan Karate, as well as, Chinese Kung fu, I might add.;)

By the way, here is a link to a TRADITIONAL Goju Ryu school in London, run by 6th Dan Sensei, Gavin Mulholland. I have been to their dojo and have seen them sparring stand up, and then taking it down to the ground for rolls and submissions. at the time of my visit, this dojo was linked to a traditional karate organization HQ-ed in Okinawa. I don't know if they are still part of that organization. Read the first paragraph. If you are in doubt then feel free to email the sensei, for confirmation of what I just said!


http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html



Kyokushin kai was mas oyamas style. He was formerly shotokan and while mas may have dabbled in taking down bulls, Kyokushin doesn't deal with wrestling or grappling.
Oyama was formerly Goju ryu. His Shotokan past has been debated by some. In the book, "This is Karate", written by Mas. Oyama, and not me, on page 267 you see the beginning of chapter 15, headed, "Lying-doun (down?) Techniques. The whole of this chapter is about what to do when you are taken down. Which means, Ground Fighting.



Traditional MT is the same as the sport kind, trained the same way with the same intensity. their big thing is their conditioning methods and their power kicks. they do not focus on wrestling at all unless it's an add on to their particular camp.
Well, I truely and honestly would not know. However, if I was searching for groundfighting in MT, then I would look at their older traditional, none sport versions and lineages, or perhaps I should listen to you, as you seem to have studied them all.....:rolleyes:



Some clubs are indeed starting to do it. You'd be hard pressed to find some of the old purists doing it though. Some of the old guys are just sticks in teh mud, like a lot of people who simply refuse to continue to learn about their arts because they put themselves in a position above being a student always.
So, I was right, some clubs do train the whole package....


But there is an old saying and it is as true today as it ever was and especially so in context to martial arts. It is:

"The teacher who is not also a student, is neither"
Well, I am amazed that you act like a, know it all, about all of the TCMA styles under the sun, not to mention the Karate and MT styles, as well, and then you post the above quote.

IMHO, the above quote should be made into a sticky for all the "warriors" who post in this forum, while cluelessly generalizing about the TCMAs, pretending to have knowledge that they have no hope in h&ll of having.


Once an art starts to integrate into your life, you will know it will be a lifetime of learning even if you do teach it. You are still a student, always. In my opinion, this is the correct perspective that will produce the BEST practitioners of any art whether it is lacking a set of range skills or not.

Well, I have never claimed to be anything but a kung fu student, if you think I have then please indicate where....

[Hardwork108]

the "many iterations" don't exist you knucklehead.

there is only one karate. :rolleyes:

Correction, there is only one IDEA of karate, but there are many styles.....

[Yum Cha]

I think a good definition of ground fighting is needed.

Is standing over, knee riding and pounding ground fighting?

Side control, mount, guard, 1/2 guard, clearly ground fighting.

Pak Mei has a takedown that follows up with some kicking, ground to ground, that can sometimes give you a leg for large joint attack as well....but its not a mainstream thing, and its not ground fighting, just another tech.

We have a set of up kicks that are really good for regaining your feet against most guys, if you get one of those San Da takedowns and keep flowing.

We have a number of traps and locks that can be used to drag someone down, and hold them. That's about the extend of it.

If you have a 'sticky style' or a "flowing" style (Pak mei or Tai Chi Chuan?) where you keep a lot of contact with an opponent, and you attack their centre of gravity, i.e. SC, do you have the COUNTERS for a grappler, without having to grapple? In a lot of places you do, its not a total vulnerability. But its certainly underdeveloped and under trained. I think that is evolving.

You know, what are the stages of mourning? First comes denial, then anger, sadness, and then resolution, something like that. Maybe were moving out of the anger stage.....LOL.


Perhaps a justification?
There is a whole argument for direct action being most efficient. i.e. why grapple down to control and attack a joint when you can just go directly to attacking the joint? For example, If we grab a wrist lock or something like that, we don't go for a bar, we straight away go for the break with a strike or a smash. You only need a couple of seconds of control.

[EarthDragon]

8 step praying mantis is technically a MMA hybrid Kung fu made up of 14 styles some of which are tong bei, bagua, xing yi, tai ji, shuai jiao. chin na fa....
it has punches kicks, joint locks, throws and ground fighting. and it suits me very well,

[Drake]

It's called open guard. It kind of works like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg58TdNUM24




Sounds like you need to work with people who are better at striking from inside the closed guard.

So it's not even really a guard... but sort of a half-way shrimp and kick to the face?

And to answer the second one, it's hard not to telegraph your intent, especially when striking is such an attractive option.

Ain't arguing... sounds like different points of view if you ask me.

[Eric Olson]

There is a whole argument for direct action being most efficient. i.e. why grapple down to control and attack a joint when you can just go directly to attacking the joint? For example, If we grab a wrist lock or something like that, we don't go for a bar, we straight away go for the break with a strike or a smash. You only need a couple of seconds of control.

True dat. A common joint attack I've seen in most kung fu styles is to intercept the punch and jam the elbow with a forearm. I wouldn't call that a submission.

EO

[Drake]

You probably want to realistically have sme ground fighting under your belt. Crouching zebra, jumping weasel will not save you on the ground.

That being said, you also shouldn't think that learning some of this stuff will somehow destroy the "purity" of your style. It's just to keep you safe when that 220lb guy barrels through your say ping mah and gwa choi.

And on the flip side of that flip side, ground fighting isn't the end all be all either.

[goju]

actually hard work is correct goju ryu and a few other karate styles do have grappling in their curriculum

lyoto machida

"My style is Machida Karate and it is a very traditional form.It differs from sports karate which we usually see in Karate schools and competitions as it has many elements which were lost in the style including the use of knees, elbows, takedowns and even some submissions".

Granted again its not as thorough as the judo or bjj arsenal but its a decent start.

[tiaji1983]

I understand you mean MMA as groundfighting, But Hung Ga is the first original Mixed Martial Art. It is not meant for the ground, but in some forms you do go to the ground, and one of the combined styles is drunken boxing, which some styles that do go to the ground.

An example would be, one time when I wasnt there, so Im sure your all gonna dismiss it as a lie, or fake, but for the purpose of the story, a jiujitsu guy challenged one of our students at the school I train in. The student done drunken boxing. The jiujitsu guy got the drunken boxer on the ground, and dropped onto side guard and was attempting an armbar (not sure exactly what arm lock it was, but he was leaning forward and had the arm locked). The drunken boxer rolled using a Chung Li Chuan technique, (The fat Immortal holding the gourd) and the jiujitsu guy was catapulted face first into the floor. We do not use mats so it was flat on the cement.

[Frost]

I think a good definition of ground fighting is needed.

Is standing over, knee riding and pounding ground fighting?

Side control, mount, guard, 1/2 guard, clearly ground fighting.

Pak Mei has a takedown that follows up with some kicking, ground to ground, that can sometimes give you a leg for large joint attack as well....but its not a mainstream thing, and its not ground fighting, just another tech.

We have a set of up kicks that are really good for regaining your feet against most guys, if you get one of those San Da takedowns and keep flowing.

We have a number of traps and locks that can be used to drag someone down, and hold them. That's about the extend of it.

If you have a 'sticky style' or a "flowing" style (Pak mei or Tai Chi Chuan?) where you keep a lot of contact with an opponent, and you attack their centre of gravity, i.e. SC, do you have the COUNTERS for a grappler, without having to grapple? In a lot of places you do, its not a total vulnerability. But its certainly underdeveloped and under trained. I think that is evolving.

You know, what are the stages of mourning? First comes denial, then anger, sadness, and then resolution, something like that. Maybe were moving out of the anger stage.....LOL.


Perhaps a justification?
There is a whole argument for direct action being most efficient. i.e. why grapple down to control and attack a joint when you can just go directly to attacking the joint? For example, If we grab a wrist lock or something like that, we don't go for a bar, we straight away go for the break with a strike or a smash. You only need a couple of seconds of control.

maybe not but being stood over, being under ground and pound and being under a knee ride is ground work lol

If you are a sticky art and dont train it to its fullist (ie allow leg attacks clinch work body lock and throws) then you are really setting up yourself for a real problem, i know this from personal expereince and I have seen it with others, if you are a close range sticking art you are in grappling range and you have to be aware that these days people wont play the cente line sticky hands striking game they will play the throwing/clinching and striking game and you need to understand this game to make your art work

Your last arguement sounds logical unfortunatly attacking a limb without controlling the body is very very hard to do, people move around they cover up and they bounce back up after being thrown down, grapplers would love to throw and go straight into a lock anmd MMA guys would love to throw to straight ground and pound it beats all that other stuff hands down, but it rairly if ever happens like that

[goju]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI

heres a hammed up demo of the goju sticky hands with some grappling in it

[Yum Cha]

maybe not but being stood over, being under ground and pound and being under a knee ride is ground work lol

If you are a sticky art and dont train it to its fullist (ie allow leg attacks clinch work body lock and throws) then you are really setting up yourself for a real problem, i know this from personal expereince and I have seen it with others, if you are a close range sticking art you are in grappling range and you have to be aware that these days people wont play the cente line sticky hands striking game they will play the throwing/clinching and striking game and you need to understand this game to make your art work

I'm glad you brought up that point as it lines right up with my thinking. Sticky fighters have to attack the centre of gravity, not the limbs, to be most effective.


Your last arguement sounds logical unfortunatly attacking a limb without controlling the body is very very hard to do, people move around they cover up and they bounce back up after being thrown down, grapplers would love to throw and go straight into a lock anmd MMA guys would love to throw to straight ground and pound it beats all that other stuff hands down, but it rairly if ever happens like that

Think of it this way, you are in the mount, and the guy reaches up to your throat with a straight arm. You can go for the armbar (lock the arm, shift your hips, rotate your body, and drop), or grab the hand, twist a 1/4 to half circle as you strike the straightened, or even locked elbow. Its capitalising on a very small window of opportunity with precision force.

Now, the example may be poor, but the principle is applicable. The same reason we punch through blocks, because if you can block, you can strike, and striking is better than blocking. Taking a weak hit in exchange for a strong one is acceptable.

This is training as well, perhaps more psychological than physical, but training nevertheless.

[Frost]

Heres my list of pure TCMA for MMA:

CLF for outside and longer range power striking and foot work
Hung gar for power and stability close in
Hakka art for close range striking and clinch work
SC for throwing and clinch
And the ancient art of tapping for the ground :o)

Why are guys so all bent up about using pure TCMA for everything, h*ll no art in china started off as pure anyway, , hung fut, CLF, bak mei, yung ling, Northern Mantis etc are all amalgamations of other styles (admittedly Chinese styles but then china was an isolated country for a long time) hung gar added in the long arm stuff and took sets whole sale from other arts, the iron wire set and the lau gar set for example, the masters who actually fought when they saw boxing and judo saw the benefits of these arts and most trained in one or the other or both (just like Ross’s master), h*ll when setting up the san shau programme the Chinese officials also brought in boxing experts as well as the best masters of the time…what does that tell you?

Do people really think that when wong fei hung was adding the longer range strikes to him village art after seeing how effective the lama style was that if he had also seen judo he wouldn’t have added its throws and ground work in just because they weren’t Chinese in origin?

These arts adapted to the changing times and skills of their opponents, who here can really argue that the masters of old were wrong for changing with the times and allowing their arts to change as a result?

[Frost]

I'm glad you brought up that point as it lines right up with my thinking. Sticky fighters have to attack the centre of gravity, not the limbs, to be most effective..

The problem is if you attack the centre of gravity without knowledge of hip throws, body lock throws, level changes and clinch work you are in for a nasty surprise, now if you have that knowledge then its not a problem, I’m not sure tai chi outside of the chen village has it, certainly not in the yang I have seen, and the bit of bak mei and dragon I did didn’t have it either, your expertise in bakmei is greater than mine, so is it in there or are you having to go outside the art to work against them? That’s not an bad thing its great you are thinking like this I just wondered where you are working on it and with whom?



Think of it this way, you are in the mount, and the guy reaches up to your throat with a straight arm. You can go for the armbar (lock the arm, shift your hips, rotate your body, and drop), or grab the hand, twist a 1/4 to half circle as you strike the straightened, or even locked elbow. Its capitalising on a very small window of opportunity with precision force.

Now, the example may be poor, but the principle is applicable. The same reason we punch through blocks, because if you can block, you can strike, and striking is better than blocking. Taking a weak hit in exchange for a strong one is acceptable.

This is training as well, perhaps more psychological than physical, but training nevertheless.

Firstly in mount you are in a control position so I’m not too sure how this matches up with your original point of going straight for a sub rather than a control position? But that aside the problem is how effective is the move and how likely is it to be pulled off?

My experience tells me that to break a limb you have to control it, I haven’t seen many grab and hit breaks pulled off successfully, I have seen loads of arm bars pulled off and a lot of breaks in comps if people don’t tap in time so I go with what I know works. And although it might take longer to perform (I say might because I have been arm locked way to quickly by guys for my liking) the control you have is constant so you don’t need the split second to pull it off

Also note that in MMA (which was originally asked about) hitting straight on the joint is illegal in most comps (before a certain person, not you, starts to argue this is because its too dangerous for sports please note the commissions banned a lot of things out of ignorance not because they are too dangerous and that in the first MMA matches and still in vale tudo these things are legal but you never saw them pulled off)

Now if we are talking pure self defence not comps I would simply keep hitting him and I wouldn’t be in mount but knee on stomach…..I have seen guys finish fights with broken limbs but once you knock them out they tend to go limp :)

[Frost]

Another thing that is important to understand is that a lot of the CMA or other MA training is not competitive in nature y more to preserve your life.

I have seen good MMA as well as MA get their asses handed to them in a real brawl. I have also seen skinny little dudes hit a guy twice his size in a vital area and have the big guy crumble like a cookie:p

realy which MMA figthers have you seen this happen to, please tell?

[Dragonzbane76]

TCMA has lots to offer. you just have to dig though the crap to find the diamonds. I've never written off any style or art and listed it all as complete garbage. People get to wrapped up in the perfection of things that they sometimes forget the basis of it.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Heres my list of pure TCMA for MMA:

CLF for outside and longer range power striking and foot work
Hung gar for power and stability close in
Hakka art for close range striking and clinch work
SC for throwing and clinch
And the ancient art of tapping for the ground :o)

Why are guys so all bent up about using pure TCMA for everything, h*ll no art in china started off as pure anyway, , hung fut, CLF, bak mei, yung ling, Northern Mantis etc are all amalgamations of other styles (admittedly Chinese styles but then china was an isolated country for a long time) hung gar added in the long arm stuff and took sets whole sale from other arts, the iron wire set and the lau gar set for example, the masters who actually fought when they saw boxing and judo saw the benefits of these arts and most trained in one or the other or both (just like Ross’s master), h*ll when setting up the san shau programme the Chinese officials also brought in boxing experts as well as the best masters of the time…what does that tell you?

Do people really think that when wong fei hung was adding the longer range strikes to him village art after seeing how effective the lama style was that if he had also seen judo he wouldn’t have added its throws and ground work in just because they weren’t Chinese in origin?

These arts adapted to the changing times and skills of their opponents, who here can really argue that the masters of old were wrong for changing with the times and allowing their arts to change as a result?

This is pretty much what should end this discussion. I find it humoring that a bunch of westerners act as though it's a cardinal sin to cross train or add to their Kung Fu something that is not Chinese when most of the Chinese themselves would have or do cross train in these systems. I find it absolutely ******ing hilarious to tell you the truth.

If a style or system of fighting does not evolve and adapt, it is a dead style. Period. Times change, people change, situations and sceneirios change. I guarantee you that the ancient warriors these guys worship like gods would have adapted and used whatever worked for them, be it a chinese art or not. Too many people get wrapped up in the mystical BS or engulfed in a culture they really do not understand, but think they do. My two cents.;)

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps a justification?
There is a whole argument for direct action being most efficient. i.e. why grapple down to control and attack a joint when you can just go directly to attacking the joint?

Because when you do it for real against a resisting opponent, that's what you HAVE to do in the huge majority of cases.

[Knifefighter]

True dat. A common joint attack I've seen in most kung fu styles is to intercept the punch and jam the elbow with a forearm. I wouldn't call that a submission.

EO

Too bad that doesn't work against a resisting opponent.

[Drake]

Even Chan Heung learned multiple styles. Just sayin'. :D

[Hardwork108]

actually hard work is correct goju ryu and a few other karate styles do have grappling in their curriculum

lyoto machida

"My style is Machida Karate and it is a very traditional form.It differs from sports karate which we usually see in Karate schools and competitions as it has many elements which were lost in the style including the use of knees, elbows, takedowns and even some submissions".

Granted again its not as thorough as the judo or bjj arsenal but its a decent start.

I see that the TCMA-clueless MMA knucklehead majority of this forum have ignored this post of yours so far.

I guess that if they don't know about something then for all intents and purposes, it does not exist, and if you come along and say otherwise with proof and evidence, their fragile egos will just ignore it.

Machida was an execellent example. He practices traditional Shotokan Karate, including the katas and so on.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI

heres a hammed up demo of the goju sticky hands with some grappling in it

That is an excellent video, and more proof that karate styles such as Goju Ryu, address the ground scenario.

However, I am still hearing crickets singing in the background......

Perhaps the kung fu-clueless MMA lot, and their pseudo-kung fu friends think that the truth will go away if they just ignore it....LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think many striking guys tend to confuse ground fighting with fighting FROM the ground.
Two different things.
There is a reason that any karateka wanting to develop a ground game goes to Judo and/or BJJ.
There is a reason that TCMA and sport CMA when they need to develop a ground game go to Judo and/or BJJ.
There is a reason that you don't find submission grappling before the 20th century in TCMA manuals.

People can HOPE and Believe that those things were there from the very beginning, but that doesn't make it so.

Here is a core basic principle that EVERY system that professes to address fighting on the ground must have:
Positional dominance.
If that is NOT the FIRST thing addressed then, well...enough said.

[Drake]

"Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system. "
Bruce Lee

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI

heres a hammed up demo of the goju sticky hands with some grappling in it

Having spoken to Higaonna sensei a few times and having SEEN Goju in Okinawa I can tell you this:
Standing grappling and throwing was always part of the curriculm.
Ground work and chokes and subs on the ground were NOT.
They were added post WW2 after Goju was exposed to Judo from Japan.

[goju]

Heres my list of pure TCMA for MMA:

CLF for outside and longer range power striking and foot work
Hung gar for power and stability close in
Hakka art for close range striking and clinch work
SC for throwing and clinch
And the ancient art of tapping for the ground :o)

Why are guys so all bent up about using pure TCMA for everything, h*ll no art in china started off as pure anyway, , hung fut, CLF, bak mei, yung ling, Northern Mantis etc are all amalgamations of other styles (admittedly Chinese styles but then china was an isolated country for a long time) hung gar added in the long arm stuff and took sets whole sale from other arts, the iron wire set and the lau gar set for example, the masters who actually fought when they saw boxing and judo saw the benefits of these arts and most trained in one or the other or both (just like Ross’s master), h*ll when setting up the san shau programme the Chinese officials also brought in boxing experts as well as the best masters of the time…what does that tell you?

Do people really think that when wong fei hung was adding the longer range strikes to him village art after seeing how effective the lama style was that if he had also seen judo he wouldn’t have added its throws and ground work in just because they weren’t Chinese in origin?

These arts adapted to the changing times and skills of their opponents, who here can really argue that the masters of old were wrong for changing with the times and allowing their arts to change as a result?

it is amusing how many chinese stories start off with so and so mixing this art with another after cross training with another master and style but yet that flies over peoples heads:D

[Dragonzbane76]

no one is ignoring Goju. And I'm sure he'll even state that its not a complete spectrum of grappling as BJJ and Judo put forth.

your as dense as a slab of granite HW8.

The problem is if you want the best you go to the source. And TCMA is not the source of the answers for the ground game.

[Knifefighter]

I see that the TCMA-clueless MMA knucklehead majority of this forum have ignored this post of yours so far.

We ignored it because it is a demo and shows absolutely nothing. There is a reason you don't see the majority of the techs in that clip when people go against resisting opponents... it's because they don't work.

If you are doing only demos and not actually training full force against resisting opponents, you really don't "have" it in your style... you simply have the theoretical, fantasy version of what you think it should be like.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you are doing only demos and not actually training full force against resisting opponents, you really don't "have" it in your style... you simply have the theoretical, fantasy version of what you think it should be like.

THIS....

people take seeing people pull off techniques against someone lunging with a reverse punch from across the room as actual fighting. :rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I see that the TCMA-clueless MMA knucklehead majority of this forum have ignored this post of yours so far.

I guess that if they don't know about something then for all intents and purposes, it does not exist, and if you come along and say otherwise with proof and evidence, their fragile egos will just ignore it.

Machida was an execellent example. He practices traditional Shotokan Karate, including the katas and so on.

Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions. FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I'm sure this plays a bigger part in Machida's ground game than his Karate training, although his father's system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems. Also, his father advocated cross training, but I'm sure you knew that, huh princess.;)

[goju]

Having spoken to Higaonna sensei a few times and having SEEN Goju in Okinawa I can tell you this:
Standing grappling and throwing was always part of the curriculm.
Ground work and chokes and subs on the ground were NOT.
They were added post WW2 after Goju was exposed to Judo from Japan.

yup im aware miyagi was a pal of kano and i believe they were thinking of addinga full judo curriculum to goju at one point in time no?

but i still see it as part of the curiculm despite the fact it wasnt there originally thus making it unpure lol

ground fighting is in bits of different arts whether it was always there or added in later the main thing is with that being said people have to realize whats there isnt generally enough..

sure it has some but i wouldnt enter a grappling tourney with just the goju ryu grappling under my belt

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions. FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I'm sure this plays a bigger part in Machida's ground game than his Karate training, although his father's system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems. Also, his father advocated cross training, but I'm sure you knew that, huh princess.;)

Having visited Machida's dojo when I was in Brasil a while back I can confirm what you just said.
While Machida-ryu karate still has Kata as part of their grading curriculm, it is a hybrid system that incorporated BJJ, Judo, Sambo and MT.
What they were very smart about doing though is that they kept the "karate flavour" to it and adapted Karate to deal with those systems and that is why Machida was/is successful, he brought something "different" to the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yup im aware miyagi was a pal of kano and i believe they were thinking of addinga full judo curriculum to goju at one point in time no?

but i still see it as part of the curiculm despite the fact it wasnt there originally thus making it unpure lol

ground fighting is in bits of different arts whether it was always there or added in later the main thing is with that being said people have to realize whats there isnt generally enough..

sure it has some but i wouldnt enter a grappling tourney with just the goju ryu grappling under my belt

Yeah, some systems did add Judo while others just add some stuff, but very few ( if any) added a comprehensive newaza curriculum.
They did their best to ADDRESS the grappling problem they the Judo guys presented them.
Unfortunately there were too many "too deadly" guys at the helm and it never got implemented to the degree that it should so most just cross train in Judo and that is why so many of the upper level Karate guys ALSO have ranking in Judo and nowadays, BJJ.

[Hardwork108]

This is pretty much what should end this discussion. I find it humoring that a bunch of westerners act as though it's a cardinal sin to cross train or add to their Kung Fu something that is not Chinese when most of the Chinese themselves would have or do cross train in these systems.

Wait a minute, we have David Jamieson here that implies that he knows every TCMA and TJMA, together with modern traditional MT, and makes clueless generalized statements. Then you come along and imply that you know most of the Chinese MA population in China and beyond? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!!!





I find it absolutely ******ing hilarious to tell you the truth.

Yes, me too....:rolleyes:


If a style or system of fighting does not evolve and adapt, it is a dead style. Period.

Yes, aren't we lucky to have the MMA knuckleheads of this forum to come and "evolve" and "improve" arts that have evolved way beyond their comprehensions, like about 500 years ago....LOL

Aren't we lucky to have an MMA knucklehead contingent here that are such geniuses that they can "evolve" and "improve" all of the TCMAs, without they, themselves having any genuine and meaningful kung fu study under their belts.

Of course, who needs serious TCMA study, when they can just take some kickboxing and grappling classes to qualify them to "improve" a thousand kung fu styles, at one go...:rolleyes:



Times change, people change, situations and sceneirios change. I guarantee you that the ancient warriors these guys worship like gods would have adapted and used whatever worked for them, be it a chinese art or not.

I don't think anyone here has mentioned worshipping anyone!!!

Secondly, the ancient kung fu masters, may have (intelligently and relevantly) cross trained in other kung fu styles, but that was all they needed, as they actually studied kung fu and did not study some half baked Mcdojo version in some Shmucksville thousands of miles away in China.



Too many people get wrapped up in the mystical BS or engulfed in a culture they really do not understand, but think they do. My two cents.;)

Well, in your case, you had better understand the culture that spawned the arts, before you try and "evolve" them.

This thread, if anything, has proved how clueless about the TCMAs the MMA "forum gods" and the know it all, pseudo-kung fu-ists, together with their "decades of experience" really are!

The overall majority of you guys did not know about he existance of grappling and groundwork in the TCMAs (and the TJMA, apparently). When you were proved wrong, you and your fragile, not to mention clueless, egos, just ignore the fact and just repeat your "political line".

I made relevant posts, EarthDragon and Goju, did so as well, but the MMA bird brains continue with their clueless agenda....LOL

There are others here that have no understanding of Internal body unity concepts of the TCMAs. More of you guys have only a basic understanding of two man exercises such as chi sao, and two man forms. There are more of you who do not understand the concepts behind the development forms and practices such as Iron Palm/Fist/Body.

Yet, most of you feel qualified enough to suggest improvements for thousands of TCMAs that have been around for thousands of years, based on your at best mediocre understanding of them.

One really could not invent this stuff........:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

were you born a douchbag or did you just become one over time?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Wait a minute, we have David Jamieson here that implies that he knows every TCMA and TJMA, together with modern traditional MT, and makes clueless generalized statements. Then you come along and imply that you know most of the Chinese MA population in China and beyond? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!!!






Yes, me too....:rolleyes:



Yes, aren't we lucky to have the MMA knuckleheads of this forum to come and "evolve" and "improve" arts that have evolved way beyond their comprehensions, like about 500 years ago....LOL

Aren't we lucky to have an MMA knucklehead contingent here that are such geniuses that they can "evolve" and "improve" all of the TCMAs, without they, themselves having any genuine and meaningful kung fu study under their belts.

Of course, who needs serious TCMA study, when they can just take some kickboxing and grappling classes to qualify them to "improve" a thousand kung fu styles, at one go...:rolleyes:




I don't think anyone here has mentioned worshipping anyone!!!

Secondly, the ancient kung fu masters, may have (intelligently and relevantly) cross trained in other kung fu styles, but that was all they needed, as they actually studied kung fu and did not study some half baked Mcdojo version in some Shmucksville thousands of miles away in China.




Well, in your case, you had better understand the culture that spawned the arts, before you try and "evolve" them.

This thread, if anything, has proved how clueless about the TCMAs the MMA "forum gods" and the know it all, pseudo-kung fu-ists, together with their "decades of experience" really are!

The overall majority of you guys did not know about he existance of grappling and groundwork in the TCMAs (and the TJMA, apparently). When you were proved wrong, you and your fragile, not to mention clueless, egos, just ignore the fact and just repeat your "political line".

I made relevant posts, EarthDragon and Goju, did so as well, but the MMA bird brains continue with their clueless agenda....LOL

There are others here that have no understanding of Internal body unity concepts of the TCMAs. More of you guys have only a basic understanding of two man exercises such as chi sao, and two man forms. There are more of you who do not understand the concepts behind the development forms and practices such as Iron Palm/Fist/Body.

Yet, most of you feel qualified enough to suggest improvements for thousands of TCMAs that have been around for thousands of years, based on your at best mediocre understanding of them.

One really could not invent this stuff........:rolleyes:

Still waiting on your response about Machida, who you know so much about, and his traditional Shotokan training, you know so much about. Funny how you like to ignore those facts presented to you. Also, what is your expertise in Okinawan Karate, since now you seem so informed regarding those styles. I know, cut and paste, cut and paste.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Machida was an execellent example. He practices traditional Shotokan Karate, including the katas and so on.

LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt!

[goju]

were you born a douchbag or did you just become one over time?

you mean like how a catepillar eventually becomes a buterfly?:D

[goju]

ive seen other shotokan stylist show abit of grappling in their style too so it was likely another influence from judo

[Iron_Eagle_76]

LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt!

Dude, ever hear the saying like ******ing in the wind. Just saying.:)

[Dragonzbane76]

you mean like how a catepillar eventually becomes a buterfly?

in a poetic sense yes! :)

[Hardwork108]

LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt!

Yes, but read his words, quoted by Goju!

[Hardwork108]

Still waiting on your response about Machida, who you know so much about, and his traditional Shotokan training, you know so much about. Funny how you like to ignore those facts presented to you. Also, what is your expertise in Okinawan Karate, since now you seem so informed regarding those styles. I know, cut and paste, cut and paste.:rolleyes:

Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida's own words,as to how he describes his karate.

If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!

[Dragonzbane76]

The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!

you answered with yes. Everyone else answer with verying comments.

[Frost]

Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida's own words,as to how he describes his karate.

If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!

That might have been the question those little voices in your head were asking but it is not the question here, here the question was question was can you construct a MMA system from TCMA styles (read the thread title if you are in doubt of the subject matter  ), MMA refers to the sports environment so no you cant and Machida has admitted as much by getting a BJJ blackbelt in order to compete in MMA

[Eric Olson]

Too bad that doesn't work against a resisting opponent.

In this case there's nothing to "resist."

Here's an example of something like what I'm talking about in a competitive environment, done with speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

Here's another demo with fingerless gloves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0

Now these are a little different than what I'm talking about which is to lead the punch and then directly strike the joint.

EO

[David Jamieson]

Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida's own words,as to how he describes his karate.

If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, whether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!

You are being willfully ignorant here.

No it does not adequately address ground fighting in the sense of actually understanding control positions, slips and escapes, submission holds etc.
There are no karate styles or kung fu styles that deal with this stuff.

the closest thing to a grappling art in cma is shaui chiao and that is more of a throwing art (throw horn).

some guys lay claim to snake or dog boxing as covering it, but it doesn't at all when actually reviewed.

I have good experience in Okinawan karate having been a practitioner prior to other arts pursuits and I can tell you out and out that you are wrong about ground fighting in these as well.

Why do you insist on banging your head against the wall with this.
You are wrong, period. Listen and learn for a change. It will take you further in your understanding which is demonstrably inadequate so far.

as for the "thousands of styles" that's a crock really. There are very slight and minor variations across styles that in reality do not change what does and what doesn't work. Often these stylistic changes are minor and irrelevant to the efficacy of the art.

More often than not, this reference of hundreds of arts is thrown out as a cover to what people DON'T know as opposed to what they do. It's an obfuscation tactic to say something as stupid as "well there's thousands of them and you can't know them all so I guess I'm right".

When in fact, all that is is an evasive weasel tactic. Do you really think there are huge differences in how someone is going to punch you, kick you, choke you, throw you?

the differences are a few, but really not that many.

[Hardwork108]

Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions.

The question was not which is better. The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate. The answer, unknown to you and your "MMA is Best" friends, was a big UNKNOWN.

Well, now you know, the TCMAs and the Traditional Karate, take into account the ground scenario.



FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I'm sure this plays a bigger part in Machida's ground game than his Karate training,
Again, that was not the question. Machida could have a black belt in Mongolian wrestling, and that would not change the fact that his karate takes into account the groundfighting scenario. End of story!!!



although his father's system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems.

I am sure that his father will be eternally grateful for your knowledgable compliments for his karate.....



Also, his father advocated cross training, but I'm sure you knew that, huh princess.;)

Hey, I might cross train if I was to enter sports tournaments, however, I don't need to cross train my kung fu for the street. So again, that is not the point.

The point is that karate and kung fu take into acccount the ground scenario. Hey, now that you and your MMA lot are here, then you might as well learn something about the TCMAs....:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

You are digging a hole even deeper than the one you were in before.

seriously, your ignorance is a shining beacon at this point man.

[Hardwork108]

That might have been the question those little voices in your head were asking but it is not the question here, here the question was question was can you construct a MMA system from TCMA styles (read the thread title if you are in doubt of the subject matter  ), MMA refers to the sports environment so no you cant and Machida has admitted as much by getting a BJJ blackbelt in order to compete in MMA

I was referring to the question that came along later, when most of the clueless in this forum were not aware that the TCMAs and the TJMAs took into account the ground scenario.

Threads evovle sometimes.....

And as I stated before, I might cross train too, if I was entering a sports competition whose rules favored a certain way of fighting.

[Drake]

I can't think of a single good reason why you'd not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it's a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground.

And most thugs don't do the rock 'em sock 'em with you. They like to RASSLE!

[Frost]

I was referring to the question that came along later, when most of the clueless in this forum were not aware that the TCMAs and the TJMAs took into account the ground scenario.

Threads evovle sometimes.....

And as I stated before, I might cross train too, if I was entering a sports competition whose rules favored a certain way of fighting.

Nope actually you were on your usual TCMA has everything but none of you have studied the real deal/ you are all MMA knuckleheads rant without actually reading the thread or its context, show me where anyone said TCMA does not take into account eh ground in some form? what was said what that what they might have was very limited, largely made up/nicked from judo, not very useful and nothing as comprehensive as BJJ or Judo.

As Ronin said some arts might have techniques for the ground but they do not come near to BJJ/Judo and as such most Japanese masters also studied judo, on the ground you need to be able to move and have an idea of positional dominance and NO tcma has that

Now if you are ageing that your wing chun and SPM has a comprehensive ground system then please show it in action :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

]The question was not which is better. The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate. The answer, unknown to you and your "MMA is Best" friends, was a big UNKNOWN. [/B]

Well, now you know, the TCMAs and the Traditional Karate, take into account the ground scenario.



Again, that was not the question. Machida could have a black belt in Mongolian wrestling, and that would not change the fact that his karate takes into account the groundfighting scenario. End of story!!!




I am sure that his father will be eternally grateful for your knowledgable compliments for his karate.....




Hey, I might cross train if I was to enter sports tournaments, however, I don't need to cross train my kung fu for the street. So again, that is not the point.

The point is that karate and kung fu take into acccount the ground scenario. Hey, now that you and your MMA lot are here, then you might as well learn something about the TCMAs....:rolleyes:

LMAO, I spent three years training in Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate from my cousin, who trained under Master Masao Higa while stationed in the Air Force in Okinawa. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to train with Higa as well during his trip here to the states. But please, by all means, since I am so clueless now in regards to Okinawan Karate, please let me hear your expertise. Okinawan Karate does not teach groundfighting. It teaches tuite, which is joint minupilation and standing locks, much like I described before and you so convienently ignored.

The fact is you are a deluded tool who is ingorant of what the training is of many posters on this site so you throw out the "clueless" this, "clueless" that garbage. The fact is you are ignorant beyond words in regards to the knowledge of many here yet make vast assumptions about this, just as you did with Karate. Now, I ask again, what is your training and experience in Okinawan Karate that makes you able to verify it has groundfighting?

[Dragonzbane76]

The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate.

"covered" could mean a lot of things. "Covered" could be compared to someone throwing a bucket of paint on the wall, but we all know to get a master piece you have to spend time painting on the wall instead of throwing buckets at it.

yeah i guess if you want a generic hodpod of joint manipulation to takedowns to an armbar I guess some have it covered.

But if you want "real" ground work you could start talking of the changing of levels before the clinch, shots to the outside/inside, greco roman clinch work, to judo throws, to ground. from ground gaining position, through leverage, movement into verying position, shrimping, defense, keylocks, cross faces, nelson leverage, outside sweeps from bottom, rubber guard/butterfly guard, scramble uprights, sit turn outs, reversals, back spin to hooks, blah blah blah blah.,,,,, i could go on and on.

but we all know thats all involved in TCMA's.......:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

I can't think of a single good reason why you'd not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it's a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground.

And most thugs don't do the rock 'em sock 'em with you. They like to RASSLE!

if you Don't cross train in the weaker area's that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.

I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie...no strikes...just judo vs BJJ....and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i'm even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.

Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they've done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten

[sanjuro_ronin]

if you Don't cross train in the weaker area's that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.

I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie...no strikes...just judo vs BJJ....and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i'm even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.

Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they've done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten

Well said Frank.
The only tradition of the MA that we need to keep is the tradition of effectiveness.

[hskwarrior]

Well said Frank.
The only tradition of the MA that we need to keep is the tradition of effectiveness.

I'mma take that compliment too Sanjuro....i think that's the first time you said that to me LOL :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I'mma take that compliment too Sanjuro....i think that's the first time you said that to me LOL :D

It is a great thing when an instructor does not have a huge ego and can admit that the "holes" in their game can be filled by someone more knowledgable. In the end, the students are the ones who prosper from this. My instructor was like this, and I appreciated the knowledge and guidance he gave me in not only what he did, but what others could do for me that he could not. Respect to you for doing the same.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'mma take that compliment too Sanjuro....i think that's the first time you said that to me LOL :D

Really?
Well, it was long overdue then.

[pateticorecords]

Jujutsu is CMA anyway... isn't Chen Yuan Ping responsible for introducing it to the Japenese, or so legends says:p

[Dragonzbane76]

legends says

key words there. :)

[pateticorecords]

What about Bartitsu, is is still being taught out there?

[Dragonzbane76]

in the UK I think there is a school or 2... frost might know.

[lkfmdc]

so legends says:p

http://www.hotoffthepressonline.com/prodimg/man-legend.jpg

[pateticorecords]

key words there. :)

I wouldn't doubt it... historically the Japenese adopted, adapted, and transformed much of they learned from the Chinese through centuries of forceful cultural exchanges between the 2 nations.

Historically it is said that the Okinawans merged ch'uan fa into their fighting style TE... calling it To-de (Chinese hands) or Kara-te.


Due to nationalism in the 1700s in Japan, the character for "Chinese," was changed to one meaning "empty," so the new translation meant "empty hand."

[hskwarrior]

It is a great thing when an instructor does not have a huge ego and can admit that the "holes" in their game can be filled by someone more knowledgable. In the end, the students are the ones who prosper from this. My instructor was like this, and I appreciated the knowledge and guidance he gave me in not only what he did, but what others could do for me that he could not. Respect to you for doing the same.

Thank you brother. I will always feel CLF's stand up game is very good. Still the style isn't going to make you the better fighter, its what you put into your training. I'm "OK" at stopping certain take downs but compared to someone who ONLY works from the ground and you're on the ground now...and have NO effective answers from this position then as a fighter it would encourage me to fix my flaws and come back and try and try again till it finally works out.

Regardless, if my students began learning BJJ...they're learning the ground game. i would NEVER take my students to learn another hand system because i TOTALLY believe in the hands of CLF. But since my system doesn't offer up a ground game there's nothing wrong with supplimenting it with something that will benefit you all the way around. it would NOT change my CLF at all but will be a great compliment to each other.

Iron_Eagle_76: you're right. it's the students that beneift in the end. I think they'd even thank you for that. IMHO

[Dragonzbane76]

to many holes present in the "history" of MA's for any of us to state to many facts.

[hskwarrior]

Bartitsu

is that JuJitsu while taking the B.A.R.T. train? (Bay Area Rapid Transit). :p

[David Jamieson]

What about Bartitsu, is is still being taught out there?

:rolleyes:

only if you get a part in a sherlock holmes movie. lol

[pateticorecords]

is that JuJitsu while taking the B.A.R.T. train? (Bay Area Rapid Transit). :p

nah, it's a person who works at Starbucks that'll mess you up if you don't order correctly:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Historically it is said that the Okinawans merged ch'uan fa into their fighting style TE... calling it To-de (Chinese hands) or Kara-te.

Every MA culture adapts/adopts what works, why wouldn't they?
This doesn't mean that JJ came from China, only that JJ adopted certain elements of Wushu, just as the Te masters did.
Just like the SC masters adapted Judo :D
Its a cool circle jerk, lol !

Only someone who's ass did NOT depending on their MA being combat effective would NOT adopt something that has been proven to work over and over, perhaps better than what they were currently doing.
There is a lesson there people.

[pateticorecords]

:rolleyes:

only if you get a part in a sherlock holmes movie. lol

the “underground” fight sequence was nicely shot:)

[pateticorecords]

Every MA culture adapts/adopts what works, why wouldn't they?
This doesn't mean that JJ came from China, only that JJ adopted certain elements of Wushu, just as the Te masters did.
Just like the SC masters adapted Judo :D
Its a cool circle jerk, lol !

Only someone who's ass did NOT depending on their MA being combat effective would NOT adopt something that has been proven to work over and over, perhaps better than what they were currently doing.
There is a lesson there people.

I totally agree with you... it has always been my frame of thinking. My heart belongs to the beauty of CMA but my mind is open to learn from all other styles and incorporate what I find effective to my personal arsenal.

The way I see it is... you never know what the other guys knows so, might as well be prepared.

I have also gone to some medieval combat and ancient combat seminars (not martial arts related) that were pretty cool and learned a lot from in addition to military & police trainings... on that subject:

have any of you ever seen a South Korean National Police officer in action?

I was there for a training back in the 90s and those guys are some bada** mofos... like modern day ninjas with sub machine guns, hand guns, knives, explosives, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I totally agree with you... it has always been my frame of thinking. My heart belongs to the beauty of CMA but my mind is open to learn from all other styles and incorporate what I find effective to my personal arsenal.

The way I see it is... you never know what the other guys knows so, might as well be prepared.

I have also gone to some medieval combat and ancient combat seminars (not martial arts related) that were pretty cool and learned a lot from in addition to military & police trainings... on that subject:

have any of you ever seen a South Korean National Police officer in action?

I was there for a training back in the 90s and those guys are some bada** mofos... like modern day ninjas with sub machine guns, hand guns, knives, explosives, etc.

The elite units of the Japanese police are nothing to sneeze at too.

[David Jamieson]

the “underground” fight sequence was nicely shot:)

yeah, but Downey is a wing chun guy and the better part of that scene was lifted from wing chun techniques.

still, the art you are refering to did exist. I don't think it does anymore.
It was some racist chappy who went and learned some asian martial arts and then didn't give cred where cred was due.

much like the French and their Savatte which they lifted from asian martial arts as well.

or...american kempo. lol, although it does give some cred, it is misplaced a lot. lol

[Hardwork108]

You are being willfully ignorant here.
No, you are the one who is being willfully ignorant here!!!!


No it does not adequately address ground fighting in the sense of actually understanding control positions, slips and escapes, submission holds etc.

The word "adequately", is subjective. Besides, we were not discussing the "adequately" aspect of TCMA and TJMA techniques, but their existance!!!



There are no karate styles or kung fu styles that deal with this stuff.

Well, you have been told by people who know better, that they do train the ground scenario!


the closest thing to a grappling art in cma is shaui chiao and that is more of a throwing art (throw horn).
Thank you for mentioning that, because I used to think that SC was a type of food, before reading your enlightening sentence....


some guys lay claim to snake or dog boxing as covering it, but it doesn't at all when actually reviewed.

Many styles cover the ground scenario. Just because they do not do it to your specifications does not mean that there is not ground fighting in the TCMAs and TJMAs!!!


I have good experience in Okinawan karate having been a practitioner prior to other arts pursuits
The world, and this forum, is full of people who have "good experience":rolleyes: in karate and specially, kung fu.....LOL!



and I can tell you out and out that you are wrong about ground fighting in these as well.
Well, in this very thread two kung fu SIFUS have come out and disagreed with your position. They are EarthDragon and Mooyingmantis. Furthermore, I have told you that groundfighting is taught in my Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun. We have had Machida's quote about his Shotokan karate. The poster, Goju, who should obviously know, has agreed with me as well.

So, perhaps you should stop grasping at straws and admit that you were wrong, as there is nothing wrong with being wrong, specially in this forum, where most of the posters don't even practice kung fu, and would not know the genuine stuff, even if it fell on their heads.


Why do you insist on banging your head against the wall with this.
You are wrong, period. Listen and learn for a change. It will take you further in your understanding which is demonstrably inadequate so far.

It is entertaining, but somewhat sad, watching you vainly attempting to save the remenants of your credibility. Well, here is the easy way, just say that you were wrong, and that the TCMAs and the TJMAs do take into account the ground scenario, and then say the usual, "But BJJ is better", line. :)


as for the "thousands of styles" that's a crock really. There are very slight and minor variations across styles that in reality do not change what does and what doesn't work. Often these stylistic changes are minor and irrelevant to the efficacy of the art.
Well, if you look at them superficially, which most newbies do, then they might all look the same......


More often than not, this reference of hundreds of arts is thrown out as a cover to what people DON'T know as opposed to what they do. It's an obfuscation tactic to say something as stupid as "well there's thousands of them and you can't know them all so I guess I'm right".

You are trying to delibrately mislead and put words into my mouth. I remind you that there are sifus in this very thread that disagree with you!!!!


When in fact, all that is is an evasive weasel tactic. Do you really think there are huge differences in how someone is going to punch you, kick you, choke you, throw you?

You are babbling. The fact is that you said that the TCMAs and the TJMAs did not address the ground scenario. Then I and various others demonstrated to you, and others of the same opinion as yours, that you were utterly WRONG!

So, why are you complicating the matter? Just say sorry, and move along....!!!



the differences are a few, but really not that many.
Even if the differences are few, they are still more than you think!

[Hardwork108]

You are digging a hole even deeper than the one you were in before.

I still have to dig a lot more to reach you.


seriously, your ignorance is a shining beacon at this point man.

This from a man who thought that Japanese Jujitsu involved only ground fighting...LOL!

[Hardwork108]

I can't think of a single good reason why you'd not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it's a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground.
Hey, people can do what they want, but they cannot SAY what they want about the TCMAs or the TJMAs, when their point of reference is incomplete.

So, yes if one practices what one claims to be "kung fu", and sees it to be "incomplete", then sure fine, he can go ahead and cross train. The problem is that when he and his ilk, make generalized ignorant comments such as there is no ground game in the WHOLE WIDE WORLD OF TCMAs and TJMAs, and then go on to throw in more clueless comments such as Japanese Ju Jitsu is solely a ground fighting style...yes, I can just imagine those Samurai's rolling on the battle field ground for half an hour....:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

I still have to dig a lot more to reach you.

I can read your messages and understand your perspective quite clearly thank you, so if you are seeking to enlist others to your own peculiar brand of thoughtforms, I will decline your offer thanks.


This from a man who thought that Japanese Jujitsu involved only ground fighting...LOL!
I thought no such thing. You presume what I was writing in context to modern usage in sport where jj is alive and well, however it has many techniques that are not allowed due to current rulesets.

[Hardwork108]

Nope actually you were on your usual TCMA has everything but none of you have studied the real deal/ you are all MMA knuckleheads rant
Hey, if you got the meaning of what I was saying, then why do you always make me repeat myself?:confused:



show me where anyone said TCMA does not take into account eh ground in some form?

Read David Jamieson's posts, without laughing, if possible....



what was said what that what they might have was very limited, largely made up/nicked from judo, not very useful and nothing as comprehensive as BJJ or Judo.

Of course they did...LOL

Didn't you know, all the TCMAs originate from bjj......:rolleyes:


As Ronin said some arts might have techniques for the ground but they do not come near to BJJ/Judo and as such most Japanese masters also studied judo, on the ground you need to be able to move and have an idea of positional dominance and NO tcma has that

We can argue about which is more effective till the cows come home. That is not the question, the question was wether ground fighting techniques existed in the TCMAs and the TJMAs. The answer was YES!

Wether they come up to the standards of the arts practices by the various members of this forum is another question for another thread.



Now if you are ageing that your wing chun and SPM has a comprehensive ground system then please show it in action :)

I did not say anything about SPM. I mentioned Wing Chun (Mainland Chinese Lineage), and no there are no Youtube videos, to my knowledge, of that. So, I guess, if there are no videos then these things do not exist in the knucklehead universe.....LOL!

[Hardwork108]

I can read your messages and understand your perspective quite clearly thank you, so if you are seeking to enlist others to your own peculiar brand of thoughtforms, I will decline your offer thanks.

There are people here that agree with my "peculiar brand of thoughtforms", and two of them actual kung fu sifus, thank you very much.

Yes, the TCMAs and the TJMAs such as karate, take into account the ground scenario!



I thought no such thing. You presume what I was writing in context to modern usage in sport where jj is alive and well, however it has many techniques that are not allowed due to current rulesets.

I have yet to come along a MA rule set, including JJ, that does not allow standing up....LOL!

[David Jamieson]

There are people here that agree with my "peculiar brand of thoughtforms", and two of them actual kung fu sifus, thank you very much.

Yes, the TCMAs and the TJMAs such as karate, take into account the ground scenario! Are you going to be dropping names? :) also, no, they don't. I think you don't actually understand what groundfighting is. But by all means, please go to a club and ask to try.



I have yet to come along a MA rule set, including JJ, that does not allow standing up....LOL! I think you have yet to come across a ruleset at all. Google is your friend here. In your vast sea of knowledge regarding jujitsu, I am certain you will be able to make the apparent connections between what is done in jujitsu in it's fullness and totality, versus what you may do to anotehr person while engaged in a contest.

[Hardwork108]

LMAO, I spent three years training in Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate from my cousin, who trained under Master Masao Higa while stationed in the Air Force in Okinawa.
You do know that many of the Okinawan masters taught somewhat superficial stuff to the American soldiers who happened to join their dojos, don't you?

And again, the world is full of people who have "studied" karate. Doesn't your profile also say that you "studied" kung fu? I rest my case!!!....LOL!


I was fortunate to have the opportunity to train with Higa as well during his trip here to the states.
I hope that your take on the TMAs provided as much hilarious entertainment for Higa, as it has for me.....LOL!


But please, by all means, since I am so clueless now in regards to Okinawan Karate, please let me hear your expertise. Okinawan Karate does not teach groundfighting. It teaches tuite, which is joint minupilation and standing locks, much like I described before and you so convienently ignored.

Since I may be unworthy of your immense "knowledge" of Okinawan karate, then perhaps you should contact Gavin Mulholland the sixth dan Goju ryu sensei, who will certainly disagree with you!

Here is his website:

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html

Contact him about this and don't forget to inform him of your "expertise" in Okinawan karate.:rolleyes:


The fact is you are a deluded tool who is ingorant of what the training is of many posters on this site so you throw out the "clueless" this, "clueless" that garbage. The fact is you are ignorant beyond words in regards to the knowledge of many here yet make vast assumptions about this, just as you did with Karate.

So far the ASSUMPTIONS have been yours and your fellow kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, not forgetting the significant number of pseudo-kung fu-ists, as well. There are others here, including sifus (yes, you will meet one, one day), that have agreed with me. A Goju practitioner also agreed with me, and quoted a Shotokan practitioner, Machida, who by extension agreed with, as well. Furthermore, ground fighting is part of the curriculum of the lineage of Wing Chun that I have studied.

THEEEEEEEN, we have the "opposition" coming from pseudo kung fu-ists, and "I know a little bit of everything, because I am modern", lot of MMA-ists, who have infested these forums with their clueless takes on the TCMAs for years. So, I guess the smart money is not on you lot, is it now? LOL!



Now, I ask again, what is your training and experience in Okinawan Karate that makes you able to verify it has groundfighting?

My training experience as regards karate, is limited to shotokan. However, I have no training experience in Western Boxing either, but if anyone came here and claimed that Western Boxing had spinning back kicks, then they would get the same treatment from me as you are getting!;)

[Hardwork108]

Are you going to be dropping names? :) also, no, they don't. I think you don't actually understand what groundfighting is. But by all means, please go to a club and ask to try.
Ok, let's try again. Mas. Oyama, the founder of the Kyokushinkai style of karate, dedicated a whole chapter, in his book, "This is Karate", to ground fighting.

My lineage of Wing Chun (Mainland Chinese), teaches ground fighting towards the end of Chum Kiu.

We have had EarthDragon, an 8 Step Mantis sifu, who posted here telling us that his system teaches ground fighting.

Related to that, I also mentioned that I read a correspondence from a Northern Mantis (Seven Star, I believe, but not too sure), in Singapoor that stated that his school taught ground fighting as a part of their traditional curriculum.

We have had the poster Goju, who agreed about the existance of ground fighting in the great karate style of Goju Ryu. He even provided a video clip, as an example. This after I had mentioned that I personally visited a Goju Ryu dojo in London, where the sparring (contact, and similar to Kyokushin), included full ground fighting.

Yet, you are still beating your dead horse, this time with a few clueless MMA-ists supporting you, while babbling incoherently (as usual)!! LOL!



I think you have yet to come across a ruleset at all. Google is your friend here. In your vast sea of knowledge regarding jujitsu, I am certain you will be able to make the apparent connections between what is done in jujitsu in it's fullness and totality, versus what you may do to anotehr person while engaged in a contest.

Here is Japanese Jujitsu in sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQDF9rcb-M

I rest my case!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've heard of Gavin Mulholland.
I don't think he is affiliated with any Okinawan Goju organization though...
Could be wrong.
Gavin maybe a 6th dan and says their is ground fighting in Goju and he is right, Goju does address SOME ground work, but IF his goju has any submissions like arm bars and triangles and leg locks then he ( or his Shihan) added them because they are NOT part of the Jundokan curriculum or any other Okinawan Goju organization curriculum.
Besides, I don't think his ground game is that good, If I recall at least two of his fighters were subbed via ground work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, let's try again. Mas. Oyama, the founder of the Kyokushinkai style of karate, dedicated a whole chapter, in his book, "This is Karate", to ground fighting.

You brought this up before and I told you that was NOT ground fighting but fighting FROM the ground.
There is a reason that kyokushin guys are told to cross train in judo or the dojos' bring in judo guys when they can.
It doesn't address ground fighting in an all around and over-all sense.
Daidijuku is a prime example of kyokushin WITH ground work, samething with the Shidokan and a few other OFF-SHOOTS.

[Hardwork108]

I've heard of Gavin Mulholland.
I don't think he is affiliated with any Okinawan Goju organization though...
Could be wrong.
He was affiliated to an organization, when I visited his dojo. However, I am not sure now.


Gavin maybe a 6th dan and says their is ground fighting in Goju and he is right, Goju does address SOME ground work, but IF his goju has any submissions like arm bars and triangles and leg locks then he ( or his Shihan) added them because they are NOT part of the Jundokan curriculum or any other Okinawan Goju organization curriculum.

I would not know about that because I have not studied nor researched all of the Goju lineages. All I can say that he indicated that this was part of their traditional ground training.

Actually, I liked his school and his school's hands on approach towards combat.



Besides, I don't think his ground game is that good, If I recall at least two of his fighters were subbed via ground work.

Well, I am not going there, as that is not the point I am making. People win and loose all the time. I guess one has to see given fighters win or loose a dozen times before one gets an indication of wether what the school teaches is good or bad.

FWIW, I believe that if you had visited his school, then you would have been impressed by their training approach.

[Hardwork108]

You brought this up before and I told you that was NOT ground fighting but fighting FROM the ground.
But the chapter has ground fighting when both parties are on the ground, as opposed to, one fighting the other from the ground.

Again, my point is that it exists in Kyokushinkai, that is the style addresses this scenario. Adding judo to it does make sense in this case.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You do know that many of the Okinawan masters taught somewhat superficial stuff to the American soldiers who happened to join their dojos, don't you?

And again, the world is full of people who have "studied" karate. Doesn't your profile also say that you "studied" kung fu? I rest my case!!!....LOL!


I hope that your take on the TMAs provided as much hilarious entertainment for Higa, as it has for me.....LOL!



Since I may be unworthy of your immense "knowledge" of Okinawan karate, then perhaps you should contact Gavin Mulholland the sixth dan Goju ryu sensei, who will certainly disagree with you!

Here is his website:

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html

Contact him about this and don't forget to inform him of your "expertise" in Okinawan karate.:rolleyes:



So far the ASSUMPTIONS have been yours and your fellow kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, not forgetting the significant number of pseudo-kung fu-ists, as well. There are others here, including sifus (yes, you will meet one, one day), that have agreed with me. A Goju practitioner also agreed with me, and quoted a Shotokan practitioner, Machida, who by extension agreed with, as well. Furthermore, ground fighting is part of the curriculum of the lineage of Wing Chun that I have studied.

THEEEEEEEN, we have the "opposition" coming from pseudo kung fu-ists, and "I know a little bit of everything, because I am modern", lot of MMA-ists, who have infested these forums with their clueless takes on the TCMAs for years. So, I guess the smart money is not on you lot, is it now? LOL!




My training experience as regards karate, is limited to shotokan. However, I have no training experience in Western Boxing either, but if anyone came here and claimed that Western Boxing had spinning back kicks, then they would get the same treatment from me as you are getting!;)

ROTFLMAO,,,,wow, dude, you come straight out of a comic book, yes, that was a joke. No where in your rambling, incoherent idiocy did you provide an inkling of proof that Karate had groundfighting. Nowhere. Because you claim one Goju-Ryu Sensei does groundfighting you know does not mean the system as a whole does, probably because like most styles of Karate, the groundfighting as you call it comes from either tuite, which I explained and for the fourth time you ignored, and because many Karate styles cross trained in Judo.

Cross training in Judo is not the same as Karate having it's own groundfighting techniques. But of course, the same old argument from you, Okinawans taught crap to soldiers, blah, blah, blah, for someone who has limited experience in Shotokan, you sure know a lot about Karate.:rolleyes:

It is quite obvious you know nothing of what ground fighting entails, so please, limit your posts to thing like chain punching and deadly Wing Chun ground fighting and other such laughable things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He was affiliated to an organization, when I visited his dojo. However, I am not sure now.



I would not know about that because I have not studied nor researched all of the Goju lineages. All I can say that he indicated that this was part of their traditional ground training.

Actually, I liked his school and his school's hands on approach towards combat.




Well, I am not going there, as that is not the point I am making. People win and loose all the time. I guess one has to see given fighters win or loose a dozen times before one gets an indication of wether what the school teaches is good or bad.

FWIW, I believe that if you had visited his school, then you would have been impressed by their training approach.

Their training approach sounds excellent.
I have always said that there is NO NEED to change your MA, just adapt it to what it will be facing and to do that, you train VS those very things.
You learn what works, what needs to be modified, what needs to be added and that is what it seems they have done.
How they market it or package it is irrelevant.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But the chapter has ground fighting when both parties are on the ground, as opposed to, one fighting the other from the ground.

Again, my point is that it exists in Kyokushinkai, that is the style addresses this scenario. Adding judo to it does make sense in this case.

Yes, but it was a case of using the strikes of kyokushin WHILE on the ground, something that was typical of striking arts that had not been exposed as much as they should have to grappling systems.
Oyama later corrected that.

[pateticorecords]

I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

I have seen the same done with American Kenpo techniques.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

I have seen the same done with American Kenpo techniques.:)

That is typical of striking arts that don't understand the dynamics and principles of ground work.
And no, they don't work.
:D

[hskwarrior]

I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

CLF's theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs...that's still being tried out. But CLF has not enough answers to alot of ground stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

CLF's theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs...that's still being tried out. But CLF has not enough answers to alot of ground stuff.

You CAN adapt the striking of any stand up art to the ground, but you need to apply it to ground fighting principles and for that, you need a core in solid ground work of ALL types.

[Knifefighter]

CLF's theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs....

That's as much nonsense as thinking groundwork can be applied while standing.

[MightyB]

to get back on target. I think the consensus is "No". You can't make a "purely" TCMA mixed martial art that would work in today's culture and combat environment because it doesn't have a working ground game.

That being said... what elements from BJJ must be incorporated and synthesized with TCMA Chin Na to make a Chinese-ized ground fighting game?

[sanjuro_ronin]

to get back on target. I think the consensus is "No". You can't make a "purely" TCMA mixed martial art that would work in today's culture and combat environment because it doesn't have a working ground game.

That being said... what elements from BJJ must be incorporated and synthesized with TCMA Chin Na to make a Chinese-ized ground fighting game?

If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
What I mean is, if you take what you need from BJJ, which is far superiour on the ground than any chin-na around, you would not need ANY chin-na for the ground, would you?
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn't address, but beyond that...why?

[hskwarrior]

That's as much nonsense as thinking groundwork can be applied while standing.

hey, i understand that :D (these other knuckle heads.....IDK about ;) )

[hskwarrior]

Stand up systems will always have their stand up game regardless if they learn BJJ, JUDO, WRESTLING, or any ground fighting system. Learning something else to compliment the lacking areas of your system is NOT a bad thing. for example, BJJ will not have any effect on how i will apply my CLF. if we go to the ground then i would rely on my BJJ until we got back on our feet.

I disagree with learning multiple martial art stand up systems without truly understanding the first one your began studying. but the other side of day is night and CLF = Daylight while Ground Game = Night . it would be a good balance.

[MightyB]

If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
What I mean is, if you take what you need from BJJ, which is far superiour on the ground than any chin-na around, you would not need ANY chin-na for the ground, would you?
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn't address, but beyond that...why?

that's what I meant... kind've. Hey - I like BJJ and find it to be a fascinating art all by itself but I think you answered my question:
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn't address, but beyond that...why?

Personally I think all real martial artists need to go to a qualified BJJ instructor and get training up to the blue belt level. IMO after Blue - it's mostly competition BJJ stuff and if that's not your thing, then you have enough BJJ.

[goju]

All of you shut up and look at this

[YouKnowWho]

If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
There are still many joing locking area that BJJ does not cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKa1Mk6cIQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are still some joing locking that BBJ does not cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKa1Mk6cIQ

They have that one...so does Judo ( from a kneeling position though).

[goju]

if youre going to bother with standing locking than i would go with china na because quite frankly from my personal experience the Gjj self defense locks only work if you are incredibly stiff and arthritic:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's what I meant... kind've. Hey - I like BJJ and find it to be a fascinating art all by itself but I think you answered my question:

Personally I think all real martial artists need to go to a qualified BJJ instructor and get training up to the blue belt level. IMO after Blue - it's mostly competition BJJ stuff and if that's not your thing, then you have enough BJJ.

Maybe purple, depending on the school.
If you are introduced to BJJ in a MMA context from the get go, 2 years is probably enough for most MA to get a solid grasp of ground work in a MMA context and be able to apply it and adapt it to their core system.

[MightyB]

All of you shut up and look at this

I'm transfixed... I cannot look away... it's like some form of alien mind control. I'm also craving donuts.... mmmmm donuts.

[Knifefighter]

There are still some joing locking that BBJ does not cover.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9972/chang1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKa1Mk6cIQ

LOL... BJJ will basically incorporate anything that works. The reason you don't see that in BJJ is because there are several techniques from there that are much more effective.

[goju]

I'm transfixed... I cannot look away... it's like some form of alien mind control. I'm also craving donuts.... mmmmm donuts.


ITS LIE BEAR BUTS ITS A MAN AND YET A PIG!

HOW DO THEY DO IT MAN:eek:

[Knifefighter]

If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
What I mean is, if you take what you need from BJJ, which is far superiour on the ground than any chin-na around, you would not need ANY chin-na for the ground, would you?
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn't address, but beyond that...why?

Muscle tearing? Bone displacing? Come on dude.

[MightyB]

Maybe purple, depending on the school.
If you are introduced to BJJ in a MMA context from the get go, 2 years is probably enough for most MA to get a solid grasp of ground work in a MMA context and be able to apply it and adapt it to their core system.

there's definitely a world of difference between a purple and a blue. Heck - most people are in for life once they get to blue anyway. Something about being able to totally dominate people using a martial art without any of that unrealistic theory crap seems to hook 'em.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Muscle tearing? Bone displacing? Come on dude.

Hey, cut the brother some slack !
It's not my fault that you guys don't get sarcasam !!

I knew a guy, tiger claw dude, he could bend a wrench, roll up a frying pan, do some serious crap with his grip and guess what? HE could make that **** work for him.
Could I? Nope.
Could you? Nope.
Could 99& of the people here? Nope.
But he could and that is where some of these "tales" come from, the genetic freaks that make them famous.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there's definitely a world of difference between a purple and a blue. Heck - most people are in for life once they get to blue anyway. Something about being able to totally dominate people using a martial art without any of that unrealistic theory crap seems to hook 'em.

Yeah, it can be very addicting, beating people without having to bruise your little girl hands !
:p

[MightyB]

Yeah, it can be very addicting, beating people without having to bruise your little girl hands !
:p

True dat. Plus I don't like getting hit anymore. I'm getting old man... gett'n old.

[goju]

ive broken my nose twice and im too pretty to get it broken any more so grappling has become more appealing to me

ill still make fun of it though:D

[YouKnowWho]

LOL... BJJ will basically incorporate anything that works. The reason you don't see that in BJJ is because there are several techniques from there that are much more effective.
Please notice that the person who applied the TCMA "knee hold" still remained his own mobility and not fully committed himself on the ground. That means he could take of anytime he wanted to.

How about this one? Easy to use with high successful rate in bar fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

[Knifefighter]

How about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

Yeah, BJJ has that as part of the standup "self-defense". Like all two on one's where you stand directly in front of your opponent and tie up both of your own hands while leaving one of his free to smash you in the face, it's kind of a dumb move.

BJJ's standing "self-defense" techs suffer the same disconnect as many of the TMAs... they never actually practice them for real. Kind of amazing that an art that is so much about being full on application, completely disconnects from that in the "self-defense" realm.

[YouKnowWho]

BJJ's standing "self-defense" techs suffer the same disconnect as many of the TMAs...
It will still work if your opponent is "stupid" enough to push you.

[Knifefighter]

It will work if your opponent is stupid enough to push you.

No it won't, because while you are grabbing his finger (and this is a big if in being able to do that under dynamic conditions where an opponent is actually pushing) he is doing one of two things- punching you in the face while you are grabbing the finger, or using his other hand to take away your 2 on 1 advantage.

[YouKnowWho]

If you can drop your opponent by that move, you don't have to worry about his other hand. It depends on who is faster and more experienced. Don't always assume your opponent is BS, you can be BMF too.

[Knifefighter]

If you can drop your opponent by that move, you don't have to worry about his other hand. It depends on who is faster and more experienced.


There's nothing wrong with finger breaks and they can be effective. But you sure don't do them the way that was shown on that clip. Pretty stupid to set yourself up to get punched in the face if you are not fast enough.

[hskwarrior]

I do have a question about these finger breaks if you guys care to share. i've never used it so i can't say for sure if it works or the theory behind it.

I was told that the one finger you DO want to break is the ring finger. It is the one finger if you lay your hand flat on a table and lifted each one by one you'd notice that the ring finger is the hardest to lift. i was told that somehow the whole arm would be affected by this break.

any truth to it?

[taai gihk yahn]

if you Don't cross train in the weaker area's that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.

I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie...no strikes...just judo vs BJJ....and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i'm even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.

Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they've done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten

how sad - yet another supposed "traditionalist" falls by the wayside to go study an irrelevant system that does not conform to TCMA principles, instead of realizing that his TCMA actually contains everything needed to address ground fighting scenarios effectively and as well as, if not better than any other ground fighting based system out there; too bad Frank, I guess that you just didn't study your art deeply enough, or perhaps your teacher held back information because of your poor moral character...

[YouKnowWho]

I can't say for sure if it works or the theory behind it.
I usually don't like to say a technique work or not. If you train, it may work. If you don't, it won't. It's just as simple as that.

The best way is to get different training partners, you try this on your different opponent 100 times each and get the "success-failure" ratio and draw conclusion all by yourself. The "finger break" and "finger split" can be effective if you have "strong intention" to break your opponent's finger. During those experiment, you can figure out what will be your best body angle so it will be harder for your opponent to hit you.

[Knifefighter]

I do have a question about these finger breaks if you guys care to share. i've never used it so i can't say for sure if it works or the theory behind it.

I was told that the one finger you DO want to break is the ring finger. It is the one finger if you lay your hand flat on a table and lifted each one by one you'd notice that the ring finger is the hardest to lift. i was told that somehow the whole arm would be affected by this break.

any truth to it?

Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).

1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.
2. If you are extended out or off to an angle so that the opponent cannot strike, grab two fingers, one in each hand (the two opposite end fingers are most likely in the best position to be grabbed). Pull them in opposite directions and toward the opponent.
3. Grabbing someone's finger(s) is very low percentage in a dynamic situation unless you already have a superior control position.

[Yum Cha]

The problem is if you attack the centre of gravity without knowledge of hip throws, body lock throws, level changes and clinch work you are in for a nasty surprise, now if you have that knowledge then its not a problem, I’m not sure tai chi outside of the chen village has it, certainly not in the yang I have seen, and the bit of bak mei and dragon I did didn’t have it either, your expertise in bakmei is greater than mine, so is it in there or are you having to go outside the art to work against them? That’s not an bad thing its great you are thinking like this I just wondered where you are working on it and with whom?

Yes exactly, this is the training I'm beginning to focus on, starting with some push hands style, but our rules include putting someone down. Add striking to that and you've got pretty close to essential Pak Mei. I'm salting the training with some quick and straight-forward subs, like guillotine from guard, and escape, grabbing a RNC on someone that turns to escape. Our basic fighting stance is low with arms forward, not to different to a basic wrestling stance, but with the arms a little more closed...
And I don't know if you know this, but good Pak Mei can pull as hard as it can push.
Hey, early days, just.


Firstly in mount you are in a control position so I’m not too sure how this matches up with your original point of going straight for a sub rather than a control position? But that aside the problem is how effective is the move and how likely is it to be pulled off?

My experience tells me that to break a limb you have to control it, I haven’t seen many grab and hit breaks pulled off successfully, I have seen loads of arm bars pulled off and a lot of breaks in comps if people don’t tap in time so I go with what I know works. And although it might take longer to perform (I say might because I have been arm locked way to quickly by guys for my liking) the control you have is constant so you don’t need the split second to pull it off

Also note that in MMA (which was originally asked about) hitting straight on the joint is illegal in most comps (before a certain person, not you, starts to argue this is because its too dangerous for sports please note the commissions banned a lot of things out of ignorance not because they are too dangerous and that in the first MMA matches and still in vale tudo these things are legal but you never saw them pulled off)

Now if we are talking pure self defence not comps I would simply keep hitting him and I wouldn’t be in mount but knee on stomach…..I have seen guys finish fights with broken limbs but once you knock them out they tend to go limp :)

What can I say, its what we train. It has worked on the street. I don't think of it as a sub, its what we call a finish.

One of my concerns these days is not sharing blood through busted knuckles.

[hskwarrior]

On the other hand, I've seen lots of kids submitted by an ear pull from their mothers.

The ear pull is not as effective without that SICILIAN passion man...moms would snatch up my ear faster than Kwai Chang Caine did that pebble bro.

[goju]

you can quickly elbow someone from that position if they are using their two hands against your one handed shove as my drawing shows

[Drake]

Refusal to acknowledge the importance of ground fighting is refusal to accept that the kick, punch, or joint lock may fail. Yet, with all of the CLF training I've done, there's always a follow up in the first couple of hits fail. Why not think about what to do if someone successfully brings the fight to the ground? Are you just going to lay there like a defeated puppy, because you have nothing in your toolkit?

Never get yourself into such a training mindset where a particular scenario leaves you with no other option but to die.

[hskwarrior]

Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).

1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.
2. If you are extended out or off to an angle so that the opponent cannot strike, grab two fingers, one in each hand (the two opposite end fingers are most likely in the best position to be grabbed). Pull them in opposite directions and toward the opponent.
3. Grabbing someone's finger(s) is very low percentage in a dynamic situation unless you already have a superior control position.
Reply With Quote

Right on!:D

[YouKnowWho]

1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.

You will be safe if you can use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.

[YouKnowWho]

you can quickly elbow someone from that position if they are using their two hands against your one handed shove as my drawing shows

You should never control your opponent's wrist without control his elbow at the same time. If your right hand control your opponent's right wrist, and your left hand control his right elbow. If you pull his right arm to your right, at the same time if you move toward your left, you can use his leading right arm to jam his back arm. This way, he won't be able to punch/elbow you with his left arm.

[taai gihk yahn]

You will be safe if you can use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.

but then he'll just go with his body in the direction of the jam, expose his back to instant paralysis and use one of those useless spinning backfists...

[Yum Cha]

In this case there's nothing to "resist."

Here's an example of something like what I'm talking about in a competitive environment, done with speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

Here's another demo with fingerless gloves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0

Now these are a little different than what I'm talking about which is to lead the punch and then directly strike the joint.

EO

What I especially liked about the first vid was the way the guy just 'twitched' and the elbow was done.

[YouKnowWho]

but then he'll just go with his body in the direction of the jam, expose his back to instant paralysis and use one of those useless spinning backfists...
When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply "head lock" on him. That 1/10 second "expose his back" should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.

[taai gihk yahn]

When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply "head lock" on him. That 1/10 second "expose his back" should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.

depends how he spins - whether he stays in the same spot or goes off his line so that he is no longer directly in your "workspace"

[hskwarrior]

When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply "head lock" on him. That 1/10 second "expose his back" should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.
Reply With Quote

CLF doesn't just LAUNCH the spinning backfist. we do train to time it to our opponents strike or during his recoil. i agree just doing a spinning backfist by itself will totally give up the back. i also teach my students to be very stingy if not outright greedy with your back....try to never give it up.

[Knifefighter]

You should never control your opponent's wrist without control his elbow at the same time. If your right hand control your opponent's right wrist, and your left hand control his right elbow. If you pull his right arm to your right, at the same time if you move toward your left, you can use his leading right arm to jam his back arm. This way, he won't be able to punch/elbow you with his left arm.

Then why did you show the clip that you said would work when there was no elbow control?

[Yum Cha]

Hey, cut the brother some slack !
It's not my fault that you guys don't get sarcasam !!

I knew a guy, tiger claw dude, he could bend a wrench, roll up a frying pan, do some serious crap with his grip and guess what? HE could make that **** work for him.
Could I? Nope.
Could you? Nope.
Could 99& of the people here? Nope.
But he could and that is where some of these "tales" come from, the genetic freaks that make them famous.

One of my guys is a waterproofer. He works a brush with heavy tar day in, day out. Fingertip push ups on concrete, the right way, and he's got a grip you can't break. I think it takes that kind of lifestyle that goes beyond training to achieve those kinds of skills.

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

This one is very smiliar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fELGophVEc4

[Drake]

The part with the elbow looks super duper exposed for a grappler to do his worst.

[Drake]

But yeah, I agree with the rest. That elbow looks like a TERRIBLE idea.

[Yum Cha]

... tie up both of your own hands while leaving one of his free to smash you in the face.


Basic, but neglected wisdom. In fact, you try to get your opponent to use both hands to defend one for expressly the purpose of working the advantage.

[Drake]

The bad logic here is that nobody asks what to do if it doesn't work, and now you have your back exposed.

[Knifefighter]

The bad logic here is that nobody asks what to do if it doesn't work, and now you have your back exposed.

Learn to defend the back.

[Yum Cha]

Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).

1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.
2. If you are extended out or off to an angle so that the opponent cannot strike, grab two fingers, one in each hand (the two opposite end fingers are most likely in the best position to be grabbed). Pull them in opposite directions and toward the opponent.
3. Grabbing someone's finger(s) is very low percentage in a dynamic situation unless you already have a superior control position.

That's way nastier than a finger break or dislocation. That will rip the hand open.

[YouKnowWho]

Then why did you show the clip that you said would work when there was no elbow control?

If you think your opponent is better than you, you move into his side door, so you can use his leading arm to jam his back arm, and you only have to deal with one of his arms instead of two. If you think you are better than your opponent (faster, stronger, more experience, ...), you move into his front door. Even if you take the risk to deal with both of his arms, but you have more techniques that you can apply, and also you have more open area to attack. MA has no absolute right or wrong but "trade off".

[YouKnowWho]

Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).

1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.
2. If you are extended out or off to an angle so that the opponent cannot strike, grab two fingers, one in each hand (the two opposite end fingers are most likely in the best position to be grabbed). Pull them in opposite directions and toward the opponent.
3. Grabbing someone's finger(s) is very low percentage in a dynamic situation unless you already have a superior control position.

The "finger split" and "finger break" are the 2 major joint locking technique that can be applied on the finger joint. It will be hard to pull out when you have boxing gloves on and hop around.

Sometime you can apply joint lock when you shake hand with your opponent. IMO, joint locking is always used by surprise.

[Knifefighter]

The "finger split" and "finger break" are the 2 major joint locking technique that can be applied on the finger joint. It will be useless when you have boxing gloves on and that's for sure.

Actually, having the opponent wearing boxing gloves is the best way to practice finger breaks full force. Since you can't isolate the finger to break it and injure your opponent, you can grab the boxing glove as if you were grabbing fingers. If you can grab and manipulate the glove without getting smashed or countered as your opponent is resisting and hitting you full contact, there's a pretty good chance you would be able to pull off a finger grab. If your opponent is halfway skilled and/or athletic, you'll find it's pretty hard to maintain the control you need for the "finger" manipulation.

[Knifefighter]

Sometime you can apply joint lock when you shake hand with your opponent. IMO, joint locking is always used by surprise.

It's also a nice way to really **** someone off who wasn't ****ed off before.

[Lucas]

at what point would you even attempt a finger break instead of something more solid?

[Knifefighter]

at what point would you even attempt a finger break instead of something more solid?

During hand fighting for position.

[Lucas]

ahh gotcha

[YouKnowWho]

These 2 clips are very similiar.

TCMA way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjMvYa_ecSo

MMA way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncANIwIvO4k&feature=fvw

[Knifefighter]

These 2 clips are very similiar.

TCMA way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjMvYa_ecSo

MMA way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncANIwIvO4k&feature=fvw

LOL... They are not similar at all.

The "TCMA way" misses the most realistic, high percentage part of the whole thing.

and good luck with the low percentage finish on both of those versions.

[Drake]

I'm not seeing the similarity. And in the TCMA one, the opponent looks dead.

[YouKnowWho]

I'll look dead too when someone sits on my shoulder.

[Hardwork108]

how sad - yet another supposed "traditionalist" falls by the wayside to go study an irrelevant system that does not conform to TCMA principles, instead of realizing that his TCMA actually contains everything needed to address ground fighting scenarios effectively and as well as, if not better than any other ground fighting based system out there; too bad Frank, I guess that you just didn't study your art deeply enough, or perhaps your teacher held back information because of your poor moral character...

You took those words right out of my mouth.:D

[Hardwork108]

Refusal to acknowledge the importance of ground fighting is refusal to accept that the kick, punch, or joint lock may fail. Yet, with all of the CLF training I've done, there's always a follow up in the first couple of hits fail. Why not think about what to do if someone successfully brings the fight to the ground? Are you just going to lay there like a defeated puppy, because you have nothing in your toolkit?

I guess that is why some kung fu (and karate) styles address ground fighting.:D

[Hardwork108]

When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply "head lock" on him. That 1/10 second "expose his back" should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.

Us Chow Gar and Wing Chun guys know that too.;):)

[Hardwork108]

One of my guys is a waterproofer. He works a brush with heavy tar day in, day out. Fingertip push ups on concrete, the right way, and he's got a grip you can't break. I think it takes that kind of lifestyle that goes beyond training to achieve those kinds of skills.

Fanatical training in a given aspect of kung fu can give you the right results. Unfortunately, nowadays people rarely do that, in favor of training fanatically for sports competitions to perhaps win medals....

[taai gihk yahn]

You took those words right out of my mouth.:D

trying to keep you from choking on them...

[Hardwork108]

trying to keep you from choking on them...

Thank you, it seems that repetition is the order of the day in this forum.....LOL!

[taai gihk yahn]

Us Chow Gar and Wing Chun guys know that too.;):)

well, someone should tell the bagua people, because they seem to have no problem doing it...

[taai gihk yahn]

Thank you, it seems that repetition is the order of the day in this forum.....LOL!

are you the pot or the kettle today?

[Hardwork108]

Hey, cut the brother some slack !
It's not my fault that you guys don't get sarcasam !!

I knew a guy, tiger claw dude, he could bend a wrench, roll up a frying pan, do some serious crap with his grip and guess what? HE could make that **** work for him.
Could I? Nope.
Could you? Nope.
Could 99& of the people here? Nope.
But he could and that is where some of these "tales" come from, the genetic freaks that make them famous.

I think that in some cases it may be a genetic freak, in others it may be focused training in a given aspect of a given TCMA.

Imagine if you had spent all your MA career training various styles of Tiger Claw, together with their Iron Skills, and under genuine Tiger masters, and with the same intensity and dedication that you trained your other MAs. I bet that you would have now had a viscious claw and penetrative power (no jokes please:D)!

[Hardwork108]

well, someone should tell the bagua people, because they seem to have no problem doing it...

Different, but valid, "strokes".....;)

[Hardwork108]

are you the pot or the kettle today?

I am the man who makes the tea.;)

[bawang]

i am a gay

wow nice man

[hskwarrior]

LMAO......wow

[Hardwork108]

I am obsessed with gay themes, just like my MMA brothers in this forum. Long live the art of man-grappling!!!

Take it easy Dave.......:eek:

[bawang]

I am obsessed with gay themes, just like my MMA brothers in this forum. Long live man-grappling.