This looks terrible

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wq9KwBvQQ

LOL "doesn't believe in weight training."

Fukcing gold.

[YouKnowWho]

I have always wondered for those who does not believe in weight training. What if someone challenges you in "arm wrestling" contest? Do you refuse the challenge? If you accept the challenge then will your combat skill be able to help you?

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wq9KwBvQQ

LOL "doesn't believe in weight training."

Fukcing gold.

I don't want to start a polemic, but there are kung fu methodologies that do not use weight training, as we know it, for strength and power building. They will instead use development forms and other resistance training for the same purpose.

Some of these methodologies are not well known, others are not discussed with "outsiders", hence there is a lot of misunderstandings about them.:)

[YouKnowWho]

Old Chinese saying said, "一力勝十会(Yi Li Sheng Shi Hui) - strength can defeat 10 best techniques."

[MasterKiller]

I don't do much weight training. A little kettlebell work, but mostly I work my core in class by picking people up and throwing them.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't do much weight training. A little kettlebell work, but mostly I work my core in class by picking people up and throwing them.
I don't eat much seafood. A little bit fish, but mostly I eat shrimp, lobster, and king crab legs.

[TenTigers]

the guy in the video is another wu-shu guy who is trying to teach what he has never been trained in-fighting.
Sorry to say, sometimes people will garner alot of students simply because he plays the Asian card. Worse still, in my area, there's a guy who isn't even Asian, he's Cuban, but has sort of Asian features, so he grows a Fu Manchu and calls himself Sifu Chang.
He teaches wu-shu and calls it Choy Li Fut.
He has many students.
..well, up until he was busted for having a brothel in his school,
but that's another story..

[SPJ]

Old Chinese saying said, "一力勝十会(Yi Li Sheng Shi Hui) - strength can defeat 10 best techniques."

yes. weight lifting, holding and manuever training are all important.

tied weights to your forearm, or ankle or rings

when you are stronger, add more lead or metal rings

weight related training is not limited to lifting only.

:)

[SPJ]

I don't eat much seafood. A little bit fish, but mostly I eat shrimp, lobster, and king crab legs.

salmon or fish is better. they have good cholesterol from fish oil.

shrimp, lobster and crab on the other hand----

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU_HKb74FAY

TRADITIONAL CHINESE WEIGHT LIFTING 40-120 POUNDS from my home province

[EarthDragon]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.

i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts

[mickey]

Greetings,

What I liked about the video:

The little boy @:30 doing his thing.


mickey

[TenTigers]

salmon or fish is better. they have good cholesterol from fish oil.

shrimp, lobster and crab on the other hand----
salmon or fish? LOL
yes, Salmon is highest in omega-3 fatty acids. Other cold water fatty fish are great sources of this as well.
shellfish also are high in protien, sterols, zinc,copper and iron.

[bawang]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.

i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts

look at the traditional weight lifting video i posted. theyre from my home province.

the traditional weight lifting competition was held at my home city.

[TenTigers]

Greetings,

What I liked about the video:

The little boy @:30 doing his thing.


mickey
wow, we see different things. I saw a kid trying to do a form that was way beyond his capabilities. He needs to learn the basics before learning the form. That attempted tornado kick was awful. He should learn the kick properly first, before even starting the form. With this kind of training, he will only get worse.

[EarthDragon]

I did and enjoyed it bawang, the speaking was a little to fast for me to completly undestand it, but this is my point you can be very strong and not look like lou ferigno.. LOL OK showing my age here, but anyways its about core strength as bawang's video showed us, those guys throw those blocks like thier styrofoam and they did have big muslces actually there arms very pretty thin. but let one of them grab you

[bawang]

what man? those people were HUGE. they just dont have muscle definition because they dont body build.

i think you mean these people have small biceps. big bicep is fake muscle it doesnt do anything. if u wanna look small just dont do bicep curls.


more REAL stone locks not thoese tiny shoebox twirling PUSIES
http://www.letv.com/ptv/vplay/376475



http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/71DShVxPRxU/

lightest: 30 pounds
heaviest: 145 pounds

[mickey]

Hi TenTigers,

You are absolutely correct about his foundation. I enjoyed how he threw himself into it. I will be more specific next time. :)


mickey

[Knifefighter]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.

i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts


Um... no.

Force is produced by muscle fibers. Tendons are what connects muscle to bone. While you can make tendons stronger as part of a muscle strengthening program, they have nothing to do with actual force production.

There is no such thing as tendon strength, other than the ability to make them able to be more resistant to tearing.

[YouKnowWho]

the water bottles used at the water cooler drinking machine. The new ones come with handles. You can also fill a milk jug with cement.

I had tried that before. If you miss one catch, and it falls down on the ground. it will be cracked.


for holding shoes
Those shoes is the weight training.


I picking people up and throwing them.
MasterKiller throws people around. That's also weight training.

[EarthDragon]

YKW

Taiji guys use long pole to train their "body unification" and that's weight training to me.
yes sorry should have been more specific and said body building.
I actually got into body sculpting, crazy strict diet, no steriods use, aminos only, lifting daily, lighter weight 12-14reps 1 body part a per day, 4-5 excersizes per muscle, which cuts the heck out of you instead of bulk. starting to see individual lines in my shoulders quates an forearms

[Yum Cha]

This is the way I understand it.

Tendon strength is as mentioned, about strengthening the tendons, this gives you more and safer hyperextension, and if you train that method, loose speed too.

Power is mass by speed.... Hyperextension gets you penetration.

Its still the muscle that triggers and drives the movement, but the 'chain' of power delivery, muscle, tendon and bone have a stronger weak link.

When the old folk chopped up a Tiger, they were amazed that there was so little muscle, and so much tendon for such a fierce powerful creature. Thus, this talk about "tendon power" and the "Tiger" styles.

Its still basic physiology, but at the same time, a unique take on training, and not a common one.

[EarthDragon]

Tendons have been traditionally considered to simply be a mechanism by which muscles connect to bone, functioning simply to transmit forces. However, over the past two decades, much research focused on the elastic properties of tendons and their ability to function as springs. This allows tendons to passively modulate forces during locomotion, providing additional stability with no active work. It also allows tendons to store and recover energy at high efficiency. For example, during a human stride, the Achilles tendon stretches as the ankle joint dorsiflexes. During the last portion of the stride, as the foot plantar-flexes (pointing the toes down), the stored elastic energy is released. Furthermore, because the tendon stretches, the muscle is able to function with less or even no change in length, allowing the muscle to generate greater force.

The mechanical properties of the tendon are dependent on the collagen fiber diameter and orientation. The collagen fibrils are parallel to each other and closely packed, but show a wave-like appearance due to planar undulations, or crimps, on a scale of several micrometers.[13] In tendons, the collagen I fibres have some flexibility due to the absence of hydroxyproline and proline residues at specific locations in the amino acid sequence, which allows the formation of other conformations such as bends or internal loops in the triple helix and results in the development of crimps.[14] The crimps in the collagen fibrils allow the tendons to have some flexibility as well as a low compressive stiffness. In addition, because the tendon is a multi-stranded structure made up of many partially independent fibrils and fascicles, it does not behave as a single rod, and this property also contributes to its flexibility.[15]

The proteoglycan components of tendons also are important to the mechanical properties. While the collagen fibrils allow tendons to resist tensile stress, the proteoglycans allow them to resist compressive stress. The elongation and the strain of the collagen fibrils alone have been shown to be much lower than the total elongation and strain of the entire tendon under the same amount of stress, demonstrating that the proteoglycan-rich matrix must also undergo deformation, and stiffening of the matrix occurs at high strain rates.[16] These molecules are very hydrophilic, meaning that they can absorb a large amount of water and therefore have a high swelling ratio. Since they are noncovalently bound to the fibrils, they may reversibly associate and disassociate so that the bridges between fibrils can be broken and reformed. This process may be involved in allowing the fibril to elongate and decrease in diameter under tension

[Yum Cha]

Tendons have been traditionally considered to simply be a mechanism by which muscles connect to bone, functioning simply to transmit forces. However, over the past two decades, much research focused on the elastic properties of tendons and their ability to function as springs. This allows tendons to passively modulate forces during locomotion, providing additional stability with no active work. It also allows tendons to store and recover energy at high efficiency. For example, during a human stride, the Achilles tendon stretches as the ankle joint dorsiflexes. During the last portion of the stride, as the foot plantar-flexes (pointing the toes down), the stored elastic energy is released. Furthermore, because the tendon stretches, the muscle is able to function with less or even no change in length, allowing the muscle to generate greater force.

The mechanical properties of the tendon are dependent on the collagen fiber diameter and orientation. The collagen fibrils are parallel to each other and closely packed, but show a wave-like appearance due to planar undulations, or crimps, on a scale of several micrometers.[13] In tendons, the collagen I fibres have some flexibility due to the absence of hydroxyproline and proline residues at specific locations in the amino acid sequence, which allows the formation of other conformations such as bends or internal loops in the triple helix and results in the development of crimps.[14] The crimps in the collagen fibrils allow the tendons to have some flexibility as well as a low compressive stiffness. In addition, because the tendon is a multi-stranded structure made up of many partially independent fibrils and fascicles, it does not behave as a single rod, and this property also contributes to its flexibility.[15]

The proteoglycan components of tendons also are important to the mechanical properties. While the collagen fibrils allow tendons to resist tensile stress, the proteoglycans allow them to resist compressive stress. The elongation and the strain of the collagen fibrils alone have been shown to be much lower than the total elongation and strain of the entire tendon under the same amount of stress, demonstrating that the proteoglycan-rich matrix must also undergo deformation, and stiffening of the matrix occurs at high strain rates.[16] These molecules are very hydrophilic, meaning that they can absorb a large amount of water and therefore have a high swelling ratio. Since they are noncovalently bound to the fibrils, they may reversibly associate and disassociate so that the bridges between fibrils can be broken and reformed. This process may be involved in allowing the fibril to elongate and decrease in diameter under tension

Cool extract. So, there is an elastic functionality too, yea, I feel that mostly as hyperextension I guess. During the acceleration phase, I can see how there could be some loading....

The way I understand it is that the little fibres pull and scar, pull and scar, and over the years the tendons build up to a larger size than average, but still have the full range of motion because they are always worked across that range.

Actually, it would be interesting to know if the range of flexibility actually increased, I get the feeling it does.

[IronFist]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.


Wait, was this a troll post?

Tendons don't flex. There's no such thing as "tendon strength."


i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts

The dude in your shoemaker example just had an extremely efficient neurological pathway for that movement. It has nothing to do with his tendons or "tendon strength."

Tendons connect muscle to bone. If you don't have "tendon strength" you end up in the hospital after you try to pick something up.

"Tendon strength" is just a way for TMAs who don't understand physiology at all to try and explain things. Sometimes they say silly things like "try to perform the movement with your tendons rather than your muscles" when someone is trying to muscle their way through a movement. That statement is hilarious on many levels:

1) tendons have nothing to do with movement (therefore "moving with your tendons" is impossible)

2) as if some noob student would know how to contract his tendons rather than his muscles (i mean, assuming it was possible in the first place)

3) demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the part of the supposed "master"

[IronFist]

YKW

yes sorry should have been more specific and said body building.
I actually got into body sculpting, crazy strict diet, no steriods use, aminos only, lifting daily, lighter weight 12-14reps 1 body part a per day, 4-5 excersizes per muscle, which cuts the heck out of you instead of bulk. starting to see individual lines in my shoulders quates an forearms

If you're getting cut up from that it's because of your diet. Weight training doesn't burn sufficient calories to cause weight loss, even in the higher rep range. High reps has nothing to do with losing fat (getting cut). There are some people who only do 1-5 reps per set with heavy weights and are shredded as hell because of diet and/or genetics.

Weight and reps (and time under tension) plays a role in how strong you get, how much endurance you get (I'm talking endurance for a particular movement, not cardio endurance), and how much hypertrophy you induce, but has nothing to do with your bodyfat percentage or how "cut" you are. Your body fat percentage is close to 100% a result of your diet (you can help by doing cardio).

The whole "high reps makes you cut" thing is a leftover myth from the 50s and 60s which unfortunately many people still believe.

[IronFist]

Now on to the video:

wtf @ rolling your hands around in those rocks. That looks painful as heck!

I have a feeling no one in that school would know what to do in a fight with a 200 pound weight lifter.

[Violent Designs]

Now on to the video:

wtf @ rolling your hands around in those rocks. That looks painful as heck!

I have a feeling no one in that school would know what to do in a fight with a 200 pound weight lifter.

notice how every kid in the video either looks like an underweight scrawny nerdy kid who gets bullied in school or is overweight and obese?

Delusional kung fu fantasy LARPers screamin right there.

NOT DISSING scrawny underweight nerdy kids, FFS I was once in those shoes a long time ago too.

But just saying they look like that type. Even in the way they conduct the interviews, don't seem very confident. :(

[Syn7]

I don't do much weight training. A little kettlebell work, but mostly I work my core in class by picking people up and throwing them.

grappling, wrestling gives you retard strength... im suprised nobody has commented on what you said... there are lots of ways to strengthen the body... they all have some merrit... but i have noticed that the people who wrestle the most are usually the strongest... just a personal observation... i wish i had put more into it in my youth...






what is LARPing

[Violent Designs]

L live

A action

R role

P playing

LARPing

[Syn7]

L live

A action

R role

P playing

LARPing

i wouldve never gotten that on my own...

[EarthDragon]

iron fist perhaps you should re read my posts I think you jumped the gun or perhaps I didnt explian it correctly. the examples you made are incorrect in refernce to what I wrote....


I actually got into body sculpting, crazy strict diet, no steriods use, aminos only, lifting daily, lighter weight 12-14reps 1 body part a per day, 4-5 excersizes per muscle, which cuts the heck out of you instead of bulk.

body sculpting is a combination of all these things which cuts instad of bulk. I never said just lifting high reps alone does this.. I'm NFPT certified adn this is part of the program that i train people in world gym. Also I copied tht tendon paragraph form a meidcal webiste, give it a read its very interesting.

[IronFist]

notice how every kid in the video either looks like an underweight scrawny nerdy kid who gets bullied in school or is overweight and obese?

Delusional kung fu fantasy LARPers screamin right there.

NOT DISSING scrawny underweight nerdy kids, FFS I was once in those shoes a long time ago too.


Nerdy kids that get picked on are usually have a reason to join martial arts. I don't think that is too uncommon in and of itself. They want to be able to defend themselves against bullies or whoever, so they join a martial arts school.


But just saying they look like that type. Even in the way they conduct the interviews, don't seem very confident. :(

They need to take some confident-speaking lessons from John R Allen of Green Dragon Studios. That dude is the most confident kung fu guy I've ever seen :eek:

[Knifefighter]

Add IronFist to another person who has pwn3d ED and shown how clueless he is.

Is there "tendon strength"? Yes ,insofar as tendons get stronger when you strengthen muscles. Tendons are part of the force transfer equation.

Can you train tendon strength separately from muscular strength? Of course not. A basic knowledge of exercise physiology and anatomy would pretty much lead to understanding this conclusive fact.

The fact that ED believes this simply proves how worthless a NFPT certification is.

Someone who has a "real" certification is going to either have a degree in exercise science from a university and/or will have a cert from the American College of Sports Medicine and/or the National Strength and Conditioning Association (you can't pass their tests without having a knowledge of exercise physiology and anatomy, which you seem to be able to do with the NFPT).

[IronFist]

iron fist perhaps you should re read my posts I think you jumped the gun or perhaps I didnt explian it correctly. the examples you made are incorrect in refernce to what I wrote....



body sculpting is a combination of all these things which cuts instad of bulk. I never said just lifting high reps alone does this.. I'm NFPT certified adn this is part of the program that i train people in world gym. Also I copied tht tendon paragraph form a meidcal webiste, give it a read its very interesting.

A medical website? You copied it from wikipedia :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendon

Even the part about a muscle having "no change in length" is referring to a millisecond during the human stride and more importantly says nothing about the muscle not contracting.

There's no such thing as "tendon strength." Tendons don't contract. Any additional strength they may provide (such as the stride example in the wikipedia article) is minor and temporary in nature and there's no way to even train it. "Oh yeah dude, I'm going to the gym to exercise my tendons today." I mean sure, your tendons get stronger as your muscles get stronger as far as their tissue is concerned, but even that doesn't matter for most people. In other words, trying to squat 800 pounds when you can only squat 400 pounds may possibly result in a tendon injury (or many other types of injuries), or sometimes people who use steroids may get tendon injuries as their muscles get stronger faster than their tendons can keep up with, but even in these cases their tendons are doing nothing other than connecting their muscle to their bone.

Arm wrestlers, shoe makers, etc., their strength has nothing to do with having "strong tendons" (outside of their tendons being tough enough to deal with the force generated by their muscles... which is the natural progression of developing strength over time).

For some reason people tend to think that skinny or "wiry" strength is somehow related to tendons. Maybe they think "oh that guy doesn't have big muscles, therefore it must be something else." I've heard people say that before.

Strength comes from muscles and neurological efficiency. Skinny people who are strong are strong because their muscles can contract hard. Obviously a big muscle has more potential than a smaller muscle (the absolute strongest people on the planet are big people) but strength is mostly neurological in nature (150 pound people who bench 400). Arm wrestlers, shoemakers, gymnasts (well, most upper level gymnasts aren't really "skinny" so that was a bad example), mechanics, lightweight powerlifters; they're strong because their muscles are strong, not because there's anything special about their tendons.

Of course, Knife Fighter summed all this up in post #20 in much fewer words than I did. lol.

[Knifefighter]

Strength comes from muscles and neurological efficiency. Skinny people who are strong are strong because their muscles can contract hard. Obviously a big muscle has more potential than a smaller muscle (the absolute strongest people on the planet are big people) but strength is mostly neurological in nature (150 pound people who bench 400). Arm wrestlers, shoemakers, gymnasts (well, most upper level gymnasts aren't really "skinny" so that was a bad example), mechanics, lightweight powerlifters; they're strong because their muscles are strong, not because there's anything special about their tendons.


ED gets pwn3d once again.

[IronFist]

This "tendon" thing has been discussed to death over the years on the Training forum. I'm not sure if the threads still exist.

This is Cliffs Notes of 95% of what you need to know:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=992858&postcount=30

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=596926&postcount=8

And this post will make you more knowledgeable about all this good stuff than 95% of people you will meet:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=597242&postcount=2

[David Jamieson]

Wait a second...are you guys actually arguing about whether or not tendon strength plays a role in overall strength?

Because it does and don't get your research from threads in forums. lol
Go read a medical journal. it's quite clear that tendon strength is key to overall strength and can be developed through specific exercises routines.

If a tendon loses optimal function, the rest fo the muscle it is associeated with, no matter teh size or potential will not function effectively.

and yes, resistance training strengthens tendons.

ligaments on the other hand are set in their ways. You cannot increase strength or length in these. You can only optimize to allow for full extension where required.

[Knifefighter]

Wait a second...are you guys actually arguing about whether or not tendon strength plays a role in overall strength?

Because it does and don't get your research from threads in forums. lol
Go read a medical journal. it's quite clear that tendon strength is key to overall strength and can be developed through specific exercises routines.

If a tendon loses optimal function, the rest fo the muscle it is associeated with, no matter teh size or potential will not function effectively.

and yes, resistance training strengthens tendons.

ligaments on the other hand are set in their ways. You cannot increase strength or length in these. You can only optimize to allow for full extension where required.

What we are saying is that you cannot separate tendon strength from muscular strength and you cannot train specifically for only tendon strength.

What we are also saying is that the force producing tissues in the human body are the muscle fibers. Tendons are connective tissue. They do not produce force, although they are part of the muscle, tendon, bone force transfer.

"Tendon strength" in terms of force production makes about as much sense as does thinking bone strength has anything to do with producing force.

[EarthDragon]

david Jamison

Wait a second...are you guys actually arguing about whether or not tendon strength plays a role in overall strength?
Im trying to discuss it with ironfirst, but again knifefighter is bad wagon jumping again, does knife know anything about anthing or is he just really stupid?


Because it does and don't get your research from threads in forums. lol
unfortualy thier researc h comes form youtube adn what other morons say.


Go read a medical journal. it's quite clear that tendon strength is key to overall strength and can be developed through specific exercises routines.

not accordign to yotube! LMAO


If a tendon loses optimal function, the rest fo the muscle it is associeated with, no matter teh size or potential will not function effectively.
and yes, resistance training strengthens tendons.

David sometimes I just let the ignorant people wallow in theri stupididty and misconceptions, its easier that way.
I actually called a sports therapist I know who holds 2 medical degrees who does kinesiology and cranial sacrum therapy and knows the anatomy better than I, and he laughed when I said someone I was talking to said you cant strenghten the tendons.... he said they are obviously not in the medical field and sounds like its the're opinion but its wrong.


ligaments on the other hand are set in their ways. You cannot increase strength or length in these. You can only optimize to allow for full extension where required. becuse ligaments attach bone to bone. perhaps knifeghter was thinking about ligaments???? shuould I give hoim the benifit of the doubt? NAW hes still stupid

[Knifefighter]

I actually called a sports therapist I know who holds 2 medical degrees who does kinesiology and cranial sacrum therapy and knows the anatomy better than I, and he laughed when I said someone I was talking to said you cant strenghten the tendons.... he said they are obviously not in the medical field and sounds like its the're opinion but its wrong.

Only a complete idiot (or a convicted fraud who is making stuff and lying once again) would ask a question like this considering the fact that we have both said tendons become stronger as muscles become stronger.

Of course, ED already knows that what we are saying is that you cannot do tendon specific strength training like he was claiming. (which his supposed "sports therapist with 2 medical degrees would have told him).

It's always funny how fraudulent people always try to put spins on things.

[Knifefighter]

it's quite clear that tendon strength is key to overall strength and can be developed through specific exercises routines.

THE key?

Please explain the physiology behind that. And while you are at it, please explain the protocol for specific tendon strength training that would exclude training the muscle. And finally, throw in the physiological explanation for how you would increase the force producing capacity of a tissue that does not produce force.

[Drake]

Could a single person here xplain to me, medically, how a tendon can be "stronger"? This doesn't even pass third grade health class logic. It's the muscles, dude. You have muscular strength, which is basically how much you can lift, etc, and you have muscular endurance, which is how long you can repeat a particular exercise (FM 21-20). Some guys a while back also broke it down to "slow twitch" and "fast twitch" muscles, but I am not completely sold on it yet.

Why in the HELL would you refer to a thousand+ year old document as medical science? That'd be like using sports medicine from the 1800s, only much, MUCH worse. Ancient Chinese medicine was pretty far off, as was medicine in general around that time. They might have gotten SOME things right, but they were generally miles off in the overall sense.

We have ultramodern facilities working overtime, utilizing molecular biology and advanced physiology to help maximize our potential, and some still go back to inaccurate manuscripts written by people who didn't even know how cells worked.

[IronWeasel]

Could a single person here xplain to me, medically, how a tendon can be "stronger"?


I think what they mean is that it can get "stronger" like a rope is "stronger" than kite string.

That's why you begin weight training with lower weights, even if you can lift more. Your tendons aren't used to being stressed with frequent, heavy loads, and are more apt to be torn/pulled/stressed/damaged/inflamed than tendons that have had some time to adapt to the new weight load in your workout routine.


Tai Gik Yahn should be in this thread...

[Syn7]

david Jamison

Im trying to discuss it with ironfirst, but again knifefighter is bad wagon jumping again, does knife know anything about anthing or is he just really stupid?

ok not trying to pick on you but i see this so much in your posts... you mix up ur words alot...

its band wagon... and yesterday or the day before you said 30 odd 6 in reference to a rifle...its ought, not odd...

there are many examples, or i wouldntve said anything... doesnt exactly lend credability to an argument... if you can get those details wrong, then...............

[EarthDragon]

syn,
I cant type for s h it . never learned how in school, typng class for secratires and girls... come to thin k of it lots of girls so i shoudl have been in that class, however computers wernt in classrooms yet when I was in there in the late 70's only 1 and it was in the computer room and I think it was DOS only with a black screen and green lettering so yea my typing sucks, I leave a lot of letters out of words and mix them uo contastanly adn dont bother to go back and malke the corections,... Im not being graded on my punctualtiy and grammer am I? LOL

So I left the letter N out of BAND.... sorry about that. and I do not hunt and know nothing about firearms so I spelled it incorrectly, my apologies. but I can assure you what i post about I have some sort of education in this field otherise I wont respond or discuss posts in which i am not sure about..... unlike other people like knifefighter who thinks he knows everythign and is usally always wrong. I do spend most of my day reading not watching TV adn I do hold 2 college degrees and working on my 3rd degree OMD for oriental medical doctor's license so this part i do have some knoweldge on.

so for the others that dont understand tendon strenthening yet, heres an example

Tendon Strength Training: Performance benefits of optimising both components of your muscle tendon units
Tendon Strength Unfortunately, I've been spending the past several weeks in recovery from elbow tendonitis.
An increase in my one arm chin-up training left my joints screaming and even a simple two arm chin-up was a pain. I'll give the one arm chin training at least another week's rest, but I'm back to most other exercises.

I figure now is a good time to speak of the basics of tendon injury and strength. This will probably be a very basic review for some, but I hope to educate others who are not as familiar.

What is a tendon?
A tendon, simply put, is what attaches your muscles to your bones. In the picture above, you can clearly see the relationship between the three. As the muscle contracts, it pulls on the tendon, which moves the bone.

Importance of tendon strength
If we understand the relationship between muscle, bone, and tendon - we can see the importance of strengthening the tendons. To make an analogy, imagine your muscles are your car engine, and your tendons are the tires. Now you may have a lot of horses under the hood, but if your tires aren't good enough, then you're not transferring as much power as possible. The whole system needs to be strong.

So let's look about a bit more at the muscles and tendons.
First, here is detail of the muscle
The muscle is composed of groups of muscle fibers. When one trains to increase the size of ones muscles (hypertrophy), the muscle fibers increase in size. While a larger muscle definitely helps generate force, it is not always indicative of true strength.
For example, a bodybuilder's main goal is to increase this muscle hypertrophy all over his body. Are bodybuilders the strongest athletes out there? Certainly not. My love and respect to Schwarzenegger, he's very strong, but his training was for muscle growth, not necessary raw strength - such as a powerlifter or olympic lifter trains for. It's just a different training goal, that's all. And don't even get me started on these bloated bodybuilding freaks of today...

There are plenty of Olympic weightlifters who look nothing like bodybuilders, but who toss monstrous amounts of weight up over their heads.

Looking good for a bodybuilding competition may suit some, but if you want muscle that will work as well as it looks, then you've got to strengthen the tendons to be able to transfer the power. Again, don't take me wrong, bodybuilders are still very strong, but pound for pound, you can't beat the weightlifters.
Difference in Training
Generally speaking, weighttraining workouts that advocate higher numbers of reps and sets for far less than maximal weights will promote hypertrophy and work the tendons to a lesser degree.

To stress the tendons, heavier, near maximal weights for less repetitions should be used.

Some places, like the hand, absolutely require strong tendons for staggering feats of strength. This is because hypertrophy in the hand will occur, but only to a limited degree. It's the tendons that must be stressed and strengthened to create incredible power.

My hand strength training has never consisted of high repetitions with lower weights. This is why Ironmind created the Captains of Crush high spring tension grippers. It's high tension that will build hand strength, not endless repetitions with a weak store gripper.

Tendon injury and recovery
When training with higher poundage, we must remember the stress put on the tendons and allow for adequate recovery. This is especially true of the hands, which can be injured easily and which take a long time to come back from injury. Lower weight, extremely repetitive actions can also cause tendon damage. (think tennis elbow or carpal tunnel)

My training mistake for the OAP involved using a high poundage (only 15lbs assistance) and a bit too many sets (2-3 repetitions for 6 sets). Especially when training something like the OAP, where so much force is focused on the elbow joint, I should have used less sets and allowed for my body to adapt over more time, rather than rush things. Live and learn though...

Tendon injury will be felt at the joints, as opposed to along the limb, as in muscle soreness. Tendon injury also takes much longer to heal than muscle damage (soreness) due to the lower blood flow. It therefore requires more rest and rehabilitation to be back at 100%.

At the time of injury, it is the smartest course of action to inact the R.I.C.E. treatment - Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation. In other words, you'll want to stop the activity, wrap an ice pack around it, and take some anti-inflammatory medicine (ibuprofen). There's research looking into whether RICE really is the best method for recovery for tendon injuries, but until otherwise noted, slap on the ice and pop an ibuprofen.

During the follow days and weeks of recovery, you'll want to avoid the activity that caused the tendonitis. You can use heat pads and massage to get the blood flowing through the tendons and speed healing. Some very light range of movement exercises for the joint with bands will also help to move some blood through the area. But the number one thing that you can do to make sure things heal up properly is REST. If you try and jump into your activities again full bore, you just reinjure yourself and have to start back from square one. And under no circumstance should you be trying to "work through the pain". This only serves to keep your tendon injury around much longer, and most likely elevate its severity until you'll need more than heat and rest to come back.


In other news...

[IronFist]

Only a complete idiot (or a convicted fraud who is making stuff and lying once again) would ask a question like this considering the fact that we have both said tendons become stronger as muscles become stronger.

Of course, ED already knows that what we are saying is that you cannot do tendon specific strength training like he was claiming. (which his supposed "sports therapist with 2 medical degrees would have told him).

Pretty much exactly what I was going to reply, you just beat me to it.

Here is Cliffs Notes for the ultra dense:

- Muscles contract, tendons do not

- Muscles are responsible for the generation of all movement, tendons are along for the ride and are what allow your muscles to actually move your bones since they connect the two

- Tendons become stronger as the muscle becomes stronger, but this has nothing to do with generating strength.

- Tendons "becoming stronger" is analogous to bone becoming denser as stress is applied to it over time (Wolff's Law). To an extent, even this plays a role in strength, seeing as how hypothetically if a bone was unable to support the weight being lifted it would break, and IIRC there are instances of bones breaking during ridiculously heavy squat attempts, but it has NOTHING to do with strength in an of itself.

- None of that changes the fact that muscles are responsible for movement and strength, and by training your muscles to get stronger, your tendons happen to get stronger and your bones happen to get denser as a byproduct of the training.

So if you seriously ask someone "can tendons get stronger," obviously the answer is "yes," as both Knifefighter and I have mentioned numerous times. But they don't get stronger in the sense that you were talking about, or in the sense that clueless TMAists claim.


If you really want "strong tendons," just do weight training as usual. Sorry, but you'll get strong muscles in the process. Don't tell the TMAists.

[Syn7]

ok fair enough... i leave letters out all the time and i believe you left out N by mistake... but it happens alot with you... not just spelling...

like ought is another term for zero... its not used much anymore, its something your generation should be more familiar with than mine... maybe i do have experience with guns but thats not how i know ought is zero... i learned that in elementary school in the eighties...

[Hardwork108]

Pretty much exactly what I was going to reply, you just beat me to it.

Here is Cliffs Notes for the ultra dense:

- Muscles contract, tendons do not

- Muscles are responsible for the generation of all movement, tendons are along for the ride and are what allow your muscles to actually move your bones since they connect the two

- Tendons become stronger as the muscle becomes stronger, but this has nothing to do with generating strength.

- Tendons "becoming stronger" is analogous to bone becoming denser as stress is applied to it over time (Wolff's Law). To an extent, even this plays a role in strength, seeing as how hypothetically if a bone was unable to support the weight being lifted it would break, and IIRC there are instances of bones breaking during ridiculously heavy squat attempts, but it has NOTHING to do with strength in an of itself.

- None of that changes the fact that muscles are responsible for movement and strength, and by training your muscles to get stronger, your tendons happen to get stronger and your bones happen to get denser as a byproduct of the training.

So if you seriously ask someone "can tendons get stronger," obviously the answer is "yes," as both Knifefighter and I have mentioned numerous times. But they don't get stronger in the sense that you were talking about, or in the sense that clueless TMAists claim.


If you really want "strong tendons," just do weight training as usual. Sorry, but you'll get strong muscles in the process. Don't tell the TMAists.

There are specific TCMA exercises and methodologies that emphasis tendon development, even if they require the muscle function to help out, by necessity. A lot of this is not taught publicly, for good reason, I might add.

Just because the majority of "TCMA-ists", or those who claim "TCMA" experience, don't know about this area of traditional kung fu training, it does not mean that such practices don't exist.

I am just being logical here.....

[Yum Cha]

I don't think anybody made the contention that tendon's in themselves have 'muscular' strength. Maybe sprinkle some tendon dust on my cornflakes to give me extra chi ball super powers? You're wankers for thinking we're wankers.

To me, the only contention is that with training, you can make that element of the chain stronger.

Tendons are not inflexible. Thus, if they flex, they can be loaded. If they are stressed they will strengthen. Same with bone, same with muscle. Is it a linear relationship, all in the same rate? Well, guess what, depends on how you train.

Lots of people get injuries when their muscles are stronger than their tendons and either the tendon pulls, or comes off the bone.

Iron Fist, I read through you links, and it just comes across as opinion, based upon a bunch of assumptions and an obvious expertise, with all respect. I understand where you are coming from, as a 'strength coach', but its a totally different perspective.

If you'll bear with me, maybe look at it as the power curve. Some movements have a straight line (or straighter line) of delivery. A Lift, a haymaker roundhouse. There is as close to as much strength being applied from start to end. more or less....

A 'short power' strike has a much steeper curve, and a peak where it drops back to nothing practically instantly.

Ever seen the difference between a winch and a grab strap for pulling a rig out of a bog?

If this is in your physical vocabulary, you know it, and maybe the accepted term "tendon strength" is miseading, but there is something here.

I'm the first to admit, I come at this whole thing backward, I train, my body does stuff, and I try to explain what is happening. But frankly, its not going to make it happen or stop either way.


I got a whiplash injury in a car accident 6 weeks ago, hit the physio, got a months worth of massage. I asked her if she felt any difference in my shoulder and arm tendons, she said they were ropey... Hardly scientific, but...

And she was a Brazilian, so you know she was good with her hands...

[Knifefighter]

Some places, like the hand, absolutely require strong tendons for staggering feats of strength. This is because hypertrophy in the hand will occur, but only to a limited degree. It's the tendons that must be stressed and strengthened to create incredible power.

Wow! Talk about clueless. The prime movers of the hands and fingers are in the forearms.

[IronFist]

There are specific TCMA exercises and methodologies that emphasis tendon development, even if they require the muscle function to help out, by necessity. A lot of this is not taught publicly, for good reason, I might add.

Give an example of one of these exercises. You don't have to share your super secret ninja closed door stuff, but explain the theoretical basis behind how it works?

The only way to put "emphasis" on the tendons would be to somehow bypass the muscles. I'm extremely curious how this would be done. Sounds like TMA hokum to me. No offense.

More importantly, what is the reason that tendons would need to be "emphasized" such that they develop disproportionally compared to muscles? In other words, what is wrong with the natural tendon strengthening that occurs from in conjunction with weight training?

What caused an ancient sifu to think "gee, my muscles are strong enough, if only my tendons were stronger" and try to develop exercises to accomplish that goal?

The only "tendon" exercises I've seen in TMA were some qigong things that were actually just a mixture of dynamic tension and relaxed movements. Guess what? All of that was 100% muscle in real life despite what the instructor was saying.

edit - I will allow for the possibility that there was some translation error somewhere along the way. Someone in one of the threads I linked to on the training forum mentioned that "tendon/sinew" in Chinese may not translate exactly to "tendon" in English.

[dimethylsea]

Old Chinese saying said, "一力勝十会(Yi Li Sheng Shi Hui) - strength can defeat 10 best techniques."


Is the Li 力 being talked about here a word that applies just to muscle strength or also to tendon strength?

This is not a "Qi" type question.. say the strength it takes to hold onto a bar or grip a gi/jacket. Or that a pipe-fitter has from years of clamping a hand vise. Is this sort of strength Li 力 also?

[bawang]

in chinese martial arts theres no such thing as tendon strength.

chinese word for muscle is "tendon meat". and shortened word "tendon" mean muscle. sometimes white people get confused.

tendon strength means MUSCLE strength in chinese.

[YouKnowWho]

Is the Li 力 being talked about here a word that applies just to muscle strength or also to tendon strength?

力 (Li) = strength

This Chinese word does not address muscle vs. tendon.

TCMA saying said, "We train tendon, bone, skin on the outside. We train Qi on the inside." I do believe Chinese word tendon include muscle as well.

[bawang]

americans see big biceps as signs of strength. thats why some people dont look strong (to americans) and can lift heavy.

[IronFist]

To me, the only contention is that with training, you can make that element of the chain stronger.

The tendon development that comes from normal weight training is sufficient for 99% of people. Apparently some people require closed door secret exercises.


Lots of people get injuries when their muscles are stronger than their tendons and either the tendon pulls, or comes off the bone.

That usually comes from using too much weight too quickly (such as the disproportionate strength increase that can come from using steroids) or a genetic weakness.


If you'll bear with me, maybe look at it as the power curve. Some movements have a straight line (or straighter line) of delivery. A Lift, a haymaker roundhouse. There is as close to as much strength being applied from start to end. more or less....

A 'short power' strike has a much steeper curve, and a peak where it drops back to nothing practically instantly.

Both of those are entirely dependent upon tension generated in the muscles. "Short power" is a TMA concept that has been wildly blown out of proportion to this almost mythical nature where it requires secret training and qigong power and all this crap.

Short power, including the one inch punch (which people always attribute to qi for some reason), is entirely body mechanics. Sure it takes some time to learn, but the movement is still all muscle.


Ever seen the difference between a winch and a grab strap for pulling a rig out of a bog?

Unfortunately I don't know what either of those things mean :o


I got a whiplash injury in a car accident 6 weeks ago, hit the physio, got a months worth of massage. I asked her if she felt any difference in my shoulder and arm tendons, she said they were ropey... Hardly scientific, but...

And she was a Brazilian, so you know she was good with her hands...

I'm not really familiar with whiplash. According to wikipedia (which admittedly is not a medical authority) however it sounds more like a ligament issue than a tendon one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiplash_%28medicine%29

Other possibilities (take these with a grain of salt since like I said I don't know much about whiplash):

- your tendons felt different because they got stretched in the injury

- she wasn't actually feeling your tendons and was just appeasing you to maintain her air of knowledge in your eyes

[IronFist]

in chinese martial arts theres no such thing as tendon strength.

chinese word for muscle is "tendon meat". and shortened word "tendon" mean muscle. sometimes white people get confused.

tendon strength means MUSCLE strength in chinese.

that, indeed, would clear up much of the confusion.


americans see big biceps as signs of strength. thats why some people dont look strong (to americans) and can lift heavy.

Agreed. Just look at lightweight powerlifters. Sure, they look muscular, but they don't look like bodybuilders. And they're ridiculously strong.

[hskwarrior]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3kkOajStDe_oYM:http://www.ananova.com/images/web/1036061.jpg&t=1

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think all strength come from muscle. How about grip strength? If you can squeeze and crack nuts by your hand, are you using your muscle or tendon?

[bawang]

muscle. your palm is a thick pad of muscle and your grip uses muscle all the way up to your elbow.

some people have bloated muscles, they have a lot of water and fat bubbles in their muscle. but if you grab their muscle u can feel its all soft and wobbly. in kung fu thats called fake meat or fat meat. if your muscle is old and leathery and tough, thers no fat bubbles and your muscles have parrallel interlocking tendon fibres. kung fu calls that tough meat.

[Hardwork108]

in chinese martial arts theres no such thing as tendon strength.

chinese word for muscle is "tendon meat". and shortened word "tendon" mean muscle. sometimes white people get confused.

tendon strength means MUSCLE strength in chinese.

And yet some Southern styles (maybe Northern too, but I don't know) have specific methodologies that emphasis the training of the tendons, as we know it in the West (toghether with muscles, of course).

[EarthDragon]

ironfistyou are contrdicitng yourself in your own posts man. you said theres no such thing as tendon strength. then you said if you want tendon strength.... then you sadi if you ask if tendon can get stronger the obvious answer is YES...... LOL


there is no such thing and has nothing to do with his tendons or "tendon strength."

Tendons connect muscle to bone. If you don't have "tendon strength" you end up in the hospital after you try to pick something up.

[QUOTE]"Tendon strength" is just a way for TMAs who don't understand physiology at all to try and explain things. QUOTE]
So if you seriously ask someone "can tendons get stronger," obviously the answer is "yes," If you really want "strong tendons," just do weight training as usual. Tendons don't flex. There's no such thing as "tendon strength."

soooo you are more confused on this issue then everyone else who has posted on this thread. All I said was my shoemaker friend had tendon strength, then you and the idiot kniefighter who has NO knowledge about anything jumped all over me... give it some slack ironfist and until you can post medical affirmation to support your argument "with yourself" lOL Im afraid you lost this one. PS anyone that agrees with kniefifighter on these boards cannto adn will not ever be taken seriopusly, dont agree with anythign he says or peopel will look at you funny

[Hardwork108]

some people have bloated muscles, they have a lot of water and fat bubbles in their muscle. but if you grab their muscle u can feel its all soft and wobbly. in kung fu thats called fake meat or fat meat. if your muscle is old and leathery and tough, thers no fat bubbles and your muscles have parrallel interlocking tendon fibres. kung fu calls that tough meat.

Correct, and there are some methodologies that take the training of the "tough meat" to higher levels, sometimes ( not always) without the use of weight training, as we know it in the West......

[bawang]

And yet some Southern styles (maybe Northern too, but I don't know) have specific methodologies that emphasis the training of the tendons, as we know it in the West (toghether with muscles, of course).

many styles teach efficiency and train only enough strength to knock out and lift a man. if you just squat about 200 pounds thats enough to throw most people, youre not gonna get big.

[Drake]

Here's a better idea. Instead of arguing with a bunch of folks on a message board, ask a doctor.

And stop referencing stuff that hasn't been current medicine for at least 200 years.

[IronFist]

I don't think all strength come from muscle. How about grip strength? If you can squeeze and crack nuts by your hand, are you using your muscle or tendon?

Muscle.

Muscle is contracting and causing your hand to squeeze.

[IronFist]

ironfistyou are contrdicitng yourself in your own posts man. you said theres no such thing as tendon strength. then you said if you want tendon strength.... then you sadi if you ask if tendon can get stronger the obvious answer is YES...... LOL

Wow, now I know you're just trolling and not actually confused.

I even gave an analogy for tendons "getting stronger" (bone density and Wolff's law).



soooo you are more confused on this issue then everyone else who has posted on this thread. All I said was my shoemaker friend had tendon strength, then you and the idiot kniefighter who has NO knowledge about anything jumped all over me... give it some slack ironfist and until you can post medical affirmation to support your argument "with yourself" lOL Im afraid you lost this one. PS anyone that agrees with kniefifighter on these boards cannto adn will not ever be taken seriopusly, dont agree with anythign he says or peopel will look at you funny

Ok.

[bawang]

i think some people have a fear or phobia of lifting weights because they are intimidated at the gym, and were bullied by high school jocks.

theres some people out there that looks down on skinny people walking into a gym and make fun of them, some times right in their face. ive seen lots of skinny people walk into a gym, be scared and nervous and never come back.

[Drake]

i think some people have a fear or phobia of lifting weights because they are intimidated at the gym, and were bullied by high school jocks.

I don't like it because it makes me tired.

[IronFist]

some people have bloated muscles, they have a lot of water and fat bubbles in their muscle.

lol wat?


but if you grab their muscle u can feel its all soft and wobbly. in kung fu thats called fake meat or fat meat. if your muscle is old and leathery and tough, thers no fat bubbles and your muscles have parrallel interlocking tendon fibres. kung fu calls that tough meat.

Are you talking about people with a lot of bodyfat over their muscles (like a stereotypical heavyweight powerlifter) vs. people with low bodyfat (like Bruce Lee)?

Their muscle is exactly the same.

One of them just has a lot more bodyfat.

[bawang]

i lift weights because i hope it make my peenis grow.

lol wat?



Are you talking about people with a lot of bodyfat over their muscles (like a stereotypical heavyweight powerlifter) vs. people with low bodyfat (like Bruce Lee)?

Their muscle is exactly the same.

One of them just has a lot more bodyfat.

mang im not talking about bodyfat im talking about lots of peoples muscles are soft when they dont flex. even if they have no fat and definition.

beef is tough and stringy and has interlocking tendons inside the muscle. pig and lamb have pockets of fat inside the muscle.

[EarthDragon]

ironfist are you going to explian why you contrdicted yourself? or just gonna skip over it? re read your own posts man, then come up with a better way to explian what you are trying to get the rest of us to understand.

[YouKnowWho]

kung fu calls that tough meat.

This just remind me that my teacher always asked his students to bite on his arm. None of us could sink our teeth into his arm muscle.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5103/changyoungpic.jpg

[IronFist]

many styles teach efficiency and train only enough strength to knowkc and lift a man. if you just squat about 200 pounds thats enough to throw most people, youre not gonna get big.

olympic weight lifters get big because theyre lifting 300+ pound weights. some swede world record guy lifted 1100 pounds.

Size is a function of diet and weight used and time under tension. Working within the parameters of your genetics, you have to train a specific way and eat a specific way in order to "get big."

You can lift heavy weights and not "get huge" (lightweight powerlifters, for example).

As for squatting 200 pounds, I guarantee you someone who can squat 200 pounds would be considered "big" by kung fu standards, especially compared to the guys in that video in the first page. lol.

I feel like the next direction this thread is going to go in is going to be about whether or not holding horse stance for an hour actually makes your legs stronger. I'm pretty sure that topic has been beaten to death, too. But I can hear it now... "WE DONT DO SQUATS BECAUSE OUR SIFU SAYS [something about weights being bad or tendon strength or qi blasts or whatever] BUT WE GET LOTS OF LEG STRENGTH FROM DOING HORSE STANCE FOR 5 HOURS A DAY!!1!1!!!"

[IronFist]

mang im not talking about bodyfat im talking about lots of peoples muscles are soft when they dont flex. even if they have no fat and definition.


Man, if you have hard muscles when you're not flexing, you've probably got dystonia or some sort of neurological disorder.

[YouKnowWho]

whether or not holding horse stance for an hour actually makes your legs stronger.
I'm not sure about the combat useage of the horse stance in the striking art. But in throwing art, the horse stance is one of the 3 major stances used in throwing (besides golden rooster and bow-arrow). Without a strong horse stance, your hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, bear hug, fire man's carry, ... will not be effective.

I prefer to lift my throwing dummy from a low horse stance and straight up than just holding my horse stance statically.

[bawang]

noe mang. im not talking about tensed up im talking about just tough and stringy muscle liek beef.

[IronFist]

ironfist are you going to explian why you contrdicted yourself? or just gonna skip over it? re read your own posts man, then come up with a better way to explian what you are trying to get the rest of us to understand.

What did I say that contradicted myself?

Tendons get stronger as you train with weights in the same way that bones get more dense as they are subjected to weight bearing stress over time.

But tendon strength has nothing to do with how "strong" someone is.

A skinny dude with a crushing grip is a result of extremely efficient neurological pathways for grip strength and has almost nothing to do with him having "strong tendons" aside from the fact that his tendons are tough enough to not tear during his exertion. But they're not what is causing his strength.

I thought I explained that a few times. Please clarify where I am "contradicting myself."

[EarthDragon]

ironfist
ummmm read your own posts!!!!!!!!!!


So if you seriously ask someone "can tendons get stronger," obviously the answer is "yes,"

If you really want "strong tendons," just do weight training as usual.

Tendons don't flex. There's no such thing as "tendon strength."

The dude in your shoemaker example just had an extremely efficient neurological pathway for that movement. It has nothing to do with his tendons or "tendon strength."

Tendons connect muscle to bone. If you don't have "tendon strength" you end up in the hospital after you try to pick something up.

"Tendon strength" is just a way for TMAs who don't understand physiology at all to try and explain things.

you dont see the contricdiction here? seriously? not trying to be diffacult but you jumped all over me and claimed I dont knwo what im talking about, but you say there no such thing as tendon strength then you said tendon strength and if you want tendon strength... so which is it? if you say Im wrong and there no such thing as tendon strength then why would you tell us how to increase it by lifting weight as usual?

[Knifefighter]

ironfist
I noticed your are now avioidng answering the questions that I posted. Are you going to explian why you contrdicted yourself? or just gonna skip over it? If you do its OK, just wanted to give you the floor to explain your contridiction adn side of the discussion, if you choose not to then again its OK brother. Be well

Which specific questions are he avoiding?

[bawang]

whats with kung fu phobia of big muscles? i only heard it in america. in tradtional kung fu being muscular is sign of strength and manliness.
ive heard of core strength but never tendon strength

http://www.hengshengrong.com/UploadFiles/20079811023417.jpg
the two diamond gods the image of the ideal chinese warrior

[Drake]

This has to be one of the most stupid discussions ever. I feel dumber just having read this crap.

[bawang]

if u dont lift weights and be strong ur not a man

[IronFist]

whats with kung fu phobia of big muscles? i only heard it in america. in tradtional kung fu being muscular is sign of strength and manliness.
ive heard of core strength but never tendon strength

http://www.hengshengrong.com/UploadFiles/20079811023417.jpg
the two diamond gods the image of the ideal chinese warrior

Oh geez is that what Chinese people think anatomy looks like?

I now understand why there is so much confusion :D

[IronFist]

ironfist
ummmm read your own posts!!!!!!!!!!



you dont see the contricdiction here? seriously? not trying to be diffacult but you jumped all over me and claimed I dont knwo what im talking about, but you say there no such thing as tendon strength then you said tendon strength and if you want tendon strength... so which is it? if you say Im wrong and there no such thing as tendon strength then why would you tell us how to increase it by lifting weight as usual?

Reread post 80.

[Hardwork108]

Give an example of one of these exercises. You don't have to share your super secret ninja closed door stuff, but explain the theoretical basis behind how it works?
I can't talk about the theorical side without giving too much away. However, there IS such methodology and it is valid. I have seen it and it is NOT muscle building as "External" martial arts see it. Infact weight training was discouraged as it would contradict the benefits one was seeking from doing these specific TCMA exercises.


The only way to put "emphasis" on the tendons would be to somehow bypass the muscles.
The muscles are not bypassed as such, they are used to create resistance that has an "amplified" effect on the tendons. I will even say that this training, in the long term, goes beyond just creating stronger tendons.


I'm extremely curious how this would be done. Sounds like TMA hokum to me. No offense.
None taken, and this is understandable. I have been insulted in far worse ways by people who were unfamiliar with these practices in this forum, for daring to mention TCMA methodologies that some of our mainly MMA crowd had not come across throughout their "decades" of MA training.

The fact remains that they exist and the other fact is that you are very unlikely to even come across references to them in books or dvds. IF you are lucky, on some rare occasion you may see a passing reference, or hint, but then these are always misinterpreted by the reader who will use his own knowledge base to understand what is being talked about.


More importantly, what is the reason that tendons would need to be "emphasized" such that they develop disproportionally compared to muscles? In other words, what is wrong with the natural tendon strengthening that occurs from in conjunction with weight training?
Natural tendon strenghening goes no where near the capacity that your tendons can be "strenghened".

Also, "disproportionally" developed tendons on the limbs can help achieve the "heaviness" that many TCMA methodologies seek to achieve. I won't say more.
´


What caused an ancient sifu to think "gee, my muscles are strong enough, if only my tendons were stronger" and try to develop exercises to accomplish that goal?
This methodology goes far beyond of just stronger tendons making you stronger. I remember myself discussing this same question with one of my Chow Gar kung fu brothers, during a few training sessions. We could not come up with an answer, because to our logic it sounded impossible for some sifu having stumbled on this by accident.

So, yes I still ponder on this question myself, and I am sure that there is an answer for this somewhere.....


The only "tendon" exercises I've seen in TMA were some qigong things that were actually just a mixture of dynamic tension and relaxed movements. Guess what? All of that was 100% muscle in real life despite what the instructor was saying.
Guess what, even some of the more "common", so called "dynamic tension" (a somewhat misleading name, perhaps on purpose) exercises can bring in good benefit as far as your tendons are concerned, but they are done wrongly, in that they do not emphasis the tendons as they should.

I have always stated in this forum that the TCMAs are taught on a multilevel basis, that is if you are lucky enough to come across a genuine master who can teach you beyond the one dimensional punch, kick and external conditioning aspects.


edit - I will allow for the possibility that there was some translation error somewhere along the way. Someone in one of the threads I linked to on the training forum mentioned that "tendon/sinew" in Chinese may not translate exactly to "tendon" in English.

That is true, but there are still methodolgies that will emphasis the "tendons", as we in the West know it, and again that training will take the practitioner way beyond just "strength", but will unite him with the given art's general power generation concepts and principles.

[Hardwork108]

whats with kung fu phobia of big muscles? i only heard it in america. in tradtional kung fu being muscular is sign of strength and manliness.
ive heard of core strength but never tendon strength

http://www.hengshengrong.com/UploadFiles/20079811023417.jpg
the two diamond gods the image of the ideal chinese warrior

I guess you and I practice different traditional kung fu's.

By the way, aren't you somewhat contradicting yourself? Oh nevermind, I might as well discuss kung fu with Dragonzbane.....:rolleyes:

[bawang]

i win internet fight. your mind isnt strong enuf. ur cowerd

[Yum Cha]

The tendon development that comes from normal weight training is sufficient for 99% of people. Apparently some people require closed door secret exercises.

That usually comes from using too much weight too quickly (such as the disproportionate strength increase that can come from using steroids) or a genetic weakness.

I don't know about closed door, but different exercises bring different results. My point about the injuries is simply that it appears tendons can be strengthened independently of muscles, or weighted more in the proportion of the exercise.



Both of those are entirely dependent upon tension generated in the muscles. "Short power" is a TMA concept that has been wildly blown out of proportion to this almost mythical nature where it requires secret training and qigong power and all this crap.

Short power, including the one inch punch (which people always attribute to qi for some reason), is entirely body mechanics. Sure it takes some time to learn, but the movement is still all muscle.

Yes, muscle, tendon and bone drive all movement, but forgetting all the mumbo jumbo about short power as a mystical device, just look at the mechanics and the power delivery curve.

One is constant, one accelerates to a point than goes limp.

You know the southern white crane exercise San Chen, its one of those fundamental building block forms from back in the day. The expression of Faat Ging, which is that whipping, explosive power. If I had to guess, I would say that is the proscribed way to train this kind of power, Tendon Power, Short Power, whatever. Now that the chinese speakers are commenting, I don't know what to call it.


Unfortunately I don't know what either of those things mean :o

Don't worry, neither do I, I just thought it sounded good.....:p

If you have a 4wd stuck in a mud hole, you know, up to the axle, there are two ways to pull it out. You rig a winch, and pull it out inch by inch....

Of you get a snatch strap. You hook it to one truck, that just takes off, pulling out the slack, then stretching the strap, until the force plucks the truck from the mud.

Here's a video of some Aussie hillbillies having fun...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-WnBmzIJ1k&feature=fvw


I'm not really familiar with whiplash. According to wikipedia (which admittedly is not a medical authority) however it sounds more like a ligament issue than a tendon one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiplash_%28medicine%29

Other possibilities (take these with a grain of salt since like I said I don't know much about whiplash):

- your tendons felt different because they got stretched in the injury

- she wasn't actually feeling your tendons and was just appeasing you to maintain her air of knowledge in your eyes

No, the comment was not related to the whiplash, that just got me a round of Physio, and this was just general, not relating to my neck. I asked because I was wondering if perhaps my joints had accumulated some damage from the training over the years.

We hyperextend our joints all the time. Like stretching out to reach something, then releasing the last inch or two. We do this under power, so the arm goes out there.

I've been concerned about the long term effects, but the thing is, for my age and all, I'm still put together without too many patches. Joints are all good, back has some issues, but.

So, mistakenly or not, this is what I've always considered tendon power, because, in the early stages of training, your shoulders and elbows ache, its a passing phase though. If you lay off or 6 mos or more, you go through it again.

[Hardwork108]

i win internet fight. your mind isnt strong enuf. ur cowerd

As usual, you are fighting with yourself, and losing, I might add.....

[bawang]

wing chun sucks and it not real kung fu

[Drake]

Why aren't you kids out trick or treating? I'm at home with pizza, about to watch The Walking Dead.

You shouldn't argue so much about stuff you don't know about. It's like coming on to a physics website and saying "PARTYKIL FIZICS IZ DUM LOL!"

[bawang]

why would i celebrate haloween? i dont worship satan

[Hardwork108]

Why aren't you kids out trick or treating? I'm at home with pizza, about to watch The Walking Dead.
And I am here talking to the Walking Brain Dead. That is, this forum's MMA-ists and pseudo-kung fu-ists. I bet you will get more intellectual stimulation from your movie than I will with the kung fu clueless glorified kickboxers of this forum.....:D


You shouldn't argue so much about stuff you don't know about. It's like coming on to a physics website and saying "PARTYKIL FIZICS IZ DUM LOL!"

I hope that Bawang is reading this......

Ummmmm, pizza.....:D

[bawang]

wing chun zombie
bong saooooooooooo bong saoooooooooooo

[Hardwork108]

why would i celebrate haloween? i dont worship satan

Hey, here is a secret: Dave Ross and Satan, are one and the same.

So, if you worship Ross, then you should be trick or treating tonight, with your "Iron Anus", of course.....LOL!

[bawang]

r u sexy woman
pls say yes

[Hardwork108]

I believe that you are mistaking me for Dragonzbane.....LOL

[Drake]

why would i celebrate haloween? i dont worship satan

What does free candy have to do with satan?

[Violent Designs]

everyone knows halloween is to celebrate worship of satan

noob.

[bawang]

I believe that you are mistaking me for Dragonzbane.....LOL

wot r u wearings
babby

What does free candy have to do with satan?

if u guys dont worship satan, why do white people dress up as ghosts and demons? i dont get it.

[Lucas]

all white people worship satan bawang. thats why they call us white devil. be careful if you dont go to heavens you become white devils meat.

[hskwarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
I believe that you are mistaking me for Dragonzbane.....LOL
wot r u wearings
babby

Ok....wait....i need popcorn and take off my shirt to rub nipple

[bawang]

i hear america was a giant sacrifice to Angra Mainyu, the lord of darkness and spirit of destruction. the native americans were the sacrifice and their blood pleased the dark lord and he granted the white men powers. thats why they honor him every year on haloween.

[Lucas]

and thats the story of why they call us cracker.

[bawang]

i pray to God but he never comes. I call 911 and the devil be here in a minute.

[Lucas]

you know the true might of whitey

[bawang]

i cant wait for global warming. then u white guys all get skin cancer and beautiful black childrens will dance on the streets and entire world have celebration, like at the end of return of the jedi.

[Lucas]

we try to beat the race by mating with all the other brown peoples womens so our babies have melanin

[bawang]

but you will still smell like squished cheese/semen covered dog.

[Lucas]

but you will still smell like squished cheese.

dont forget garlic and dirt! its because white people dont bathe, it gives us demonic possesions and makes us die in the wind.

[hskwarrior]

Bawang,

you're not right. whitey people's smellz like da wet doggiez

[Hardwork108]

wot r u wearings
babby

I am wearing my manly kung fu uniform....:D



if u guys dont worship satan, why do white people dress up as ghosts and demons? i dont get it.

Because they were conned into thinking that Halloween was some kind of a "celebration" by their elites, who have for centuries practiced occult ceremonies. This goes back to the Royal families of Europe and beyond.

High level Masonic rituals also use Satanic symbolism. Taking into account that many world leaders and people in positions of power are high level Masons, then one begins to connect the dots.

Also, do some research on Bohemian Grove, where there are yearly gatherings of business and political elites meet up and dress up in robs and go through sacrifice rituals. Former members of this cult include Ronal Reagan and Richard Nixon to name a few. When you discover that US Presidents' blood lines are linked with the Royal Families of Europe then you begin to connect the dots that will lead you into disturbing conclusions....

Yep, that is what we want our world leaders to do, dress up in robs and go through sacrifice rituals. Then people wonder why we have so much war, famine and death in the world, while at the same time they are conned into believing that this is "human nature"...........

[bawang]

wooooooow man. it all makes sense now. thx

[hskwarrior]

http://www.motifake.com/wave.gif

[Syn7]

all white people worship satan bawang. thats why they call us white devil. be careful if you dont go to heavens you become white devils meat.

dude, youre not supposed to tell them that we are all evil... theyre sposed to think some of us arent daydreaming of cutting everyone up as we are smiling to thier faces...



we arent all evil... i promise... talk amongst yourselves...

[Syn7]

http://www.motifake.com/wave.gif

wtf is that??? lol

dancing jellybean???

[hskwarrior]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view1/1274804/fat-booty-breakdown-o.gif

[Syn7]

I am wearing my manly kung fu uniform....:D




Because they were conned into thinking that Halloween was some kind of a "celebration" by their elites, who have for centuries practiced occult ceremonies. This goes back to the Royal families of Europe and beyond.

High level Masonic rituals also use Satanic symbolism. Taking into account that many world leaders and people in positions of power are high level Masons, then one begins to connect the dots.

Also, do some research on Bohemian Grove, where there are yearly gatherings of business and political elites meet up and dress up in robs and go through sacrifice rituals. Former members of this cult include Ronal Reagan and Richard Nixon to name a few. When you discover that US Presidents' blood lines are linked with the Royal Families of Europe then you begin to connect the dots that will lead you into disturbing conclusions....

Yep, that is what we want our world leaders to do, dress up in robs and go through sacrifice rituals. Then people wonder why we have so much war, famine and death in the world, while at the same time they are conned into believing that this is "human nature"...........

dude....... :o
are you always on???








the reptiles are watching everything you do... be afraid...

[hskwarrior]

wtf is that??? lol

dancing jellybean???

That was ERIC OLSON doing his TAI CHI :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

dude....... :o
are you always on???
Do your own research about occult ceremonies among the elite and high level Masons (which not really a groundbreaking new discovery), as well as the not so unrelated topic of Presidential bloodlines. Then come back to me.

I understand the need to ridicule things that may be taking you out of your own understanding of reality, as well as your emotional and intellectual comfort zone, but I made some serious points!



the reptiles are watching everything you do... be afraid...

Who said anything about reptiles?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

That was ERIC OLSON doing his TAI CHI :rolleyes:

D@mn, I thought that was Dave Ross, inventing yet more glorified kickboxing footwork...:D

[Syn7]

Do your own research about occult ceremonies among the elite and high level Masons (which not really a groundbreaking new discovery), as well as the not so unrelated topic of Presidential bloodlines. Then come back to me.

I understand the need to ridicule things that may be taking you out of your own understanding of reality, as well as your emotional and intellectual comfort zone, but I made some serious points!




Who said anything about reptiles?:confused:

i know about bohemian grove... and i still choose to ridicule your post... you shouldnt assume i dont know about it, i never said either way... dont draw connections that dont exist...

you need to pick your moments... but youre always on...

[Hardwork108]

i know about bohemian grove... and i still choose to ridicule your post... you shouldnt assume i dont know about it,

Ridiculing my post shows that you don't know what is going on.



i never said either way... dont draw connections that dont exist...

The connections are there wether or not, we are strong and intelligent enough to see them, or not!


you need to pick your moments...

I always do, thank you.:)



but youre always on...

Well, traditional kung fu training always keeps me alert. Good thing too.;)

[Dragonzbane76]

your social skills are akin to a rabid dog. I love how you turn every thread into a political rant or a conspiracy theory. I see you still obsess over David R. and now it seems myself. (Scary)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.

i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts

No, but lifiting weight gets you stronger, faster then anything else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

can't believe we are still discussing "tendon strength building" ???

You CAN'T strenghten the tendon in isolation from the muscle, to strenghten the tend one MUST strengthen the muscles.
Period.
Strong muscles = strong tendons.

[David Jamieson]

can't believe we are still discussing "tendon strength building" ???

You CAN'T strenghten the tendon in isolation from the muscle, to strenghten the tend one MUST strengthen the muscles.
Period.
Strong muscles = strong tendons.

Yes, muscle and tendon strengthen concurrently and as tendon is muscle head to be exact.

however, there are particular exercises that focus on tendon strength development more so than other exercises do.

Physiotherapists who are helping people with say, tennis elbow will use these types of exercises once strength is regained following any surgery to the tendons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, muscle and tendon strengthen concurrently and as tendon is muscle head to be exact.

however, there are particular exercises that focus on tendon strength development more so than other exercises do.

Physiotherapists who are helping people with say, tennis elbow will use these types of exercises once strength is regained following any surgery to the tendons.

Physotherapy that involves tendon rehab, typically, involves strenghtening the muscles around the tendon ( stabalizers) AND increasing the "elasticity" of the tendon.
When I did re-hab for tendonitus on my left shulder ( and also for an "inpingment"), that is what I was told and that is what I did and it worked great.

[David Jamieson]

Physotherapy that involves tendon rehab, typically, involves strenghtening the muscles around the tendon ( stabalizers) AND increasing the "elasticity" of the tendon.
When I did re-hab for tendonitus on my left shulder ( and also for an "inpingment"), that is what I was told and that is what I did and it worked great.

They were specific about which would render the best results right?

[Knifefighter]

Yes, muscle and tendon strengthen concurrently and as tendon is muscle head to be exact.

however, there are particular exercises that focus on tendon strength development more so than other exercises do.

Physiotherapists who are helping people with say, tennis elbow will use these types of exercises once strength is regained following any surgery to the tendons.

This is what happens when people who know nothing try to re-interpret what a professional tells them.

Can you do exercises that are more "strengthening" oriented for the entire chain (muscle, tendon, and bone tissue), and less endurance, hypertrophy, or rehab/range of motion oriented? Of course you can, but you cannot focus "more on the tendon" with any type of exercise.

[Frost]

Youknowwho, there is a difference between muscle strength and tendon and strength, you dont have to lift weights to become stronger and win arm wrestlign contests.

i know a old timeer who is a shoemaker, he did not have big muslces at all, but for holding shoes and cutting the thick leather soles for so many year he could break your hand whiule givin you a handshake. its all about the core or tendon strength rather than big bicepts

as soon as i read this post (and i mean as soon as i read this)
i knew
a) who would be posting on this thread
b) exactly where the thread would go
and
c) how long it would become

and like drake i feel dumber for reading it :eek:

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro


You CAN'T strenghten the tendon in isolation from the muscle, to strenghten the tend one MUST strengthen the muscles.

I dont think anyone said anything different, I surely NEVER said you can strenthen one without the other, I simply sadi there is a difference between tendon and muscle strength. The argument is that ironfist and kniefiighter said there is no such thing as tendon strenghtening and this is incorect, but still the argument continues..............

Frost Shut up, contribute something postitve to the forum for once, your a negative nanny, if you have nothing postitve to say about someone then dont say it at all..... didnt your parents teach you that?

[Knifefighter]

sanjuro



I dont think anyone said anything different. The argument is that ironfist and kniefiighter said there is no such thing as tendon strenghtening and this is incorect, but still the argument continues..............

No, we both said you cannot separate strengthening the tendon in isolation from the muscle.

You were the one who inferred that tendon strength was somehow separate from muscular strength.

[Knifefighter]

I simply sadi there is a difference between tendon and muscle strength.

OK, fair enough. How, exactly, are they different?

[EarthDragon]

really? please tell me where I said that exactly.... or what that your interpretation adn understanding of what i said?

[Frost]

sanjuro



I dont think anyone said anything different, I surely NEVER said you can strenthen one without the other, I simply sadi there is a difference between tendon and muscle strength. The argument is that ironfist and kniefiighter said there is no such thing as tendon strenghtening and this is incorect, but still the argument continues..............

Frost Shut up, contribute something postitve to the forum for once, your a negative nanny, if you have nothing postitve to say about someone then dont say it at all..... didnt your parents teach you that?

contribute...i have had this discussion on here for years, people with no actual knowledge of the body just make themselves look stupid (like you) and then spend pages trying to wiggle out of making those stupid comments without ever just admitting they were wrong (like you are doing)

[sanjuro_ronin]

They were specific about which would render the best results right?

Not sure what you mean.

[Knifefighter]

really? please tell me where I said that exactly.... or what that your interpretation adn understanding of what i said?

This would about summarize it:

"I simply sadi there is a difference between tendon and muscle strength."

[David Jamieson]

How, exactly, would one take the muscle out of the equation when "strengthening" the tendon?

Why are you asking the same question again?

You cannot. It has been clearly stated that muscle and tendon strengthen concurrently. However, there are exercises that are more useful specifically to tendon strength development within that modality.

[Knifefighter]

However, there are exercises that are more useful specifically to tendon strength development within that modality.

Please explain those specific exercises and how they would be different.

[EarthDragon]

Frost, ummm shut up

contribute...i have had this discussion on here for years, people with no actual knowledge of the body just make themselves look stupid (like you) and then spend pages trying to wiggle out of making those stupid comments without ever just admitting they were wrong (like you are doing

can you tell me why you would say I have no knowedgle of the body? I am NFPT certified, I am working on my OMD degree, I do tuina, accupressure and medical qigong in a clinic. can you please tell me where your expertice comes from? Stop assuming you look like an a$$ already by your posts you dont need the help.
aruging with peopel like you and knifefighter about medical is like arguing math with a monkey. You have no medical degrees nor pratices so why would anyone take what you say seriously?

I really hate people that argue just to argue.knifiighter, frost and LKFDMC have go to find other hobbies. you guys really need to check yoursevles and post things about what you know not just to argue about nothing. talk about san da or BJJ I will never disagree with you because i dont know enough about it, but for some reason you seem to know everything about anyhing I post.
Seriously stick to what your good at and leave the trolling to trolls, I do think you can be a better person for it.

[Frost]

Frost, ummm shut up


can you tell me why you would say I have no knowedgle of the body? I am NFPT certified, I am working on my OMD degree, I do tuina, accupressure and medical qigong in a clinic. can you please tell me where your expertice comes from? Stop assuming you look like an a$$ already by your posts you dont need the help.
aruging with peopel like you and knifefighter about medical is like arguing math with a monkey. You have no medical degrees nor pratices so why would anyone take what you say seriously?

I really hate people that argue just to argue.knifiighter, frost and LKFDMC have go to find other hobbies. you guys really need to check yoursevles and post things about what you know not just to argue about nothing. talk about san da or BJJ I will never disagree with you because i dont know enough about it, but for some reason you seem to know everything about anyhing I post.
Seriously stick to what your good at and leave the trolling to trolls, I do think you can be a better person for it.


No need ironfist actually pretty much made you look like a tool already, :)

[taai gihk yahn]

tendon "strength", that is, its ability to generate power for functional activity, is predicated on the degree of efficiency with which the tendon can temporarily store and then release KE; as such, plyometrics theoretically utilizes rapid loading / unloading actions in order to target the tendons' ability to functionally load and recoil (there are other aspects to plyo as well, in regards to activating the stretch reflex, so, of course, muscle fibers are being worked as well, certainly one cannot separate the two out); at the same time, regardless of the type of muscle contraction (isometric, concentric or eccentric), tendon is also being worked, but clinically it appears that functional performance in many sports increases as a result of plyo-type activity (due to some degree to specificity of training effect as well as the base-line physiological ones); so the thinking is that tendon is address more directly in this sort of activity;

as an aside, anytime Chinese exercises talk about working fascia, tendon, ligaments and muscles, just bear in mind that for a long time these things were all lumped together as "sinews", without regard for the vastly different functional properties contained in each (some of which are still being further understood)

[EarthDragon]

frost

No need ironfist actually pretty much made you look like a tool already,
In what reguard? pleae explian why you said this?

[Knifefighter]

can you tell me why you would say I have no knowedgle of the body? I am NFPT certified...

NFPT is a $450 home study course with a computer "certification" test at the end.

Being certified in this is like a person who has taken the H&R Block tax preparation course thinking he is a certified public accountant.

Like a CPA, someone who is actually qualified in this field has spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours getting a degree in the field. This also includes hours of practical, hands on application.



aruging with peopel like you and knifefighter about medical is like arguing math with a monkey. You have no medical degrees nor pratices so why would anyone take what you say seriously?

The fact that you think we are arguing in the medical realm shows how clueless you are about applied exercise science. We are calling you out on your cluelessness on exercise science and human performance.

Why do I call you out on what you say? Because I have a degree in exercise science and work in the field of strength and conditioning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but clinically it appears that functional performance in many sports increases as a result of plyo-type activity (due to some degree to specificity of training effect as well as the base-line physiological ones); so the thinking is that tendon is address more directly in this sort of activity;

I have read/heard varying opinions for this.
Some say that it is because of the very quick loading/unloading phase of the plyo work, that the tendons SEEM to be more "isolated" from the muscles.
Other says that because plyo is so "task specififc" that the tendon ( and muscles of course) get developed to a higher degree for said task.

[Knifefighter]

tendon "strength", that is, its ability to generate power for functional activity, is predicated on the degree of efficiency with which the tendon can temporarily store and then release KE; as such, plyometrics theoretically utilizes rapid loading / unloading actions in order to target the tendons' ability to functionally load and recoil (there are other aspects to plyo as well, in regards to activating the stretch reflex, so, of course, muscle fibers are being worked as well, certainly one cannot separate the two out); at the same time, regardless of the type of muscle contraction (isometric, concentric or eccentric), tendon is also being worked, but clinically it appears that functional performance in many sports increases as a result of plyo-type activity (due to some degree to specificity of training effect as well as the base-line physiological ones); so the thinking is that tendon is address more directly in this sort of activity;

Chris,
Do you utilize plyometric work as part of a rehab program for tendon injuries?

[David Jamieson]

Please explain those specific exercises and how they would be different.

I'm sure you know how to read.

Start with yoga maybe as a reference.

Or start with looking up physical therapy exercises recommended for tendon strength development.

Or just remain in your own state of mind.

It doesn't matter to me.

[EarthDragon]

This message is hidden because Knifefighter is on your ignore list.

what part of this dont you understand! I cant read your posts nor do I want to, you are a waste of my time, I only can read what others put in quotes sadi by you and it reminds me of why you are on my ignore list.
I have NEVER EVER w read where you hqve agreed, been nice, been respectful or complimented anyone on here. your a piece of s h it and you always will be.

[Knifefighter]

This message is hidden because Knifefighter is on your ignore list.

what part of this dont you understand! I cant read your posts nor do I want to, you are a waste of my time, I only can read what others put in quotes sadi by you and it reminds me of why you are on my ignore list.
I have NEVER EVER w read where you hqve agreed, been nice, been respectful or complimented anyone on here. your a piece of s h it and you always will be.

That would explain why you continue to make completely clueless posts after I have explained why you are wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

http://www.ehow.com/way_5245178_tendon-strengthening-exercises.html

http://www.criticalbench.com/wrist-grip-forearm-strength.htm

[Drake]

Frost, ummm shut up


can you tell me why you would say I have no knowedgle of the body? I am NFPT certified, I am working on my OMD degree, I do tuina, accupressure and medical qigong in a clinic. can you please tell me where your expertice comes from? Stop assuming you look like an a$$ already by your posts you dont need the help.
aruging with peopel like you and knifefighter about medical is like arguing math with a monkey. You have no medical degrees nor pratices so why would anyone take what you say seriously?

I really hate people that argue just to argue.knifiighter, frost and LKFDMC have go to find other hobbies. you guys really need to check yoursevles and post things about what you know not just to argue about nothing. talk about san da or BJJ I will never disagree with you because i dont know enough about it, but for some reason you seem to know everything about anyhing I post.
Seriously stick to what your good at and leave the trolling to trolls, I do think you can be a better person for it.


So then you aren't a professional, then. You did an online course. How do you equate that with eight years of medical school?

[EarthDragon]

So then you aren't a professional, then. You did an online course. How do you equate that with eight years of medical school?
online course? dont know what you mean here. why would you assume? NFPT is schooling I went through for Golds gym its a written test, not online, and my medical training is through my shifu's

drake is cimbing to the top of the troll ladder one rung at a time.:D

[Drake]

drake is cimbing to the top of the troll ladder one rung at a time.:D

Right. How dare I question your credentials? Classic mumbo jumbo defense. You ask for some real qualifications, you get labeled a troll.

I say again... do you feel an online course equates eight years of medical school?

[Dragonzbane76]

And in the other thread he is questioning dales creds. Lol

[Drake]

and in the other thread he is questioning dales creds. Lol

u r troll rofl

[IronFist]

That would explain why you continue to make completely clueless posts after I have explained why you are wrong.

I lol'd.



10 character limit!

[Dragonzbane76]

u r troll rofl

haha just pointing out the facts, no trolling needed on this one. :)

[IronFist]

Look no offense to anyone in this thread here...

"Personal training" certifications don't mean anything. I myself am a "certified personal trainer." The criteria and the test were ridiculously easy and it was a matter of telling them what the wanted to hear, not launching into a dissertation on physiology. I just got it because I legally required it to be a trainer at my university's gym.

Go visit a gym and talk to the trainers. I guarantee you 9/10 of them will be morons.

This is not to say there aren't any knowledgeable trainers out there. There are. I have met a few.

I got into that field because I loved exercise and working out. And I quit that field because I hated it. Training is a sales driven field, just like being a car salesman or a stockbroker. It's not about what you know, it's about how much you can sell to clients.

My point is that saying you're a "personal trainer" does not establish one as an authority. There is no national governing body. Anyone can do it in a weekend, and the amount of "knowledge" you need is extremely small and limited. Again, this doesn't mean all personal trainers are dumb, because I already said that's not the case yet I'm sure people will still misinterpret this.

The most successful personal trainers are men who look like bodybuilders (to the general public, muscles = knowledgeable about weight lifting) and women who aren't fat (thin = must be smart!) who are charismatic and able to sell and bring in clients.

Anyone who knows me knows I'm about the least charismatic person ever :D I walked out of a personal trainer interview once when he asked me "how are you going to bring in clients." "oh, I'm sorry, I thought I was going to be paid for my knowledge."

Car salesmen aren't mechanics

Stockbrokers aren't traders

Personal trainers aren't sports scientists

[goju]

.

Go visit a gym and talk to the trainers. I guarantee you 9/10 of them will be morons.




and out of shape lol

[taai gihk yahn]

Chris,
Do you utilize plyometric work as part of a rehab program for tendon injuries?

I don't work w that pop at present, I'm pretty much pediatric developmental at present, with the occasional adult back / neck from time to time; but I do use some plyo principles with kids that I treat, since I work a lot on stair negotiation as well as locomotor skills like jumping, hopping and skipping (yes, that's right, I teach kids to skip; but don't fool yourself - i have a Masters of Science from Columbia University - when i skip, it's a lot different than the way any of you all would...), and sometimes w ball handling skills; so it's not injury rehab, more like motor skill acquisition; of course, it's modified for the population and setting, and it's not really the typical application, but it seems to be useful at times (heck, i do Grade 5 mobs / HVLA on kids all the time even though it's typically not done in pediatrics, and it works like a charm for a lot of stuff)

[IronFist]

beef is tough and stringy and has interlocking tendons inside the muscle. pig and lamb have pockets of fat inside the muscle.

How did I miss this post?

You're comparing COW and PIG to HUMAN muscle?

Have you ever seen human muscle? I mean like, in your obviously vast experience of medical training, did you ever take a cadaver lab class? Human muscle doesn't have fat marbled through it (usually), and if it does, it's not all the way through it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

(yes, that's right, I teach kids to skip; but don't fool yourself - i have a Masters of Science from Columbia University - when i skip, it's a lot different than the way any of you all would...),

Very true:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f273/Cristian619/Misc%202/Hot_Jump_Rope.gif

[MasterKiller]

This is how I teach it:

http://i56.tinypic.com/33w40nc.gif

[taai gihk yahn]

Have you ever seen human muscle? I mean like, in your obviously vast experience of medical training, did you ever take a cadaver lab class? Human muscle doesn't have fat marbled through it (usually), and if it does, it's not all the way through it.
And that's why it's not nearly as tasty, blech!

[Hardwork108]

This is how I teach it:

http://i56.tinypic.com/33w40nc.gif

HEy MasterKiller, where can I see the full version of this movie?:D

[MasterKiller]

HEy MasterKiller, where can I see the full version of this movie?:D

lemonparty.org

[Yum Cha]

tendon "strength", that is, its ability to generate power for functional activity, is predicated on the degree of efficiency with which the tendon can temporarily store and then release KE; as such, plyometrics theoretically utilizes rapid loading / unloading actions in order to target the tendons' ability to functionally load and recoil (there are other aspects to plyo as well, in regards to activating the stretch reflex, so, of course, muscle fibers are being worked as well, certainly one cannot separate the two out); at the same time, regardless of the type of muscle contraction (isometric, concentric or eccentric), tendon is also being worked, but clinically it appears that functional performance in many sports increases as a result of plyo-type activity (due to some degree to specificity of training effect as well as the base-line physiological ones); so the thinking is that tendon is address more directly in this sort of activity;

as an aside, anytime Chinese exercises talk about working fascia, tendon, ligaments and muscles, just bear in mind that for a long time these things were all lumped together as "sinews", without regard for the vastly different functional properties contained in each (some of which are still being further understood)


Thanks, makes a lot of sense.

[Knifefighter]

Can you increase power production from "tendon training"? Of course you can. That's what plyometrics are all about. Of course, that's not what we have been talking about. What we've been discussing is strength, not power. If you are talking about "tendon training" to increase power production, that's a different matter.

What's interesting is that the whole plyometric theory of loading the tendon to develop the elastic energy release from the tendon pretty much negates all the arguments for what traditional stance training is supposed to accomplish.

[Yum Cha]

And that's why it's not nearly as tasty, blech!

I beg to differ, bit of crab boil rubbed in, 6 minutes on each side on a hot BBQ. Its all in the prep.

[Yum Cha]

Can you increase power production from "tendon training"? Of course you can. That's what plyometrics are all about. Of course, that's not what we have been talking about. What we've been discussing is strength, not power. If you are talking about "tendon training" to increase power production, that's a different matter.

What's interesting is that the whole plyometric theory of loading the tendon to develop the elastic energy release from the tendon pretty much negates all the arguments for what traditional stance training is supposed to accomplish.

LOL...

Here we are, discussing a topic, some of us, and 4 pages through, someone who actually knows what is going on, and confirms the whole concept of tendon training and clarifies the principles within a western concept, plyometrics, and all the sudden, well, sh1t, that's common knowledge, we were talking about something else....

Cool, I got what I wanted at least.....hope ya'all enjoy yourselves.

I got a steak cooking....

Oh yea, Knife, you're a Sh1t for not opening that jar, when you obviously know what its all about.

[bawang]

traditional stance training has you carry 200 pound weights in horse stance. it makes ur stance solid and make ur legs trong.

i dont know why american kung fu people dont carry weights in horse stance

[YouKnowWho]

You will need strong horse stance to do this.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5954/sct4.jpg

[lkfmdc]

you will need strong horse stance to do this.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5954/sct4.jpg

just married lol :d

[bawang]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

[Violent Designs]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

old school .

[Yum Cha]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

I always wondered how they built the great wall....

[bawang]

outer door stuents never learn past the first stage. thats why it doesnt make sense when they say horse stance builds leg strength. once u look at the further stages of training it makes sense.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

than ancient chinese secret of taking two small bricks and making them one BIG BRICK

[hskwarrior]

outer door stuents never learn past the first stage. thats why it doesnt make sense when they say horse stance builds leg strength. once u look at the further stages of training it makes sense.

HMMMMM....i've read this somewhere here on the forum. it sounds like....i think your really are.......

oh never mind....i have fun reading this stuff

[bawang]

u guys should get your senior students to do horse stance with a weight vest or barbell on the back.

[lkfmdc]

u guys should get your senior students to do horse stance with a transsexual on their back.

Dressed like a Japanese school girl!

[Yum Cha]

u guys should get your senior students to do horse stance with a weight vest or barbell on the back.

That horse stance is wrong, knees should be in, toes too. Thighs pointed straight down.

Silly boatmen never learned how to fight on the ground, only how to sit over a pit toilet when constipated.

That's why Pak Mei pai killed them all.

[Hardwork108]

traditional stance training has you carry 200 pound weights in horse stance. it makes ur stance solid and make ur legs trong.

i dont know why american kung fu people dont carry weights in horse stance

Most "American people" (the MMA kung fu-ist types, that is) don't even train the horse stance, without weights, let alone with weights, because they don't believe nor understand TCMA roots, including Internal and body unity principles, hence they prefer to hop around and use "pretend kung fu" as part of their MMA arsenals......:D

[lkfmdc]

That horse stance is wrong, knees should be in, toes too. Thighs pointed straight down.

Silly boatmen never learned how to fight on the ground, only how to sit over a pit toilet when constipated.

That's why Pak Mei pai killed them all.

Pak Mei got killed by an fruity guy who fought like he was embroidering, meh

[Yum Cha]

Pak Mei got killed by an fruity guy who fought like he was embroidering, meh

****, I thought it was a sexy blonde with a samuri sword....

and he was like 250 years old, the old perv let her do it....

[bawang]

i do horse stance wit 40 pound weight vest wit a medicine ball. i feel like my feets very stable after i do it

[Yum Cha]

i do horse stance wit 40 pound weight vest wit a medicine ball. i feel like my feets very stable after i do it

You lift weights, U r Trong....

[lkfmdc]

****, I thought it was a sexy blonde with a samuri sword....



that was Bawang in a whig :eek:

[bawang]

i look like this in real life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivJ0FdVncc

[Yum Cha]

i look like this in real life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivJ0FdVncc


U r Trong and Manly too!

Some here think I am wimminz. Can u hlep me?

If you killed Pak Mei, then you are my master....

[Hardwork108]

lemonparty.org

:eek:

I had no idea that you were a senior citizen, and that you knew Frost and Dragonzbane personally....:confused:

[SPJ]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

so we start with the right posture

we then add standing on poles and weights and more weights.

sometimes the teacher would stand on your thighs and check your posture

--

those were and still are the days

---

:cool:

[Oso]

stopped at post 80...wrong forum too, btw. :)