kung fu vs bjj

[MysteriousPower]

I think the match was pretty even. The kung fu guy had good striking and no takedown defense. The bjj guy did not have that much of a stand up game but was able to take the kung fu guy down.

If the competitors were allowed to stay on the ground this thread might have ended up differently.

A combination of training methods would have benefitted both men in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MPHySHED8

[Dragonzbane76]

not really a true representation of BJJ. boxing gloves on and all. Also BJJ take downs are not the best in the world, he looked like a bull coming out of the shoot. Game plan of BJJ=get to the ground no matter what. Maybe he's working on his stand up, but he didn't try to go with the guy in the stand up terms.

don't know, anyways, hopefully both took something away from the session.

[MysteriousPower]

not really a true representation of BJJ. boxing gloves on and all. Also BJJ take downs are not the best in the world, he looked like a bull coming out of the shoot. Game plan of BJJ=get to the ground no matter what. Maybe he's working on his stand up, but he didn't try to go with the guy in the stand up terms.

don't know, anyways, hopefully both took something away from the session.


At first I thought one guy was just striking and the other guy was trying take downs but then the bjj guy started striking as well.

Brock Lesnar looked similar in his last two fights like a bull coming forward.

[Dragonzbane76]

honestly didn't watch all the way through. I figured the BJJ guy would get tired doing that after a bit.

yeah Lesnar comes out like a bull and we can see that a lot of times it works and sometimes it doesn't. :)

[hskwarrior]

Both fighters did well. I think CLF does good at this level. But, i feel if CLF was to incorporate more ground game we'd be even more solid than what we have today.

[Dragonzbane76]

i feel if CLF was to incorporate more ground game we'd be even more solid than what we have today.

a lot of traditional styles would be more solid if they did that.

[hskwarrior]

a lot of traditional styles would be more solid if they did that.

True. I know all systems have the potential, but since CLF is the only system i've extensively trained in i'd like to see it evolve with the times as well. It worked awesomely in the past with our elders but the past was a totally different time in the respect of where their mindsets were. My elders would never show you gung fu unless they had to hurt you with it. other wise you'd never know they knew anything. so sports fighting was definitely out of the question.

But CLF as well as other systems need to evolve. The only threat in my opinion to a good stand up game is a better ground game.

Question: As a system currently evolves into the next level can it still be called a TRADITIONAL system?

Additionally, i feel that IF you are going to become a fighter, then you don't pick up forms. And if you're not going to fight but want to learn a traditional art for personal reasons then forms has its place. it can be the BALANCED aspect of TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question: As a system currently evolves into the next level can it still be called a TRADITIONAL system?

Yep, as long as it hold true to ITS tradition.
If a system was developed in a tradition of being "combat effective" then ANYTHING that is done to keep it that way is keeping it traditional.

[Frost]

i wonder what posessed the BJJ guy to agree to a fight with no real clinch allowed and no ground stuff allowed either :confused:

As for the bull rush if the clinch is not allowedand he cant do a low double (ie knee to the ground which it looks like wasnt allowed in the rules either that or he cant shoot properly) then the bull rush is probable his only option

CLF guy looked to have good stand up, but i wonder how much he would have teed off like that ig the clinch and the ground had been allowed

[hskwarrior]

Yep, as long as it hold true to ITS tradition.
If a system was developed in a tradition of being "combat effective" then ANYTHING that is done to keep it that way is keeping it traditional.

Ok, so just to be clear. You're saying that if CLF now consisted of CLF mixed with let's say BJJ or even Japanese JJ it would still be considered a TRADITIONAL system?
If you are saying this, then the fate of TCMA isn't really endangered as being obsolete.

[Knifefighter]

Unless the standup guy was specifically trying to work his takedown defense and the grappler was specifically attempting to work takedowns against a striker, that match was a complete waste of time.

[hskwarrior]

i wonder what posessed the BJJ guy to agree to a fight with no real clinch allowed and no ground stuff allowed either

Perhaps because both systems have take downs but staying on the ground would be UNFAIR and an UNEVEN match. shoot, i've love to see BJJ vs TCMA minus the rolling on the ground. it would be fair and just and the best fight would win. but its like a two legged person fighting a one legged one. LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, so just to be clear. You're saying that if CLF now consisted of CLF mixed with let's say BJJ or even Japanese JJ it would still be considered a TRADITIONAL system?
If you are saying this, then the fate of TCMA isn't really endangered as being obsolete.

–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to tradition.
2.
handed down by tradition.
3.
in accordance with tradition.

Lets not make the word mean what it doesn't.
What is the tradition of CLF?
Was it not a mix of systems?

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps because both systems have take downs but staying on the ground would be UNFAIR and an UNEVEN match. shoot, i've love to see BJJ vs TCMA minus the rolling on the ground. it would be fair and just and the best fight would win. but its like a two legged person fighting a one legged one. LOL

Having a pure BJJ guy be able to only do standup and quick takedowns is about as fair as starting the fight on the ground and then stopping and restarting back on the ground each time they come to a standing position.

The only thing that kept the CLF guy from getting his @ss handed to him was the fact that the fight was restarted anytime it went to grappling range.

[hskwarrior]

Lets not make the word mean what it doesn't.
What is the tradition of CLF?
Was it not a mix of systems?

i totally feel you. and you're right. it's a shame that there are some SIFU's out there that fail to see this.

[MysteriousPower]

Having a pure BJJ guy be able to only do standup and quick takedowns is about as fair as starting the fight on the ground and then stopping and restarting back on the ground each time they come to a standing position.

That is a good point.

[hskwarrior]

Having a pure BJJ guy be able to only do standup and quick takedowns is about as fair as starting the fight on the ground and then stopping and restarting back on the ground each time they come to a standing position.

Then there should be a happy medium. However as it stands, GUNG FU vs BJJ or whatever ground fighting only system you may have is a very uneven match and should not be held IMHO. It will stay that way until gung fu evolves to include a good ground game.

[Knifefighter]

Then there should be a happy medium. However as it stands, GUNG FU vs BJJ or whatever ground fighting only system you may have is a very uneven match and should not be held IMHO. It will stay that way until gung fu evolves to include a good ground game.

No, it's fair. Simply keep going at all ranges.

[hskwarrior]

No, it's fair. Simply keep going at all ranges.

Then it should be fair for the BJJ guy to do only stand up fighting once and a while to work THAT range.

[Knifefighter]

Then it should be fair for the BJJ guy to do only stand up fighting once and a while to work THAT range.

About as "fair" as having the standup guy do a ground fighting only match.

[hskwarrior]

About as "fair" as having the standup guy do a ground fighting only match.

Exactly....FINALLY WE AGREE :p

[Knifefighter]

Exactly....FINALLY WE AGREE :p

The most fair way is to have all ranges.

[Dragonzbane76]

The most fair way is to have all ranges.

the most fair and realistic.

[Frost]

Perhaps because both systems have take downs but staying on the ground would be UNFAIR and an UNEVEN match. shoot, i've love to see BJJ vs TCMA minus the rolling on the ground. it would be fair and just and the best fight would win. but its like a two legged person fighting a one legged one. LOL

how was that fair, BJJ is a ground fighting art with some takedowns, CLF is a striking art, how is making the fight a striking only event fair?:confused:

Its like putting in the CLF guy in a grappling only match and calling that fair.....afterall both styles have takedowns right:rolleyes

[hskwarrior]

The most fair way is to have all ranges.

I agree again. but we know its not the case YET.

[Knifefighter]

I agree again. but we know its not the case YET.

How is that not fair?

[hskwarrior]

how was that fair, BJJ is a ground fighting art with some takedowns, CLF is a striking art, how is making the fight a striking only event fair?

WTF? Can the SF 49'ers beat the newly crowned WORLD CHAMPS SF GIANTS at baseball? would that be a fair game?

[hskwarrior]

How is that not fair?

go reread what i wrote. you'll see that you twisted my words. NP. it's there.

[hskwarrior]

Its like putting in the CLF guy in a grappling only match and calling that fair.....afterall both styles have takedowns right:rolleyes

yeah you got that right. Both styles have takedowns. however while one style's specialty is laying on his back the others is standing on his feet. unless there is an even balance between the two there will never be a happy medium. APPLES AND ORANGES. so when you roll your eyes at everything make sure they don't get stuck in the position. LMAO

[Frost]

WTF? Can the SF 49'ers beat the newly crowned WORLD CHAMPS SF GIANTS at baseball? would that be a fair game?

this is fighting not two different sports, if you dont want to allow a range of fighting thats fine but dont pretend its not handicapping a guy who specializes in that range

[Frost]

yeah you got that right. Both styles have takedowns. however while one style's specialty is laying on his back the others is standing on his feet. unless there is an even balance between the two there will never be a happy medium. APPLES AND ORANGES. so when you roll your eyes at everything make sure they don't get stuck in the position. LMAO

there is a hapy medium, its called MMA and it usually goes something like this:

"hey you start in that corner and ill start in this, ill try to take you down and beat you up on the ground you try to stop me and beat me standing, hows that for fair? :)

[Knifefighter]

yeah you got that right. Both styles have takedowns. however while one style's specialty is laying on his back the others is standing on his feet. unless there is an even balance between the two there will never be a happy medium. APPLES AND ORANGES. so when you roll your eyes at everything make sure they don't get stuck in the position. LMAO

If your art is standing but you can't keep someone from taking you down, something is seriously lacking in your standing art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If your art is standing but you can't keep someone from taking you down, something is seriously lacking in your standing art.

Dale has opened the REAL can of worms and those worms are cannibals !!

[hskwarrior]

this is fighting not two different sports

LMAO....MMA is sports fighting. BJJ is also apart of SPORTS fighting.

this is why you don't see baseball playing against football teams. Real fighting is not a sport. real fighting has no ring, gloves, ref's a time limit, rounds. We're talking about sports fighting.

[hskwarrior]

If your art is standing but you can't keep someone from taking you down, something is seriously lacking in your standing art.

and if you can't stand up and defend yourself on your feet then there is something seriously lacking in your rolling around on the floor. we can go back and forth like this for days. it is what it is.

[Frost]

LMAO....MMA is sports fighting. BJJ is also apart of SPORTS fighting.

this is why you don't see baseball playing against football teams. Real fighting is not a sport. real fighting has no ring, gloves, ref's a time limit, rounds. We're talking about sports fighting.

LoL I must be a mind reader as i saw this coming a mile off, just out of interest did anyone else think it was just a matter of time before the real fighting argument reared its head?

[hskwarrior]

LoL I must be a mind reader as i saw this coming a mile off, just out of interest did anyone else think it was just a matter of time before the real fighting argument reared its head?

don't be stupid. LOL....

[Knifefighter]

and if you can't stand up and defend yourself on your feet then there is something seriously lacking in your rolling around on the floor. we can go back and forth like this for days. it is what it is.

Umm... no. If you are a ground specialist and that is where you do your damage, that's exactly what you want to be doing- bringing the fight to the ground.

If you are a standup specialist, your goal should be to keep someone from taking you down.

[Knifefighter]

LMAO....MMA is sports fighting. BJJ is also apart of SPORTS fighting.

this is why you don't see baseball playing against football teams. Real fighting is not a sport. real fighting has no ring, gloves, ref's a time limit, rounds. We're talking about sports fighting.


BJJ is multi-dimensional. There is the pure grappling aspect, there is the MMA aspect, there is the vale tudo aspect, and there is the street aspect.

[hskwarrior]

BJJ is multi-dimensional. There is the pure grappling aspect, there is the MMA aspect, there is the vale tudo aspect, and there is the street aspect.

ok thanks.

oh just curious....what's the street aspect?

[Knifefighter]

ok thanks.

oh just curious....what's the street aspect?

More ballistic joint locks with multilple breaks on the same joint structure, using the ground as a "slamming object", biting, eye gouging, finger holds in positional hand-fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't forget the Turkish oil check and the Pakastani Drill press !

[hskwarrior]

More ballistic joint locks with multilple breaks on the same joint structure, using the ground as a "slamming object", biting, eye gouging, finger holds in positional hand-fighting.

awesome :)

[ShaolinDan]

Traditions always evolve. None of our religions are practiced the way they were 1000 years ago, but they are still part of a continuing tradition. Same with MA or anything else (I think). No problem's with making changes as I see it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RONG

most religions are practiced exactly liek 1000 years ago

Were you there?
:D

[bawang]

noe but buddhism they be reading the same book chanting the same things for 2000 years

only wite pples like to change religion. next year u guys be worshipping giant statues of vaginas or something

[sanjuro_ronin]

noe but buddhism they be reading the same book chanting the same things for 2000 years

That's what they want you to believe...
*looks around for ninjas*

[bawang]

bjj looks just like pankration. fighting has never changed.
all mma guys need to do now is fight naked and play flutes before the fight

[MysteriousPower]

bjj looks just like pankration. fighting has never changed.
all mma guys need to do now is fight naked and play flutes before the fight

And then have sex with hot Greek women after!

[bawang]

what? are you gay or something. man wtf.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And then have sex with hot Greek women after!

Don't know much about the greeks do you?
:D

[TenTigers]

And then have sex with hot Greek women after!
more like hot greek men. Did you ever see th old paintings of pankrationists? Nekkid an' oiled up like they were two women in a biker rally doing hot oil wrestling...only with plumbing.

[TenTigers]

. next year u guys be worshipping giant statues of vaginas or something
yeah. like we don't already...

[Violent Designs]

awesome :)

no reaason why u 2 can't get along, get a room and make babies.

[ShaolinDan]

Right. Exactly. Always the same and always different. :)

[hskwarrior]

Don't know much about the greeks do you?

oh yes you do. i heard you speak greek :D

[hskwarrior]

no reaason why u 2 can't get along, get a room and make babies.

Nah, i'm not into white men. they got no rhythm. LMAO.....

[Dragonzbane76]

Originally Posted by bawang
RONG

most religions are practiced exactly liek 1000 years ago

have to check under my bed for that fanatical puritan witch burner tonight if they are still around. :p

[SPJ]

I think that you may find statues of 3 monkeys in many buddhist and chan/zen gardens.

the monkey covering ears, hear no evils.

the monkey covering eyes, see no evils.

the monkey covering the mouth, speak of no evils.

---

[chud]

First thing I noticed when I watched the vid was that it took place in a ring. If a BJJ guy ever challenged me, I would make him meet me in the street or in a park, but not a in a ring. Why play their game? Combat is combat, sport is sport.

[Knifefighter]

First thing I noticed when I watched the vid was that it took place in a ring. If a BJJ guy ever challenged me, I would make him meet me in the street or in a park, but not a in a ring. Why play their game? Combat is combat, sport is sport.

If you can't win in a ring, you probably can't win on th3 str33t.

[goju]

First thing I noticed when I watched the vid was that it took place in a ring. If a BJJ guy ever challenged me, I would make him meet me in the street or in a park, but not a in a ring. Why play their game? Combat is combat, sport is sport.

why get your ass beat on the unforgiving side walk? at least let him maul you on a nice comfy mat.

[Frost]

why get your ass beat on the unforgiving side walk? at least let him maul you on a nice comfy mat.

lol true when people moan about a ring or the padded floor it always makes me smile, afterall its usually not the grappler who lands first they usually have a nice soft body to break their fall

[Violent Designs]

Grappler takes YOU down which means the one getting slammed into concrete is YOU.

HE'S SLAMMING THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD ONTO THE HARD CONCRETE GROUND.

HE'S SLAMMING THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD ONTO THE HARD CONCRETE GROUND, AND YOU CAN'T DO A **** THING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD IS BLEEDING PROFUSELY AND YOU'VE JUST SUFFERED A CONCUSSION OVER LEVEL 9000.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can't win in a ring, you probably can't win on th3 str33t.

You know, it STILL amazes me that people haven't figured that out yet !

[Frost]

You know, it STILL amazes me that people haven't figured that out yet !

hi this is KFO forums you must be new here :)

[MysteriousPower]

Don't know much about the greeks do you?
:D

I have heard the male Greeks wrestled with each other and then "wrestled" each other in private. I am just thinking of that hot babe from the movie 300 who was the King's wife. I am sure she is not Greek in real life but hey I can fantasize.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have heard the male Greeks wrestled with each other and then "wrestled" each other in private. I am just thinking of that hot babe from the movie 300 who was the King's wife. I am sure she is not Greek in real life but hey I can fantasize.

It was very common for Greek man to engage in ****sexual acts with men and simply procreate with their wives, quite a few reason for that but that is a different thread.
One of the more common things was for an older man to take under his wing a younger man, teach him the ways of the greek warrior and in return, well...
It was part of their society so it can't really be viewed OUTSIDE that context.

[MysteriousPower]

It was very common for Greek man to engage in ****sexual acts with men and simply procreate with their wives, quite a few reason for that but that is a different thread.
One of the more common things was for an older man to take under his wing a younger man, teach him the ways of the greek warrior and in return, well...
It was part of their society so it can't really be viewed OUTSIDE that context.

I would love to ask a Greek guy about this sometime soon. I wonder if he would get angry at me. "Hey, buddy. I heard your male ancestors really really liked each other. Sanjuro said so...so get mad at him. Any truth to it?"

[goju]

my half sisteres fathers side of the family is from athens and yes greeks get mad if you make fun of the whole gay thing their culture so proudly displayed centuries ago

they like iran would like to think everyones strait in their country:D

[goju]

Grappler takes YOU down which means the one getting slammed into concrete is YOU.

HE'S SLAMMING THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD ONTO THE HARD CONCRETE GROUND.

HE'S SLAMMING THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD ONTO THE HARD CONCRETE GROUND, AND YOU CAN'T DO A **** THING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD IS BLEEDING PROFUSELY AND YOU'VE JUST SUFFERED A CONCUSSION OVER LEVEL 9000.


no no no you fool when you take a grappler off a mat his brain just shut downs and he looks at you dumbfounded! thats when you unleash your flurry of hakka mantis strikes to the throat.

[pateticorecords]

It was very common for Greek man to engage in ****sexual acts with men and simply procreate with their wives, quite a few reason for that but that is a different thread.
One of the more common things was for an older man to take under his wing a younger man, teach him the ways of the greek warrior and in return, well...
It was part of their society so it can't really be viewed OUTSIDE that context.

One of the main reasons behind it was so that soldiers/warriors would form a unifying bond and protect each other in battle... it wasn't really about sex per se it was about love...

though sapphic love is more appealing for me to watch:) lol

[pateticorecords]

If you can't win in a ring, you probably can't win on th3 str33t.

hahaha.... many, many pro fighters do well in the ring and have gotten their a**e* handed to them in a street fight.
Remember- sports are sports... they have rules... the street doesn't

[David Jamieson]

Catamites were a part of life in ancient days in all western cultures. It existed in various forms in eastern culture as well.

And yes, it was a very different world from that which we live in today.

[Knifefighter]

hahaha.... many, many pro fighters do well in the ring and have gotten their a**e* handed to them in a street fight.
Remember- sports are sports... they have rules... the street doesn't

I think the point was, if you can't beat a guy in a ring when he is following rules to prevent him from sending you to the hospital, how can you expect to beat the same guy on the street when he doesn't have to follow any rules?

[David Jamieson]

hahaha.... many, many pro fighters do well in the ring and have gotten their a**e* handed to them in a street fight.
Remember- sports are sports... they have rules... the street doesn't

Alex Gong was shot to death while trying to stop a hit and run driver.

Guy was a great ring fighter. Makes no diff against a gun, or a knife or anything you are mentally unprepared for.

His mistake was in thinking he was strong where he had no idea what the variables were. No disrespect to the guy for wanting to do what he thought was right.

the truth to me is this:

ring or street, it doesn't matter, it is what is in the person themselves. What is it they will to do? Where is it they want to go. What do they do to get there?

[Lucas]

all this talk about gun fighting. how many pro gun fighters do you know? all that target drillng is going to get you killed with your stupid gun forms when you get in a real actual shoot out.

are you assuming your opponent will never have a gun too?

how much realism training do you do with your firearms? if you arent in the military or law enforcement what are YOU doing to assure you can use your gun well in an actual fire fight.

its like drilling all your MA and never sparring. do you spar with your guns?

HINT: im only half joking

[Yum Cha]

all this talk about gun fighting. how many pro gun fighters do you know? all that target drillng is going to get you killed with your stupid gun forms when you get in a real actual shoot out.

are you assuming your opponent will never have a gun too?

how much realism training do you do with your firearms? if you arent in the military or law enforcement what are YOU doing to assure you can use your gun well in an actual fire fight.

its like drilling all your MA and never sparring. do you spar with your guns?

HINT: im only half joking

I was thinking the same thing, unless you are shooting back at a live, resisting opponent shooting at you, how can you call it training?

And paintballers, what a bunch of LARPers.

HINT: I am FULLY joking....

[Dragonzbane76]

hahaha.... many, many pro fighters do well in the ring and have gotten their a**e* handed to them in a street fight.
Remember- sports are sports... they have rules... the street doesn't

I loled.....

anyways DJ pointed out and I do stand by it as well, if you want real self defense buy a gun... The great equalizer of any confrontation physical.

and as someone pointed out, learn how to use it, take a class go shooting, etc.

[Lucas]

'god created man, samuel colt made them equals'

:eek:

[Yum Cha]

'god created man, samuel colt made them equals'

:eek:

Ever seen mosad close quarter gun training, their work within the 7 metre zone where a Knife is supposed to be superior?

:D:D:D

[Lucas]

I havnt but I you can bet your ass i will be!

thx :D

[Violent Designs]

Ever seen mosad close quarter gun training, their work within the 7 metre zone where a Knife is supposed to be superior?

:D:D:D

7 meters is roughly 21 feet, I would still feel quite "uncomfortable" wielding a knife against someone with a gun and knows how to shoot.

[Yum Cha]

7 meters is roughly 21 feet, I would still feel quite "uncomfortable" wielding a knife against someone with a gun and knows how to shoot.

There are some good videos on YouTube that demonstrate the 7 metre issue.

[Knifefighter]

There are some good videos on YouTube that demonstrate the 7 metre issue.

The 7 meter issue does not apply to anyone who knows how to use firearms. Those vids are completely inapplicable to someone trained in firearms usage.

[Dragonzbane76]

'god created man, samuel colt made them equals'

american proverb..:)

[Yum Cha]

The 7 meter issue does not apply to anyone who knows how to use firearms. Those vids are completely inapplicable to someone trained in firearms usage.

Yep, pretty much what my Isreali buddy showed me. There were some vids of German Police training on youtube that simply demonstrated it, but didn't show anything more than backstepping draw...