Kungs / skills / feats of strength are they needed?

[ginosifu]

We all have read about or seen videos of or even practiced ourselves, those skills of legend. Iron Hand, Fingers that can break through a watermelon, walking along the edge of a bamboo basket, Iron Body, Dim Mak, fingers that can break a walnut etc etc etc.

In todays modern society the average person does not have the time to invest in these type of specialty skills. As teachers do you feel the need to teach these skills to the average person? In my personal experience, to truly master these skills a person needs to spend 2-3 daily practice sessions (morning, noon and night), 7 days a week, 365 days a year for a minimum of 5-10 years for each skill.

I have been training for over 20 years and all of my teachers have expressed the fact they have spent this amount of time perfecting their skills.

If you are a sifu, then I think you should spend time to perfect whatever skills you have. However, I feel that the average student can not or will not spend the time needed to perfect these specialty skills.

Your thoughts

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

5 years are going to pass by anyway...

You might as well gain the skill.

[bawang]

In todays modern society the average person does not have the time to invest in these type of specialty skills.
if your students dont do these what do they do in kung fu class?

[Dragonzbane76]

it's easier to buy a gun to defend yourself and probably save your life in a better fashion than learn MA's. These things you speak of are dying and hanging on. It is sad to see such things go to the way side, but they always live on in the evolution of things.

[bawang]

it's easier to buy a gun to defend yourself and probably save your life in a better fashion than learn MA's.

the rifle is part of the traditional 18 weapons.

[ginosifu]

if your students dont do these what do they do in kung fu class?


Fighting drills / self defense / Shuai Jiao / San Shou !

Bawang: we do normal strength stuff like push ups / kiu sao / Horse stance etc but this just bare bone basics.

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

it's easier to buy a gun to defend yourself and probably save your life in a better fashion than learn MA's. These things you speak of are dying and hanging on. It is sad to see such things go to the way side, but they always live on in the evolution of things.


Sure, but if a guy is messing with you in a bar, you might want to just punch his lights out, instead of executing him.

...moderation. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

haha i'm not talking of the i'm in a bar issue... you have witnesses in a bar. if the guy takes it to far you can file charges. Or try your hand on beating the crap outta them, and then get charged yourself.

anyways, i'm talking of self defense. I'm not going to execute someone for starting a fight. Now if they are on my property in the middle of the night and have no right to be there and give no indication of reasoning well it's a little different.

[bawang]

Fighting drills / self defense / Shuai Jiao / San Shou !

Bawang: we do normal strength stuff like push ups / kiu sao / Horse stance etc but this just bare bone basics.

ginosifu

nice man u guys have good training for class. but i think iron hand and iron shirt are very important for kung fu. theyre just fancy names for basic conditioning skills they very important and theyre not esoteric or specialist at all mang.

[bawang]

i think the problem is time. when i have summer vacation i do some training and warmup, bam half the day is gone.

[Lucas]

i dont carry a gun with me. i cant leave myself in a situation where i have to rely on a gun, because if you dont have it on you, and you put all your eggs in that basket, well...

even people who do carry guns, if you say you have access to it at all times, without exception, you are either lying, in some field of law enforcement, or you are paranoid as all hell. but for a portion of people who do carry, you still wont have it on you at all times.

i agree it is important to know how to weild a variety of firearms, knives and assorted objects as weapons.

from a self defence standpoint you must address the aspect of being unarmed.

now with that frame of mind, do you need specialty skills? no.

do they add a certain degree of benefit if you are unarmed? yes. depending on the skill and your level of development and ability to apply.

soemthing like iron skills is great because its generally applied without thought, it just is part of your body.

[bawang]

i tink its sad that many kung fu people can play with swords, but if u mention gun they get scared. they dont see swords as weapons but as toys.
gun is part of traditional 18 chinese weapons and firearm should be continuation of chinese martial arts.

if u want to evolve kung fu firearm training is the next step

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, but if a guy is messing with you in a bar, you might want to just punch his lights out, instead of executing him.

...moderation. :)

The pussification of real MA (tm).

[ginosifu]

now with that frame of mind, do you need specialty skills? no.

do they add a certain degree of benefit if you are unarmed? yes. depending on the skill and your level of development and ability to apply.

soemthing like iron skills is great because its generally applied without thought, it just is part of your body.

Thanks for the input Lucas. Would feel the students can better benefit doing more self defense / fighting drills while they are in class instead of trying to teach them specialty skills?

Example:

I used to force all my students to do IP at the end of class hoping it would spark some interest, but after 5 years or so not even 1 person stuck with it. So I have stopped now and throw hands up in the air and give up.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

i dont carry a gun with me. i cant leave myself in a situation where i have to rely on a gun, because if you dont have it on you, and you put all your eggs in that basket, well...

even people who do carry guns, if you say you have access to it at all times, without exception, you are either lying, in some field of law enforcement, or you are paranoid as all hell. but for a portion of people who do carry, you still wont have it on you at all times.
.

Someone once said to me,"I can go to my car and get my gun."
I said, "I have my Martial Arts with me now." -end of discussion.

btw-it wasn't a heated argument or a fight, it was a just discussion.

[bawang]

Thanks for the input Lucas. Would feel the students can better benefit doing more self defense / fighting drills while they are in class instead of trying to teach them specialty skills?

Example:

I used to force all my students to do IP at the end of class hoping it would spark some interest, but after 5 years or so not even 1 person stuck with it. So I have stopped now and throw hands up in the air and give up.

ginosifu

wow man that sucks balls sry to hear that. u need new students

[ginosifu]

Lets re ask the question:
How many teachers out there teach specialty skills such as Iron Palm / Light Skill or other Kung's? What is your opinion of the modern student? What success have you had? Is it worth your time and effort to teach?

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

Lets re ask the question:
How many teachers out there teach specialty skills such as Iron Palm / Light Skill or other Kung's? What is your opinion of the modern student? What success have you had? Is it worth your time and effort to teach?

ginosifu
Iron Palm is saved for seniors-
basic iron body is part of regular training
as is sam sing
and stance training
lien gung (jars, sandbag toss and catch, rings, water dividing gung, etc) is taught, but not stressed as it takes up a great amount of time and eats into the class.
I will probably add more to classes until they start to do it on their own

[YouKnowWho]

Lets re ask the question:
How many teachers out there teach specialty skills such as ..

I teach "tree hanging" to develop strong head lock. Some of my students can make their opponent to tape out just by a simple head lock.

[IronWeasel]

I teach "tree hanging" to develop strong head lock. Some of my students can make their opponent to tape out just by a simple head lock.



...........http://cybernetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/duct-tape-to-wall.jpg



He taped out :)

[Lucas]

Thanks for the input Lucas. Would feel the students can better benefit doing more self defense / fighting drills while they are in class instead of trying to teach them specialty skills?

Example:

I used to force all my students to do IP at the end of class hoping it would spark some interest, but after 5 years or so not even 1 person stuck with it. So I have stopped now and throw hands up in the air and give up.

ginosifu

its my opinion that until someone shows through practice they value and are seriously interested in what ever specialty skills that are being offered, i would keep them open and available for teaching but i would focus the group time around general conditioning and drills and fighting. i would however have periodic demonstrations to keep the idea fresh and regularly on display. kind of like a 'look what i can do that you cant, sure bet you wish you could' kind of thing.

maybe even have an advanced student(s) working on specialty skills during certain classes so everyone is exposed to a person doing the training on a regular basis.

its tricky though it really just depends on how you run your classes. personally i like the idea of making everyone do it regardless, but we know that doesnt really work in usa...sadly

[YouKnowWho]

'look what i can do that you cant, sure bet you wish you could'.

Agree 100% there. Showing by example is very important. If students can see the result, they will have motivitation to train. Many years ago when I taught my UT Austin informal class. During the 1st class of each semester, I would take down all 50 new students by using just a single throw. When I taught that throw in the class, everybody would love it and trained very hard. The UT Austin SC team used that single move to defeat Ohio State University SC team 2 years in a roll. Even OSU SC team coach asked me, "Why did your guys use the same move?"

[teetsao]

this si why i would never have an"open to the public" school. you may make money on your students,but most of them are wasting your time you put into them. i personally beleive you should train as many of the original skills as possible. some peple can specialise in specific skills,like not everyone will obtain the black hand or want to put time into it,but everyone can obtain decent iron palm skills in a year. most of the gungs mention only take about a year to develop to a pretty good degree. as they were battle feild arts,no one would train a gung that took 5-10 years to develop as the next battle could be around the corner, so the skills had to manifest results quickly. some of the more esoteric skills developed by scholars or doctors off the original combat skills are the ones that take extended periods to develop.
these are sklls i will not let die. they all have their place in your training, but you have to be disciplined enough to train them. what else would you be doing anyway, wasting time on the computer posting???
train hard everyday for it may be your last
oh and yeah,bawang, you are correct, learn to use a rifle and a hand gun proficiently. being from the south it is our life style,i got my first rifle at 9, my son at 6 and my daughter at 7. it is very important to learn these valueabble tools as they may one day preserve your life, and the life you and your family enjoy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Specialty skills are NOT needed, many a great fighter out there without any of them.
Of course we do tend to look at the elite as examples, the champion boxers and MT fighters and such, so perhaps that is NOT the correct view.
To be a champion, to be elite, one is not only dedicated and talented by a genetic freak if you will.
The real question is, can these skills make a difference with Mr.Average, do these skills actually pay off?
does 5 years of IP (for example) coupled with MA training make a difference?

[YouKnowWho]

Specialty skills are NOT needed, ... do these skills actually pay off?

In any Judo match that 99% of the time one of your opponent's hands willl grab on your upper lapel. That hand is given to you for free but most beginner just don't know how to take advantage on it. If you go to the woods and use your left hand to grab a tree branch. You then use your right shoulder to drop and break that tree branch. After you have broken 1,000 tree branches with your shoulder dropping, next time your Judo friend gets you a left upper lapel hold, you use left hand to hold on his grabbing arm, you then drop your right shoulder on to his upper arm, you can take your opponent down effortless. That's the "pay off" for your special training.

If you want to be better than average, you will need some special skill.

[teetsao]

youknowwoh; excellent,excellent,most excellent.

[Lucas]

those poor trees....

;)

[ginosifu]

Just finished a IP session: feel better now!


this si why i would never have an"open to the public" school. you may make money on your students,but most of them are wasting your time you put into them. i personally beleive you should train as many of the original skills as possible. some peple can specialise in specific skills,like not everyone will obtain the black hand or want to put time into it,but everyone can obtain decent iron palm skills in a year. most of the gungs mention only take about a year to develop to a pretty good degree. as they were battle feild arts,no one would train a gung that took 5-10 years to develop as the next battle could be around the corner, so the skills had to manifest results quickly. some of the more esoteric skills developed by scholars or doctors off the original combat skills are the ones that take extended periods to develop.

Thanks Rod for reminding about the average student. Yes you are right that you can make some decent progress in a year or so. What i was talking about was getting to that Black Hand level or being able to kill a horse with a slap etc etc. I usually demonstrate IP by hitting someone on their chest, nothing to hard and what people will say is "What is that stuff bouncing around inside my body?", "How come I felt it go down to the ground and come up?" During sparring my teacher asked me to wear boxing gloves so I would not hurt my fellow students.

ginosifu

[bawang]

u guys mang remember chinese boxing is bare knuckle. u need good condition or u break ur hands mang. its not "speshul" traning its beginner vital important traning

oh and yeah,bawang, you are correct, learn to use a rifle and a hand gun proficiently. being from the south it is our life style,i got my first rifle at 9, my son at 6 and my daughter at 7. it is very important to learn these valueabble tools as they may one day preserve your life, and the life you and your family enjoy.

wo wo wo man slow down. firearm is a sacred weapon where your kill with a thought. it too extreme to teach to ur kids mang. they get a temper tantrum then BANG BANG dead mom and dad.

[Lucas]

standard conditioning should always be done from beginner till you are too old to do it. but there are focused conditions also. i think everyone should be able to hit rock or tree hard enough to ko someone and not hurt your hand. just incase you miss and hit a skull. thats standard.

being able to break a brick with your stright jab finger tips is not a standard though. should it be?

[GeneChing]

Don't fall into that paranoid mindtrap that martial arts is just about fighting. I know you better, cousin. Iron Palm is a difficult discipline, but there will always be people to pursue it like you and a few others here. Is it needed? For what exactly?

I remember working the front desk when this new Hung Gar student walked into Lam Kwoon. The guy was buff, with guns as big as my waist, and he asks me "How long until I'll be able to defend myself?" I said "As soon as you can buy a gun" and went on with my business. He did sign up and years later, he reminded me of our initial conversation. He wound up loving Hung Gar as a discipline, and even started dabbling in Iron Palm. "I'm still here," he said with a grin, "and I still haven't bought that gun."

[ginosifu]

yeah I know Gene, I just want everyone to think like me. I get frustrated every once in a while when students fizzle. Sometimes I think that no one really cares about the old school gungs / skills anymore.

ginosifu

[Dragonzbane76]

yeah I know Gene, I just want everyone to think like me. I get frustrated every once in a while when students fizzle. Sometimes I think that no one really cares about the old school gungs / skills anymore.

ginosifu

my thoughts, there are gems to find in everything. you have to sift through the dirt and explore every nook and cranny to find them. I truely believe that people on here hold some kind of attachment towards TCMA or they wouldn't post at all, even the hardcore mma guys. I also believe that many have become disenchanted with it as well. Good or bad I don't think it's dying, I think it's evolving. To what none of us know, to what end, none of us know.

[Drake]

the rifle is part of the traditional 18 weapons.

i can train u at rifle. No charge.

[Drake]

I don't fight with my fists. I clip you off at half a click away and call it a fair fight.

[YouKnowWho]

I get frustrated every once in a while when students fizzle. Sometimes I think that no one really cares about the old school gungs / skills anymore.
Try to look at this way. If everybody train iron palm then what will be your advantage for your iron palm training? This is my favorite joke:

- My teacher's teacher could stand in his horse stance and finished his dinner.
- My teacher could stand in his horse stance and finished watching Bejing opera.
- I can stand in my horse stance and finish my beer.

[Violent Designs]

5 years are going to pass by anyway...

You might as well gain the skill.

this .

[YouKnowWho]

One day I was proud to tell my teacher that I had spent 3 years to train a single technique. My teacher said, "I had spent 10 years on that move". I kept my mouth shut after that.

[Shima Wara]

This is really a hard question to answer. And i think the reason for the difficulty is the relative nature of how the skills are developed, by whom and for what use.

I would consider the fact that I can get my hand slammed in a car door and not have it break into pieces a useful function of iron hand. I would also consider my ability to repeatedly strike something and break it a good skill to have for survival's sake, as you never know when you might be without tools and need firewood from a thick tree limb.

I also lift weights on a regular basis. This has helped me attain stronger flexion and extension of the muscles. I can run faster, and jump higher because i do deep and heavy squats for example.

Iron body might help you withstand organ damage from a great blow, such as car wreck or make you more resistant to minor lacerations and burns in emergency situations.

All the traditional skills have their place, but they must be trained regularly. However, I disagree that it takes 10 years of training to begin showing great progress in something like iron hand, or weight training if you have an effective method and level of discipline.

When I began training iron hand, i read everywhere that to break a coconut on my palm for example(as opposed to on the ground) would take 4-6 years or even 10 in some cases. I completed this task right at my two year mark, and I did so with diligence and disciplined training.

I feel as though all these items have something to offer, but they need to be viewed as pieces to a larger puzzle IMHO.

Oh and buy several guns because they are a necessary and effective survival tool. Always good to know how to shoot:)

[Knifefighter]

I would consider the fact that I can get my hand slammed in a car door and not have it break into pieces a useful function of iron hand.

This is one of the reasons we make fun of the TMA crowd.

[Knifefighter]

In any Judo match that 99% of the time one of your opponent's hands willl grab on your upper lapel. That hand is given to you for free but most beginner just don't know how to take advantage on it. If you go to the woods and use your left hand to grab a tree branch. You then use your right shoulder to drop and break that tree branch. After you have broken 1,000 tree branches with your shoulder dropping, next time your Judo friend gets you a left upper lapel hold, you use left hand to hold on his grabbing arm, you then drop your right shoulder on to his upper arm, you can take your opponent down effortless..

This would be another reason.

[Knifefighter]

Just finished a IP session: feel better now!


Thanks Rod for reminding about the average student. Yes you are right that you can make some decent progress in a year or so. What i was talking about was getting to that Black Hand level or being able to kill a horse with a slap etc etc. I usually demonstrate IP by hitting someone on their chest, nothing to hard and what people will say is "What is that stuff bouncing around inside my body?", "How come I felt it go down to the ground and come up?" During sparring my teacher asked me to wear boxing gloves so I would not hurt my fellow students.

ginosifu

And this would be another one.

[TenTigers]

my Sifu said my chi is too strong to do Kung-Fu anymore with mere mortals.
Only video games can handle my high level technique.
Well, Knifefighter??What have you to say about that?
Ha! Nothing, I bet....

[Drake]

TCMA, executed violently and without thinking about the hocus pocus hubbub, can be very effective. Low roundhouses, strikes using your momentum, and redirecting that rhinceros of a man as he lunges at you works wonders.

You won't touch a guy and kill him, though. Nor will you get by doing everything slowly or by engaging in useless fluff.

And you better have a ground plan. Americans like to rassle.

[ginosifu]

Knifefighter,
what is it that scares you about CMA? Why is it that you feel the need condem something you fear? This is what I tell all fools like you:

Come challenge me, I dare you! I am talking a real fist fight, no ring just fight. If you win I bow down and say my kung fu sucks in front of everyone. If I win you bow down and become my student.

Deal?

ginosifu

[Dragonzbane76]

Come challenge me, I dare you! I am talking a real fist fight, no ring just fight. If you win I bow down and say my kung fu sucks in front of everyone. If I win you bow down and become my student.

and here's the thing I don't understand about people on here. Posturing, chest puffing, etc.

why is it when someone that has a different opinion than someone else and expresses it, gets people chest bumping and ready to throw down. Can people not have different opinions? WTF people I'm sick of people getting pi$$y because someone else has a different point of view. Who the fvck cares if someone calls your sifu/teacher/master a piece of crap. who the fvck cares if they say you suck, some of you people have serious issues concerning temperment and the funny thing is most are the bow down buddha types one minute and then the raging lunatic the next.

(not pointing to you specifically gino, this is a lot of people on here)

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,
what is it that scares you about CMA? Why is it that you feel the need condem something you fear? This is what I tell all fools like you:

Come challenge me, I dare you! I am talking a real fist fight, no ring just fight. If you win I bow down and say my kung fu sucks in front of everyone. If I win you bow down and become my student.

Deal?

ginosifu

Gino- what is it about you that makes you want to trick people? Or do you really seriously believe you are knocking people's organs around inside them?

Come on dude... this is the 2000's, not the 1500's.

Tell you what, instead of me flying half way across the country to "fist fight" you, why don't you simply go find an old brick building and make a clip of you punching holes in it with your "iron hand"? That would be a lot simpler, wouldn't it. And then we wouldn't have to deal with the legal repercussions of you "blasting my organs out" with your iron palm (or me causing brain damage to you because when I choked you out I held the choke too long or ripped your knee out with a heel hook).

So how about it? How about finding an actual brick structure and "iron-handing" that? That would be pretty impressive and simple, right?

But really, I'd like to know, do you really believe that you are knocking people's organs around inside them?

[MysteriousPower]

Gino- what is it about you that makes you want to trick people? Or do you really seriously believe you are knocking people's organs around inside them?

Come on dude... this is the 2000's, not the 1500's.

Tell you what, instead of me flying half way across the country to "fist fight" you, why don't you simply go find an old brick building and make a clip of you punching holes in it with your "iron hand"? That would be a lot simpler, wouldn't it. And then we wouldn't have to deal with the legal repercussions of you "blasting my organs out" with your iron palm (or me causing brain damage to you because when I choked you out I held the choke too long or ripped your knee out with a heel hook).

So how about it? How about finding an actual brick structure and "iron-handing" that? That would be pretty impressive and simple, right?

But really, I'd like to know, do you really believe that you are knocking people's organs around inside them?

He cannot do that. People can only break the low quality bricks that were too weak to be used on buildings. Sad but true.

[MysteriousPower]

How about you enter a sumo wrestling match and see if your feats of strength prepared you to resist being thrown off the stage? If you win then that is a real feat of strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In any Judo match that 99% of the time one of your opponent's hands willl grab on your upper lapel. That hand is given to you for free but most beginner just don't know how to take advantage on it. If you go to the woods and use your left hand to grab a tree branch. You then use your right shoulder to drop and break that tree branch. After you have broken 1,000 tree branches with your shoulder dropping, next time your Judo friend gets you a left upper lapel hold, you use left hand to hold on his grabbing arm, you then drop your right shoulder on to his upper arm, you can take your opponent down effortless. That's the "pay off" for your special training.

If you want to be better than average, you will need some special skill.

Youknow that I agree with 99% of all you say John, but I do have SOME experience in judo and I can assure you that someone trying that in a judo match wouldn't get the result they were looking for.

[Knifefighter]

He cannot do that. People can only break the low quality bricks that were too weak to be used on buildings. Sad but true.

No kidding! You'd think these guys would understand that the rest of the world is catching on to their tricks when not one of them has ever demonstrated the ability to actually do some kind of functional iron hand punching.

There are plenty of concrete and brick structures around. You'd think they would figure out that the rest of the world has figured the connection between the fact that they only breaking things in an isolated demo situation and never actually break real things.

And speaking of functional and worthwhile, I just had a better idea for gino.

Gino- I tell you what. Let's make this even simpler and more impressive. Why don't I simply have someone come over to your school and the two of you can go out into the parking lot where you can put your "iron hand" into his door and he will slam it on your hand several times. We can record it and put it up for the world to see.

Now that would be impressive, simple and great publicity for exactly what you are trying to accomplish in getting people interested in doing this kind of training. I definitely would bow down to your iron hand ability and I guarantee you would have dedicated students flocking to learn this.

Forget the empty challenges. This would be actually stepping up. What do you think gino? Your selling this cr@p. How about having confidence in it and doing a real, functional application like this?

We can make it even more impressive by having you break through a brick building after your hand has been shut in the door several times. I guarantee that would shut all us nonbelievers up.

Let's get the ball rolling on this.

[Drake]

How about I just fight both of you at the same time? Bring your A game.


I will kill all of you.

[MysteriousPower]

Just finished a IP session: feel better now!


Thanks Rod for reminding about the average student. Yes you are right that you can make some decent progress in a year or so. What i was talking about was getting to that Black Hand level or being able to kill a horse with a slap etc etc. I usually demonstrate IP by hitting someone on their chest, nothing to hard and what people will say is "What is that stuff bouncing around inside my body?", "How come I felt it go down to the ground and come up?" During sparring my teacher asked me to wear boxing gloves so I would not hurt my fellow students.

ginosifu

I killed a horse once but it was not from secret Chinese training. I brought two horses together to mate. The male inserted into the female. I secretly guided the male out and I went in for the kill. While I was continuing I had someone else walk the original male horse to the side of the female so she could see that he was not doing her. She freaked out and had a heart attack. I call this deadly technique, "The David Blaine HOrse Killing Technique."

Why train IP for years to kill a horse when you can use your smarts and existing skillz to do the job.

[ginosifu]

Knifefighter
if you truly have beef with cma, this is ok, but to condem them and make accusations about behind the comfort of your comupter is not. I do not like peeps who sit behind a comp screen and talk crap. I am man of my word and I will back up any claim I make. I do not claim to have the same power as ku ye cheong and able to splatter organs. However I can and have made people feel something move around inside their bodies.
I do not condem anyone of any style whether I feel there good or not. Forums like these were made so everyone can exchange info, even express their likes and dislaike. But to make fun CMA like you do ****es me off to end. It is apparent that you have your opinon and that is ok.
I do not need to make videos to prove my skills. I teach what I teach, I have what I have. Neither you or any other cma hater will change that.

ginosifu

[MysteriousPower]

How about I just fight both of you at the same time? Bring your A game.


I will kill all of you.


With your gun or with your bad breath?

[MysteriousPower]

Knifefighter
if you truly have beef with cma, this is ok, but to condem them and make accusations about behind the comfort of your comupter is not. I do not like peeps who sit behind a comp screen and talk crap. I am man of my word and I will back up any claim I make. I do not claim to have the same power as ku ye cheong and able to splatter organs. However I can and have made people feel something move around inside their bodies.
I do not condem anyone of any style whether I feel there good or not. Forums like these were made so everyone can exchange info, even express their likes and dislaike. But to make fun CMA like you do ****es me off to end. It is apparent that you have your opinon and that is ok.
I do not need to make videos to prove my skills. I teach what I teach, I have what I have. Neither you or any other cma hater will change that.

ginosifu

Even if these IP skills helped a person's striking...he still has to be able to strike a resisting opponent. Since these gungs require power from the legs to do them...the way to negate ALL of them is to take a person down to the ground. So you if you cannot strike someone with IP...and get taken down...you spent 10 years working on nothing. If you strike him and kill him before he gets you to the ground then good for you. Unfortunately we have all seen video evidence of the former and none of the latter.

[David Jamieson]

Well, we kung fu guys like to make fun of you mma guys who think that only your way is best.

It's not. In fact, quite often it is poorly taught and enthusiastically executed in a stupid fashion.

for every GSP or brilliant fighter out there, there are 1000 idiots concussing themselves, hurting their joints and spending a lot of time with injuries because the majority of people are just more enthusiastic than they are smart.

Kung Fu is a slower path. It's not likely you'll get hurt all to quick and that's a good thing with new beginners.

I'm willing to bet that out of all the BJJ clubs, mma clubs etc out there, the greater majority of the attendees are their for a workout and that's it.

the greater majority of mma enthusiast in fact do not fight or spar at all.

they go at the wave masters and mitts while they are encouraged to do so.

I honestly don't see how this is any different from a decent kung fu school, except that the training path is structured differently.


Knifefighter - You keep saying "we make fun of it because".
What is it you are hoping to achieve by being an antagonistic *****. You don't offer anything but one liners and cryptic nonsense about what you don't like without ever really being clear about what it is you don't like. YOu actually go so far as to make stuff up and throw out percentages as if you actually have some set of statistics informing your opinion of the vast world of traditional martial arts. Does it bother you that the great majority of martial arts schools are not mma but are traditional? Does it bother you that there are many more thousands of students who enjoy learning traditional martial arts as opposed to mma? Does it bother you that TCMA clubs are absorbing mma into their curricula and will further take even more students from your purist mma schools? Because that's happening too.

Seriously, people are people and they get ticked off when they are belittled such as you do here. What do you expect them to do and how do you expect them to react?

You are creating a negative cause. You don't expect any respect to be given to you do you?

As for the degradation of the quality of the forum due to all the goofiness that gets injected into threads by various individuals, the overall quality of content has dropped dramatically here. But still, You are helping a Kung Fu based company to make money because despite all the nonsense you and your ilk spew, you create activity on the forum which drives numbers and that drives business.

Business, that YOU are not getting but rather bringing to a Kung Fu based company. So, I guess there is that little bit of light about what you have to say.

Do you guys actually think you score some little victory when you tick someone off who teaches kung fu and is called sifu by their students?

get a life. lol

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter
if you truly have beef with cma, this is ok, but to condem them and make accusations about behind the comfort of your comupter is not. I do not like peeps who sit behind a comp screen and talk crap. I am man of my word and I will back up any claim I make. I do not claim to have the same power as ku ye cheong and able to splatter organs. However I can and have made people feel something move around inside their bodies.
I do not condem anyone of any style whether I feel there good or not. Forums like these were made so everyone can exchange info, even express their likes and dislaike. But to make fun CMA like you do ****es me off to end. It is apparent that you have your opinon and that is ok.
I do not need to make videos to prove my skills. I teach what I teach, I have what I have. Neither you or any other cma hater will change that.

ginosifu

Gino- you are the one claiming "iron hand" skills.

You are the one making challenges from across the country from behind you computer.

You are the one complaining because people don't want to learn your iron hand training. Maybe it's because they are starting figure out its a scam.

You don't like it that I make fun of the fact that you are tricking people. Back it up. Show it in a functional setting. Put your hand in the car door and then go break the building. Let's see it.

Of course I'm going to make fun of charlotons who always say "I have nothing to prove on video", yet feel the need to "prove" with typing.

Come on dude, you made the claim. Now let's see it. Either that or quit trying to trick people.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
I definitely would bow down to your iron hand ability and I guarantee you would have dedicated students flocking to learn this.


how can you guarantee that? flocking to learn this? how can you do that?

[Drake]

Mind control. DUH.

[hskwarrior]

Knifefighters own version of HAARP huh? LMAO

[Knifefighter]

how can you guarantee that? flocking to learn this? how can you do that?

Watching someone get his hand slammed in a car door several times and then actaully breaking a real structure would be huge publicity.

No one has ever done that before (maybe because what they are selling is fake?). Someone who did that would get huge publicity from that.

[Drake]

Watching someone get his hand slammed in a car door several times and then actaully breaking a real structure would be huge publicity.

No one has ever done that before (maybe because what they are selling is fake?). Someone who did that would get huge publicity from that.

I disagree. Once I fired chi beams from my mouth and blew up a truck. Still no students.

[ginosifu]

Even if these IP skills helped a person's striking...he still has to be able to strike a resisting opponent. Since these gungs require power from the legs to do them...the way to negate ALL of them is to take a person down to the ground. So you if you cannot strike someone with IP...and get taken down...you spent 10 years working on nothing. If you strike him and kill him before he gets you to the ground then good for you. Unfortunately we have all seen video evidence of the former and none of the latter.

Excellent point !

I also spent more than 15 years of Shuai Jiao and I am very good on my feet. But you are sorta kinda correct. Most 99% of all fight will end up on the ground. We have a type practice where we spar with gear however, it goes to the ground until tap out. I practice this with all my students like this to give a feel of what reality may be like.

ginosifu

[hskwarrior]

Watching someone get his hand slammed in a car door several times and then actaully breaking a real structure would be huge publicity.

how many people do YOU know that wants to have their hands slammed in a car door? i can see how "impressive it would be" but i love my hands....LOL...

i do agree with you on one thing....there is FAR too much hocus pocus in TCMA. and i'm glad that under my teacher we never learned any of it.

[Knifefighter]

Excellent point !

I also spent more than 15 years of Shuai Jiao and I am very good on my feet. But you are sorta kinda correct. Most 99% of all fight will end up on the ground. We have a type practice where we spar with gear however, it goes to the ground until tap out. I practice this with all my students like this to give a feel of what reality may be like.

ginosifu

That's great and I will never make fun of that kind of training.

But that's not iron hand. What about the real application of that? I mean, you've got people believing they can punch through things and be impervious to getting their hands crushed.

Where's your demonstration of functional iron hand that you are pedaling?

[Knifefighter]

how many people do YOU know that wants to have their hands slammed in a car door? i can see how "impressive it would be" but i love my hands....LOL....

This is what gino is selling. He should at least have the integrity to have enough faith to show it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah I know Gene, I just want everyone to think like me. I get frustrated every once in a while when students fizzle. Sometimes I think that no one really cares about the old school gungs / skills anymore.

ginosifu

It all depends on how you approach them.
Not to blow my horn, but I never needed IP or IB training, not specialised anyways.
Yet I did them and still do them, why?
Because they were part of "kung fu", not because they would make me "uber kung fu guy", but because they were part of the culture and part of the training and I found them very interesting AND I wanted to see for myself what it was all about.

[Knifefighter]

It all depends on how you approach them.
Not to blow my horn, but I never needed IP or IB training, not specialised anyways.
Yet I did them and still do them, why?
Because they were part of "kung fu", not because they would make me "uber kung fu guy", but because they were part of the culture and part of the training and I found them very interesting AND I wanted to see for myself what it was all about.

Approaching it by doing functional applications proving that it works is the way to approach in a manner that shows integrity of what is being taught.

People pedaling this need to prove that it is not snake oil.

[hskwarrior]

This is what gino is selling. He should at least have the integrity to have enough faith to show it.

KF, ok, but do you see the value in being able to hit brick walls barehanded as opposed to just bag work? i don't claim to have iron hands but i do like to strike cement with no gloves. I've always felt that it provides an effective punch.

[ginosifu]

Gino- you are the one claiming "iron hand" skills.

You are the one making challenges from across the country from behind you computer.

You are the one complaining because people don't want to learn your iron hand training. Maybe it's because they are starting figure out its a scam.

You don't like it that I make fun of the fact that you are tricking people. Back it up. Show it in a functional setting. Put your hand in the car door and then go break the building. Let's see it.

Of course I'm going to make fun of charlotons who always say "I have nothing to prove on video", yet feel the need to "prove" with typing.

Come on dude, you made the claim. Now let's see it. Either that or quit trying to trick people.

Like I said you talk crap from behind your comp screen. The only way you are going to understand or believe is to have your a$$ kicked in person. Since I know your a wimp and you think you know everything there is no use in trying to prove it on the comp, so where do you live? I travel sometimes maybe we can hook up so you can kick my behind with your skills. I am willing to back myself up are you?

[SPJ]

We all have read about or seen videos of or even practiced ourselves, those skills of legend. Iron Hand, Fingers that can break through a watermelon, walking along the edge of a bamboo basket, Iron Body, Dim Mak, fingers that can break a walnut etc etc etc.

In todays modern society the average person does not have the time to invest in these type of specialty skills. As teachers do you feel the need to teach these skills to the average person? In my personal experience, to truly master these skills a person needs to spend 2-3 daily practice sessions (morning, noon and night), 7 days a week, 365 days a year for a minimum of 5-10 years for each skill.

I have been training for over 20 years and all of my teachers have expressed the fact they have spent this amount of time perfecting their skills.

If you are a sifu, then I think you should spend time to perfect whatever skills you have. However, I feel that the average student can not or will not spend the time needed to perfect these specialty skills.

Your thoughts

ginosifu

basics, basics and basics

we have to practice the basics everyday. so that our kung fu work.

without the basics, we have nothing.

special skills, all styles have them to hone in. that is optional or personal persuit.


:)

[Knifefighter]

KF, ok, but do you see the value in being able to hit brick walls barehanded as opposed to just bag work? i don't claim to have iron hands but i do like to strike cement with no gloves. I've always felt that it provides an effective punch.

I'm not saying toughening your hands one way vs. another is good vs. bad.

What I am saying is that people claiming to have special powers (knocking out horses, moving people's organs around, punching through things, getting your hand smashed with no repercussions, etc), need to actually step up and prove those things.

As a matter of fact, that just gave me an even better idea for gino.

Gino- here's an even better on. Instead of telling me to come see you and then beating me up, why don't you come see me. I've got a whole boatload of things you could demonstrate to me so that I would bow down to you in the end and say your kung fu is superior.

I've got access to brick and concrete buildings and walls you could break through, livestock you could knock out with your punches, plenty of car doors to slam on your hands, and lots of other neat stuff. At the end, you could even kick my @ss and all the other guys who train with me to show me that you are "real". What better way to prove the naysayers wrong than going through a bunch of BJJ/MMA fighters with your abilities.

I have a professional camera guy who could follow us around and show all your amazing feats . It would be great publicity for what you are trying to accomplish.

Let's do this!

[Knifefighter]

Like I said you talk crap from behind your comp screen. The only way you are going to understand or believe is to have your a$$ kicked in person. Since I know your a wimp and you think you know everything there is no use in trying to prove it on the comp, so where do you live? I travel sometimes maybe we can hook up so you can kick my behind with your skills. I am willing to back myself up are you?


Perfect. PM me and we'll start setting the whole thing up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Approaching it by doing functional applications proving that it works is the way to approach in a manner that shows integrity of what is being taught.

IP is about Wolf's Law, you know that.
IB training is about learning to absorbe and deflect strikes, you know that too.
Sure some of the marketing out there is less than honest, but no one here is doing that.
Having done IP for years now I can break slabs and bricks far easier than before AND I am less concerned about hitting bare handed and as such, I hit harder.
How do I know this?
2 reasons:
I have some sparring partners/ pad holders that have been with me for many years, they didn't know I did IP and they commented on the increase in impact.
Second reason, during the summer I had my strike tested.
As some of you may know I was involved in two studies over at York University, a few years ago, they were done to see if the modern sport portective gear is good enough and as such, I was one of the participants and our strikes were measured and the impact force was recorded.
Strikes were measured on a static pad, on a punching bag, on a pad held by a person and in the final study, during a sparring session ( the sparring partner was equipped with force sensors on his gear).
I tested my strike last summer VS those past numbers and their was an increase of 12-15%.
They only difference in my training was the degree of IP I had been doing, although at the time of the first and second test I had already started IP.

Now, at least to me, this shows me that IP training does work.
Does it make a hand of iron or an unbreakable hand or a "uber strike"?
NO.
Does it help your strikes?
Yes.

[Knifefighter]

Does it help your strikes?
Yes.

So does any kind of hand toughening. That's not where the trickery comes in. The trickery comes in in the demos and false statements.

[Dragonzbane76]

there have been carpetbaggers for as long as people could peddle wears. The hocas pocas clans have roamed for a long time. Promoting stories in youth, demonstrating on passive individuals, etc.

THIS IS WHAT GIVES TCMA A BAD NAME

[MysteriousPower]

I'm not saying toughening your hands one way vs. another is good vs. bad.

What I am saying is that people claiming to have special powers (knocking out horses, moving people's organs around, punching through things, getting your hand smashed with no repercussions, etc), need to actually step up and prove those things.

As a matter of fact, that just gave me an even better idea for gino.

Gino- here's an even better on. Instead of telling me to come see you and then beating me up, why don't you come see me. I've got a whole boatload of things you could demonstrate to me so that I would bow down to you in the end and say your kung fu is superior.

I've got access to brick and concrete buildings and walls you could break through, livestock you could knock out with your punches, plenty of car doors to slam on your hands, and lots of other neat stuff. At the end, you could even kick my @ss and all the other guys who train with me to show me that you are "real". What better way to prove the naysayers wrong than going through a bunch of BJJ/MMA fighters with your abilities.

I have a professional camera guy who could follow us around and show all your amazing feats . It would be great publicity for what you are trying to accomplish.

Let's do this!

Can I come too??

[sanjuro_ronin]

So does any kind of hand toughening. That's not where the trickery comes in. The trickery comes in in the demos and false statements.

I have seen my share of BS, yes and YES, you are right, that is THE problem.

[MysteriousPower]

Like I said you talk crap from behind your comp screen. The only way you are going to understand or believe is to have your a$$ kicked in person. Since I know your a wimp and you think you know everything there is no use in trying to prove it on the comp, so where do you live? I travel sometimes maybe we can hook up so you can kick my behind with your skills. I am willing to back myself up are you?

It is true KF is talking major crap. But kicking his a$$ will not prove that your iron palm is true or not. It was stated in another thread that he lost a bjj match to Tim Cartmell(by points) and Tim Cartmell has never trained in iron palm. Proving IP would be about doing IP. Perhaps KF's examples are a bit extreme you have to go beyond breaking weak bricks and wood.

[Knifefighter]

It is true KF is talking major crap. But kicking his a$$ will not prove that your iron palm is true or not. It was stated in another thread that he lost a bjj match to Tim Cartmell(by points) and Tim Cartmell has never trained in iron palm. Proving IP would be about doing IP. Perhaps KF's examples are a bit extreme you have to go beyond breaking weak bricks and wood.

Actually, it wasn't by points it was by an advantage (which, if you know BJJ rules is an "almost" point used to decide a match that is tied at the end).

And, it did prove something. It proved that, once again, many of the clueless CMA people who post here have no idea what they are talking about.

If you would have believed their spin on things, he should have been launching me through the air, since the first 3/4 of our match was standing.

[MysteriousPower]

Actually, it wasn't by points it was by an advantage (which, if you know BJJ rules is an "almost" point used to decide a match that is tied at the end).

And, it did prove something. It proved that, once again, many of the clueless CMA people who post here have no idea what they are talking about.

If you would have believed their spin on things, he should have been launching me through the air, since the first 3/4 of our match was standing.

I was not saying he kicked your a$$ or anything. I barely read what masterkiller posted about it. I just meant that it does not take IP to beat someone skilled. That is all i meant.

[hskwarrior]

I was not saying he kicked your a$$ or anything. I barely read what masterkiller posted about it. I just meant that it does not take IP to beat someone skilled. That is all i meant.

you don't realize that ALL ATHLETES have Internal Power. MMA, BJJ, TCMA, RUNNERS, WEIGHT LIFTERS......they all have it. some just don't describe it with fancy or mysteriousl verbage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you don't realize that ALL ATHLETES have Internal Power. MMA, BJJ, TCMA, RUNNERS, WEIGHT LIFTERS......they all have it. some just don't describe it with fancy or mysteriousl verbage.

Dude, you are gonna out all those people's marketing programs out of business, stop it !

[Knifefighter]

you don't realize that ALL ATHLETES have Internal Power. MMA, BJJ, TCMA, RUNNERS, WEIGHT LIFTERS......they all have it. some just don't describe it with fancy or mysteriousl verbage.

BJJ, running, weight triaining, MMA... none of them are trying to convince people they can put their hands in slamming car doors or move people's organs around.

[goju]

you don't realize that ALL ATHLETES have Internal Power. MMA, BJJ, TCMA, RUNNERS, WEIGHT LIFTERS......they all have it. some just don't describe it with fancy or mysteriousl verbage.

its funny too as i recall that chinese ma saying that you train the internal by training the external yet most people would try to argue with this:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

internal external argument... blah... it's freakin ridiculous
there is not such thing, they are both the same, it's all one thing.

[Drake]

All I want is to literally be able to punch somebody's head off.

[teetsao]

i have never heard ,personlly, of anyone ever stste they could punch through a brick wall, who was a legitamte iron palm practitioner. we are still human and we have limits, but our limits have been raised. i could never in my life, nomatter how much i practiced punching or strength training, break a 4 inch solid block, nor my bro. break a 4 plus a 2 inch solid no spacers without iron palm training. it is meant to be a ble to deliver a harder strike with no repercussions to the striker. ever hear of anyone hitting some one in the head and breaking their hand?? it happens all the time,this is whhy boxer wrap thier hands. you dont have that luxury in the street. there is no doubt that iron palm training works and works well and fast with proper training,not the mysterious b.s. it is a skill,and as a skill it has to practiced. same as iron shirt/body, yes it is very similar to medecine ball training but taken to another level. does it make oyu impervious, not exactl but you will be able to get hit withut the hurt if one happens to get through on you. if you have obtained real iron shirt you will be able to feel the fascia under oyur skin, it will feel like strings of "pearls" or rocks under your skin. certain skills matter more than others,relfex skill and power generating skills in my opinion come first.

[David Jamieson]

BJJ, running, weight triaining, MMA... none of them are trying to convince people they can put their hands in slamming car doors or move people's organs around.

you are comparing broad and varied practices with the claims of one person.

you are saying in essence that this one person encompasses all of kung fu.

this is how you construct your strawmen.

almost every time.

Are you actually saying that people who do BJJ, run, lift do mma don't talk shyte?

hahahahahahahaha. That's called "omniwrong" :p

[Knifefighter]

you are comparing broad and varied practices with the claims of one person.

you are saying in essence that this one person encompasses all of kung fu.

this is how you construct your strawmen.

almost every time.

[QUOTE]Are you actually saying that people who do BJJ, run, lift do mma don't talk shyte?

hahahahahahahaha. That's called "omniwrong" :p

Of course they do and they get called on it all the time... fake bjj black belts; Rickson's 400-0 record; Helio being undefeated even though he got his arm broken by Kimura; cheating marathon runners, etc, etc.

[David Jamieson]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1056931]you are comparing broad and varied practices with the claims of one person.

you are saying in essence that this one person encompasses all of kung fu.

this is how you construct your strawmen.

almost every time.



Of course they do and they get called on it all the time... fake bjj black belts; Rickson's 400-0 record; Helio being undefeated even though he got his arm broken by Kimura; cheating marathon runners, etc, etc.

Now you have just contradicted what you originally said.
which is it?

[Knifefighter]

Now you have just contradicted what you originally said.
which is it?

What are you referring to? What am I contradicting?

[David Jamieson]

What are you referring to? What am I contradicting?

I am referring to your statement that more or less says that bjj, running lifting etc doesn't have it's own people that present their own fallacies.

I guess you could drill out of that by saying you were specific about the hand vs car door, but that still doesn't make sense in context because you were talking about one guy (who apparently is mentally stunted) and making him the representative of kung fu whilst your likes were dropped in with a much broader stroke of "bjj, running etc don't make claims of..."

Kung Fu has it's flakes and it has it's bad asses and it has it's great, insightful and thoughtful teachers and practitioners. It's not just a lump of stuff that is all the same.

Just like bjj has it's flakes, bad asses and bush1tters as well, as does any organized physical endeavour.

at least with kung fu, by the time a person gets some, they realize that they are alone with it. :p

[Knifefighter]

I am referring to your statement that more or less says that bjj, running lifting etc doesn't have it's own people that present their own fallacies.

I guess you could drill out of that by saying you were specific about the hand vs car door, but that still doesn't make sense in context because you were talking about one guy (who apparently is mentally stunted) and making him the representative of kung fu whilst your likes were dropped in with a much broader stroke of "bjj, running etc don't make claims of..."

Kung Fu has it's flakes and it has it's bad asses and it has it's great, insightful and thoughtful teachers and practitioners. It's not just a lump of stuff that is all the same.

Just like bjj has it's flakes, bad asses and bush1tters as well, as does any organized physical endeavour.

at least with kung fu, by the time a person gets some, they realize that they are alone with it. :p

Sports have their share of b.s. That much is true. Not nearly as much as the TMA b.s. though.

Sports have less because the very nature of sport requires evidence, duplication, and actual application.

Both benefit from having the b.s. pointed out. I've already pointed out some of the the bjj b.s. Kind of ironic that you gave me a hard time for doing that also.

[hskwarrior]

Sports have less because the very nature of sport requires evidence, duplication, and actual application.

that right there is what's gonna give TCMA a swift kick in the butt to get moving.

[YouKnowWho]

The TCMA Kung training is more than just "iron palm" and "iron vest". Every combat skill has a Kung training to help to "enhance" your skill. If you bear hug and lift your heavy bag off the ground 100 times daily, your chance to bear hug and lift your opponent off the ground in combat will be higher. If you train your roundhouse kick on heavy bag long enough, your shin bone will be able to take more pain when your shin bone meet your opponent's shin bone. That's just common sense. There is no mistry about it. If you can't get your arms around your opponent's waist, your strong "bear hug" will mean nothing. If you can't deliever your strong round house kick to your opponent's head, your strong roundhouse kick will mean nothing. The TCMA Kung training can only "enhance" your combat skill after you have "develop" it through 2 men drills and sparring. The Kung by itself is not combat skill.

[Northwind]

that right there is what's gonna give TCMA a swift kick in the butt to get moving.

I seriously doubt that. We have GOT to stop saying TCMA is/isn't this or that. I mean come on - TCMA = Traditional Chinese Martial Arts = many styles = many sub-styles = many teachers = many students = many countries = many schools and so on. We can NOT lump it all under one roof.

Personally, I have seen many different TCMA with "evidence, duplication, and actual application" in regards to all of the things that most MMA folks here (TCMA nay-sayers) touch on - forms, kungs, fighting, etc. If it's not there, then yeah, that person, that teacher or that school maybe can be blamed, but "TCMA" as a whole?
Sorry, but no.

[hskwarrior]

ok....................

[Northwind]

lol sorry
Just found this thread and was reading it through and getting a bit "heated" up from the mma-ers. Not sure if what I said above makes much sense but oh well :P

[hskwarrior]

lol sorry
Just found this thread and was reading it through and getting a bit "heated" up from the mma-ers. Not sure if what I said above makes much sense but oh well :P

hey vent away dude. one thing i have learned from this forum is that haters are everywhere so i never take nothin personal. not calling you a hater but you are heated LOL.......we've all had enough bickering around here. it weighs really heavy. yeah you make sense, but you gotta admit there are come gung fu crack pots out there too.

[Northwind]

hey vent away dude. one thing i have learned from this forum is that haters are everywhere so i never take nothin personal. not calling you a hater but you are heated LOL.......we've all had enough bickering around here. it weighs really heavy. yeah you make sense, but you gotta admit there are come gung fu crack pots out there too.

Thanks.
Oh I know what you mean and definitely admit the crack-pots are out there. The problem is that the TCMA-naysayers are using the crackpots as poster children for the entirety. And that just ****es me off. Oddly enough I'm usually fairly quiet about this type of thing (at least online), but every now and then I get a bit heated. :P

[hskwarrior]

i feel you on that. enjoy the peace while it lasts. there are more of dem knuckle head muddachukka's out there.

[Syn7]

there will always be people who talk tough and get mouthy... but tcma has the biggest share of unsubstantiated claims... imo... you dont really hear mma cats talking about stuff they dont do everyday... granted they can be d!cks about it, like any sport, but you dont really hear them make the kind of claims and then never back them up like you find in tcma... all these old frauds that would get their face stomped in by any street fighter with ZERO training needs to remove the self defence claim from their cirriculum... doing it for other reasons, albiet debatable at times, i dont have any issue with... i believe there are truly effective styles, but very very very few and far between... nobody in mma who never fought anybody could ever get away with having people call him "master"... he'd get exposed right away... as soon as he participated with real fighters his true colors and lack of skills will shine... ofcourse some people are stupid enough to not test these types ands still learn from them, but they dont compete... ofcourse theres always exeptions to any rule...

[Northwind]

there will always be people who talk tough and get mouthy... but tcma has the biggest share of unsubstantiated claims... imo...
you dont really hear mma cats talking about stuff they dont do everyday... granted they can be d!cks about it, like any sport, but you dont really hear them make the kind of claims and then never back them up like you find in tcma... all these old frauds that would get their face stomped in by any street fighter with ZERO training needs to remove the self defence claim from their cirriculum... doing it for other reasons, albiet debatable at times, i dont have any issue with... i believe there are truly effective styles, but very very very few and far between... nobody in mma who never fought anybody could ever get away with having people call him "master"... he'd get exposed right away... as soon as he participated with real fighters his true colors and lack of skills will shine... ofcourse some people are stupid enough to not test these types ands still learn from them, but they dont compete... ofcourse theres always exeptions to any rule...

TCMA makes ZERO "claims". People do.

[Northwind]

t i believe there are truly effective styles, but very very very few and far between...

Extremely naive statement...I've said it before and I will say it again..."STYLES DO NOT FIGHT" or whatever else it is you want to pin on them....PEOPLE do.

[Syn7]

fair enough, its about individuals and their drive for success.... BUT how and what they train makes a difference... and i find very few tcma camps train effectively... you can call it naive all you want... but ive actually fought people, some kung fu, some not... and for the most part, ive always gotten better fights outta guys who fight alot but dont train at all...


and yeah, tcma makes no claims, you know what i meant... tcma practicioners... kind of a dumb thing to say, i dont think anyone didnt know exactly what i was saying...

i would like to see more tcma cats actually test their skills rather than sit back on their percieved laurels that they didnt earn... and dont get me wrong, its not just tcma, its most martial arts that are like this...

[Syn7]

bottom line, if you take all the MA bullsh!tters that i have personally met, a decent majority will be tcma stylists... so so many claims, so little showing of these claims...

[Northwind]

I agree that if you're going to talk the talk, you need to walk the walk. Put up or shut up. The same adage in many different terms. But who the hell cares about knowitalls who speak out of their hindquarters?

There will always be great brawlers out there - who cares? It has little to do with the original questions here.

"So many claims..So little proof"? No one here is making any claims, so this point is mute.

Let's say you & I get into an extremely heated argument here on the internetz. One of us challenges the other for a real go at it. We go at it. One of us loses (hopefully not lethally nor needing hospitalization). The other comes to back to the board and not only goes on and on about how bad the other one is, but mainly about how bad their style is, and then on to the meta-style (i.e., not just bjj sux but all grappling or vice versa). Would these be accurate statements? No. The facts would be that one of us won & one of us lost and that is ALL.

Regardless, let's try to stay on topic here. :P

[Syn7]

I agree that if you're going to talk the talk, you need to walk the walk. Put up or shut up. The same adage in many different terms. But who the hell cares about knowitalls who speak out of their hindquarters?

There will always be great brawlers out there - who cares? It has little to do with the original questions here.

"So many claims..So little proof"? No one here is making any claims, so this point is mute.

Let's say you & I get into an extremely heated argument here on the internetz. One of us challenges the other for a real go at it. We go at it. One of us loses (hopefully not lethally nor needing hospitalization). The other comes to back to the board and not only goes on and on about how bad the other one is, but mainly about how bad their style is, and then on to the meta-style (i.e., not just bjj sux but all grappling or vice versa). Would these be accurate statements? No. The facts would be that one of us won & one of us lost and that is ALL.

Regardless, let's try to stay on topic here. :P

im not talking about some pus$y messege board, im talking real life experiences... ive come across alot of rediculous claims... and tcma is in the forefront of that rediculousness... thats what ive seen around me throughout my life... period!

[Syn7]

the reason why the average joe thinks the whole chi thing is retarded is because most who claim things of this nature show themselves to be retarded... it gives the very small handful of legitimate practitioners a real bad name...

[Northwind]

im not talking about some pus$y messege board, im talking real life experiences... ive come across alot of rediculous claims... and tcma is in the forefront of that rediculousness... thats what ive seen around me throughout my life... period!

Since you put my entire post in quotes, yet did not address what I wrote - instead simply rewording your original "argument" - here I do the same.

I'm also speaking of real life experience of ridiculous claims. And TCMA makes zero claims. People do. General sweeping statements may work wonders for you, however I think racial, sexual, political and religious (as well as other) groups may tend to differ.

And again. Get back to the subject at hand....

[Northwind]

the reason why the average joe thinks the whole chi thing is retarded is because most who claim things of this nature show themselves to be retarded... it gives the very small handful of legitimate practitioners a real bad name...

1) "Chi" is not what we are talking about.
2) Most who say "Chi" have an extremely limited understanding of it, based on limited experience to the word.
3) You're right - bad apples will make the rest to be perceived likewise.
But does that one bad apple actually turn the good into bad? No.
And again - back to point.

[Yum Cha]

Nobody goes into MMA because they don't want to fight.

Lots of people go into (TC)MA because they don't want to fight, but they don't want to be afraid.

Yes, half are below average.

Also, there seems to be a certain surprise that 'fighters' talk sh1t? LOL

In this day and age, with intel and modern weapons, if you don't have blood on your hands, you're just a sportsman. (you think you take a beatin', try motocross...)

How you measure your skill, or demonstrate your abilities is really up to you, but its just games, anybody that really thinks its magic will end up sprouting the 'truth' of "real" fighting a couple of years down the track. A lot are just plain parlour tricks, and some are insignificant to anybody but the person that does it.

One I like is punching through an empty cardboard box without knocking it off the table, or punching through a sheet of newsprint, suspended from the top.

I know, you Iron Palm boys think I'm just a little girly boy...

I did a coconut from the shop that the girls wanted to munch on, and that was a piece of pi$$, I guess the fresh ones must be soft or something... :confused:

[Northwind]

YumCha,
Sorry - but I believe the discussion is aimed at real kungs - not snake oil, not chi blasts, nor any other silly label.

I can shine a helluva shoe.
Thanks to literally being a shoeshine boy for 8 years growing up. This is a kung (artistic license, if you will). There are abilities. And you add "MAGIC" of persistence over time and you get abilities beyond the average.
Plain and simple.

No claims. No magic.

[Syn7]

Since you put my entire post in quotes, yet did not address what I wrote - instead simply rewording your original "argument" - here I do the same.

I'm also speaking of real life experience of ridiculous claims. And TCMA makes zero claims. People do. General sweeping statements may work wonders for you, however I think racial, sexual, political and religious (as well as other) groups may tend to differ.

And again. Get back to the subject at hand....

you have an exellent grasp of the obvious... ofcourse its people making the claims... :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

1) "Chi" is not what we are talking about.
2) Most who say "Chi" have an extremely limited understanding of it, based on limited experience to the word.
3) You're right - bad apples will make the rest to be perceived likewise.
But does that one bad apple actually turn the good into bad? No.
And again - back to point.

1) no, i brought it up to illustrate a point...
2)it was a generalization simply to illustrate a point, not having anything to really do with chi, i couldve chosen many terms, i chose that one at random...
3)thanx, that was my point... and ofcourse it doesnt, i never said otherwise, infact it was my main purpose for saying anything at all...

although you shouldnt use apples as an example because in reality, one bad apple does spoil the bunch... but to argue that would be stupid semantics because i know what you mean... sort of like when i said "tcma claims", but clearly anyone with half a brain knew what i was talking about...

whether they agree or not is something entirely different...

[Northwind]

you have an exellent grasp of the obvious... ofcourse its people making the claims... :rolleyes:

Then...Would it be so huge of a jump to simply say TCMA practitioners instead of just TCMA? Or even better "my experience with TCMA practitioners"...Thusly not making sweeping general remarks.

For example, you can probably tell that I am a TCMA practitioner and one that does not fall into that category and one that does feel slightly offended by the generalization...

[Northwind]

1) no, i brought it up to illustrate a point...
2)it was a generalization simply to illustrate a point, not having anything to really do with chi, i couldve chosen many terms, i chose that one at random...
3)thanx, that was my point... and ofcourse it doesnt, i never said otherwise, infact it was my main purpose for saying anything at all...

although you shouldnt use apples as an example because in reality, one bad apple does spoil the bunch... but to argue that would be stupid semantics because i know what you mean... sort of like when i said "tcma claims", but clearly anyone with half a brain knew what i was talking about...

whether they agree or not is something entirely different...

1) Ok
2) Ok
3) Ok

Nicely done on the semantic joke :)
However, I must also admit that anyone with half a brain would know that general sweeping stereotypical statements have never proved to be a fruitful nor weighted endeavor.

[Syn7]

i know... but you have to make certain generalizations because of the choice of medium... its far too time consuming not to when you are typing on message boards... i have faith that those i care to converse with will catch on to what i mean... im always down to clarify if need be tho...

[Yum Cha]

YumCha,
Sorry - but I believe the discussion is aimed at real kungs - not snake oil, not chi blasts, nor any other silly label.

I can shine a helluva shoe.
Thanks to literally being a shoeshine boy for 8 years growing up. This is a kung (artistic license, if you will). There are abilities. And you add "MAGIC" of persistence over time and you get abilities beyond the average.
Plain and simple.

No claims. No magic.

The fruit of practice is skill. I agree, not much to argue there.

What or how would you define a real 'kung?'

From your posts you have make a point that MMA guys don't get it, and that the world is full of haters, but there hasn't been a lot of talk about what "it" is...

[YouKnowWho]

What or how would you define a real 'kung?'

I'll define skill as school work and Kung as home work. I'll call this as TCMA Kung training that our MMA friends will never believe it can work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc

[Yum Cha]

I'll define skill as school work and Kung as home work. I'll call this as TCMA Kung training that our MMA friends will never believe it can work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc

OK, sorry, I was thinking about demonstrations of skill, not training. I'll have a nap.

[Syn7]

i think strength and conditioning are very important in a fight... and isnt that what kungs all about??? i think thats dope... you see it in alot of cultures... like a midwestern farmboy flipping tractor tires from one end of the ranch to the other... hanging upside down and putting water from bucket on the ground to a bucket by your feet with a laidle seems like a dope core exersise to me...

[Northwind]

From your posts you have make a point that MMA guys don't get it, and that the world is full of haters, but there hasn't been a lot of talk about what "it" is...
Please don't get me confused with someone else. I didn't say that.

[ginosifu]

What or how would you define a real 'kung?'


Other than a style of kung fu, something that increases a styles effectiveness maybe?

Like strength training or plum flower poles or jumping skill or IP?

ginosifu