Throws of the north?

[Northwind]

I've seen recent threads within posts that bring mention of throws within TCMA (at least there's a minute thank you to mma guys), and I see people talking about them. A couple of people compare them to the Japanese arts and use Japanese terminology - for me this means nothing as I've no experience with Japanese throwing arts.

However, being a Northern Shaolin practitioner, I find a lot of throws etc. in our systems and can see that other Northern styles/sub-styles would have similar.

I guess my question is ... is this a northern thing? Or do some southern systems also have these little goodies in there as well?

[SPJ]

Shuai jiao is popular in the north. Qing court had shuai jiao camp. Most if not all northern styles also train shuai jiao. It is like tan tui incorporated in all northern styles. Moslem, Mongolian shuai jiao etc were all merged.

----

:)

[Northwind]

Although I agree that many northern styles have throws (like my original posit), I would not say that "Most if not all northern styles also train shuai jiao". That I pretty strongly disagree with (unless you are using the name of a style to represent symbolically a type of technique). The first throws etc. I learned came from Tan Tui, so I definitely like your inclusion of it here.

Still curious to know if any southern systems have this type of thing in them or not, as my exposure to southern styles is limited.

[YouKnowWho]

I've seen recent threads within posts that bring mention of throws within TCMA (at least there's a minute thank you to mma guys),
First, I brought that subject up and I'm 100% TCMA guy. There is no need to thanks to MMA guys. The "throwing skill" is not emphasized in MMA. It's emphasized in Chinese Sanshou/Sanda (1 point for kick/punch, 2 points for throw). It will be interested to list all the throws that we can find in the northern CMA system.

There are about 60 different categories of throws. IMO, the Longfist, Mantis, and Taiji have the following categories throws.

1. 踢(Ti) Forward kick
2. 撮(Cuo) Scooping kick
3. 撞T(Zhuang) runk hitting
4, 靠(Kao) Advance squeeze
5. 彈(Tan) Spring
6. 穿(Chuan) Fireman's carry
7. 扣(Kou) Knee Seize
8. 切(Qie) Front cut
9. 撳(Qin) press

Can someone help me to extend this list?

[Northwind]

Well that's awesome!
Unfortunately, I don't know what those mean. I never learned many of the poetic or Chinese names for the movements within the forms (and am trying to pick them up as time goes on, via avenues such as this). Do you have any youtubes you could point me to in reference to the different names?

That way I can say to myself, well this move is actually called blah blah, so no need for me to mention it - as it's already been done. But if it's something different I can say this is a throw we do, but I have no name for it (and perhaps you/others can tell me the proper name).

[YouKnowWho]

May be it's easier the other way around. We can describe a TCMA throw and then we try to map to the category name. This way we can see how many throws that we have.

For example, the Mantis "waist chop" can be executed in 3 different ways.

- 切(Qie) Front cut
- 撮(Cuo) Scooping kick
- 踢(Ti) Forward kick

[bawang]

i think its a northern thing man. i think southern kung fu is afraid of physical touching
mongolian and manchu dominate wrestling.

[YouKnowWho]

mongolian and manchu dominate wrestling.

I would call that "muslim Chinese" dominate SC instead. The 3 major SC branches in China are Beijing, Tianjin, and Baoding (all in Hebei province). Almost 100% muslim Chinese trained SC in those 3 major cities. The Chinese muslim call SC as "the monority Chinese self-defense skill".

[bawang]

I would call that "muslim Chinese" dominate SC instead. The 3 major SC branches in China are Beijing, Tianjin, and Baoding (all in Hopei province). Almost 100% muslim Chinese trained SC in those 3 major cities. The Chinese muslim call SC as "the monority Chinese self-defense skill".
wow man relly? thats coo. i always thought manchus dominated beijing with buku.
but at least for modern times mongolians dominate wrestling. lots of sanda and shuaijiao champs come from inner mongolia mang.

[Violent Designs]

northern china > southern china.

northern food > southern food.

northern women > southern women.

northern weather > southern weather (the north has real seasons, the south is just hot and sh1t)

i don't need to go on anymore. :D

[Yum Cha]

YouKnowWho,
What do you know about arm drags, and pulling "sok sau"(?) techniques. They are not really throws, but its close....

I think this is more common in the Southern styles, but very under utilised.

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure what you mean "Sok Sau". The arm drags or pulling (Like Taiji LU?) should belong to the "撳(Qin) - press, downward pulling" category. Most of the pulling (arm drag) needs to be combined with leg movement. That leg movement then define what kind of throw that you are using. For example, you can drag your opponent's arm and "spring" one of his leg. That throw will be categoried as 彈(Tan) Spring. This is just like the Taiji "push" is not a throw. But you can add "push" along with your leg movement such as hook, scoop, trap, cut, ... This is why a Taiji guy's "push" can only push his opponent away, and cannot throw his opponent down becuase he did not control his opponent's legs.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you have any youtubes you could point me to in reference to the different names?

David C. K. Lin in Atlanta, GA has a new book that may have everything that you need if you are interesting in the Chinese throwing art.

http://combatshuaichiao.com/merchandise.html

[Yum Cha]

Not sure what you mean "Sok Sau". The arm drags or pulling (Like Taiji LU?) should belong to the "撳(Qin) - press, downward pulling" category. Most of the pulling (arm drag) needs to be combined with leg movement. That leg movement then define what kind of throw that you are using. For example, you can drag your opponent's arm and "spring" one of his leg. That throw will be categoried as 彈(Tan) Spring. This is just like the Taiji "push" is not a throw. But you can add "push" along with your leg movement such as hook, scoop, trap, cut, ... This is why a Taiji guy's "push" can only push his opponent away, and cannot throw his opponent down becuase he did not control his opponent's legs.

Sok sau, sorry for my abysmal Canto, is like a twitching pull. You have grip, then you jerk inward quickly. it practically feels like someone is pulling your arm out of the socket...

If you sink it low, the acceleration and change in direction pulls people off balance. Integrating foot checking, or attacking would make it ruthless! ouch!

[Yum Cha]

Another Chin na question....

Do you grab with the thumb, first and second finger, or with the thumb and the last three fingers, with a loose index? Or does it vary?

[YouKnowWho]

Integrating foot checking,
That's the key.


Another Chin na question....

Do you grab with the thumb, first and second finger, or with the thumb and the last three fingers, with a loose index? Or does it vary?

- The eagle claw system grabs with the thumb, first and second finger.
- The Mantis system grabs with the thumb and the last three fingers.
- The SC system grabs with all 5 fingers.

[EarthDragon]

heres a list for you, youknowwho this is from 8 step mantis and my notebook.


1. GO
2. SWAI
3. KO
4. BOW
5. CHING
6. SHAW
7. SWA
8 CHEIDA
9. LABIE
10. BUNG TIAO
11. DING KUAI
12. DIAO LOU
13. AN CHI
14. TWAI DUNG
15. YA TIAO
16. TAN HING
17. JIAN TUI
18. DA HUH
19. CHAN TUI
20. LIKANG
21. CHUAN DANG
22. SO BEI
23. SO HUH
24. SAN BA BIE
25. ZA BA BIE
26. JIA LIANG TI
27. CHEN DI TI
29. XIA BA DENG
28 SAN BA DENG
30. FEN SOU KANG
31. LUO SOU BIE
32. ZUA WAI CHUAI
33. HUN TUI KANG
34. TUAN DANG KOW
35. MA BOU TI
36. KAU TUI DI
37. XUEN BU TI
38. QUI TUI DA HUH
39. LOW
40. FAN TI

[YouKnowWho]

Let me try to translate this list (some I just can't find the right Chinese character for it):

1. GO - upward hook
2. SWAI - ?
3. KO - knee seize
4. BOW - embrace
5. CHING - downward pulling
6. SHAW - sharpen
7. SWA - ?
8 CHEIDA - front cut strike
9. LABIE - pulling block
10. BUNG TIAO - leg lift
11. DING KUAI - knee lift
12. DIAO LOU - diagonal pulling
13. AN CHI - knee press
14. TWAI DUNG - ?
15. YA TIAO - leg lift
16. TAN HING - spring
17. JIAN TUI - leg seize
18. DA HUH - inner hook
19. CHAN TUI - leg twist
20. LIKANG - ?
21. CHUAN DANG - fireman's carry I
22. SO BEI - hand block
23. SO HUH - hand harmony
24. SAN BA BIE - upperbody control leg block
25. ZA BA BIE - lower body control leg block
26. JIA LIANG TI - arm locking kick
27. CHEN DI TI - forward marching kick
29. XIA BA DENG - lower body control ?
28 SAN BA DENG - upper body control ?
30. FEN SOU KANG - shoulder carry
31. LUO SOU BIE - arm pulling leg block
32. ZUA WAI CHUAI - outer bowing
33. HUN TUI KANG - shoulder carry
34. TUAN DANG KOW - fireman's carry II
35. MA BOU TI - neck mopping kick
36. KAU TUI DI - ?
37. XUEN BU TI - kick?
38. QUI TUI DA HUH - knee down inner hook
39. LOW - outer hook
40. FAN TI - foot sweep against foot sweep

[EarthDragon]

thats awesome, I know these throws like the back of my hand but in application.. LOL not in translation, my chinese sounds OK verbally but i still cant read or write it.

[YouKnowWho]

That's a lot of throws there. I don't believe they all came from 8 step Mantis system. Some throws must come from "cross training".

[EarthDragon]

actually they are all in 8 step from master Feng Hua Yi, he was a shuai Jaio and eagle claw master and took 40 of the throws from Shuai Jiao and added them to his shifu's (Chiang Hui Long) newly designed plumb flower hybrid system ba bu

[YouKnowWho]

That explain it. It's very difficult to find any CMA style to have that many throws.

[EarthDragon]

yes we are quite lucky, though some dont work on certain opponets, size, height, weight, flexibility etc etc so you pick and choose.

8 step is a hybrid of 14 other styles so we kinda got the best of alot of worlds all put into 1 system, this is why i love it so much. I dont have to look to fill any voids like i did with karate or hung gar

[lkfmdc]

Someone, quick, write down all the Chinese names - it is almost impossible to get these lists anymore

[jdhowland]

Choy Lee Fut is a southern system with some northern roots. It has a lot of kam na/ chin na grappling but doesn't emphasize pure throwing skills. It features a lot of attacking the horse, unbalancing, takedown or knockdown skills but operates mainly as a boxing system.

The so-called "Tibetan" schools of Lama, White Crane and Hop Ga were developed in Gwangdong but retained most of their northern heritage. They include a lot of throws which my teacher referred to as Mongolian wrestling.

I've trained in Mongolian wrestling and don't see many similarities. Besides the grips and the forward-leaning clinch the main difference is in the footwork. Mongolian wrestling does not allow the heels to touch the ground (because of the structure of the boots worn in competition). Some have suggested that there is or was a "combat" style of Tibetan and Mongolian wrestling that was the basis for our system but I have seen no evidence of it.

I see a closer affinity to northern shuai jiao with its propensity for debilitating throws and possible combat applications. Could be that Tibetan, Mongolian, Manchurian and otherwise northern wrestling styles have always been intertwined. Those folks really got around. Know how the first Dalai Lama got his title? Mongolian politics.

[Yum Cha]

Let me try to translate this list (some I just can't find the right Chinese character for it):

1. GO - upward hook
2. SWAI - ?
3. KO - knee seize
4. BOW - embrace
5. CHING - downward pulling
6. SHAW - sharpen
7. SWA - ?
8 CHEIDA - front cut strike
9. LABIE - pulling block
10. BUNG TIAO - leg lift
11. DING KUAI - knee lift
12. DIAO LOU - diagonal pulling
13. AN CHI - knee press
14. TWAI DUNG - ?
15. YA TIAO - leg lift
16. TAN HING - spring
17. JIAN TUI - leg seize
18. DA HUH - inner hook
19. CHAN TUI - leg twist
20. LIKANG - ?
21. CHUAN DANG - fireman's carry I
22. SO BEI - hand block
23. SO HUH - hand harmony
24. SAN BA BIE - upperbody control leg block
25. ZA BA BIE - lower body control leg block
26. JIA LIANG TI - arm locking kick
27. CHEN DI TI - forward marching kick
29. XIA BA DENG - lower body control ?
28 SAN BA DENG - upper body control ?
30. FEN SOU KANG - shoulder carry
31. LUO SOU BIE - arm pulling leg block
32. ZUA WAI CHUAI - outer bowing
33. HUN TUI KANG - shoulder carry
34. TUAN DANG KOW - fireman's carry II
35. MA BOU TI - neck mopping kick
36. KAU TUI DI - ?
37. XUEN BU TI - kick?
38. QUI TUI DA HUH - knee down inner hook
39. LOW - outer hook
40. FAN TI - foot sweep against foot sweep

Is that a curriculum, or just names that apply to techniques?

[EarthDragon]

This is the names of the throws 8 step uses from shuai jiao

[YouKnowWho]

Is that a curriculum, or just names that apply to techniques?
Both the Ti and Bie principles all contain more than 30 different throws. That's how complicate the Chinese throwing art is. Chinese old saying said, "The major Chinese throw contain 360 throws. The number of the minor Chinese throws can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body."

26. 架樑踢JIA LIANG TI - arm locking kick
27. 前进踢CHEN DI TI - forward marching kick

24. 上把别SAN BA BIE - upperbody control leg block
25. 下把别ZA BA BIE - lower body control leg block

[SoCo KungFu]

Some of the throws I use in MMA I learned in mantis. Most people think they came from Judo, prob cuz they are exactly like some of the ones in Judo. The Hung Ga school I was in did some throws and they supplemented with SC every couple weeks. But my Hung Gar sifu put more emphasis on just blasting through and going hulk smash. He was also very big so.....

[SPJ]

Both the Ti and Bie principles all contain more than 30 different throws. That's how complicate the Chinese throwing art is. Chinese old saying said, "The major Chinese throw contain 360 throws. The number of the minor Chinese throws can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body."

26. 架樑踢JIA LIANG TI - arm locking kick
27. 前进踢CHEN DI TI - forward marching kick

24. 上把别SAN BA BIE - upperbody control leg block
25. 下把别ZA BA BIE - lower body control leg block

excellent, with chinese characters

I was getting a headache, just trying to figure out what they are in chinese.

:cool:

[Yum Cha]

Both the Ti and Bie principles all contain more than 30 different throws. That's how complicate the Chinese throwing art is. Chinese old saying said, "The major Chinese throw contain 360 throws. The number of the minor Chinese throws can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body."

26. 架樑踢JIA LIANG TI - arm locking kick
27. 前进踢CHEN DI TI - forward marching kick

24. 上把别SAN BA BIE - upperbody control leg block
25. 下把别ZA BA BIE - lower body control leg block

Thanks, I'll have to find out more....you are the first Chin na person I've met. Its very interesting....

[EarthDragon]

this is one fo my favorite hrows, its called Beng Tiao, its quick simple but ruthless.

5904

[YouKnowWho]

this is one fo my favorite hrows, its called Beng Tiao, its quick simple but ruthless.

5904

Just trying to continue the discussion on this thread. Could you explain how do you do your 崩挑(Beng Tiao)? In that picture, it seems to me that you are pulling your opponent's left arm. Is that a follow through of a Mantis "waist chop"?

[EarthDragon]

geez, explian in text? LOl OK I will give it a try..... opponent throws a right punch (jab), you mantis grab (gou) with your right hand pull arm down and counter punch (cross) to his face, opponent blocks, you then step behind your own leg into a X- leg stance while you grab this tricept area , or grab the jacket or shirt on his right shoulder, and you lock his elbow of his left hand across your chest this is called (Beng) then you snap the hips counter clockwise while turning and lifting (Tiao) your right leg, up towards the ceiling.

your opponent has his elbow locked as wll he cannot jump higher then you lift your leg so he goes feet over head and lands on the mat while you still have his arm locked.

its quick simple and very effective. I will post some of these throws on my new website as examples, but its a work in progress but shoudl be done this month i hope.
hope that helps

[EarthDragon]

heres another angle that shows the leg lift (Tiao)

5908

[YouKnowWho]

That's what I thought. The same set up as the Mantis "引針腰斬(Yin Zhen Yao Zhan) - waist chop".

[EarthDragon]

yeah kind of a variation of wasit chop, its a nice throw it can come right off a uppercut or any time the arms get tied up.