How is street fighting any different than Sports fighting?

[hskwarrior]

A street fighter isn’t someone who has trained to fight. But, he is a person who has been in a number of fights and learns from each one. A street fighter has no rules to follow. When a street confrontation happens you have to worry about being jumped even if the fight started out one on one. You have to worry about the cement, tree’s, cars, glass on the ground, or any other items that may be used to injure you on the street. And in the streets its usually never one on one.
A streetfight is NEVER fair and usually over in moments. It’s brutal and sometimes can end in death depending on the situation. A street fighter isn’t worried about the law and going to jail when his life was on the line. Unlike many peace loving type of people (including some martial artists), a street fighter is prepared to fight at the drop of a dime because in the environment he lives in things happen very quicky and aggressively and he cannot afford to be “CAUGHT SLIPPIN”.

The method a street fighter uses to spar is “Slap Boxing.” It’s fun, but you’re also learning to work your skills out against a non compliant partner who is Slap Boxing you back. Take downs are included in slap boxing and sometimes grappling takes place on a basic street level. All in all he gets to learn how to move and react to FIGHTING. He tests out his skills in very real street fights...not organized hood fights but “hey neega, you just bumped into me and didn’t say excuse me” now they’re fighting in the middle of the streets stopping traffic.
In a bigger picture a street fighter has alot more to deal with than a sports fighter. And as i’ve mentioned, a street fight only lasts a minute or two tops. So the streetfighter is conditioned for quick spurts only.

The one MAJOR difference between a sports fighter and a street fighter is the sports fighters TRAINS TO FIGHT virtually every day and is conditioned to a higher level comapred to TMA. A Sports fighters game plan is refined and improved and has more of an arsonal than a street fighter does. Mainly because he TRAINS on a consistant level.

The only difference between a ring fight and a street fight is the obvious. Sports fighters wear cups, gloves, mouth guards, fight on matts, have more rules than a street fighter to follow, fight in rounds and conserve their energy so they fight at a slower pace, and we can’t forget the referee’s. Street fighers fight in the exact opposite manner. REGARDLESS, this does not negate the fact that both the street and the sports fighters ARE FIGHTERS. It’s just to what extent IMHO.

The Street side of me is heavily attracted to MMA fights because it is the closest thing you can get to raw out and out fighting. One side does it out of necessity and the other does it out of choice. One is disciplined one is not. One is more conditioned and the other is not. One is professionally trained and the other is not. It’s a HUGE difference between the two in regards to level and quality of fighting, but a street fighter isn’t called such for no reason either. Both are fighters.

But it’s also my opinion that a street fighter has an advantage out in the streets because of certain elements that MMA doesn’t experience. Like being jumped, or dealing with weapons, and stuff like that. But if you want to compare to two...Sports fighters are superior due to their training. But if you get a good street fighter off the streets and train him to be a sports fighter i believe HE will bring something to the ring more-so than someone who is a sports fighter but never had a street fight in his life before becoming a sports fighter. But, this is just my opinion.

Still, any kind of fighting is far better than those passive arse pushies who allow people to bully them, to assualt them and let it go unanswered, you know...those christian peoples. They always turn their cheek and offer up the other side of their face for us to smack! JK LOL.

But yeah! :D

[SanHeChuan]

Sports’ fighting is for people who make good life decisions
And
Street fighting is for people who make bad life decisions


Sports fighters test their skills against competent skilled opponents
And
Street fighters fight the poorly trained, often impaired, and unaware they face a trained fighter


Sports fighter can legally find willing opponents in sanctioned events every couple of months
And
Street fighters who habitually engage in felonious assaults end up in jail.

[hskwarrior]

Sports’ fighting is for people who make good life decisions
And
Street fighting is for people who make bad life decisions


Sports fighters test their skills against competent skilled opponents
And
Street fighters fight the poorly trained, often impaired, and unaware they face a trained fighter


Sports fighter can legally find willing opponents in sanctioned events every couple of months
And
Street fighters who habitually engage in felonious assaults end up in jail.

don't hate. LOL....

[TenTigers]

Sports’ fighting is for people who make good life decisions
And
Street fighting is for people who make bad life decisions


Sports fighters test their skills against competent skilled opponents
And
Street fighters fight the poorly trained, often impaired, and unaware they face a trained fighter.

um..that sounds like the right decision to me...

[hskwarrior]

um..that sounds like the right decision to me...

lmao......

[SanHeChuan]

um..that sounds like the right decision to me...

Sure if you don't want to challenge yourselves and stagnate your development. ;)


Sports fighters challenge themselves in safe, and controlled environment.
And
Street fighters can find themselves in a situation where their skills are not enough and die.


Sports’ fighting is an opportunity to regularly test your skills and seek self improvement.
And
Street fighting is an opportunity to put douche bags in their place by being a bigger douche bag.


Sports fighters are athletes.
And
Street fighters are criminals.

[TenTigers]

if you are a sportfighter attacked in the street, and defend yourself, guess what? You are now officially streetfighting.
I don't think that automatically gives you douchebag cred.
Likewise, if you practice for self-defense, or for any other purpose, say, love of the art, whatever, and defend yourself,
again, no db cred.
Nobody's arguing that training for sport-with contact and going outside the small fishbowl does not make for a more skilled fighter.
BTW-if you're a douchebag, and a sportfighter...you're still a douchebag.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Seems like lots of sport fighters also have street fighting backgrounds:

http://www.mmatko.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/cabbage.jpg

http://www.1800-sports.com/images/kimbo-slice-betting.jpg

http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/headers/20090213020841_big_tank.JPG

Probably why a majority of sport fighters got into it in the first place.

[hskwarrior]

Yes street fighters who LOVE to fight eventually go into some kind of professional training. those who compete in sports fighting usually do better than the others in my opinion.

[hskwarrior]

if you are a sportfighter attacked in the street, and defend yourself, guess what? You are now officially streetfighting.
I don't think that automatically gives you douchebag cred.
Likewise, if you practice for self-defense, or for any other purpose, say, love of the art, whatever, and defend yourself,agin, no db cred.

hahahah "stay away from the streets man or your credibility as a sports fighters will be smudged man....bad for business."

[SanHeChuan]

if you are a sportfighter attacked in the street, and defend yourself, guess what? You are now officially streetfighting.
I don't think that automatically gives you douchebag cred.


How often do you get randomly attacked?

If it only happens a few times in your entire life it's not a good or reliable training method.

If it happens every couple of months you make poor life decisions which in turn makes you a douche bag.

[hskwarrior]

How often do you get randomly attacked?

If it only happens a few times in your entire life it's not a good or reliable training method.

If it happens every couple of months you make poor life decisions which in turn makes you a douche bag.

ahhhhh the sound of spirituality! :D

[SanHeChuan]

Would you encourage a student of yours to go out and fight people on the streets as a method of testing their skills?

[hskwarrior]

Would you encourage a student of yours to go out and fight people on the streets as a method of testing their skills?

There's nothing wrong with the street being a place to teach you to fight. Sports fighting is for who? Thugs? well....LOL...but seriously sports fighting is for athletes. Look at the average MMA guy compared to the average martial art guy. the MMA guy is far more physically conditioned than the average martial art guy.

to answer your question....my students learn martial arts because they know that they want to have better fighting skills to deal with people who can fight already. they're not trying to MMA fighters but they want to be able to effectively protect their family and loved ones. And when you're from the inner city fighting is a very very common thing. Inner city kids have to deal with alot of threats in the streets. So although i would prefer my students to safely test their skills at MMA or UFC levels, and this is where i'm gearing my students towards (sports fighting) the simple fact is that my students still have to protect themselves outside of the ring.

I don't tell my students "hey, go out and beat someone up tonite or don't come back"......no. But i do tell my students "if some dude walks up on you and you know you're gonna have to fight this guy no matter what, then do you best and bring the fight to him. and if you lose the fight make him regret ever fighting you".......

What i DO tell my students is protect yourself, your family, and if you have to our elderly folk or little children. all else isn't your business. (few exceptions though like a guy beating on his woman in public.)

[Yum Cha]

In another thread, almost universally people remarked that in reality they had had harder fights in the ring than on the street.

There's just that element of risk...

[hskwarrior]

In another thread, almost universally people remarked that in reality they had had harder fights in the ring than on the street.

There's just that element of risk...

well that and the fact that you're not in a rush to get the fight over as a street guy would be.

[TenTigers]

it's funny, but I've actually had teachers who while understanding the moral issues, admitted that going out and testing your Gung-Fu was the best way.
But, I agree that the sportfighting that is available to us now is the best course of action.
I guess I was lucky. My Tang Soo Do instructor trained PKA fighters,and we had a few pro fighters in our school, so I was able to get regular beatings. But I also took jobs in security and at bars for the non-sport training.
in retrospect, working security for the Tower of Power concert promoted by the black student's union might not have been the wisest of choices...

[Yum Cha]

The missing link in MA training for many is pain. In itself, its an important lesson, and an efficient teacher.

Once you get past that milestone, the chaos abates a bit and you can really work technique.

[Jimbo]

There's nothing wrong with the street being a place to teach you to fight. Sports fighting is for who? Thugs? well....LOL...but seriously sports fighting is for athletes. Look at the average MMA guy compared to the average martial art guy. the MMA guy is far more physically conditioned than the average martial art guy.

to answer your question....my students learn martial arts because they know that they want to have better fighting skills to deal with people who can fight already. they're not trying to MMA fighters but they want to be able to effectively protect their family and loved ones. And when you're from the inner city fighting is a very very common thing. Inner city kids have to deal with alot of threats in the streets. So although i would prefer my students to safely test their skills at MMA or UFC levels, and this is where i'm gearing my students towards (sports fighting) the simple fact is that my students still have to protect themselves outside of the ring.

I don't tell my students "hey, go out and beat someone up tonite or don't come back"......no. But i do tell my students "if some dude walks up on you and you know you're gonna have to fight this guy no matter what, then do you best and bring the fight to him. and if you lose the fight make him regret ever fighting you".......

What i DO tell my students is protect yourself, your family, and if you have to our elderly folk or little children. all else isn't your business. (few exceptions though like a guy beating on his woman in public.)

Good post.

I would only point out that if there's some guy beating his wife or gf in public, if you do choose to intervene, watch out. Chances are the woman will turn on you and back up her man.

[hskwarrior]

Good post.

I would only point out that if there's some guy beating his wife or gf in public, if you do choose to intervene, watch out. Chances are the woman will turn on you and back up her man.

true very true.

[mooyingmantis]

Would you encourage a student of yours to go out and fight people on the streets as a method of testing their skills?

This was typical in our area in the 70's. However, when I started teaching I discouraged it in every situation except challenge matches.

[mooyingmantis]

Good post.

I would only point out that if there's some guy beating his wife or gf in public, if you do choose to intervene, watch out. Chances are the woman will turn on you and back up her man.

And under Ohio law if the wife started the altercation she does not have the right to "self-defense". If you aid her the law will see YOU as the aggressor, not the defender.

[B.Tunks]

In another thread, almost universally people remarked that in reality they had had harder fights in the ring than on the street.

There's just that element of risk...

Very interesting. I did not see that thread but I have had a small handfull of ring fights compared to many more real fights and I have no doubt that the ring fights were by far the hardest, at least in terms of effort/work rate. Granted, I probably needed to have many more ring fights to give a more balanced view. Everyone I know with similar experiences says the same. On the other hand, I have known a few very experienced sports fighters- including a couple of national title holders, who think the opposite (i.e - ring fighting is much easier than street fighting). In my view this is simply because they are not violent by nature and can't override their programming. From my limited experience, most 'streetfighters' make terrible sport fighters as in most cases they can't adapt and have great difficulty dealing with the fact that in general their blitzkrieg type assaults are largely useless against well conditioned opponents, particularly once the element of surprise and intimidation are largely negated.

In my opinion the harder thing about 'steet' fighting is that the injuries are far worse and so are the implications. It does get a bit hard/difficult to keep going at times when your head is being stomped in. God bless referees.

BT

[RenDaHai]

@HSK

I think you have missed the most important difference between street fighting and sports fighting.

The most important difference (in my opinion and experience) is the psychological difference.

In a sports fight, even a tough one, you are still well within your safety zone. You know that win or lose, when its done tomorrow will be the same as today.

A street fight is not like that at all. Off course the opponents are no way near as skilled. But when you look in someones eyes and you see they want to kill you, and your not even sure why, then its a pretty nasty thing. It makes all sorts of instinctual body reactions happen that don't in a ring fight.

YOu know that tomorrow is not going to be the same as today. Either you get seriously hurt (mentally and physically) or you are going to seriously hurt someone else (Its not so easy to bring yourself to do it). Not only that but EVERYONE is going to know what happened. The police will be involved. There will be legal action. What if you kill someone? What if someone is killed because you couldn't stop it? What if you are killed? Your life could change forever based on your reaction in the next few seconds. In less than a second this all enters your head and it confuses you and stays your hand.

If you are experienced you can stop these thoughts and make a quick decision. But all the ring fighting in the world doesn't prepare you for that moment.

[Yum Cha]

@HSK

...A street fight is not like that at all. Off course the opponents are no way near as skilled. But when you look in someones eyes and you see they want to kill you, and your not even sure why, then its a pretty nasty thing. It makes all sorts of instinctual body reactions happen that don't in a ring fight.

YOu know that tomorrow is not going to be the same as today. Either you get seriously hurt (mentally and physically) or you are going to seriously hurt someone else (Its not so easy to bring yourself to do it). Not only that but EVERYONE is going to know what happened. The police will be involved. There will be legal action. What if you kill someone? What if someone is killed because you couldn't stop it? What if you are killed? Your life could change forever based on your reaction in the next few seconds. In less than a second this all enters your head and it confuses you and stays your hand.

If you are experienced you can stop these thoughts and make a quick decision. But all the ring fighting in the world doesn't prepare you for that moment.

Yea, or you hit them and they run away....

[SteveLau]

The most important difference (in my opinion and experience) is the psychological difference.


That might be true.

IMHO, the main difference and an important one is that street fighting has less rules to comply with, and thus less ethical. It does not mean to me that it is wrong. Because why the fight occurs is different. In street fighting, quite often one is being forced to fight. And the stakes are usually higher than those in sports fighting.



P.S. I have met a x%#%xxx guy before who said that street fighting has no rule.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[hskwarrior]

The most important difference (in my opinion and experience) is the psychological difference.

Nah, i never forgot that. i may not have put it down in this thread but i never forgot that.


A street fight is not like that at all. Off course the opponents are no way near as skilled. But when you look in someones eyes and you see they want to kill you, and your not even sure why, then its a pretty nasty thing. It makes all sorts of instinctual body reactions happen that don't in a ring fight.

I did say that a street fighter can go from 0-60 and the above is the reason why. If you don't have that KILLER in you you won't survive anyone beating you up on the streets. But the look in his eye does not scare me as much as his INTENT...a look can't kill you but his intent can.


The most important difference (in my opinion and experience) is the psychological difference.

yes. i agree here. For example, i got that good mean mug face and people i've come across say i look mean. I'd take all of that when i'm alone and when most people would walk around a group of young thugs i'd have a habit of walking through the center of them as they would open up a path and let me through. i show no fear and for being s short fat guy people are assuming i'd be a push over. but thats not really the case. LOL

YOu know that tomorrow is not going to be the same as today. Either you get seriously hurt (mentally and physically) or you are going to seriously hurt someone else (Its not so easy to bring yourself to do it).

This is why every street fighter i know wants and hopes someone stops the fight because once its on someone is going to get hurt. If not, the fight goes on till one person stops moving.

And i disagree that its not an easy thing to do to want to hurt someone. it may not be easy to do for someone in the suburbs or someone who hasn't experienced inner city violence. but where i grew up, if you do not fight to hurt someone you are going to be the one that gets hurt. this is how i grew up.


Not only that but EVERYONE is going to know what happened. The police will be involved. There will be legal action.

Just ask any person that lives in the hood if he's afraid of going to jail for getting into a fight. i bet you the number of people who say NO will be greater than the people that say yes.


What if someone is killed because you couldn't stop it? What if you are killed? Your life could change forever based on your reaction in the next few seconds.

This is all an accepted idea and is the reason people in the hood fight so hard. so they don't get killed. but growing up in that environment people are conditioned for the worst case scenario. like i've said in the past, my older brother lost his eye in a fight and in another one he was stabbed in his chest and it ripped down his bicep. got pictures to show for it too.

I've been involved in fights at a party where afterwards the other party came back and shot up the restaurant some of our friends were in. One guy got shot in the head and was blinded for life. people in San Francisco accept this way of life. some don't like it, but the ones that live it have no choice but to accept it cause they're not well off enough to move out of it.

When you have to live the streets you become the streets. you not only know how to fight, but you know how to pick and chose your fights, know when to run for your life or fight for it. those who live PLEASANTVILLE types of lives will never comprehend what it takes to live in the hood. But if you're born into it, you learn things much faster in life than others....like fighting. My first fight in fact took place when i was four years old. No sh!t. my older brother would back that up because he was there and was the one who pushed me to fight back when i got punched in the face by a kid two years older than me.

I guess you can say my older bro is the one who started me fighting because man he used to kick my arse. i we were so poor growing up he talked me into sparring with him when i was like 6 or 7 and he put socks over his hands telling me they were like boxing gloves and that it wouldn't hurt.....WHAT A MUDDA CHUKKIN LIAR! LOL

[Syn7]

A streetfight is NEVER fair

the trick is to make sure its always drastically unfair.... in your favor, of course...

[hskwarrior]

the trick is to make sure its always drastically unfair.... in your favor, of course...

exactly.

I understand the psychology of the streets because of being born there...didn't MOVE there i was born in the hood.

@RenDaHai: I do understand the psychology of the streets and even use it to teach my students. For example, if you've been in a street confrontation with an intimidating person you'd notice that he STARES deep into your eyes trying to instill that fear in you that he's gonna MOIDALIZE you! Cause he's a MAN..a TOUGH MAN...you're nothing but a punk in his eyes. so getting all up in your face is part of that intimidation.

So i tell me students the one thing an intimidating person hates is when you stand up to him cause then's is a game of who's better at getting in your face. STARE back in their eyes and keep the focus RIGHT THERE....EYE TO EYE....and when you're ready hit him in the nuts so hard you lift him off the floor. i won't punch, we have a rising crane hand that we use in CLF and i'll hit you in the nuts so hard you can rename them SCRAMBLED EGGS. a nut shot is so much more effective when the guy isn't prepared for it. make ya wanna die. LOL

[Mr Serenity]

I enjoy reading threads like this. I was born into the streets of Los Angeles. All my life outside of my apartment there is gang writing (graffiti) everywhere. Even on the trees. It's their way of decorating their territory. But I just look at them as roaches in this concrete jungle. They're just pests without discipline or honor.

I jog to the gym several times a week in these graffiti covered streets at whatever time I want, even late at night and they never mess with me. Because I don't give them ****, but at the same time I'm fearless, and they know if they gave me **** I'd knock all their front teeth out. So often they cross the street when I'm walking towards them because I walk with warrior spirit, that makes them afraid without me even saying anything.

My uncle has no martial art experience, but yet he has been in over 60 street fights and out of all of them he has never been knocked to his ass even once. He's not a big man either, I'd say about 5.8, 170 pounds. Out of all the experienced fighters I know he is the one with the most warrior spirit.

When you enter in a fight with him, you're already dead he says. There is no chance that you can beat him in his own mind. And this is a guy without martial arts training. Though he has served time. People like him would be able to defeat most martial artists despite their training. Because I know plenty of martial artists that are actually pussies, despite their training, like vegetarians or scared of non venomous snakes for examples.

So I believe more than the actual training itself, it is the mind of a fighter that makes you potent in a real fight. It is the mind and intent to be able to think there is no way in hell this guy can beat me, and you have already lost by even looking at me the wrong way. That is what it takes to win a serious fight without rules.

Sport fights are not street fights. That's not to say sport fights aren't serious, but at the same time. A lot of sport fighters would not have the mind to be able to handle the crazy and vicious guys of the street. To beat these guys on the street you have to be ready to be more vicious than them.

Chances are though if you can afford $100+ a month to be training in serious MMA you will not have to be walking the type of streets I walk, where you might actually need your training.

[goju]

Sport fights are not street fights. That's not to say sport fights aren't serious, but at the same time. A lot of sport fighters would not have the mind to be able to handle the crazy and vicious guys of the street. To beat these guys on the street you have to be ready to be more vicious than them.



You can be as crazy as you like but if the guys skilled chances are your crazyness isnt gonna be much use.


fighters as well imply that mentality where they invision their opponent not being able to beat them and carry that mind set where there is no possible way they will lose. It's quite common actually.

[hskwarrior]

Because I don't give them ****, but at the same time I'm fearless,

that is the secret. its when you are all afraid and they can see it it means you don't fit in and are not from there. you become that easy target. but i totally relate to you brother. my mom died when i was around eleven and when i was younger than that she used to send me to the corner store with a bat or chain or something to protect myself.


It is the mind and intent to be able to think there is no way in hell this guy can beat me, and you have already lost by even looking at me the wrong way

that is something i also teach my students. they always say "but he's so much bigger than me" and i tell them "You already lost then. because i don't care if he's a big a$$ Samoan, and NOBODY is just going to whip my a$$. there's a difference behind a sports mentality fighting to win, but a street fighter's mind set its do or die. there's no chance for fuk ups. one slip up could mean your head being slammed repeatedly into the cement. kicked in the head or face. so a street fighter HAS to have that "YOU"RE NOT KICKING MY A$$ MUDDA CHUKKA" frame of mind.

[goju]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9q5jw_mma-fighter-vs-street-thug_sport

this is what it will look like 99 percent of the time when you put a combat athlete against a street fighter:D

[Kansuke]

"craziness" = some spaz who has no idea what he's doing and is scared to death.

[Mr Serenity]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9q5jw_mma-fighter-vs-street-thug_sport

this is what it will look like 99 percent of the time when you put a combat athlete against a street fighter:D

The black guy who is supposed to be a "thug" stops his half assed punches to pull his pants up. That's not a real fight, it's like a "sparring for camera" fight. A real thug will keep swinging without stopping. Or might even take out a blade if its a private fight without a crowd. Knives are cheap, very easy to get over guns. Most serious gang members carry them.

So if you're learning self defense without incorporating modern weapons. It's incomplete.

[hskwarrior]

The black guy who is supposed to be a "thug" stops his half assed punches to pull his pants up. That's not a real fight, it's like a "sparring for camera" fight. A real thug will keep swinging without stopping. Or might even take out a blade if its a private fight without a crowd. Knives are cheap, very easy to get over guns. Most serious gang members carry them.

the black dude didn't know how to fight. he'd get mashed on out here.

[hskwarrior]

Knives are cheap, very easy to get over guns. Most serious gang members carry them.

me and my friends used to carry the old school afro picks with metal teeth. and funny thing was not everyone was black. LOL.....but it made one helluva weapon when choppin at his face with it.

[YouKnowWho]

This was the most commonly used street fight weapon in Taiwan many years ago.

http://big5.hoohoohoo.com/hoonews/news_563196.html

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5819/streetweapon.jpg

[goju]

The black guy who is supposed to be a "thug" stops his half assed punches to pull his pants up. That's not a real fight, it's like a "sparring for camera" fight. A real thug will keep swinging without stopping. Or might even take out a blade if its a private fight without a crowd. Knives are cheap, very easy to get over guns. Most serious gang members carry them.

So if you're learning self defense without incorporating modern weapons. It's incomplete.


"real" thugs often pray on the weak and defenseless in their communities and have to join up in a gang because they dont have the proverbial cajones to do anything on their own.

You take a thug out of his safety zone ie his five or so odd friends ready to help him out if he is getting beat up and put him in a place where his posturing means little and you have that video.

[Mr Serenity]

"real" thugs often pray on the weak and defenseless in their communities and have to join up in gang because they dont have the proverbial cajones to do anything on their own.

You take a thug out of his safety zone ie his five or so odd friends ready to help him out if he is getting beat up and put him in a place where his posturing means little and you have that video.

I have seen street fights go on my entire life. And I can say without a doubt that the link you showed me did not show a real thug or a real street fight, but more a wannabe or just a sparring video that was not serious. All the street fights I have seen there is hardly no pausing it's a straight up brawl and someone gets ****ed up quick. Someones face ends up full of blood and unrecognizable. Often trips to the dentist or hospital follow soon after.

And that's not to say all thugs are good fighters because they aren't. But at the same time, most martial artists cannot deal with thugs that have that killer instinct, if they do not have it even more so in themselves. What is the bottom line though, is that most martial artists that are already good won't be getting into street fights unless they're looking for them.

Like I said earlier I am surrounded in thugs and gang members, and not even once do they mess with me. Because I am not easy prey. So yes they do look for easy prey, or for those who are afraid. But that doesn't mean they aren't capable of being able to put up a good fight. Most thugs will go after you because you disrespected them, or because you look like a p*ssy with money.

[Kansuke]

I have seen street fights go on my entire life.



Wow, they must be tired by now!

[goju]

I have seen street fights go on my entire life. And I can say without a doubt that the link you showed me did not show a real thug or a real street fight, but more a wannabe or just a sparring video that was not serious. All the street fights I have seen, someones face ends up full of blood and unrecognizable. Often trips to the dentist or hospital follow soon after.

And that's not to say all thugs are good fighters because they aren't. But at the same time, most martial artists cannot deal with thugs that have that killer instinct, if they do not have it even more so in themselves.

That video highlighted exactly what happens when the unskilled meets the skilled.

There are countless videos showing street fights ,prison fights, etc.etc and they show the same exact thing from these "thugs" . Uncoordinated sloppy attacking.

And yes i've met these unsavoury characters myself. Hell im related to some lol

I recall seeing one of the most infamous men in my old neighbour hood being slammed on the ground and choked until he begged for his life. Guess what got mr bad stuff in that situation? good ole fashion high schoolwrastlin

Guess who chokes him silly? A male nurse with a crystal clean record Lol

Mr bad ass was in and out of jail since he was 18 and now hes in there for life for murder and armed robbery, Real enough for you?

Or i recall from personal experince chasing 6 members of Galliant Knights Insane ( what a name for gang!) through the projects with one of my relatives when they chucked a frozen ice bottle at our truck.

These Galliant Knights are supposed to be one of the worst Gangs in my state. Lots of murderers and the lot among them too.

Yeeah for some reason ii would feel more comfortable fighting the local hood rat than the man whos my size, is well trained , may have more experience than me .fights other experienced guys, and can 100 percent prove himself in a combat situation.

You wanna see scary stare at someone across the ring or cage who beats people up for a living. I would take the hood rat any day over that.

[Mr Serenity]

That video highlighted exactly what happens when the unskilled meets the skilled.

There are countless videos showing street fights ,prison fights, etc.etc and they show the same exact thing from these "thugs" . Uncoordinated sloppy attacking.

And yes i've met these unsavoury characters myself. Hell im related to some lol

I recall seeing one of the most infamous men in my old neighbour hood being slammed on the ground and choked until he begged for his life. Guess what got mr bad stuff in that situation? good ole fashion high schoolwrastlin

Guess who chokes him silly? A male nurse with a crystal clean record Lol

Mr bad ass was in and out of jail since he was 18 and now hes in there for life for murder and armed robbery, Real enough for you?

Or i recall from personal experince chasing 6 members of Galliant Knights Insane ( what a name for gang!) through the projects with one of my relatives when they chucked a frozen ice bottle at our truck.

These Galliant Knights are supposed to be one of the worst Gangs in my state. Lots of murderers and the lot among them too.

Yeeah for some reason ii would feel more comfortable fighting the local hood rat than the man whos my size, is well trained , may have more experience than me .fights other experienced guys, and can 100 percent prove himself in a combat situation.

You wanna see scary stare at someone across the ring or cage who beats people up for a living. I would take the hood rat any day over that.


Here is the way I see it. You're most likely to come out alive by fighting a well trained martial artist. He probably has honor and will not kill you.

If that badass you speak of was begging for his life, he's not a badass in my book. I don't think you understand the psychology of a real thug till you meet the crips, bloods and Mexican gangs from Los Angeles. These guys are like modern rounin without honor. Every other week I see candles and pictures at a street shrine for someone who was murdered.

It's because these guys pack blades. Some of them heat. And if they lost a fight to a white man that would be complete disgrace. It would be impossible for them to lose like that, even if they have to take out their blade. These are guys that have nothing to lose.

The only people that could beat the experienced thugs in a fight without rules would be straight up savage, more than them. Someone who is also trained in weapons. If they don't take out a weapon on you they were a grunt.

[goju]

Here is the way I see it. You're most likely to come out alive by fighting a well trained martial artist. He probably has honor and will not kill you..

You realize the myth of an a noble martial artist who stands for truth and justice is just that a myth right? Quite a few fights in the Tma world have ended with someone dead.Most of the gong sau matches in china were hardly under honourable circumstances.


If that badass you speak of was begging for his life, he's not a badass in my book. I don't think you understand the psychology of a real thug till you meet the crips, bloods and Mexican gangs from Los Angeles. These guys are like modern rounin without honor. Every other week I see candles and pictures at a street shrine for someone who was murdered...

Uh.. have you ever had someone trying to choke you to death before? Machismo tends to crumble when you got one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel.


It's because these guys pack blades. Some of them heat. And if they lost a fight to a white man that would be complete disgrace. It would be impossible for them to lose like that, even if they have to take out their blade. These are guys that have nothing to lose....

So then they are hardly insane or savages if they use that kind of ration.


The only people that could beat the experienced thugs in a fight without rules would be straight up savage, more than them. Someone who is also trained in weapons. If they don't take out a weapon on you they were a grunt.


You can be as savage as you like but you can just as easily be knocked out or choked unconcious as the next guy. your mental state is useless if you do not have the physical capabilties to back it up.

[Frost]

Sports’ fighting is for people who make good life decisions
And
Street fighting is for people who make bad life decisions


And
Street fighters who habitually engage in felonious assaults end up in jail.

tell that to lee murrey LMAO :)

[Frost]

You realize the myth of an a noble martial artist who stands for truth and justice is just that a myth right? Quite a few fights in the Tma world have ended with someone dead.Most of the gong sau matches in china were hardly under honourable circumstances.



Uh.. have you ever had someone trying to choke you to death before? Machismo tends to crumble when you got one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel.



So then they are hardly insane or savages if they use that kind of ration.




You can be as savage as you like but you can just as easily be knocked out or choked unconcious as the next guy. your mental state is useless if you do not have the physical capabilties to back it up.

please please stop making so much sense my brain cant handle it !:eek:

[MightyB]

that is the secret. its when you are all afraid and they can see it it means you don't fit in and are not from there. you become that easy target. but i totally relate to you brother. my mom died when i was around eleven and when i was younger than that she used to send me to the corner store with a bat or chain or something to protect myself.



that is something i also teach my students. they always say "but he's so much bigger than me" and i tell them "You already lost then. because i don't care if he's a big a$$ Samoan, and NOBODY is just going to whip my a$$. there's a difference behind a sports mentality fighting to win, but a street fighter's mind set its do or die. there's no chance for fuk ups. one slip up could mean your head being slammed repeatedly into the cement. kicked in the head or face. so a street fighter HAS to have that "YOU"RE NOT KICKING MY A$$ MUDDA CHUKKA" frame of mind.

My goodness Hsk... you're like most spot on. OK - you seem to understand the new rules. The only difference in what I'd advocate is I'd tell people not to be macho to the point where they fight when they can flee. Always flee first.

I'd love to put some great video that I have on youtube, but I can't. It's a hostage situation where you see a bunch of people being held face down behind a plate glass window. The window shatters because the cops fired tear gas into the building. One guy gets up and runs out the broken window. About 5 seconds later you see the gunman running down the line shooting each of the prone hostages. ONLY ONE TRIED TO FLEE AND HE LIVED. The rest all died. There's a lesson there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can't fight in the ring, under controlled conditions, with as close to a level playing field as possible, what hope do you have on "the street" ??

[hskwarrior]

@ mightyB: oh yes that happened in sacramento. bunch of asians guys. and yes, the one person that did run for his life was the only one uninjured. i don't see the point in just LETTING someone take your life. i really can't.


If you can't fight in the ring, under controlled conditions, with as close to a level playing field as possible, what hope do you have on "the street" ??

@sanjuro: The ring isn't the TRUE testing ground. before ring fighting there was street fighting. but if you never fought before except for the ring then i feel you're missing an element. i can tell you all day, but its something you have to experience for yourself. i've never fought in the ring before and i survive on the streets pretty ok.

[MightyB]

If you can't fight in the ring, under controlled conditions, with as close to a level playing field as possible, what hope do you have on "the street" ??

There are plenty of examples of untrained people putting up fights and successfully defending themselves. When interviewing women that successfully fought back against armed rapists... all of them displayed the same characteristic. That was a survivor's mentality and that's the basis of Strong's book. Those women feared what the rapist was going to do more than the weapon. Sure they were cut, sure they were hurt, but they were not raped, they were not kidnapped, and they were not murdered. They understood the consequences of compliance and not putting up a fight. Nasty things like gang rape and torture... genital mutilation... being butchered. Ah yes - criminals are such good people.

[Lucas]

I remember this interview with a hardcore gang member about his charge and why he was in prison for murder. it was about 10 years ago but basically he said that he knew **** was going down with this guy and he had to represent, he knew the guy was trained in 'that karate ****' so guess what? He decided to shoot him dead instead. Why bother getting your ass kicked by a fighter. He was from the streets and grew up in the hood you have to expect someone who grew up in a dog eat dog world to just kill you the easiest way possible. There are many 'different' types of 'streets' out there.

I guess it depends on your life experiences and how you came up. when i think street i think guns, knives and groups. drugs, booze, and lots of hate. ever seen someone hopped up on some serious powder beat the crap out of someone? I can tell you right now that someone that high is not a 'normal' person. people on hardcore drugs step outside the 'limitations' of regular sane and sober people. not an excuse for anything but a reality. not saying that makes someone some super fighter, it doesnt. but what it does do is alter their reality. thats powerful. if you have been there or know what im talking about then you understand.

couple that alteration with a violent person, with a history of violence and the means to carry out violence. its a strong combination.

ever see someone with high school wrestling and a few years of boxing training go down the hole and get strung out on drugs and mixed up in the street gang life? his hands can be scary. just sayin. :D

[hskwarrior]

I remember this interview with a hardcore gang member about his charge and why he was in prison for murder. it was about 10 years ago but basically he said that he knew **** was going down with this guy and he had to represent, he knew the guy was trained in 'that karate ****' so guess what? He decided to shoot him dead instead. Why bother getting your ass kicked by a fighter. He was from the streets and grew up in the hood you have to expect someone who grew up in a dog eat dog world to just kill you the easiest way possible. There are many 'different' types of 'streets' out there.

if you get into a street confrontation there is a big chance the guy doesn't have a gun. and if both of your hands are raised you kinda know ok this guy is going to fight me and not shoot me. People get shot for being in the wrong area, cause someone wants your shoes, jacket, jewelry, or sh1t even shoot you for an initiation into a gang. The best way to to deal with it is just not be there. but sometimes you have no choice but to be in a certain area. mainly because you live there.]


I guess it depends on your life experiences and how you came up. when i think street i think guns, knives and groups. drugs, booze, and lots of hate.

and thats EXACTLY what i grew up in.


ever seen someone hopped up on some serious powder beat the crap out of someone? I can tell you right now that someone that high is not a 'normal' person.

Yeah i've witnessed some things that would shock alot of people. I'm cold to VIOLENCE and the one thing that i find very sad is hearing a man literally begging for his life out of pure fear. out of everything i've ever done or seen, that is one thing that stuck with me more than anything else. perhaps it was because the people where i live take violence and life hand in hand. they know it can happen to them so their level of FEAR is lower than lets say some people from the suburbs.

I've come to see some of my life long friends soooooo strung out on dope that it made me cry literally. that could have been me. I'm glad i moved out of that environment but i'm still proud of where i came from because it taught me how to survive.

[MightyB]

if you get into a street confrontation there is a big chance the guy doesn't have a gun. and if both of your hands are raised you kinda know ok this guy is going to fight me and not shoot me. People get shot for being in the wrong area, cause someone wants your shoes, jacket, jewelry, or sh1t even shoot you for an initiation into a gang. The best way to to deal with it is just not be there. but sometimes you have no choice but to be in a certain area. mainly because you live there.]



and thats EXACTLY what i grew up in.

Frank - again you're spot on, and that type of activity is spreading. Learning to avoid the really dangerous areas is vital. Understanding the nature of the new criminal is also vital. Looks like you got both.

I've attached a pic of the guy I keep yammering about. He lives in the San Diego. You guys have a lot in common in regards to understanding the new criminal. Basically be smart and a survive or die kind've attitude for self defense.

[hskwarrior]

brother i used to be a crip and one of my tattoo's say "Crip or Cry, DO or DIE. Even if you leave the streets and move into a better neighborhood guess what you get to become (so to speak)? A "HOOD CONSULTANT" to those who don't live in the hood. you get to bring all that knowledge of how to survive and apply it in your new life.

but there is a saying "you can take a person out of the hood, but you can never take the HOOD out of the person."

you know what bugs me the MOST about the new types of thugs who sag their pants? THEY do it as a STYLE......SAGGING came from the fact that people in the hood wore hand-me-downs and often times couldn't afford to buy a belt so these kids pants would sag....not for STYLE but because he just doesn't have a belt.

I'm taking this picture down in a little while but here is a pic of my brother recently but you can see the scar he has from being stabbed. it starts in the middle of his chest.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs111.snc3/15867_186748542731_697132731_2927054_4746608_n.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

@sanjuro: The ring isn't the TRUE testing ground. before ring fighting there was street fighting. but if you never fought before except for the ring then i feel you're missing an element. i can tell you all day, but its something you have to experience for yourself. i've never fought in the ring before and i survive on the streets pretty ok.


There are plenty of examples of untrained people putting up fights and successfully defending themselves. When interviewing women that successfully fought back against armed rapists... all of them displayed the same characteristic. That was a survivor's mentality and that's the basis of Strong's book. Those women feared what the rapist was going to do more than the weapon. Sure they were cut, sure they were hurt, but they were not raped, they were not kidnapped, and they were not murdered. They understood the consequences of compliance and not putting up a fight. Nasty things like gang rape and torture... genital mutilation... being butchered. Ah yes - criminals are such good people.

Guys, you are making my point you know...

[hskwarrior]

i'm sorry, are you sayng if you can't fight in the ring then you wouldn't be able to fight in the street?

[MightyB]

Guys, you are making my point you know...

Only if your point is that what most people consider street fighting is a myth and that it's really bully defense. Real Street fighting is violent and nasty and full of hardened criminals. That the best MA training can do is get you in shape and improve your balance, but the fight is really in your mind... because you have to fight your fear, you have to fight your instincts if they tell you to comply... That it doesn't take a trained fighter to survive - that it really takes a survivor to survive - then yes, we'll be with you.

If your point is that somehow a kickboxing and BJJ class is going to prepare you for a real street battle with criminals... then we're not even on the same page.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am saying that, if you don't do well in a controlled environment, you have less of chance in an uncontrolled one.
Sure we can have flukes and such, but what that means is that it is far harder to defend yourself VS a trained fighter in a controlled environment then some guy in a non-controlled, as your examples show.
The woman that defended herself VS a rapist, what chance do you think she would have had if he was a trained fighter?

In a sport environment you are exposed and your body learns to adapt to the stimuli of "fight or flight", and even if you are o n the street and are "surprised" by an attack, if your trained responses tell you to kick ass, you will ( to the bets of your ability) because the stimuli of "physical danger" is something you are used to.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If your point is that somehow a kickboxing and BJJ class is going to prepare you for a real street battle with criminals... then we're not even on the same page.

No, nothing will prepare you for that other than doing that.
What it will prepare you for is what to do when the **** hits the fan.

[hskwarrior]

The woman that defended herself VS a rapist, what chance do you think she would have had if he was a trained fighter?
]

how would she do against a trained fighting rapist? LOL


No, nothing will prepare you for that other than doing that.

you have to actually FIGHT to know how to FIGHT. Street or the ring both "VENUES" deal with fighting. Street Level fighter and Trained fighters. If you're a street fighter it means you're not afraid to mix it up and BANG. If you are martial artist you're supposed to be trained better than the street fighter. A sports fighter is the higher goal in fighting because of what it takes to become one. But NOT everyone wants to become a SPORTS fighter and ARE satisfied with being able to take out your average street punk.

[sanjuro_ronin]

]

how would she do against a trained fighting rapist? LOL

Thank goodness sport fighters aren't into that.
;)

[goju]

combat athletes are the most prepared individuals for a fight no matter where it occurs therfore if you want to be able to handle yourself when the proverbial **** hits the fan your training should mimic what these fighters do.

[hskwarrior]

Keyword: combat athletes.

Reality: NOT EVERYONE wants to train to become a combat athlete. they want to defend themselves. family. be able to save face in front of their lady. some people just don't have it in them to be the ATHLETE but DO have it in them to deal with a street situation.

[goju]

Keyword: combat athletes.

Reality: NOT EVERYONE wants to train to become a combat athlete. they want to defend themselves. family. be able to save face in front of their lady. some people just don't have it in them to be the ATHLETE but DO have it in them to deal with a street situation.


but you should develop the athletic prowess to reinforce things and be well prepared. As has been pointed out things can go wrong in a street situation so its a good idea to have more in you than mere will power and determination.

[Lucas]

here is my question for this thread.

what degree are you guys talking about.

are you all talking top game street figher vs top game sport fighter?

or do you mean, weak street fighter vs fedor?

you have variances. sport fighters will have a higher amount of fight ready people out of the total, but that doesnt mean all street fighter will be weak and non atheletic.

example:
one of the local mexican gangs where i grew up had 1 white guy in the gang, his gang name was wedo (it means white boy) he was their fighter. 6+ 200+ and crazy mean. meaning he was the best guy they had on the 'payroll' at that time. this is a matter of survival of the fittest. you didnt get his position unless you were an animal. no joke. you had to be prooven fighter, and have beaten the **** out of prooven fighters from other gangs. I saw him fight more than once. Hell I saw him beat up 3 guys at one time. Were they trained fighters? no, but there were 3 of them and it wasnt like the movies where they attacked one at a time. he litterally beat the crap out of 1 guy while one was on his back. he was always high and the only time you saw wedo was when he was going to fight. so if you saw wedo you stuck around. cuz you knew there was going to be a good fight.

there are weak street fighters, then there are the 'pro' equivelant. the guys who were there ONLY for fighting. they get paid, either in cash, status, *****es, drugs, or a combination. and they got lots of experience, against fighters AND chumps. you dont meet these guys often, and they dont 'make a name' cuz what they do is illegal. they are in and have been in deep and probably will never get out of that life and likely will die before they go grey, or get locked up.

wedo is in prison for life. who knows if he survived there or not.

[hskwarrior]

but you should develop the athletic prowess to reinforce things and be well prepared.

I AGREE. We train our students to be the best they can be. i do agree that MMA level training is better than the current level of combat training taking place today. but i agree with you.

[hskwarrior]

here is my question for this thread.

what degree are you guys talking about.

are you all talking top game street figher vs top game sport fighter?

or do you mean, weak street fighter vs fedor?

it's really about what kind of fighting that takes place in the streets and all that comes with it as opposed to sports fighting and all that comes with that. i will say again, both are fighters, one just trains at a higher level than the other.

[goju]

yeah but the things is this guys beating up god knows who

smaller guys , bigger guys, whatever its a whole different story when you get in there with a professional fighter hes not gonna move like these guys hes fighting, hes gonna be in leaps and bounds better condition than any street fighter out there and hes not gonna be high lol



heres another street fighting video where techique won out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2DirtL7JBg

[hskwarrior]

i agree with you again. but a student can train LIKE a sports fighter without having to become one yes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

here is my question for this thread.

what degree are you guys talking about.

are you all talking top game street figher vs top game sport fighter?

or do you mean, weak street fighter vs fedor?

you have variances. sport fighters will have a higher amount of fight ready people out of the total, but that doesnt mean all street fighter will be weak and non atheletic.

example:
one of the local mexican gangs where i grew up had 1 white guy in the gang, his gang name was wedo (it means white boy) he was their fighter. 6+ 200+ and crazy mean. meaning he was the best guy they had on the 'payroll' at that time. this is a matter of survival of the fittest. you didnt get his position unless you were an animal. no joke. you had to be prooven fighter, and have beaten the **** out of prooven fighters from other gangs. I saw him fight more than once. Hell I saw him beat up 3 guys at one time. Were they trained fighters? no, but there were 3 of them and it wasnt like the movies where they attacked one at a time. he litterally beat the crap out of 1 guy while one was on his back. he was always high and the only time you saw wedo was when he was going to fight. so if you saw wedo you stuck around. cuz you knew there was going to be a good fight.

there are weak street fighters, then there are the 'pro' equivelant. the guys who were there ONLY for fighting. they get paid, either in cash, status, *****es, drugs, or a combination. and they got lots of experience, against fighters AND chumps. you dont meet these guys often, and they dont 'make a name' cuz what they do is illegal. they are in and have been in deep and probably will never get out of that life and likely will die before they go grey, or get locked up.

wedo is in prison for life. who knows if he survived there or not.

I knew a guy like that once, he was an enforcer for the HA's, saw him take out a couple of SC's guys in a strip club the HA's owned that the SC's though was a good idea to go into.
A coke head too, a tad bigger then your guy and always armed with a knife and I mean always.
One day he is all nervous and freaking out and I ask a buddy of mine why and he says:
He got reamed by Joe last week and Joe said that if he didn't fix the problem Joe would **** him 6 ways to Sunday, then Joe put his head through the bar counter.

In case you were wondering, Joe is an old , middle age guy that was the head bouncer at the club, he was a 6th in Shotokan, 5-5 and 185lbs.

Weird eh?

[goju]

i agree with you again. but a student can train LIKE a sports fighter without having to become one yes?

oh yes this is completely true

[Lucas]

haha i love stories like that.

i think its pretty much a given that someone trained and tested to do something will fair better than people who dont go through that same process. You can apply that to any skill in the world.

just dont automatically assume the guy your going to throw down with isnt trained. i'd rather assume he is, and that hes trained better than you, smarter than you, longer than you, and harder than you.

here is a strange question. how many street fights in brazil do you think one or both of the guys is trained skill wise to some degree in bjj? im betting more than a few. how would a regular brazillian street fighter with a decent understanding of bjj do against a trained pro sport boxer?

it would be a strange match up, but if he doestn get ko quickly, i bet he breaks the boxer.

[hskwarrior]

just dont automatically assume the guy your going to throw down with isnt trained.

that brother is the one thing a street fighter knows from the get go. You never know what someone knows so you never underestimate anyone. you just fight your heart out and if in the end he was easy to defeat than know that he wasn't a trained fighter. then you gonna come across a guy who is loopy in the head who all he knows is fighting and will overwhelm you with his aggression.

A funny story that happend to my older bro. he was with his family driving on the freeway when this jerk came very close to running my brother and his family off the road and he kept going. my brother gets ****ed and follows the guy. they get out of the car and my bro says this guy was huge. all the while my bro's wife is making a call to the police when the dude grabs my brother around the neck trying to choke him. my bro steps back and hits the guy with everything he had and knocked him out cold.

When the police were asking my sister in law for a description of the guy she turned to look and only saw my brother standing there. she then asked my brother "where'd that guy go?" and my older brother points at the ground where the guy is knocked out cold. needless to say the cops got there and took the guy away. LOL....the imagery of her looking around for that guy not knowing he was on the floor then seeing him there without knowing what happened is kinda funny to me.

[Lucas]

aahhh the good ol u, s of a. home of road rage!

:D

[Yum Cha]

I less well trained fighter can beat a better fighter if they are smart, and know how to take advantage of the situation. You see it in sport fighting too.

Maybe that makes him the better fighter afterall...

[Jimbo]

I remember a riot that broke out in 1981 at the first 'full-contact karate' event at the S.D. Sports Arena. There were some fighters who were very well-known at the time in the worlds of kickboxing and nationally-rated point karate, either involved in the program or just in attendance, many down from L.A. I don't want to mention any names, but many were familiar names/faces in the M.A. mags back then. I will only say that Benny Urquidez was definitely NOT among the names in attendance.

We were in the upper deck watching, but down at floor level near the ring, the seating areas were filled with three big groups: A group of young Mexican guys towards the front of one section, and a group of young black men directly behind them. Another section was full of middle-aged outlaw bikers and their 'old ladies' (I don't know if they were H.A. or not). All three of these groups were displaying thug behavior the whole time.

In one of the matches, a Mexican fighter won a decision against a black fighter and the floor-level black group started protesting. To make a long story short, the black group faced off against the Mexican group. It started with two guys, and the black guy started wailing on the other guy. Then all hell broke loose.

As the two groups went berserk, suddenly the bikers decided to join into the fray. Then everyone at floor level got involved. The blacks and Mexicans temporarily stopped fighting each other and seemed to team up against the bikers, usually two's or three's against each biker. This went on for some time, but eventually the bikers ended up mostly down on the floor. Once they were eliminated, the black guys got into a big line straight across, then all of them assumed the Kenpo stance, essentially calling the Mexican guys out. We left at this point, expecting the guns to start coming out at any time.

The whole time the fighting was going on, the announcer kept calling out in a Texas accent on the loudspeaker, "Ever'body, please! Please calm down! If y'all want to settle things, settle 'em in the ring! Sign up and we can have it out in a legitimate one-on-one match!" Of course, nobody was paying attention. Then he was yelling out, "Security! Security!" Unfortunately, security was only a group of very old-looking men who were not prepared for a riot. Then we heard him say, "Ladies and gentlemen, this event is now over. Please exit the building."

Also during the melee, a few guys who were known fighters apparently got clobbered. One ended up curled up under a table as bikers were kicking him and hitting him with steel folding chairs. At least one well-known fighter apparently did fine in the melee, as he was one of them who joined the "Kenpo array" as the fight was winding down.

I've been at other events where floor-level chaos ensued (including Ed Parker's Internationals in Long Beach one year), but this particular event stuck in my mind, and I remember it clearly even after 29 years.

[Yum Cha]

I remember a riot that broke out in 1981 at the first 'full-contact karate' event at the S.D. Sports Arena. There were some fighters who were very well-known at the time in the worlds of kickboxing and nationally-rated point karate, either involved in the program or just in attendance, many down from L.A. I don't want to mention any names, but many were familiar names/faces in the M.A. mags back then. I will only say that Benny Urquidez was definitely NOT among the names in attendance.

We were in the upper deck watching, but down at floor level near the ring, the seating areas were filled with three big groups: A group of young Mexican guys towards the front of one section, and a group of young black men directly behind them. Another section was full of middle-aged outlaw bikers and their 'old ladies' (I don't know if they were H.A. or not). All three of these groups were displaying thug behavior the whole time.

In one of the matches, a Mexican fighter won a decision against a black fighter and the floor-level black group started protesting. To make a long story short, the black group faced off against the Mexican group. It started with two guys, and the black guy started wailing on the other guy. Then all hell broke loose.

As the two groups went berserk, suddenly the bikers decided to join into the fray. Then everyone at floor level got involved. The blacks and Mexicans temporarily stopped fighting each other and seemed to team up against the bikers, usually two's or three's against each biker. This went on for some time, but eventually the bikers ended up mostly down on the floor. Once they were eliminated, the black guys got into a big line straight across, then all of them assumed the Kenpo stance, essentially calling the Mexican guys out. We left at this point, expecting the guns to start coming out at any time.

The whole time the fighting was going on, the announcer kept calling out in a Texas accent on the loudspeaker, "Ever'body, please! Please calm down! If y'all want to settle things, settle 'em in the ring! Sign up and we can have it out in a legitimate one-on-one match!" Of course, nobody was paying attention. Then he was yelling out, "Security! Security!" Unfortunately, security was only a group of very old-looking men who were not prepared for a riot. Then we heard him say, "Ladies and gentlemen, this event is now over. Please exit the building."

Also during the melee, a few guys who were known fighters apparently got clobbered. One ended up curled up under a table as bikers were kicking him and hitting him with steel folding chairs. At least one well-known fighter apparently did fine in the melee, as he was one of them who joined the "Kenpo array" as the fight was winding down.

I've been at other events where floor-level chaos ensued (including Ed Parker's Internationals in Long Beach one year), but this particular event stuck in my mind, and I remember it clearly even after 29 years.

DAHAM! Good Value!

[Kansuke]

The ring isn't the TRUE testing ground. before ring fighting there was street fighting. but if you never fought before except for the ring then i feel you're missing an element. i can tell you all day, but its something you have to experience for yourself. i've never fought in the ring before and i survive on the streets pretty ok.



How many people who fight in the ring have never been in a fight outside of it? Not many.

How many people who don't fight in the ring have never been in a fight outside of it? Many.

[Frost]

We all have stories of people winning and losing street fights: one I remember from my kung fu days was when three of my organisations best full contact fighters were up in Scotland for a competition, in one of the motorway rest areas they were assaulted by 20 bikers (the fighters were all black and this was in the early 80’s when there was a lot of racist attacks) when the police turned up they had to call extra ambulances because the three fighters had wrecked the bikers so badly, in fact the first was so one sided that the cops didn’t even bother charging the bikers with assault (this story can be taken with a pinch of salt like all other stories, however it made both the regional news on TV and a national current affairs show, I have seen both videos)

What does this prove about sports fighting and street fighting? Feck all if we are honest, is sports fighting the same as a street fight? No and no sane person would argue otherwise: But what is the best way to prepare for a street fight? What is the closest approximation to the pain, violence and shock or realising this other guy is really trying to hurt you? Short of actually getting in regular street fights it’s got to be sports fighting…well either that or actually have animal days like Geoff Thompson used to but that’s probably too much for most people :)
Another point most people forget is that most sports guys become full contact fighters because they like to fight, its in their blood and a trained conditioned guy who likes to fight is a scary thing

[hskwarrior]

But what is the best way to prepare for a street fight? What is the closest approximation to the pain, violence and shock or realising this other guy is really trying to hurt you? Short of actually getting in regular street fights it’s got to be sports fighting

Good point. The only way to prepare for a street fight is experience and with all that comes with it. See, in a street fight it just doesn't end there. from that point forward you will ALWAYS be on guard because of the fear of retaliation. Just a verbal confrontation can lead to retaliation.

But if a street fighter wanted to "Continue fighting" then sport fighting is the BEST bet. it's the safest bet. AND there's chances to make some money too. In addition to this they also get a great chance to get in TIP TOP shape. street fighters only care about dealing with a street situation in a fast and timely manner.

[MightyB]

Good point. The only way to prepare for a street fight is experience and with all that comes with it. See, in a street fight it just doesn't end there. from that point forward you will ALWAYS be on guard because of the fear of retaliation. Just a verbal confrontation can lead to retaliation.

But if a street fighter wanted to "Continue fighting" then sport fighting is the BEST bet. it's the safest bet. AND there's chances to make some money too. In addition to this they also get a great chance to get in TIP TOP shape. street fighters only care about dealing with a street situation in a fast and timely manner.

Good Points.

IMO the best way to prepare is through understanding real violence. We want to believe something that is false. We want to think that criminals are reasonable, we want to believe that violence is only on TV, and we want to believe a myth about what street fighting is and isn't. Hopefully we can look at people like HSK aka Frank and learn through his experience.

Retaliation... psychos who don't give a crap if they curb your teeth, or shoot you... torture, rape... extreme acts of violence for the sake of performing acts of violence...

However unlikely, real self defense training needs to be aware of those and have real, not fantasy scenarios for dealing with those situation. Awareness, a survivor's attitude, escape plans, pepper spray in your hand, CCW / guns... this stuff needs to be understood and taught. Not the fantasy what ifs ... the "if the guy has a knife and does this then" crap. Guess what? You won't know if he has a knife until it's handle deep in your kidney.

I will admit that my kung fu went to a whole new level through sports training when I added Judo and BJJ. It wasn't so much the Judo and BJJ as their approaches to practice. It requires two people, simple movements that lead to complex techniques, resistance, and live rolling. These practices work in conditioning you for the physical exertion and adrenaline dump that fighting requires.

[Lucas]

wasnt there some mma guy who went crazy and ripped his friends heart out like a year or so ago? i know it was posted around here somewhere....hes 'teh deadly' and he was a sport guy gone nuts. i think he was on drugs. psycho

[kungfoozer]

I am joining the conversation late and have only read a few of the posts.

I think people who make comparisons of sparring "being the closest thing to street fighting" is a bit much. I also think that those who do not feel sparring will help in a street fight are a bit much.

If you are going to freeze up during a street altercation than nothing will stop that. Sparring will develop your ability to use real skills under real pressure. This would definitely help in a street fight.

[hskwarrior]

I think people who make comparisons of sparring "being the closest thing to street fighting" is a bit much. I also think that those who do not feel sparring will help in a street fight are a bit much.

The street fighter's brand of sparring is called slap boxing. even a street fighter knows he can get rusty. AND, sparring to improve your fighting skills is a given in any setting. if you aren't sparring in some fashion and i don't mean verbal, your skill set is just a guessedimation.

the only big problem i'm seeing is the EGO bruising both Sports and street fighters are getting. both FIGHT but just on totally different levels.

[wenshu]

if you aren't sparring in some fashion and i don't mean verbal, your skill set is just a guessedimation.

the only big problem i'm seeing is the EGO bruising both Sports and street fighters are getting. both FIGHT but just on totally different levels.

I think something that might be overlooked in this discussion is that oftentimes "street" is just a euphemistic excuse western MA schools use to justify their dismissal of live sparring.

[hskwarrior]

I think something that might be overlooked in this discussion is that oftentimes "street" is just a euphemistic excuse western MA schools use to justify their dismissal of live sparring.

I don't really believe its about LIVE SPARRING or not. I stand on the fact that if you don't spar at least on a light weight level you will never know if what you were taught works for you. IMHO there are different types of sparring scenario's.

*** DISCLAIMER : Just because you spar, it doesn't make you a fighter. I've known people who could spar in class, but out in the streets would get murdered.

Good Neighborhood Kid: Isn't afraid to put the gloves on and spar. But because he's lived a really plush life he doesn't understand the "Fire" that it takes to be a fighter. To this kind of person "Sparring" is just a safe and fun little way to re-enact what they perceive as martial combat without any real knowledge of REAL COMBAT.

It is these guys who worry about hurting someone or being hurt so they don't really try that hard. But it is these guys who always get their arses handed to them then turn around and hate on TMA cause for THEM it didn't work.

- Classical Style wannabe's: I won't point out anyone specifically, but it's the classical type people, or people who rely on the "STYLE" working for them as opposed to the hard earned skills of other fighters. I was in Texas at the Tai Chi Legacy watching the San Shou matches along with some other sifu's when this one guy (Hung Gar Style) all geared up in his san shou stuff tried to "BECOME HUNG GAR" walking about, posing, circling, and such but he was pretty much beat to a pulp. all of the gung sifu were like "DOHHHH!" :eek:

they MAY have the heart, but rely far too much on the system. But who knows, if that guy keeps it up that way he may win a match or two and make people see things differently.

Natural Martial Artist (fighter): This is the type of person who already has some kind of fighting experience. He knows that it's the hard work and not the style that is going to help him win be it a street confrontation or a Sports Fighting match. He recognizes the weaknesses of his chosen TMA and works to fill in the gaps. For some people that means cross training. For others, it means relying on whats in your system by dissecting it to discover new ways to improve what you've been taught.

It's at THIS point that a street fighter realizes "hey, i'm trained now. I can't just get into fights like i used to." But he is not afraid to take it to the streets if need be. Still, he may not be interested in training for sports fighting and is just satisfied with his skills set up to that point. He's has applied all of his street knowledge and combined it with a more "TRAINED" focus.

Sports fighting: It's like FULL CIRCLE for a street fighter (if he's not too old by then). It's fighting...hardcore at times, but it's fighting regardless if protection is used. in the realm of "TRAINED FIGHTING" SPORTS FIGHTERS are the what i might say ELITE in the martial world. They work their skills and prove it regularly, but more importantly they are the ATHLETE's of MARTIAL ARTS/Street Fighting.

[kungfoozer]

Sport fighters often say that if you can't do it in the ring you can't do it for real. I think this is sort of true but it's not the complete picture. In the ring someone will always win whether it's by knockout, submission, or points. So if you lose in the ring it means, on one level, that you weren't the best man that day.

The statement should be amended from, "If you can't do it in the ring you can't do it for real", to:

If you can survive in the ring(not talking about winning or losing) and keep coming back for more than you have a better shot in the street.

[kungfoozer]

I will also add this.

I have a friend who likes to fight and has been in many street fights. The one common denominator in all of his stories is that he is always the first person to initiate attacks, starts off with intense anger and yelling before attacking, and then goes into a blitzkrieg which takes the other person by surprise. This would not work in the ring because his opponent would be ready for him. In fact I saw him sparring with my other friend and he didn't have near the success that he's had in his other assaults...I mean fights.

[hskwarrior]

If you can survive in the ring(not talking about winning or losing) and keep coming back for more than you have a better shot in the street.

I like that :)

But some people need to understand that being a street fighter is something done out of "Necessity for survival" while sports fighting is something you elect to do. But if you compare TMA vs Sports Fighting as to whom might make you a better realistic fighter in a faster manner would be SPORTS Fighting.

The only thing about a sports fighter in the streets he's not aware or trained to deal with being jumped because he stylized in just fighting one guy in a safe environment.

when i say street fighting is a "Necessity for Survival" i mean take my upbringing for example. I grew up in a ghetto, barrio, hood, whatever you want to call it. Where i grew up caucasians were few and far between. in saying that, it means where i grew up i was the target for most kids because i was "white". I got into so many fights as a kid because people always wanted to pick on the white kid. But my older bro trained me from early early on how to fight. So, for myself, it was either fight back and gain respect or allow the bullies to pick on you every day cause they know you won't do nothing about it.

UFC and MMA wasn't around before my accident, but if i never had my accident which left my paralyzed for a long time i probably would have went the ufc and mma route. unfortunately my primary focus was on regaining the use of my legs with took more than two decades to happen. So i guess you can say for me, fighting has no choice but to be for survival. But that's not to say that i can't push my students to train for sports fighting as well.

[hskwarrior]

starts off with intense anger and yelling before attacking, and then goes into a blitzkrieg which takes the other person by surprise.

NICE. It works too. But, some of the smart fighters will let you get all loud and crazy because the more he focuses on "Intimidation" we will use that against you and launch our attack first. it's a timing thing. When you catch him at the peak of his intimidation tactic and hit him with an uppercut he's actually stunned for a brief moment cause he went from an aggressive mode to a defensive one. that's when you beat the crap out of em.

[wenshu]

I don't really believe its about LIVE SPARRING or not. I stand on the fact that if you don't spar at least on a light weight level you will never know if what you were taught works for you. IMHO there are different types of sparring scenario's.

*** DISCLAIMER : Just because you spar, it doesn't make you a fighter. I've known people who could spar in class, but out in the streets would get murdered.



Your characterizations are accurate, however incomplete.

I know a kid who has a reputation as a street brawler. Easily knocks out people twice his size on the street. Really just a glorified bully; difficult childhood, emotional problems etc.

Got all hyped up to become a fighter, joined a respectable gym, trained for a decent amount of time. Finally got on a amateur card and got his ass summarily whupped.

Never laced up a pair of gloves again. No heart whatsoever. No patience, discipline or ability to move forward after a set back.

Street fighters often make ineffective and just plain ****ty athletes. Kimbo Slice, if I recall correctly, didn't exactly live up to the hype from his street brawls.


The only thing about a sports fighter in the streets he's not aware or trained to deal with being jumped because he stylized in just fighting one guy in a safe environment.

Street fights are decisive and predicated on fear and surprise. Combat athletes are used to taking shots; most street brawlers run into problems if that first haymaker doesn't take their opponent/victim down.


Good Neighborhood Kid: Isn't afraid to put the gloves on and spar. But because he's lived a really plush life he doesn't understand the "Fire" that it takes to be a fighter.

Some of the most vicious, savage sociopaths are Ivy League legacies who went to Prep School with a silver spoon in their mouth.

No amount of martial training will prepare you to take a stand against this;
http://vimeo.com/16632389

[hskwarrior]

hey thanks for that...however i wasn't trying get as deep into it as you were....but thanks man. :):)

[hskwarrior]

Your characterizations are accurate, however incomplete.

I know a kid who has a reputation as a street brawler. Easily knocks out people twice his size on the street. Really just a glorified bully; difficult childhood, emotional problems etc.

Got all hyped up to become a fighter, joined a respectable gym, trained for a decent amount of time. Finally got on a amateur card and got his ass summarily whupped.

Never laced up a pair of gloves again. No heart whatsoever. No patience, discipline or ability to move forward after a set back.

Street fighters often make ineffective and just plain ****ty athletes. Kimbo Slice, if I recall correctly, didn't exactly live up to the hype from his street brawls.

Talk about heart. When i was in elementary school...and yes i was indeed fighting at that age...we were going to whip this kids arse..i forget why. but he was smart enough to say hey i know you'll jump me so i'll fight you guys one on one. and the mother effer did just that. we all lined up and fought this kid. he got whooped on but he wouldn't give up until he fought the last person in line. and guess what? he eventually became a good friend of ours. he earned his respect.

Bro you can't speak for every street fighter because we all know that there are good street fighters and there are those who are only good in their minds. But i don't agree with you that a street fighter makes a sh1tty pro fighter. i just can't agree with you on that. especially if the streetfighter empties his cup and just starts over from scratch learning to sport fight from the bottom up i am almost positive that he would do a good job if trained right.

here, here is a match 100 level below amateur fighting it was put together by our local radio station. the purpose was to recruit local street fighters from various cities and have them just go off. trained fighters or not...it was BATTLE OF THE BIG BOYS......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DeBhz2Br6I

[wenshu]

Bro you can't speak for every street fighter because we all know that there are good street fighters and there are those who are only good in their minds. But i don't agree with you that a street fighter makes a sh1tty pro fighter. i just can't agree with you on that. especially if the streetfighter empties his cup and just starts over from scratch learning to sport fight from the bottom up i am almost positive that he would do a good job if trained right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DeBhz2Br6I

I certainly wasn't trying to. I was just offering counterpoint. There is no blanket generalization that is going to be accurate. No one is making the claim that all street fighters make shi tty athletes.

[hskwarrior]

no problems there man. :)

[Yum Cha]

You are allowed to defend yourself if you feel physically threatened.

Somebody waving arms and yelling is physically threatening to a guy like me, what can I say. I'm just a big chicken I guess...

Its a big lesson to learn to hit first, but it works a charm. That part is certainly different between street and ring. The whole engagement scenario doesn't exist in the ring.

[goju]

hit them when they are removing their shirt or jacket works as well LOL

I dont know why alot of guys do that but i knew someone who had his face sliced open because as he was removing his shirt in a display of manliness and the guy he was arguing with pounced on him and punched him as his shirt was over his head ! lol guy has a big ring on the hand he was hitting him with too.:eek:

[wenshu]

I start doing a form.

While they are momentarily bemused and distracted, or turn to laugh with their friends, I hit em with a savage nut shot and run.

There has only been one time it didn't work. But that chick outweighed me by at least 30lbs and had an unfair reach advantage.

[mooyingmantis]

Street-fighting involves many environmental challenges:

1. You can't slam someone's head into a wall in the ring.
2. Falling on a mat is much softer than falling on the edge of a curb.
3. "Going to the ground" isn't very pleasant in a bathroom stall.

[Yum Cha]

Most of my attacks come from the "crying and begging for mercy" school of Manliness...:D

No, honestly, I think I have applied more martial arts skill and had a hell of a lot more outright fun and adrenaline in confronting and backing down people than in fighting.

Once you are comfortable, ready to throw down and obviously enjoying yourself, all those punks and honour fighters lose heart. That was back in the day, when that kind of stuff happened, high school, college, until I got out of "the scene".

Nothing like 'real' violence, fair enough, but certainly more common.

Its the change-up that gets them. The shock when they realise they have bitten off more than they can chew. You see it in their eyes, and you know you have them, you've turned the tables, and its time to have fun. Either that, or you're going for position!

And, this ain't 'the deadly' its just a mix of confidence and arrogance that has probably saved the bacon of more Martial Artists than you can count.

[Frost]

Street-fighting involves many environmental challenges:

1. You can't slam someone's head into a wall in the ring.
2. Falling on a mat is much softer than falling on the edge of a curb.
3. "Going to the ground" isn't very pleasant in a bathroom stall.

ON GOD NOT THIS AGAIN :rolleyes:
1)Its not a big deal to go from ragging someones head around in the clinch to banging it against a brick wall
2) Mat or curb doesnt matter its the fighter/grappler who normally lands on top thank you very much :)
3) Again going to the ground means me plantng you head first on the floor and then punching and kneeing the sh*t out of you...all of which is allowed in most MMA fight

[sanjuro_ronin]

3. "Going to the ground" isn't very pleasant in a bathroom stall.

Not for the guy on the bottom, that's for sure.

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNroQ1-dWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD6lautQN_4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0iP-VOUDyQ&feature=related

[Yum Cha]

Best bouncer....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWfetF1jCO4&feature=player_embedded#!

[gunbeatskroty]

Once in a while we get a toughguy who comes into our dojo acting all tough and tattooed out. Not saying that all tattooed guys act this way. But they quickly learn their place when some "near" blue belt girl taps them out in BJJ. And I hate to say this, but there are some girls who searches out noobie males to tap out in BJJ like they need to prove something, so it's a 2 way street. Of course these newbs gets tapped out by all the other male Whitebelts.

It gets worse when these toughguys spar standup in MT. We don't let them spar until at least 3 months of training on pads. I always go light and just touch-spar with them. They get all frustrated b/c I block, dodge, counter just about everything so they start throwing bombs trying to KO me....at which point I'd have to clock 'em with something nasty to get them to calm down. I'm no great fighter or anything, just a little above average at my gym...but toughguys off the streets in general, sucks.

Everything trained for sports fighting can easily be transferred onto the streets. If a fighter trains by hitting pads, bags, sparring partners (who hits back), etc. thousands of times per week, hundreds of hours per year, etc...they develop more power, agility, endurance, precision, instinct, etc....how much harder can it be to target testicles, eyeballs, throats, knees, etc. in a streetfight? That's like saying that Lennox Lewis would suck on the streets b/c he only trains to fight in sport boxing.

Now if you bring in knives or other weapons, then fck that. I used to religiously train once a week as part of a TJJ curriculum, to disarm a knife with empty hands. I had no problem slashing my instructor at least 10x with the rubber knife before he can grab me to disarm when we spar. On the streets, for real....it wouldn't even be funny how much blood would be all over the place and the guy w/o the knife will die....whether he's an awesome streetfighter or pro-fighter.

[goju]

Street-fighting involves many environmental challenges:

1. You can't slam someone's head into a wall in the ring.
.

Getting slammed on a ring doesnt feel fun

fighters have even got knocked out from it because their heads thudded off of it. dan severn even boinked his head against a metal part of the cage in Kotc from a fall.

[Lucas]

i dont really see much of a difference between the two honestly. basically the same thing imo. one is just way more physically intense because its partially an endurance and test as well. the other is more mentally challenging because there are serious factors involved that can result in very hard core results. ie: die, prison, blood feud, etc.

when it comes to crunch time and you are fighting, its just a fight.

even a real fight has rules. you think im going to kill a guy just cuz hes a giant douche and wants to bang my chick? not likely, ill probably take it easier on him than i would in a sport fight cuz i know the concequences are more than disqualification if i go to far.

in the ring i know he's trained, in the street i know there is a good chance he isnt.

its everything BESIDES the actual fight itself that is different. if you isolate the fight itself, its pretty the same thing. with a bit of room to allow for things that make it a non standard fight; weapons, friends, police, crazy *****es scratching your eyes out, stuff like that.

[MightyB]

Bully Defense - big guy, big head, wants to fight you just to be an @ss. Martial Arts training can deal with this guy... especially sport training.

Self Defense - Life or death struggle. Someone is going to die or be seriously hurt and most likely it's going to be you if you don't do anything. This is all about escape and survive. It's mostly a mindset. It's mostly about becoming educated with real life scenario based training. Although martial arts helps, it's not required. CCW with proper training is the biggest push for safety experts. Also awareness of the reality of how criminals operate is key to survival and to making the proper decisions.

[Syn7]

hhmmm personally, i train as much offence as defence... for me its not really about self defence... its about having the ability to bring the pain to all enemies alike should i decide i have the need or even the desire to do so...

im not worried about being attacked, robbed, whatever... i dont need to know how to fight in order to avoid, escape or defuse that sort of situation...


when i train, i do it with the metality of a soldier, not some guy that wants to feel safe in a dark alley...