TCMA / Kung Fu Approaches that I like:

[MightyB]

The obvious is my Sifu's approach which has always been open to cross training through exposure to other systems. He's always stated that he knows his stuff so he's not afraid that students will leave if they're exposed to other systems because they'll always come back for good kung fu... he's right. We always come back for the good kung fu.

Anyway...

I like Liang Shou Yu's universal approach meaning that style and geography aren't as important as techniques and philosophy (at least that's my take after reading a couple of his books). I like that a person could learn a Southern and a Northern system in the same school. He does seem to make a difference between the internal and external approaches in his writing but stresses the importance of doing both. I'd actually credit him with giving us westerners the notion that there's only Shuai, Na, Ti, Da in kung fu.

I like the New York San Da MMA approach to CMA, same with Tony Chen. I guess you can put Alexander Tao's no nonsense hard core kung fu in there too.

And lets not forget YouKnowWho and David Lin and the Combat Shuai Chiao organization. Excellent approaches.

I like all of these people for their focus on combat above style or name. I like the balanced, universal approach to martial arts study.

How about you guys... Thoughts?

[GeneChing]

Sadly, I'm not training under Sifu Chen anymore as he is devoting his energy to promoting live fights with Wulin Feng. In fact, there's one this Saturday in Las Vegas. Sifu Chen invited me to go, but unfortunately I have a prior family commitment. It's killing me as it's the second offer for a Vegas trip for one of these fights I've had to turn down. DS went to the first one last year (see our 2010 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=862): USA vs. China (or Blood and Rhinestones))


WuLinFeng Las Vegas Spectacular (http://www.harrahslasvegas.com/EventsDetail.do?detailName=wulinfeng-las-vegas-spectacular-detail&displayCode=&locationCode=LAS&eventTitle=WULINFENG+LAS+VEGAS+SPECTACULAR&searchDate=11-13-2010&categoryName=Special+Events&subcategoryName=ALL_SUBCATEGORIES&startDay=09&startMonthYear=11-2010&endDay=15&endMonthYear=11-2010)

Date: Saturday, November 13th, 2010
Time: 7:00 PM
Price: $75 - $150
Venue: Harrahs Ballroom
Reservations: 866-998-3427
Online Reservations: Purchase Tickets

"It has taken a whole year for WuLinFeng organization to select the Chinese fighters for this competition. Each and every one of them had to earn their place in the team," commented Dennis Warner, president of In Sync Productions.

Fighters, representing the United States on November 13th come from all parts of the country: Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, California, Arizona and Nevada. They are the experienced combatants and the up and coming star.

Much tension surrounded the match up for Kang En, a former WBC MuayThai International champion after American fighter, Kevin Ross refused to defend his WBC MuayThai International title against Kang En. Ben Yelle of Michigan will now take a chance against the Chinese icon. Yelle’s TKO earlier this year against Ray Cole became a memorable performance for the California fan crowd. Both fighters possess comprehensive elbow strike skills, and therefore will fight according to full rules.

Las Vegas favorite, Jack Thames will stand up to Guang Hong, the star of the Art of War championship and national champion of China. Thames is coming off of two wins by KO and TKO against Mike Ryan of Los Angeles, and Eric Utsch of Penn. respectively. Thames is also set for a re-match with Craig Buchanan for a WBC MuayThai National middleweight belt after a controversial fight result in April of this year.

Heath "Cowboy" Harris is stepping into the ring with the leader of the Chinese team Wang Hongxiang, who demonstrated a spectacular win over Joe Schilling last year in Las Vegas. Harris is best-known for his knockouts, 28 knockouts out of 29 wins.

Two full-rules and seven modified-rules Muay Thai fights will make up the fight card at Harrah’s Las Vegas. The modified bouts will operate in the three rounds/three minute structure and will not include elbows.

Complete fight card is as follows:

WBC Muaythai International Super Lightweight Bout 5rds.
Ben Yelle vs Kang En

WBC Muaythai Super Featherweight Bout 5rds.
Nat McIntyre vs Li Ning

WuLinFeng Cruiserweight Bout 3rds.
Andy Kapel vs Guo Qiang

WuLinFeng Middleweight Bout 3rds.
Jack Thames vs Hong Guang

WuLinFeng Light Heavyweight Bout 3rds.
Heath Harris vs Wang Hongxiang

WuLinFeng Super Welterweight Bout 3rds.
TBA vs Xu Yan

WuLinFeng Welterweight Bout 3rds
Alfred Khashakyan vs Lin Shuai

WuLinFeng Women’s Featherweight Bout 3rds.
Tiffany vanSoest vs Wang Cong

WuLinFeng Middleweight Bout 3rds.
Adrien Grotte vs Yi Long

[SPJ]

I like the TCMA

1. they share universal approach or some common grounds

3 levels of the body, da na shuai die etc

2. they also specialize in a certain skill

xing yi use the hand like a spear

ba gua use the hand like a sword

ba ji use the body to kao

tai chi specialize in following

----

[Yum Cha]

I like the phases of MA life, and the breadth of interesting activity.

Apprentice
The gauwky youngster phase where its all so foreign, and your body just doesn't want to do what your trying on.

The comfortable stage where you begin to get it, and get some results that you can count on.

The testing stage where you put your training to the test, [in whatever manner applies to your lifestyle and personal requirements :-)]

Journeyman
The exploration stage, where you look at the raw materials and become creative, based upon your experience. Putting the custom edge on your blade. Developing the subtle and unconventional skills and other 'intellectual' pursuits. You begin to teach maybe..

Coach
The Teaching stage and for want of better term, the health and sanity stage where you try to keep what you have with an ever more uncooperative body.

[YouKnowWho]

In TCMA, I like the separation between "sport" and "combat". When you

- complete your throw, your opponent can rotate and have safe break fall.
- throw your opponent 1/2 way, your oponent can only rotate 1/2 way and end with head down first.
- keep your body moving, you can take your opponent down.
- stop moving and sink down, you can hurt your opponent's leg joints.

This kind of separation can make the "sport" safe and "combat" effective.

[SteveLau]

Emphasis on foundation work, good combat skill and most important on ethics.



KC
Hong Kong

[wiz cool c]

Yee's Hung Gar the china town branch, is a great school. They teach forms and all the traditional stuff and work the application for modern attacks. They also have regular sparring classes and adapt their traditional techniques to modern sport competition as well.

[Syn7]

In TCMA, I like the separation between "sport" and "combat". When you

- complete your throw, your opponent can rotate and have safe break fall.
- throw your opponent 1/2 way, your oponent can only rotate 1/2 way and end with head down first.
- keep your body moving, you can take your opponent down.
- stop moving and sink down, you can hurt your opponent's leg joints.

This kind of separation can make the "sport" safe and "combat" effective.

Word......:)

[YouKnowWho]

Word......:)

The online discussion is all about "words". The internet discussion is not online teaching class. There is no economic reason to share video for free.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Basics and Applications.

The key to good TCMA or any martial arts is application of the techniques or methods taught. My class was generally ran like this:

1. Conditioning and stance training. (Warm up and rooting drills)

2. Basics (Punch, Kick, Throw, Block)

3. Circuit Training (Bag work, mitt work, kick shield, ect.)

4. Sparring (Moderate to heavy depending on the night, but equipment we wore was 16oz boxing gloves, shin guards, mouth piece, head gear if sparring heavy.)
or
Throws and takedowns (Often this includes ground submission work, positions,escapes, ect,) *also do San Shou sparring which incorporates both

5. Forms (usually the last 15-20 minutes of class practicing and keeping up on forms for the sake of testing and carrying on the tradition of the style.)

[SPJ]

The online discussion is all about "words". The internet discussion is not online teaching class. There is no economic reason to share video for free.

yes.

the contest/dispute of mouth water. kou shui zhi zheng 口水之争

:)

[YouKnowWho]

kou shui zhi zheng 口水之争

When someone doesn't believe what you have just said, you then put up a clip to prove it.

1st - Why do you need to prove it?
2nd - Are you trying to show off with your video?
3rd - Do you understand that some information just should not be shared in public?
4th - Did this forum just change policy such as "no videro -> never happened"?

[MightyB]

Hey- come on now, this is supposed to be a positive thread about what's right with TCMA and how some people approach training that's more than applicable in today's environment using pretty much nothing but traditional methodology.

That's why I threw you in Master Wang - anybody that's seen combat SC and knows who your master was knows that you are the real deal. Forget about all of the negative poseur posters. Who cares about them anyway.

[YouKnowWho]

I do have a video "how to hurt your opponent's knee" to prove my point "the difference between sport and combat". But I just don't think it's proper to show it online.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do have a video "how to hurt your opponent's knee" to prove my point "the difference between sport and combat". But I just don't think it's proper to show it online.

John, over the many years I have done MA I have probably learned more ways to damage a knee than I care to remember, do you think that it takes a "Master" to figure out how to hurt someone ?
If people want to hurt someone there are 100's of easier ways to do it then with MA skill that takes TONS of practice.

[YouKnowWho]

over the many years I have done MA I have probably learned more ways to damage a knee than I care to remember, do you think that it takes a "Master" to figure out how to hurt someone ?
If people want to hurt someone there are 100's of easier ways to do it then with MA skill that takes TONS of practice.
Some moves has counters but some moves has no counters. For those moves that has no counters, you will put your opponent into a helpless position. Those moves are even dangerous to train with partner.

When your leg is twisting wth your opponent's leg, The chance that you can hurt your opponent's knee will be equal to the chance that your opponent can hurt your knee. It depends on who has more "leg twisting" training. Now we are talking about "Kung" in TCMA that MMA guys just don't beliegve it ever exists.

[David Jamieson]

1st - Why do you need to prove it?
Some people are just like that, but mostly it's either an FU thing or vanity. Teaching is almost always never done with a public audience.


2nd - Are you trying to show off with your video? If it's made public, then absolutely it's an ego thing.


3rd - Do you understand that some information just should not be shared in public? This is the most important quote here.


4th - Did this forum just change policy such as "no video -> never happened"?



This forum ebbs and flows. We get a tide of idiots, then flotsam and jetsam, then a respite and decent conversation for a while. then the tide of idiots flows in again. Mostly people who are desperate to try to convince you that what you do is wrong and what they like is the only way.

disregard those people, they aren't here to help you in any way shape or form, they are here to stroke themselves and diminish you through taunting and juvenile behaviours.

:)

In which case, the administration has faithfully demonstrated they will take care of that problem when it gets too much. (yay! :) )

[YouKnowWho]

The nice thing about TCMA is the "Kung" training that MMA guys don't believe it even exists. It's very hard to convince someone that some moves only work with Kung. Without Kung, you may even put yourself in danger.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some moves has counters but some moves has no counters. For those moves that has no counters, you will put your opponent into a helpless position. Those moves are even dangerous to train with partner.

When your leg is twisting wth your opponent's leg, The chance that you can hurt your opponent's knee will be equal to the chance that your opponent can hurt your knee. It depends on who has more "leg twisting" training. Now we are talking about "Kung" in TCMA that MMA guys just don't beliegve it ever exists.

I learned some leg locks in BJJ and sambo that would make your hair fall off ( I know how much you love your hair;) )

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some people are just like that, but mostly it's either an FU thing or vanity. Teaching is almost always never done with a public audience.

If it's made public, then absolutely it's an ego thing.

This is the most important quote here.



This forum ebbs and flows. We get a tide of idiots, then flotsam and jetsam, then a respite and decent conversation for a while. then the tide of idiots flows in again. Mostly people who are desperate to try to convince you that what you do is wrong and what they like is the only way.

disregard those people, they aren't here to help you in any way shape or form, they are here to stroke themselves and diminish you through taunting and juvenile behaviours.

:)

In which case, the administration has faithfully demonstrated they will take care of that problem when it gets too much. (yay! :) )

Nah, if you can make a video to make your point clear or even prove your point, why not?
It has zero to do with ego and everything to do with sharing, the reason one assumes most people are here for anyways.

[SPJ]

The nice thing about TCMA is the "Kung" training that MMA guys don't believe it even exists. It's very hard to convince someone that some moves only work with Kung. Without Kung, you may even put yourself in danger.

human body is very fragile, true it is easy to hurt someone or ourself without any prior MA training.

however, we may train our body to perform specific job, such as farming, driving, --

we may also train specifically to fight with weapon or open hand

my point is that MA training is not a waste of time

especially learning how not to get hurt or how not to hurt ourself etc etc

:)

[SPJ]

When someone doesn't believe what you have just said, you then put up a clip to prove it.

1st - Why do you need to prove it?
2nd - Are you trying to show off with your video?
3rd - Do you understand that some information just should not be shared in public?
4th - Did this forum just change policy such as "no videro -> never happened"?

agreed that no need to post a video.

a contest of mouth remains a contest of mouth or saying

:D

[YouKnowWho]

I learned some leg locks in BJJ and sambo that would make your hair fall off ( I know how much you love your hair;) )

Some moves also exist in TCMA too. The outer leg twisting, modified version of front cut, ... that you can apply in stand up game.

[Yum Cha]

YouKnowWho - I think you may have misunderstood syn7.

I think he was applauding your statement, unless I am missing something. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Nah, if you can make a video to make your point clear or even prove your point, why not?
It has zero to do with ego and everything to do with sharing, the reason one assumes most people are here for anyways.

It may be fun to share information who will appreciate. It may not be fun to share information who thinks you are trying to show off. "Trying to prove your point" and "showing off" is hard to distinguish, Sometime the more information that you present, the deeper that you will get yourself into argument. You may just use your hot face to touch someone's cold ass.

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho - I think you may have misunderstood syn7.

I think he was applauding your statement, unless I am missing something. :)

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58969&page=2

[Yum Cha]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58969&page=2

Ai- Ya! m'duc

[David Jamieson]

Nah, if you can make a video to make your point clear or even prove your point, why not?
It has zero to do with ego and everything to do with sharing, the reason one assumes most people are here for anyways.

I have nothing against making videos to clarify something from one person to another or to a group involved in the same thought/conversation. When done in the spirit of argument, in my opinion it is egotistical. It is a declaration of "I think I am right and therefore you are wrong" Kind of teh pinnacle fo ego even though a video represents moments in time that were.

Consider this. Football teams beat other football teams by watching the other team and how they play. BY going through and identifying the other teams plays, it is a process to deconstruct them and make defenses that will defeat them. Or create attacks that they cannot answer.

The same is true of competitive fighting. If you aren't watching your opponents fights and regarding what he is doing and working towards defeating that, then in my opinion, you are doing it wrong.

If you have no idea of who your opponent is or do not know his style, which is the case in most martial artists reality, although that can change these days pretty quick.

There isn't anything inherintly evil about being egotistical though, it's annoying when someone takes it to the level of narcisism. And you're right, video is a really useful tool.



The nice thing about TCMA is the "Kung" training that MMA guys don't believe it even exists. It's very hard to convince someone that some moves only work with Kung. Without Kung, you may even put yourself in danger.

I think this will catch on.

Guys are already discovering Yoga. Even if they start as butt watchers, they get into the yoga and in the martial arts it's logical that should lead to learning about Kungs.

[lkfmdc]

The nice thing about TCMA is the "Kung" training that MMA guys don't believe it even exists. It's very hard to convince someone that some moves only work with Kung. Without Kung, you may even put yourself in danger.

I think, with all due respect, you haven't seen much MMA training

they may not call them "kung" but that doesn't mean they are different

[GeneChing]

...and that's no evidence that we are one and the same. None at all. :o

We're all staying civil here, right? Because I haven't banned anyone this week...

[lkfmdc]

...and that's no evidence that we are one and the same. None at all. :o

We're all staying civil here, right? Because I haven't banned anyone this week...

I was trying to stay civil, the "with all due respect"

I've certainly done "kung" and I've also trained with a few of top MMA camps (Chute Boxe and Team Quest for example). They may use different terms, but the ideas are the same, there are a lot of "kung" in training MMA fighters.

[Yum Cha]

...and that's no evidence that we are one and the same. None at all. :o

We're all staying civil here, right? Because I haven't banned anyone this week...

That statement about Kung has me thinking as well....

I'm as traditional as anybody. 25 years with one Sifu, another 4 with his "Uncle" before that. But, while I understand the Chinese perspective better than most, I still model everything against 'the principles' as I feel them, and what I know from a lifetime playing this game.

Its all about depth vs breadth to me. The Classical execution and discipline of TCMA and the high level skills (kungs) we develop are due to focus. I think the act of focus is in the end the ultimate payoff, but that's just me perhaps.

Lets talk about Uki juggling his iron balls. With the benefit of little training, his focus probably paid off nicely..

And I think its the hardest thing for broadly trained fighters to understand. Perhaps, to sacrifice the depth for a breadth of talent, could consequentially give you more of an ability to ad lib and flow?

Jazz vs Classical?

[GeneChing]

Jazz vs. Classical indeed. Whether you play jazz or classical, you still got to know your scales. Scales are your kungs.

[lkfmdc]

Any skill that works is because it was developed over a significant period of time

Does anyone think a punch that lands just lands because of luck?

Or a kick?

Heck, throws/takedowns are HARD to get, unless you've practiced them hard and long (or long and hard, but that always makes me giggle ;) sorry Gene)

You also can't call TCMA "specialized", for every hand movement there is a leg movement, for every "strike" there is a throw/trip

Real TCMA is ti , da, shuai, na, missing one you are missing 25%

[TenTigers]

lets be honest-any skill specific training is Kung.
ex: Throwing the heavybag is "throwing kung" -if you saw a SC guy doing it in China first, rather than a MMA guy, everyone would call it tcma training.

[Yum Cha]

lets be honest-any skill specific training is Kung.
ex: Throwing the heavybag is "throwing kung" -if you saw a SC guy doing it in China first, rather than a MMA guy, everyone would call it tcma training.

Gonna get all meta-physical (sic)?

Some skills are natural born? maybe? genetic?

Some skills are the sum of the parts, not something you can train individually?

My Tahitian buddy's brother was born with 2 crowns on his skull, the mark of a warrior.

He was by account, undefeatable his whole life. Royal family, warrior blood.


Personally, I think any art is in the doing, not in the achievement. It just gets more interesting and demanding, hopefully.

[YouKnowWho]

The TCMA Kung training is a funny thing. When you compete in the ring, your Kung has not been fully developed yet. When you have developed more Kung, you may be too old to compete. It's like when you were young, you have all the energy in the world. But since you don't have money, you have to work 8 to 5. When you have saved enough money that you no longer need to work, you are too old to enjoy your free time.

[GeneChing]

Did you read Only the Strong By Chris Friedman (2009 September/October (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=830))? That was throwing kungs for Shuai Jiao. Zhuo Quan Sheng didn't throw a heavy bag. Instead he threw a barbell with one plate, a stone lock, an ornamented flag pole and a 70 lb kwan dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-81cs.html). :cool:

[lkfmdc]

The TCMA Kung training is a funny thing. When you compete in the ring, your Kung has not been fully developed yet. When you have developed more Kung, you may be too old to compete. It's like when you were young, you have all the energy in the world. But since you don't have money, you have to work 8 to 5. When you have saved enough money that you no longer need to work, you are too old to enjoy your free time.

Can't say I agree with this on a couple of levels

There are tons of "martial arts bums" - I was one, many of my fighters are, ie they basicly train all day, they don't work, they don't have school. It took me an extra year in college because the first year I spent all with CTS, never at school

I don't think it is the "kung" that is more developed, perhaps it is the "yi". You get older and you have a clearer mind, better reasoning, you can focus more.

A little more experience also can make differences...

But it is "even playing field" thing in some respects because youth, strength and endurance DO mean a LOT in a fight

[lkfmdc]

Have you seen what the modern MMA athlete uses to get in shape?

http://www.combatsports.com/images/ELITEKIT2_l.jpg

http://www.combatsports.com/images/dmy1-140.jpg

just two examples

[PalmStriker]

Nah, if you can make a video to make your point clear or even prove your point, why not?
It has zero to do with ego and everything to do with sharing, the reason one assumes most people are here for anyways.

Yep, the really good training vids, regardless of fighting style are great for examining the World of MA. The Masters (undisputed) over the years have allowed the public to see and even understand, based on individual interest, their skills and philosophies at first in manuals and now DVD's and Youtube. Priceless!:)

[YouKnowWho]

What are you trying to say, YouKnowWho?

The window that we can truly test our combat skill in the ring is just too short.

[SPJ]

modern technology and equipments

modern sport medicine

really help athelets and MA training people

things that I like

the watch that measures your heart rate,

pedometer tracking your steps/stances

we would record how much exertion we did, download to a computer and chart it etc.

video to track our movement,

sensor to track balance

etc etc

oh, I do include them in our TCMA training aids.

:cool:

[SPJ]

What are you trying to say, YouKnowWho?

The window that we can truly test our combat skill in the ring is just too short.

working on a technique with a training partner

some limited sparring, such as use one specific technique only

some sparring time at end of each class

--

these are readily available every day

short of city, provenice, national and international events once a year or once every so many year

--

most of our learning and foundation are still built from daily practice and limited sparring

we may still have fun, even thou not attending local or national comp once a year

--

street fight is so random, and usually it is over very soon. it is a whole different story or beast.

--

[YouKnowWho]

After you have a full time job, wife and kids to feed, house mortgage to pay, you just can't afford to walk into the ring and take chance to be punched hard on your head everyday. You start to take easy on your sparring and your training will step away from combat reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

After you have a full time job, wife and kids to feed, house mortgage to pay, you just can't afford to walk into the ring and take chance to be punched hard on your head everyday. You start to take easy on your sparring and your training will step away from combat reality.

That is why you do it when you can, young perferably since we heal faster, LOL !
And you KEEP that knowledge of what works and why and how, even when hard sparring and competition isn't an option anymore.

[Yum Cha]

Don't make Yoda drop his cane!

[Jimbo]

That reminds me of a Vietnamese guy I knew for a while in the early '80s. He was about late 30s or so, looked younger than his age, and said he had practiced some type of combat art in Vietnam before and during the war. I don't remember hearing a name for the art, but he said it included knife/stick, as well as empty-hand. He said the knife training was done with live blades.

He trained very little anymore, mostly some self-practice of empty-hand movements and had not sparred regularly in years; but when a couple of us wanted to spar him, someone always got hurt, and it wasn't him. His movements appeared very awkward/sloppy, but he was very difficult to hit and when he did something back, it was accurate and hurt like he!!. It seemed very effortless on his part. He'd mentioned his training was from an uncle or someone, and that the practice had been very hard. I can only assume that he retained those experiences even though his hard training days were behind him.

[Syn7]

The online discussion is all about "words". The internet discussion is not online teaching class. There is no economic reason to share video for free.

what???

you do know i was agreeing with you right?

[Syn7]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58969&page=2

yeah i was vague about why i said 'youre joking right'... but that was a different thread... and was in response to those two particular videos... and no i dont speak chinese...

i can think of a ton of illegal moves in sport that are effective, most of us here who have ever actually fought can... i can also think of a ton of ways to hide and camo weapons for use in suprise attacks or just to have available in a pinch... again, anyone whos ever fought in the street can probably make the same claim... theres nothing particularily impressive about a guy who attaches something to his shoe... thats the kinda sh1t you see on tv...


as for kungs, sure, im all about strength and conditioning, like i said before, whether thats flipping tractor tires then hitting it with a heavy sledge for awhile, carrying around a kettle bell, slapping water out of a barrell or climbing a mountain on your hands and feet like a monkey...

[Syn7]

Jazz vs. Classical indeed. Whether you play jazz or classical, you still got to know your scales. Scales are your kungs.

WORD! i like that... well said...

saying mma fighters dont do strength and conditioning exercises is just retarded...

[YouKnowWho]

what???

you do know i was agreeing with you right?

If I mis-understood you then I apology. :o

Many years ago onetime I told my ex-girlfriend, "I love you." She said, "Just words." Since then I have always associated "word" with "blank statement - words that have no true meaning". :(

[-N-]

If I mis-understood you then I apology. :o

Many years ago onetime I told my ex-girlfriend, "I love you." She said, "Just words." Since then I have always associated "word" with "blank statement - words that have no true meaning". :(

Here you go. This is pretty close.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=word

[YouKnowWho]

Here you go. This is pretty close.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=word

May be I miss-understood my ex-grilfriend's true meaning and I should not break up with her. :o :(

[YouKnowWho]

WORD! i like that... well said...

saying mma fighters dont do strength and conditioning exercises is just retarded...
There are "direct Kung" and "indirect Kung". Both TCMA and MMA have indirect Kung training such as the weight bar. The indirect Kung will make your body strong so your body can perform well in general.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/3714/doubleheadsrotation.jpg

The direct Kung training may not make your body strong but it can help you to enhance certain skill. The TCMA has a lot of those special equipment training methods. The following exercise does not build big muscle on your body, but it will help you to develop certain skill.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/841/legtwist.jpg

This is the main reason that I like TCMA. We have:

- 2 men drill to develop a certain skill,
- equipment training to enhance it, and
- solo drill to polish it.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4315/linleglift.jpg

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3427/leglift.jpg

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2981/sct5.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

theres nothing particularily impressive about a guy who attaches something to his shoe... thats the kinda sh1t you see on tv...

A friend of mine put a metal piece in his boots (ankle area). It gives him great advantage for his roundhouse kick. He also carry hand gun 24-7 (he has gun license). That's true "warrior" spirit IMO.

[Syn7]

If I mis-understood you then I apology. :o

Many years ago onetime I told my ex-girlfriend, "I love you." She said, "Just words." Since then I have always associated "word" with "blank statement - words that have no true meaning". :(

nah lol... saying WORD is the easy way of say "yes i totally agree".... its a B-Boy thang... sorry, sometimes i just assume people understand urban slang...

[Syn7]

Here you go. This is pretty close.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=word

hillarious...



2. Word

"Word" is the shortened form of the phrase: "my word is my bond" which was originated by inmates in U.S. prisons. The longer phrase was shortened to "word is bond" before becoming "word," which is most commonly used. It basically means "truth." Or "to speak the truth."
"Yo, I fukced twelve b!tches last night."
"Word?" ("You speak the truth?")
"Word." ("I speak the truth.")





ofcourse the author is gonna be some knuckle dragging white college boy with a giant rope chain his mom bought him for grad...

[Syn7]

there are tons of two man drills in wrestling aswell as mma... TONS... and there are "kungs" of all sorts... depends on the camp... not all mma or wrestlers train the same ways... but trust me, some camps have all sorts of tried and tested "kungs" up and down the spectrum... you should check it out, they are very often quite comparable to tcma kungs... infact im sure some are taken from tcma and or copied and maybe modernized with all the new gear we have access to now... elastics for example...

so tell me... when a wrestler flips a tractor tire that stands 5 feet tall up and down some field, is that a direct kung?

how about when a defensive tackle pushes the sled across the field with coach standing on top yelling obscenities??? is that a direct kung??? it sure develops a specific skill... even if it does enhance general stamina and stregnth...

or are none of these kungs because they werent created in china by some monk or villiage peasant folk hero???


mma has kungs man... alot of them...

straight up...


look it up... true story ;)


and this is comming from somebody who has always had a love for tcma and still practice to this day... even if i do other stuff aswell... it hasnt tainted me, its expanded my horizons and made me a better fighter and a better athlete in general... im also a B-Boy for life and spent the first decade and a half of my life in a gymnastics club... i know kungs, from all aspects of all my passions...

[Yum Cha]

hillarious...





ofcourse the author is gonna be some knuckle dragging white college boy with a giant rope chain his mom bought him for grad...

Word...

2345678

[Syn7]

Word...

2345678

oh, word???

[SPJ]

techniques vs functions.

when I was young, I was a techno craft. I collected techniques. the more complexed one the better. the fancier one the better.

after a while, I started to notice that the more complexed ones needing more pre requisites, or less success rate.

the simple one or more direct and straighforward one has higher success rate.

so I stopped to collect but rather looked at the functional roles of each technique

and guess what we do not need that many techniques to do the same job/function

---

:)

[YouKnowWho]

so tell me... when a wrestler flips a tractor tire that stands 5 feet tall up and down some field, is that a direct kung?

how about when a defensive tackle pushes the sled across the field with coach standing on top yelling obscenities??? is that a direct kung??? it sure develops a specific skill... even if it does enhance general stamina and stregnth...

If his "intent" is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I'll call it "direct Kung", otherwise I'll call it "indirect Kung".

Since I'm not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.

[YouKnowWho]

we do not need that many techniques to do the same job/function...

Many people said, "A step is a kick, and a punch is a throw". I'll never be able to figure that out. The Chinese throwing art taught me "手腳要交待清楚(Shou Jiao Yao Jiao Dai Qin Chu) - "Your hands and feet position have to be precise" that was not emphasized enough in the Chinese strikimg art. For the same throw, different contact points will require different set up, and also different training method. The physical throw is easy. It's how to set it up that is hard.

[Frost]

If his "intent" is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I'll call it "direct Kung", otherwise I'll call it "indirect Kung".

Since I'm not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.

Since you are as you say only a TCMA guy maybe you should not tell guys who do MMA what MMA training is or is not


All sports training goes from the general to the specific....all sports training including MMA:

You have to build a base first, both endurance and strength wise using basic conditioning and strength exercieses (at this time you use your skill sessions to transfer that strength and conditioning and make it sports specific) as your training intensifys you start to tailor it and make it more specific: if you are fighting 5 x 3 min thai rounds your conditioning and strength work will be different than if you are fighting 2 x 5 min rounds of MMA. The tools you use become more specific, punching against bands or heavy pads, grappling with dummies and using throwing dummies etc (hell martin rooneys guys use sledge hammers in a very specific way to help mimic judo throws) you use fresh heavy partners in your grappling training to further develop sports specific strength and conditioning
taylor.

[YouKnowWho]

I think, with all due respect, you haven't seen much MMA training

they may not call them "kung" but that doesn't mean they are different


Since you are as you say only a TCMA guy maybe you should not tell guys who do MMA what MMA training is or is not.
The only thing that I have said in this thread was, "Now we are talking about 'Kung' in TCMA that MMA guys just don't beliegve it ever exists". I was talking about MMA guys don't believe Kung training exist in TCMA (as if all TCMA guys are form performers) which has nothing to do with whether Kung training exist in MMA or not.

This mis-understanding could be similiar to the mis-understanding of "WORD". I'm a "cross training" guy. I just don't cross train boxing, MT, Judo, and BJJ if that's the defiinition of MMA.

[Yum Cha]

@ Frost - I think a good point has been made, a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.

By training some of our more esoteric (or call them inefficient) techniques in such high repetitions, in isolation, a 'special' skill is developed. Not saying that other skills aren't developed as well, but some are just 'special'. Examples of 'special' skills vary, and litter this thread.

It goes back to that metaphor I brought up earlier, classical vs jazz.

A hip hop dancer vs a ballett dancer. Discipline vs creativity.

The superior fighter will of course have both in spades.

But, I just don't see a similar training concept in Modern MA. All the focus goes into strength, endurance and MMA training.

I think its also a post-fighting age thing, because you start looking for new outlets and have a good grasp on the fundamentals, plus some...you'd reckon...

[YouKnowWho]

a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.
It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.

- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- ...

The "single leg" in TCMA is called 扣(Kou), and the "double legs" in TCMA is called 搂(Lou). Both are using the "single head weight bar" to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg

What kind of Kung training is used to "enhance" the "single leg" and "double legs" in MMA? Does anybody care to share?

[Syn7]

If his "intent" is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I'll call it "direct Kung", otherwise I'll call it "indirect Kung".

Since I'm not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.

so then football has direct kungs??? so why cant mma? also i think most people realise tcma has strength and conditioning in all the systems... al MA's do.... every single one... they have to or they wont work....

[Syn7]

"Your hands and feet position have to be precise" that was not emphasized enough in the Chinese strikimg art.

thats because they actually threw eachother and knew whatr it took to throw somebody from experience thru trial and error in practice... unfortunately, since alot of tcma do not spar full contact with their striking, they never learn what it really takes to land effective strikes in an aggressive situation...

not all tcma is like this, but alot are... the ones that actually spar full contact are usually pretty good fighters... atleast against the kind of opponents they spar against... the wider range of opponents, the wider range of effective combat skill and knowledge...

[Frost]

@ Frost - I think a good point has been made, a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.

By training some of our more esoteric (or call them inefficient) techniques in such high repetitions, in isolation, a 'special' skill is developed. Not saying that other skills aren't developed as well, but some are just 'special'. Examples of 'special' skills vary, and litter this thread.

It goes back to that metaphor I brought up earlier, classical vs jazz.

A hip hop dancer vs a ballett dancer. Discipline vs creativity.

The superior fighter will of course have both in spades.

But, I just don't see a similar training concept in Modern MA. All the focus goes into strength, endurance and MMA training.

I think its also a post-fighting age thing, because you start looking for new outlets and have a good grasp on the fundamentals, plus some...you'd reckon...

They might litter this thread but I;m thick can you give a few examples please!

Because MMA guys isolate drills to work on specific techniques or skills all the time

Are you talking about techniques done in isolation to develop a skill (which is done all the time in MMA and grappling), we spend hours isolating the shot, isolating how to jab isolating just the clinch or a specific attack from it, and this continues all through your classes and career

Or are you talking about developing a specific skill? which is again done all the time in MMA, want to work on explosiveness, then you do this, want to work on your short range power punches again this is done…want to work on your ability to in fight, then this is isolated as well

[Frost]

It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.

- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- ...

The "single leg" in TCMA is called 扣(Kou), and the "double legs" in TCMA is called 搂(Lou). Both are using the "single head weight bar" to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg

What kind of Kung training is used to "enhance" the "single leg" and "double legs" in MMA? Does anybody care to share?

Partner training using various different weights of partners, some work against bands practising their shots but the actual lifting portion of the takedown is done with a partner

MMA guys tend to isolate drills and use them with live resistance seeing that this is the closest you can get to the actual skill, otherwise no matter what you are doing it is still indirect by its very nature

[Syn7]

It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.

- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- ...

The "single leg" in TCMA is called 扣(Kou), and the "double legs" in TCMA is called 搂(Lou). Both are using the "single head weight bar" to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg

What kind of Kung training is used to "enhance" the "single leg" and "double legs" in MMA? Does anybody care to share?


there are so so so many similarities in the kungs... TONS...
but...
mma doesnt have as many specific kungs as tcma... i mean some tcma will have a program to train each finger.... tcma has been overthought to an extent and is absolutely full to the brim with ideas... i feel the best systems tcma have to offer are the ones who have pared down their style to the bare essentials stressing solid foundation above all else and stregth and conditioning would be a close second to that... these two being far above all else... but one that also stresses the trial and error method in the most realistic ways our creative minds can come up with... to put more time into trying our techniques in full contact sparring a whole lot more than any forms training or shadow boxing... those are warm ups for after stretching, nothing more...
i know there are tcma schools out there that are exactly as i described...

[YouKnowWho]

live resistance

It's hard to have training partners 24/7. Sometime it may be too hard to use your training partner as your dummy (that's why heavy bag is designed).

[Frost]

It's hard to have training partners 24/7. Sometime it may be too hard to use your training partner as your dummy (that's why heavy bag is designed).

True but the single best way to train any throw is with a live partner, nothing else really comes close to mimicking how the body moves and how he reacts

Strikers use the heavy bag but they will all agree its nothing like actually sparring, and throwing a dummy or lifting a dummy again is not the same as doing it to a partner.

Personally if not in class I would either be resting and recovering or using outside time for general conditioning and general strength work, and then using class time to transfer that to my specific sport. If I wanted to get better at double legs I would use them as part of my warm up to leg the correct moement down when still fresh, work on leg and core strength with squats and dead lifts, work on the explosiveness with OL lifts, jumps and bounds, and then use class time to actually work the takedowns. I have found mimicking my sport in my strength work to be counter productive, but that’s just me

[YouKnowWho]

That's why the TCMA defines "skill training" as "school work" and "Kung training" as "home work". There are also "direct (special) Kung training" and "indirect (general) Kung training".

IMO, there are certain skill just cannot be enhanced by "indirect (general) Kung training" only. But I'm sure 500 years from now, MMA will develop more "direct (special) Kung training". What we may call MMA today will be called as TMA in the future.

[MightyB]

I think the intent of this thread is getting a bit off.

Instead of being another MMA vs TCMA thread... let's revise the discussion a bit to get it back on track which is TCMA Approaches that we like.
---

YouKnowWho wrote that he enjoys the specific "Kung" training methods, and, when you see them they are actually pretty cool and useful.

Someone else made the comparison stating that MMA has "Kung" type of training... ok.

So where can we take the discussion from here? Let's say that TCMA Kung training is worth investigating because it enhances martial ability... and as an example, MMA guys use a version of their own "kung" training to get ready for the ring.

So, let's find out what some of those TCMA "kung" training methods are so that we can determine for ourselves which ones we'd like to try. Please refrain from using personal blanket judgements with saying "oh, that's a bad one" or whatever. Just share, observe, and enjoy.

[SPJ]

gong training in CMA can be general and specific as pointed out

1. there are soft and hard.

2. there are grabbing, holding, lifting, striking, throwing, leg sweeping, leg hooking. bending back forward and backward---

3. using weight/lead as tied on ankle, forearm, weight lifting---

4. using pole or poles

----

it is too big a topic

breath work, running, swimming the general strength and endurance conditioning

conditioning of the hand, forearm, back/chest etc etc are hard or yin gong

on and on

[SPJ]

the most important but not discussed enough

is pai da gong

or self strike from light, moderate to intense/heavy

all over our body parts

so that we know how to deal with or lessen if not how to take a beating

of all kinds that land on our both soft and hard parts of our body

using bamboo brush, stick covered with cloth, --staff

well, in modern time, we use soft rubber first and hit away our body all over

I usually use my own fist or palm and strike my self starting lightly and then moderately

right fist hitting left palm, right front foot hitting back of left lower leg etc etc

:)

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw&feature=grec_index

listen to what he says at the end

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw&feature=grec_index

listen to what he says at the end

I have to admit that's one of my favorite short documentaries.

Like this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zmL6BRCOA&feature=related

[SPJ]

combination and repetition

you may combine 3 to 5 single moves and vary them, it is easy for one to defend one move at a time but quite a challenge to defend several moves one after another

repetition, left right mid

or the same move one after another, fast and faster, 3 to5 same moves in a row

or chained moves

I think all the arts have these 2 ideas.

it is a never ending fun to practice and vary.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

So, let's find out what some of those TCMA "kung" training methods are so that we can determine for ourselves which ones we'd like to try. Please refrain from using personal blanket judgements with saying "oh, that's a bad one" or whatever. Just share, observe, and enjoy.

Both the "head lock" and "leg twist" Kung training are my favor. Here is a clip to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnQj1Lx02Y&feature=channel

[SPJ]

Both the "head lock" and "leg twist" Kung training are my favor. Here is a clip to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnQj1Lx02Y&feature=channel

a good use of a padded pole.

thanks for sharing.

:cool:

[MightyB]

Both the "head lock" and "leg twist" Kung training are my favor. Here is a clip to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnQj1Lx02Y&feature=channel

That was Awesome! I just put that in my favorites!!!

Plus- your invention will save me about an hour's worth of time tonight while I'm editing my last HS football game for this season- so thanks for that too.

I used to read stories about your Master when I was in college. I believe it was in David Chow's book on Kung Fu... but I can't remember. I just remember his nickname and something about how he wrapped his leg around a rope while drawing water from a well because he had seen a martial monk do it that way.

[YouKnowWho]

This move was my teacher's best move and also his teacher's best move.

[Yum Cha]

That's awesome, I agree.

That's the traditional approach, up and down.

It makes me think of the people who's work demands, reinforce their Kung Fu.

My mate the waterproofer, who uses a brush with sticky goo all day. A grip you can't break.

....and they say you should never get into a knife fight with a butcher...

[-N-]

It makes me think of the people who's work demands, reinforce their Kung Fu.

When I used to do a lot of sheet metal fabrication, I had to handle a lot of greasy 80 lb 4x8 sheets of razor sharp metal.

I always cut and stocked the material by myself because my coworkers were clumsy and I didn't want to get hurt by them. Also, it was more dangerous to wear gloves for some types of work, because you couldn't get a good feel or grip for the metal.

Shearing the metal involved grabbing it at the middle of the long edge and lifting it vertically overhead onto the machines. I also had to do a lot of hand cutting with aviation snips.

During that time I got asked to be a subject in a research experiment that tested reaction time and grip strength. I got wired up to a bunch of electrodes and got strapped into a piece of lab equipment.

The researcher couldn't believe the readings she was getting, and asked what I did for work etc. It all made sense to her after I explained about kung fu and my job.

[TenTigers]

Both the "head lock" and "leg twist" Kung training are my favor. Here is a clip to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnQj1Lx02Y&feature=channel

"mun mo seurng chuen" truly a scholar warrior.

[TenTigers]

I worked in a bakery for a bit, and the head baker had a grip of iron. All day long kneading and rolling dough.

[taai gihk yahn]

I worked in a bakery for a bit, and the head baker had a grip of iron. All day long kneading and rolling dough.

the best bagua guy I ever knew (long-time, in-door student of BP Chan's) was a baker, used to work crazy long hours / shifts and attributed a lot of his bagua skill (which was not insignificant) to the sort of work he did (it also helped that he was a sociopath / possible psychopath, but anyway...)

[Yum Cha]

Back when I was a young guy, and fighting a lot, I used to work in an Army warehouse. Everything came in boxes of 6x #10 cans, those big tins, size of a 5L petrol tank. If it were water, maybe 30L, =30kg, 66lbs? more or less. Filled with food. Pick up and throw to the next guy, 1000 times a day, maybe more. Food in, food out. Move it to another room and clean that one. Move it back. Afternoon load coming in..... Evening meal going out....

The 25 and 50lb cases of rock hard frozen meat were even more fun....like stacking slabs of ice...

Good stuff, never had any training that compared to hard work like that!


I also reckon guitar playing and typing give you better grip and finger strength.

[YouKnowWho]

When I trained for my last tournament in 1984, I spent 3 months by moving a huge rock in my front yard. During that tournament, I moved myself from the heavy weight division (I weight 178 lb) to the super heavy weight division (200 lb and up). Since I knew I might be the strongest guy in that tournament, I had a lot of confidence when facing those big guys. Today I still have that hugh rock next to my driveway. Only one of my students could lift that rock off the ground.

[-N-]

We need to make our students do all our yard work and house chores :)

[Syn7]

as an electrician, i find tons of exercises at work... esspecially on new towers... lots of stairs, lots of wire, lots of parts, lots of tools... all heavy... and then theres the task of sending 3 inch thick tech cable down a hole that is in exactly the same place on every floor all the way down 30 or 40 floors... after the 7 or 8th floor that sh!t gets real heavy but you do not want to lose control of that reel or youre fukced... not a task to do alone... absolutely awsome stance work... a whole body workout...