Building a TCMA Library Thread.

[MightyB]

Ok everyone - it's time to list your favorite TCMA books for building a TCMA reference library.

Ground rules: List a MAM link for purchasing the book whenever it's possible because we should be supporting our forum sponsors. If it's not available through MAM, just put the link where we can find it.

Here's one of my favorites: http://www.martialartsmart.com/b-ww005.html
Kung Fu Elements. It's filled with a lot of basic and foundation exercises and philosophies that are good to know and drill. Plus, the Appendix of styles at the end is an awesome reference source.

[MightyB]

http://www.martialartsmart.com/b-ym36x.html
Great overview of Chin Na.

[-N-]

My favorite Chin Na books.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Chin-Na-Detailed-Analysis/dp/0865681759/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Simplified-Capture-Skills-Chinese-English-Chinese/dp/9622380131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289488991&sr=8-1

[-N-]

Not Chinese, but in reality there is absolutely no difference in the ideas.

http://www.amazon.com/Rings-Miyamoto-Harris-Victor-Musashi/dp/B001DTTI28/ref=tmm_hrd_title_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289489108&sr=1-1

I prefer that translation over many others.

http://www.amazon.com/Unfettered-Mind-Writings-Master-Warrior/dp/087011851X

http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Mind-Yagyu-Muenori/dp/0879512563#_

[-N-]

These are modern classics.

http://www.amazon.com/Leg--Attack-Methods-Shaolin-Kungfu/dp/9622380077/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289489631&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/12-Fatal-Leg-Attack-Techniques-Chinese/dp/9622380484/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289489631&sr=1-1

[sanjuro_ronin]

Two must haves for those wanting to know the verifiable history of TCMA:
Jing Wu:
http://www.amazon.com/Jingwu-School-that-Transformed-Kung/dp/1583942424/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289490177&sr=1-1

CHinese Martial Arts training Manuals:
http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial-Arts-Training-Manuals/dp/1583941940/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Sword polishers record by Adma Hsu
http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Polishers-Record-Kung-Fu-Martial/dp/0804831386/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289490243&sr=1-1

[SPJ]

categiorization just like libray of any kind

1. history

2. techniques: strike, chin na, shuai etc

3. school or system, shaolin, wudang, kuo shu, wu tan, jin wu etc

4. style: tai chi, ba gua, xing yi, mantis

5. northern or southern, tibetan, mongolian, moslem, ho kien, taiwan ---

6 instrusction, manual--

7. dvd, vcd

8 ipad/ipod/iphone apps, kindle ebook

9. weapon, sword, dao, staff---

----

[Jimbo]

Lone Sword Against the Cold Cold Sky; by Adam Hsu. I purchased this through www.plumpub.com.

The Method of Chinese Wrestling, by Tong Zhongyi; translated by Tim Cartmell. I bought this at Borders Bookstore.

The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army: Huang Bo Nien's Xingyi Fist and Weapon Instruction; by Dennis Rovere, with translation by Chow Hon Huen. Also bought at Borders Bookstore.

[brothernumber9]

This book was a good intro/first read into general TCMA styles for me.

The Complete Guide to Kung Fu Fighting Styles by Jane Hollander
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Kung-Fighting-Styles/dp/0865680655

[GeneChing]

Shaolin Trips (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1) by me. It makes a great holiday gift! ;)

[lkfmdc]

Shaolin Trips (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1) by me. It makes a great holiday gift! ;)

Out of respect (and fear of banning) I will not put up the promotional pic I created for this excellent title ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Chan-Chiao Theory
The Art and Science of Combat Shuai-Chiao
By Master David Lin

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/merchandise.html

[ironclaw1981]

1. THE SHAOLIN GRANDMASTERS TEXT
2. THE ART OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU by WONG KIEW KIT
3. PRACTICAL KUNG FU by WAYSON JOHNNY TSAI
THESE ARE THREE THAT I LOOK OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!

[Jimbo]

Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xing Yi and Bagua; by Lu Shengli.

Effortless Combat Throws; by Tim Cartmell.

*both were bought at Borders Bookstore.*

Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods; by Robert W. Smith. This one should still be in print.

Martial Musings; by Robert W. Smith. Not a purely CMA-related book; it's basically a look back at Smith's own martial arts background and his views on the current state of MA. You don't have to agree with all of his views to find this a good read.

The Power of Internal Martial Arts, by B.K. Frantzis.

[lkfmdc]

Liang Shou Yu and yang's Shuai Jiao and Hsing Yi books are both pretty good

Yang's Chin Na books introduce concepts, but IMHO try to hard to show too many "niffty" techniques

Shum Leung has written two (more?) good eagle claw books

Cartmell translated "practical chin na"

Lee Koon Hung's CLF book

gotta think, but there are certainly more

[Syn7]

i am mos def a book collector... but i find nothing more frustrating than instructional MA books... esspecially chinese ones with those freakin drawings and massive gaps between A and B and so on... so i never really took any instructional books very seriously and always read them, get what i can and move on... i got more psycological and spiritual advice than practical fighting techniques...

but off the top of my head...: i found the "72 arts of shaolin" by jin jing zhong to be pretty inspiring when i was young...


i also really enjoy robert w smiths writing... esspecially his "martial musings" book...

[SPJ]

after reading so many techniques with a lot pictures

I am more into theory or summary of functions of techniques.

I second the zhan jiao theory book by david lin.

:cool:

[Eric Olson]

Sword polishers record by Adma Hsu
http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Polisher...9490243&sr=1-1


Gold!!!!:D:D:D

EO

[MightyB]

American Shaolin was funny, insightful, and great! It's worth reading. http://www.amazon.com/American-Shaolin-Flying-Buddhist-Odyssey/dp/B001FWXRF2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289570564&sr=8-1

[ghostexorcist]

1. THE SHAOLIN GRANDMASTERS TEXT
2. THE ART OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU by WONG KIEW KIT
3. PRACTICAL KUNG FU by WAYSON JOHNNY TSAI
THESE ARE THREE THAT I LOOK OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!
There aren't many people on here who look at The Shaolin Grandmaster's Text with a kind eye.

Anyway, I already created a thread similar to this months ago:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly

[MightyB]

There aren't many people on here who look at The Shaolin Grandmaster's Text with a kind eye.

Anyway, I already created a thread similar to this months ago:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly

If it can stay on topic, this thread should be sticky.

[KC Elbows]

I'll have to edit this post later to fill out author names and such.

There's one book in chinese I have, 中国摔交术, Chinese Throwing Skills, that has been quite helpful.

The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship by Zhang Yun, is in a format I like, in that it focuses on form in execution, not form in and of itself.

I have a book in Chinese whose name escapes me now, I'll have to look it up later. It's a Chen style form, step by step, but again, it is the form in usage step by step, not the form.

Chin na fa by liu Jinsheng and Zhao Jiang.

Volume two of Aikido and Chinese Martial arts, the second section, mostly covering sword, is decent for sticking to basics in application, imo.

散打妙摔100招 is one I've been checking out lately.

Anything that is just a person doing forms is not for me.

[ironclaw1981]

There aren't many people on here who look at The Shaolin Grandmaster's Text with a kind eye.

Anyway, I already created a thread similar to this months ago:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly

why i wonder??? i guess it probably offends those that think that shaolin today is the same as its always been!! idk, i think everything is looked at skeptically on here, i enjoyed that book tho

[Foiling Fist]

Since there are a number of concepts that were not published before the 2008 copyright, the book does have some merit; let the reader sort out for themselves what applies and what does not. All of the new concepts are in the translated. This comprises the thirty one pages of preface and the first fourteen pages in Chapter 1, of the one hundred forty four pages; and is good. The rest of the book has demonstrations by Dennis Rovere; which I will cover later.

A number of good points that until then; had not been explicitly stated were on pages 8-9:

“Left shoulder bends while right shoulder follows the body. This allows strength to reach the hand. …

Left hand drops slightly while right hand stretches with power. …

Like a bow, but not exactly like a bow. …

All of the toes should grab the floor. …

If the position is too low the power will be lost. That is why it is better to be higher.”

These all apply to a scissor stepping a moving root and a firmness that is not externally fixed. This firmness is not rigid but ‘stretches’.

The above makes excellent points brought out by the passages translated by Chow Hon Huen; which were based on 1928 book, Huang Bo Nien’s Xingyi Fist and Weapons Instruction, a credit to them.

Since the work is not Rovere’s, nor did he translate it; his comments are questionable.

I see major discrepancies in Rovere’s posed photographs; between the illustrations that are in the background of his poses, in classic Hsing-I fundamentals, and universal martial concepts.

On page eighteen, Rovere writes:
“If your weight is back-weighted, basic bio-mechanics will show that you will be prevented from delivering all of your force into the target.

Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

Having your stance back-weighted also leads to another problem, namely, a tendency to straighten the front leg. Any low kick, such as a Xingyi horse kick targeting the straightened knee, would easily cause it to hyperflex, severely damaging it.”

An external kick is limited by biomechanics, an internally generated kick is not.

When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends there time on forms/Katas does not. When you advance, your training prevents this.

A major foundation of Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts is the stance concept of having either leg being empty or full. This is not weight, although sometimes they are the same. This is fullness of Qi, stance rooting and a centering of the driving energy.
This is the generator of the wave flow force, using the whole body weight being directed into the strike. Kinematics deal s with this somewhat, not biomechanics.

“Sung Shi-Jung
…Therefore, in Hsing-I never equally share the weight on your two feet.”
Hsing-I, Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, by Robert W. Smith, page 98.

No real internal talk in photo dialog or any mention of San Ti Qigong.

Dennis Rover ‘is the first non-Asian to receive special recognition as a martial arts instructor from the government of the People’s Republic of China’, page 144. Why would they recognize him if he was not practical? The People’s Republic of China has not taught this Hsing-i to their military for decades, so they give up some de-clawed and outdated methods to China’s main military competition; America/Great Britain.

Rovere was taught by Colonel of the Central Military Academy at Nanjing; who should have been the one posing for the photos to insure quality. This might have been the best for the West in 1974; but it is not now. Perhaps most westerners will never understand the deeper aspects of Hsing-i; if that is the case; the maybe this Reader’s Digest version is for them.

In looking at Rovere’s photos; and comparing them with the background older photos: the saber has the most obvious differences and discrepancies with the older photos and illustrations.

All saber photos show Rovere with a higher, non rooted stance; without sinking! It is like looking at a boat or truck that is empty compared to one that is full loaded.

When Rover holds the Hsing-I Saber,
1) overhead; he extends his arms out more in front;
a) it relies more on the arms than the stance and body centering and
b) requires more forward momentum or arm strength for power;

2) when at rest and chambered: the saber is held further from a one’s lower Dan Tien at the rest/prone position; as illustrated in background picture which

Holding the saber higher may have some practicality for running or marching drills, but still lacks the power. Not having the saber swing all the way down and back to a position closer to the Lower Dan Tien; constricts the power of the swing, and looses the benefits of rooting and Qi focusing through one’s center.

When looking at Rovere’s Empty Hand photos; and comparing them with the background older photos and illustrations:

On page 17, Figure 2-4B, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with Dennis Rovere, who appears to be leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners

On page 19, Figure 2-5A; Rovere has his front leg straight and bent in ward; this is not a San Ti stance. This is very susceptible to a break with a quick snap kick.

There are two universal defense against kicks to the knee:
1) angling the knee forward, so the kick gets hit by the front striking area of the knee,
rather than the more flexible joint;
2) when in a Cat Stance, T-Stance or San-Ti; the lesser weight of the front foot is shifted backward toward rear leg, and
a) the front leg evades the kick by repositioning or
b) the front leg’s knee is repositioned to hit attacker with knee or shin strike.

When Rovere talks about attacks to the front leg, he uses:
1) the even weightedness of the stance to supposedly make front leg repositioning easier, and
2) and the front leg’s toes being bent slightly inward, to make breaking of the knee more difficult.

Brian Kennedy has a note on the back cover praising the classic it is based upon; which I agree with; but it is not a fine training manual!

Page 42, Rovere’s front punch is held horizontally as in karate, not vertically like the photo right next to it! This discrepancy is highlighted by Rovere’s own commentary elsewhere about vertical fist punches being better.

There are some fundamental differences in Rover’s empty-hand movements that are more forward leaning, the purported stance is double weighted based on biomechanics not internal energy. Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts are more grounded and strikes focused by the Lower Dan Tien.

I distinguish between the translated classical work, from Rovere’s additions; I see major differences.

The book is not a copy of training manual but an approximation; filtered and edited; quoting from the book’s back cover; ‘to present an in-depth explanation of the original text … based upon actual training methods’ . These are not the original text, but explanations of them. These are not the actual training methods, but based upon them!

Consider the reason that pici training was left out of this book, as stated in page 56;
“Huang makes no mention of pici training with short weapons.
This is odd for two reasons:
Practice of this kind was well known and going on at the time of Huang’s writing.
Combat applications using dagger and bayonet are the most immediately identifiable with empty hand training”

To Rover’s credit; he has added them to his version of the book; showing his heart might well be in the right place. He appears to be better at writing than demonstrating.

Since some of the book is good; and some is not I would have to qualify the book; as ‘unpredictable results’. This phrase is used be techies at IBM, and its meaning is not good.

One who has not trained for a long time in Hsing-I, or in Qigong probably will not notice the differences. One who is experienced might be able to filter the nuggets out of this ore; but beginner’s who want to invest even two years of serious study would do better to avoid it.

[Foiling Fist]

New Qigong book: Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout. The internal energy focus of the book has many paths: hard and soft style Qigong, static and moving postures. Calming emphasis in Qi methods for energy pooling and meridian circulation. Quick projection of explosive Fa Jing in health or attack; as is used in Dim Mak and healing hands.

Wrist and fore-arm stretches to help energy flow:
these can help with tendonitis, typing hands, carp-tunnel, and muscle knots;
that will help the energy flow through your wrists,
preventing injury and learning wrist locks as well as
teaching grappling seizures and locks,
and will help you transfer it more effectively;

Progress, consciousness, and power are all tested objectively in meditation, Qigong, martial drills, as well as in-animate objects.

Five move Tai Chi form and Hsing I Five Elements detailed with step by step pictures, instructions, and internal focus as well as what you will feel.

Hsing-i Twelve Animals described step by step.

Standing Pole (Embrace the Moon or Hold the Ball) fixed and
movig forms of 1)shifting the water and 2)rising-expanding/sinking-contracting;

Fore-arm Throw double set, dynamic drill, adjusting moving root,
responsive blocking enabling the same move for offence and defense,
center of Qi as it moves through oneself and
the center between two people;

Hsing-i San Ti: standing and moving for Qi and Fa Jing;

This workout book contains many everyday methods for internals, meditations, rooting, exercises, tests and self adjustments.

Geared for learning, use study and reference, based on your own background and experience.

Greg Hayes has been studying Martial Arts since 1971 including the
Wide Circle of Kung Fu of Joseph Greenstein (The Might Atom of Ripley's and Guinness Book of World Records), and Grandmaster Wong Jack (Chia) Man of San Francisco Jing Mo (the first person to complete all of the Northern Shaolin studies since World War II), using Lohan, Northern Shaolin, Hsing I (Xing Yi) San Ti Qigong and Nei Gung. Sifu Wong’s direct lineage can be traced to the Ching soldiers burning of Honan Shaolin Temple 1732 AD., when Monk Chi Yuan escaped and went to Shantung province.

He trained with the late renown healer Mildred Jackson N.D, author of the Handbook of Alternatives to Chemical Medicines, in herbs, diet, and aura readings.

Sifu Hayes has taught Hsing-i, Shaolin, Tai Chi and Qigong since 1991.

Book is available at publisher Lulu:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/axe-hand-hsing-i-internal-strength-workout/15063347

or at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Hsing-i-Internal-Strength-Workout/dp/1257047116/

More information at:
http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com/book-intro.php

[bawang]

instead of reading guys writing half truth distorted myths about ancient kung fu masters, you guys should get translated books of actual ancient masters.

then all this nonsense and retarded questions would never happen.

[David Jamieson]

when are you going to begin said translation services Bawang?

lol, I'm sure a lot of people would like to have english versions of old manuals so they can read the words:

when he's close, hit him.
when he is falling back, run him down.
hit him.
keep hitting here and here.
kick this part.
use a knife.

and so on... lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its too bad that no one has ever done for TCMA what Draeger did for the Japanese arts in his excellent 3 volume series:
Classical Bujutsu
Classical Budo
Modern Budo and Bujutsu.

[David Jamieson]

To be honest I never was much for MA books. I mean I have a few and have glanced through a few others.

I really prefer training and getting lessons.
My reading these days is all over the place otherwise. :)

I do have a couple of old chinese books that cover all styles of taiji (wu1, wu2, yang, chen, sun) and another that covers all the northern styles (hua, fa, cha, pao, hong.) It is interesting to browse these and try and pull a little out now and then.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am a reading buff and a history one to boot.
So I love to read MA books and have a huge collection.
I have learned decades ago that one doesn't learn MA from a book, but the researching can help one to better understand how that MA came to be what it is, and what it was.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Its too bad that no one has ever done for TCMA what Draeger did for the Japanese arts in his excellent 3 volume series:
Classical Bujutsu
Classical Budo
Modern Budo and Bujutsu.

Agreed, actually reading Invicible Warrior by John Stevens about O'sensei Morehei Uesheba and Aikido...interesting but lots of mystical lore in there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed, actually reading Invicible Warrior by John Stevens about O'sensei Morehei Uesheba and Aikido...interesting but lots of mystical lore in there.

Indeed, I have Ueshiba's "Budo" and it is far more "realistic".

[Lucas]

I personally dont read books for application, i dont see any reason too since i have enough to work on in the gym. i prefer to read for history, understanding, philosophy and entertainment. heres a few books that relate to martial arts that i think most people would be able to benefit from in one way or another.

Qigong for Health, and Martial Arts (http://www.martialartsmart.com/b-ym574.html)

The Root of Chinese Qigong (http://www.martialartsmart.com/b-ym507.html)

A Tooth from the Tigers Mouth (http://www.amazon.com/Tooth-Tigers-Mouth-Injuries-Powerful/dp/0743245512)

The Unfettered Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Unfettered-Mind-Deluxe-Gift/dp/B004V2VMWS/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317310062&sr=1-2)

[SPJ]

I have some books from late 1920s and 1930s from Kuo shu guan era.

My brothers scanned them into PDF files.

if you search some university library from China, you may be able to read them in PDF files.

--

nowadays,

there are blogs, youtube, websites, forums

lots of info on the net. some are good, some are not.

my point is that

not all the info are printed and bound in books.

and most of good ones from the old time are out of prints anyway

etc etc.

--

--

:)

[SPJ]

my point was that if you search some libraries in china

they already have good collections of the old ones

--

:cool:

[Foiling Fist]

Chinese Boxing, Masters & Methods, by Robert Smith

Xing Yi Quan Xue, The Study of Mind-Form Boxing by Sun Lu Tang

Qigong, the Secret of Youth, Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's YMAA Publications,
YMAA Publications

XingYiquan, Theory, Applications, fighting Tactics and Spirit: by Liang,
Shou-Yu & Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

Chinese Mind-Boxing, by Robert Smith, Advise From the Masters, by Kuo
Yun-Shen

Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by Robert Smith, from Kodansha Press
in Japan (1981, ISBN 0-87011-476-X, but his new book called Hsing Yi,
with his student is not recommended, due to its external focus.
Good reprinting recently: Hsing-I book title, now Hsing-i: Chinese Mind-
Body Boxing, originally ISBN 1-55643-455-3 by North Atlantic Books.

Classical Xingyi Quan Vol 111, Xingyi Mu Quan (Mother Fist) by Jiang
Rongqiao (1929), translated by Joseph Crandell (1999),
Smiling Tiger Martial Arts, Pinole, CA, 94564.
This is an excellent translation by Joseph. He learned from Peter Ralston
who learned from Grandmaster Wong Jack Man.

Xing Yi Nei Gong by Dan Miller and Tim Cartwell 1994,
High View Publishing, Pacific Grove ISBN 1-883175-04-6.
This book is known for securing and transmitting information from old
Hsing-I manuals and collecting in one volume.

[Foiling Fist]

If you have books to recommend then state them.

Without you specifying titles or location; you are just babbling.

Put them up, or shut up.



instead of reading guys writing half truth distorted myths about ancient kung fu masters, you guys should get translated books of actual ancient masters.

then all this nonsense and retarded questions would never happen.

[rovere]

I think you missed the point(s):(:

"Although knowledge in book appears sound, not all of the example photos are. On page 17, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with what appears to the author Dennis Rovere; Leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners."

To respond: If you read the text and the captions: I am not illustrating a xingyi punch but rather showing how the body has to absorb or can redirect the force using the half turn position. the 45 degree angle of the torso lets the strike aimed at the centre line simply slide past. If you look at the section on peng quan my position is not leaning nor is my head extended.

"Before the forward hand is thrust out and downward (splitting-chopping), the opposite hand should be raised up vertically; as in the uppercut in Water. This is not done by Rovere in his photo on page 16; Figure2-3m1; the two hands are on a near horizontal plane; rather than increasing the angle to a closer vertical relationship."

To respond: Do you know what horizontal means? My lead fist is pointed up and greater than 90 degree angle as is the back hand. Too vertical and the arm will collapse if you push against it. I suggest a course in mechanics in order to help you better understand angles of force. Horizontal refers to parallel to the ground (x axis in space); vertical is up and down (y axis in space). You need to rethink your comments.

Since I actually trained with the "old time practitioners" I think I have a pretty good idea of how to do pi quan.:D

[David Jamieson]

Hey! Dennis Rovere!

Nice to see you posting again man!
cheers.

[Xue Sheng]

I think you missed the point(s):(:

"Although knowledge in book appears sound, not all of the example photos are. On page 17, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with what appears to the author Dennis Rovere; Leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners."

To respond: If you read the text and the captions: I am not illustrating a xingyi punch but rather showing how the body has to absorb or can redirect the force using the half turn position. the 45 degree angle of the torso lets the strike aimed at the centre line simply slide past. If you look at the section on peng quan my position is not leaning nor is my head extended.

"Before the forward hand is thrust out and downward (splitting-chopping), the opposite hand should be raised up vertically; as in the uppercut in Water. This is not done by Rovere in his photo on page 16; Figure2-3m1; the two hands are on a near horizontal plane; rather than increasing the angle to a closer vertical relationship."

To respond: Do you know what horizontal means? My lead fist is pointed up and greater than 90 degree angle as is the back hand. Too vertical and the arm will collapse if you push against it. I suggest a course in mechanics in order to help you better understand angles of force. Horizontal refers to parallel to the ground (x axis in space); vertical is up and down (y axis in space). You need to rethink your comments.

Since I actually trained with the "old time practitioners" I think I have a pretty good idea of how to do pi quan.:D

Mr Rovere

I am a Xingyi guy and I very much like your book, and I have recommended it to several people both Xingyi and not Xingyi, I would love to train it in that manner but I am far from Canada.


New Qigong book: Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout.

Nice review - do you often review your own book and post that on a website;)

And now before you accuse me of following you here, I have been reading Kung Fu Magazine forum for years and I joined back in February 2010, but I do admit I mostly lurk here

[rovere]

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I thought I would have more time since I retired but between the academic lecturing and expert witness work, I seem to be more busy than before. It's nice someone remembers me.

FYI I am having a xingyi article published in the Journal of Chinese Martial Studies (Nov./Dec.) - one that departs from the 'normal fare'.

I hope all is well with you.

Dennis

[rovere]

for your kind comments about my book and recommendations. I seem to be traveling more often these days so perhaps we will have an opportunity to meet in the future.

BTW My family and I spent several days with Stan Henning and his lovely wife when we were in Hawaii and I understand he is doing a joint book review for mine and Brian Kennedy's Jingwu book. I trust it will be unbiased as Stan is a real scholar who is not afraid to go against popular opinion.

Continued success with your training.

Dennis

[Xue Sheng]

for your kind comments about my book and recommendations. I seem to be traveling more often these days so perhaps we will have an opportunity to meet in the future.

If you are ever in North Eastern USA :)



BTW My family and I spent several days with Stan Henning and his lovely wife when we were in Hawaii and I understand he is doing a joint book review for mine and Brian Kennedy's Jingwu book. I trust it will be unbiased as Stan is a real scholar who is not afraid to go against popular opinion.

Continued success with your training.

Dennis

I look forward to it

[bawang]

If you have books to recommend then state them.

Without you specifying titles or location; you are just babbling.

Put them up, or shut up.

i dont learn kung fu from a fukin book.

[William123]

“It is rumored that Yue Fei’s Xingyi fist book (a secret text) was developed by Da Mo while he was staying at Song Shan [Song Mountain]. He developed this system for conditioning the body.” Preface xxix
This gives a clear reference to Hsing-i’s Buddhist origin.

Hello all,
I came across this post and thought I should say something as I am interested in CMA. There is enough scholarship in English on Shaolin martial arts (I would recommend FoilingFist to spend more time reading) to avoid such a rookie mistake.

Neither Meir Shahar nor Stanley Henning’s research conclude that Buddhism had anything to do with Xingyi Quan; some Buddhist monks did participate in warfare (martial arts were practice throughout Chinese society at large), as can be found in the Shaolin Si Bei (translated by Tonami Mamoru) and the accounts on the battles against the Japanese/Chinese pirates during the Ming. Some of the sources still extant that talk about of Shaolin martial arts are: Qi Jiguang’s Jixiao Xinshu, the manual only lists the Shaolin staff along with other armed and unarmed styles of the time; none of which is assigned to Shaolin. Cheng Zonyou’s Shaolin staff manual does not discuss empty hand fighting, nor links their staff techniques to Da Mo (instead it credits Jinnaluo both in an illustration at the beginning of the manual as well as in the introduction). Qi’s and Cheng’s manuals were included in the Wubei Zhi by Mao Yuanji as well as in Cheng Zi Yi’s Wu Bei Yaolue Xuan, sort of word of mouth.

As for the books, I would definetely reccomend:

1. The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese army by Dennis Rovere is an excellent book
2. "The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts", (Honolulu: The University of Hawai'i Press, 2008).
3. The translations by Jack Chen on weapons manuals: http://www.chineselongsword.com/translation.shtml
4. The Shaolin Monastery stele on Mount Song / by Tonami Mamoru ; translated and annotated by P.A. Herbert ; edited by Antonino Forte
5. Stanley Henning articles: http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/index.html
6. Kang Gewu's Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts

Cheers,

[MightyB]

Some of my favorite books are by the writer and illustrator duo Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. I love the illustrations. Oscar Ratti was the man.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_at_ep_srch?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=Oscar%20Ratti

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some of my favorite books are by the writer and illustrator duo Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. I love the illustrations. Oscar Ratti was the man.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_at_ep_srch?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=Oscar%20Ratti

I have their "secrets of the samurai" and "Aikido and the dynamic sphere".
Good stuff.

[Foiling Fist]

i dont learn kung fu from a fukin book.

Your point is well taken.

I would not learn to swim from a book only, either.

[Foiling Fist]

Regarding:
'Quote:
“It is rumored that Yue Fei’s Xingyi fist book (a secret text) was developed by Da Mo while he was staying at Song Shan [Song Mountain]. He developed this system for conditioning the body.” Preface xxix
This gives a clear reference to Hsing-i’s Buddhist origin.

Hello all,
I came across this post and thought I should say something as I am interested in CMA. There is enough scholarship in English on Shaolin martial arts (I would recommend FoilingFist to spend more time reading) to avoid such a rookie mistake. '

This is written Rovere's book, it mis a direct quote. Why babble to me about it? Talk to the author.

"It is rumored that Yue Fei’s Xingyi fist book (a secret text) was developed by Da Mo while he was staying at Song Shan [Song Mountain]. He developed this system for conditioning the body.”
Preface xxix

It appears that you lack any training in literature, citing or referencing.
You can get help for this online at Wikipedia under citing.

[Foiling Fist]

For what I think about Buddhist Qigong, as opposed to the topic, the books view on it
see: http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1142103#post1142103

[rovere]

The quote William 123 is referring to was written by Huang and translated - not a comment of mine (Dennis Rovere).

Your comment to William 123 re: citing also makes no sense - citation is not needed if he has your comment in quotes; so what are you talking about?

For a pseudo scholar you aren't too informed

[William123]

FoilingFist,

It was you, not Mr. Rovere, who concluded from Huang Bonian's comment, that

This gives a clear reference to Hsing-i’s Buddhist origin.

Buddhism or Yue Fei's contributions to XYQ has never been proven. How can you say that it is clear if you obviously have not done any real research on the topic? Mr. Rovere's book is a direct translation of Huang's manual in case you missed the point again...

William

[Drake]

I love where this thread is headed.

[ghostexorcist]

FoilingFist,

It was you, not Mr. Rovere, who concluded from Huang Bonian's comment, that


Buddhism or Yue Fei's contributions to XYQ has never been proven. How can you say that it is clear if you obviously have not done any real research on the topic? Mr. Rovere's book is a direct translation of Huang's manual in case you missed the point again...

William

What you say about Yue Fei is correct. Another thing that should be pointed out to FoilingFist is that Yue Fei wasn't a Buddhist, but an adherent of Confucianism. He sacrificed meat and wine and fired off arrows at the tomb of his archery teacher Zhou Tong, who was not a Shaolin monk as some legends state. Upon the death of his father, he left the military in accordance with the Confucian three year morning period (which he had to cut short). Then there was the whole endless loyalty to the state thing too. Most importantly, Yue Fei never wrote such a book. The writings that his grandson, the historian Yue ke, collected comprised mainly correspondences with the court (one of these was so heated that it actually got him demoted). Yue's connection to Damo actually comes from the forged 17th century Yijin Jing manual. Another example of literature being attributed to him is the famous "River Washed in Red" poem. It was most likely written in the early 16th century and posthumously attributed to him.

Mr. Rovere, your book sounds interesting. I may just have to add it to my library!

[rovere]

The reference to Da Mo in the book is a direct translation of Huang Bo Nien's comment - not my interpretation or comment. Specifically it says "It is rumored that Yueh Fei's xingyi fist book (a secret text) by Da Mo... ". It also goes on to say that "even though one cannot clearly determine its origin...".

This is a typical early 20th century writing technique and could be connected to the "law of folklore" in cultural anthropology. The purpose here is to make an historical connection with ancient history or a personage of historical significance. Huang also gives himself a 'way out' (i.e., 'rumored' & 'cannot clearly determine...' in case historical research brings to light new information.)

I also agree that Yueh Fei was a Confucian

[Foiling Fist]

I think you missed the point(s):(:

"Although knowledge in book appears sound, not all of the example photos are. On page 17, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with what appears to the author Dennis Rovere; Leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners."

To respond: If you read the text and the captions: I am not illustrating a xingyi punch but rather showing how the body has to absorb or can redirect the force using the half turn position. the 45 degree angle of the torso lets the strike aimed at the centre line simply slide past. If you look at the section on peng quan my position is not leaning nor is my head extended.
... blah blah
.:D

****
On page 17, Figure 2-4b, does have a caption, but it clearly shows Rovere leaning forward, his nose is past his hips on a vertical axis line up, this is a mistake for any martial move in Hsing-i. Take a draftsman's right angle, for yourself; and you will see he is leaning forward.

It is real man, that can admit his mistakes and learn from them. A Prima Donna never admits any mistakes.

What is done in ‘section on peng quan’ is another page, and does not deal with the leaning on page 17.

[Foiling Fist]

The passage written in YOUR book, cites Da Mo, in Huang's article, without reservation.

Any author's differences are put in footnotes, appendixes, or subsequent releases.

What else in your book do you print that you do not agree with.

Why should the reader play Russian Roulette with what an author presents, unqualified?

What other sources that you use in your book, will you later abandon and belittle?
****

The quote William 123 is referring to was written by Huang and translated - not a comment of mine (Dennis Rovere).
...Blah blah...

[rovere]

On the page that I am leaning forward, I am the one throwing the punch and the other fellow has turned his body - which has caused me to lurch forward as the punch is redirected. This was done at full speed with the digital camera on burst - then we pick the best photos to illustrate the point - which is the 45 degree angle of the chest that allows the blow to glance by. Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.

As for xue sheng, he and I are not acquainted; but he certainly has more manners than you.

[rovere]

You mentioned I have posted on 3 other forums with xue sheng? Not true. I did comment on one other forum though.

Also you keep referring to Huang's article. It was, if I recall the foreward he wrote to his own book. Since the purpose of the book I did is different than what you think it should be, I am not obligated to comment on his historical interpretation. If it was a literary discussion then I may be inclined to do so.

My point was to translate and then demonstrate applications that he discusses but does not show. I also demonstrate how some of the techniques were taught at the military academy. Since you are obviously not an academic by any stretch of the imagination,:D I find it interesting that you can only bolster your own 'expertise by 'nit picking' the works of others. Yes, I see you have reviewed your own book and deemed it a quality production but realistically I don't think you have anything to offer in the way of insight or historical research or ...

I think I have said enough on the matter because you really are thick, so any more comments on my part are pointless. BTW do you even do xingyi - since the lineages you have aren't too clear? At least the ROC and Chinese military (ROC & PRC) recognize my background - and that is documented; so maybe I am a prima donna - with 40 years of training and teaching experience.

[rovere]

"Hey David
Thanks for the warm welcome.

I thought I would have more time since I retired but between the academic lecturing and expert witness work, I seem to be more busy than before. It's nice someone remembers me.

FYI I am having a xingyi article published in the Journal of Chinese Martial Studies (Nov./Dec.) - one that departs from the 'normal fare'.

I hope all is well with you.

Dennis"

The quote you attributed to xue sheng was actually directed to David Jameson, who I do know as he has helped me in the past getting books I needed for research. You must be or have gone to school with foiling fist/Jade Dragon. :D

[Foiling Fist]

On page 17, Figure 2-4B, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with Dennis Rovere, who is leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. This is not in the photos of the old time practitioners.

Leaning forward is a mistake for any reason unless you are a Western Boxer. To lean torso forward to cause a blow to glance is slower than the striking arm or foot. Leaning forces a commitment to forward movement, which can be lead to throw one off balance. It is a basic of all Chinese Internal Martial Arts.


****

On the page that I am leaning forward, I am the one throwing the punch and the other fellow has turned his body - which has caused me to lurch forward as the punch is redirected. This was done at full speed with the digital camera on burst - then we pick the best photos to illustrate the point - which is the 45 degree angle of the chest that allows the blow to glance by. Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.

As for xue sheng, he and I are not acquainted; but he certainly has more manners than you.

[Foiling Fist]

Dennis Rover ‘is the first non-Asian to receive special recognition as a martial arts instructor from the government of the People’s Republic of China’, page 144. Why would they recognize him if he was not practical? The People’s Republic of China has not taught this Hsing-i to their military for decades, so they give up some de-clawed and outdated methods to China’s main military competition; America/Great Britain.

Rovere was taught by Colonel of the Central Military Academy at Nanjing; who should have been the one posing for the photos to insure quality. This might have been the best for the West in 1974; but it is not now. Perhaps most westerners will never understand the deeper aspects of Hsing-i; if that is the case; the maybe this Reader’s Digest version is for them.

Why would one train from a Taiwanese in an enemies (Red Army) martial art? Why not go to the Peoples Republic of China?


Blah, Blah...

My point was to translate and then demonstrate applications that he discusses but does not show. I also demonstrate how some of the techniques were taught at the military academy. Since you are obviously not an academic by any stretch of the imagination,:D I find it interesting that you can only bolster your own 'expertise by 'nit picking' the works of others. Yes, I see you have reviewed your own book and deemed it a quality production but realistically I don't think you have anything to offer in the way of insight or historical research or ...

Blah, Blah...

I am a prima donna ...

****

[Foiling Fist]

HSING YI SCHOOL LINEAGE

• Ji Long Feng
• Cao Ji Wu
• Dai Ling Bang
• Li Nen Ran
• Kuo Yun Shen & Li Kui Yuan
• Sun Lu Tang
• Kuo Yu Chang
• Yim Shan Wu
• Wong Jack Man

There are three basic branches of Hsing Yi: Honan, Hupei and Shanxi. Sun Lu Tang learned Hupei

(Hubei) branch then added his theories and modified the sets so it is like a sub-branch of Hupei. The elements are fundamentally the same.



Blah, Blah ...
I think I have said enough on the matter because you really are thick, so any more comments on my part are pointless. BTW do you even do xingyi - since the lineages you have aren't too clear? At least the ROC and Chinese military (ROC & PRC) recognize my background - and that is documented; so maybe I am a prima donna - with 40 years of training and teaching experience.

****
I have been training formally since 1971, unofficially since 1968.

[Foiling Fist]

I see major discrepancies in Rovere’s posed photographs; between the illustrations that are in the background of his poses, in classic Hsing-I fundamentals, and universal martial concepts.

On page eighteen, Rovere writes:
“If your weight is back-weighted, basic bio-mechanics will show that you will be prevented from delivering all of your force into the target.

Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

Having your stance back-weighted also leads to another problem, namely, a tendency to straighten the front leg. Any low kick, such as a Xingyi horse kick targeting the straightened knee, would easily cause it to hyperflex, severely damaging it.”

When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends there time on forms/Katas does not. When you advance, your training prevents this.

A major foundation of Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts is the stance concept of having either leg being empty or full. This is not weight, although sometimes they are the same. This is fullness of Qi, stance rooting and a centering of the driving energy.
This is the generator of the wave flow force, using the whole body weight being directed into the strike. Kinematics deal s with this somewhat, not biomechanics.

“Sung Shi-Jung
…Therefore, in Hsing-I never equally share the weight on your two feet.”
Hsing-I, Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, by Robert W. Smith, page 98.

Also see: http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62321
****
[QUOTE=rovere;1145342]
Blah, Blah,
...
Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.
...
[QUOTE]

[Foiling Fist]

In looking at Rovere’s photos; and comparing them with the background older photos: the saber has the most obvious differences and discrepancies with the older photos and illustrations.

All saber photos show Rovere with a higher, non rooted stance; without sinking! It is like looking at a boat or truck that is empty compared to one that is full loaded.

When Rover holds the Hsing-I Saber,
1) overhead; he extends his arms out more in front;
a) it relies more on the arms than the stance and body centering and
b) requires more forward momentum or arm strength for power;

2) when at rest and chambered: the saber is held further from a one’s lower Dan Tien at the rest/prone position; as illustrated in background picture.

Holding the saber higher may have some practicality for running or marching drills, but still lacks the power. Not having the saber swing all the way down and back to a position closer to the Lower Dan Tien; constricts the power of the swing, and looses the benefits of rooting and Qi focusing through one’s center.



****



Blah, Blah ...

Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.

As for xue sheng, he and I are not acquainted; but he certainly has more manners than you.

[Foiling Fist]

On page 19, Figure 2-5A; Rovere has his front leg straight and bent in ward; this is not a San Ti stance. This is very susceptible to a break with a quick snap kick.

There are two universal defense against kicks to the knee:
1) angling the knee forward, so the kick gets hit by the front striking area of the knee, rather than the more flexible joint;

2) when in a Cat Stance, T-Stance or San-Ti; the lesser weight of the front foot is shifted backward toward rear leg, and
a) the front leg evades the kick by repositioning or
b) the front leg’s knee is repositioned to hit attacker with knee or shin strike.

When Rovere talks about attacks to the front leg, he uses:

1) the even weightedness of the stance to supposedly make front leg repositioning easier, and

2) and the front leg’s toes being bent slightly inward, to make breaking of the knee more difficult.



****


Blah, Blah...

I find it interesting that you can only bolster your own 'expertise by 'nit picking' the works of others. Yes, I see you have reviewed your own book and deemed it a quality production but realistically I don't think you have anything to offer in the way of insight or historical research or ...

I think I have said enough on the matter because you really are thick, so any more comments on my part are pointless. BTW do you even do xingyi - since the lineages you have aren't too clear? At least the ROC and Chinese military (ROC & PRC) recognize my background - and that is documented; so maybe I am a prima donna - with 40 years of training and teaching experience.

[rovere]

since you obviously can't read and quote out of context.

Special Recognition from the Government of the Republic of China - not as you quoted People's Republic of China. So your whole rant about PRC and outdated xingyi etc., etc., is pointless.

You mention the date 1974 I assume that you are referring to when I received my instructor's certification. My teacher was instructor at the Central Military Academy in the 1930's and had passed away before the book was written. Since you are an expert in Chinese history and martial arts (and I assume you can read Chinese) you can look up the third graduating class at Whampoa and find his information. The information is readily available

The recognition from the Chinese militaries is for modern training with several of their units - of course you missed that point too.

Thats a lot of names... Are you certified to teach by all those instructors? Or any instructor? Or just put the names out?

Also, I see you side step all the questions asked you including your lack of academic credentials. And we could if I had the time debate mechanical efficiency since I have professional qualifications to do so. 5 degree toe in with knee forward makes the knee stable and not susceptible to breaking. (Have someone read and explain the instructions in the book since you obviously can't do so clearly on your own and you will see that I am correct.)

Also I was an architect for 30 years and have never heard the term draughtman's right angle - nor have any of my colleagues - is this another pseudo intellectual comment to portray yourself as smarter than you are? If so, you failed miserably once again.

But enough from me I have more important things to do and gain nothing from this discourse other than lost time.

You are certainly the undisputed king of internet xingyi, so I bow to your majestic whatever..

Continued success with your book, I see you gave yourself a great review. Maybe I'll get a chance to review it (NOT)

[Shǎguā]

Foiling Fist's envious game
Is to Destroy Rovere's book fame
And have us want what all plants crave;
His rotten brand of Burma Shave

[William123]

All saber photos show Rovere with a higher, non rooted stance; without sinking! It is like looking at a boat or truck that is empty compared to one that is full loaded.

When Rover holds the Hsing-I Saber,
1) overhead; he extends his arms out more in front;
a) it relies more on the arms than the stance and body centering and
b) requires more forward momentum or arm strength for power;

2) when at rest and chambered: the saber is held further from a one’s lower Dan Tien at the rest/prone position; as illustrated in background picture.

Holding the saber higher may have some practicality for running or marching drills, but still lacks the power. Not having the saber swing all the way down and back to a position closer to the Lower Dan Tien; constricts the power of the swing, and looses the benefits of rooting and Qi focusing through one’s center.



Based on my research on republican era publications, Huang Bo Nien's book is the only one that deals with the use of the western saber in xingyiquan. Mr. Rovere's translation is not only very informative and unique, based on first hand knowledge from the experiences of his teacher Colonel Chang who taught at the Military Academy. You must live in lala land, dreaming on being a military "expert' in this field to comment about Mr. Rovere's book. :rolleyes:

Your teacher did not attend nor taught at the Military Academy, so how are you supporting your arguments? Based on pictures that have already been explained to you, merely nitpicking what you thing is wrong based on your limited knowledge? I also looked at your website and saw no academic qualifications in any field. How can you pretend to lecture Mr. Rovere who has Bachelor’s degrees in Archeology (bone oracles), Architecture and a Masters degree? Combined with his experience in training the Canadian armed forces and others in these methods to name just a few? You are really delusional

William

[William123]

Rovere's claim of nit-picking is unsubstantiated and appears to be related to the character flaw of denial, since it has not been responded to.

And you sure have responded about your qualifications, your own book "review" or your expertise in miltary xingyiquan...

[Foiling Fist]

On page 17, Figure 2-4B, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with Dennis Rovere, who is leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. This is not in the photos of the old time practitioners.

Rovere:

“To respond: If you read the text and the captions: I am not illustrating a xingyi punch but rather showing how the body has to absorb or can redirect the force using the half turn position. the 45 degree angle of the torso lets the strike aimed at the centre line simply slide past.”

“On the page that I am leaning forward, I am the one throwing the punch and the other fellow has turned his body - which has caused me to lurch forward as the punch is redirected. This was done at full speed with the digital camera on burst - then we pick the best photos to illustrate the point - which is the 45 degree angle of the chest that allows the blow to glance by.”

Hsing-I True Master

“When you are upright and your body is harmonious, the ch’i circulates everywhere. You should never incline forward or backward, or left or right: you must always keep your balance and be centered.”

T’ien Ching-Chieh, Hsing-i Chinese Mind-Boxing, by Robert Smith, page 105.

[Foiling Fist]

When stepping forward, the front foot points forward, or outward.

Turning the front foot inward, will require un-weighting and turning foot before stepping; a mistake.

A pigeon-toed martial artist?
****


5 degree toe in with knee forward makes the knee stable and not susceptible to breaking.
Blah, Blah.

[Drake]

Dude, you are so weird.

[Xue Sheng]

Dang the things I miss when I don’t often check a site


You mentioned I have posted on 3 other forums with xue sheng? Not true. I did comment on one other forum though.


Yup and it was not with me as much as just happened to be in the same thread that Foiling Fist was also in which was about your book...only Foiling fist was under a different name there ;). Other than that there is no association, I do however like your book Mr Rovere, but I have already said that.

For some reason Foiling Fist, even under his other name, is obsessed with me, don't know why....could be that nagging question I asked that Foiling Fist that he has never answered.

Bottom-line there is no arguing with him and no way of changing his mind…. no matter how much proof you provide to the contrary he will be convinced he is right even when he is ever so wrong….. best to let him tilt at windmills and not give him soapbox to stand on....basically don't feed the trolls

And now foiling fist will unleash a tirade in my direction....

[Drake]

Still doesn't explain what a DRAUGHTMAN'S right angle is...

http://www.recoverygraphics.com/albums/Funny_2/StalkerCat~0.jpg

[rovere]

that's not a Draughtman's Right Angle like you so incorrectly stated. ;) Its's a right angle triangle (and not all of them are transparent or UNUSED).

So what IS the draughtsman's right angle you are referring to? :rolleyes: That's the picture I'd like to see

[Fa Xing]

When stepping forward, the front foot points forward, or outward.

Turning the front foot inward, will require un-weighting and turning foot before stepping; a mistake.

A pigeon-toed martial artist?
****

My toes are slightly turned inward on my front foot. It helps my knee protect my groin, and if someone's foot is turned outward I will kick their knee.

[rovere]

Since you know so much about Chinese history and literature, I will answer on equal ground:

從你的天馬行空, 扭曲事實, 胡扯的人身攻擊, 我由最初的憤怒到現在明白你其實很可憐。你心中有很多妒忌怨恨而不自知。你很需要幫助。我很同情你。祝你好 運。

[Xue Sheng]

Dang Loon.... you sure have an awful lot of free time on your hands

[David Jamieson]

Ok, I've removed the baiting and insulting posts.
Carry on.

Stay on topic please. Thanks.
dave :)

[Syn7]

Slipping strikes is a valuable tool for any fighter. Staying straight at all times would get rather predictable after awhile doncha think?

I've never heard of a draughtsmans right angle before. Is it any different that everyone elses right angle? lol

[David Jamieson]

It's the same 90 degrees as anywhere else...

[Foiling Fist]

The initial review I gave the book highly recomended it, and only mentioned 2 mistakes, while praising 6 points.

I held back criticism till Rovere could respond directly, and directed further review questions to me, via direct email, rather than grandstanding.

Rovere's chum Xue Sheng was unhappy with this and asked for more.
:)
I have made all crtiticism direclty to Rovere's face, yet he whines.

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

See for yourself, documented at:
http://www.dragonslist.com/community/threads/hsing-i-training-the-xingyi-quan-of-the-chinese-army.23015/

"On the show, viewers were asked to send in postcards describing something that they wanted to see on television, such as the reenactment of William Tell shooting an apple off his son's head. (1950 US national archery champion Stan Overby performed the feat, shooting an apple off his assistant's head.)"

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Asked_for_It

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo
****
The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army, by Dennis Rovere

I do not agree with some parts of the book, yet nevertheless see it overall as a positive step in the right direction of some classical Hsing-i internals fundamentals.

Since there are a number of concepts that were not published before the 2008 copyright; I highly recommend the book; let the reader sort out for themselves what applies and what does not.

I have not finished the book yet; but some things that caught my attention are outlined below.

“It is rumored that Yue Fei’s Xingyi fist book (a secret text) was developed by Da Mo while he was staying at Song Shan [Song Mountain]. He developed this system for conditioning the body.”
Preface xxix

This gives a clear reference to Hsing-i’s Buddhist origin.

A number of good points that until then; had not been explicitly stated were on pages 8-9:

“Left shoulder bends while right shoulder follows the body. This allows strength to reach the hand. …

Left hand drops slightly while right hand stretches with power. …

Like a bow, but not exactly like a bow. …

All of the toes should grab the floor. …

If the position is too low the power will be lost. That is why it is better to be higher.”

These all apply to a scissor stepping a moving root and a firmness that is not externally fixed. This firmness is not rigid but ‘stretches’.

Although knowledge in book appears sound, not all of the example photos are. On page 17, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with what appears to the author Dennis Rovere;

Leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners. JadeDragonAlaska, Sep 29, 2011 #1 .Offline
Joe Was
Zhi Te Fa - BaGua Zhang
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The greatest teacher, traps the student into learning for themselves!
Thanks, for the review! Joe Was, Sep 30, 2011 #2 .Offline
Xue Sheng
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JadeDragonAlaska said: ↑
I have not finished the book yet; .
Book review on an unfinished book..... alrighty then.... thanks Xue Sheng, Oct 1,
Xue Sheng said: ↑
Book review on an unfinished book..... alrighty then.... thanks
I do not see any comment relating to YOUR READING of the book; only campy pouting

[Drake]

Holy hell, FF... if you don't like it, write your own **** book about it. Otherwise, STFU... this is annoying, and I'm not even part of the conversation.

[David Jamieson]

I agree, foiling fist, it's clear that you should simply write a book and express yourself about what you think is what.

Otherwise, your posts have degraded to nothing more than rants and badgering and frankly, they don't make much sense in context and frequently are just too long to read and ranty.

Not to mention, you seem to have problems not haranguing others.

so chill out. ok? thanks.

[Xue Sheng]

Rovere's chum Xue Sheng was unhappy with this and asked for more.


I am going against my better judgment here in response to you but I need to clear something up.

Your initial review was based on a partial read of the book. You yourself stated that on another site and I did not understand how you could actually review a book based on a partial read and the review, if memory serves was not all that favorable.

Second what I asked for was a response to a question that you have yet to respond to that I was trying real hard to let go. "Exactly how long did you train with Wong Jackman?" You see I could also list I trained with Chen Zhenglei and Fumio Demura because I did, but in all honestly it was one seminar so I would not call myself a student of Chen Zhenglei or Fumio Demura nor would I call either my teacher.

As to being Rover's Chum.... well if a couple of posts on a website and a PM or two makes us chums in your world then so be it..... I do like his book however….I also like Di Guoyong’s book and Li Tianji’s too so I guess we are all buddies now...not sure Di Guoyong would agree….. But then, I will admit, after all Dennis Rovere and I are neighbors, I mean we do live right next door to one another....he lives in Canada and I live in the USA.

And why did you pick this book to review…oh wait it mysteriously appears after I posted a favorable post about it on another site...after I finished reading the entire book…. and you posted your review, of your partial read, shortly thereafter on the same site....

And why didn’t you start this on EF….oh wait… they banned you….. why didn’t you continue this on DL…oh wait they banned you….why are you off MT….oh wait you said there were conspiring against you

Now why don't you answer questions and respond to statements put to you instead of going on the attack, pointing fingers and just plain being insulting to cover up for your lack of knowledge and understanding?

And why oh why should anyone provide you with any proof of anything or respond to anything you ask since you never do other than cut and past.

There, I'm done.... I feel better now... have a nice day

[David Jamieson]

Oh hey, the quiet time chair has come open.

Let's stop all the fussing and feuding and get back to discussing and high fiving.

that is all

[Xue Sheng]

OK…back to the original post, sorry about the previous rant


Ok everyone - it's time to list your favorite TCMA books for building a TCMA reference library.

Ground rules: List a MAM link for purchasing the book whenever it's possible because we should be supporting our forum sponsors. If it's not available through MAM, just put the link where we can find it.

Here's one of my favorites: http://www.martialartsmart.com/b-ww005.html
Kung Fu Elements. It's filled with a lot of basic and foundation exercises and philosophies that are good to know and drill. Plus, the Appendix of styles at the end is an awesome reference source.

As for me I would have to say if you are building a reference library I would have to start with

Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior) by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith

Beyond that it becomes fairly style specific, as it applies to the styles I have trained, as far as reference goes


Xingyiquan

-The Xing Yi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting
-Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan by Di Guoyong
-Xingyiquan: theory, applications, fighting tactics and spirit by Shou-Yu Liang
-Hebei Style Five Principles and Seven Words Edited by Jin Yun Ting: Translated by John Groschwitz
-Xing Yi of the Chinese Army by Dennis Rovere
-Li Tianji's The Skill of Xingyiquan by Li Tianji
-Xing Yi Nei Gong by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell
-XingYi Linked Fist by Li Cunyi
-Henan Orthodox Xing Yi Chuan by Pei XiRong & Li Ying-Ang
-XingYi Mu Chuan (Xing Yi Mother Fists) by Jiang Rong-Jiao
-XingYi Zha Shi Chui & Ba Shi Chuan by Jiang Rong-Jiao


Chen Style Taijiquan

-Chen TaijiQuan by Chen Xiao Wang, Feng Zhi Qiang, & Feng Da Biao
-Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword by Chen Zhenglei


Yang Style Tajiquan

-Yang Chen Fu: The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan Translated by Louis Swaim
-Tung Ying Chieh's Red Book
-Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan By Fu Zhongwen, Louis Swaim


Wing Chun

-Wing Chun Kung Fu: Traditional Chinese King Fu for Self-Defense and Health By Ip Chun, Michael Tse


These I have not read but I will be adding them to my library soon
-BaGua LianXi Fa by Jiang Rong Qiao
-WuDang BaGua by Fei YinTao & Fei YuLiang

Heck there are a lot of Baguazhang books here (http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/coll_crandallBG.htm) that I would not mind adding to my library


There are other books I wold recommend for a Martial Arts library but I am not sure they would fall under the heading of reference

[Shǎguā]

I liked the original idea of this thread... ie. building a TCMA Library.

Unfortunately, it seems that Foiling Fist would rather use it as a platform to further his jealous vendetta (as evidenced by his forthcoming post below) against member-authors who have properly edited and coherent texts with actual publishing deals.

News flash, foiling fist: your book is poorly edited, incoherent, and pure vanity on your part.

As for building a TCMA library:

Thunder in the Sky - Thomas Cleary
The inner teachings of Taoism - Thomas Cleary

[David Jamieson]

Foiling Fist - If you cannot contain yourself and hold back from being insulting and baiting there will be repercussions.

Yes, you are the trouble maker in this thread and I don't want to hear protestations.
Play nice or face the consequences. You will need to read the terms and conditions of this site again if you need clarity regarding why your posts were inappropriate and removed.

that's your warning.

[Foiling Fist]

Since false statements about my participation on other sites were left here for some time; I will set the record straight:

I am currently a member at MT.

I was banned at one site for not responding immediately. All business and legal requirements specify a waiting period of one week or 5 working days to respond.
I was banned before given a chance to respond within a reasonable time.

I was not banned but I asked to unsubscribe, and was refused at Emptyflower.

I was not banned but asked to unsubscribe at RumsoakedFist and was refused, administrator said that the only way out was when was inactive for a year.

I demanded to be unsubscribed at Dragonlist, sending numerous emails to administration, and directly to the forum, and was reused. After I had already left they said that they wanted me back in a week, and I refused. When I was gone, they continued to attacking me in the forum, demanding replies from me in my absence.

One bent on obstructing discussions, followed me from emptyflower, to dragonlist, and now became active here.

Those wanting proof can email me privately.

[David Jamieson]

Gonna close this one. Sorry Mighty B.

[GeneChing]

FF was banned this morning. I'm deleting the flame war above, save for the 'Lying and Slanderous Members of other Forums'.

Moving on....

[David Jamieson]

oh, i was gonna do the same thing. Thanks!

[Drake]

Imma need a decent Chinese philosophy book... recommendations?

*lays down Bawang traps*

STAY THE %$#* AWAY, BAWANG. I'M JUST %^#ING CURIOUS.

[David Jamieson]

Imma need a decent Chinese philosophy book... recommendations?

*lays down Bawang traps*

STAY THE %$#* AWAY, BAWANG. I'M JUST %^#ING CURIOUS.

I Ching or Book of Changes
Tao Te Ching or Book of the Way
Analects - Confucius

I personally favour I Ching. It's judgments are quite understandable and applicable.

[Lucas]

in connection to confucius and tao te ching, i always find myself going back and reading my pocket versions of mencius and chuang tzu

im a big fan of thomas cleary's translations across the board.

[wenshu]

Imma need a decent Chinese philosophy book... recommendations?

*lays down Bawang traps*

STAY THE %$#* AWAY, BAWANG. I'M JUST %^#ING CURIOUS.

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300046540

Internet Encyc. of Philosophy entry
http://www.iep.utm.edu/dai-zhen/

Han Fei Zi on the web:

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/saxon/servlet/SaxonServlet?source=xwomen/texts/hanfei.xml&style=xwomen/xsl/dynaxml.xsl&chunk.id=tpage&doc.view=tocc&doc.lang=bilingual

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei

[Hebrew Hammer]

Just finished this book, was pleasantly surprised...main character was an avenging Jewish Doctor (what a concept) of Russian decent, who grew up with a Chinese Nanny who taught him TCMA and Chinese Medicine- A kind of Dexter meets Wudang Mountain. The writing, the characters, the dialogue were all pretty good. You got your Russian Mob...the hot female Swordsmith...lots of revenge, reincarnation, Eastern philosophy...a few good plot twists.

The only detractor for me was some of the fight scenes could have been better thought out...just not as realistic or well thought out for a neurosurgeon. I would imagine he'd be smoother than breaking in the front door killing and maiming with his sword. It was just a minor flaw in an otherwise good novel. Gonna pick up the Quiet Teacher next.

[David Jamieson]

in connection to confucius and tao te ching, i always find myself going back and reading my pocket versions of mencius and chuang tzu

im a big fan of thomas cleary's translations across the board.

I don't mind Cleary. I have a copy of his Taoist I Ching, but since teenager years I've used Richard Wilhelm's english translation of the I Ching.

[Dale Dugas]

I have numerous copies of the Yijing as well as the Materia Medica and other tomes that have been written by various authors.

It is always good to have different copies to get the differences as well as the subtle nuances that authors and translators use.

But then again, I am a total book W H O R E.

[Xue Sheng]

Speaking as a Lying and Slanderous Members of other Forums :D

Chinese philosophy

The Nei-yeh (Inner Cultivation or Inward Training)
Anonymous - Mid 4th Century BCE

And you can get the entire translation for free at the link below
http://www.stillness.com/tao/neiyeh.txt

EDIT

I just remembered these links

Confucianism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/index.htm

Taoism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/index.htm

I Ching
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/index.htm

[jdhowland]

But then again, I am a total book W H O R E.

Ich auch.

I've got hundreds of books on Asian "martial arts" published over the past 95 years or so. Good for historical purposes--and nostalgia, but there is nothing I can recommend as a "must have." Some of the old jujitsu books and police manuals are still worthy. Donn Draeger's trilogy on Japanese Budo and Bujitsu are valuable for general interest. Lee Koon Hung's book on CLF remains the best overview of the style although it is specific to his personal system. A couple of books on Chinese wrestling are very good and could apply to general interest.

One problem is that there simply aren't enough of them. The systems I would most like to read about have nothing in print beyond a couple of slim tomes of taolu demonstrations. This is where the Shaolin and Taijiquan guys have the advantage. Of course, they also have to sift through more garbage.

I really enjoyed Gene's book. It deserves a place on our virtual shelf.

And I'm hoping to see something from Sal.

[William123]

I just finished reading A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592-1598 by Professor Swope, great book.

This is also a good read: Weapons in Ancient China, Yang Hong (Editor)


Cheers